Plenary

The next item is the questions to the Minister for rural affairs, the north, and the Trefnydd, Lesley Griffiths, and the first question is by Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Last month the £20 million expansion of Mona Island Dairy, backed by Welsh Government funding, was announced. The Welsh Government continues to promote the food and drink sector, and producers from Ynys Môn will have the opportunity to take part in our international showcase, Blas Cymru, later this year.

Thank you, Minister. You'll know that I have drawn attention on several occasions to the lack of appropriate property for food production in Ynys Môn. I've pushed for investment of that kind, and I've appreciated meetings with you and officials on this in the past. But we are still seeing company after company having to retrofit business units to make them appropriate for food production.

This is a sector that's very exciting on Ynys Môn. I visited Mona Island Dairy's new factory last week, and I'm very grateful to the Government for the support for that initiative. But let's use this as a springboard for the kind of investment that I'm calling for in premises where we can grow this sector—producing food and generating jobs in a sector that is so exciting in Ynys Môn. I offer again to collaborate with the Government to turn this into a reality.

Diolch. And as you know, we had a brief conversation, I think the last time we met in the Senedd; I'd be very happy to have a further meeting with you. Obviously, the Food Technology Centre in Llangefni is somewhere where we've explored this, and it is absolutely essential that you have the purpose-built units to which you refer, so that we can encourage further innovation. That's a conversation that I will continue to have with all three, actually, of our food technology centres here in Wales.

Diolch. Trade and industry leaders have welcomed the return of freeports to the UK, and food processing, confectionery, alcoholic drinks and textile sectors may stand to gain most. UK trade deals offer a boost to Welsh businesses, where, for example, Anglesey sea salt, Welsh lamb, Conwy mussels and the Vale of Clwyd Denbigh plum are among 15 iconic Welsh products that could be protected in Japan for the first time as part of the UK-Japan trade deal.

The UK Government is establishing 10 or more freeports around the UK, and wants to establish a freeport in each UK nation. This will require a joined-up approach, with businesses, communities, local authorities and the Welsh Government all coming on board. The UK freeport model encompasses a broad set of measures to stimulate economic activity, while creating jobs and having a regenerative effect on ports, local communities and economies. How would you therefore engage with the the Anglesey freeport steering group, with members from Ynys Môn and across north Wales working to develop an Anglesey Holyhead freeport proposal?

Well, at present, no formal offer has been presented to the Welsh Government on a proposed Welsh freeport. But we have been absolutely clear that we cannot accept the proposal that a Welsh freeport would receive just £8 million in financial support while every freeport in England gets £25 million. I'm sure the Member would agree that's completely unacceptable. And Welsh Ministers did write to the UK Treasury, back in February, making that very clear. And we also set out conditions where a joint approach could be taken, but as yet we haven't received a response to that letter. So, it's not possible to take a decision on it unless we have a response from the UK Government.

I'm sure, again, you will agree that the Secretary of State's suggestion that the UK Government might choose to implement a freeport in Wales, without our agreement, represents yet another example of a top-down throwback to pre-devolution economic policy, where the message was, 'In Wales, you'll get what you're given.' And the UK Government need to work with us not against us.

Thank you. We've worked closely with industry stakeholders to identify any potential impacts on the Welsh agricultural sector. This work underpinned our representations to the UK Government, stating any trade deal must not disadvantage Welsh farmers or compromise our high standards.

Thank you for that answer, Minister. The in-principle agreement of a new free trade deal with Australia, announced by the UK Government, fails British farmers in the same way it has failed the British fishing industry. It would allow Australia to increase its beef export to the UK by more than 60 times the 2020 levels in the first year, before any tariffs would kick in. This sets a very dangerous precedent for further trade deals with countries such as the US and Canada. And I know that farmers across the North Wales region that I represent are deeply concerned by this.

The deal also threatens food standards, animal welfare regulation and environmental protections, on top of astronomical food miles, which we should be working to reduce in light of the climate emergency. It is vital that produce from Australia is clearly labelled, so we as consumers can make informed choices about the food we buy and the repercussions. What representations has the Welsh Government made to the UK Government on this matter, calling for protections for Welsh farmers and the industry standards we have at present? Thank you. Diolch.

Thank you. Welsh Government officials have worked very closely with our industry stakeholders and other devolved administrations so that we've been able to assess the potential impacts from all ongoing trade negotiations, and obviously that includes the agreement with Australia. I have to say, the entire five years since the European Union referendum, back in June 2016, we have made these points repeatedly and very clear representations to the UK Government for appropriate agricultural safeguards, so that we don't have that very unlevel playing field going forward. I don't think the UK Government were in any doubt about our view regarding the importance of retaining tariffs and quotas on our very sensitive agricultural goods, such as lamb and beef. I've also repeatedly highlighted to the UK Government how this deal could set a precedent. I think you make a very important point: it's not just about the Australia deal, it's about the other trade deals too.

In relation to your question around standards, again, we don't want our very high standards to be undermined by countries that might not have the same high standards as ours. I attend an inter-ministerial group with the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and other devolved administrations. We've held them probably every six weeks through the last term of Government. The next one now is next Monday—this will be the first one of this term—and we'll be able to reiterate that. If it's taken into account, we will see.

On labelling, again, I think that's really important, because people really understand about provenance now, and they want to know where their food is coming from. So, it's very important that any Australian meat should be clearly labelled at sale, so that people can make those decisions and that it can be distinguished from higher standard produce that will also be on the shelves.

I did find it interesting that, on a recent visit to a farm with the National Farmers Union and a number of farmers, their significant concerns were not trade agreements but actually areas that you, Minister, have control of, such as nitrate vulnerable zones and the growing threat that TB is posing to their livestock and, therefore, their livelihoods. But that aside, in light of the opportunities that this and future trade deals provide, what additional efforts are you making to promote Welsh beef and lamb overseas?

So, the Welsh Government have provided significant funding to Hybu Cig Cymru. We've worked very closely with them to ensure that we are able to promote our beef and lamb right around the world. Clearly, since the COVID-19 pandemic, we haven't been able to undertake the number of trade visits that we would normally do, although we have done some virtual ones. But, hopefully, we'll be able to continue those trade visits going forward, as we're able to travel.

Again, we work very closely with other stakeholders to do that, and we also—. You may have heard me say in an earlier answer to Rhun ap Iorwerth that, later this year, we will be holding the unfortunately postponed Blas Cymru. That attracts literally millions of pounds, and Welsh lamb and Welsh beef will be very prominent there too.

Conservative spokesperson, Samuel Kurtz.

Diolch, Llywydd. Firstly, can I congratulate the Minister on her reappointment, and I look forward to working towards a fairer and prosperous rural Wales? Minister, at an event in Cardiff as part of Seafood Week in 2016, you announced your intention to double sea aquaculture production by 2020. As the 2019 marine plan and the subsequent 2020 report failed to reference this objective, and figures are a year and a half behind publication, has this policy sunk without a trace?

Welcome to Samuel Kurtz on his appointment, and I look forward to you shadowing me. I think, regardless of what Rebecca says, I think this is a very exciting portfolio too and I'm sure you'll enjoy it.

It hasn't; we still have that policy. Clearly, we have had some issues with our seafood exports, particularly you'll be aware of the issues around live bivalve molluscs, and since we left the European Union, the difficulties that we've had. That absolutely is a priority for us at the moment because, literally, the export industry is at a cliff edge. So, we are concentrating on that, but, no, the policy is still there.

Thank you. One issue that does continue to cause stress and anguish for farmers across Wales is bovine TB, an issue that successive Welsh Ministers have failed to really get to grips with. Last week, in responding to a question from my colleague Janet Finch-Saunders, the First Minister laid the blame for the spread of TB at the feet of Welsh farmers, saying,

'the reason why low area statuses have moved up is because of the importation of TB by farmers buying infected cattle and bringing them into the area.'

This statement caused outrage amongst farmers here in Wales, who are doing all that is being asked of them by this Welsh Government to combat bovine TB. You and I both know that a clear pre-movement test is required before cattle can be moved. Yesterday, the First Minister, you and I received a letter from the National Beef Association, who called on the First Minister and the Welsh Government to, I quote:

'brush up on the scientific and proven facts surrounding bovine TB and then apologise to the industry for the damage you have caused by your false statement.'

Minister, will you now either offer this apology to the Welsh agricultural industry, or do you publicly endorse the views that the First Minister stated last week?

I think it was one of the rudest letters I've ever had the misfortune to receive, to be perfectly frank with you. I think what you say is incorrect around statistics. If you look at the trend that's certainly been occurring over the past, I think it's 33 months now, we have seen a decrease in the 12-month total of new herd incidents and we've had a 2 per cent decrease in new incidents in the 12 months to March 2021. And, clearly, the information that we have been given is that the likely causes for the increases in TB in the Conwy valley, Denbighshire and the Pennal areas, which I think are the areas that Janet Finch-Saunders raised with the First Minister, appear to have been driven initially by moves into the area from holdings in higher incidence TB areas, and then subsequently by local movements within that area, particularly within holdings under the same business control.

Thank you, but that just goes to show that the false negatives that come from the current bovine TB skin test show that if movement is being undertaken under the Welsh Government policy that there is a failure of policy here.

It was recently announced, however, that Carmarthenshire County Council spent the grand sum of £136,000 on their Hollywood-esque Carmarthen/Caerfyrddin sign on the side of the eastbound A40 carriageway, with money coming from the Welsh Government's rural development plan. This, coupled with the Wales Audit Office's findings that the Welsh Government had not taken appropriate measures to ensure value for money in the absence of competition, shows that in its current guise the RDP is not fit for purpose. Minister, can you confirm it is the intention of the Welsh Government to commit to a full independent review of the RDP to ensure vanity projects and favouritism no longer cloud the Government's judgment around administering RDP grants?

There are no plans to undertake a further review of the 2014-20 RDP. Officials have acknowledged the approach to testing value for money for a number of the historic RDP projects didn't represent best practice. So, I think there will not be a further review of that.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Cefin Campbell.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. And may I congratulate you too on your reappointment as Minister? And I look forward to developing a constructive relationship with you over the coming years. I too am going to continue the theme of the RDP, if I may? There's been a great deal of coverage over the past few months to fully funding the rural development plan, and that plan, as we all know, is crucially important to rural Wales, supporting farms directly and also in developing economic and environmental projects.

However, there is concern in the sector that the Welsh Government will fail to spend the full budget for this plan by the end of the financial period in 2023. Based on the latest figures published, only a little over 60 per cent of the funding for this programme has been spent to date. If the Government is to spend all of the funding available, namely £838 million by December 2023, then we will need to see a substantial increase in the monthly spend rate from £6 million to £10 million, which is quite a leap. So, what measures does the Welsh Government intend to put in place to ensure that all of this funding is spent in order to support our rural areas? And does the Minister accept that, if the Welsh Government doesn't spend the funding in full, this will give the Westminster Government another excuse to provide less funding for agriculture in Wales in coming years, putting at risk the economic stability and viability of our agricultural industry?

Thank you. And welcome to you to your opposition spokesperson's role, and I very much look forward to working with you too. We do continue to make very good progress in relation to our RDP programme delivery. More than £512 million has already been spent. As you say, there's a further £362 million to be spent over the next three years, and certainly I meet regularly with my officials who monitor the RDP, and at the moment we are very confident that that funding will be spent.

Thank you very much. I hope that you won't be like John Redwood, taking pride in the fact that we would be sending Welsh funding back to the Treasury.

The second question: tree planting on farmland. Another important issue for our rural communities is plans for tree planting on farmland. Recently, I met with representatives from Myddfai Community Council in Carmarthenshire and some local farmers in that area to hear increasing evidence of whole farms, as much as 300 acres, being purchased by rich businesspeople and major international companies for the planting of trees for carbon offsetting. And they gave me examples of farms in Carmarthenshire, Ceredigion and south Powys that have recently been purchased for this end. And it seems that Glastir funding is being used to support these plans. In one case, this had prevented a young farmer, who had intended to return and buy land close to the family farm, and he was prevented from doing that because this farm had been bought for carbon-offsetting purposes.

Now, I am sure you would agree with me that once our family farms are lost and covered in trees, they won't be returned to agricultural usage. And this is a disaster, of course, not just for food production in Wales, but also for the sustainability of our rural communities, as it leads to more rural depopulation and a damaging impact on the sustainability of our rural schools and public services in rural areas too.

Nobody doubts the importance of tree planting in delivering against our environmental policies, but we must do this while safeguarding the viability of our agricultural businesses. So, the question for the Minister is this: do you agree with me that it is entirely absurd that companies and wealthy people from outside of Wales, for example, can get hold of farming support payments through the Glastir scheme to plant trees when that policy should ensure that the funding remains in Wales? And will the Government ensure that it's only active farmers who can access support payments through this scheme and that we cap the percentage of farm acres that can be allocated for tree planting and that planning permission is needed in order to do so? Thank you.

Thank you very much. You raised several important points, with, I think, the first one around a young farmer being unable to either rent or purchase farmland or a farm. And I've done a significant amount of work with young farmers, along with Llyr Huws Gruffydd, when he was in your role, to ensure that they have the opportunity to start their own farm, or, if they can't buy one, then at least rent one. So, I think you raise a really important point. And protecting our farms is something that, obviously, I believe is vital to my role. And going forward, as we develop our agricultural policy, again, you may be aware that the words 'active farmer' appear a lot, if you look at the White Paper that I published back in December, and ensuring that it's active farmers who are rewarded for the work is very high in the priorities there.

Tree planting is clearly very important. If we are going to achieve our carbon emissions ambitions, if we are going to achieve our climate change ambitions, we need to be planting more trees. I've always said—and tree planting now sits within the climate change ministry—when I had responsibility for it, we weren't planting enough trees. So, it is important that we do plant trees, but, obviously, who gets the funding for that is also important.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. I absolutely agree that planting trees is important, but it's the right tree in the right place and for the right reason.

So, my final question—

—in Welsh: clearly, the main focus of the work of Government and the Senedd over the next few years in relation to rural issues will be the introduction of a new agriculture Bill for Wales. The multiple challenges facing rural areas in Wales and the agricultural sector mean that we need to draw a new context for agriculture in Wales and to ensure a far more prosperous future for farming. That has to happen in a way that provides resilience for our family farms and that should be at the heart of the regeneration of the industry. And I'm sure you would agree that we as a Senedd must support Welsh farmers in their aim of being one of the most environmentally sustainable agricultural sectors in the world. But we must also recognise that in order for those farms to be environmentally sustainable, they must also be economically viable and sustainable. Therefore, with the need for time to develop, pilot, model and assess the appropriate impact of the contribution of your proposed plans for the economic, environmental, social and cultural well-being of Wales, does the Minister agree that the basic payment should be safeguarded at current levels—particularly in the context of post-COVID recovery and damaging trade policies imposed by the UK Government, as we've heard mention of already—in order to promote greater economic stability for the industry during this challenging time?

Thank you. You will be aware that we maintained the basic payment scheme payments at the same level for 2021. If I receive the funding that we should receive from the UK Government, we will look to do it for 2022 also. As we develop the sustainable farming scheme that is set out in the White Paper and we bring forward the agricultural Bill, I've made it very clear that we won't introduce the new scheme until it's absolutely ready. So, there won't be any concern about falling through the gaps or anything like that, because I think it's absolutely vital that that scheme is up and running. And we've had two consultations. We've now had the White Paper, so, over three years, we've got significant responses to consultations that we can work on with in-depth analysis continuing at the moment. But I think, to give farmers the certainty that I do think they need in these very uncertain times, so long as we get that same funding from the UK Government, we'll do that for 2022.

We've not made an assessment of the impact of roaming farm animals on animal welfare. Animal owners and keepers have a legal duty to care for the animals for which they are responsible.

Thank you very much, Minister. I would suggest that perhaps the Government do so. Those of us who live and were brought up in the Heads of the Valleys are well used to seeing sheep around our communities as part of the nature of the place. But what we've seen recently is the failure of the local authority in Blaenau Gwent to maintain fences and to maintain the common areas where they have responsibilities, which has meant that we have a significant animal welfare problem within the borough. We had seven animals killed in one accident on the eve of poll in May, and this is exceptionally distressing both for the keepers and the farmers, but also for people who have to witness that. And I think it's important to recognise that there are statutory bodies here with responsibilities, and I would be grateful if the Welsh Government could, first of all, carry out the assessment that I spoke about, and then ensure that local authorities do deliver on their obligations and their responsibilities in these matters.

Thank you, and, as you say, in May this year, unusually high numbers of sheep were reported to be roaming around towns in your constituency. People were obviously concerned about the possibility of accidents being caused, but, of course, for the welfare of the animals themselves, as you say. It's, I think, right to point out that anyone with concerns should contact Blaenau Gwent County Borough Council. The maintenance of boundaries is the responsibility of the landowner, but if fences are deliberately damaged, for instance, that should be reported to the police. You suggest that we need to do some further work with the local authority, and I will commit to doing that, and, obviously, inform the Member when that's been completed.

Minister, animal welfare is a priority for all Members and many people in society. Roaming livestock is an issue, as also are people who are roaming the countryside and the dangers that that poses, both to livestock and that the livestock poses to people, and we've seen some tragic accidents in recent years. Are you aware of schemes that have been undertaken in the south-west of England that have allowed temporary diversions of foot paths to protect ramblers and people who enjoy the countryside, as well as livestock? And if you are aware, then, could I encourage you to have a discussion with the Minister for climate change, who's responsible for public rights of way, to encourage greater take-up of these types of schemes to avoid tragic accidents in the countryside and improve animal welfare?

Thank you. I'm not aware of the schemes—I think you said the south-east of England—but it's certainly something that I will ask officials to look at and to explore to see if there are any lessons we can learn.

Llywydd, I understand that you've given your permission for questions 4, 5 and 8 to be grouped. Animal health and welfare is a priority for the Welsh Government and for the Wales animal health and welfare framework group. The framework group, launched in 2014, sets out our 10-year overarching plan for making improvements in standards of animal health and welfare.

Thank you for that answer, Minister. Since the start of the pandemic, there's been a large increase in pet ownership in Wales. Many of these animals have found their loving, forever homes. However, there is concern from the likes of the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals that the end of the pandemic could be the perfect storm for abandonments. The combination of a surge in spur-of-the-moment pet ownership, the change in people's circumstances and the economic impacts of the pandemic could all hit and lead to a surge in people no longer able to look after their pets. We know this fluctuation exists. Google searches for 'buy a puppy in the UK' quadrupled in the middle of March last year, before doubling again in early May. Then, in November, search terms related to selling puppies and dogs online, such as 'sell puppy' and 'selling a dog' saw spikes on Google.

As the pandemic eases, can the Welsh Government work with charities, such as the RSPCA and Dogs Trust, as well as local authorities, on an information campaign to make sure people are pointed in the right direction for support if they're struggling with their pets, and to highlight the best and safest routes forward so no animal has to suffer through no fault of their own?

Thank you. I think you raise a really important point, and I think many people will be grappling with this issue, perhaps as they go back to work, back to the office or back to their place of employment, because they bought the animal during the COVID pandemic. That change of company throughout the day could cause a big impact on the pet, but also on the owners as well. So, I think they need to plan how they are going to make that transition and being out of the house for long periods of time. Obviously, planning and routine can help animals to adjust to new ways of living. As a Welsh Government, we've always worked closely with the framework group that I mentioned, and also the animal welfare network group we have in Wales, and we've been producing relevant guidance and relevant support for people to be able to do that, and a lot of it is linked to our Welsh Government website, so people can access that very easily.

We've also supported the work of the Pet Advertising Advisory Group. That was set up back in 2001 to combat growing concerns regarding the irresponsible advertising of pets for sale, rehoming and exchange, and, again, that was something that was highlighted to me probably at the beginning of the pandemic as we realised people were indeed buying—we saw a huge increase in the number of people buying dogs, in particular. People really need to think hard about the commitment involved in pet ownership, and it's really important to say—and it's a great opportunity to be able to say this again—a new pet should be sourced responsibly.

I'm sure I'm not the only Member with four-legged friends. I have a Jack Russell named Poppy and a cat named Binx. I couldn't imagine my life without them. They're not just pets, they're part of the family. That isn't to say they always behave, and, as difficult as they can be at times, I would be horrified if they were ever harmed or stolen. In my Rhondda constituency, we've sadly seen a rise in the number of dog thefts and attempted dog thefts. South Wales Police are doing all they can do recover stolen dogs. How can the Welsh Government support the police to prevent dog thefts from happening in the future?

I absolutely agree with you—I firmly believe pets enhance family life, and we have certainly seen, unfortunately, an increase particularly in dog thefts over the past few years. It's a criminal offence under the Theft Act 1968, which is, obviously, a reserved piece of legislation, and the maximum penalty is seven years' imprisonment. Officials right across the UK have been considering carefully how we can best tackle pet theft, and DEFRA, the Home Office and the Ministry of Justice have come together jointly in the UK Government and brought forward a taskforce. That was announced, I think, literally just after, or even on the day of, our election in May, and that's going to look at information that all police forces hold in relation to this matter. They're going to report on their findings very soon, actually, over the summer recess.

Here in Wales, I'm just about to announce—well, I think I may have just announced—that next week I'm to meet our Wales rural and wildlife crime co-ordinator. We've got some fantastic rural crime teams here in Wales; I think they're the envy of the England police forces. So, what I've done is agreed to fund a 12-month trial for this co-ordinator—commissioner, actually—and he is going to lead and facilitate effective liaison and co-ordination with the four police forces here in Wales. So, I'm looking forward to meeting him next week. I think it's a very exciting role, going forward.

Minister, I was really pleased to see in the programme for government a reference to banning the use of snares, an issue that I've campaigned on since I was first elected in 2016. Snares, as we know, cause indiscriminate suffering to pets, farm animals and protected species alike. Are you able to provide any further details as to when Welsh Government will be bringing forward its proposals?

I'm not able to give you a timeline for it. Obviously, it's in our programme for government, so it will be during this Senedd term, but it's something that I'm seeking to do at the first possible opportunity. I know it's something that you feel very passionately about, so I was very pleased it was in the programme for government. You'll be aware that we had plans around this in the White Paper—the agriculture White Paper that I mentioned—I published back in December. So, it will certainly be very good to bring forward that ban.

Minister, the UK Conservative Government has already begun the process in Parliament of banning primates being kept as pets in all except very specific circumstances. RSPCA Wales has expressed concern that the Welsh Government has indicated it will not bring forward a similar ban here in Wales. Minister, I'd like to ask you: could you clarify your policy on keeping primates as pets? If you do not introduce a ban in Wales, what action will you take to address the welfare issue associated with keeping primates in unsuitable domestic environments?

Thank you. No person may keep any dangerous wild animal, and that includes many primates, without first obtaining a licence from their local authority under the Dangerous Wild Animals Act 1976. As part of that, local authorities would, obviously, inspect premises and consider welfare requirements. We are working with Animal Welfare Network Wales to draft a new code of practice here in Wales around primates, which does highlight their complex needs. Unfortunately, the work was paused last summer, I think, because of the COVID-19 pandemic. The Animal Welfare (Kept Animals) Bill, which is a UK Government Bill, will prohibit the keeping, breeding, sale and transfer of primates in England without a specific primate licence. We are working closely with the UK Government so that we can extend that provision here in Wales. I laid a legislative consent memorandum just this week in relation to that.

Excuse my slightly grainy image. I hope it doesn't affect the sound quality at all. Minister, I welcome moves by your Government to improve animal health and welfare. We must do all we can to ensure we maintain the highest welfare standards here in Wales. One of my constituents in the Vale of Clwyd has raised concerns surrounding the keeping of livestock in a residential setting. Raising and keeping livestock surely requires specialist skills and knowledge beyond that needed to keep companion animals such as dogs or cats. Those who keep livestock for a living are subject to animal welfare checks and a whole raft of requirements relating to animal health and welfare. Will your Government ensure that those people who keep livestock in residential areas are subject to the same rigorous animal welfare requirements as farmers?

It is certainly the responsibility of the owner to ensure the health and welfare of the animal that they have in their keeping. We would expect people to absolutely recognise that and behave in the same way.

Minister, the Welsh Government's programme for government commits to requiring slaughterhouses in Wales to have CCTV, a move that all parties have long supported and raised with you in this Chamber for several years now. The use of this technology has long been viewed as an important step in ensuring that we have the very highest levels of protection on animal welfare in Wales. Therefore, can you tell us why CCTV in slaughterhouses isn't already mandatory, and given the clear political will from all sides, why hasn't this issue already been resolved by the Welsh Government?

The Member will be aware of the significant work that was undertaken in the previous Senedd term around CCTV. We had a voluntary approach where we provided significant funding for the smaller slaughterhouses. All the larger slaughterhouses in Wales do have CCTV and they adhere to a protocol jointly developed and agreed with the Food Standards Agency. We provided funding for the smaller ones to help purchase CCTV. CCTV cannot replace direct oversight by slaughterhouse management; I think that's really important to bear in mind—or official veterinarians, particularly in small premises. I think that's really important. But we have made a commitment to require CCTV in all slaughterhouses during this Government's term.

Question 6 is next, therefore. Sioned Williams.

Diolch. The rural development programme continues to deliver across the whole of Wales, including in south-west Wales. Projects are being delivered that are benefitting our natural environment, businesses and rural communities throughout the country.

Thank you, Minister. Despite the fact that the rural development programme has run for a number of years, with the aim of promoting economic growth and sustainable growth in rural areas, we still see income levels in some of our rural areas of South Wales West being stubbornly low. Of course, programmes such as the Swansea bay city deal have the potential to support growth in rural areas, with a focus on better provision digitally that could lead to economic development, but rural poverty is multifaceted and it's something that we have to get to grips with across Government. The lack of public transport in particular arises time and time again as a factor that impacts economic opportunities and quality of life. Cuts to bus services in particular, as a result of the pressure on local government budgets and COVID, are a major problem. So, I'd like to ask you what discussions you are having at the moment with your fellow Ministers, particularly the Ministers for the economy and social justice, with regard to developing an economic and poverty eradication strategy tailored to rural communities over the coming years. Thank you.

I haven't had any discussions with the two Ministers that you referred to in the past month or so of the new Government, but clearly, having been in the portfolio in the previous term, I've had those discussions about ensuring our rural areas get the funding that they require, because obviously rural areas do have different requirements and needs. You mentioned public transport, for instance; certainly, those discussions have taken place before.

In relation to the rural development programme, it's really important that the funded projects do bring the necessary benefits to the areas that they are there for and that those programmes and projects are monitored. There are some significant appraisals under way in your region at the moment in relation to the RDP projects there. COVID recovery is obviously an area where we are looking to ensure that rural areas don't get left behind. And there are also the rural business investment schemes for food and non-agricultural projects, some of which you've just referred to.

One of the aims of the rural development programme is to promote strong, sustainable economic growth in Wales. For many farms and rural businesses, this is something that can be achieved by diversification of their businesses. Some in my region, particularly in Gower, have looked to diversify by going into tourism, but many have told me it's quite a long, drawn-out and bureaucratic process. Can I ask the Minister to outline the support made available by Welsh Government for other businesses looking to do the same in the future?

It surprises me that you say that around diversification into tourism, because I think that is an area where we've seen some significant diversification. A lot of the applications we've had in relation to diversification lately have been in relation to energy, for instance—people would like to put maybe one windmill on their farm to make sure that they have energy. So, it surprises me that you say that they're overly bureaucratic, because I think tourism is the main area where that diversification has already taken place. But there are a variety of schemes that farmers can apply for. And also Farming Connect, which is obviously unique to Wales, provides a service where, if any farmer wants to discuss diversification of any type, they're able to ring there for support and specialist advice.

We get very little of the benefit of food production beyond the sale of the raw materials. Does the Minister agree with me that we need to develop the food processing industry in Wales, and will the Minister look at the Felindre site in my colleague Rebecca Evans's constituency as a location for food processing by a large number of companies so that the profit made from food processing is made in Wales, not exported out?

I think it's very important that we do enlarge the food processing sector that we have here. It's really important for the Welsh economy, as you say. I'd certainly be very happy to look in broad terms at what we can do in relation to that at Felindre.

When I relaunched the TB eradication programme in 2017, I committed to updating Members of the Senedd annually. The latest written statement I issued was in November 2020 and I will be releasing the next statement on the progress of our TB eradication programme towards the end of this year.

Thank you for your answer, Minister. I'd like to ask you about your tests and testing strategy. As it stands now, some TB-infected cattle are not being detected by Welsh Government's own tests, and this clearly causes great frustration to the farming industry when the First Minister himself tries to heap blame on farmers, as was outlined earlier in this session by my colleague Samuel Kurtz. We're not going to solve the problems if Welsh Government's own tests fail to pick up TB-infected cattle. So, can I ask, Minister, do you recognise this issue? Why aren't TB-infected cattle being detected by the Welsh Government's very own tests, and what are the Welsh Government doing to improve the false negatives to stop the spread of TB?

I don't think that was what the First Minister did at all. You will have heard me say in my earlier answer to Samuel that what he was referring to was the information that we've been given around the likely causes for increases in the low-incidence TB area. I think M. bovis is a very difficult organism to detect. There is no single test or combination of tests available that has a 100 per cent specificity, that doesn't detect any false positives and has a 100 per cent sensitivity. They can't detect all TB-infected animals. So, we use additional blood tests, for instance, such as the interferon gamma test and the IDEXX antibody test, and we use severe interpretation of the skin test so that the risk of missing infected cattle is minimised. That's the approach that we take in the low and intermediate TB areas of Wales.

I share the concern of everybody here when farms have an outbreak of TB. We know that it's cruel, that it's traumatic, and it's a disease that we want to eradicate. I've only ever disagreed with Senedd Members about culling badgers; many badgers have been culled over many decades, and yet TB still remains. We have, however, Minister, made good progress and there's been a 44 per cent reduction in incidence in the last decade. You mentioned a cattle vaccination programme that was going on—it was a pioneer—and I would like to hear if you've got any update regarding that vaccination programme.

Thank you. Absolutely, it is a very distressing time for farmers. I know how distressing it is when they have a TB breakdown. You'll be aware that we've got those bespoke action plans as well, where we deal with those really difficult breakdowns. You mentioned the field tests that we're carrying out in relation to this vaccine. The aim of the project, once we've had those successful field trials, is to apply to the Veterinary Medicines Directorate so we can get marketing authorisations for both the cattle BCG vaccine and the DIVA skin tests by 2025. I haven't got an update, probably, from the last one I gave, but we are hoping to complete the field trials by the end of 2024. But what we will do is bring forward progress reports as we go over the next two to three years.

I thank the Minister. We will now take a short break to allow for changeovers in the Chamber.

Welcome back. No topical questions were received.

So, item 4 is the 90-second statements. Mike Hedges.

Thank you. This year, Morriston Ladies Choir is celebrating 80 years since its formation, and I’m very proud to be president of the choir.

The choir was formed in 1941 by Miss Lillian Abbott and members of the local first aid defence group. At the time, there were many popular male voice choirs in the area, as there are today, such as the world-famous Morriston Orpheus.

The choir’s current director of music, Anthony Williams, has been with the choir since 1974, and they have been gradually expanding their musical repertoire, from folk songs and hymns to showtunes and pop music.

The choir is based at the Tabernacle Chapel in Morriston. They rehearse in the vestry, and have their concerts in the chapel itself. They have performed with a number of choirs, soloists and military bands. The choir is also known around the globe, having performed at the Parliament buildings in Toronto and Ottawa during their tour of Canada in 1991.

Canada isn’t the only country where the choir has left a mark. They have also performed in Germany, the Netherlands, Spain, Finland, Ireland, Tuscany and Poland, and have performed many concerts in England. Congratulations.

This week marks Armed Forces Week across the United Kingdom, and many of us will be marking Armed Forces Day this Saturday. But today is Reserves Day—a day that we set aside to pay tribute to those who give their spare time to serve as an integral part of the UK's defence capability. More than 2,000 reservists in Wales volunteer to balance their day jobs and family life with a military career and, this year, we have the opportunity to reflect on and give thanks for the incredible role that reservists have played during the COVID-19 pandemic. This work has included supporting our NHS to deliver its world-leading vaccination programme, supporting our testing centres, and helping the Welsh Ambulance Service. So, today, let's take the opportunity to thank reservists and the entire armed forces community in Wales for their work during the past 18 months, and in recognition of their valuable contribution to our nation and the benefits that they bring to their employers, let us do everything that we can to encourage employers across this nation, including the Senedd Commission and the Welsh Government, to adopt policies that support the recruitment of reservists and afford them the flexibility that they need to undertake their vital and important roles. Thank you.

Yesterday afternoon, we learnt of the death of a man who played such a crucial role in the lives of so many of us. David R. Edwards died at 56 years old. Dave formed the band Datblygu when at school in Cardigan in 1982, and the band developed to be one of the most influential in the history of modern Welsh music. He was a composer and a poet, and his poetry was witty, tender, funny and profound. But he wasn't a man of the establishment. Indeed, he would laugh in thinking that we were commemorating him here today. Dave had no time for anyone or any class of people who looked down their noses and judged others.

Dave's lyrics reflected life in Wales, which wasn't reflected in the mass media. He held a mirror up to real life in Wales—the 'Sgymraeg' life of ordinary people—and through his music it meant that we also knew what life was like for the people of Wales. He created a new counter-culture with a sound that was unique to Wales. It wasn't music that was trying to emulate the Anglo-American culture, but a sound that belonged to a particular time and a particular place, all through the medium of Welsh. In telling the story of real Wales, he gave confidence to a generation of Welsh people to get out there and express themselves. Dave inspired a number of musicians and bands, and that developed into 'Cool Cymru', as it was known at the turn of the century. And, of course, he continues to inspire young people today. Yes, the feelings and lives of young people were very important to Dave. Our thanks are great to him. His music will be an everlasting part of the soundtrack of my generation. We think of this very special man's friends and family in their grief today. Thank you, Dave.

The next item is a motion to suspend Standing Orders in order to allow a debate on the next item of business. I call on a member of the Business Committee to formally move the motion. Darren Millar.

I move.

The proposal is to suspend Standing Orders. Does any Member object? I don't see any objections. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motions under Standing Order 16.1 and 16.3 to agree titles and remits to committees. I call a member of the Business Committee to move the motions formally.

I move.

Thank you, Darren. The proposal is to agree the motions. Does any Member object? I see no objections. The motions are therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion to allocate committee chairs to political groups. And I call on a member of the Business Committee to move the motion formally. Darren.

Move.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion to appoint the Senedd Commission. I call on a Member of the Business Committee to move the motion formally. Darren.

I move.

Thank you. The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

The next item is the motion to appoint the Senedd Commission—

Oh, I've done that one. [Laughter.] Just checking.

The next item is a Member debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv). It's a debate on bus services. And I call on Huw Irranca-Davies to move the motion.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. And can I thank the Business Committee for selecting this motion for debate and the many cross-party Members who supported the application too?

Buses and properly integrated public transport are clearly very important to the Senedd and to the constituents we serve. Now, no doubt, today some Members will have stories to tell of our own local services. Some will be of services lost during or even before the pandemic; some will be of creative new ways to provide transport solutions, particularly for people who rely on public and community transport in remote and rural areas. And we will also hear, I hope, of the courage of drivers and of staff who kept essential bus services going during the height of the pandemic and since. These real local and Wales-wide experiences will be good to hear in the Senedd.

But I hope we'll also have time to focus on the way forward for Wales, for every part of Wales, which must involve truly radical reform to and innovation and investment in our buses, scheduled buses and Fflecsi buses and on-demand buses, but also a far greater integration of different types of public and community transport, streamlined timetables and ticketing, a step change in modal shift from individual to communal transport and to active travel, wherever possible, to help to tackle climate change, lessening the need for longer travel too, by creating local communities with jobs and services and retail and opportunities to socialise in easy travelable distance by foot or by bike.

But let us begin with buses, because I suspect that's what many people will want to hear about. I won't be alone in having witnessed many cuts to services over recent years, and the cuts have often fallen hardest on the most remote communities, and often communities with already existing significant disadvantage. The beautiful tops of my valleys—the hilltops in my valleys—they're often former coal-mining communities and social housing estates. They're also often poorly served by shops and health provision and job opportunities and clubs and community centres in which to mix and socialise. They're often where car ownership is lowest and where the residents are often older and less well and less mobile. Yet these are the very communities—so often, the ones where the cuts are seen first. And often those cuts come first as temporary, because of reported problems with navigating narrow streets with parked cars for buses, or damage to buses or anti-social behaviour, or because of the pandemic. But, so often, these cuts become permanent, despite representations from local people and local representatives. Sometimes the cuts, we are told, come because the route just isn't profitable. Yet buses and public transport have a true social and economic purpose. They connect people and communities. Without buses, we have isolated communities and isolated people, with all the ills that that brings for them individually and for society. We cannot reduce buses simply to a transaction of money for a ticket or to cold calculations of short-term profitability on different routes. They are more than that. As Marion and Keith in Caerau said to the BBC last night, they are the lifeline for people to meet their friends, get to the doctor or hospital, get to work and be part of their wider community. Without them, communities are isolated and alone and so are individuals.

So, in this sixth Senedd, we have the opportunity now to do things very differently. Now that we have the powers, we need to restore the public and social purpose to the very heart of all public and community transport, as we've already begun to do with trains. And this means putting people, transport users and locally-elected representatives, back in control of our buses and of the wider oversight of public transport, so that buses and trains and Fflecsi buses and on-demand buses and community transport work effectively together, and where no-one—no-one—is left without being connected to their wider community and the world of work and the world of their friends and of society.

Despite the pandemic, or perhaps because of it, that work has already begun. The bus service agreement of March 2021 has committed over £37 million of funding to continue to support the bus industry in the coming financial year, but this is conditional on, in quotes,

'a fundamental reshaping of local bus services, better meeting the needs of passengers.'

And it also seeks to rebuild patronage post COVID, encouraging increasing numbers to use public transport over time for a wide range of journeys. That's good, and it's encouraging to see Ministers seizing the opportunity to reshape the way we do bus transport already. The bold announcement yesterday on the pause and review of road building also had a welcome focus on shifting investment into buses and public transport. That's good, but there is much more to do—much more.

'Llwybr Newydd: the Wales Transport Strategy 2021', sets a clear and new radical direction to take on bus transport and local transport connectivity. It contains a range of commitments, which include extending the reach of bus services—not shrinking, but extending—progressing the new bus legislation, which we've consulted on already, to give the public sector more control over local bus services, delivering innovative, more flexible bus services in partnership with local authorities, with commercial and with third sectors, says the chair of the Co-operative Party, and ensuring that bus services and facilities are accessible, attractive and safe for everyone. They are the go-to choice, not a leftover option.

Now, this is truly exciting for many of us. This sees a new future for buses that puts them at the heart of local and regional transport policy, and it puts people back at the heart of those local services, with greater control over local routes and times and more, with the point of principle that, in quotes,

'bus services and facilities are accessible, attractive and safe for everyone'.

I'm very grateful for the opportunity to make my maiden speech in this Parliament on the subject of bus services in Wales, and I'd like to thank my colleague for raising this and tabling this as an issue. Now, it's without a doubt that this is an issue of great concern to people all across Wales, and this is clearly demonstrated by the support for this motion by Members from every political group represented here today.

Improving bus services makes good sense economically, by improving accessibility to goods and services as well. It also makes good sense socially, by allowing people to live fuller and more satisfying lives. However, it is a fact—and I know we all like facts here—that passenger numbers have been in decline in recent times. There are undoubtedly a number of reasons for this: firstly, an increase in private car use; secondly, congestion, which naturally increases journey times, making services less predictable; thirdly, a decline in financial support for the sector, making many routes uneconomical.

In rural areas, more disperse, lower density populations make it challenging to deliver widespread timetable services run by traditional buses. Services often take long and indirect routes to serve as many people as possible, but they become an unattractive alternative for passengers who have access to a car. This is made more challenging by the impact of COVID-19 on the bus sector. The bus services emergency grant provided by the Welsh Government during the pandemic has provided the essential services for people who have needed to keep using public transport, including key workers. But the lasting impact on bus use remains unknown, with passenger numbers expected to fall even more so than they have already. So, the question is: how do we reverse this decline?

Firstly, we need to invest in bus services. I've already mentioned the bus services emergency grant, but, before the pandemic, the Welsh Government's direct support for the bus network was largely focused on the bus services support grant. Six years ago, Wales replaced the bus services operating grant with the bus services support grant, with funding set at £25 million. It's shocking, therefore, that this fixed pot of £25 million has not changed since BSSG's inception. Funding per passenger for bus services is inadequate and compares poorly with that provided for rail passengers. The Deputy Minister may point to the various concessionary fare schemes that exist, but these are a subsidy enjoyed by the passenger, and are not a substitute for poorly funded bus services.

Secondly, we must encourage cleaner, greener buses. In Scotland, the Scottish Government bus service operators grant comprises a core payment and an incentive for the operation of green, economically friendly buses. The core payment aims to support operators to keep fares at affordable levels and networks more extensive than would otherwise be the case, and the green incentive helps with additional running costs of low emission buses to support their uptake by operators. The Welsh Government must provide incentives to bus companies in Wales to decarbonise their vehicle stock.

I'd like to obviously thank Huw Irranca-Davies for bringing forward this motion to debate. I think both Huw and I have a shared interest locally as we both hail from the glorious constituency of Ogmore—myself in Pencoed and Huw, of course, in Maesteg. And, of course, I think it's fair to say that both of us have family members who often rely on bus services to get to work or to attend hospital appointments.

I think we're all aware that, no matter the area we represent, buses and the provision of bus services is often the most raised issue in our in-boxes. In the election, for example, I lost count the amount of times bus services were raised with me, in particular by constituents who were retired and, more often than not, relying on the service to get to an appointment, in my case, or in the cases that I come across, at the Princess of Wales Hospital.

I think the Deputy Minister for Climate Change hit the nail on the head yesterday, and I think he's going to be very happy that I've said this, that buses are as much a social justice issue as they are a climate change or a transport issue. For example, we know that the majority of bus users—some 80 per cent—do not have access to a private car. We also know that the vast majority of bus users who rely on the services are on low incomes. And, again, coming back to Ogmore, as Huw is aware, the vast majority of the constituency isn't covered by rail. And this isn't a unique characteristic of Ogmore, this is something that is seen across Wales. The Ogmore and Garw valleys are solely reliant on bus services for public transport and that's a pattern that we see everywhere in Wales, as I've said, from the Ogmore valleys to the Neath valleys and to the Swansea valleys. A lot of these areas are reliant on these services and, despite this, services are under constant threat of being cut or being altered because they are no longer profitable.

And profit I think is a key word for us to consider in this debate. The reality is that so long as bus services are in the hands of companies that are driven by profit, they will never be driven by the needs of our communities—that's the bottom line. The Minister for Finance and Local Government alluded to this in an answer she gave earlier on today: where services are needed, largely in low-income communities, they are pretty much non-existent and of poor quality, but where people can afford to pay more for the service, then the quality of the service is great. It's important now as this debate progresses—and it needs to progress as a matter of urgency, by the way—that we focus on how we can ensure that our bus services and the wider public transport system work for our communities, and communities, again, being the operative word here. For me, that's bringing the power back to the people and to bring our essential services back into public hands.

In the last Government, I delivered a petition to the Petitions Committee with approximately 3,700 signatures on it, with a covering note explaining that it is a social healthcare issue as well as a transport and economy issue. As a previous local authority cabinet member for transport, I addressed packed meetings of distressed residents concerned about the loss of a service, some of them in tears and worrying about being socially isolated.

Bus transport is hugely complicated and expensive. Our contract for a service, on average, is approximately £500,000. They are often tied up with school transport to make them viable. Each region is different, which is why the bus transport grant is broken down into regions and then local authority areas based on a formula. In Flintshire, for example, just one of 22 authorities, there are 450 transport contracts: 350 are school, serving thousands of residents, often the most vulnerable, young, old, disabled and socially disadvantaged. When a bus is late or does not turn up on time, it's distressing and needs resolving quickly, which is why it needs delivering locally with local expertise.

Highly populated areas have good services because that is where it is more lucrative. Rural areas need high subsidies and access to services that are not found locally. Transport needs to evolve and grow from the community up. Experience tells me that you cannot dictate from above and expect people to migrate to a service. Operators need the financial security of a long-term contract and grant funding towards the procurement of new vehicles to help services to be sustainable. I believe that scheduled services should remain on busy routes and Fflecsi dial-a-ride services on those with low passenger numbers, incorporating taxis and school contract operators through an element of community benefit, especially for medical appointments. This could be expanded to work in collaboration with health boards. And we need to give powers to local authorities to be able to run them, just as they once did. There used to be a public bus service for public people, and a service. A lot of our services have been eradicated by competitiveness and are not properly funded. Thank you.

Others have made the case this afternoon for the principle of buses and funding bus services, and the organisation and management of bus services. I endorse everything that was said in opening this debate by my colleague Huw Irranca-Davies; I think it's absolutely essential that we recognise the place of buses in a wider public transport policy. What I'd like to do is seek to describe how that would fit into a wider approach from Government. And I'm glad that the Minister is here—physically here, in fact—this afternoon to be able to listen to this debate and to join the debate.

In terms of how we deliver buses and bus services, there are clearly going to be significant changes and there need to be significant changes for the reasons that many people have given already; we can't carry on managing our services today and tomorrow in the way that we did some decades ago. But we also need to be aware of the needs of the people we serve. If you look at what's been happening in Ebbw Vale over the last two weeks, you'll have seen the introduction of the Fflecsi service, where you phone and make an appointment with an app to catch a bus and the rest of it, and I supported that. I would like to see the extension and development of these services, but it has to be delivered. And the chaos that we've seen in Ebbw Vale in the last couple of weeks is not the delivery of a service that the people of Ebbw Vale need. We need to ensure that, where we're delivering services, we're actually understanding the life experiences and the lived experiences of the people who are using those services. If you're taking your child to school in Ebbw Vale, you don't need a bus in an hour, you need a bus now and then you need to return in half an hour or 20 minutes. And that's what a much shorter urban bus service can do. Perhaps we need to consider the delivery of Fflecsi services and the rest of it on a wider, longer service network than in a small-town environment, where bus services are needed for short journeys that are more frequent journeys, but not longer journeys, and you need to return within an hour, and the rest of it. So, we need to understand the lived experience of people.

And then, we need Government to talk with itself and with us, together. Those of you who sat in the last Senedd will have been bored by me already talking about the need—[Interruption.] [Laughter.] To be fair, you were bored before I stood up. About the need for services to connect places like Blaenau Gwent to the new Grange hospital in Cwmbran. And many people here will have heard Ministers responding saying that that would happen. Needless to say, the hospital was built, the hospital was opened and we don't have the bus services to connect the people to the services that we need. And parts of my constituency remain unserved by a connectivity to that fantastic new resource.

Prior to the COVID pandemic, usage of and access to bus services were already on a downward trajectory. Analysis in 2018 suggested that the distance travelled by local bus services had fallen by 20 per cent in 10 years. In fact, Wales has seen the biggest percentage drop in bus miles between 2006-07 and 2016-17 compared to the other UK nations. That is a really regrettable fact. So, I'm delighted that there is cross-party consensus on the need to engage meaningfully with our communities across Wales on a new strategy and in reshaping bus services to meet transport needs.

Transport providers themselves have certainly stepped up to the mark during this pandemic, and I'm really proud of my bus operators in Aberconwy. Alpine Travel have offered a complimentary community transport service to enable vulnerable people to access shops, and they have run errands, such as picking up prescriptions. That is one example of the passion that our bus operators in north Wales have for connecting communities. So, I think that it's right that we stop talking down that sector and actually speak up for them. They haven't been failed by themselves, the communities, they've been failed by this Welsh Government.

The £37.2 million in the bus services agreement is a good start. I welcome that the scheme has terms requiring operators to provide services that meet local need and priorities, including supporting learners' journeys to school, increasing services in situations where demand exceeds capacity, and backing integration across transport modes. In fact, in my constituency and next door, it could be a benefit to the Conwy valley and Snowdonia national park. As many Members here will know, the area is being overwhelmed with visitors travelling in their own cars. I have long campaigned for a direct rail service from Manchester Airport to Blaenau Ffestiniog, and then integrated timetabling of rail and bus services, so that tourists can easily go by public transport from cities to the highest peak in England and Wales.

Of course, this would be in line with priority 2 of 'Llwybr Newydd' and the commitment to extend the geographical reach of public transport into every community, especially in rural Wales. In fact, Aberconwy is a prime example of how services can be, and have been, modernised to meet demand across rural communities. We have the Conwy valley Fflecsi bus service. What this bus provision does is adjust its route to pick up and drop off passengers anywhere within the designated Fflecsi zone. I do not doubt that it would have a positive impact on our united missions to achieve net zero.

I'm pleased to say, Dirprwy Lywydd, that throughout the pandemic I was able to make contact with Stagecoach and their director for south Wales, Nigel Winter, who is a very, very good person to talk to. One of the things he said was that the bus emergency scheme that the Welsh Government introduced saved the bus industry in Wales through the pandemic. I think the Dirprwy Weinidog, and also the former Minister, Ken Skates, should take credit for that, because without that service, without that scheme and its successors, we wouldn't be talking today about a public transport service, because we wouldn't have that base on which it would exist.

I was also a member, in the previous Senedd, of the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee, and we did numerous reports—I think the Deputy Minister was a member of the committee for a period of time, before he was promoted to the current level of stardom he currently occupies, and a very good committee member he was. One of the things that he, as part of that committee, instituted were reports on things like traffic congestion, on the structure and role of Transport for Wales, and on the decarbonisation of transport. These reports are in the Senedd archive for us to read, and they are key, I think, to the direction of thinking in which the Welsh Government needs to go. I'm particularly pleased about flexibility.

I want to see a flexible service to connect communities such as Ystrad Mynach and Nelson, for example. It's important that people can hop on and hop off when they need to. It would also be good to have an app and a phone number to book a bus. A pilot scheme like this is happening in Ebbw Vale at the moment, and that's good to see. It would be great to see that happening in Caerphilly, and we can sort out any problems that could arise.

As Alun Davies said, there have been problems. Well, let's sort those out before we bring the pilot into Caerphilly, shall we? That's probably the best way to do it. I've been hounding the Minister for a Fflecsi service. Perhaps we can sort the problems out in Ebbw Vale first and then we'll perfect it in Caerphilly. That's the way things should happen.

I think the Bill that we are expecting to see, and we would have seen—I think the last interview I did on Sharp End before the pandemic that wasn't about the pandemic was on the bus Bill that we were expecting to see in the last Senedd. The reregulation Bill, I think, is going to be something really, really important. And the key issue, I think, will be how do you provide for people who work out of hours, how do you infill those services that are not profitable. How do you do that? I think reregulation—as has already been said by many speakers, particularly on these benches, because I think this is a core belief of our pursuit of social justice—will be key to that Bill.

Another question will also be—and perhaps this is one that the Minister can respond to in his answer—how are the regulatory structures going to fit in. Because I've talked to Carolyn Thomas, who was the Cabinet member for transport in Flintshire council. I've learned a lot today from speaking to her. One of the things she raised with me is what is the role of Transport for Wales, what will be the role of joint transport authorities, and what will be the role of local authorities. Because there are many specific roles you can allocate to those different groups that you have to get right, and we still aren't clear on exactly what they will be. I think some detail from the Minister, in his response, would be very helpful there and enable us to understand what this Bill is trying to achieve in the future.

This is a very welcome debate. I thought, Natasha Asghar, it was great to see your first speech, and it was a really good speech. It was perhaps a little bit too partisan for my taste in parts, but definitely, the direction we want to have is getting this improvement in public transport through on a cross-party basis in this Senedd. I think this debate paves the way for that.

Across my region of South Wales Central, countless constituents have been in touch on this very issue, and it is clear that there's an inconsistent service across Wales. And even though there are issues linked to the pandemic that have resulted in reduced services and reduced capacity, the reality is that the bus services have been completely inadequate even prior to this. COVID should not be used as an excuse. It is crucial that we secure from the Welsh Government detailed plans and timescales on when improvements will be made as soon as possible, and, more importantly, that the Welsh Government delivers on those.

If you own a car, and you've planned on using a bus on a certain day, its cancellation or delay is an inconvenience at most. But, for those who don't own a car, or are unable to drive because of age or a medical condition, and rely on buses to get to work, to medical appointments, to go shopping, to take their children to school or to socialise, it can severely impact on their lives. And though there is a specific problem with bus services in rural areas, I think we need to be honest that this is a widespread problem and also affects people living in our towns and cities. If we are serious about tackling climate change and supporting more people in using public transport, this cannot continue.

To illustrate this, I would like to use an example of my own community of Pontypridd. I live in the Graigwen area, which is 1 mile from the town centre but up a very steep hill. Many elderly people live in my community, and are completely reliant on the bus to access basic services. Prior to the pandemic, we had been calling for improvements. The hourly bus service was unreliable, it finished at 5.30 p.m. daily, it did not run on a Sunday or a bank holiday and neither did it run right to the top of the hill to serve those living in the streets at the top of the estate. People complained to me about feeling isolated and restricted to their homes, and could not rely on the bus service. They even struggled to find a taxi to take them to medical appointments if the appointment clashed with the school run, and were anxious anytime they had to go anywhere as they could not be certain a bus would turn up. Even the bus stop is inadequate and provides no shelter from the rain.

As I said, these are the problems that we faced prior to the pandemic, and they are not unique to Graigwen. There are also similar issues in relation to the bus services serving other nearby communities to the town, such as Cilfynydd and Glyncoch, which have progressively worsened, with services cancelled frequently due to a lack of drivers. In fact, on 19 June, the 109, 107 and 105 services did not run at all, with no communication with passengers. I've received similar complaints today about people stranded in the bus station in Pontypridd.

I represent a constituency of contrast: some of the wealthiest wards in Wales, alongside some of the poorest super-output areas of deprivation. In one of my poorest wards, the medical centre decided to downgrade the surgery in Pentwyn, disinvesting from the local community, and so patients who are either ill themselves or have children who are ill are having to walk a couple of miles just to get to the doctor's—and they're not feeling well, or their child isn't. Some of them are so poor they don't even have any credit on their phones, so they definitely can't afford a taxi. So, the absence of a bus is unbelievably difficult for them.

It isn't just poor households, however, whose lives shrink when bus services are withdrawn. I can recall three years ago when Cyncoed lost the bus service down the west side of the Roath lake that you'll all be familiar with—the devastating impact on elderly and disabled people, who simply are unable to comfortably walk across the park in order to get the single bus that runs on the east side of the lake once an hour. This means that their lives shrink, because they are so careful with their money, mainly, that they won't hire a taxi in order to go and meet a friend or some other social occasion, and they stop going out. Yes, they can get food delivered, but if they don't have relatives nearby who are going to take them places, they simply don't go anywhere.

So, this is just a massive issue, and the cause of this is very much down to the fact that we are unable to control exactly where the routes are that serve what is a very urban constituency. Even in urban constituencies, we have massive problems of people becoming socially isolated as a result of the shortage of buses and the lack of control over where we need buses to go. It is pointless in such circumstances to have a bus pass—a freedom pass—if there are no buses. So, I do hope that, together, we can move forward on ensuring that the money we spend on buses, which is considerable, can be better organised so that we can ensure that everybody has equity in their access to a bus.

It's a pleasure to support this motion tabled by my friend the Member for Ogmore today. As I was doing some preparation for this debate, I found a figure on StatsWales that shocked me and underscored the importance of today's debate, and that's the passenger journeys on local bus services by country per head of population in 2019-20. For England, this was 72.3, for Scotland 67, and for Wales the figure was just 28.2, and that's before we factor in the impact of COVID.

In the context of the pandemic, though, it's only fair to start by recognising the considerable support that the Welsh Government provided—support such as the multimillion pound bus emergency scheme. It's not an understatement to say that the bus industry would not be standing without that support. But that, in itself, poses questions, as the second part of the motion suggests—questions as to the sustainability of the current model, as to whether services meet local demand, and how we are mapping and determining routes in our communities. We need a radical rethink as to what we want from bus provision and what we think is good bus provision.

Firstly, we must provide bus services our communities want, and I'll illustrate this by an example from my constituency. From the village of Cwmbach to a local supermarket is under 1 mile. Lots of older people live in the village, car ownership rates are low, and since that supermarket was built over 20 years ago, there had always been a direct bus service. Recently, however, the bus operator decided to remove it, and now people need to take two or three buses to get to that supermarket, which can be up to 5 miles each way—a 10-mile journey for a journey that should take under 2 miles. Obviously, this can be a real challenge with heavy shopping bags. How will we encourage people to get on buses if this is the kind of service that is being provided? I really support point 6 of the motion for meaningful conversation with communities. Local people need and deserve a direct voice in the determining of provision that meets their needs.

Secondly, we must offer different ways of responding to those needs. Like all Members, I receive regular communication from constituents about the services they want or need, and I receive the same responses from bus operators when I raise these concerns in turn. 'Those routes are not economically viable', they say, 'There aren't the passenger numbers to justify them'. I think demand-responsive travel could be the means to cut through that impasse that never allows us to explore whether new bus service routes are actually viable and would be used. It may not be feasible to have big, empty buses rattling around, but smaller vehicles operating in a smarter way may be the solution. A Fflecsi scheme was trialled in the Senedd last term, including in parts of RCT, and under that scheme, people could request a demand-responsive bus picked them up from home, work, or the shops. I'd be really keen to see much more of this. It must operate alongside the work of community transport providers so that their work is complemented.

I welcome this debate and this discussion very much and thank you to everyone who has submitted the motion. I'm eager to see the Deputy Minister and this Government looking specifically at bus services in our rural communities and I want to endorse what Alun Davies said earlier, because it appears that there is a disconnect between what the Government and Governments have said and what they achieve on the ground. If you consider over the past few decades, we have seen a very urban model forced on the communities of Wales, with services isolated from our rural areas. If you consider how many community hospitals have closed and if somebody needs a blood test or physiotherapy, they have to travel further. How many care homes are far away from our rural communities? If somebody wants to see a loved one, then you have to consider that distance. Think about the bus stations, the post offices, the banks, the job centres and the courts that have been lost or closed in our communities, forcing people to travel further and further. But, again, because of the nature of our rural communities and there are so few people living in those communities, it's these routes that are cut first, those rural routes, because they're not being seen as profitable. We've seen more of that happening because of this austerity that has been imposed upon us by the two Governments.

So, services have gone further away whilst, at the same time, we're seeing the funding to bus services decreasing, and I'll give you an example: there’s a constituent from Aberdaron who has contacted me this week—Aberdaron in the Llŷn peninsula—and they have to receive further education in Coleg Meirion Dwyfor in Dolgellau, which is a good long way away, and they have to travel hours on public transport. Or, another constituent who contacted me, in Harlech, having to travel to the hospital in Bangor. Now, that's 35 miles between Bangor and Harlech, but in order to get there on public transport, something that would take around an hour in a car, it takes three and a half hours, and almost four hours on a bus. So, we have to see solutions, and we have to see rural communities being considered in these plans. That would be my plea as the Deputy Minister responds to this debate. Thank you very much.

I call on the Deputy Minister for Climate Change, Lee Waters.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and thank you for the debate.

I'm really encouraged by the degree of consensus there is, both on the importance of buses and on some of the measures that we need to take collectively to improve the situation. As Huw Irranca-Davies said at the outset, we need to restore the public purpose of public transport, and I thought that was a very powerful and insightful comment. And Heledd Fychan set out very powerfully how some people are currently let down by a service that is not always functional and certainly isn't always easy. As I made clear yesterday, to tackle the imperative of climate change we need to make the right thing to do the easiest thing to do, and currently it is not. It is much easier if you have a car, and bear in mind something like 20 per cent of households don't have a car, but if you have a car it is the simplest way to get around. If we are all sincere in our objectives to meet the climate emergency, we have to shift that, so the obvious, easy way to get about for most everyday journeys is public transport. We are some way off that, and I think we all need to be honest about that. There are many and complex reasons why we are some way off that, and they've been captured by many people in this debate.

We have a system that is very complex. The privatisation in the early 80s has been a disaster, and has made things extremely difficult to co-ordinate. The public transport system in London works because it is regulated. Outside of London it rarely works, because it is not regulated. It's not that complex. We had hoped to introduce legislation in the last Senedd to introduce franchising into Wales. We were not able to do that, but we are determined to do it in this Senedd, and we'll be publishing a plan later in this year on how we intend to do that. I want us to work together, given the shared ambition in this Chamber, to make that the most ambitious plan that we can, not to do the minimum that we need to do, but to see if we can stretch ourselves to really achieve a seamless, end-to-end public transport system that works for most people.

I'd echo the comments in the Chamber about how public transport and bus services were the quiet heroes of the pandemic, and Vikki Howells's tribute particularly to the bus drivers who enabled key workers, NHS staff and children to return to school—we couldn't have done it without them. I think it's also right to recognise the role of the Welsh Government in stepping in and saving an industry, as Hefin David acknowledged Nigel Winter from Stagecoach has pointed out. I pay tribute to my colleague Ken Skates, who I see on the screen, who worked closely with the bus industry alongside me through the pandemic to make sure the package of measures was there to stop this essential ecosystem disappearing before our eyes.

To respond to some of the comments in the many excellent contributions, I was pleased to see so many Members highlight the role that the Fflecsi demand-responsive bus service has played, and is playing in the Conwy Valley as Janet Finch-Saunders mentioned; Carolyn Thomas similarly talked of its potential, as did Vikki Howells as a way of bringing new passengers into buses and exploring where the routes can be more viable using this new demand-responsive system. And certainly, that's the experience in Newport where this has been trialled; it is showing there is latent demand there. People will use buses when it's a more flexible service. So, it's very encouraging.

Alun Davies pointed out some teething troubles that there have been in Ebbw Vale, where there have been some difficulties. And I would say to him—I understand his frustration—it is a pilot project, and pilot projects are there to test approaches, and things don't always go to plan. And there have been difficulties with software and there have been difficulties with staff training. As I understand it, we're now past that; I'd be grateful if he could tell me if there are continuing problems, but that was the last information I had. And we are learning, and as we learn, we will scale, and I think that is the right approach to take, and it's better we fail fast and fail on a small level than failing in one big bang if we rush this. So, that is our intention and ambition: to roll this out with confidence.

He did point out some legitimate criticisms of the way public services are often planned without thinking about how people are going to get to them, other than by car. And he's mentioned the Grange University Hospital, a very familiar example, and I quoted that example to the chief executive of Hywel Dda University Health Board last week, because they're planning a new hospital in west Wales, to make sure that those mistakes are not repeated. And one of the points of putting this department together with transport next to planning, next to regeneration, next to climate change and others, is to make sure there is join-up, and we can insist those things are thought through.

We are hoping later this year—we'd hoped to do it before the pandemic, in response to representations from Alun Davies; it's been delayed—but we're hoping by the end of this year to have a new TrawsCymru cross-Valleys bus service that will link the Grange with an east-west route, linking Cwmbran, Pontypool, Newbridge, Ystrad Mynach and Pontypridd with a fleet of low-emission buses, and we are working on the details of that now. And I'm happy to speak to Alun Davies further about if we can enhance that and link it up with the Fflecsi services. I hear him from a sedentary position making other constructive comments that we'd like to bear in mind as we design the service, because it has to work for the people that we're all here to serve. These things are tricky to knit together because, as has been pointed out, we don't have the tools and we don't have all the resources we'd want because, as we set out yesterday, money is being spent in other places and we need to reallocate that.

No Members have indicated that they wish to make an intervention. I therefore call on Huw Irranca-Davies to reply to the debate.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I said I'd keep it under a minute, and I will indeed. I want to thank the—. I think we've had 10 contributors to this debate, and I, like the Minister, am encouraged by the degree of consensus around the need for additional investment and greater planning, by and large, from people, about putting the control back to local people and local authorities so they have a say on where these routes run and the times of the day that they do as well. Greater collaboration, less competition—. Wasteful competition, I think, is a theme. We might have different ways of how to take that forward, but I think that will be a theme as well.

Minister, you asked the question in your closing remarks—. I can't turn to everybody's contribution, I'm afraid, in a minute. But you asked the question, 'Do we have the courage?' I think we have to have the courage. In order to shift investment into multimodal transport, we have to have the willingness to actually say honestly how that will be done. If we're going to talk about taking back control, we have to be honest with people about how we're doing it.

But I would say, in closing, it's to do with partnership. We've learnt so much about how to do this well during the pandemic. In building back fairer—and this is a social justice and a climate justice issue—we will do it together and with the support of people in this Chamber. You have the backing of the Chamber to do this, I think.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

We will now suspend proceedings to allow changeovers in the Chamber. If you are leaving the Chamber, please do so promptly. The bell will be rung two minutes before proceedings restart. Any Members who are arriving after a changeover should wait until then before entering the Chamber.

Item 6 is the next item, the Welsh Conservatives debate on departure from the European Union, and I call on Darren Millar to move the motion.

Diolch, Llywydd. I rise to move the motion on the order paper and to speak in opposition to both of the amendments.

Llywydd, today marks the fifth anniversary of the historic moment when Wales, along with the rest of the United Kingdom, voted to leave the European Union. It's an inconvenient truth for many people in this Chamber, but that is the state of things. The referendum, of course, saw the highest turnout in any ballot in Wales since the 1997 general election. It gave us a clear result, which sent shockwaves through the Welsh establishment, some of whom I can hear heckling at the moment—[Laughter.] An astonishing 854,572 people in Wales voted to leave the EU. That's nearly twice as many as those who voted Labour in the last Senedd election, and it's 300,000 more than the ballots that were cast in favour of establishing the Senedd back in 1997.

The three and a half years that followed the Brexit vote were not straightforward. The parliamentary arithmetic, and the determination of those who played politics and did not respect the will of the people and who sought to frustrate the Brexit process, made it at times very difficult and tortuous. But that painful period was brought to an end with a general election in 2019 that saw a Conservative Government elected with a whopping majority. It had a clear mandate to get Brexit done, and it was an election that saw Labour's red wall reduced to rubble in north-east Wales. The Liberal Democrats, of course, were wiped off the map—[Interruption.] I thought you'd like that, James. And Plaid were knocked into third place in its No. 1 target seat, Ynys Môn.

Following that election, of course, Boris got Brexit done. He delivered on his pledge to the people. Llywydd, it is vital for the sake of democracy that election and referendum results are always respected and implemented. That's why I am incredibly disappointed that, in their delete-all amendments today, neither the separatists in Plaid Cymru nor the Welsh Labour Government has chosen to reflect this very important truth.

Llywydd, my party did not table today's motion with the intention of opening up the divisions of the past that emerged during the Brexit debate—[Interruption.] It's true. It was tabled, rather, to give all Members of this Senedd the opportunity to have a full and frank debate about the opportunities that Brexit presents for Wales, and to move on from all of the division of the past five years. Yet, as we can see from the order paper, both of the parties opposite have tabled amendments that are refrains of the same sort of divisiveness, the same sort of grandstanding, that characterised their response to the referendum in 2016. They are like a scratched record, Llywydd. It's time that they moved on.

Both the Labour and Plaid Cymru—[Interruption.] Both the Labour and Plaid Cymru amendments seek to peddle the myth that the UK Government has been undermining devolution since Brexit, but nothing could be further from the truth. The reality is that, thanks to Brexit, Wales now has its most powerful devolved Parliament in history.

Wales has emerged with an exciting new list of responsibilities that previously resided in Brussels, and, contrary to the assertion of Labour and Plaid, the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020 did not remove a single power from this Senedd. Instead, it allowed for an orderly transfer of powers that already and previously resided in the EU, and it gave them back to Parliaments here in the UK. That's what people voted for. And, in those further powers and responsibilities, there are scores of areas here in Wales that have now seen the devolution settlement further cemented in our constitution. These are not powers over obscure areas of legislation that have no impact on people's lives. They fall in significant areas, such as air quality, food labelling, the marine environment, public procurement, and the list goes on and on and on. And all of these new powers and responsibilities, if they are used well by this Welsh Government, are capable of improving the day-to-day lives of people across the nation.

So, Llywydd, there has been no power grab by the UK Government following our departure from the EU. There has been no assault on devolution. I have asked time and time again for Members of the parties opposite to give me a list of the powers that have been stripped away from the Senedd as a result of the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020, and I am still waiting for that list. Because the reality is, there'll be nothing on it. There is nothing on it; there's nothing on that list. I look forward to receiving it. I hope you do a better job than your predecessor, because I never received a copy. And that's because they can't produce one, because there aren't any powers that have been stripped away from this Senedd. The accusations that they have been levelling against the UK Government are nothing more than sabre rattling—sabre rattling from political parties who balk about powers being transferred from the European Union to Westminster, yet never balked when all of these powers were held in Brussels.

Plaid even have the audacity, yet again today, to be tabling something before us calling for a further referendum for constitutional change. Now, as I said two weeks ago to the Members on the Plaid benches, there's no appetite for further significant constitutional change and further referendums in Wales. You made your pitch to the people of Wales in the Senedd elections last month, on the basis that you wanted independence and you wanted a referendum, and you were slapped in the face, frankly, by the Welsh electorate, who rejected your calls overwhelmingly.

And, of course, the Welsh Government has accused the UK Government of aggressive centralisation in recent months—aggressive centralisation, that's what they've accused us of. The irony. It's a bit rich of the Welsh Government that's been centralising powers in Cardiff and stripping them away from local councils the length and breadth of this country for two decades to be telling the UK Government that it's a centralising Government. Absolutely unbelievable. The facts are this: the UK Government, as a result of the levelling-up fund and the shared prosperity fund, is actually decentralising power. It's decentralising power by giving local authorities a much bigger role than they've ever had before in the delivery of sizeable and significant investment in their areas. Because that's the difference between my party and the other parties represented in this Chamber: we trust local people to make local decisions for themselves. We believe that they're better able to make the decisions for themselves than people sat in ivory towers in Cardiff. That's the truth. That's the truth.

Now, you'd think that the parties opposite would welcome more investment from the UK Government in Wales, and yet, they oppose it. Isn't it extraordinary? They're always asking for more money and more investment, and when the UK Government says, 'Right, we'll give it; we'll pave the way with this UK internal market Act', they turn around and say, 'We don't want it; we want to make the decisions.' Well, I'm sorry, it's unacceptable. You should not be griping about this additional resource that the UK Government wants to make available here in Wales. We don't need a Government that sticks two fingers up to the UK Government; what we need is a Government that works in collaboration with the UK Government for the benefit of the people of Wales. Because, you know what, as a result of Brexit, I've got a lot of optimism going forward. Not only will Wales benefit as a result of the shared prosperity fund and the levelling-up funds that will come into our local authorities, but we will also benefit as a result of the trade deals that have been cut with nations across the globe.

Her Majesty's Government has already secured trade agreements with 67 countries and the European Union. Sixty-seven countries. Deals worth more than—. I remember some of you on those Labour benches telling us that there'd be no way that there would be a trade deal within the next decade with the European Union, and yet we have one. Yet we have one. Boris Johnson and his team have pulled the rabbit out of the hat. I know you don't like it, but that's the truth. That's the truth. We've got deals worth more than £890 billion and counting. Sixty-three per cent of UK trade is covered by those trade deals. Deals with countries as diverse as Canada, Egypt, Iceland, Japan, Kenya, Serbia, Chile, Singapore. The list goes on and on and on. And these are not trade deals that are struck by an insular United Kingdom; these are trade deals by a global Britain that wants to play an important role on the international stage.

So, let's mark this wonderful anniversary of the referendum, five years ago today, by putting those divisions behind us. Let's agree to work together, to take advantage of all that Brexit affords, and let's make sure that the Welsh Government, over the next five years, works collaboratively with the UK Government for the benefit of everybody here in Wales.

I have selected the two amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call on Rhys ab Owen to move amendment 1, tabled in the name of Siân Gwenllian.

I move the motion.

Llywydd, I was surprised to see this motion from the Conservatives today. Only a fortnight ago, the Conservative chief whip accused me of constitutional navel gazing. Well, what have we had today but constitutional navel gazing? But, I think, Mr Millar, you enjoyed our debate more a fortnight ago than you care to admit.

The first Plaid Cymru debate was progressive; it showed the way to improve Wales and expand our powers, not hand them back, as the Conservatives want to do. Brexit has happened, we are out of the European Union, so why you have to go on and on about it so much, I don't know. But, that does not mean that we shouldn't hold the leaders of the 'leave' campaign, who made all kinds of empty promises to the people of Wales and the UK, to account. We won't forget the red bus with the promise of more funding for the health service; we won't forget the promise that Wales and the most deprived communities in Wales would receive additional funding; we won't forget the increase in hatred towards immigrants as a result of the 'leave' campaign.

We know what the 'leave' campaign meant when the rally cry was, 'Take back control'. It was take back control to Westminster. Wales wasn't on the agenda. From the beginning, Wales did not feature. We saw this in the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 putting further restraints on the devolution settlement in Wales, and we see it now with Wales being ignored time and time again. Listen, Members; listen to the sound of the constant drum of threats to devolution post Brexit. The UK internal market Act, the levelling-up fund, the shared prosperity fund, all designed to redraw the political map that the people of Wales have voted for time and time again.

The second paragraph made me laugh in the Conservative motion today, when they said that the outcomes of referendums should be respected. Now, well, that's rich, coming from the Conservative benches. Prior to the election, one of your Members declared that he was going to finally end the devolution experiment in Wales. That Member also said he'll campaign to end devolution in Wales. Does that show respect to the outcomes of two referendums in 1997 and 2011? Your Senedd leader—your Senedd leader—in 2005 stood on a manifesto that said they'd have a referendum that would include the option to abolish the Assembly. Does that show respect to the will of the people of Wales? And just this week—just this week—we heard from the economy Minister, who said despite the fact that he was invited to the trade talks with the EU, he wasn't allowed to say anything. He wasn't allowed to contribute. Does that show respect to our Government here in Wales? Let me tell the Conservative benches this right now: our Welsh Parliament is not an experiment. It's not here to come to an end at a whim of a Conservative Party in Government, and we're not a token gesture. We are not here to be seen but not heard.

Gwynfor Evans showed greater vision in the 1960s than we are seeing now from the Conservatives over there. He described Wales as a laboratory—a chance to show how to do things and for the world to follow.

A number of important changes have happened in this place, social changes, some things that we wouldn't have thought possible 20 years ago, such as banning smoking in pubs, the plastic bag charge, presumed consent for organ donation and removing—even though you wanted to keep it—removing the defence of reasonable chastisement of children.

And I look forward to working cross party in this group to bring forward a universal basic income, so we can create, as Janet Finch-Saunders quoted earlier today, a socialist utopia here in Wales.

Where Wales leads, others follow.

Boris Johnson saw the Brexit process as a chance to grab the front-door keys to 10 Downing Street. Now that we have this hard, harsh Brexit, we, as a Senedd, need to work together to mitigate its impact. We must repel those distant drums of an English nationalist Conservative Party, a party that is intent on damaging devolution, and through that, damaging Wales and damaging the people of Wales.

Poll after poll has shown that people in Wales across the political spectrum want additional powers. So, my call to you, the Welsh Government, is to be unstinting in your efforts. Don't delay, don't wait for the Westminster Government to do something, because nothing from that direction will benefit the people of Wales. If we respect the referenda of the past, we need to demand additional powers. So, support our amendment and demand those additional powers for the benefit of the people of Wales. Thank you very much.

I call on the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution to formally move amendment 2.

Formally.

As I stated here in June 2016,

'Wales in Britain must be a sovereign partner of Europe not a province of the EU as part of an outward-looking global community.'

Today, five years exactly since the people of Wales—the people of Wales—voted to leave the EU, an outward-looking global Britain is able to strike trade deals with new markets as a liberal, free trading force for good in the world. Much has been achieved, and especially given the unprecedented circumstances created by the pandemic and constant sniping from those who, for once, didn't get their own way.

Since Brexit, our global UK has signed deals covering 67 countries and the EU, and is making good progress with other friends and allies, including New Zealand, Australia and the US. Last week's historic free trade deal with Australia will create new opportunities for UK and Welsh businesses and consumers, removing all tariffs on UK goods, making it cheaper to sell products like cars, whisky and ceramics into Australia, slashing red tape for thousands of small businesses, making it easier to travel and work, especially for young people.

Farmers will be protected by a cap on tariff-free imports for 15 years, and agricultural producers will also be supported to increase their exports overseas. In some cases, Australia has higher animal welfare standards than some EU countries, and the UK international trade Secretary has also guaranteed, for example, that hormone-injected beef will remain banned in the UK. However, as NFU Cymru Clwyd told me last Saturday, trade liberalisation is good, but they need fair play on hygiene and welfare standards. We agree. They added that they need farm support schemes from the Welsh Government that are serviceable, workable and affordable. Well, that's over to these Ministers.

Yesterday, the UK Government launched negotiations to join the comprehensive and progressive agreement, the trans-Pacific partnership, a £1 trillion free trading area, home to 500 million people, which will open up new opportunities for UK businesses in the world's fastest growing market. Rather than whingeing and wailing, sneering and scaremongering, it's vital that Labour Welsh Government Ministers and Plaid Cymru, fellow travellers in Cardiff Bay, now ensure that Wales is at the front of the queue to capitalise on the numerous opportunities created for Welsh businesses by these new trade deals, which will allow us to build back better after the pandemic.

As I said here last December,

'experts say the post-Brexit trade deal will help the economy bounce back in 2021, after a bleak year dominated by the coronavirus crisis.'

Five years ago, by a narrow margin, a majority of the people who cast a ballot in Wales and the UK as a whole voted to leave the European Union, and we've left. That's right, and that's the democratic outcome. But democracy is nuanced, it's not a sledgehammer. As well as a majority decision, it's about pluralism, tolerance and finding common ground, which is one of the reasons many of us argued for an exit deal that maintained the greatest possible access to the EU single market and continued participation in a customs union. To my mind, that would have been a more democratic outcome of the referendum, one that both sides of the argument could have lived with.

As it is, the Tories pursued a partisan, hard Brexit, turning it into this toxic wedge issue that continues to divide politicians, yes, but more importantly communities, families and friendship and the constitutional stability of the UK, which is sad and deeply irresponsible. For that reason alone, Boris Johnson's deal should be deemed a political and social failure. But already it's proving to be an economic failure, too. The other reason we argued for greater alignment with the EU was to prevent what we are seeing now—barriers to trade that Welsh businesses were told they wouldn't face, the massive increase in bureaucracy and non-tariff barriers, the difficulties faced by the arts and creative sector in touring in Europe, the immediate damage to our seafood industry, and the very obvious border in the Irish sea. These are not unexpected or teething problems, like the Tories would like us to believe; they are inherent and they are an inevitable consequence of the Tory Brexit.

I mentioned Northern Ireland. We all, I hope, accept that we cannot have a hard border on the island of Ireland. So, any trade deal with the US or Australia, or any other country for that matter, necessarily means either a border in the Irish sea or throwing Welsh and UK farmers under the famous Brexit bus. There's no getting around that. The Australia deal shows the direction of travel. The Tories have plumped for the sea border and free trade over the UK's constitutional integrity and the future of Welsh farming.

I explained the Tories' hypocrisy on this issue recently, so I won't repeat that, but I didn't know whether to laugh or to cry when I watched the UK trade Minister defend it in Parliament and on the airwaves. In one breath, Liz Truss lauded the access our farmers would have to the new markets, like Vietnam. Next, she was admitting that there's virtually no trade in products like chicken because it's so far away. Well, who would have known it? Who would have known that Vietnam is a long way from the rest of Europe? Suddenly, she's seen that light.

Thank you for the opportunity to contribute in this important debate today, tabled by my colleague Mr Millar. Today, of course, as you clearly know, marks five years since the people of Wales voted to leave the European Union along with the people of the United Kingdom. And for me, one of the most fascinating aspects of the referendum was that it was the biggest democratic exercise that our country has ever seen. I want to take a few moments this afternoon to celebrate that.

Remember that we're elected here today with a turnout of around 45 per cent for these Senedd elections, and Westminster colleagues are elected at around 67 per cent turnout for their elections, but this referendum five years ago trumped this with a 72 per cent turnout. There was a huge amount of engagement by the electorate—1.6 million people in Wales voted in that Brexit referendum. It's a UK Conservative Government that is acting on the will of the people and is delivering on and continues to deliver on the mandate from the people of Wales in leaving the European Union. As politicians, of course, we must never forget who we represent and what they wish for us to do, and this referendum was a perfect example of this. [Interruption.] In your constituency, I'm sure you'll know, Mr Davies, 62 per cent, I believe, voted to leave.

The people of Wales chose to leave the European Union. They went against what many experts were telling them to do and they went against what many politicians were telling them to do. It was they who chose their destiny and it was they who chose their freedom from the European Union. The role, of course, of us as elected politicians—and certainly as Government—is to listen and carry out the will of the people and the people of Wales who give us their mandate. There's no clearer way to listen to the people of Wales than through a direct binary referendum. And in the words of one of the greatest exponents of democracy, Abraham Lincoln, democracy is 'government of, by and for the people'. Elections belong to the people; it's their decision.

It's clear more than ever that the British people have endorsed Brexit. They again endorsed the UK Conservative Government Brexit plan—[Interruption.] They endorsed it again, Mr Davies, at the most recent UK general election where the Conservatives gained a whopping majority to get Brexit done, as the Prime Minister continues to repeat. And as our Conservative motion outlines, it's now time for the Welsh Government to promote and take advantage of the opportunities that our departure from the EU presents. We have now fully regained our political and economic independence, taking back control of our laws, borders, money, trade and fisheries. Moving forward from this, the trade agreement that the UK has agreed with the EU on behalf of the British people will help to forge a fantastic new relationship with our European neighbours, based on free trade and friendly co-operation.

What an ill-starred anniversary this is. I won't use my contribution today to rehearse the lies that were told during the 2016 referendum—they are a matter of public record—but I do take exception to the tone of the latter half of the Conservative motion with its focus on opportunities, conveniently ignoring the power grab from Westminster under the internal market Act, and the EU successor schemes that, only last week, I explained to the Chamber seemed calculated to enrich Tory-supporting areas at the expense of our communities. No mention of the threatened cuts to our arts sector, our students' ability to study, form relationships and flourish abroad—all taken away.

When I first came to this Senedd and was spokesperson on Brexit, it seemed that all of our bandwidth was taken up with trade deals, news from negotiations, and division bells reverberating all the way from Westminster to our Senedd. I felt haunted by the awareness of all that was passing our attention by—the could, the would, the should, the might-have-beens that could not be because Brexit was taking all of our attention. Now, the sorry saga of Brexit is too often relegated to written statements. Updates that affect the livelihoods and life chances of citizens are pushed to pages written down, not spoken or scrutinised.

I don't blame the Welsh Government, and goodness knows COVID has had to take so much of our attention, but Llywydd, outside the Chamber there hangs still a sense of what might have been, no longer perhaps in terms of legislative time or Government priority, but lives put on hold, EU citizens who've lived for years amongst us having to reapply for their right to reside, a sense of dense interbelonging and shared aspirations sidelined, and horizons shrinking and crumpling in. And across the sea, discord and tension in Northern Ireland grows louder, stoked by Westminster Ministers who didn't bother to care about the impact that their laissez-faire, lazy braggadocio would have on what is quite literally a matter of life and death.

Llywydd, the motion speaks of opportunities. I would speak of opportunities lost—the opportunity cost of red tape, form filling, the roads not taken because now they are blocked. In 'Hard Border' the poet Clare Dwyer Hogg reminds us that

'chance and hope come in forms like steam and smoke'.

Not all of the impacts of Brexit are as tangible as lines of lorries on a motorway. I would remind the Chamber of the journeys never taken, the loves never found, challenges missed before they could be faced, triumphs and tribulations we might have shared; those might-have-beens dissipating and disappearing like smoke in the wind.

I assumed the debate would turn out like this this afternoon, actually. Perhaps I should have thought differently about it. When you consider what's been going on both before and after the referendum, ironically I think it's the Luxembourg Prime Minister, Xavier Bettel, that I feel most sympathy for, when he said,

'Before, they were in and they had many opt-outs; now they want to be out with many opt-ins.'

I think unwittingly there he summed up the drift, dishonesty and confusion in United Kingdom Government policy over and before this period.

I'm used to, and I've got a lot of sympathy with, the Conservatives' wish to thump their drums this afternoon, and let them do it. But what you can't do is to build a politics and build a policy on dishonesty. Darren Millar was absolutely right. He came here in December and said, 'Boris Johnson has delivered a deal with the European Union that you said'—pointing to the Welsh Government—'he could never do'. And you were absolutely right to say that, because the Welsh Government, of course, made the mistake of taking Boris Johnson at his word. What Boris Johnson did in order to secure that deal, of course, was to essentially transfer Northern Ireland to the administration and the jurisdiction of the European Union.

That is what happened; 288 European law measures are force of law today in Northern Ireland, and that is an absolute fact. A border was driven down the Irish sea. The European Union said that they wanted to have a solution, and Boris Johnson told the tabloids that he was going to go fight off and fight for Blighty, and he got there, and he caved in, he gave in, he let down the people of Northern Ireland and he lied to the British Parliament. And that is absolutely clear. And, do you know, that level of drift and dishonesty has been the fundamental guiding strain of UK Government policy throughout this period—say one thing, do another. And we've seen a consequence of that in Ireland today. Of course, we've seen in the last few years a growth of 60 per cent in cross-border business between the Republic and Northern Ireland because, of course, you've now created what Sinn Fein has failed to do, actually, and Boris Johnson has succeeded in doing—creating an all-Ireland economy for the first time since partition, quite a way to celebrate his belief in the union.

And he's also done something different, something very different, and Liz Truss spoke about this in The Times on Saturday. Again, the Conservatives speak about the trade deals that they've done in different parts of the world, but what impact does that have on this country? What impact does it have on Wales? We talk about the potential trade deal with the Pacific countries, but what they don't tell you is that the uplift in gross domestic product according to their own numbers is 0.08 per cent. Zero point zero eight per cent. Global Britain couldn't even pay for its own yacht. [Laughter.] And the reality is that that doesn't even pay for the cost of leaving the single market, and the jobs and the opportunities that are lost as a consequence of it. So, it's fundamentally dishonest.

I'm really proud of the fact that my constituency voted overwhelmingly to leave the EU. At the time in 2016 of the referendum, the Vale of Clwyd had a Labour Assembly Member who disagreed with the outcome of the vote, and like her colleagues on the Labour and Plaid benches, they did all they could to undermine Brexit. Aberavon, Alyn and Deeside, Blaenau Gwent, Bridgend, Caerphilly, Clwyd South, Cynon Valley, Delyn, Wrexham—the list goes on.

Today, the Vale of Clwyd is represented in both Parliaments by the Welsh Conservatives—Welsh Conservatives who respect the wishes of their constituents and have pledged to do all we can to ensure Brexit is a success. Unfortunately for the people of my constituency, and many other 'leave'-voting constituencies, Labour chose to waste the past five years trying to circumvent the referendum. Instead of abiding by the wishes of the 56.5 per cent of my constituents who decided Wales was better off outside the European Union, Labour, with the help of Plaid, tried every conceivable trick to keep us under the heel of Brussels. Apart from jobs for the boys, our membership of the EU has failed to deliver real benefits for my constituency or our nation. Yes, we received billions of pounds in structural funds, but those schemes totally failed to secure lasting benefits for the people of Wales in general, and my constituents in particular.

The Vale of Clwyd is home to the poorest ward in Wales, and the highest proportion of the most deprived, lower super output areas. We have the third highest rate of premature deaths in Wales; 37 per cent of our adult population have a long-term limiting health condition; a staggering 23 per cent of children fail to achieve the foundation phase; and we have the highest percentage of adults claiming benefits in Wales. Our membership of the EU didn't deliver improvements to the lives of my constituents. In fact, the membership of the moribund protectionist bloc has held us back.

Five years ago, the majority of the voting public voted to throw off the yoke of the dysfunctional bureaucracy and look to a wider world. We voted to free ourselves from rules designed to benefit French farmers and German car manufacturers rather than shop owners in Prestatyn and B&B operators in Rhyl. Instead of listening to their voters and the people of this great union, Labour have chosen to do all they can to undermine our future outside the EU. The Welsh Government have done all they can to keep us shackled to the EU's red tape and bureaucracy. Thankfully, we have a Conservative Government at the helm of the UK—a Conservative Government that is determined to leave behind the protectionism of the EU and pursue tariff-free trade with the wider world. In comparison, our Welsh Government threatened to damage free trade between UK home nations by proposing the UK internal market Act. If they had the power to do so, this Welsh Government would drag us back to a stagnating European Union, but thankfully that's not within their gift.

I have learnt a lot in the last five years, and I think one of the most important things that I've learnt is that people want us to stop getting at each other, to work with each other, and to concentrate on the future of the people of Wales.

I have to say I am surprised at the tone of some of the remarks in this debate, and I guess I don't think they're necessary. Brexit was divisive and painful; let's rise above those times. I want to concentrate on the present and how we can continue to support our people in Wales, including farmers and businesses. I hope we see this as an opportunity and a need to simplify arrangements for businesses that import and export to Europe. Some are really struggling with the new regulations and rules, which is a concern given the economic impact of the pandemic. There is also a need to create new governance arrangements and standards, focusing on environmental protections and food standards. Opportunities need to be created and enabled by the UK Government, working with the Welsh Government. And finally, for our farmers, this is a quote from the chair of the Farmers Union of Wales:

'so in a deal that allowed damaging access for Australian foodstuffs we would be gaining very little and selling our farmers and standards down the river, all for the sake of a Government press release saying "we’ve got a trade deal".'

Can I, in finishing, respectfully appeal to my colleagues in the Conservatives that they liaise with Conservatives in Westminster to ensure that trade deals really deliver a good deal for our Welsh farmers and that doesn't sell them down the river? Please, let's talk to each other and about each other with respect. Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I felt compelled to make a contribution to this debate, largely because, like Jane, I have been struck by the tone of much of what I have heard here today. Maybe it's his naturally jovial temperament, but I almost thought Darren Millar was just enjoying this—rubbing our faces in it, if you like, five years on from that referendum result.

There were serious consequences to that result. We have moved on, we have left the European Union, but anybody who denies those serious consequences is doing a real disservice to the people of their own constituencies—and yes, I know you want to make a mark here in this new Parliament, but you're doing a disservice to Wales.

Let me just mention quickly the food sector in my constituency. Any deal—and yes, there are a number of them, Darren Millar—any deal is not necessarily a good deal, and I know how concerned farmers in my constituency are about the consequences of that Australian deal. I know how devastated shellfish farmers have been in my constituency because of the impact of leaving the European Union. I can tell you about one food exporter in my constituency—excellent exporter. Thirty per cent of its ice cream would go to the European Union. It would take an order, it would put together that order—small-ish batches, altogether coming to big orders, creating jobs and maintaining jobs in my constituency. They'd take the order and they would fulfil it. Now, they take the order—you can't send small batches to European Union countries anymore, you have to fill a wagon, because you bring a vet—a vet—into your factory here on Anglesey and in your constituencies to pass off that ice cream and sign it off. Then you have an export agent; then you have an import agent in the country that you're exporting to. One load of ice cream had to be sent three times before it was allowed into the Netherlands. The manufacturer didn't make a penny on that export load, and the reality now is that that company will not be exporting, probably, in the future. Now, that is a serious consequence of leaving the European Union, whether you voted for that or not.

Now, I'm serious about seeking the best for Wales in this new context, but a lot of what we have heard today has been pretty desperate jingoism and Wales and the Senedd deserve better than that.

I call the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution, Mick Antoniw.

Diolch, Llywydd. In the five years since the referendum, we've debated the outcome on numerous occasions. Each time, we have made it clear that we respect the outcome of that referendum. In fact, we respect it more than the Members opposite, because we also respect the outcome together with the promises that were made to protect Wales and the Welsh economy. The Members opposite show a contemptuous disregard for those promises and I cannot recall a single occasion when they have stood up for Wales, even when it became blatantly clear that those promises were being violated.

We have spent five years working as constructively as possible, providing evidence-based analyses and policy, time and time again, in an attempt to do whatever we could to make sure that the outcome that the UK Government negotiated mitigated the economic, cultural and social damage to Wales as far as was possible, and, throughout, we have been consistently clear that the deal negotiated by the UK Government failed to protect the Welsh economy and Welsh workers from the economic upheaval that we time and time again predicted.

Yet, with a competent and caring UK Government, it could have been so, so different. Instead, we have been delivered a trade agreement of gargantuan incompetence, which now threatens our economic and political stability, the fragmentation of the UK, and the undermining of peace in Northern Ireland.

The impact on our economy is clear: reduced trade, as the Office for Budgetary Responsibility is forecasting, and, as a result of the EU trade agreement, that both exports and imports will be around 15 per cent lower in the UK; a hit to the UK's long-term productivity, with the OBR forecasting productivity to fall by 4 per cent as a consequence of the trade agreement; trade being diverted away from the ports in Wales, with volumes of trade remaining well below historic levels, as goods are incentivised to move directly through Northern Ireland into GB markets.

Major implications to key sectors in Wales: food and drink exports to the EU down 47 per cent in the first quarter of 2021; new barriers to trade for live seafood exports to our main markets in Europe, which are threatening the existence of entire sectors in Wales. Risks from the UK Government's approach to new trade deals: the agreement with Australia poses significant risks to the agri-food sector in Wales, which could face competition from increased imports from Australian beef and lamb producers, who do not have to meet the same standards as our producers in areas like animal welfare.

And, as we debated here last week, despite the promises made at the time of the referendum and afterwards, the UK Government is pursuing an agenda of aggressive centralisation and attacking Welsh devolution, and they do not even hide it. The only people who don't seem to be aware of it are the Welsh Conservatives.

Using the financial assistance powers of the internal market Act, powers that were designed to seize functions that sit within the competence of the Senedd and Welsh Government, they are robbing the people of Wales of money that we were promised and are entitled to. Wales may receive as little as £10 million through the shared prosperity fund in its pilot year of 2021, when we would have had access to at least £375 million annually from January 2021 for new EU structural funds programmes, on top of the receipts for commitments to projects that we've already made via the current EU funding programmes.

Neither is there any substance to the UK levelling-up fund, with local authorities in Wales likely to receive less than £450,000 a year. Not only do these funds represent a huge cut from what Wales could have expected to receive, they also represent a blatant power grab, which goes against what was decided by the UK Parliament in the Government of Wales Acts and endorsed in two referenda, which the Welsh Conservatives so easily seem to forget.

James Evans to reply to the debate.

Diolch, Llywydd. And not a single person opposite in Labour or Plaid Cymru has talked about the positives of Brexit, and it's a shame. The Minister talks about undermining democracy. I'll take no lectures from Labour about undermining democracy, because that's what your party have been doing for the last five years.

Five years ago today, the people of Wales and the United Kingdom, they stood up to the elites, the academics, the champagne socialists and the doomsday predictors, both in the UK and across the world. And, as my Conservative colleagues have said, the people rose up against the establishment and voted to leave the European Union. And, as has been said, it was the biggest democratic vote in our country's history. And Mr Rhys ab Owen talks about respect—it's a shame Plaid Cymru cannot respect the will of the British and Welsh people. As we've seen, project fear knew no bounds, because the doomsday forecasters were all around. We were told we would have no food, no medicine, no imports, no exports and our stock markets would crash. And the people who sit in this place pushed that scaremongering agenda, and, five years on, those people who predicted doom were proven wrong. Many who sat in here, and across the UK, spent the last five years trying to stop democracy and stop the will of the people of Wales and the United Kingdom who voted to leave. Thankfully, in 2019, as my colleague Darren Millar has said, the British people endorsed the Conservative Prime Minister, Boris Johnson, overwhelmingly voting Conservative for the first time right across Wales to get Brexit done, and, by God, we got Brexit done.

Labour talk about centralisation and a power grab. This Conservative Government in Westminster wants to level up the whole of Wales, and the problem is that the Conservatives don't trust this Labour Welsh Government to level up the whole of Wales. It'll be focused in your Labour heartlands, abandoning people and their communities for years to come.

I myself campaigned to leave the European Union, along with many others on these Conservative benches, and wider, who believed we were better off outside the European Union. As my colleague Gareth Davies has said, his constituents said the EU held them back. So, we went out there, we pounded the streets with a positive message of Wales outside the European Union, taking control, as Sam Rowlands has said, of our borders, our money and our laws, free from the shackles of unelected commissioners who are accountable to no-one. We on these Conservative benches, as mentioned by Mark Isherwood, look forward to a global vision for Wales as part of a global United Kingdom, grasping those opportunities, reaching into emerging markets and using our influence for good in an ever-changing world.

Okay—

—have wide-ranging new powers transferred from the EU and, I hope, that we all believe are best decided by those elected here in Wales for the Welsh people. That is what Plaid Cymru want, so I hope you support that. From agriculture to sport to air quality, flood-risk management to forestry, the Welsh Government now has an arsenal to make these regulations work for Wales and get rid of the over-bureaucratic EU red tape in order to improve our nation and the lives of the people of Wales.

Politicians of all colours can no longer shy away from the difficult decisions or the policy choices. We can't blame the EU for their inaction or failings. Now, we all have a responsibility for our actions and to produce the results that the people of Wales want. I'd love to say that I have more confidence in this Government with the powers it has to improve the lives of the people of Wales, to boost employment, to grow the economy and make this a Wales that works for everyone, but I don't. But I am a positive person, Llywydd, and I hope to be convinced by the Government, but the proposed UBI, a tourism tax and a ban on roads makes me wonder whatever is coming next. And I will sum up, Llywydd.

It's ironic, though, that the socialist Welsh Labour Government, the nationalists in Plaid Cymru—and most likely supported by the sole Lib Dem, whatever they support this week—have done their standard 'delete all' to our motion and put forward their negative narrative about Brexit, even though most of their constituencies voted to leave. And Alun Davies, you've chuntered all the way through, and your constituency voted overwhelmingly to leave. Yet again you were quite happy to accept the result when they voted—

I think you did—. I think you did promise me that you were bringing it to an end—

Yes, I'll finish up now, Llywydd. So, let's make the most of this historic vote—

—but then you decided to tackle Alun Davies again.

—and build a Wales—. Let's build a Wales that the people of our country deserve: a global Wales, a strong and prosperous Wales, a Wales in a strong, global Britain, a Wales that delivers for the people's priorities. Diolch, Llywydd.

Okay. The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections. We will therefore defer voting until voting time.

And we will now move to voting time, but we will take a short break to prepare for the vote.

That brings us to voting time, and the vote on the Welsh Conservative debate on departure from the European Union. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 14, no abstentions, 40 against. And therefore the motion is not agreed.

The next vote is on amendment 1. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call for a vote on amendment 1 in the name of Siân Gwenllian. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 12, no abstentions, 42 against. And therefore the amendment is not agreed.

Amendment 2. I call for a vote on amendment 2, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 28, no abstentions, 26 against. And therefore, the amendment is agreed.

The final vote is on the motion as amended.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 28, no abstentions, 26 against. And therefore the motion as amended is agreed.

That concludes voting time, and we will therefore move to the short debate, and the first short debate today is to be presented by Jack Sargeant. I call Jack Sargeant to make his presentation. Jack Sargeant.

Diolch, Llywydd. Can I start by declaring an interest as an immensely proud member of both Unite and Community unions? I have agreed, Llywydd, to give my co-chair of the Senedd Unite group, the Member for Bridgend, Sarah Murphy, a minute of my time and also colleagues Carolyn Thomas and Mike Hedges.

Over the last year, we have seen our communities and working people pull together to help each other and keep each other safe, workers in so many spheres making huge sacrifices: in our hospitals and care homes, in our vaccination centres, delivering food and essential items, keeping our communities clean and our homes safe and so much more besides. Deputy Llywydd, in the Labour movement, we have a word for this pulling together: we call it solidarity.

We also saw at Airbus and the local partners from the local supply chain the example of the ventilator challenge: workers putting their lives on hold to switch production to ventilators at a moment's notice. Non-engineers will not understand how difficult that is. What those workers did was miraculous and saved lives. Six months of normal ventilator production in just one day. And I repeat that: six months of normal ventilator production in just one single day.

We must look back on this last year and recognise that we need a fairer deal for working people in this country and that Governments at both ends of the M4 should be looking to reward working people and the organisations that represent them with a greater say and more protections. I, for one, hugely welcome the work the Minister is doing to place social partnership at the heart of this Welsh Labour Government.

As representatives of proud manufacturing communities in the north-east of Wales, we see countless examples of the amazing work that trade unions—and in particular shop stewards like Unite's Daz Reynolds—do for our communities. Again, the work done at Airbus last year by Daz and Unite Wales the Union, to secure jobs, was a shining example of social partnership in action. Unions stepped in and negotiated a shorter working week, saving 360 highly skilled well-paid jobs.

Let's contrast that with what happens when employers do not work with unions and seek to undermine their workforce: the disgusting scandal of fire and rehire that seeks to lessen workers' terms and conditions with the threat of the sack if they don't agree. Such practices, as the First Minister so eloquently stated last week, have no place in Wales, and they have no place anywhere else. Deputy Llywydd, this practice is abhorrent, and we should all stand with unions to say it must stop. Warm words are not enough, and the UK Conservative Government should immediately ban fire and rehire. I, for one, am not interested in voluntary codes; working people need the full protection of the law.

In Wales we have a chance to lead the way and build solidarity and fairness for working people into everything we do. There are two ways to bring this about: for Governments to commit to working in partnership with people and trade unions, and for us all to join the union and stand in solidarity with our colleagues.

In closing, Deputy Llywydd, unions have delivered so much for working people: workplace safety, paid leave, the weekend and so much more, and it is high time that we empowered them to deliver a fairer deal for working people. Diolch yn fawr.

At the start I'll declare my interest as a proud member of Unite, Unison, CWU and GMB trade unions.

Thank you, Jack, for tabling this vital short debate today, and I echo everything that you've said. The position could not be clearer: the Tory UK Government has no intention of standing up for workers, so in their absence we must fight fire and rehire with solidarity and shame. Solidarity with our workers across all sectors facing this abhorrent choice, with our trade union brothers and sisters striking and fighting, and shame, because shame is a powerful motivator when it comes to these big businesses. Just look at how British Airways were shamed into ditching their fire and rehire plans.

So, that's why we need more of us here today to stand up and say, 'Shame on you British Gas, Asda, Sainsbury's via Argos, for threatening your staff with being fired if they don't take worse terms and conditions, and shame on you for treating your staff so poorly when they have worked so hard during this pandemic and boosted your profits and lined your shareholders' pockets. And shame on you, UK Government, for turning your back on working people when you could end fire and rehire, but you choose not to.'

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Can I thank Jack Sargeant for giving me a minute? I agree with everything that Jack Sargeant and Sarah Murphy have said about fire and rehire, but I am not going to rehearse that. I'm going to move on to another topic about how workers are treated so badly, and that's wages.

The minimum wage was brought in over 20 years ago, but we've now reached the stage where we should be legislating for the real living wage. The real living wage is based on the cost of living and is currently voluntarily paid by over 7,000 employers. In April 2016, the Conservative Government introduced a higher minimum wage rate for all staff over 25 years of age, and misnamed it the national living wage. It is many things, but it is not a living wage.

The minimum wage is not calculated according to what employees and their families need to live. It is based on reaching 66 per cent of median earnings by 2024. Currently it is over £1 an hour less than the real living wage. What does that mean? It means that, for somebody working 40 hours, they get £40 less, and to many of them, that is their food bill for the week. And I think that is the point for people: many people are working full time and are still in poverty. People should not be in poverty when they're working full-time. We need people to be paid a real living wage, and driving down wages and paying everybody the minimum wage does nothing for improving people's productivity, and does nothing for people's lives.

I thank Jack for bringing this debate to the Senedd, and for all he does to support workers and industry in north-east Wales. In my personal experience as a postwoman, I have seen how driving for productivity and efficiency is forcing us into unrealistic working hours. The Communication Workers Union successfully fought against franchising our brand and reduced wages for new starters, which would have created a two-tier workforce, but these wins keep getting attacked by the employer. As it stands, all new contracts are part-time, but you are expected to work full-time, which means the workforce do not get full holiday, pension entitlement or full sick pay, and cannot commit to another part-time job to ensure full-time employment. Privatisation, competitiveness and UK Government policies have pushed employment standards and wages to a new low and a race to the bottom. Give workers fair pay for fair work, and grow the economy that way. Diolch.

I call on the Deputy Minister for Social Partnership to reply to the debate—Hannah Blythyn.

Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer, and I want to start by thanking my colleague and constituency neighbour Jack Sargeant for bringing this debate in the Senedd today. As someone who has spent the vast majority of her working life working for a better deal at work, it's absolutely something that I welcome, and I share your commitment to a better deal for workers. I want all workers in Wales to be treated fairly and with respect, as it should be. Also, congratulations to you and Sarah Murphy on becoming co-chairs of the Unite group in the Senedd here, following in the footsteps of not just me but also the Deputy Presiding Officer.

I want to thank all Members who've contributed to this debate today, because these matters affect, as we've heard, the daily lives and livelihoods of people right across the length and breadth of Wales. And Jack Sargeant was right to talk about the example of Airbus, where it was really to pay tribute and a testament to what happens when the trade unions work together with the employers, and take a bold and brave decision. I know that there's a lot of credit to the work of Daz Reynolds and the team at Airbus in terms of doing that, and the work for us as a whole in taking that decision.

You will know that economic, social and environmental justice drives everything that we do as a Government, and the values of fair work and social partnership are central to that. Safe, secure and rewarding work is not just in the interest of workers but in the interest of employers, too. We know that a better deal for workers does not just make a difference in making workplaces better, it goes much further and is much more fundamental to the fabric of a stronger, better and fairer recovery and country. That is why this Welsh Government is committed to working towards fair work in Wales, working together in social partnership to make a lasting difference to lives and livelihoods.

Whilst employment rights, as we heard, remain reserved to the UK Government, we are committed to using every lever and power available to us to deliver fair work outcomes, using our social partnership approach and the power of the public purse to improve working practices, cultures and behaviours. The draft social partnership and public procurement Bill will put social partnership in Wales on a formal footing. It will strengthen socially responsible procurement, and it will place a social partnership duty on certain public bodies. And it will place a fair work duty on Welsh Ministers.

Thank you, Deputy Minister.

Item 9. I move to the second short debate, and I call on Janet Finch-Saunders to speak to the topic she has chosen.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I've agreed to give Samuel Kurtz, Sam Rowlands and James Evans a minute each to contribute to this important debate.

Now, the Minister knows, and maybe Members of this Senedd are not too aware, that sheep scab is a highly contagious and insidious disease that impacts on animal welfare and leads to economic losses. As you may or may not know, it is triggered by mites that live on the skin of the sheep, causing lesions, severe itching, loss of wool and, ultimately, a loss in production. A single mite can ultimately lead to an infection that spreads throughout a flock and also to neighbouring flocks. Infected sheep suffer from an intense pruritus that they will attempt to relieve by scratching to the point of ignoring all other activity whilst causing significant self-harm. Failure to properly treat this infection can cause serious economic losses due to rapid loss of body condition, low birth weights, higher lamb mortality from infected ewes and the downgrading or condemnation of carcasses at slaughter.

The severity of the situation is very clear when considering that, in 2010, a study identified 36 per cent of Welsh sheep farms as having an outbreak in the previous five years. Scab outbreaks were reported on 15.8 per cent of Welsh farms in 2015, and it is estimated that the cost of the disease to the industry in Wales could be in excess of £5 million per annum. So, we need to get a grip on this disease in this country, because if we don't, serious welfare and production implications will persist. Now, ADAS has considered the cost of delayed diagnosis and unsuccessful and inappropriate treatments, and the associated loss in production. The production losses were found to be in the region of £20 per ewe. For a 500-head flock, the costs of a misdiagnosed and poorly treated outbreak were deemed to be in the region of £10,000. The average flock in Wales is 700, which pushes the estimated production loss to around £14,000.

Current treatments for sheep scab infestations rely on either injectable endectocides based upon macrocyclic lactones—MLs—or organophosphate dips. Now, the use of these products to counter a scab infection will lead to lengthy and inconvenient meat withdrawal periods. So, there has to be the ultimate aim here in Wales for this to be eradicated, and this is achievable. Norway, Sweden and the USA have eradicated sheep scab. In fact, previous UK eradication programmes were successful; eradication was achieved here in 1952 and the UK remained free of sheep scab until it was reintroduced from Ireland in 1973. So, I believe, and I'm actually quite confident, that Wales, with the right support from the Welsh Government, can achieve the desired outcome again. In fact, I think this is a rare area of agricultural policy that we may actually agree on, Minister. Indeed, I welcome that Farming Connect have stated the following:

'The best long-term solution to scab treatment is to eradicate the disease from Wales and the rest of Britain. The best chance we have of achieving this is if farmers take a collaborative approach to tackling the disease.'

Now, you will be aware of the report, 'Tackling scab: a farmer-led approach', and the steps farmers in some areas are taking to improve levels of farm biosecurity, such as maintaining fencing and checking for gaps, shared rubbing areas, double fencing where possible, and co-ordinating treatments with neighbouring farmers. However, that project is due to end this year. Similarly, the interim measure of free examination of skin samples from sheep showing suspected clinical signs of scab ended on 31 March 2021. So, we need action now, and you have a key role to play in this, Minister.

In 2019, in January, you committed £5 million of Wales's rural development programme funding for sheep scab eradication. So, I'm not alone in being extremely disappointed that this has still not found its way to the industry. In response to a question asked on the matter at the NFU Cymru conference in November 2020, you actually recognised the importance of the finance being made available to support the industry initiative. Whilst you explained that you had to delay these millions—£5 million—because of COVID-19, I understand that you gave an assurance that the scheme was at the top of your priorities when looking at future budget allocations. However, by 15 March 2021—just two years later—you have toned down your commitment, as you wrote to the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee, and stated,

'It remains our intention to carry the requirement forward for future Wales RDP consideration, but can give no guarantee regarding the possibility of new and specific funding at this stage'.

The industry-led project to help eradicate the disease on farms had previously reached the stage of selecting a good express-of-interest application to take forward. As you have stated yourself, Minister, doing nothing is not an option. So, it is vitally important that the funding is made available and not redirected this time. In fact, I agree with NFU Cymru that the £5 million could be allocated from currently unspent funds from the Welsh Government European Union RDP. So, I do hope to hear a commitment from you today that you will do this. The slower you are, the longer Wales will face the problem identified by the Welsh sheep scab group in 2018—no eradication in part due to a lack of funding, multiple competing strategies, and a lack of co-ordination.

It is time to reprioritise the response to scab so that Wales can achieve the roll-out of the strategy developed by farmers, vets and technical experts, in order to lessen the impact of many of the problems discovered in previous programmes and to enhance high welfare in the sheep industry in Wales. We need to provide significant economic benefits to both individual farms and the industry as a whole. We need to improve knowledge and awareness, reduce the incidence of the disease without any legislative measures, and we need to see the five objectives of the Wales animal health and welfare framework achieved.

Minister, Senedd Members, our farmers across Wales are really suffering at the moment. They feel badly let down about the nitrate vulnerable zones. [Interruption.] It's not a laughing matter. They feel—

It's not.

It's not a laughing matter.

I did not laugh.

The thing is, they feel very let down about the NVZs, they feel very let down about your approach to bovine TB and not listening to the science of the vets. This is an opportunity now for you, Minister, to work with the farmers. Let's all try and eradicate sheep scab, and, please, release that £5 million that you have promised them. Thank you. Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd.

I would like to thank Janet Finch-Saunders for securing this important debate on sheep scab, and I always welcome activity in this place that highlights the difficulties that Welsh farmers face in feeding the nation.

The recent Amazon Prime programme Clarkson's Farm also did an excellent job in highlighting the difficulties that farmers face, as it followed journalist and tv presenter, Jeremy Clarkson in setting up and running his 1,000-acre farm over a 12-month period. Viewers of the programme will know of the anguish that Jeremy Clarkson felt when three of his ewes were struck down by mastitis and were taken to the abattoir, and the sorrow he felt when one of his rams had a sudden and unexpected death due to a twisted intestine. Farmers care deeply about their flock. Sheep scab, along with mastitis and twisted intestine, is yet another difficulty that sheep farmers face in trying to keep their flock healthy. I commend Janet for raising this important issue, and also Jeremy Clarkson for highlighting the life of the farmer in a raw and entertaining way. Diolch.

Sam Rowlands.

Thank you, Mr Deputy Presiding Officer, for calling me. Thank you to Ms Finch-Saunders for raising this important topic this afternoon. As somebody who's spend most of my working life behind a computer screen in an office, I'm not going to stand here and pretend to know the inner details of sheep scab. But I was certainly struck by the references Ms Finch-Saunders made to the allocated funding, which doesn't seem to have been delivered so far. So, I just want to stand here this afternoon and support the calls for that funding to be delivered to that sector as quickly as possible. As I said, as somebody who doesn't know much about the disease itself, certainly hearing about it and the effects it has on our farmers and on the animal welfare certainly as well—it's about time that this was eradicated here in Wales. And if that money can be released as quickly as possible to allow our farmers to work in the best way possible, for the sake of their livelihoods, and for the sake of the animals themselves as well, I'll certainly support that today. Thank you.

I just want to thank Janet Finch-Saunders for raising this very important topic today in the Chamber. Sheep scab is one of the biggest health issues facing sheep farms in my constituency. As a farmer myself, I've injected ivermectin into sheep and have also done dipping. I've also had an ivermectin injection in my own finger. So, I know exactly what it takes to treat sheep scab promptly. Because without proper treatment, people can have serious economic loss to the business and welfare issues for those sheep affected. The Minister knows this is a topic I'm quite keen on, because she and I have met in a previous life to discuss this.

There are solutions to the problem. In Scotland, sheep scab is a notifiable disease. Maybe this is something the Minister would consider, and maybe potentially a compulsory annual clearance of commons to treat sheep for scab to make sure, before they return to the commons, that they don't go back with any infection. I think it would also help if there was greater surveillance of the disease by Welsh Government, and, also, consideration given to the use of surveillance blood tests in the flocks that are using common land, because it is possible to use blood tests to detect the antibodies that the sheep who have been exposed to scab might have before they develop clinical signs of the disease.

I hope the Minister will take these points on board. As she knows, I'm very keen to work with her to address this problem, because it does affect our own farm and it's an absolute nightmare of a disease. Thank you.

I call on the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales, and Trefnydd to reply to the debate—Lesley Griffiths.

Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer. I quite agree with Janet Finch-Saunders; it is absolutely not a laughing matter. Sheep scab is one of the most contagious diseases of sheep in Wales, and it's a really difficult challenge to our sheep industry. Eradicating this disease is important not just to me but for everyone who cares about the health and welfare of our national flock. Affected animals can suffer greatly and this disease is major threat to sheep welfare. Bristol university, in a recent study, estimated that sheep scab costs the UK industry between £78 million and £202 million every year in terms of production losses and treatment expenses.

Therefore, I cannot emphasise enough the importance of industry working in partnership and sharing the responsibility of eradicating sheep scab from Wales with Government and the animal health and welfare framework group, who have long recognised this issue and made it a priority. Janet Finch-Saunders says that farmers need to take a collaborative approach to the disease, and then every Member who's contributed seems to put everything on the Welsh Government. We have had free testing, we ran a pilot scheme over the winter, and we have worked very closely with the industry in relation to sheep scab. The keepers of our 9.5 million ewes and lambs in Wales count on us all to work together if we are going to tackle this disease.

Here in Wales, the disease is addressed through the Wales animal health and welfare framework, and I want to remind Members of its goals, all of which are impacted upon by sheep scab. Wales has healthy, productive animals. Animals in Wales have a good quality of life. People trust and have confidence in the way food is produced. Wales has a thriving rural economy and Wales has a high-quality environment. I'll return to these goals as they really do relate to sheep scab. Our framework also sets out key principles in the way these goals will be achieved. They're particularly relevant to the effective control and eradication of sheep scab, so I would like to focus on them.

Firstly, the principle of prevention is better than cure, and this means that those who keep sheep have a responsibility to practise good biosecurity and prevent them from becoming infected with the sheep scab mite. Most sheep farmers in Wales of course do so as part of the health planning process with their vet, but some of their efforts are put at risk by a small minority who do not. Maintaining secure boundaries, investigating the health status before purchasing, quarantining newly bought-in sheep and using routine preventative measures are paramount to the stopping of the spread of scab.

Thank you, Minister. That brings today's proceedings to a close.

Have a safe journey home, everyone.