Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee

Okay. I'm Elin Haf Gruffydd Jones. I am the director of the University of Wales Centre for Advanced Welsh and Celtic Studies. I'm a professor at University of Wales Trinity Saint David. I am deputy chair of the commission, and I hope I'll have an opportunity to say a little more about myself later, possibly, when it's pertinent to the discussion this morning.

A very warm welcome to you. Thank you very much. And to Simon.

I'm Dr Simon Brooks. I am chair of the Welsh-speaking Communities Commission, and I'm an academic at Swansea University. Before starting work with the commission, I drew up a report on second homes for the Welsh Government.

Thank you. A very warm welcome to you also. And Gwennan.

Good morning. I'm Gwennan Higham. I'm a senior lecturer in Welsh at Swansea University. At the moment, I'm on secondment to IAITH: The Welsh Centre for Language Planning. I'm a member of the commission and contribute in light of my research in terms of inclusion, multiculturalism and the Welsh language.

Thank you very much and a warm welcome to all three of you. You wanted to make a presentation at the beginning before we go into questions, I believe.

I think that that might be useful, yes. What we'll do, I think, is get Elin to say a few words on the linguistic and sociolinguistic position in Wales. That is pertinent. Then I will say a few words on the work of the commission to date. I think that would also be relevant to the current inquiry. And then Gwennan will tell us about the work that has been done or where we think the work will take us in terms of our inquiry into lower density areas, and perhaps Elin and I will contribute to that, too. And then we'd be happy, of course, to answer any questions that you may have, and we are grateful to the committee for the invitation to be here. I think it's important to put that on the record.

Great.

Thank you very much. So, one of the things in the research area in which I've been working for 30 years now is looking at the situation of different languages—what we call minority languages, regional languages, minoritised languages—mainly across Europe, but also with some association with other parts of the world. And one of the things, as we've been looking at this work over a long period of time, is that we know that there is an important relationship between knowledge of the language and also the use of the language, and language use across a number of different areas. And some of those areas are areas that are being regulated quite intensely—areas such as education, for example—that are provided on the whole through the public sector, but also there are a number of other areas that are very important for minority languages in terms of social use that arises outside of those areas that are regulated. A clear example of that, of course, is sport, and the important use that we've seen in Wales over the last decade in particular in terms of the increase in the social use of sport at the highest level possible that we have.

Over the years, of course, the emphasis has increasingly been on elements relating to digital technology, social media, and also reflecting the kind of life that we're living at the moment, in this period of history, where perhaps the social weave is more fragile than it's been in the past, that people's lives are more insular, perhaps, have been atomised, and so on. And what we're seeing in reality now, across the minority languages in Europe, is that where there is intentional language planning and where there are progressive policies, we're seeing what we're calling 'community turn', namely that there is a shift happening in policy areas and research areas that takes us back somewhat to the geographical aspect, takes us back to that day-to-day social fabric, and also takes us to social use of these languages outside of education systems and so forth.

And therefore one of the important things that’s happening across other languages now is looking at the relationship between those areas where the percentage of speakers is higher and those areas where the percentage of speakers is medium or lower, and one of the important things that we can see in looking at that situation in the Welsh context is that we’re looking at a continuous geographical linguistic continuum. That is, we’re not looking at islands here and there of high density and then nothing, and then a few islands; these aren’t enclaves, that’s not what we’re talking about in the context of Wales and the Welsh context, but rather the continuum. And also what’s important is that we’re looking at the interdependency between the areas where there is higher density and those areas where the density is medium or lower. And if we look at that continuum as a map, we also can see, in terms of north Wales, that we’re going right to the border with England if we're looking at areas with medium density. So, we can see what the structure of our country is; we know what the pathways are in terms of travel, work, socialising and so forth.

Forgive me for a second.

Fine.

Is it okay if we just wait till the end of the—. Or was there something specifically on this?

Yes. Absolutely, yes.

And therefore, we think that this idea of the continuum and the interdependency is completely central to the way that we look at high-density areas, medium-density areas and lower density areas in Wales, and that each of those areas contributes to the national picture. I’ll stop there.

Just before we go on,

Gareth, if there was something you wanted to ask,

I'm sure you'd be happy to take a question at this point.

Yes, of course.

Gareth, you're welcome to ask a question.

I just wanted to give some feedback on the point about north Wales. Obviously, you’re talking about north-east Wales, areas like Flintshire and Wrexham; we talk about the lower-density areas in those places. What specific provisions do you think would be best to deal with those sort of border issues in comparison to other areas, perhaps the west of Wales, whereby we can have a bit more of a parity of esteem and equal opportunities to people, no matter where they live in Wales?

Exactly, exactly.

No, I think that’s a good question. I come from Holywell as it happens, and I was brought up in that area; I attended school there.

Great place.

Oh, yes? Oh, right. [Laughter.] Very good.

My mother’s side of the family are from Holywell, yes.

Excellent.

Fantastic. I had a great upbringing in Holywell. That upbringing gave me—. Well, as with every upbringing, it’s very formative, and I went to school in Ysgol Gwenffrwd in Holywell, and then I went to Ysgol Glan Clwyd after that, and I think that that upbringing in that period of time in an area where industry was strong when I was small in the 1970s, and then industry declined during the 1980s, that industrial upbringing was very important. It’s a close community, it’s a warm community, and there was—. Even at that time, there was innovation in terms of bringing Welsh language services to people who attended Welsh-medium schools. I think what we need to do in the north-east specifically is ensure that basic things are available for young people to use the language outside the school. When I was in school, I’d go to chapel, for example. These days, perhaps families with young children don’t use that social structure to use the language outside school. There was an aelwyd yr Urdd. There were swimming lessons available through the medium of Welsh and those sorts of things.

Today, I think it's really important that we create opportunities for children and young people to use the language outside of school, but, as we do that, we have to also invest in workplaces, spaces, in contexts where people can use the Welsh language—that that is just the normal thing to do—because, more often than not, if we have to choose to use the Welsh language, we usually choose contrary to the expectation.

This is also a body of work that comes from Catalonia—well, not from Catalonia itself, but in the Catalan context, from the area of Majorca, Minorca, and so on, the islands. One of the things they have there is, if we have to choose a language, we usually choose contrary to the expectation. If I go to the national library in Aberystwyth, I don't choose to speak Welsh. If I chose a language there, I would choose to speak English, wouldn't I, because Welsh would be the norm, wouldn't it? And what we need are more spaces where the Welsh language is the norm. The north-east is a perfect example of where that could be used to convert the knowledge of Welsh that we give through the education system into social use of the Welsh language. Also, sport is another obvious example.

Thank you very much for that. Thank you.

Well, I agree with everything that Elin has said. Perhaps I will say a few words on the general vision of the commission. I think there are two things that are crucial about the Welsh language in the commission's view: it is a national language—that is crucially important to us—and it is also a community language, and our aim is to try and deliver on those two things. So, I think the first thing to say about our work is that we presume that it should be a virtuous thing that most policies are delivered on a national basis, without variation, across the country. There are some things in our lives as citizens that are universal, so things such as the rights of Welsh speakers, the right to education, broadcasting, policies in areas such as place names and so on. These things are things that need to be consistent across the whole country. For that reason, we haven't discussed some of those areas in detail in our report, not because they're not important, but because we are looking at the community aspect. We take it for granted that these things should be available nationally.

What the commission has been focusing on is what is the community response in terms of social use of the language, and I believe we are in favour of having a national framework, but, a little like policy on second homes, there is an argument for allowing or facilitating or creating the possibility of having divergence of policy within that framework. So, that doesn't mean that one would have to vary policy, but I do think that it would be a good thing that the potential exists to do that.

So, in terms of the higher density communities, the communities where the majority speak Welsh, those communities are quite similar, not just in linguistic terms, but also socioeconomically, when you look at them. The main thing that impacts the Welsh language there is socioeconomic issues, socioeconomic issues that don't relate directly to language as such, and also community sustainability. That's the main thing.

Then, when one moves to communities where there are fewer Welsh speakers, and particularly communities where there's been a language shift from Welsh to English historically but we're trying to regenerate the Welsh language, what one sees there is that the main challenge is to try and get the Welsh language out of the education system and put it back into the community.

Now, these two roles are just as important as each other, because the Welsh language is just as important wherever we are in Wales. But you could argue that perhaps you need different strategies or a different emphasis in different places in order to deliver what we all want to see, namely a bilingual Wales where the Welsh language is used on a community level in various different ways, across the whole country, as I said.

So, this idea of areas of higher density linguistic significance that the commission has, all this is is a public policy tool in order to try to allow policy variation. Now, the commission drew up its report on that, and it is now looking at areas with medium or low density of Welsh speakers. We think if we designate areas of higher density linguistic significance, if the Government decides to recommend that, clearly there will be parts of Wales where a debate could be had as to whether they should be included or not. We’re of the view that that should be at the discretion of local representatives, that is, that local accountability should be important in those areas. Therefore, in terms of medium density communities, very often, we mean the kind of community where one could have a discussion on the basis of discretion as to whether they should be included in this definition or not. So, one is talking about areas such as the Swansea valley, perhaps the north of Swansea, maybe Llanelli, Rhosllanerchrugog in Clwyd and so on. These are areas where one could make a case perhaps that local accountability is what is important there. So, we will be looking at these areas as a commission during this phase of our work, and indeed we are convening a working group to do this in Pontardawe in two or three weeks’ time to start that work.

We will also seek to look at the Welsh diaspora. I'm more than happy to answer questions on that this morning. But I think that the main aim of our work—it’s not the diaspora, although it is hugely important; of course, I'd say that, being a Welsh speaker from London myself—. In the commission's view, a common feature of many of these communities is that they have seen a language shift. With a very few exceptions along the periphery of our nation, every community in Wales is a community where the Welsh language has been used socially, very often within living memory. But we need to overturn that language shift, and we will need to do that in a way that is sensitive to some of the problems that have arisen in other nations where you can expand the education system but you don't perhaps cross the bridge successfully in terms of seeing community use. That's, I think, where we would want to focus our attention as a commission. With those words, I will turn to Gwennan, who will say a few words about our work in that area.

Yes. So, we're looking at a number of different themes. It's important to note that we haven't decided on any policy recommendations, and we're happy to discuss the themes with you. So, I just want to note a couple of them that I’m working on, and perhaps Simon and Elin can talk a little bit more about others later on.

So, we have an interest in the idea of an individual's language journey. For example, how—. Well, perhaps it’s worth saying that it's a concept that's used in the academic world and internationally, in Catalonia, for example, and Quebec, and in other minority contexts. The idea is that individuals on their language journey turn towards the language, or turn away from it, at different times and turning points in their lives.

An example of that perhaps is individuals who learn Welsh in school and then drop it after that. I'm an example of that, as we're talking about our personal journeys: I'm someone from Cardiff who went to a Welsh-medium school in Cardiff, and then went to London, with no wish, in a way, to come back and be involved with the Welsh language. My ticket to come back to Welsh was because I studied other languages. But certainly that is something that is of interest to us, namely young people who leave school and the link, then, with the workplace—what are the opportunities available, how can we encourage them to go back to the workplace and the opportunities that can be offered in the workplace?

It's also part of our research work with those new Welsh speakers. Our research shows, for example, that those people who come into a country and establish themselves here—that is a turning point in itself, and their introduction to the Welsh language is something that can introduce a feeling of belonging and integration in their new country. So, we want to look at how we can ensure that linguistic continuum and what sort of structures are required to be in place to do that.

So, another theme is the idea of emotion and feelings towards the language. I think it's important to look at relationships between first-language Welsh speakers and, of course, new Welsh speakers that are nearly fluent, fluent or even people who are reluctant to speak the language, or don't have the confidence to speak the language—how can we include them completely in the community? Again, that is an area that I'm looking at with people moving into Wales who perhaps speak different languages, but I think confidence is an important element to look at, and that everybody is included as valid Welsh speakers. So, in all of this, we're considering the community as a kind of crossroads in terms of social use, and we're looking at it at a micro level to have an insight into all the different dynamics and tensions in the community.

Just one other thing, from the perspective of equality and inclusion, the idea that 'Cymraeg for all' is rooted in the commission, and that means equality, access to everybody, certainly, and ensuring that there are language pathways available. Certainly, my work looks at the idea that we are trying to get rid of barriers, be they attitudes, lack of access, lack of information, but also meeting the needs of different groups of people in Wales.

I'm not sure whether it's relevant, but one example that I'm very proud of in Wales is the example of the Urdd welcoming refugees from Afghanistan, and the bilingual welcome that was given to them from the beginning. I think it has shown that linguistic continuum has continued after that, that they've had a positive experience, that the Welsh language has given them something in addition, and it's followed, then, that parents are choosing Welsh-medium education for their children. I think it's also important, of course, to make that link between what is happening. I know there have been challenges in relation to that, with local authorities perhaps not allowing all of those children to have Welsh-medium education, but that is the type of thing, I think, that is of interest to us, certainly. Thank you.

Elin, do you have anything to add in terms of the work of the—?

Well, I look forward to answering your questions, clearly, but very, very briefly, we have a great interest in language transmission—transmission not only through the education system, but also through families, and also language transmission on a community level and language transmission in terms of what one would call peer to peer, reinforcing the language in terms of people of the same age, but also people of different generations transferring the language outside of their own families. I also saw that that is something of interest to you.

We are looking at patterns across Wales and so on, and on different kinds of families, and how diverse families, where children don't necessarily live in the same home as the same adults throughout their lives, as is the case for me personally, with my family, as it happens. We also look at elements around social class and to what extent—. As you saw from the work in the commission's first phase, but also with this wok, that is tied quite closely to the work of Prosiect Bro and I lead Prosiect Bro in Wales, too. So, that project looks at this element of social class and the Welsh language, as well as looking at other elements.

So, all of these elements influence social fabric, the importance of communities across Wales, equality and social justice too, in order to ensure equal access to the Welsh language, which as you say, and we agree, belongs to us all.

Thank you so much. I think Heledd wants to come in on something that you were saying there, I think.

If I may, may I ask in terms of the research capacity you have? Clearly, these are huge areas. One of the challenges that we find sometimes when we scrutinise is the lack of data, particularly with people's personal language journey, for example. If somebody decides not to go to a Welsh-medium school but to an English one, not every authority, perhaps, is asking why or is trying to understand. We've been trying to understand whether it is because there's no bus available to the Welsh-medium school, or trying to understand what the reasons are.

And also in terms of the different kinds of families, clearly, I was brought up in a high-density area, and am living now in a low-density area, and seeing through the education system that the idea in planning, quite often, is that every child who goes to school doesn't have any Welsh at all, and it can be quite insular for children, perhaps, who are being brought up in Welsh-speaking households in low-density areas. So, I was just trying to understand what capacity will you have to look at all the variety of different kinds of families and the different experiences of different people, because it is a very different experience living in a Welsh household in a low-density area, or to go through an education system and having opportunities. What support is available to you for you to be able to follow that and look at it in detail?

It's a very pertinent question. The commission is entirely independent in terms of the policy decisions that we make, and that has been respected by Government at every stage. The commission isn't a statutory entity, as it were, so we don't have our own budget, in the sense that I, as chair, can direct that a particular piece of research should happen. But to be entirely honest, in the context of the work that we are doing, it is unlikely that we will have an opportunity to do new research, because that would take time, of course. And we are eager to report on time, so I don't think that one could commission new research as part of our work.

What we can do, of course, is to make recommendations for future research, and certainly, if the committee had any ideas on that, we as a commission would be very interested to hear from you. That is certainly a possibility and something that we could do. But in terms of this work, it is likely that we would rely on already published research.

It's worth me saying too as chair that the Government does fund the project that Elin is involved with, Prosiect Bro, which looks at the community use of the Welsh language in areas of higher density linguistic significance. In my view, as one who is not involved in the project, I do think that perhaps there is a rational argument that such work could be done in lower density communities too. It's not entirely clear to us, for example, what exactly the community use of the Welsh language in detail is in the suburbs of Cardiff, for example, in Pontypridd, for example, or in Caerphilly. We have a broad idea through the census, of course, but we don't have a very detailed study on a community level. That will be provided through Prosiect Bro in higher density communities. There's an argument that the same should be done in other communities in Wales too.

And when Prosiect Bro reports, that sort of picture that's just been described now will be the sort of picture that's captured through different modules that are in the project Bro: for example, a module that analyses the data; a module that works with families with three to four-year old children, and comparing that data with the data that's coming through the pupil level annual school census; a module that looks at the use and attitudes towards the Welsh language of young people in workplaces, in areas that I would call semi-public, so leisure centres, that kind of thing—the use of language there and people's attitudes and patterns. Also there's the detailed community work from door to door asking individuals—literally door to door, knock, knock, knock, and talking to people and asking them about their language use and their attitudes and their feelings too.

With the school continuum, sometimes even if the Welsh-medium school is very close to home, childcare can be a factor that can trump everything, and people don't then go on with bilingual education or Welsh-medium education because other members of the family will be collecting the child, and that coincides with where other relatives have gone. We had a couple of examples of that as well.

Thank you.

I think, in terms of our presentation, that draws it to a close, perhaps. The only other thing I would say that is interesting is the economy and workplaces. Now, when one considers this concept of a language journey, which can be chronological, of course—one's journey through life. Where do you use the Welsh language on that journey? If you are in a situation, perhaps, where your partner is not a Welsh speaker and your friends and family perhaps aren't Welsh speakers, where would you then use the Welsh language beyond school age? I think we will be looking at workplaces to see whether the economy can provide some sort of context in that regard. We have no answers on that as of yet, I have to admit, because we will be looking at that in a few months' time. But it is an area where I do anticipate that we will focus on in some detail, and, once again, look at work that is happening in an international context too.

It is worth saying that this is an area where we may benefit from looking at some lessons learnt from the nations of the Spanish state in particular. Catalonia is quite large; the Basque Country, of course, is the most similar to us in terms of size and profile. We are fortunate that Elin can read those languages, so we do hope that we will be able to draw in some academic research from an international context into our work. That is something that hasn't happened in Wales as much as it should have happened, perhaps, so we will try to do that too as part of our work as a commission.

And with those few words, it's back to you and we're happy to answer any questions that you may have, of course.

Excellent. Well, very, very interesting. Thank you so much. Before we go to questions, Gareth has said first that he wanted to ask a question, and then I'll go to Lee. So, Gareth.

It's just on the Catalonia comparison. I love Catalonia, I love Barcelona, but, obviously, the draw and the charm of Barcelona does enhance the Catalonian language as primarily above the Spanish, in essence. So, in terms of how that's converted in comparison to Wales, what would be the generating hub and the engine behind that that would drive that comparison with Catalonia as a direct comparison?

You're entirely right, of course, about the powerhouse that is Barcelona as an economic driver that's hugely important not only for the region, I would say, of Catalonia, but for the whole of Spain too. What that also means is that there is great population movement in Catalonia too, where many millions of additional people have moved from different parts of the world to Catalonia too. Their current education system is Catalan education for all. So, everyone, from every family, and from every barrio—or barri as it is in Catalan—from every area of every city, attends Catalan-medium education. That is one of the main ways that they have had of trying to provide Catalan for all. That's been one of the fundamental principles since they achieved democracy 40 years ago.

If we look at individual comparisons between Wales and Catalonia, what we can also see are elements regarding the difference between knowledge of the language and use of the language. So, young people in Catalonia also use social media very heavily in Spanish. There's a tendency for us to think that English is the global language in terms of social media, and therefore that maybe the leap or the relationship is 'Catalan or English'. But, no, Spanish is very, very strong as the language of social media. So, we can look at how young people's attitudes, in terms of their daily use of language, how they think of themselves if they've only had Catalan in school and that there is no-one around them in the areas where they live using that language. So, we can look at those elements, but it's also true when we look at areas of Wales where tourism is very, very influential. We can look at elements outside Catalonia but which relate to the Catalan language, and look at Majorca, Menorca, Ibiza, and so on, and look at the relationship then between areas where tourism is highly developed and the linguistic sustainability in those areas.

I also think that we could look closer to home. Clearly, I'm very interested in these areas of Spain, but there are fantastic examples in Belfast, for example. And one great example from Belfast is a group of young men in their 20s, two of them working and campaigning for the Irish language in Belfast, this group of friends had been friends since school days, had gone to Irish-medium education, came from families where their parents didn't speak the language, and they were now in their 20s and spoke English with each other. And then they just thought, 'Well, what are we going to do for the rest of our lives? Are we going to continue just speaking English with each other for the rest of our lives, put our own children, when we have them, into Irish-medium education, but we'll still be conversing in English with each other, and then trying to encourage the children to speak Irish with each other, but we don't do that ourselves?' So, what that group of people did—they were men—was they came together and they had an honest, emotional and safe conversation about their feelings about the language, and then, over time, they decided, 'Right, well I actually want to speak the Irish language'; another said, 'Well, I really don't want to, but I will hear it from you.' And I think that examples like that are examples of things that we could do if we think slightly differently about the language.

And the emotion—. That's something—. And by the way, I know Mick wanted to come in, and I haven't forgotten you, Lee—I know that you want to come in too.

Oh, sorry.

Na, ddim o gwbl. Ond mae'r emosiwn yna, roedd hwnna'n—. Mae ein straeon personol ni yn mynd i fod mor unigol gyda phethau fel hyn. Roedd beth roeddech chi newydd ei ddweud, roedd e'n fy atgoffa fi o'r ffaith, yn yr ysgol—so, roeddwn i'n mynd i'r ysgol yn y Cymoedd—doedd hi ddim yn cŵl i siarad Cymraeg y tu fas i'r ystafell ddosbarth. So, roedd nifer fawr iawn o blant yn yr ysgol a bron neb yn siarad Cymraeg ar yr iard, ac wedyn, ar ôl gadael yr ysgol, yn sydyn reit, roedd pobl yn dechrau sylweddoli beth roedden nhw ar fin ei golli ac wedyn yn cymryd y naid yna i fod eisiau siarad Cymraeg, er doedd e ddim yn arfer bod yn rhywbeth oedd yn cael ei ystyried yn rhywbeth—. Achos ei fod e'n rhywbeth am yr ysgol. Mae'r teimladau yna mor gymhleth, ac mae hwnna'n eithriadol o bwysig. Ond dwi'n gwybod bod Lee—. Mick, oeddech chi eisiau dod mewn ar hyn yn benodol, ac wedyn fe wnaf i fynd at Lee ar ôl hynna?

I just wanted to come in, because I hear many of these examples, and we focus on these examples here and there—that this is really, really good, this is happening, et cetera—but, to be honest, it's largely irrelevant to the majority of the local community and population. The key factor is this, and we saw this when we were in the Basque area, where large numbers are coming out of schools now, able to speak Basque, but they'll revert to Spanish and so on. The crux of it is really motivation: what is it that motivates people to want to use the language, to feel that they should be using it? And it seems to me, unless we understand that properly, what fits within that, we're never really going to tackle the broader problem. The danger is focusing too much on what I think—. You know, the example you've given is a fantastic example, but I think it is an exceptional example, and I don't think it relates to the majority of people who we see coming out of schools, Welsh-medium schools, who will automatically revert to English. And that is an example that is repeated in many, many countries all around the world, where languages are under threat. So, how do you propose to address that issue of motivation, because unless people want to speak a language, they're not going to? It's one thing about obviously facilitating those who do, and all those issues, but there is a much deeper issue, it seems to me, with languages in this global world we're in.

Thank you, Mick. I'll ask you to go back to Mick on that, and then I'll go to Lee, who wanted to ask a separate question, I think. Thanks, Mick.

At Mick? Iawn. Ie, mae'r motivation, mae'r ysgogiad i ddefnyddio iaith yn arbennig o bwysig, onid ydy? Heb hwnna, rydym ni i gyd yn o leiaf dwyieithog, ac felly mae gennym ni fwy nag un repertoire ieithyddol, neu adnoddau ieithyddol, rydym ni'n gallu eu dewis. Mae'r berthynas emosiynol—mae yna nifer o enghreifftiau o hynny wedi codi bore yma'n barod. Mae pobl hefyd, onid ydyn, yn sôn am eu perthynas nhw efo'r iaith pan fyddan nhw'n gosod eu hunain i fyny mewn sefyllfa o fod yn arbenigo mewn rhywbeth, onid ydyn? Dydych chi ddim o angenrheidrwydd yn disgwyl i bobl sydd yn arbenigo ym maes iechyd i fod yn datgelu eu hanes iechyd personol nhw wrth roi tystiolaeth, ond efallai fod y byd yna'n newid hefyd.

Mae'r syniad o'r berthynas emosiynol, y berthynas o berthyn, y berthynas o gyd-fwynhau, o ddod at ein gilydd, fel sy'n digwydd mewn gemau pêl-droed ac yn y blaen. Rydym ni'n gwybod bod yna gymhelliad economaidd mewn rhai ardaloedd, ac mae Gwlad y Basg yn enghraifft o le mae yna gymhelliad economaidd i fod efo sgiliau yn y ddwy iaith, oherwydd bod yna ofyniad ieithyddol ar gymaint o swyddi yn y sector cyhoeddus. A dwi'n dweud y ddwy iaith i olygu Sbaeneg a Basgeg, oherwydd mai dim ond yn y gyfundrefn yna mae'n berthnasol. Ond hyd yn oed mewn cyd-destunau lle mae yna ofyniad neu mae yna ysgogiad economaidd, mae'r ysgogiad emosiynol, yr ysgogiad cymunedol o berthyn, yn dal yn bwysig iawn. Achos rydym ni hefyd yn gweld, o edrych ar yr hyn sy'n digwydd yng Ngwlad y Basg, fod yna nifer o gyd-destunau lle mae pobl yn defnyddio'r iaith ar gyfer eu swyddi, ond wedyn yn defnyddio Sbaeneg i gymdeithasu efo'n union yr un bobl ag y maen nhw'n defnyddio'r iaith yna efo nhw ar gyfer eu swyddi.

Felly, er mwyn inni feddwl am sut mae'r iaith yn gweithio yn emosiynol ac yn seicolegol, rydym ni yn gallu edrych ar ein hunain fel unigolion, ond rydym ni hefyd yn gallu edrych ar ein hunan fel cymuned ac fel torf ac yn genedlaethol neu'n rhanbarthol—pa bynnag ffordd rydym ni eisiau edrych—mewn ffordd collective. Dwi'n meddwl mai dyna beth sydd y tu ôl i'r hyn ynglŷn â beth sy'n digwydd yn Belfast ydy bod hwn—. Ydy, mae'n eithriadol, ond pan fo'r eithriadau yna yn gallu symud i fod yn fwy ac yn fwy cyffredin, a'i fod o yn dod yn normal o beth i oedolion i feddwl am eu perthynas nhw efo'r iaith, wrth iddyn nhw aeddfedu ar y daith yna o fod yn oedolion ifanc mewn addysg, mewn addysg bellach, ac yn y blaen, i fod yn oedolion hŷn, a bod hwnna'n rhywbeth sy'n digwydd, wrth inni feddwl am elfennau eraill fel cydraddoldeb, sut rydym ni'n ymddwyn rhwng y rhywiau, ac yn y blaen, ei fod o'n dod yn rhan o'n seice ni.

Diolch. Roedd Gwennan eisiau dod i mewn ar hyn, dwi'n meddwl.

Mae'n gwestiwn enfawr, a does dim un ateb, dwi'n credu, sut ydych chi'n gallu—. Mae cymhelliad yn mynd i fod yn wahanol i wahanol bobl. Ond, dwi'n credu eich bod chi'n gallu gwneud popeth i sicrhau bod dim rhwystrau yn eu lle pan fo pobl yn newid agwedd, a bod y cyfle iddyn nhw ddefnyddio'r Gymraeg—mae hwnna'n bwysig iawn. Ond dwi'n meddwl efallai bod yna le i'r system addysg—. Dwi'n gwybod bod rhai cyd-destunau ieithyddol gwahanol yn integreiddio'r syniad o godi ymwybyddiaeth ieithyddol yn y system addysg, o ran seicoleg iaith a phwysigrwydd cynllunio ieithyddol, ac efallai bod integreiddio hynny i mewn i'r system addysg yn rhywbeth ar gyfer y dyfodol. Dwi'n gwybod bod yna drafodaethau ar hyn o bryd o ran pa fath o fanteision byddai hynny'n ei roi i ysgolion Saesneg a Chymraeg.

Interesting. Thank you for that.

Lee, you've been incredibly patient.

Thank you. Did you want to ask a question as well?

Yes. Just to follow this up, really. It's a fascinating set of evidence and discussion. Just back to that international comparator point. Because clearly, we are going against the grain here. The story of minority languages around the world; it's an incredibly challenging and complex and ambitious task we've set ourselves. Is there any evidence, though, of this working anywhere? Is the shift of social forces so strong that we are swimming against the tide to such an extent that we are unlikely to succeed? What encouragement can we draw from international comparators that this is doable?

Okay. Thank you. Can I take—?

Yes, you can.

You're right in saying that the emphasis across the globe on maintaining and developing linguistic diversity is huge. And we know, don't we, that we are looking at the loss of languages and linguistic diversity across the globe at an unprecedented scale. If we were to look at where the Welsh language fits into that bigger picture in terms of the 7,000 languages that exist across the globe, we're in the higher echelons; there's no doubt about that. We are almost in the premier league of languages, and not just of minority languages, but languages in general. That is, we are in the higher percentages of those languages that have a good chance of surviving and continuing into the foreseeable future.

If we look at those areas that are on the same kind of trajectory as ourselves, then we do have to look at those areas where there is significant investment in those languages. We have to look at areas where there is official status for those languages, where there is institutional investment in them and so on; where there are things, of course, such as media, where there are linguistic resources like as dictionaries and so on and so forth. So, we do have to look at that across education and all sorts of areas of public administration and so on. If we are looking at those areas where there are progressive policies, then we can see a definite increase in the numbers and percentage of people who can speak those languages, and we need only look at the Basque Country and Catalonia for that.

We can also see that language use—. If we look at the Basque Country, we can look at language use. So, language use can be consistent across the past 40 years, according to the system that they have used to look at language use. So, what we are seeing there is that over a period of time, the number of speakers has increased, the percentage of speakers has gone up, but the language use percentage has remained static.

So, what that tells us is that more people are able to speak the language, that they do use the language, but perhaps they use the language less often than those people who could speak Basque 40 years ago. That is, the population in general terms is becoming more bilingual and that those who can speak Basque speak Spanish more often than the generation or two before did, but also that people whose grandparents might have come from other parts of Spain to the Basque Country, so the grandparents couldn't speak Basque at all, but the next generation, or the next two generations can speak the language.

So, what we're seeing over time is: yes, these languages can be sustained, but you need more people to be able to use them to maintain that level of usage, because our personal usage is declining. I don't know if I've explained myself very well there.

Lee.

That's very interesting, and you say we are in the premier league internationally, but our story is that of slowing decline, so if the premier league is of decline, then that's not terribly encouraging, given we have a target to reverse that and double the number of Welsh speakers. The Basque example is, again, a really interesting one, but, again, that is one of not going in the trajectory we need to do. So, we've set a very ambitious target, and I think your answer to me is that there is no international evidence of this being done successfully anywhere. What we're doing is slowing decline—we're spreading the ability to use it, but not increasing the use of it. So, I just wonder—it's a deliberately provocative question—as there is no evidence that what we're setting out to do here has been done anywhere else. It doesn't mean we can't do it, of course, but it's just to put it in the context of the task we're up against.

Pan fyddaf i'n siarad am y premier league, mae'n rhaid i ni gofio pethau fel, o’r 7,000 o ieithoedd sydd yna yn y byd, fod 95 y cant o'r ieithoedd hynny yn cael eu siarad gan 5 y cant o'r boblogaeth ar draws y blaned. Felly, pan fyddwn ni yn premier league, rydym ni'n cymharu ein hunain wedyn efo ieithoedd sydd, efallai, efo cwpl o gannoedd o siaradwyr, ac mae yna gymaint o ieithoedd yn mynd i farw allan yn y degawdau nesaf yma, lle mae'r siaradwyr olaf yn mynd i farw, a lle mae globaleiddio, symudedd poblogaeth ac yn y blaen, 'urban-eiddio' ac ati, wedi cyfrannu cymaint yn ystod y ganrif ddiwethaf yma.

Felly, ydyn, rydyn ni yn y premier league pan fyddwn ni’n edrych ar y darlun llawn, ond, wrth gwrs, rydyn ni'n sôn am iaith sydd yn iaith lle rydyn ni wedi gosod targed uchelgeisiol i’n hunain fel cenedl. Rydym wedi gosod targed o filiwn o siaradwyr, dyblu'r defnydd dyddiol o'r Gymraeg. Rydyn ni'n gallu gweld yng Ngwlad y Basg gynnydd sylweddol yn nifer y siaradwyr. Rydyn ni'n gallu gweld yr un peth hefyd yng Nghatalonia. Ond mae bywydau pobl yn mynd yn fwy ac yn fwy dwyieithog, felly, o ran y ffyrdd y mae angen inni eu datblygu i fesur y defnydd dyddiol yna, mae'n rhaid i ni ffeindio ffordd i fesur, ffordd sydd yn addas i ni fesur. Hynny ydy, ydyn ni’n defnyddio Cymraeg fel ein prif iaith? Ydyn ni'n defnyddio Cymraeg fel iaith rydyn ni'n ei defnyddio bob dydd? Hynny ydy, lle ydyn ni'n gosod y trothwy ar gyfer llwyddiant ar gyfer hynny? Dwi'n meddwl bod hwnnw’n gwestiwn y mae'n rhaid i ni ei ateb mewn cyd-destun Cymreig yn hytrach na defnyddio systemau sydd, efallai, yn cael eu defnyddio mewn gwledydd eraill. Beth mae’r llwyddiant yna yn edrych fel i ni ydy o, dwi'n meddwl.

I think it's an honest question, Lee. I think this is a challenging situation, but I think the way I would phrase the question is: can public policy work? What would be the effect of public policy intervention? We know in language planning that public policy can work and does work because you can see empirical evidence of that. So, two examples that jump out at me straight way: one is an urban one that I always point to when we talk about language planning, to compare Liverpool and Cardiff. They're very similar cities. Liverpool, historically, has had a bigger Welsh-speaking population than Cardiff, with a lot of Welsh language institutions in Liverpool, but no language planning work has been done in Liverpool, for reasons to do with the location of the city, and the language has collapsed. It's collapsed completely in Liverpool. In Cardiff, what we have seen, actually, demographically, is a not dissimilar situation, in terms of population movement of Welsh speakers into Cardiff in the past 40, 50, 60 years, to what happened in Liverpool a century ago. But, because of public policy intervention, by which I mean the existence of Welsh-medium schools, the fact that Welsh is part of the economy, that Welsh is in civic structures, then, clearly, the Welsh language in Cardiff is not going to disappear. So, we can see in that case that public policy intervention works.

But the other interesting case, I think, to suggest that public policy can work in language is—and I don’t want to start naming local authority areas now, because I think that would be inappropriate and unfair, but—very often, when one looks at communities that had a similar demographic profile to the community and the county next door 50 or 60 years ago, when we look at that community in a local authority area where the local authority has taken what you might call more robust attitudes towards language planning, and you look at the community in the county where maybe that hasn’t been quite as robust, then you can see, 40 or 50 years down the line, a difference, and the difference can often be quite stark.

Therefore, I think, to answer the question, 'Are we going to return to a Wales in which everybody is speaking Welsh all the time, every day?' No, we’re not. That is not going to happen. That particular part of our historical experience as a people is over and gone and is not going to come back. But there is a viable future for us a bilingual nation, in which there will be social use, primarily, of both the English and Welsh languages in different ways, and also, of course, there will be some social use too of various heritage languages in Wales as well. That’s the master future we’re looking towards. I think that’s a good public policy goal, and I think we can make interventions that help us to move to that future in a constructive manner.

Thank you. Thank you for that. We’ve got about half an hour left, and, in a natural way, a number of the things we were going to raise have been mentioned already, and that’s a good thing. So, Members, if I could ask you to be a little bit agile, because a number of things have been raised already. But before we turn to Heledd, I just wanted to ask one question. I was struck by the fact that you were talking about the Welsh context, and also the psychological barriers, perhaps, that exist in terms of our history as Welsh people with the language, in terms of the barriers that have been put in place to the language. And you were talking earlier about the census. I just wanted to ask you about people’s attitudes towards their language, and their language skills, and the gap, perhaps, that exists between the naked figures in the census—that confidence gap—and that perhaps people have more Welsh, but they don’t consider themselves as Welsh speakers, they don’t feel—. In those areas where the Welsh language doesn’t have the same density, what do you think the best way is of overcoming that challenge in terms of people’s attitudes towards their own Welsh language skills?

Wel, byddwn ni'n edrych ar hynny yn benodol. Mae yna duedd, wrth inni drafod iaith, i sôn am siaradwyr iaith gyntaf a siaradwyr ail iaith. Ac mae’n rhaid inni gofio bod yna ganran sylweddol o’n poblogaeth ni sydd rhwng y ddau begwn yna, mewn gwirionedd. Ac mewn nifer o ardaloedd—ardaloedd dwysedd canolig, er enghraifft, a hefyd mewn cymunedau dwysedd is—mae gyda ni boblogaeth sydd yn rhugl, neu bron â bod yn rhugl, a dydyn ni ddim yn gwneud, efallai, digon o ddarpariaeth ar eu cyfer nhw yn ein strategaethau ieithyddol.

Nawr, mae’n bosib bydd gan Elin neu Gwennan fwy i'w ddweud ynglŷn â hynny, ond gallaf i gadarnhau y byddwn ni fel comisiwn yn edrych ar y maes yna, achos mae hyn yn hanfodol bwysig, bod gyda ni y pool yma o unigolion, sydd yn pool sylweddol—sylweddol iawn. Rydym ni’n sôn am ddegau a degau a degau o filoedd o bobl sydd yn gallu siarad Cymraeg ond sydd ddim yn ei defnyddio hi.

A phan fyddwn ni’n edrych—. Mae Gwennan wedi cyfeirio at y trobwyntiau; yn y llenyddiaeth academaidd, mae hwnna’n dod o’r syniad o Catalonia o’r enw ‘mudes’, sydd yn drobwynt ieithyddol: trobwynt yn eich bywyd a throbwynt ieithyddol sy'n cyfateb i'r trobwynt yna. Yr enghraifft glasurol yn y man yna ydy pan fydd pobl wedi caffael yr iaith trwy'r system addysg, ddim wedi defnyddio'r iaith yn gymdeithasol o gwbl, mynd i mewn i weithle, mae deinamig newydd yn dod ac maen nhw'n defnyddio'r iaith yn y gweithle, ac wedyn mae hwnna'n drobwynt ieithyddol yn eu bywydau nhw, ac yn y blaen.

Ac wrth gwrs, os ydyn ni'n edrych ar y teithiau iaith ac ati, mae hwnna'n rhoi darlun i ni hefyd. Mae hwnna'n fecanwaith i roi darlun i ni o enghreifftiau gwahanol o beth sy'n digwydd mewn gwahanol ardaloedd ac o fewn demograffeg gwahanol. Ac mae'n arbennig o berthnasol, dwi'n meddwl, pan fyddwn ni'n edrych ar yr ardaloedd dwysedd canolig a dwysedd is, fod yna fwy nag un ffordd o gyrraedd y Gymraeg—mae Gwennan wedi sôn am y rhwystrau—fod yna fwy nag un ffordd o oresgyn y rhwystrau neu fod y rhwystrau'n dod lawr, unwaith, dwywaith, teirgwaith, pedair gwaith, pum gwaith mewn bywyd, nid dim ond unwaith ac, os ydych chi'n colli'r daith gyntaf yna, dydych chi ddim yn gallu mynd yn ôl i mewn byth eto, math o beth, neu ddim yn cael mynd i mewn o gwbl. Felly, mae'r elfen yma o'r rhwystrau sy'n atal pobl rhag gallu cyrraedd neu rhag gallu aros o fewn cyfundrefn fwy dwyieithog, mae'r rheini yn bethau pwysig iawn i edrych arnyn nhw.

Yes, I'd agree with everything that's been said. We need more spaces where people feel safe to use the language. But I think that there's a great responsibility on first-language Welsh speakers in terms of how they relate to, speak to, and help to engender confidence among reluctant second-language speakers, fluent or not fluent, rather than thinking it's work for others. And I think it's hugely important—it's a huge challenge—what we say, how we—. Because people say, 'I'm learning Welsh', but people don't want to help people to learn the language; they don't want to be a teacher. That's a huge challenge, but it's something that we should think about, perhaps.

Great. Thank you. I'll go to Heledd now.

If I could go back to the question of research and data, clearly, and what you're saying with regard to restrictions on time and the recommendations you can make, in terms of enabling your work with this second phase, in order to make recommendations, is there any engagement work going to be happening in communities, or could you perhaps outline what you intend doing?

Yes. The commission meets, broadly, every four to six weeks. We will meet, as much as possible, in different communities. Commission members come with or have a connection, all of them, with the relevant communities, and have extensive experience in any case. But we will go to different communities. We've had a number of very beneficial site visits already, in Wrexham and in Merthyr—in the Theatr Soar in Merthyr—for example, and we will also be going to Caerphilly next time, I believe. So, there is community engagement, and we call witnesses too, including young people. Young people will, hopefully, come to us in around two months' time in these sessions, and there will be engagement too at the Eisteddfod in various different ways.

We've decided not to proceed with what you might call a formal consultation, because our feeling is that this would limit the time that we have available to us on the one hand, but also it goes more broadly than that too, in the sense that, during the first work of the commission, we were looking at areas where there was quite a bit of political disagreement, to be honest, so we did launch a consultation—it wasn't statutory, but it was formal to all intents and purposes. This did take up half of the commission's timetabled work. It wasn't the best possible use of our time as a commission, so we’ve decided to work differently. We have decided to consult earlier, as it were, and to ensure that that consultation happens at every stage of the process, rather than there being a great deal of paper provided to us in six months’ time. We’re also aware that you’ve launched a consultation in this area. We have seen that you have issued a call for written evidence; if possible, we as a commission would be interested in seeing what the people of Wales have to say in response to that consultation. There was also a feeling, perhaps, in terms of asking for written responses, that we didn’t want to duplicate the work of the committee, as it were, and that if we were to launch a written consultation asking exactly the same questions as the committee at exactly the same time, there would be issues around that, but we are entirely committed to seeking responses from people as much as possible.

May I ask, in terms of young people, how do you choose these young people? Are they in Welsh-medium education? Are you going to try and have different young people who perhaps aren't Welsh speakers?

That’s currently being discussed. At the moment, the commission has allocated a date for that. I think that will happen in May. We will formalise or decide at our next meeting in April how we will do that. What I can do as chair is write to the committee providing you with information as to how exactly we will do that once the commission has come to a decision, and I will do that after—. We’re meeting next on 1 April, so I will do that as soon after 1 April as is possible.

Thank you. That would be very beneficial. May I also ask just in terms of the question with regard to data—? Clearly, we have different measures—the census, also the Welsh Government survey— and there’s been quite a lot of debate about which figures are the correct ones. Do you see a role for yourselves as a commission, perhaps, in being able to provide the Government with advice in terms of what data is useful for language planning, and what would be useful? Because, clearly, some of the data that’s going to enable us to make the right recommendations isn’t perhaps available at the moment, but it doesn’t mean that we don’t need that data for the future.

Yes, exactly. As you’ve set out, there is a difference, isn’t there, not only between the numbers and percentages coming through those two main yardsticks, but there has been a change of trajectory in terms of the trends in those figures, and a piece of work is currently being prepared to look at those differences and to address the differences in the data to see what accounts for it.

Now, in terms of looking to see which figures are correct, well, I think until that work is done it would be unwise to actually address that question directly, but, as we look at quantitative data, data across the country, we also need to look at qualitative data too, which provides us with an interpretation within specific contexts, and within age groups, within different sociolinguistic situations, so it’s age, class, gender, and so on and so forth. So, we need to look at more comprehensive data than what is provided just through those two sources. As I said earlier, Prosiect Bro is focusing at this stage on those areas of higher density, but it would be beneficial to use the same methodologies for areas of medium or lower density too, and that would provide, then, a more comprehensive picture.

Certainly, you have persuaded me, if not the whole committee, of the need for that. If I could just ask in terms of education—? In your first report, there were recommendations regarding early years provision and also in terms of immersion. What consideration have you given to that those need to be national recommendations, compared with differentiating between areas with a higher or lower density?

The only reason why there is reference to immersion in the first report and not in the second is because the second report hasn't yet been written. That is true of a number of different areas, of course.

Immersion is one of the great success stories in this area. I'm sure that the commission would be entirely supportive of expanding immersion provision and intensifying that provision in all parts of Wales. It's crucial, of course, in higher density areas, for not only linguistic reasons but also reasons of social inclusivity in communities. In communities where the Welsh language is used on a daily basis, you can't have children who feel that they don't have access to the language that is used as a community language. That would be entirely inappropriate in an equality context, I would feel, but there are arguments in terms of social justice and equality, I think, in terms of immersion in lower density areas too.

Gwennan has been leading on that kind of work on inclusivity and the Welsh language. I don't know if you want to say anything about immersion.

Nothing specific, but perhaps, out of interest, we have a project ongoing with Mudiad Meithrin and Iaith, where we're looking at majority communities worldwide and their access to the Welsh language, and looking at the barriers, perhaps, and their needs. That happens to have been funded by the Welsh Government, so perhaps that will be of interest in due course.

Thank you. If I may, just one other element is additional learning needs, and the inequalities with regard to the postcode lottery in Wales, which has come through in a number of reports and inquiries by Senedd committees. Is that an element that will come into that as well?

I agree, I do think—. Well, we need more investment in meeting additional learning needs. That's an important area, and I do have a researcher that is currently looking at that specifically, and that is also funded by the Welsh Government, as it happens. So, there will be recommendations and some field work done in that area.

Thank you.

Okay? Great, thanks. Lee, did you have any further questions you wanted to ask?

No, I'm happy to leave my questions, Chair.

Thank you. Gareth, was there anything else you wanted to raise?

Yes, I just wanted to come in, just about—. I'm not necessarily an advocate of Government and authorities impeding too much on informal settings and things like social hubs, pubs and that sort of thing, because there's only so far that the Government should be reaching into those areas. But in terms of looking at some of those informal settings and how perhaps we can look at turning informal settings and encouraging the Welsh language in places like community centres, warm hubs et cetera, those community areas within our localities where the Welsh language can be enhanced in a way that is not Government led and it's not very statist, but then, at the same time, it's achieving its goal. It might be out of my mind how to achieve that, but I think it can be done as well. So, have you got a professional take on how that could be achieved, perhaps?

Of course, the Government, does actually reach into pubs, doesn't it, for example with a tax on beer. I'm not saying that that tax should be reduced if you ask for your pint through the medium of Welsh. That's not what we mean, we haven't got to that point yet. [Laughter.]

But the private sector is hugely important in terms of people's language use. We shop in the private sector, we put fuel in our vehicles in the private sector, we very often access all sorts of public services through the private sector. So, it's quite important, I think, that we try to think how we can progress Welsh language elements in the private and third sectors, and in the higher density and the medium and lower density areas, in terms of how we can actually engender social change in terms of increasing the use of the language.

Because we know, if we look historically, that the chapels have been crucial in supporting the Welsh language through the twentieth century, by providing spiritual as well as social support for individuals and communities. Given that that forum is nowhere near as strong as it has been in the past, then we do have to find new fora for that.

I do think that sport in particular can be an excellent way of bringing the Welsh language to life, as we've seen through the excellent work done by the Football Association of Wales recently in bringing the Welsh language closer to the everyday lives of people who don't use the language every day, and providing opportunities to bring people together, to use the Welsh language in a crowd situation, and to do that one-to-one and through coaching and training and so on. There are many schemes that we could put in place there.

I agree with Elin about sport. I think that sport is extremely interesting from a language point of view, especially community-based sport, because two things jump out about it. I have to be careful what I say as a 53-year-old man, but by and large it does tend to be played more by people maybe who are of a slightly younger profile than myself, which is quite interesting linguistically. You are reaching a lot of teenagers, a lot of people in their 20s, people in their early 30s. We know that this is a group that linguistically can be quite hard to reach, so that makes sport very interesting.

The other thing to say about community-based sport too is that it is a social activity that tends to be open to people of varying and various social backgrounds. There’s a lot of activity that takes place in our communities that doesn’t actually fit that profile. It can be more frequented by people from a particular background or maybe a particular social class background, but community-based sport does have perhaps a greater tendency than other activities to actually break across that, and for that reason too I think it’s extremely useful.

So, I think that what goes on on the rugby fields and the football fields and the hockey fields of Wales, and in netball and basketball and everything, I think it’s actually quite significant in terms of its potential at a community level.

Thank you, Gareth. Did Heledd want to come in on the back of this? Yes, and then I'll come back to Gareth.

Just in terms of community assets, clearly you had very strong recommendations—is it your intention to look at some of these centres? You were talking about Theatr Soar. Obviously, I'd always want to promote Clwb y Bont—I need to declare that I’m a member of Clwb y Bont, like many people in the area—and know its role in terms of how many people in the Pontypridd area have learnt Welsh in Clwb y Bont in an informal, natural way.

One of the things you were talking about were the chapels, and, obviously, with so many chapels closing—. That's traditionally where the cylchoedd meithrin were held. One of the challenges I hear quite often is people saying that we don’t have any community assets anymore, or that they're not affordable and so forth. So, it is a consideration for you, I'm sure, and the Government’s role in terms of community assets and how we support them is something that you'll be looking at.

We will be certainly looking at community assets and community centres. This is another example of an area where there is a great deal of reference to in our first report, but not in the second because the second is yet to be written. Once it has been drafted, then there will be discussion on the issue.

What is happening in relation to community assets is another success story. It’s an example of being able to promote economic development, social inclusion, community inclusion, and promoting the Welsh language all simultaneously. It ticks all of the boxes. So, that is why, in our first report, it is given so much attention, because it is a success story. I think we say in our recommendations that this should happen in areas of higher density linguistic significance, but we also say that it should be rolled out through the whole of Wales, I think, in our recommendation, and we will be scrutinising how we can do that during our work.

Thank you for that.

Gareth, did you have a final question?

No.

No. Happy? Diolch. Mick, was there anything else that you wanted to ask?

I think most have been answered, but just very quickly, what role do you specifically see, if there is one, practically, with regard to the Welsh diaspora with regard to any of this?

Fascinating—the Welsh diaspora. I'm a Londoner. I come from a Welsh family in south-west London. I was very active in the London Welsh community before moving to Wales to go to university. So, I have a personal interest in this. I'm also writing a book at the moment about second-generation identities in England. I go to diasporic events a lot. I was in Coventry, actually, over the weekend in a Welsh language event on the Friday night, which was actually held between the Welsh and the Ukrainian community in Coventry, which was fascinating.

In terms of what it means for public policy, the first thing to say is that our linguistic community does extend beyond the borders of Wales. We don't know how many Welsh speakers there are outside Wales. We think there are probably about 50,000 to 100,000 Welsh speakers from Wales living in other parts of the UK who speak Welsh, but we have no way to prove that. But that is our gambit. We also have, in England, a number of people—again, we don't how much, but we think probably 10,000, 15,000—who are second-generation Welsh speakers. These are people who have never lived in Wales, who were born and brought up in England—they speak Welsh. Often they're fluent in Welsh, but they struggle with writing Welsh, for example—they have a particular profile. But there also exists in England, in particular, too people without Welsh heritage who use the Welsh language and contribute to Welsh community activities. In Manchester, for example, there's a Welsh language author, called Simon Chandler, who, really, does much of the community leadership there. He's a Welsh language novelist. He's not of Welsh heritage, he's from England; he's always lived there and makes a huge contribution.

So, the question is, if we do have between 100,000 to 150,000 Welsh speakers outside Wales, primarily in England, 90 per cent in England, at a time when we know that technology means that we can actually look beyond the purely physical in terms of geography, is there anything more that these people could be doing to contribute to the language community? Because if we do have, let's say, one in six Welsh speakers outside Wales, that's actually quite a significant body of people for a minority-language community. I don't think that, in the past, they have contributed as much as might have happened. I think we should look at that. I think there's an argument too in terms of economic development in Wales. That is to say, were the connections between Wales and the diaspora to be stronger, would some of these people be more likely to come back to Wales? I have no academic evidence to offer you on this, but common sense and the rule of thumb suggest that, maybe, if people were in closer contact with Wales and Welsh culture, they might be more likely to make that life choice, although we don't know that. I think that's quite interesting.

I think it's interesting too, philosophically, in terms of a wider debate about heritage languages in the UK. Because my own personal identity is as a Welsh speaker living in Wales, because I live in Wales now and I speak Welsh, but my personal identity is also of the speaker of a heritage language from London, because that's my personal background when I was a Welsh speaker. I spoke Welsh to my mother. I was taught to write Welsh by the deputy head of the comprehensive school that I attended, who happened to be the daughter, born and brought up in England, of the minister of Clapham Junction's Welsh chapel, so a completely informal, ad hoc setting, and really it's out of a series of accidents like that that I've ended up in Wales. There is an argument that if there are people like me, knocking around in England—maybe not everybody would agree it's a particularly good idea that you have more people like me—moving to Wales, but I think there's something there to look at.

So, we're going to take a realistic view of this. We understand that this is outside the territory of Wales. We understand therefore that it is not our aim to be committing or suggesting that we commit, or making recommendations that we commit large amounts of public expenditure to this field—I don't think that's appropriate—but there could be quite small changes we could make that could be significant. For example, if we do think that there's a problem with literacy amongst speakers of Welsh as a heritage language in England, how much would it really cost to be having a couple of classes online looking at that? And were that to be successful, would that be useful in the context of heritage languages in Wales itself? I think that's quite interesting in the context of multicultural Wales and, actually, in England too. That's the sort of thing we could look at.

I'd also like to look, perhaps, at what you might call some of the unintended accidents of devolution, and they are unintended and they are accidents. There are things like situations where you have something like the Welsh Music Prize, for example, which is an excellent competition, but if you're from my background—I was born and brought up in England, and I speak Welsh—if I were to move back to London and I were to rather surprisingly form a Welsh language band and to sing, then under current rules, because I wasn't from Wales or born in Wales, I would be unable to compete in the Welsh Music Prize. Now, that is funded by the Welsh Government, in part at least. That's not a conspiracy on the part of the Welsh Music Prize, I want to emphasise that; it's what I would call an oversight.

But these oversights may be things that we can look at. I hope it would be useful for people from my background and for the Welsh language in general in Wales, and also I hope that it could help in terms of other minority languages in Wales, of which Welsh is not the only one. I think it's important to say that. And there may be lessons we can bring across that help some of those smaller language communities in Wales.

Okay, thanks. It's a much longer conversation that could be had in this area, but I appreciate what I thought were helpful comments.

Diolch. Yes, absolutely fascinating. Thank you so much.

I can't see that any other Members—. Yes, Heledd wants to come in. Okay, a final, final question in the last two minutes from Heledd.

You mentioned at the beginning in terms of the emotion relating to language. In terms of the understanding of that emotion and the connection with the language, you talked as well about sport and how to measure that. Certainly, when the world cup was on, some of the school visits we had here from English-medium schools, a number of young people aged 16, 17 were quite angry that they didn't have the language. Are those the types of things that you're trying to address, but obviously in a very short time in terms of being able to bring forward recommendations? I'm just trying to understand that emotion aspect, because it's a very complex area.

Yes, it is, isn't it, and the emotion can relate to the kind of example that you've just given, or it can also be negative feelings towards the language because one connects that language with negative experiences that one might have had during childhood or during their teenage years, and so on, and then how does one actually neutralise those negative feelings, rather than those negative feelings being carried by an individual throughout their lives. There are many different levels to the issue of emotion.

There is that level as to what language you feel is the intimate language in one relationship or another, which language do you feel is right in another relationship, and so on, and there are all sorts of things that can be looked at there, I think. It's not going to be fully and comprehensively covered, but I do think that there's a principle that this isn't an issue for individuals in isolation, this is a journey—. Yes, it's a language journey for individuals during the course of their lives, but it's also a language journey for us as a group of people too, and we have to think of that in the way that we think of these issues, such as, are we behaving properly, for example—what I mentioned earlier—between the sexes. Are we behaving properly with people from different backgrounds to ourselves, be that social class, be that ethnic background or be that an element around disability or sexuality, and so on? That is, how do we behave and conduct ourselves as a society, and what are those journeys that we need to take during our lifetimes? How does the whole of society change over time?

That's so interesting. There's so much more that a number of us would want to talk about, but time is against us, unfortunately. Thank you so much. I think that I'm speaking on behalf of everybody on the committee: you have enriched our understanding of the kind of issues that we will want to look at, and it would be an honour to be able to carry on with this conversation as you continue your incredibly important, incredibly interesting work. The word ‘interesting’ isn't enough. However you'd say ‘fascinating’ in Welsh. What is the Welsh word for 'fascinating'?

'Fascinating'. 'Fascinating' is the translation. [Laughter.]

Ysbrydoledig—inspired.

'Ysbrydoledig'. That's nice. Thank you, Heledd.

There will be a transcript sent to you for you to ensure that it's a fair reflection of what's been said, but perhaps there will be other issues that we'll want to be in contact with you about as we progress with this. I know that we will want to be in contact with you.

The committee is very welcome to contact us at any stage, and we would be happy to contribute to the committee's work in any way you feel is relevant.

Excellent, thank you so much. That has been extremely fascinating. Thank you very much.

Members will now move on to papers to note. Thank you very much to you for the evidence session this morning. It's been incredibly interesting. Thank you very much.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.