Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee

Welcome back, everyone, to our session this morning—. Yes, it is still morning, and we are still on our one-day inquiry on arts and creative industries. I'll ask our witnesses for our second evidence session to introduce themselves. I'll come to the witnesses online first of all. I'll turn first to Sara.

Bore da. I'm Sara Pepper. I'm the director of creative economy at Cardiff University.

Thank you, Sara. Clara.

Hello, everyone. I'm Clara Cullen. I'm the venue support manager at Music Venue Trust. We're a charity that represents grass-roots music venues in the UK, and I'm standing in today for our CEO, Mark Davyd, who can't be here today. Thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to speak. Hello.

Hi, diolch, Clara. Pauline.

Good morning. Bore da. I'm the chief executive of Ffilm Cymru Wales.

Thank you, Pauline, and Dyfrig in the room.

Good morning. Thank you for the opportunity. I am the newly appointed chair of TAC, representing the film, television, radio and digital sectors in Wales.

Fantastic. It's lovely to have you all with us this morning. I've just been explaining to Dyfrig; if you could just raise your hand if you want to come in on any question, because perhaps not everyone will want to come in on every question, and there are many issues that we want to cover. We'll go straight to questions, with Tom Giffard to start. Tom.

Thank you, Delyth, and good morning, everybody. It's lovely to have you with us in the committee today. I wanted to start by asking about Wales's place in the world. How do you think your sector should be used to promote Wales's place in the world?

Who wants to start? Dyfrig wants to come in, I think.

Yes. It's important that Wales is represented on film and tv as well as possible.

One of the things I think is important here, and this is where perhaps the Senedd has a role to play, is that there is scrutiny of who does what and in what language. We know, for example, that we have a very strong Welsh-medium sector in Wales, and foreign markets are extremely important for the work that is done. That's a point that needs to be taken into account, namely that it is possible for us, despite Brexit, to continue to access those markets and to work in partnership. We also need to scrutinise what Ofcom and the BBC are doing in terms of safeguarding the IP, the intellectual property, that producers have in Wales. That's important in moving forward, because in reality that's where the investment comes from. If you sell something and get money for that then you can invest back in the sector. And it's just as important—I know that members of TAC see this as very important, particularly those producing through the medium of English—that Wales and the people of Wales are fairly reflected by companies from Wales, if I may say so, at the international level, and that that can happen through the medium of English as well as Welsh.

Thank you, Dyfrig. Does anybody online want to add to that or want to give an answer? Pauline.

Yes. I mean, Wales, I think, should be seen as providers of world-class content and international collaborators that people around the world want to come and work with us, whether that's in Wales or whether we're going out and working elsewhere in the world with partners. I think that we certainly have seen, throughout our existence as a support of the sector, that we're one of the most active areas of the UK in terms of international co-production, for example. On average every year, at least 25 per cent of our slate are international co-productions and I really expect that to continue to be the case, because we have relevant stories that resonate around the world.

Thank you, Pauline. Sara or Clara?

Thank you. Excellent points made there. I think the importance of the creative industries from Wales is taking them to the world to show the world what Wales has to offer in terms of talent, and capability, and skills, and our landscape at the very least, of what is happening here in Wales as a sector, but what we can offer for people to come to Wales to come and make work here as well. It's very important. Some of the stories that are made here are telling the story of Wales as well, are showcasing Wales as a nation, our identity as well as our industry, and that needs to travel and that's very important, as well as bringing eyes back here to come and work here to engage with what's happening here. So, I think it's important, from an industry perspective, a culture perspective, potentially a tourism perspective, and a storytelling and narrative identity and brand perspective.

Great. Clara, unless you wanted to come in, we'll go back to Tom.

I was just going to add that I think from the Music Venue Trust perspective, our engagement with the Creative Wales body, which was relatively new for us during the pandemic, really, showed to us the capabilities of that type of partnership and why it's so important to have those types of organisations and bodies and us interacting with them, both to represent grass-roots music venues in Wales, but it helps create new partnerships that didn't exist previously, and that was really important for us and something that really came out through the pandemic, actually.

Lovely. Tom.

Thanks. Obviously, the Welsh Government has an international strategy. I'm just curious to know what level of engagement, either directly, indirectly, or not at all, you've had with that international strategy. It would be good to hear whether you have or you haven't. It would be good to know the level of engagement you've had with that international strategy.

Sara, first.

I'll happily come in on that first. So, in the work that we do around Clwstwr, which is a £10 million innovation programme working directly with the screen and news sectors in Wales, we've worked quite closely with the Welsh Government international relations team, being very mindful of what that strategy is, and working with the resources that are in place with the offices that are located around the world. Predominantly, in our case, we've worked with the offices based in mainland Europe, but we are expanding that to the offices in Canada and the US as well. I have to say they have proved excellent counsel and expertise in enabling us to use the offices themselves, the facilities, for networking events, but they have also used their networks to engage with contacts, connections, commercial potential collaborators and support environments within those nations so that we can grow our network, so that we can really get into the parts of the sector that we might not have had connections to ourselves. So, we've had very supportive working relations with those partners. I am aware that Creative Wales are—as, obviously, Clara just said quite right there—a very new organisation, just a couple of years in existence, but I'm aware that they are going to be developing an international strategy. We do engage with them regularly to share the international activity that we're having, that we're doing and that we're engaging in. It's so important for everybody to be aware of what's happening so we don't replicate and so that we can add value. So, there's a conversation with them as well in this space, and other partners, like for example, Pauline at Ffilm Cymru Wales and other support organisations so that we can try and enable the best for Wales and the companies we're working for and not replicate.

Yes. Dyfrig wants to come in, I think.

Yes, just to add to that by saying that TAC and TAC members, through the years, with the support of Welsh Government and the support of broadcasters, have been visiting markets and film festivals across the world. Of course we want that to continue, and that's why a conversation with Creative Wales in moving forward is going to be very important, and I'm pleased to hear that there will be an international strategy. Without a doubt, it's an important way forward for us, and that Brexit, for example, allows that to happen easily. That's an important thing. But I'm sure we will come to that.

We will certainly come to Brexit, without a doubt, yes. Did anyone have anything to add to that before we go back to Tom? Pauline.

Yes. I mean, I would say that we had really quite extensive engagement with the Minister at the time and her officials in terms of the formulation of that strategy. They really listened to which territories around the world were already important, and we expected to continue to be important, including Europe as a very significant partner, and to looking at what networks were really important for the talent that we're working with; so, Cine-Regio, for example, which is a network of 49 European film funds that are very engaged in working with Wales. So, that was a very positive relationship and I think all of the officers were very accessible, very available, so from time to time if any particular producers want to go and they have even very particular meetings and particular projects that they want to look at potential collaborators on the ground, those officers are always available for them to talk to and to help them access those territories, which is really helpful. I do think it will be important—because we've had this kind of enforced lull in international activity with COVID—that Creative Wales's strategy really brings to the forefront how we support businesses in their forward partnerships, the productions that they go on to do, the kind of trade presence that they have, the trade missions, their attendance, to develop new relationships and new territories, and that will require financial support as well and it needs to be quite flexible, so I'm really looking forward to those conversations with Creative Wales. They've been very open and collaborative in all their work to date.

Tom, was there anything else that you wanted to add?

Can I just follow up? From the three answers we had there, I think it was only Pauline that mentioned a kind of role in formulating that strategy, so I'm interested to know from Sara or Dyfrig—I think Sara mentioned about the kind of work within the strategy and we're mindful of what the strategy was, and Dyfrig talked about visiting markets and film festivals—but to what extent are you being consulted, if at all, on the formulation of that strategy, and how do you know whether what you're doing is successful? Are there targets, are there metrics that the Welsh Government use?

Sara, and then I'll come to Dyfrig. Sara?

So, we weren't involved directly in the development of the strategy. I think the timing of perhaps when Clwstwr came online meant that that strategy was already in place, and therefore, for us, it was a case of being mindful of what that was, alongside other international strategies in play in different partner institutions and so on and being responsive to them.

In terms of metrics for success, sorry, Tom, can I just clarify, was your question about metrics for success on Welsh Government activity or on our activity relating to Welsh Government activity?

Well, you obviously mentioned that you're mindful of the Welsh Government's sort of international strategy, so how do you know that you're meeting those criteria? Are Welsh Government kind of—? How do Welsh Government monitor that, if at all?

How do Welsh Government monitor what we're doing?

Yes.

Well, I suppose through the relationship that we have with Creative Wales and us feeding back to them, and also colleagues in the international relations team. I mean, it feels—I think a lot of that work has been happening for a while, so for us, it's about slotting in and adding value to what's already in train, as well as being open and receptive to new opportunities, because whilst there is a strategy, I suppose we also have our operating strategy, so we have to be mindful that there might be some territories that are outside of that that would be advantageous for us to move into. So, I suppose it's being aware of that environment and adding value and maximising it, and then also being open to other opportunities that exist.

And it's important to say at this moment: I think we haven't talked about this in terms of the opening question—Wales to the world, and thinking about the international strategy—is thinking about digital. Because actually, that's a whole territory—if you want to refer to it as that—of its own that has come rapidly into play in the last two years in a greater way than we've ever seen before. And so as much as we need to be mindful of real territories and enabling activity within those, digital is one mechanism for enabling us to do that safely, coherently, and actually in a really sort of well-thought-through way.

One thing that we've seen a real advantage of in the last two years of lockdown—and I recently shared this with the international relations team; I was talking to the head of that department at Welsh Government and was saying that we've made really firm relationships with international partners over the last two years. Rather than getting on a plane and immediately going to see people when there was no relationship built, we've given the time and the resource to have online communications, develop firm footings of relationships, develop a strategic imperative, and now if we go and visit them next year, if that's safe to do so, and appropriate to do so, we're in a much better position. So, I think the digital and the technology and the result of lockdown has also potentially encouraged us all to think slightly differently about how we're doing this work, and will enable it to enact differently in the future, in my opinion.

Thank you, Sara. We'll have to move on in a moment, but I do want to come back to Dyfrig, because Tom had asked Dyfrig specifically on that point also.

Well, we have been an informal part of drawing up the strategy. We are aware that that is happening, but there has been a change of chair, and changes in terms of day-to-day management. So, I can't give the full detail in terms of how many meetings we've attended. In terms of the metrics for success, it's difficult, and I accept that. If it were possible for you to come up with a means of measuring success, I'm sure we'd be happy to collaborate with you on that. I'm not sure if you're looking at the number of projects or how much money is coming in or even the impact in moving into the future, because if you do succeed in getting one thing over the line internationally, as it were, it often leads to other things indirectly. So, it's difficult to measure, but I accept that it does need to be measured.

Yes, those issues are something that we will want to look at over the coming months and years. I'm sure that we'll be able to collaborate with you on that.

I'm sorry, we'll have to move on, unless, Tom, there was anything else that you wanted to come back on. No. So, we'll move to Hefin David.

Well, Dyfrig mentioned this, but, more specifically, how could we increase the provision of the Welsh language and the use of the language in your sectors?

Dyfrig, do you want to start?

Well, TAC operates entirely bilingually, and of course we promote the Welsh language in all ways possible. Within the sector, I think it's hugely important that, when we train and bring new people in, they are aware of the importance of the Welsh language within the sector. That is to say, if you decide to come to work in the creative sphere in Wales, it's a bilingual sphere, and so if you have two languages, then all the better. We need to promote that and I wholly accept that there is more to be done. I'm not reticent in saying that in any way whatsoever, but I think, with the help of Government, the right noises are being made. The Welsh language is more important than ever and has been given greater equality, too.

Did anyone online want to respond to Hefin's question there?

Yes, Sara.

And then Pauline. Sara first.

It's just a quick point. I think Dyfrig's point is an excellent one—that we need to raise awareness of the potential for working bilingually, and the importance of us recruiting a fully bilingual workforce for the creative sector. I think our work engages in encouraging businesses to undertake innovation activity and developing new products, services and experiences to get to the market to grow the creative sector. I think we need to do more. We do a fair bit of work in this space, working with partners like S4C and other colleagues to encourage those products, services and experiences to be through the Welsh medium, not just for consumption in Wales but further afield, and we've seen some excellent examples of that in other minority language nations where they've done that to great effect. So, I think we all need to do our part to encourage the use of Welsh language in all parts of the creative workforce in all ways that the creative workforce are working, whether it's in commissions, in productions, in innovation activity, in taking the work internationally, and so on. We must put that at the forefront of our messaging.

Thank you for that, Sara. Pauline, did you want to come in? And then I'll come to Clara.

I'd agree with everything that Sara's just said there. Certainly, at Ffilm Cymru we do provide all of our services bilingually, whether we're working in a training context or whether we're working at production and development level, in funding, et cetera. I think it's really important, and Government has a role to play in this as well, that we really promote the successes as well when we have Welsh language successes. For example, right now we have a feature film called Gwledd/The Feast. It's sold all over the world, and it's just been released this week in the US. It's getting fantastic reviews, it has a Welsh producer, Welsh writer, Welsh director—all of the talent is Welsh in it, and it's really great to get behind that. That film was backed actually by Welsh Government's office in New York for screening over there, which I think is important, going back to the point about using your international offices as well, and getting that awareness of being able to work in both languages right out there for all collaborators to be aware of.

Thank you for that. Clara.

I think, from a Music Venue Trust perspective and a grass-roots music venue perspective, a lot of our venues in Wales really do see themselves as cultural incubators, and they're stages and rooms where artists can get their first performances and start building their fan bases, and things like that. And so, the role of venues in helping to cultivate and strengthen the Welsh music scene, and bands that are coming out from those towns and cities, I think, is really important for how that plays into supporting and strengthening the Welsh language as well, because there are bands and artists that perform, and want to perform, exclusively in Welsh. Things like the Welsh Music Prize, as well—I think the winners were announced this morning—and how it intersects with the grass-roots scene is really important, because everything starts at that level and then it grows, and momentum builds behind it.

Thank you, Clara. Back to Hefin.

Thank you. May I ask what you believe the committee should prioritise for the next five years, and what should the Welsh Government prioritise in future, too?

So, important, big questions there. Dyfrig has taken his mask off, so I'll go to Dyfrig first.

From our perspective within TAC, we are highly aware of the need to retain and develop staff, and to attract new people. So, we must recognise that the skills base in Wales is huge, and you hear that from the evidence that we've heard of the success of authors and films. But there is a problem now and a problem in moving to the future, which is that a large number of freelancers have decided to leave the sector because of instability, and that instability was mainly caused by COVID. It's also true to say that S4C is still awaiting information on its financial settlement, and I know that that should be made public quite soon, but that's created instability and, of course, the way that the BBC has been in a similar position. I hope that announcing the financial settlements will assist matters.

But, training, training, training is what I would say to start with, and that includes apprenticeships, it includes providing opportunities to young people to come into the industry. It's now an industry that needs people to be multiskilled, but, let's be honest, there is a huge shortage at the moment and, obviously, going forward, in terms of camera work, audio, lighting, all of those techniques, as well as editing and jobs relating to production management and areas such as research and production. This is true across the whole creative sector, not just film and television. It's true of digital, and that is something that we need to take into account in moving to the future.

So, that's where I think the priority should be now and, of course, that will have to lead to the development of skills for the next phase. I don't want to take too much time, but the support provided now, which you'll be aware of, such as the restart schemes, it would be excellent if those could be extended. So, those are the main things, in my view.

Thank you for that, Dyfrig. I know that this is a huge question to answer, and it's a very important one. But, as we're quite short of time, if anybody wants to add anything, could you please be as succinct as possible, on such a huge area? We'll come to Pauline first, and then Clara, and then Sara, as everyone wants to contribute. Okay, Pauline.

I appreciate it's an enormous question. To top line, then, our priorities for you in terms of a suggestion or recommendation would be skills, the green agenda and further cultural recovery funds, specifically around cinemas. So, just to very briefly tap into that, from a skills perspective in the creative industries for screen, we've got huge demand—unprecedented demand—across all of the different jobs that you can imagine behind the camera, and a lot of these involve transferrable skills. So, whether it's looking at construction, painting and decorating, administration, finance, driving, catering, all of these jobs that we have right the way across our economy are in significant demand in the screen sector. So, we're very interested in things like short conversion courses that can help people transfer across sectors into where there are jobs, and they are well paid, high-quality jobs in a growth sector. And we do need to put proper funding into this and to really accelerate the skills strategy around creative industries. So, that would be an absolute top priority for us.

From a green sector point of view, I'm working very closely with Sara, both at Clwstwr and with the new media.cymru bid, which Sara will add into. And we have the green strand as our particular focus, which is looking at new products and services that can enable the sector to have green choices in the way that they work, looking particularly at things like transport, waste disposal, and energy for our sector. So, how do we make those choices easier for people working in the sector?

And from a cultural recovery fund point of view, just to really say, cinemas have had an incredibly tough time. The cultural recovery funds that have been available have been vital to actually enabling them to continue to exist, but they continue to have a tough time. We know that the mandatory COVID passes have recently come into play, we've seen significant downturn in cinema admissions off the back of that, and I think, actually, that's probably not so much to do with the fact that the pass is there, but how it's been introduced. There's a lack of information and understanding about who it applies to and how, and marketing aspects. And I'm fully expecting that venues will need further financial support as a result.

Thank you, Pauline. That may well be something that we come back to later on in the session. Forgive me for keeping on asking for brief answers, but it's because time is really against us. Sara, if I could ask for as top-line an answer as possible, please.

Absolutely. It's a huge area, but I think the important considerations for this committee and for the Government are about supporting recovery and then building resilience post COVID, and creating the conditions for businesses, for what was business as usual, whatever the future of that looks like. And then, looking at some absolute cross-cutting themes that are going to be essential going forward, some of which have been mentioned—digital and technology, skills, Brexit, future jobs and talent pipeline, particularly with a thought around freelancers, and net-zero requirements and opportunity. And then, certainly from my perspective, a big consideration of the role that innovation and research and development can play in that to support the growth and development of the sector in the future.

Diolch, Sara. Ac yn olaf, Clara.

I think, for music venues, the big one is owning their own venues. Venue operators need to own their own venues in order to create long-term resilience and sustainability. If they were to do that, they could then improve things like ventilation. At the moment, they can't take that long-term mindset because, essentially, they're improving a venue for a private landlord. So, things like ownership, moving into benevolent forms of ownership, community share offers. I know that the Le Public Space in Newport was one of the first venues, not only in Wales but in the entire UK, to take that model and that made them a lot more resilient during the pandemic.

And then, secondly, I think, for venues and funding generally, grass-roots music venues were able to access funding in Wales, really for the first time, and that kind of opened the cultural envelope for them and it made a huge difference. So, I think continuing that access to funding, continuing to recognise grass-roots music venues as culturally relevant by Welsh Government and the culture committee and Creative Wales is incredibly important. So, I'd like to see that going forward as well.

Thank you for that. I'm sorry, we will have to move on, but if there's anything additional that you would like to send in in writing, we'd be very grateful for that additional information as well. We'll move on to Heledd Fychan.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, a diolch ichi i gyd. I just wanted to start by picking up on Pauline's point about the cultural recovery fund and perhaps just a quick question to start off with in terms of whether all the panel agrees that there should be a third cultural recovery fund.

So, Clara is nodding her head, certainly. Does anyone disagree?

No. That's helpful, thank you. I said it would be a brief 'yes' or 'no' there. If I may, you've emphasised to us, as did the previous panel, in terms of skills and the challenges both pre COVID as well as being exacerbated by COVID, with people leaving the sectors, and so on, because of challenges. What do you think are the barriers, or how can we best support developing skills now so that we are able to upskill people or train people to join this incredibly important sector? What would you like to see being done now to address that gap in terms of skills?

Who wants to go first? Dyfrig.

Well, one of the things that I would welcome would be to extend opportunities for apprenticeships. That is, not just for those who've decided to study a degree or similar, but in terms of apprenticeships and getting people in to learn practical skills—and we've heard mention of this already; that would be a major step forward—and then how they go hand in hand with mentoring.

And in terms of training, and that's what we're talking about here as we provide people with an opportunity to gain new skills, TAC does a great deal of this with the support of S4C already, in that we hold a number of short courses. A lot of them are online. Over 500 people participated last year. We've been offering those courses free of charge to freelancers, and then that leads people to join us with the right skill set.

So, apprenticeships, I'd say, short courses, and not thinking that it has to be a course that goes on over many months or years. Mentoring is also going to be very important, because companies should be mentored in terms of how to deal with apprentices, because I sometimes feel that companies perhaps don't know exactly how to provide the best opportunities to apprentices and to develop them to work in the sector.

Does anybody want to add anything? Pauline.

I'd like to see Creative Wales working in partnership with their skills colleagues in Government to really accelerate the skills strategy, from which the funding priorities will flow. I think it's really important because of the scale of the challenge. As I touched on before, we are talking about skills that are not siloed to the creative sector but are applicable more widely, so we need to be sighted to what are all the levers within Government available to respond to the skills needs. I would really urge Government to be looking at what is an inclusive skills strategy within that.

I would point to one of our own programmes, Foot in the Door, as an example that looks particularly at socioeconomic exclusion. We work in partnership with housing associations, job centres, grass-roots organisations, to facilitate people into the industry and apply the skills they have. So, what is already out there that can be scaled and replicated and built upon? I think that's really important. And, to add to the previous point around apprenticeships, I think in the creative industries it's particularly important that we look at shared apprenticeships, because it's very difficult on project-to-project level business to make this sort of standard apprenticeship programme work for the creative industries, whereas shared apprenticeships really opens up opportunities. At the moment, this is being done on quite a small scale, albeit very successfully, by SkillsCymru, and it would be fantastic to see that scaled up.

Clara.

From a grass-roots perspective, one thing I am quite concerned about is succession—and it might be similar in other creative fields as well—where, in a grass-roots situation, you might join a venue at 20 and then you become the general manager and then you leave at 60, 70, when you retire, and so the venue is built around, really, one person and it becomes sort of attached to one person. But, obviously, that means longer term it's actually not that resilient. So, I think programmes that get either maybe apprenticeships or just people working in venues and using it as a pipeline is really important.

Music Venue Trust had a programme pre-pandemic called Fightback: Grassroots Promoter, which is trying to get young women into promoting at grass-roots level, because hopefully that would kickstart their interest and they'd want to continue that and it would help with that issue of longer term resilience and succession. But I think this really is a core concern of mine, and I think it needs to be addressed in order to make a very resilient sector overall.

Diolch, Clara. Sara.

I think excellent points made by colleagues, and I'd absolutely concur with all of them. I think one thing to add is about requesting Welsh Government to really think about a long-term strategy for skills. I feel like skills has been an issue for this sector for quite a long time—quite long enough now, actually. This is a sector that is growing, has been on a growth trajectory, and, despite the blip of the last 18 months, is also showing some real roots and shoots and opportunities for the future. So, I think that we have to really think about a longer-term strategy that is adequately funded to support that potential growth trajectory. Because either what we can do is set a strategy that supports what is now and what we could be doing in the next year or 18 months, or we could look at the potential for the innovation, the technology, the digitally enabled innovation, that's going to be coming down the line and is coming down the line very rapidly, and we could create a strategy that supports and enables that.

And my final point then is that, to do that, there has to also be a real joining up with other departments in Government. We need to be talking to the education department. We need to be thinking about what are the 10-year-olds learning and doing now that will enable them to be the workforce of the future. So, it's a very big joining up piece of work, but lots of people have been pushing and lobbying in this space for a long time. We need to see action now. Action is vital.

Back to Heledd.

Thank you very much, and thank you for those very clear messages for us as a committee. You'll be aware that the Welsh Government and the Deputy Minister have committed to a new culture strategy during the term of this Senedd. So, what would you like to see in that strategy, specifically in terms of the creative industries? You've talked about skills; clearly that has to be one part of the strategy. But what else would you like to see being emphasised in such a strategy?

Okay. Sara first.

I'm going to jump straight in there and fly the flag for innovation. That must be a really key part of what that strategy is going forward. I'm not hearing enough talk about innovation and research and development and growing new businesses, new opportunities, and getting them to a point of them being commercially sustainable, or at least adding value in all the different ways that we need to do so, or that the cultural sector does so well around health and well-being, around education, around identity, around language and culture. But innovation has to drive all of that. It doesn't matter where an organisation or an individual working in the creative sector is doing their work, whether it's on a subsidised project or company through to a very commercial part of the sector; we're looking at the full span of the creative and cultural industries here and the wider creative economy. So, I think innovation for me has to be up there at the heart of this, as well as—I've talked a lot; it's very much linked—digital and technology. We have to absolutely have—. The two have to be sewn in together.

Diolch, Sara. Okay, Clara.

I think, from my perspective, I would like the words 'grassroots music venue' to be included in policies. It sounds obvious, but sometimes, with these types of policies, people sort of dance around what they mean, and, actually, just using the words 'grassroots music venues'—if you want to protect grassroots music venues, use the words 'grassroots music venues'. So, I think that is a really important thing, just recognising that venues now are seen as cultural entities rather than just commercial entities. We are the same as theatres and cinemas and other arts spaces in the creative economy. So, recognising that the envelope for that has been widened and we're included in it.

Diolch, Clara. Dyfrig.

And to understand that important balance between work and leisure, which of course feeds indirectly into culture; if you have more leisure time, then the more you can engage with culture. And the culture also means that you can participate across all sectors.

But, at the moment, I think one of the things facing us as we seek to come out of COVID is that we're working longer hours for less money, and then that balance and that well-being side of things isn't given the attention it should. So, I'm pleased that the question is being asked because it's very important indeed in the way we think about things as we move forward.

Yes, very important. Thank you. Pauline.

I'd like them to think quite carefully about where the intersections are with other partners, particularly the arts council—because we tend to, even now, get this kind of false dichotomy between what's economy and what's culture, what's arts, what's culture; well, it's a continuum, and we are in a creative business and both need to be reflected—and to really think through what that means.

We need to think about the overall ecosystem. As Sara said earlier, freelancers are absolutely vital to this sector, and we need to think about the sort of stickiness as to how they're supported in the lulls as well as when we're thriving, to look at businesses, the sustainability of businesses within that, and how we can support that.

And I think also, more broadly, as I said before, the green agenda, the inclusive agenda, and also well-being, which is something that is being talked about an awful lot, and that's long overdue: what are the kind of practices within the cultural sector that we need to look at again and think about redesigning so that people can thrive individually, as well as looking at our businesses?

Thank you for that. Heledd, we will have to move on fairly swiftly. Is there anything else that you wanted to ask?

The only other question that I wanted to ask was on the opportunities the length and breadth of Wales. I'm aware of the scheme that Sara has been part of in terms of Cardiff specifically. But, with regard to the opportunities across Wales, are there any further steps that need to be taken to ensure that there are equal opportunities for everyone, wherever they live, in terms of this industry?

We'll go to Sara for that. Sorry, we'll go to Sara, and then we'll go to Pauline.

I think the simple answer, Heledd, is, absolutely, 'yes'. I think you've hit on a really important point. We do need to consider the nation as a whole and in terms of the needs of the sector as a whole. It's an interesting way that the sector connects together in terms of the agglomeration in the south-east, but also then the connections to the rest of Wales. It's very important for us to—. One point I forgot to make in the previous answer was around data, and knowing and mapping and seeing what's happening, and being very cognisant and mindful of that, so we can fully take those opportunities where there are hotspots, where there are opportunities, where there are gaps.

I think, referring to some of Pauline's points as well, this is about also working with partners to deliver in those spaces. Some of the work schemes that are coming online—for example, Clwstwr is one that you referred to, Heledd; media.cymru is similar—are place-based initiatives. So, we have to mark out places. What we've tried to do in those schemes is work with colleagues at Welsh Government and others to enable opportunities. We've funded a number of projects across Wales through Clwstwr, and we'll continue to do that in media.cymru, where there's a sensible narrative, where there's an opportunity, where there's a hotspot, where there's the potential for growth and development.

But I think you raise an important point, Heledd; I think it's important that we all undertake work to be more mindful of where those hotspots and those opportunities are, and then put in additional—. There needs to be—. As many interventions as we have already had, we need two, three, more Clwstwr-type initiatives; we just need more. That means regions and locations need to be well-networked, well-connected, to be able to bid in to these sorts of schemes, to create opportunities that are fitting and appropriate for that location and what's happening within it.

Pauline, if I could ask for a relatively short answer, please, because we do need to move on to Alun Davies, but you wanted to say something on this.

I was just going to say that cinemas, universities, they're also great catalysts for the sector, and they are often partners, delivering across Wales. So, thinking about how those cultural spaces are place-making spaces that can connect, offer training opportunities, et cetera, new entrants. We are seeing production right the way across the sector, and right the way across Wales, so I think it is a success story from that point of view. But from—[Interruption.] Sorry, my dog's barking in the background.

I'd just also say that we should continue to look at what we've gained during COVID from digital delivery. We've certainly seen, from the training perspective, that we've doubled the reach right the way across Wales. And that's not only about geographic reach, it's also people who are living with a disability, for example, who have been able to access training much more readily in many cases. So, I think continuing some hybrid offers in that space is quite important.

Thank you, Pauline. We'll move on to Alun Davies.

Thank you. I want to return to the spectre at the feast, in terms of COVID. Could I start by—? I think the only member of the panel for whom this is probably relevant is Clara, in terms of COVID passes. Do any of your venues, or the venues you represent, have any experience of using the COVID pass? How has its introduction affected the sector?

Sure. So, I was on the phone to a venue yesterday, and they said to me that the introduction of the COVID pass had meant that they had to spend £120 more on security every week, just to ensure that the entry requirements are being adhered to. So, that's a direct financial increase. We're trying to track the actual impact in terms of ticket sales and on-the-door impact. What we're seeing at the moment is there has been a slight decline in on-the-door impact, but I think at the moment, really, it's the financial burdens, or the increase in the financial costs around implementing the pass, that I think venues are struggling with in comparison to other types of hospitality industry spaces. So, yes, there has been an impact for sure.

I would have anticipated that many of your venues would seek to ensure ID is used before entry in any case, wouldn't they?

They were already doing that as well, but it's basically to ensure that the measures are being effectively implemented. What we're seeing on the ground anecdotally is that there is—. I guess, enforcement is an issue. There is some backlash in terms of the punters being slightly aggressive in the enforcement or not quite understanding the messaging, so that's an additional burden as well, which I think a lot of our venues are slightly concerned about, because obviously, they're on the front line of having to deal with those interactions.

I think Pauline may want to come in on this as well.

I think it's interesting that you didn't immediately spot that cinemas are also included in the COVID passes as a mandatory measure. We're equally seeing a negative impact. I think a lot of it is about the way it has been brought in, just to disaggregate it—the fact that it's there at all. Because we have been short of marketing assets for cinemas to get out there and be able to communicate with their audiences about what's actually required of them. Even now, we don't have, on the Welsh Government's website, the clarity that we, yesterday, managed to get in terms of details from officials that it only applies to cinemas that are designed for that primary purpose and not, for example, community venues, village halls, miners' halls, et cetera, which are also used for screening. There's a lot of confusion out there about that. A lot of those other sites think that it does apply to that and they are even now advertising that that's what you need to do—have a COVID pass—when it's not actually the case in terms of official advice.

We are seeing a number of economic repercussions. So, you've got staff needed for longer and more staff required in order to do the checks in advance. Cinema is renowned for walk-ups, rather than pre-booking that you might see in theatre spaces, for example. And also, on average in the UK, people don't go to the cinema every week in the same way that you'd go shopping every week. If you'd go shopping every week and you had to have a COVID pass, you would get it, but if you only go to the cinema two or three times a year, which is the average UK level, you're not necessarily going to go out there and think, 'Oh, I must get my pass'. So, it's not habitual in the same way. So, I think from a behavioural point of view, that's a barrier for bringing it in. And we are seeing venues—it's still early days, obviously—reporting dips of between 43 and 51 per cent from previous admissions, pre COVID passes, already. And we have got comparisons from the UK Cinema Association, where they can do direct comparisons elsewhere in the UK, because they're chains. We're continuing to collect that data and we'll share it with officials.

I would be interested in that data, because the evidence you've given does chime with evidence we've received earlier this morning, but it is all anecdotal. And I do find it a bit odd—I'll be using my COVID pass this evening to go and watch Cardiff City struggle again, and I find it somewhat curious that the arts community is struggling with this, whereas other sectors, such as the sports sector, don't seem to have had the same issue at all.

I think, with respect, that's an issue of numbers and also of marketing. So, if you go to a big game and there are thousands of people walking up, you're going to have a level of awareness that's quite different than if you're going to a cinema that might only have 20 or 30 people in their audience, sometimes fewer. And we also have an age demographic where people are not necessarily online—they're not necessarily tracking what the latest official guidance is. The advice and the guidance—you've got to spend a lot of time digging around trying to find it and members of the public are not going to be doing that.

Well, I don't find that very convincing evidence, I have to say. But we'll leave it at that, because other members of the public seem perfectly able to understand it. I used COVID passes in Scotland on my summer holidays without any difficulty, so I'm not convinced by the argument that the demographic that goes to cinemas is a demographic that's not actively online. I don't find that very convincing.

We're happy to share the evidence.

Yes, I'm sure you are, and I'd be happy for the committee to receive that.

In terms of moving on with COVID, all members of the panel were very clear earlier that additional funding from Welsh Government would be useful, and clearly that's fair enough. But I'm interested to understand what you are doing as organisations to support and to sustain either your members or people you represent through this period. What advice are you providing, what support are you providing to these different organisations?

Do you want to start, Dyfrig?

From our members' perspective, what we do is communicate safe ways of working. We're also communicating where financial support is available and how to access it. And, from a business perspective, how local authorities can assist. So, we share information, we hold as much training as possible and ensure that people are aware of how they can work safely.

Not that I want to raise another red herring, but another problem that could face us will be the price of fuel in moving forward, in considering working safely. Our members are travelling alone at the moment. That isn't good for the environment, of course, and that's another problem. But, in the very short term, with fuel prices as they are, it's going to cause all sorts of problems to the sector in moving forward. So, that's another point. But, information sharing is the most important thing we've been doing, and we've been doing that through online training courses, as I've already mentioned—over 33 of those have been held—and then sharing good practice too.

Did anybody else want to add to that? Sara's put her hand up.

Thank you, Chair. I think, in a similar way to Dyfrig, through a number of different schemes and projects we run, like Creative Cardiff and Clwstwr, we've been communicating information around resource and support opportunities; I think that's important to do ongoing.

Also we have funding to distribute, and we've not gone a million miles from what our key strategic aims and ambitions are in that activity, but we've had to think and evolve slightly those competitions, opportunities, commissions for when funding can be distributed to support the sector in the most supportive way. And I've mentioned several times in the session this morning about this encouragement for innovation. It might seem like an unusual thing when everyone's going through a pandemic, but when certain business drops away, then that potentially gives rise to time capability, skill development, and the opportunity for innovating to move through that or to take up opportunities that were there that weren't there previously because business as usual was taking up all the time. So, we've been supporting that narrative as well as funding opportunities to enable innovation in that space with technology, yes, but innovating in a whole range of different ways.

I think we've also been through that work trying to encourage a greater understanding with audiences. Because we've talked a lot about this sector today, but you can't have this conversation without considering audiences, because, essentially, they are the other half of the picture here. And audiences have changed and evolved as opportunities and challenges have changed and evolved in the last 18 months. So, I think us talking to the sector about that is really, really important, because it's great to say, 'Oh, put everything online, go digital.' It's really not that straightforward; I think we're all very clear about that. There have been some real winners and there have been lots of mediocre to not-going-so-well in that whole process, and that presents risks to businesses. And audiences have changed, and there are opportunities. We need to understand those, so we can fully grasp what that presents to individuals, to businesses and to Wales. And, likewise, we've talked a lot about skills—we've been working a lot to champion support, develop thinking around skills development, which is essential right now, in the way we've discussed this morning.

Diolch, Sara. We are into our final six minutes, so we would need to move on relatively soon. But, Clara and Pauline, you wanted to add something. If I could ask for as brief an answer as possible, please.

I think for the Music Venue Trust, it actually became almost the making of us. We went from a team of two full-time employees to over a team of 15, which included our regional and national co-ordinators—and some of you may know Sam, who's our Welsh co-ordinator. We did a thing called Save Our Venues, which was a public-facing campaign. That raised over £5 million that was distributed to venues in emergency crisis grants. Things like Revive Live, which was our campaign over the summer, which was about getting audiences back into small venues—that was a partnership with the National Lottery to underwrite the shows costs, which meant that venues could open up, it meant that artists got paid and they could go back on the road and get audiences back into venues. And I think, like my fellow panellists said, information sharing really became one of the most important things we did. As a central organisation like MVT we were able to distribute to our members all the information as it changed, and attend all the different Government meetings and committee meetings and make sure that the voice of grass-roots music venues was represented in those meetings. I think, actually, that had a very impactful impact on just making sure that we were recognised in this crisis.

Pauline, and then we'll be moving on to the final section in a moment. Pauline.

We've documented quite a lot of what we've done previously, so I can just share that in writing with the committee. Essentially, we pivoted all of our funding in the first year, so there was more emphasis on development when production couldn't happen. We spent a lot of time working with colleagues across the UK, and particularly the BFI, in quite an extensive joined-up stakeholder set of working groups that then advised on policy development, within devolved Government context and UK Government context. In particular, that led to the £500 million film and tv restart scheme, which effectively backs up the fact that insurance isn't available for COVID-related loss. And until that was in place, you couldn't get production going again. So, that was the most important thing, really, that we did to get production going. And we worked very closely with Creative Wales in the design of the cultural recovery fund as it relates to cinemas and freelances in particular.

If you could write to us with any further information you have on that, that would be fantastic, please. We have three minutes left of our scheduled time, but there is one final section that we wanted to raise. Alun Davies is going to raise Brexit.

Yes, just very quickly. Our first panel this morning had nothing good to say about Brexit, and I was just wondering if you were going to confirm that, or whether you had any light to shine on this darkness.

Well, perhaps I'd agree with what you've already heard. It's creating all sorts of problems, quite simply, in terms of the sector that TAC represents, such as getting talent to travel and to exchange ideas. When you go out to work or film, there are all sorts of barriers in place now and all sorts of uncertainties that lead to additional costs too. And that too means that when you do come to sell productions and to trade, because there all sorts of trade deals being done, very little consideration is given to how that will impact the exchange of content that we produce. So, those are the problems. It hasn't been a positive thing. We can only hope that things will come to some sort of order and that we can move forward together.

Thank you, Dyfrig. Does anybody online want to add anything on this? We have a minute and a half left, but does anybody else have anything to add? We can run over a few minutes if you do want to add anything there. Sara.

I was just going to say, Sara, before you start—

I'm sure I can do this in under a minute. We did a piece of research in 2019 that looked at the potential impacts of Brexit, and they showed very high levels of concern for business. I think all of those concerns were well justified, and unfortunately we've seen that and some. So, we're seeing significant ongoing impacts around a decline in business, higher costs, issues around access to talent and mobility being a big issue across the creative spectrum, supply chain issues, reputational damage and access to funding.

Sara, would it be possible for you to furnish the committee with that research from 2019, but also any updates you have on that—any commentaries that you could lay alongside those predictions?

Of course. Will do.

We'd be grateful. Thank you.

Thank you very much.

Clara or Pauline, did you want to add anything on that point?

The only thing I would add is that I think what we're going to see with the additional costs and the barriers is that the stage at which artists tour Europe and vice versa will become when they're slightly more established, rather than at a grass-roots level, which we saw pre Brexit. So, often, you'd get DIY bands and grass-roots bands touring Europe quite easily. I think what you'll probably end up seeing is that the decision to tour Europe and from European artists coming here will start at a later stage in the artist's development, because it will cost more and therefore you need to be more established to do it.

And last word to you, Pauline.

I think in some ways it's still actually too early to tell from a production point of view because of just how long it takes, lead-in time, and so I just put a little bit of a caveat on that, that we're still tracking that. I think that there's a bigger issue coming down the line around whether or not content from the UK will continue to be known as European works, and that is a very live debate within Europe right now. If we aren't continued on that basis, that will have very significant implications, because it will affect content being able to be included in all the quotas that apply to the streamers, et cetera. So, that's something, I think, that the committee should keep an eye on.

Thank you.

Thank you very much. I'm sorry we do have to draw the session to a close, but thank you very much to all of you, witnesses, for your evidence this morning. Thank you for being so patient with the fact that time was against us this morning, we really do appreciate it. A transcript of the discussion will be sent to you to check for accuracy with regard to what you said, and several of you have mentioned that you will be writing to us with additional information. We will be very grateful for that, too. But thank you very much for joining us this morning, thank you.

Members, we'll move straight on to item 4, which is papers to note. There are a number of papers here for us to note: item 4.1, a letter from the Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee to us with regard to the Welsh Language Tribunal annual report. Item 4.2, a letter from the Welsh Language Commissioner to us with regard to support for the Welsh language and annual scrutiny. Item 4.3, additional information from the Welsh Rugby Union following the one-day inquiry on sport. Item 4.4, additional information from Sport Wales following the one-day inquiry on sport, the same inquiry there. Item 4.5, a letter from the First Minister to the Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee regarding the inter-institutional relations agreement with regard to the British-Irish Council summit in Wales. Item 4.6, a joint letter to us with regard to issues facing arts venues. Item 4.7, a letter—

Can I say a word on that? Many of the issues raised in that correspondence have been raised with us by witnesses this morning, and there does seem to be a quite significant crossover of issues, particularly in terms of recovery from COVID and dealing with continuing restrictions. I don't think it would be fair simply to note that letter and not consider whether we as a committee wish to take any action, having received that correspondence.

Thank you, Alun. Heledd wants to come in on this as well. Heledd.

Yes, I would support Alun with that proposal. Certainly, I think the message that we received very clearly in terms of the cultural recovery fund and the need for a third tranche of that, and I think the Deputy Minister's response—. I think that we would like to see action being taken on the basis of this letter to ask for greater clarity with regard to the funding and more clarity with regard to the bid that the Arts Council of Wales made for additional funding, what will that go towards and whether that will count as the third tranche of the cultural recovery fund, if truth be told.

Is everyone content, therefore, for us to write to the Government with regard to not just this letter, but also the evidence that we've heard this morning?

Yes, but I think we need to go further than simply asking for money, because I think that's the easiest thing in the world to do. It would be more surprising if witnesses didn't come here and say, 'We could do with some more money.' So, I think we've got to be—I don't necessarily disagree, by the way, with a third cultural recovery fund, but I think that would be an inadequate response in itself. I think we need to look at how these venues are being supported. We need to look at how the restrictions are impacting upon them and how the context in which they are working can be supported and sustained. I think it's a much broader and wider issue than simply saying, 'Let's throw more money at the issue.'

Is everyone content, therefore, for us to write a letter, asking in broader terms about support, including funding? Everyone content? Yes, I see that you are; we will do that.

The final two papers to note—thank you for that—are item 4.7, a letter from us to the Secretary of State for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport regarding the future of public service broadcasting and media in Wales.

And finally, item 4.8, additional information from the Museums Association following the one-day inquiry on heritage, museums and archives. Other than what we've already said with regard to one of the letters, is everyone content to note those papers and letters? Alun wanted to come in, and then Heledd.

I've got 4.9 here, a letter from the Scottish and Welsh Governments to the Secretary of State on Ofcom—[Interruption.]—

Oh, right. Sorry. Okay. Could I have the full title of that, please? We do note and additional letter, item 4.9, a letter from the Scottish and Welsh Governments to the Secretary of State with regard to the Ofcom chair appointment, so we will note that too. And Alun wants to come in on that, and then I'll turn to Heledd.

Can I say, the last few weeks, the last month or so, in fact, have been amongst the most disappointing, and I think, frankly, disgraceful actions I've seen from any Government at any time? Trying to fix the appointment of an independent regulator for a friend of the Prime Minister is appalling. It goes far, far beyond anything I've experienced in politics before, and I think we need to think hard—. I agree with what the Governments are saying, but I think if we are to have any sense of having an open, democratic, pluralistic, free media, then you can't have a Government that bullies the regulator, and appoints its friends and political donors in the way that's happening at the moment. I think it's a very, very difficult situation for us, and I think as a Senedd, rather than perhaps just as a committee, we probably need to do something to support and to sustain the arguments that have been made by the Governments in this case.

Before I come to you, Heledd, we could consider as a committee whether we want to write with regard to this issue as well. Would everybody in principle—? Clearly, a draft could be circulated, but is everyone in principle content for us to consider doing something like that? Tom? I'll come to you, Heledd, in a moment; I know you wanted to come in on something different. Tom.

I'd be quite keen to see the response from the Secretary of State before we kind of waded in; I think it probably would be for the best. And secondly, if we were to go down that road, as I say, I would like to see the draft before it was sent.

Before I turn to you, Hefin; Heledd, was it on this issue that you wanted to speak, or one of the other letters?

It was one of the others.

Okay.

But I agree with Alun, and your proposal, Chair, that we should be taking action now, not waiting for a response. I disagree with Tom on that.

Okay. Hefin.

Were you asking me the question?

Yes. I thought you had your hand up to come in, but I may have imagined that, sorry.

I'd just say, if we're looking for a majority position on the committee, I'd agree with Heledd's point and Alun's point. I take Tom's point, and I probably wouldn't have placed it in the committee quite as politically as Alun did, but it is a key issue and I think we can address it more quickly, sooner rather than later.

Okay. Thank you all for that. Obviously, we will get Carolyn's view as well after this session; the majority at the moment seem to be in favour of writing sooner rather than later. Taking on board your points, Tom, that your perspective may not be—that you'd like to maybe have more nuance in this, we will work carefully on the drafting to make sure that everyone is as happy as possible with the draft. Is that all right, Tom?

Yes. If the committee wants to write the letter, that's fine, but I wouldn't feel comfortable unless you get the language correct and I'd quite like to see that then, before that goes out.

Okay, no problem. Is everyone happy with that?

Okay. Thank you, Tom. Heledd wanted to come in on another paper.

Yes, just on paper 4.3 by the Welsh Rugby Union—just to note in their response that they weren't very happy with the questioning in terms of Amazon Prime. I do think that it would be worth us emphasising that we are going further than some of the questions that do arise, and it is worth, when we invite people to come in to give evidence, to remind them that if there was something relevant in the news as well that it is possible that we will be raising those issues, because we do have the opportunity in the culture committee to raise those matters.

Okay, thank you. That's noted. Thank you, Heledd.

I don't see anybody else raising their hands with regard to the papers.

Is everyone content for us to move to private session? Okay, so I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content to agree that motion? I see that they are, and in that case we'll move into private session.