, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Historic Environment (Wales) Bill: Ministerial evidence session
Okay. Thank you for that. Alun.
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Historic Environment (Wales) Bill: Ministerial evidence session
Can I say, our committee was appalled by the idea that every single word within particular provisions are not debated within any Parliament whatsoever, because we love trawling over this? Let me turn to a different aspect here. The Association of Local…
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Historic Environment (Wales) Bill: Ministerial evidence session
Okay. Your argument seems to make good sense there, so—
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Historic Environment (Wales) Bill: Ministerial evidence session
Okay. Thank you very much. Let's turn to one of those areas that always, from a policy perspective, excites a degree of interest, and it's whenever there's a power to enter property, or in this case a power to enter land, under section 152(9). Now, again…
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Historic Environment (Wales) Bill: Ministerial evidence session
I can see, Mr Hughes, you're nodding away there.
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Historic Environment (Wales) Bill: Ministerial evidence session
Okay. Thank you very much. James, back to you.
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Historic Environment (Wales) Bill: Ministerial evidence session
Thank you for that. That's really helpful.
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Historic Environment (Wales) Bill: Ministerial evidence session
I'm taking from that, Mr Hughes, that from a policy and practice perspective, you don't see particular utility within this provision. As the CLA have argued, it hasn't been used. In fact, the use of it could be damaging to conservation and preservation.
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Historic Environment (Wales) Bill: Ministerial evidence session
Okay. Thank you for that. Let me turn to another observation. You were complimentary about the CLA—they did put very detailed submissions in on this. CLA Cymru told us that preservation notices have never been implemented, and they're unlikely to be…
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Historic Environment (Wales) Bill: Ministerial evidence session
Okay. Is there anything that you want to add in terms of that aspect—that previously, at least in principle, it had some discretion around it, but now, within this Bill, it takes away that discretion?
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Historic Environment (Wales) Bill: Ministerial evidence session
Thank you, Alun. Thank you very much. Let me turn for a moment to recovery of costs and compliance with enforcement notices under section 132(5). We've had some exchange of correspondence on this and some answers from you, Counsel General. One of the things…
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Historic Environment (Wales) Bill: Ministerial evidence session
Thank you, James. Alun, to you.
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Historic Environment (Wales) Bill: Ministerial evidence session
That's why we're pushing so hard on this. It's important to get this on record. Thank you very much indeed. James, back to you.
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Historic Environment (Wales) Bill: Ministerial evidence session
So, you're in line with their suggestion that the TAN advice should be clarified to clarify that conservation remains Welsh Government policy, and where the term 'preservation' is used in the legislation, it should be interpreted as not conflicted with that…
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Historic Environment (Wales) Bill: Ministerial evidence session
Could you just give us a flavour of how your discussions with the CLA and Historic Houses Wales have gone on this? Are they reassured by what you are telling us, that this is a matter of interpretation, it does not stop, there is not a clear, defined line…
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Historic Environment (Wales) Bill: Ministerial evidence session
And I wonder, Mr George, if you could draw as well on the comments made by the House of Lords in the South Lakeland case that preservation does allow change. So, over to you for the legally precise interpretation of this.
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Historic Environment (Wales) Bill: Ministerial evidence session
Could I switch to the other end of the table—
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Historic Environment (Wales) Bill: Ministerial evidence session
That's helpful, but just to draw out from you, you are being quite clear in saying that the term 'preservation' does not necessarily mean preserved in aspic. You see an interplay between the terms 'preservation' and 'conservation' in practice.
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Historic Environment (Wales) Bill: Ministerial evidence session
No, it's very important.
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Historic Environment (Wales) Bill: Ministerial evidence session
Okay. So, what is your understanding, in light of this Bill in front of us, of the difference between 'preservation' and 'conservation'? If there is a significant difference between the two terms, why does Welsh Government guidance and policy refer to…
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Historic Environment (Wales) Bill: Ministerial evidence session
Thank you, Alun. Let's turn to the issue of conservation as opposed to preservation, and you've probably seen, I suspect, some of the CLA evidence to us and the concerns that they've raised, and they do describe their objections to this as quite a fundamental…
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Historic Environment (Wales) Bill: Ministerial evidence session
Okay, thank you. Alun, over to you.
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Historic Environment (Wales) Bill: Ministerial evidence session
Okay, thank you. Mr Hughes, give us some reassurance.
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Historic Environment (Wales) Bill: Ministerial evidence session
Okay. That's helpful. Thank you very much. In that letter to you in September, we also suggested that the regulation-making power in section 2(3) was a new power that allowed the Welsh Ministers to apply historic environment law to buildings that could not…
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Historic Environment (Wales) Bill: Ministerial evidence session
Good. Thank you very much. Thanks, James. Before we go to Alun, let me just turn to a couple of questions. Back in our letter to you in September, we asked for further explanation as to the effect of the current provision in the Ancient Monuments and…
