Children, Young People, and Education Committee

Bore da, everyone. Welcome to today's meeting of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. In the absence of the Chair, Buffy Williams, the first item on today's agenda is the election of a temporary Chair for the duration of today's meeting. Therefore, under Standing Order 17.22, I call for nominations for a temporary Chair.

I'd like to nominate Vaughan Gething, please.

Thank you. Are there any other nominations? I see that there are none. I therefore propose that Vaughan Gething is appointed temporary Chair of the committee for the duration of today's meeting. Are there any objections? I see that there are none and invite Vaughan Gething to take the Chair.

Thank you very much. Good morning. Bore da, pawb.

We are going to take ourselves through today's meeting of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. Public items are being broadcast as usual and the meeting is available bilingually, with simultaneous translation from Welsh to English. Are there any declarations of interest from Members before we begin?

Well, it's my usual declaration. I was involved in the co-operation agreement between Plaid Cymru and the Government. I was involved in the preparation of early drafts of the White Paper, but the agreement came to an end before the draft Bill was published, but I was involved in drawing up the White Paper, which preceded this Bill.

Diolch yn fawr, Cefin. Thank you for your usual declaration, which you've given consistently. Buffy Williams has sent her apologies; Joyce Watson is attending in her place. Natasha Asghar also sends her apologies and Sam Kurtz is attending in her place and is leading for the Welsh Conservatives on this piece of legislation. So, welcome to you both. I'd also like to welcome again the Cabinet Secretary, Mark Drakeford, and his officials to the meeting. There's Sioned Tobias, Bethan Webb and Siwan Daniel.

We'll go straight into proceedings. We're here to finish Stage 2 proceedings. We have six groups left after, last week, we dealt with sections 1 to 27 of the Bill. Some of the amendments that we'll be voting on were moved and debated last week, but we'll come to that in proceedings.

We're going to start where we left off, that is at the start of group 22. So, the twenty-second group of amendments relates to local Welsh in education strategic plans. The lead amendment in this group is amendment 74.

I move the amendment in the name of the Cabinet Secretary and call on the Cabinet Secretary to speak to the lead amendment and other amendments in this group. Bore da.

Thank you very much. Good morning, Chair. Part 4 of the Bill relates to planning Welsh language education and learning Welsh. Sections 28 to 33 of the Bill in particular relate to the arrangements for planning Welsh language education at local authority level in maintained schools, through the local Welsh in education strategic plans. Therefore, alongside planning in relation to Welsh language provision in schools that are maintained, the purpose and effect of amendment 74 in the name of the Government is to ensure that the scope of the WESPs can include children of compulsory school age who are not pupils in maintained schools. The amendment will specifically place a duty on local authorities, to the extent required by regulations, to note how they will fulfil their education duties to promote and facilitate teaching Welsh and education and training through the medium of Welsh in relation to children of compulsory school age who are not pupils in maintained schools. This group of children would include, for example, children who are receiving education other than at school through provision arranged by the local authority. This could include children who are away from school because of illness.

In last week’s meeting, the committee voted in favour of the Government’s amendments in group 20 to include tertiary education within the national framework. The Government is also of the view that there is scope to extend further the role of the Commission for Tertiary Education and Research, Medr, to be a statutory consultee to the WESPs. Medr had proposed this in evidence to committee and amendment 75 delivers upon this.

By the same token, the purpose of amendment 148, in the name of Cefin Campbell, is to add Mudiad Meithrin to the list of organisations that local authorities must consult with in drawing up their Welsh in education strategic plans, and I'm content to support this amendment.

Of the amendments that remain in this group, amendment 152, in the name of Cefin Campbell, gives the power to Welsh Minsters to amend WESPs prepared by a local authority, or to set out a new plan where the Welsh Ministers are of the view that it's unlikely that it will reach the target set on it by the national framework.

I understand, of course, the desire to have a mechanism in place to enforce change if there are signs that targets in the national framework are unlikely to be met. However, I do not agree that a power to enable Welsh Ministers to impose an amended or new WESP on a local authority would achieve that. Welsh Ministers have had similar powers to those proposed in amendment 152 under the School Standards and Organisation (Wales) Act 2013 that have never been exercised. That is because they are unworkable.

WESP planning and delivery is heavily dependent on building strong partnerships between schools, community, stakeholders and cabinet members to achieve a common goal. If that local ownership is ignored and removed from the equation and replaced by an imposed plan, my view is that it is unlikely to succeed. This is why section 32(3) of the Bill has been drafted, so that Welsh Ministers have the power to direct local authorities to consider amending their plan. This is more likely to drive positive behaviours in relation to WESP implementation. This is related to making better law that leads to positive change. It is on these grounds that I would like to ask Members to reject amendment 152.

Amendments 149, 150 and 151, in the name of Cefin Campbell, are consequential to amendment 152, and on the premise that I reject amendment 152, I also ask Members to reject amendments 149, 150 and 151. Thank you.

Diolch. Are there any other Members who wish to speak in the debate? Cefin Campbell.

Diolch yn fawr iawn a diolch yn fawr i Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet am ei ymateb i'r gwelliannau yn fy enw i. Ond cyn troi at y rheini, byddwn i'n falch iawn o dderbyn y gwelliant rŷch chi wedi'i gymeradwyo yn fy enw i hefyd i gynnwys y Mudiad Meithrin yn un o'r partneriaid y byddwn ni'n ymgynghori â nhw o ran y cynlluniau strategol lleol y Gymraeg mewn addysg. Rŷn ni'n gwybod bod y sector blynyddoedd cynnar yn llwyr allweddol i dwf addysg Gymraeg, ac felly dwi'n siŵr y bydd pawb yn cefnogi hynny y bore yma, ac yn yr un modd Medr hefyd, sy’n chwarae rhan allweddol, yn arbennig yn y sector trydyddol.

Y rheswm y gwnes i gyflwyno gwelliant 152 a'r gwelliannau sydd yn gysylltiedig ag e—. Dwi wedi bod yn gwrando'n ofalus y bore yma ar sylwadau’r Ysgrifennydd Cabinet, ac fe wnaethoch chi gyfeirio at bwysigrwydd adeiladu partneriaethau cryf i gyflawni’r nod, a dwi’n cytuno'n llwyr gyda hynny, a bod y partneriaethau yna’n allweddol o ran cyrraedd y nod o gael CSCA mor gryf ac uchelgeisiol â phosibl, ond mae yna bosibilrwydd o hyd y byddai creu partneriaethau yn methu â chyflawni’r nod rŷn ni am ei weld ymhob awdurdod lleol. Felly, petawn ni’n cyrraedd sefyllfa lle mae un awdurdod lleol yn dweud, 'Na, mae’n flin gennym ni, dŷn ni ddim yn mynd i wneud yr hyn rŷch chi yn disgwyl inni ei wneud', wel, does yna ddim mecanwaith arall ar gael. Gallwn ni gyfarwyddo, fel y dywedoch chi, awdurdodau i ddiwygio’r cynllun, ond byddai e’n berffaith bosibl iddyn nhw ddweud, 'Na, dim diolch yn fawr iawn.' Felly, yr hyn dwi’n gofyn amdano yw rhoi’r pŵer i Weinidogion osod CSCA yn unol â’r fframwaith cenedlaethol, yn unol â nod Llywodraeth Cymru, fod pob rhan o Gymru yn cyfrannu at y nod o greu o leiaf miliwn o siaradwyr Cymraeg.

Felly, er fy mod yn deall yr ysbryd rŷch chi’n cyflwyno’ch ymatebion, dwi’n ofni o hyd y byddai yna le i rai awdurdodau ddweud, 'Na, dim diolch yn fawr iawn', felly byddwn i’n gobeithio wedyn y byddai Gweinidogion yn gallu camu i mewn a gosod CSCA yn eu lle petai nhw yn anfodlon cydweithio â nodau’r Llywodraeth. Felly, dyna pam dwi wedi cyflwyno’r gwelliant a’r gwelliannau cysylltiedig. Diolch.

Diolch, Cefin. Are there any other Members who wish to contribute? No, there are not. I invite the Cabinet Secretary to reply to the debate if he so wishes.

Thank you very much, Chair, and I thank Cefin Campbell for informing us that he will be supporting the Government's amendments.

Just to go back to amendment 152, we want to see the same thing here, don't we? The argument is how we deliver that. The targets under the Bill will be compulsory for those local authorities. They can't submit a plan that doesn't align with the targets that the Government and local authorities will be able to agree with. If a partnership fails, as Cefin Campbell says, what is the best way to try to rebuild that relationship? Well, I'm still not of the view that the best way of doing that is by saying, 'Well, we're just going to impose a plan upon you, and you will now have to implement that plan.' There are several ways in which local authorities can choose not to align with something they don't agree with. What we do now with the WESPs is that we receive those plans, we discuss with them; we don't just accept what the local authorities say. There is a process there where we discuss with them, we negotiate with them, and at the end of the process, we can agree on something.

What happens in the future if a Government, for example, has the powers now that they will have, isn't willing to agree with the plan submitted by Gwynedd, for example? Now, with the powers that Cefin Campbell wants to include in the Bill, the Government will be able to tell Gwynedd Council, 'No, no, we know better here in Cardiff than you who are providing those services locally.' So, I continue to be of the view that the best way forward is the way set out in the Bill, where the Ministers can have conversations and negotiations with local authorities. That is a better way forward than just having those powers in our hands to compel people who don't want to do what we want them to do to do so.

Diolch, Ysgrifennydd Cabinet. So, the question is that amendment 74 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 74 is agreed.

I move amendment 46 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. So, the question is that amendment 46 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 46 is agreed.

Samuel Kurtz, amendment 96.

Move.

Symud. The question is that amendment 96 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections. We'll move to a vote. All those in favour of amendment 96, please show. That's three. All those against, that's three. It's three for, three against, so I'll therefore use my casting vote in the negative. Amendment 96 is, therefore, not agreed.

I move amendment 47 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. So, the question is that amendment 47 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is one objection. We'll move to a vote. All those in favour of amendment 47, please show. That's one, two, three—four. All those against amendment 47, please show. That's two. Four in favour, two against. Amendment 47 is therefore agreed.

Samuel Kurtz, amendment 97.

Move.

Symud. So, the question is that amendment 97 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there are objections. We'll move to a vote. All those in favour of amendment 97, please show. That's one, two, three. And all those against. That's one, two, three. So, that's three for and three against. I therefore use my casting vote in the negative. Amendment 97 is not agreed.

I move amendment 48 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 48 be agreed to. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 48 is agreed.

I move amendment 49 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 49 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 49 is agreed.

I move amendment 50 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 50 be agreed. Does any Member object? No. Amendment 50 is agreed.

I move amendment 51 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 51 be agreed. Does any Member object? No. Amendment 51 is therefore agreed.

I move amendment 52 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 52 be agreed. Does any Member object? No, there are no objections. Amendment 52 is therefore agreed.

I move amendment 75 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 75 be agreed. Does any Member object? No, there are no objections. Amendment 75 is therefore agreed.

Cefin Campbell, amendment 148.

Move.

Symud. Amendment 148 is moved. The question is that amendment 148 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 148 is agreed.

I move amendment 53 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 53 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 53 is agreed.

I move amendment 54 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 54 be agreed to. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 54 is agreed.

Cefin Campbell, amendment 149.

Move.

Symud. The question is that amendment 149 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections. We therefore move to a vote. All those in favour of amendment 149, please show. That's one. All those against, that's one, two, three, four, five. One in favour, five against. Amendment 149 is therefore not agreed.

Cefin Campbell, amendment 150.

Move.

Amendment 150 is moved. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections. We'll therefore move to a vote. All those in favour of amendment 150, please show. That's one. And all those against. That's one, two, three, four, five. One in favour, five against. Amendment 150 is not agreed.

Cefin Campbell, amendment 151.

Move.

It's moved. The question is that amendment 151 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. We therefore move to a vote. All those in favour of amendment 151, that's one. All those against, one, two, three, four, five. That's one in favour, five against. Amendment 151 is not agreed.

Cefin Campbell, 152.

Move.

Amendment 152 is moved. The question is that amendment 152 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. We'll move to a vote. All those in favour of amendment 152, that's one. All those against, it's one, two, three, four, five. That's one in favour, five against. Amendment 152 is not agreed.

I move amendment 55 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 55 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No, there are no objections. Amendment 55 is agreed.

I move amendment 56 in the name in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 56 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No, there are no objections. Amendment 56 is agreed.

I move amendment 57 in the name in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 57 be agreed to. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 57 is therefore agreed.

We have now landed on group 23. The twenty-third group of amendments relates to the appointment of the chief executive of the national institute. The lead amendment in this group is amendment 90.

I move the amendment in the name of the Cabinet Secretary and call on the Cabinet Secretary to speak to the lead amendment and other amendments in this group. Professor Drakeford.

Thank you very much, Chair. The amendments in this group refer to the appointment of the first chief executive of the athrofa dysgu Cymraeg. Amendment 90 is the lead amendment and it refers to the appointment of the first chief executive. The amendment is important because it provides greater clarity about this particular appointment.

The athrofa, a new statutory body, is due to be established in August 2027 and a chief executive is required to be in place for the body to be established. In planning for the establishment of this new body, we need to take into account employment rights where the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations 2006 apply and, of course, we need to consider the need to ensure that the athrofa, as a new statutory body, is validly created. Amendment 90 makes it clearer on the face of the Bill that there may be different routes to the appointment of the chief executive and setting terms and conditions, depending on whether TUPE regulations do apply. The new drafting enables the Bill to deal with the different appointment situations that might arise. The amendment separates into different paragraphs the provisions about the making of the chief executive’s appointment and the determination of that person's terms and conditions.

Amendment 91 ensures that the Welsh and English texts do align. I ask Members to support the amendments in this group.

Diolch. Are there any Members who wish to speak?

Just very briefly, to say that I'm content to support the amendments.

Fantastic.

There are no other Members who wish to speak. Cabinet Secretary, do you wish to reply to the debate, such as it is?

No, thank you, Chair.

Fantastic.

Okay. So, the question is that amendment 90 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are none. Amendment 90 is therefore agreed.

I move amendment 91 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 91 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections.

Cefin Campbell, amendment 153.

Move.

Symud. Amendment 153 is moved. The question is that amendment 153 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. We'll therefore move to a vote. All those in favour of amendment 153, please show. That's one, two, three. All those against 153, please show. That's one, two, three. Three in favour, three against. I therefore use my casting vote in the negative and amendment 153 is therefore not agreed.

Cefin Campbell, amendment 154.

Move.

It is moved. Are there any objections to amendment 154? [Objection.] There are objections. We'll therefore move to a vote. All those in favour of amendment 154, please show. That's one, two, three. All those against. That's one, two, three. Three in favour, three against. I therefore use my casting vote in the negative and amendment 154 is not agreed.

Cefin Campbell, one five five.

Move.

Amendment 155 is moved. The question is that amendment 155 be agreed. Are there any objections? [Objection.] There are. We'll move to a vote. All those in favour of amendment 155, please show. That's three. All those against. That's three. Three in favour, three against. I therefore use my casting vote in the negative and 155 is not agreed.

I move amendment 76 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 76 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 76 is therefore agreed.

I move amendment 77 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 77 be agreed. Does any Member object? No, there are no objections. Amendment 77 is therefore agreed.

We now arrive at group 24. There is a single amendment in this group relating to the Welsh language learning curriculum by the national institute. The lead and sole amendment is amendment 78.

I move the amendment in the name of the Cabinet Secretary and ask the Cabinet Secretary to speak to the lead and single amendment.

Thank you very much, Chair. Part 2 of the Bill places a duty on Welsh Ministers to prepare a code that will establish a standard method of describing the specific characteristics of Welsh language users based on the common reference levels of the CEFR, which are set out in the table in Schedule 1. The aim of this is to facilitate a shared understanding by learners, teachers, parents and employers of an individual's journey towards learning Welsh and the expected linguistic outcomes at each stage of that journey.

Section 37(2)(g) places a duty on the athrofa to develop and maintain a national curriculum for Welsh language learning for learners over compulsory school age. The athrofa's curriculum will set learning objectives that will underpin the content of its learning programmes. There is currently no specific requirement for the curriculum developed and maintained by the athrofa to be based on the common reference levels in Schedule 1 or the code.

By tabling amendment 78, I am ensuring that the curriculum that the athrofa develops and maintains, and which drives the contents of its learning programmes, is based on the common reference levels set out in the table in Schedule 1 and the code that will be prepared under section 6. It places the athrofa in the same situation as schools in the Bill, and I ask Members to support the amendment.

Diolch. Are there any Members who wish to speak in this debate? No, there are none. I'm assuming the Cabinet Secretary doesn't want to reply to a debate with his own voice in it. No. Well, it's tempting, I know, being a politician, but thank you for not doing so.

The question is that amendment 78 be agreed to. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 78 is therefore agreed.

We now move to amendment 79. I move the amendment in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 79 be agreed to. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 79 is therefore agreed to.

I move amendment 80 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is amendment 80 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 80 is therefore agreed.

I move amendment 81 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 81 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 81 is therefore agreed.

I move amendment 82 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 82 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 82 is therefore agreed.

I move amendment 83 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 83 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 83 is therefore agreed.

We are now at group 25. The twenty-fifth group of amendments is on the application of Welsh language standards. The lead and sole amendment in this group is amendment 84.

I move the amendment in the name of the Cabinet Secretary and call on the Cabinet Secretary to speak to the lead and sole amendment.

Thank you very much, Chair. This is a technical amendment in terms of including the athrofa in the Welsh Language Standards (No. 6) Regulations 2017. The amendment changes where the body is listed in the regulations. Now, the athrofa will be included with similar educational bodies, rather than in stand-alone regulation. There is no change to the standards that will apply to the athrofa since the Bill was tabled. There's been no change to the policy since the Bill was scrutinised at Stage 1. I urge Members to support amendment 84.

Diolch yn fawr. Are there any Members who wish to speak in the debate? Is there anything further you wish to add in replying to yourself?

No, thank you.

Fantastic. So, the question is that amendment 84 be agreed to. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 84 is therefore agreed.

I move amendment 85 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 85 be agreed to. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 85 is therefore agreed.

The twenty-sixth group of amendments relates to funding the National Institute for Learning Welsh. The lead and sole amendment in this group is amendment 156. I call on Cefin Campbell to move and speak to the lead and sole amendment.

Thank you very much, Chair. This is a probing amendment, so I won't be requesting a vote on this amendment. But I do want to say a few words. It follows on from the comments made by the Cabinet Secretary with regard to the importance of the role of the athrofa in moving forward and supporting the objectives of this Bill. We must—we've discussed this already last week—ensure that there is sufficient workforce with the appropriate skills to support the growth of Welsh-medium education over the next few years. Of course, we need to ensure that adequate and sufficient resources are given to the athrofa to deliver upon the aims and to transform the way that the Welsh language is taught in our schools and colleges.

If teaching Welsh to the education workforce is one of the athrofa's main aims, then, of course, they must receive the funding then to deliver that. Cymdeithas yr Iaith, in its written evidence, stated this:

'Even for the present requirements, the Government’s current Welsh in education workforce plan is completely inadequate for the purpose of achieving a Welsh in education workforce, and totally underestimates the scale of the task of achieving an adequate workforce for the future. Much more significant investment needs to be made in workforce training, to include those training from scratch to become teachers as well as those already working.'

So, very simply, this amendment seeks sufficient funding for the athrofa, and, as this is a probing amendment, I would welcome very much an opportunity to discuss further with the Cabinet Secretary these related issues to see how we can achieve the aim of supporting the athrofa to the extent that it needs to be supported to achieve its aims. Thank you.

Thank you. Are there any other Members who wish to speak? There are none. I therefore invite the Cabinet Secretary to speak.

Thank you very much, Chair. Having heard Cefin Campbell's comments about a probing amendment, I'm not going to take too much time to explain why, in my view and in the view of the Government, placing a duty to fund the athrofa as set out in the amendment is unclear and too open to interpretation. What I do want to do is to state clearly that I give Members an assurance that I do agree on the need to fund the athrofa, and an important factor behind our decision to establish the athrofa was to provide firm financial foundations that will provide confidence to the new body and a platform to design policies, strategies and interventions in the long term. It will also provide assurance to the education sector and to learners that central support is available to them over the long term. The athrofa, as Cefin Campbell set out, will have a fundamental role in implementing this Bill. It's the Government's intention to use the powers within the Bill to ensure that the athrofa is funded to carry out and also to deliver our shared goals. And I thank Cefin Campbell for the opportunity to put this on the record this morning.

Diolch yn fawr. I ask Cefin Campbell if he wishes to reply to the debate.

No, thank you very much. As this will be my final opportunity to speak on Stage 2 of this Bill, I just want to thank all of the Members for their contributions. I also thank the Government too for accepting some of our amendments during this process. Even though we haven't agreed on every single point, I do genuinely look forward to further conversations before this Bill is debated as part of Stage 3 on the Senedd floor, and I'm sure that we can see a way forward to perhaps strengthen the Bill a little further before we come to that next stage. So, I thank the Cabinet Secretary and everyone for their contributions, and thank you to you, Chair.

Diolch yn fawr. Now, Cefin Campbell has indicated that amendment 156 is a probing amendment. Can I confirm that you wish to withdraw the amendment?

Yes. No vote.

Fantastic. So, does any Member object to the withdrawal of amendment 156? There is no objection. Amendment 156 is therefore withdrawn and not put to the vote.

I move amendment 58 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 58 be agreed to. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 58 is agreed.

I move amendment 86 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. If amendment 86 is agreed, amendment 98 falls. The question is that amendment 86 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. I therefore proceed to a vote. All those in favour of amendment 86 please show. Un, dau, tri, pedwar. That's four in favour. All those against. Un, dau. So, four are in favour, two against. Amendment 86 is therefore agreed, and amendment 98 has fallen.

We therefore move to amendment 60.

I move amendment 60 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 60 be agreed to. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 60 is therefore agreed.

I move amendment 61 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 61 be agreed to. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 61 is therefore agreed.

I move amendment 62 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 62 be agreed to. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 62 is therefore agreed.

I move amendment 63 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 63 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 63 is therefore agreed.

I move amendment 64 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 64 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No. Amendment 64 is therefore agreed.

I move amendment 87 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 87 be agreed to. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 87 is agreed.

We now move to the twenty-seventh and final group of amendments, which relate to general provisions. The lead amendment in this group is amendment 66.

I move the amendment in the name of the Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet and call on the Cabinet Secretary to speak to the lead amendment and other amendments in this group.

Thank you very much, Chair, and, as this is likely to be my final contribution during Stage 2, may I follow Cefin Campbell in thanking you for the way that you have helped us through this complex process during Stage 2, and all committee members too? I look forward to the discussions between now and Stage 3 to see where we can find agreement on certain issues and to strengthen the Bill, as we all want to see.

The final group of amendments is relatively technical in nature. The purpose of this group, generally speaking, is to provide clarity regarding the drafting and policy aims. The purpose and effect of amendment 66 is to provide clarity regarding the sending of documents in certain circumstances.

The purpose and effect of amendment 88 is to bring paragraph 2(4) of Schedule 2 within the scope of section 52(4) so that any regulations made in exercise of the power under paragraph 2(4) will be subject to the affirmative procedure. This amendment follows a recommendation by the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, and a commitment I gave to bring forward an amendment in my response to that committee on 13 January.

The purpose of amendment 89 is to include the commencement date for Part 5 and Schedule 2 on the face of the Bill. The effect of this is that preparatory work for the establishment of the athrofa will be carried out during the period after Royal Assent and before 1 August 2027 so that the athrofa can be operational on 1 August 2027.

And finally, the purpose of amendment 71 is to confirm on the face of the Bill when Schedule 1 will come into force. The effect of this amendment is that Schedule 1 will come into force two months after Royal Assent is obtained, at the same time as section 5. I urge Members to support the amendments in this group.

Diolch yn fawr, Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet. Are there any other Members who wish to speak? Samuel Kurtz.

Thank you, Chair, and, first of all, thank you for stepping into the breach as the Chair during this Stage. As this is my final opportunity as a Member to speak, I'd like to say a word of thanks to the committee team for the patience that they've shown to me, having taken on this role, and I thank you very much for the opportunity to work with you on this. I look forward to working with the Cabinet Secretary on what in addition we can do in terms of support for parents to ensure that there is fairness in the system to provide an opportunity for everyone to learn the Welsh language, not just children but an opportunity for adults to learn the language, and parents in particular.

I think that this is an historic time; the Welsh language isn't a political football, as I said last week. For me, as somebody who has grown up speaking Welsh, who has grown up bilingually, I don't think I realised how fortunate I was to have an opportunity to grow up speaking Welsh. If this opportunity is provided to other young people in Wales, I think that's a very good thing. So, I'm very thankful to the Cabinet Secretary for his work, to Cefin Campbell for his work and for the committee team's work during Stage 2, and I look forward to Stage 3.

Diolch, Sam.

Diolch yn fawr. So, are there any other Members? No. Then, for the last time in Stage 2 proceedings, I invite, if he so wishes, His Majesty's loyal Minister of the Crown, the Right Honourable Professor Drakeford, if he wishes to say anything further.

Just to thank Sam Kurtz and Cefin Campbell for the spirit in which they have tabled their amendments at Stage 2, and I look forward to further collaboration before we return to the Senedd floor at Stage 3.

Diolch yn fawr. The question is that amendment 66 be agreed to. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 66 is therefore agreed.

I move amendment 67 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 67 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No objections. Amendment 67 is therefore agreed.

I move amendment 69 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 69 be agreed to. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 69 is therefore agreed to.

Cefin Campbell, amendment 157.

Moved.

Amendment 157 is moved. The question is that amendment 157 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. We'll therefore move to a vote. All those in favour of amendment 157, please show. That's un, dau, tri. And all those against. Un, dau, tri. Three in favour, three against. I therefore use my casting vote in the negative. Amendment 157 is therefore not agreed.

I move amendment 68 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 68 be agreed to. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 68 is therefore agreed.

Cefin Campbell, amendment 158.

Yes, move.

Symud. The question is amendment 158 be agreed to. Are there any objections? [Objection.] There are. We'll therefore move to a vote. All those in favour of amendment 158, please show. Un, dau, tri. All those against. Un, dau, tri. That's three in favour, three against. I therefore use my casting vote in the negative. Amendment 158 is not agreed.

Cefin Campbell, amendment 160.

Move.

It is moved. Are there any objections to amendment 160? [Objection.] There are. So, I call for a vote. All those in favour of amendment 160, please show. Un. All those against amendment 160. Un, dau, tri, pedwar, pump. That's one in favour, five against. Amendment 160 is therefore not agreed.

Cefin Campbell, amendment 159.

Withdrawing this one.

Okay. That is not moved. Thank you, Cefin.

I move amendment 88 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is amendment 88 be agreed to. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 88 is therefore agreed.

I move amendment 70 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 70 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No, there are no objections. Amendment 70 is therefore agreed.

I move amendment 89, in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. Does any Member object? No. Amendment 89 is therefore agreed.

I move amendment 71 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is amendment 71 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No. Amendment 71 is therefore agreed.

Cefin Campbell, amendment 99.

For the final time, move.

Fantastic. So, the question is that amendment 99 be agreed to. Does any Member object? There are no objections. There we are. There's sometimes a cherry on top; sometimes it's a flake. Amendment 99 is therefore agreed.

So, diolch yn fawr, yr Athro Drakeford, to you and your officials for your attendance and for taking part in these Stage 2 proceedings. As is the usual course, you'll be sent the transcript of the meeting, to check for factual accuracy.

This now completes Stage 2 proceedings. I want to thank all Members for taking part in Stage 2, for the considered but also business-like manner in which proceedings have happened. And thank you again to Joyce and Sam for coming in at this stage in proceedings. So, Stage 3 begins tomorrow. The relevant dates will be published in due course. Standing Orders now make a provision for the Cabinet Secretary to prepare a revised explanatory memorandum, taking account of all the amendments that have been passed in the Stage 2 proceedings. The revised memorandum will be laid at least five working days before Stage 3 proceedings.

So, I now close proceedings for Stage 2, and the committee's business for the day. The committee will next meet again on Wednesday, 5 March. Thank you all very much. Enjoy the rest of your morning.