Climate Change, Environment, and Infrastructure Committee

Welcome back to this committee meeting. We're moving on to our second evidence session of the day on the Bus Services (Wales) Bill, and joining us we have the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales, Ken Skates, and his officials, of course: Alex Walters, who's deputy director of public and integrated transport at the Welsh Government; James Burgess, who is head of bus and community transport; and Catrin Dellar, head of bus reform at Welsh Government. A very warm welcome to the four of you.

We have an hour and a half, so we'll go straight to questions, and I'll start, if I may, because you told us, Cabinet Secretary, in May that you were very confident that the Bill's processes were understood. But one of the key issues emerging in the evidence that we have received since then is a concern among some key stakeholders about a lack of detail about what will happen as a result of the passage of this Bill, and that there's a lack of understanding in terms of the provisions, and a feeling too that engagement to date has been at a very high level. So, I would like to hear your response to that, whether you recognise that characterisation, and, if so, then how you will tackle it.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Chair. It's good to be with you again, and thanks so much to committee members for everything that you've been doing to kick the tyres on this Bill. I think it's fair to say that most people understand what we're seeking to achieve with the Bill, and I don't think that there were any major surprises at all for stakeholders when we published it, but I fully recognise that many stakeholders are keen to see some of the more granular details about specific aspects of the plans for bus reform. But I think we've gone about this in the right way. I note that when the Urban Transport Group gave evidence to the committee they warned against putting too much detail into the Bill, as it can have unintended consequences. But more of the detail is emerging and, in the coming weeks, through the work that we're doing in south-west Wales, which of course is going to be the first region where we'll see franchising take place, there's consultation on the network. That is imminent, that work, and so details around packages and plans for the fleet and depots and engagement plans are emerging. This is being developed by Transport for Wales and with regional stakeholders. And, as I say, that consultation process, I think, will address many of the concerns that have been raised about the need for more granular detail.

And I suppose that's the balance that needs to be struck between a framework type of Bill, where maybe much of that detail follows—. Can I just ask as well—? The big takeaway, and I think we mentioned this to you previously, from our visit to greater Manchester was the scale of the challenge that's being undertaken here, but also I think, learning lessons, maybe, from the changes that have been introduced in a rail context, managing expectations is important, because, obviously, politicians, I suppose, we're all guilty, we want to impress on people how seismic a change and how positive a change potentially this could be, but then of course people have to appreciate that it's a long game, very often, and it can be quite painful to get to where you want to get to. So, how are you managing those expectations and maybe learning the lessons from previous mistakes with TfW and rail particularly?

Yes, I think you've put it perfectly: there is a need to manage public expectations. I see from the agenda for today's committee that you have Vernon Everitt with you this afternoon, I believe, and he may be able to provide some insight into how franchising was rolled out in greater Manchester and how they managed public expectations, I think in a very appropriate way. So, we've been learning very much from greater Manchester. And as you say, actually, Chair, we've learned from the major process that we went through with the rail franchise. So, there is a risk. I do accept this, that people think that as soon as we pass the legislation that bus services are going to improve immediately, we're going to see far more routes and so forth from day one and improved reliability.

It will take time to realise the ambition that we've set out, but there are some tangible short-term benefits from franchising that will be noticed by the travelling public. They won't have to, for example, navigate multiple different operators and timetables and systems. They'll be able to benefit from a network that is co-ordinated. There'll be a single app to plan journeys and we're going to be able to integrate from very early on timetables with rail service timetables as well. So, I do accept that the transition from the current arrangements to franchising is hugely complicated. It's a huge task. But that's one of the reasons why we are rolling it out on a region-by-region basis. We want to get this right; we want to take the time to ensure that franchising is done in the correct way, and that means that communication with the public is going to be vitally important.

I think that you're absolutely right to say that with rail there were—and I take responsibility for this—some raised expectations that people would see improved services from day one. It has taken time, but I think that we can point to Transport for Wales rail services, compared to the service that people experienced before 2018, as a step change, and we intend to do something very similar with bus services as well, and actually create for the first time one single network. But just going back to the point that you raised about managing expectations, I think that the consultation that's going to take place in south-west Wales will demonstrate that we're going to take this very seriously— we're not going to raise expectations. We will set out time frames, but there will be, as I say, some near-term, short-term benefits from franchising that people will see.

There we are. Okay, diolch yn fawr iawn. Carolyn.

I'm going to ask some questions regarding local authorities now. There's a widespread view that a stronger partnership with local authorities and local government is actually needed throughout the implementation of this Bill. You told us that local authorities will have a far greater role, and we've just heard that in evidence as well previously, but given that, why do you not make this explicit in the Bill, particularly in relation to the plan, but also more generally?

Thank you, Carolyn, and forgive me, I haven't had an opportunity to watch the session that took place earlier this morning with Transport for Wales, so apologies if I repeat anything that they've already outlined. But the Bill does state that Welsh Ministers must seek the views of councils in preparing the plan, and consult with them prior to its publication. And that's also true when it comes to revising the plan, and I do stand by my comments in May. I want to work as closely as possible with local authorities, councils and councillors and council officials, very close to the ground. They know their communities best, and their knowledge of local bus networks is vitally important, and that's why we're working so closely with them on the network planning to ensure that they can contribute to an integrated system.

And again, I point to south-west Wales and the preparations that are taking place there. There's going to be a launch of public engagement activity on the draft proposed base network, and that's been co-created with the councils—with the four local authorities. So, to reach this point, Transport for Wales have held various all-member briefings, they've been to cabinet meetings in the local authorities, and all of the local authorities have engaged with the CJCs, and we won't seek to do anything in isolation. And what we're doing in south-west Wales is going to be the model that we adopt for the other regions of Wales, and we'll be able to learn from south-west Wales as well, I think it's fair to say—that's one of the advantages of staging this on a region-by-region basis.

I don't know whether Alex has any more to say about—. Alex may have seen the session with TfW and might be able to reflect on what they gave in evidence.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Yes, I did manage to watch the session, and I think Transport for Wales were very clear in their session about the extent to which they will be working in partnership with local authorities as well as operators in developing the network. And I think all of the publications, such as the road map, have been very clear that the network needs to be co-developed with local authorities, CJCs and other partners to ensure that strategic join-up across Wales.

I thought it might be also worth just mentioning—I think we may have mentioned this in committee previously, so, again, apologies if I'm repeating myself—that we are considering making further efforts to clearly define roles and how Welsh Ministers intend to work with local authorities, through a memorandum of understanding to which the WLGA has signalled its support, and we'll continue ongoing engagement with local authorities to make sure that that support is maintained.

Thank you. Moving on to the next question: learner travel is a key stakeholder concern. So, in Wales, in particular, it is very often—learner travel—actually subsidised public bus transport, isn't it, and our small-to-medium bus companies rely on the school transport contracts, and we'll be needing them also to deliver the franchises. So, as they're so tied up together, there's a real fear that the importance of public bus services for learner travel will not be reflected in the franchises going forward. So, there's a perception that assurances need to be given that it will still be reflected going forward. Your official told us:

'when we implement the contracts, we’re looking to include an ability to bring learner travel into those.'

So, why are we not having explicit references to learner travel in the Bill as well, just to reflect that, for example, ensuring consideration in contracting?

Okay, so there's a lot that I could talk about on this topic. I'll be as brief as I can. First of all, learner travel is out of scope of the Bill, and learner travel will remain a responsibility for local authorities, whereas franchising will be a responsibility for Welsh Ministers. That said, the Bill does provide part of the solution to the challenge that we face on learner travel, and the challenge is considerable. We held recently a learner travel summit, and there were attendees from across local government, bus operators, further education, the children's commissioner was there, and young people. So, we were able to discuss various solutions and various tools that are required to address the challenge that we face with learner travel, but legislation is part of that package of solutions and the public network isn't the right solution for learner travel everywhere, or for every child or young person, particularly when we talk about ALN. So, it's important that local authorities retain responsibility for the entirety of this hugely complicated area, rather than us breaking it up, but equally that we work very closely with them to take full advantage of the opportunities that the Bill will undoubtedly provide.

So, for example, when Transport for Wales designs the network plan, they'll be able to consider whether there are any opportunities whatsoever to work alongside learner travel provision. This could be particularly beneficial given that, as you say, Carolyn, a lot of the SMEs in Wales provide learner travel as well as passenger transport as well. So, we're fortunate as well, actually, that in our department the person that is taking the lead on learner travel is also someone who's been at the core of the development of this Bill. James, is there anything you'd like to add?

Can we unmute? There we are, yes.

Sorry, I was just struggling to unmute myself. Yes, thank you, Cabinet Secretary. So, yes, there are a couple of things I'd like to add. I think the first one was—you asked about contracts, and I think that there is an opportunity in contracts. If we want to make it as easy as possible for operators, and particularly those SME operators—. I know that TfW this morning were talking an awful lot to you about SME operators and the overlaps with school transport provision that they also provide. There might be an opportunity within some of those contracts that we're currently considering to deliver school transport provision at the beginning and the end of the school day, but also have the opportunity to also operate public bus services in between these times.

I think the other thing I wanted to say was just to re-emphasise what the Cabinet Secretary said about the—. The Cabinet Secretary's already talked about the complexities of this Bill and the complexities of the challenges that we're taking forward in seeking a franchise solution, but in the summit that we had some weeks ago, we were really looking at the complexities of learner travel, and if we were to broaden the scope of this Bill and to bring learner travel in, it really would make it extremely, extremely complex to deliver. So, we think it's right and appropriate that that remains with local authorities as a statutory duty.

I am more reassured now with understanding how closely you are working with local authorities in partnership, so I find that helpful.

So, what you're saying in effect is it's not within the scope of the Bill, but on a practical level you will be expecting these things to come together?

Absolutely, yes.

Okay. So, operators have highlighted congestion as a huge issue, one of the biggest issues they face, and they would have liked to see something in the Bill. So, for example, I've had examples recently where local authorities have put in bus stops, bus shelters, bus lanes, without consulting with operators, and they're in the wrong place, or when they're delivering active travel measures, we've got bus lanes, active travel measures, and there are lots of issues. So, they would like there to be something strong there that local authorities need to consult with operators and drivers before they put any of this infrastructure in place. So, that's just one example.

I think you've touched on something that's enormously important if we are to create a successful network, and that is the need to make sure that services are safe. I'm borrowing this from Vernon Everitt again now: his mantra is to create a safe, reliable and frequent service. Now, congestion, therefore, is part of the wider policy context. We do need to invest in measures that ensure greater reliability of services against timetables, but we also need to invest in measures that improve safety as well, not just on the buses, but also in streets. So, we need to invest more on things like dropped kerbs, tactile paving, fixed kerbs, fixed pavements, putting benches along routes, making sure that bus stops are attractive and safe places to be, where information is provided. So, this is actually part of a wider policy context, and beyond the scope of the Bill, but it is vitally important that we recognise that dealing with congestion is going to be crucial in delivering a successful network, and in driving up passenger patronage as well.

So, I think what we'll see is the Bill will help to link in the planning and delivery of bus services with measures that will be taken to improve bus priority services, and, through Llwybr Newydd, we'll be able to go on investing in infrastructure improvements such as priority lanes, which we're delivering through bus corridors in Cardiff, and road space reallocation in Ynys Môn. We'll go on being able to do that.

With the devolution of local transport grants to the regions from next year, the money will be able to be spent against the region's regional transport plans. I know that transport plans at the moment—some of them are out for consultation, and consultation on some has closed—it is vitally important that we give local authorities as much say as possible over where to invest in their communities, because, again, it's that local knowledge, knowledge on the ground of where investment needs to be channelled that will be so valuable in ensuring that we do provide safe, frequent and reliable services.

Now, in terms of engagement with operators, you're absolutely right, Carolyn, it's vitally important that local authorities and Transport for Wales go on engaging with operators to ensure that we're placing seating in the right locations, to ensure that we're maintaining and fixing pedestrian and wheeling infrastructure and cycling infrastructure at the right points, and to ensure that we're placing bus stops in the right locations. That collaborative approach is going to be vital in delivering that safe, frequent and reliable network.

So, do you not think that addressing infrastructure in the Bill would strengthen that co-operation between delivery of operations and infrastructure, then, of buses?

Can I just come back with another example why I feel this needs to be stronger? Okay, so two routes have been stopped. One is at risk of being stopped, going to a major town, right? And I know the buses are full because of congestion, where parked cars are parking on double yellow lines. Now unless you have an enforcement officer there 24/7, it keeps happening. Operators, and even local authorities, have asked for stronger legislation or something there to rebalance this, so that buses have that priority for people, basically, those vulnerable people that rely on that bus to get to the—. I am really concerned that they will stop going to that major town because of people parking their cars.

Absolutely. I think that that's way out of scope for this Bill, that would require legislation in another area. But you are absolutely right, Carolyn, that bus priority measures are only going to be successful if they're used properly and if enforcement is taking place on a regular basis. But that is out of scope of this Bill. But it is something that local authorities and Welsh Government, Transport for Wales and the operators all recognise needs to be dealt with. It's actually a form, a very serious form, of anti-social behaviour to be parking inappropriately, and especially if you're blocking public transport. So, we do need to get to grips with it. In terms of bus priority measures, that, as I said, is outside the scope of the Bill. I'll bring in Catrin just to explain a little bit more, if I may.

But I think what we probably need to reflect on and acknowledge is that we have an interest in driving up the use of bus services as much as we possibly can, given that we're going to be carrying the revenue risk. Now, the only way to drive up patronage is to make sure that you offer safe, reliable and frequent services. The only way that you're going to be able to deliver frequent services and reliable services is if you make sure that the infrastructure is in place to enable that to happen. So, Welsh Government and local authorities will have a vested interest in ensuring that buses can travel without facing serious congestion. But I'll bring in Catrin, if I may, on why this is out of scope of the Bill.

Diolch yn fawr. Public transport, in its nature, is woven into all sorts of areas of our lives, and I think, in the same way as learner travel is outside of scope, even though it's key—. Congestion and infrastructure are things that are currently woven into public transport, obviously, but that's so broad that it would be creating a bit of a monster Bill to include everything within it. And, of course, we are tasked here with, and all our interests are in, providing for a local bus service network that is good for Wales. Whilst we recognise that this has a significant impact on and is significantly impacted by other matters, we're about delivering franchising, which will allow us to better co-ordinate and better deliver on all these other matters as well. So, it's very similar to learner travel in that respect.

I'd just say, on the engagement with operators, again, this new model will make it much easier for us to work with operators and local authorities to deliver in all these other areas. Even though they may not be directly included in the Bill, the list of objectives in section 4 means that we will need to deliver against all these things, because they are part of a whole picture for public transport.

Chair, if I may, I'd just like to touch on something, another point, that Carolyn raised, which was bus stops and benches being put in the wrong locations and a lack of engagement with bus operators. We're going to be producing national bus stop standards. It doesn't sound very glamorous, but it is going to be, I think, pretty important in ensuring that there's a high and consistent standard of bus stops across Wales. That's going to be focused on six core areas, and one of those is accessibility and location, making sure that bus stops are safe, inclusive and well located. And then the other core areas concern information, safety and security, environment and maintenance, branding, and then customer facilities as well.

Okay. Julie, then, and then we'll come on to Janet.

Yes, could I just ask you, Cabinet Secretary—? You said that you were consulting about bus stops; I assume that you are involving the disability organisations in this consultation, because I know we have had a meeting about that, because some of the bus stops we've had in Cardiff have turned out to be totally unsuitable, particularly for people with visual impairment.

Yes. This is why I think those standards are going to be so important, Julie. They will be standards that demand the highest quality and most appropriate bus stops. And not just bus stops—again, it's about seating, it's about information provision, it's about maintenance. And we're working very closely—I say 'we', actually, it's Transport for Wales is working very closely—in creating these standards with the access and inclusion panel that I've spoken about in previous committee sessions. That panel has been invaluable in informing how we can ensure that public transport is accessible to all. So, the standards are going to be co-created with the access and inclusion panel, and, indeed, Transport for Wales will be reaching out to many other groups and passengers, as well as potential passengers. We shouldn't lose sight of the fact that there are people who could, would, may use buses if they were frequent, safe and reliable. And that includes the use of bus stops. So, we're encouraging Transport for Wales to reach out to as many individuals and groups and organisations as possible to inform these standards.

Thank you.

Okay. I think we've moved quite a bit into the next area of questioning, actually. Janet, is there anything you want to add?

Yes. For me, passenger issues—. Earlier, we were talking about things like information for them, the points that Julie's raised about things. Because I see weaknesses in the train system, sometimes—announcements not made when you're approaching a station and things, lack of information if there's disruption and things. For me, the passenger is key here, and how you can reassure us that some of the problems we still envisage on the trains will not be passed over to the buses in that way.

Yes, absolutely. So, again, we've learned and we're determined to make sure that information is provided at bus stops and on apps on a live basis. We're also determined to ensure that, where appropriate, we have up-to-date paper timetables available at bus stops as well.

Yes, please.

And I think, actually, Janet, you're absolutely right, comms are the key and the passenger is the king or the queen. We have to see services through the eyes and the lived experience of passengers. And I think the consultation that you'll see taking place in south-west Wales demonstrates that the passenger voice is going to be at the heart of everything that is planned in that network. And that's not just going to be a one-off exercise, that is going to be a continuing exercise in ensuring that the passenger voice is heard and that we act upon it on a continuous basis. That includes when we revise plans, for example; it includes when we have to consider the locations of bus stops and other areas of infrastructure expenditure. So, the passenger voice is going to be at the heart of everything that we do.

And—. Oh, I've lost my train of thought. Will you make sure that the results of the south Wales study—? Will we be privy to that?

Yes. I think we're going to very transparent with everything. So, our learning experience from south-west Wales, we will—. Certainly, whatever documents we produce we'll provide you with access to them. It is the first region to go forward with franchising. It is an enormous task. There will be missteps along the way, potentially, but we have the right people on the bus, we've got the determination, we've got the passion and we've got the plan to deliver it.

Brilliant.

But we'll make sure that we share with you any information and any lessons that we learn from that first region to have franchising rolled out. I should also say, just in terms of the passenger voice, again, just referencing back to what I was saying about the vested interest that we have in driving up patronage, given that we hold the revenue risk, we need to maximise the amount of money that's contained within the farebox, and that can only be achieved if we drive up patronage. We're only going to drive up patronage if we listen to people and serve their needs. So, that's why the passenger voice is just so crucial to our interests as well.

Thank you.

Diolch yn fawr. Thank you. Julie.

Thanks. I want to ask about community transport. Community transport, you know, is able to continue to operate outside the new bus regime, but we have had concerns expressed that these services will lose local government funding and focus once the councils lose the statutory duty responsibility for local bus services. So, how are we going to ensure that they do receive adequate support and funding? Because obviously they're a vital part of the whole provision.

Oh, absolutely. I've got first-hand experience of community transport, and I know the Chair of the committee will be aware of the good work of the South Denbighshire Community Partnership and the community transport that we see in the Dee valley. Community transport makes a huge contribution, and in many, many parts people would be left terribly isolated if we didn't have community transport in operation. So, we're determined to protect community transport across Wales. Officials, I can assure you, have worked to ensure that there are no unintended consequences arising from the Bill that might have a detrimental impact on community transport services, and I think the sector has given broad support for bus reform. But I do understand their concern that, as the system through which bus services are delivered is changed, they want assurances that a focus will remain on community transport and that funding is maintained. And I would like to assure the sector that this Government recognises the importance of their work. And I've asked my officials to work in partnership with the CTA and, indeed, councils across Wales to look at the best means of achieving their sustainability, and ensure that actually they don't just survive, they actually thrive, and go on serving their communities really well. But I don't know whether Alex or James—maybe James—might like to add something to this.

I think we don't need to unmute ourselves, it's done automatically.

Sorry, I was trying to unmute myself and ended up muting myself. Apologies. All I can do is reinforce exactly what the Cabinet Secretary has said. We absolutely recognise the importance of the community transport sector. We understand—. Because currently they get a percentage of funding from the bus services support grant that we provide to local authorities to run community transport services within those local authority areas. That system will be changing as we roll out franchising—on a phased basis, that system will be changing. So, we understand why they want to know exactly what the new funding mechanism will look like, and we are going to invest time and energy into working closely with local authorities and, very importantly, the Community Transport Association and community transport operators to look at what the best system is going forward. But, as the Cabinet Secretary said, this Government's commitment to community transport is very strong.

It's good to have that commitment. I am going on now to ask about the objectives, which we have covered a bit already in our discussion, because it has been suggested to us that there should be additional objectives included in the Bill. As I say, we have covered some of them: addressing congestion, learner travel, passenger engagement, market diversity to support SMEs. So, have you anything to add about whether these could be considered as objectives within the Bill?

I don't think a single Bill could deal with all of the challenges that we face in terms of delivering a network that is frequent, safe and reliable. It will require various interventions beyond the scope of this Bill. We set out in 2022 the White Paper, 'One network, one timetable, one ticket', and our objectives meet the wording. The wording is very consistent with what we set out in that White Paper. I will be open to considering further objectives, as long as they're reflective of the Bill's aims and could be within scope and could be delivered.

I've already talked about congestion and infrastructure. In other areas, when it comes to market diversity, the Procurement Act 2023 is going to apply to this particular piece of legislation. That will require consideration of whether any barriers to participation for SMEs can be removed or reduced when procurement is carried out. So, the legislation is already in existence, I believe, in a satisfactory way, to address those concerns. I've already spoken about learner travel and how that is a challenge with many facets; infrastructure, likewise. Then, when it comes to reducing emissions, reducing emissions will be something that comes as a result of investment in buses themselves, in the move towards electric, hybrid and, potentially, hydrogen vehicles.

I hope that answers the question. I'm always conscious of taking too much on in a piece of legislation, which could inadvertently lead to it collapsing under its own weight. But I think what we have done with this Bill is made sure that it can be successfully delivered in terms of the practical applications of it, whilst at the same time adjoining it to all of the other challenges that have been outlined by the people who have given you evidence thus far.

Thank you. We don't want a monster Bill, as Catrin said, I know, but it's interesting that you say you are open. I think that's—

Yes, I think quality of service is one area that's been flagged, maybe. Improving passenger experience, maybe, is one area that isn't covered by some of the other stuff. But maybe that's something for us to consider in our report, maybe. So, thank you for that.

Yes. Thank you.

I'd very much welcome that. Thank you, Chair, yes.

Thank you. Okay, Carolyn.

These are questions now regarding the Welsh bus network plan. I've had concerns about managing expectations, and, when we went to Manchester, they said that also. We've just heard previously, in the previous evidence session, when consulting with local authorities, they're saying we should take forward just the existing network first, to manage expectations et cetera, before growing it. So, we've heard that the network will be based on regional transport plans. So, stakeholders, that's what they understand, and, when we've listened to them, they've been highly critical of the approach of the community engagement in regional transport plans. We've also heard from a local authority who said they put a lot of resources into the engagement process, but it's been really hard to get people to engage with them. I know from experience that when a bus service is actually looking at being removed, or it's been cancelled, that's when you get people engaged. It's just really regarding that, and the expectation of it. How do we address this, given that the Welsh bus network plan will draw on RTPs—that's the plan, isn't it? So, will this affect the quality of the plan? I'm just trying to join it all up.

Yes, you raise some really, really important and valuable points here. First of all, the RTPs have been in development in parallel with the work that we're doing on franchising. So, they are going to be drawn upon, but they will not be the only reference points—far from it. We'll be able to include other strategic documents, like the Wales transport plan, in our considerations, as well as passenger and public engagement. That's going to be crucial, and also the significant input that local authorities themselves are going to be making. So, RTPs are part of the package of papers and engagement that we'll be utilising to develop the network.

But you're absolutely right again about managing expectations. That's why we're talking about the base network, i.e. the existing one. The rail Minister, Peter Hendy, recently said—I think you were there to hear him actually, Carolyn—that the reason that we hanker after, the public tend to hanker after, rail services over bus services is because they consider rail services to be more permanent and guaranteed for the longer term, whereas bus services come and go. This is why, I think, the base network is going to be so, so valuable, because the base network is going to be intended to be there for the long term, and that's going to be crucial in driving up patronage.

So, the regional transport plans, yes, they will be part of the package of documents that we'll be considering, but, at the end of the day, we're going to be developing the network on the basis of what the public wants. And that engagement will not stop with the engagement that's taken place on the RTP, as we're showing in south-west Wales, where the engagement, the consultation process, is going to be beginning soon.

Okay. Stakeholders have identified a need to strengthen consultation, but also with those that don't actually use public bus transport at the moment, as well as the existing users, and they've asked are you open to amendments on the consultation arrangements for it.

Yes. Sections 6 and 8 provide for, I think, pretty strong duties requiring consultation with anyone that the Welsh Ministers believe to be appropriate in providing services. Now, I think it is vital, again, to recognise that Welsh Ministers are going to have a vested interest in driving up the farebox, and we're only going to do that by attracting new people, new customers, new passengers to the network. We're only going to do that if we design a network that meets their needs. And so I think the consultation that will take place with the public has to be extensive, it has to be broad and deep, in order to develop and deliver a network that will see a significant increase in the number of passengers using it. And I think in Manchester, right—I can't remember the exact figure, but—franchising has already led to an uplift in the number of people that are using those services, and I think that indicates what can be achieved through franchising.

Can I just sneak in a question about branding? I asked in the previous session as well about branding. So, I think, to drive this—. People have confidence, I think, at the moment—more confidence—in rail than buses at the moment because of information, reliability, et cetera. And I think branding is going to be really important with this. We've got the Bee Network; we're looking at the T Network for integrated transport. So, I just want to know, going forward, how are you going to—? And marketing is going to be really important as well for that confidence.

It is. It is. Yes, absolutely, branding, marketing and communications are vitally important in developing confidence amongst users, passengers. And again, I don't know what TfW told you earlier about branding, but having consistency is going to be important. I recall—and maybe this is with a bit of nostalgia in mind, so that's a caveat—I do recall the days of Crosville buses, where you had that consistent branding on a regional basis. And I think that gave assurance that, no matter what service you're getting on, it's provided by the same operator with the same standards across all of the network that they operate. And that's the sort of approach that I think we wish to take with the idea of the T Network, and it's certainly something that I think we're seeing with the Bee Network in greater Manchester. I've been over to greater Manchester to take a close look at the Bee Network and to visit their depots, so I do appreciate the huge amount of work that's been undertaken in developing a network that has consistency at core.

Yes, I think that's an important message. Julie.

It's been suggested that the requirements to revise the plan are potentially onerous—for example, roadworks could often take longer than 14 days. So, how do you respond to that?

Well, we've got to be proportionate, and I do understand concerns around this. I think that 14 days is an adequate period of time to cover most emergency circumstances. Those emergency circumstances that require interventions lasting more than 14 days are usually pretty significant and hefty. And in north Wales, we could point to one example, which is in my constituency, so I'm well aware of it, but Newbridge, where there was a major landslide and it took out a road that is crucially important, not just as, if you like, a relief road, an alternative route to the A483, but is also a major route for local public transport. So, that has been closed for a very, very significant amount of time. And that is typical of those major emergency circumstances that require more than 14 days of effort to overcome. So, I do think that 14 days is adequate for most emergency circumstances, and those circumstances that fall beyond 14 days are more likely to require longer term interventions.

But, obviously, we're going to make sure that the plan is kept up to date, and we're also going to avoid making revisions so onerous that the plan fails to be dynamic. It's got to be dynamic enough to meet people's needs. So, I think we have been pretty proportionate—or very proportionate—in how we've outlined these measures. Catrin, is there anything more that you'd like to add to this?

Diolch, Cabinet Secretary. Yes, just to add to what you're saying about being proportionate, we have had it in mind that we don't want to make the process so onerous, and this goes for the whole of the Bill, the whole of the legislation, really—not to make it too onerous that we're not dynamic, but, at the same time, holding people to account and being transparent. So, the plan doesn't include granular details such as times and frequencies of services, and consultation is only required when changes are more than minor and it will be practicable to do so.

These are all things that we've put in place because we recognise there are so many different circumstances under which we might find ourselves needing to make revisions. And so we've tried to sort of lock it down as much as we can without specifying too many details, so that we just make it impossible to make changes. I'm not sure that that adds much to what you were saying, Cabinet Secretary, but I think it is key—making it proportionate is key to what we're trying to do here.

So, in terms of arriving at the figure of 14 days, was there data you looked at to arrive at that figure, or common sense?

Well, yes, common sense, hopefully. But, no, most of it is around what's in existing transport legislation, and so we've gone with consistency there, because it's almost an expectation. But, yes. And I think it's reasonable; people would reasonably think that an emergency or a swift change would be within 14 days. Anything after that, I think people would expect a bit more information on it, maybe. But what I'd just like to point out as well is that this is about the network plan, but actually it's the information we're providing the public through section 27, it's that information, that people actually want, around timetabling. That will be live information, and therefore that will reflect any figure above and lower than 14 days. So, that's important to remember—that this provision is around the network plan, which is a higher level plan than the information that people will actually be getting day to day.

And so do you think there's any need for greater clarity on the interpretation of ‘minor’?

I don't think there is, because these things aren't black and white. I think perhaps we do need to do work to ensure that people understand what is meant by ‘minor’. But these things, as I say, are not absolute, they're not black and white. And there may be some circumstances where a revision to the plan will be very, very limited in its impact on passengers and providers of bus services. For example, if a route is changed without actually affecting the stopping points, without affecting the journey time, then that would be considered a minor revision. And equally, if there are emergency works that have to be carried out that won't last more than 14 days, then it wouldn't really be practicable to consult on that change, because the change might not actually last as long as the consultation, and, in some circumstances, there may be no choice, no alternative, as to act. So, as I say, I think probably we do need to ensure that there is a greater understanding of what is meant by 'minor', and I do think that that's going to come over the coming months.

And also 'reasonably practicable'. That's—

Yes, indeed. Yes.

Okay, thank you. Right, I think we've given that a good airing. Shall we move on to Joyce? Thank you.

Good morning. I'm going on to local bus service contracts now, and stakeholders have suggested that the Bill, as it stands, is inflexible. They were identifying a need for a plan B in the event of significant loss of service because of those contracts, and they accept that a range of contracts are possible, noting permitting and direct-award provisions. Do you recognise their claims that this is inflexible, and also that you could have major loss of service?

Well, I do appreciate the views that have been expressed by some in the sector in relation to a plan B, including a tiered system of franchising, enhanced partnerships and so forth, but I just don't think that they offer a means of delivering on the ambition that we've set out for an all-Wales network of franchise services. And yes, we've outlined how franchising is a preferred method of securing services, but, if you want to talk about a plan B and a plan C, we felt it prudent to ensure that there was flexibility in place to respond to opportunities and challenges and crises to allow us to avoid any major loss of service. So, we do believe the scope of provision—including permitting, including direct provision—ensures appropriate alternative methods to guarantee certainty and continuity of services should emergencies arrive, or should there be market failure. But I don't think that there's a need for a plan B as has been outlined by some in the industry. I do appreciate the views and the concerns that have been expressed, but, as I say, I'm quite confident that we've got flexibility built into the legislation to ensure that we can address any market failure or crises.

The other area of doubt that exists with experienced bus stakeholders is the assertion that franchising can make savings, or deliver more for the same cost. Has that given you any thought for pause?

An excellent question, and I've not only read the briefings on this, but I've also done a lot of research myself, thanks to Google. There is a really interesting report from the Centre for Cities where they talk about the benefits, which are many in number, and they talk about the cost benefits of franchising. We've looked at Manchester, obviously. And I do recognise that it might not be the case that savings will be made immediately under the new model. Equally, I believe that there are other considerations that make it a worthwhile investment.

We're spending over the course of this Senedd term around £600 million. When you set aside the cost of learner travel, we're spending around £600 million to support the bus network. Now, that is a huge amount of money, but we have very little control over how it's used. This Bill is going to give us far more control over how it's used. And it'll also give us the tools to secure a whole-network approach to services to be able to integrate with rail services. Instead of having a firefighting approach to delivering public transport—which is essentially what we've got at the moment, where urban areas disproportionately benefit from access to services—we will have a proactive ability to be able to plan the whole network and to ensure that there is that integration in place.

So, I do accept and acknowledge that what we're proposing to do through the Bill is much larger in scale than what many people believe we should be pursuing. But I think it is worth looking at the TrawsCymru network in terms of potential cost savings. You're only going to make cost savings if you drive up patronage. Again, it's about the value of the farebox against the cost of the network itself; I talk about net cost.

If we look at TrawsCymru, where we do have control of the network, we've seen, in the space of, I think it's the last 12 months, huge uplifts in patronage. I think some of the services have seen an increase of more than 43 per cent. They've also reported a notable decrease in the proportion of customer complaints. So, where we've got control over how the money is used, we've seen a significant increase in patronage, an improvement in customer services, which is borne out from, or demonstrated by, the decrease in customer complaints. And, again, we're able to better integrate those services with rail services. So, I do think that TrawsCymru is a very, very appropriate model to be able to ascertain how the network, as we plan it under this legislation, will deliver for the people of Wales.

Thank you. Finally from me, I want to talk about transparency on the network performance, and some honesty, really, with the public. The mayor of Manchester seems to stand out in this space, because he held weekly talks on the radio—I'm not suggesting we copy that, but this is a good example. He talked about the warts-and-all approach. So, do you think that Transport for Wales has been slow to publish route-level performance data for rail?

I've been pressing for as much information to be made available to the public in as transparent a way as possible when it comes to rail services. There's a plethora of data that you can provide to the public. I think what's most important to the travelling public is the reliability of the service that they use—rather than the entire network, it's that particular route service that they use that is most important to them. So, having that information at stations and on trains is hugely important. And the same applies to buses, I believe.

So, we do have to have a very transparent system in place, where we are able to provide the public with data that shows performance across the network—specifically, though, to the services that people use. And, actually, it can be incredibly helpful to have that transparency in order to address challenges that we might face in improving punctuality. For example, if a service is not operating reliably and frequently, as it should, it may be down to the fact that bus priority lanes are needed, or it may be down to the fact that the—[Inaudible.]

Oh.

Okay, there seems to be a glitch on the Cabinet Secretary's line, I think. The picture is frozen. We just hope that he—.

And relied—

Sorry, Cabinet Secretary, we lost you for a moment there. You'll have to just rewind about 30 seconds, I'm afraid. Oh, he's frozen again. Okay. We might need to just adjourn briefly, then. So, we'll just adjourn the meeting for a moment, and, hopefully, we'll be able to re-establish that connection with the Cabinet Secretary.

Apologies, Chair. I lost connection then, I think.

You did indeed. We—. Have we adjourned, or are we okay to carry on?

We're still live.

We're still live. There we are. Okay. Yes, you'll have to rewind a little bit. We lost you for about 30 seconds.

I apologise. So, what I was talking about was the value of transparency in winning public support when measures need to be taken to address a lack of reliability or punctuality. For example, if you can provide the data and the information to the public that demonstrates interventions are required, such as bus priority lanes, then people are far more likely to support that sort of intervention. Whereas, if you just go forward without actually explaining to the public why a bus priority lane is required, you're less likely to get the support and the buy-in from the public. So, actually being transparent with data is vitally important. I'm keen to see data shared regarding route reliability and punctuality, because it's the individual routes that people use that matter most to them, rather than the reliability measures and data applying to the entire network.

One of the areas of lack of data we heard earlier was the lack of identifying bus stops. I think it was 48 per cent that weren't marked and therefore, as a consequence, don't have any infrastructure around them to let anybody know (a) that they exist, if you don't already know, and (b) what time to expect any service, or anything, actually, at all. I think it was quite staggering, really, that we found that out. There are lots of reasons for it, of course. So, will that be addressed in this Bill?

So, that's one of the objectives of the bus stop standards that I mentioned earlier. We have in excess of 20,000 bus stops across Wales. Local authorities are responsible for them. They vary, as you can imagine, in terms of style, in terms of age, in terms of what they provide. Some are clearly unsafe, some are clearly out of date. Having national bus stop standards in place, with identified individuals within local authorities that can work with Transport for Wales on those high-quality standard bus stops, is going to be vitally important. So too will investment in them. That's one of the reasons, for example, in this financial year, I've invited local authorities, or, in fact, put a condition on the local transport grants, the active travel funding, that they use a majority of the core funding to ensure that we have fixing pavements, fixing kerbs, fixing bus stops as a priority measure. We have to get to grips with the number of bus stops that are simply inadequate, too old, poorly maintained, and we have to do it in a consistent way. So, those standards are going to be vitally important.

The provision of data, the provision of timetables, the provision of route punctuality is going to be important as well, both online through apps, and then within bus stops and at bus stops. Not only are traditional paper timetables going to be used where appropriate and necessary, but digital displays that capture live information are going to be vitally important as well.

There we are. Okay. Thank you for that. I'm just mindful that we have 30 minutes left and we probably need to change gear a little bit, otherwise there'll be lots of the Bill that we haven't managed to cover. Janet, if I can come to you.

Yes. Some stakeholders—. No, I'm on here. Sorry. Some stakeholders are concerned that permit conditions can be varied or permits revoked by notice on the date the notice is issued. How do you respond to the view that passengers and operators need an appropriate notice period?

Well, I totally understand that, and the administrative system for operating a permitting system is going to be developed by Transport for Wales. It will be subject to timely and collaborative engagement with key stakeholders, including the industry, but on occasions, it is going to be important, I think, that immediate action can take place. For example, if there's an issue with safety on the network, I think it's important that action can be taken immediately. Catrin, would you just like to outline a little more about this?

Diolch. Yes. I mean, the permit system is to be developed, and TfW did go into a bit of detail earlier about the work that they're doing to develop the administrative system for this. We've outlined carefully considered reasons why permits might be revoked or varied, and some of those would require immediate action, as the Cabinet Secretary says. We'd need to make clear information available to people about the circumstances under which that could be done, and also we've developed it so it's in keeping with other permitting regimes that people in public transport would be familiar with. So, there's quite a bit of work to do, I think, particularly for TfW, in working and in engaging with operators and others about how that's going to work. But I think the intention is to ensure that operators are provided with the appropriate notice of changes to permits. And again, we're back to the word 'proportionate' and making sure that we work with operators, but that they also understand that, with the safety or concern of passengers, we should be able to take immediate action. We should be able to take proportionate action.

So, in the absence of statutory guidance, you're confident, are you, that everyone's going to clearly understand the criteria, so that they don't end up wasting time and money?

Yes, I'm confident that'll be the case, Chair.

Okay. Can I just ask about direct provision, then, because, when you appeared before us in May, you told us that the direct provision under section 17 wasn't a back door to nationalisation? But do you accept that the test, currently, is extremely broad and it does genuinely leave open the prospect of nationalisation, whether that's the intention or not?

Well, Chair, if we wanted to nationalise, we would, but this is most definitely not a back door to nationalising the bus network. And I think that the Bill pretty clearly implies that franchised services have a higher status than—

But there's nothing in the Bill that would prevent nationalisation if, for any reason, you felt that was necessary.

When we talk about nationalisation, are you talking about it on an entire network basis?

Well, it could be on a single part of the network, or both. I mean, it could be both, couldn't it? There's nothing in the Bill that differentiates.

It would be impossibly difficult to do that, and as I say, if we wanted to nationalise, we'd be doing that rather than going down the route that we believe is most appropriate and will deliver better for people in Wales. But I think I was just going to say about the individual routes as well. I think it is important that Welsh Ministers are able to directly provide individual routes. Obviously, as I've said, there is the implication that franchised services have a higher status, but it is important that we have alternative means of providing services for the travelling public.

So, there's nothing in the Bill that would stop it, necessarily? Not that that's the policy intent, of course.

It's not the policy intent, and, as I say, if that were the policy intent, we'd be pursuing a very different piece of legislation for this.

I can imagine, yes, of course. Okay, diolch. Back to you, Janet.

Thank you. Some stakeholders are confused about the purpose and effect of section 18. Under what circumstances would you rely on section 19 community transport services and Part 3 of Schedule 1 services in meeting your duty to secure local bus services, given neither carry members of the public?

I think it's important that we—. It's unlikely that these types of services are going to be relied on, but we do need to ensure that, where they exist, we don't inadvertently restrict their ability to continue delivering their service and that we avoid duplication of services.

How are you going to do that?

Well, I'll bring in Catrin, if I may.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. It is a bit of a technical area, this. So we've included section 18 to enable us to use those services if they satisfy the public need that has been identified when establishing the network plan. So, as the Cabinet Secretary says, we don't think this will be used very often, but say you've got a service, it's provided under a section 19 permit, and it may take a certain group in a community to a certain place at a certain time—that need has been identified in the network plan, but actually it's only those people that will want to use that service. So, it's already satisfied, and therefore we wouldn't want to place a duty on Welsh Ministers to provide that service again, to secure that service again, under the network plan, if it's already been satisfied.

We don't want to, in effect, take community transport's purpose away from it. They are already providing that service, and they provide it well. So, we don't need to duplicate that service, just because the legislation is structured in a way that means we can't take those services into account. So, it is very technical, and it's very bitty, but we've had extensive conversations with the Community Transport Association and others around ensuring that community transport is given the kudos and the uplift by this legislation. So, this provision was just to make sure that we don't do anything unintended to harm their ability to do what they do. So, I hope—[Inaudible.]

I'm still a little bit confused. Now, you're only required to consult Welsh local authorities on the Welsh bus network plan and the relevant transport needs considered in section 19 of those in Wales. Now, you've told us in May that extensive engagement has taken place with English authorities. Why does the Bill not require this engagement, which you clearly recognise as being necessary?

Well, because—I forget exactly what sections they are, but we are content that consultation with English local authorities under two sections of the plan will be sufficient. I stand by what I said in my previous session, that cross-border services are vitally important and extensive engagement has been undertaken between Transport for Wales and English councils, particularly on the north Wales part of the Wales-England border, where we see—

What about the others?

The other English local authorities, or—

No, the other borders.

Yes, so all local authority areas in England where bus services currently operate to and from have been engaged by Transport for Wales in developing the network plan, and I—

And you're fully up to date with that engagement.

Yes, fully up to date with that engagement and it's ongoing, and it will be ongoing. So, if plans need to be revised, then obviously that engagement will take place. And I am content that the consultation that's required with English local authorities on the plan is reflected in the two sections. I think it's sections 6(4)(g) and 8(4)(g) that require that consultation with English local authorities. So, I am content that it is sufficient. And, again, I'd go back to the point that I've made on a couple of occasions now, that we're going to have a very vested interest in ensuring that we grow the revenue box, and to do that we have to get more people on buses. In order to do that, we have to plan routes and services that maximise opportunities for people to travel, and that includes on a cross-border basis.

Okay. I'm not on 23, but I'm on 24.

Okay. We're not sure that there's anything in the Bill that requires consultation with English authorities. Is that the case? Catrin wants to come in, I think.

Catrin.

Yes, I just wanted to say that, even though English local authorities aren't mentioned specifically, as the Cabinet Secretary says, the provisions in the Bill do require us to consult with any persons the Welsh Ministers consider appropriate. And of course—

Okay. So that will—

Yes. So, on cross-border, it would be inappropriate not to consult with—

Yes, sure. There we are. That flexibility is there. Okay. Just on section 21, then, if I could. Some stakeholders have queried why community bus services are exempt from the restriction on providing local bus services under section 21 and why the permit regime doesn't apply instead. So, I was just wondering how you respond to that, really.

If I may, I'll bring in James on this, if that's okay.

Yes, because the risk is, of course, that these community bus services operating outside the local bus service regime could potentially affect the viability of contracted or permitted services.

Yes, and our intention is to ensure that we enable community transport provision to work alongside and as part of local bus service operations, rather than cannibalise and rather than their being diminished in their strength. But, James.

Yes, thank you, Cabinet Secretary. As the Cabinet Secretary said earlier, we absolutely recognise the importance of those community bus services and what they do for some of the most vulnerable communities in Wales, and that's why, to reflect this, section, I think, 21(2)(a) of the Bill allows community bus services to operate free of restriction. Our intention is to ensure that we enable community transport provision to continue and flourish alongside and as part of the local bus network, as we've already said during the course of this session. It isn't our intention that these services will be competing with other services operating under a local bus service contract or permit, but instead it's about the fact that they offer a different type of service to communities.

Yes. Okay. Thank you. Janet.

So, some stakeholders, particularly not-for-profit community transport operators, have raised concerns about the burden of providing information under Part 4. How will this be managed and mitigated?

Sorry, that was the duty to make information available.

Yes.

Okay. So, local authorities are going to continue to be responsible for things like bus stop infrastructure and therefore for providing the information about bus service provision in an accessible format, obviously including, as I've said now on numerous occasions, in paper format. But it's going to be important for local authorities to work jointly with Transport for Wales to agree the most appropriate template for each region, and that's going to have to be done before franchising. So, each local authority will have a clear process on who is responsible for updating information at each bus stop. And as I've mentioned, we are setting up those national bus stop standards—which will help councils; it'll help the regions through their CJCs; and it'll help other partners—to ensure that we have a standard and high-quality provision of information and data. And it's important that we gather that data from all operators. It's important as well that we gather data from community transport operators, so that we know the full scale and scope of the network that exists across Wales.

Thanks, Cabinet Secretary. Why are section 19 community transport services and Part 3 of Schedule 1 services required to share data, given neither carry members of the public?

Well, because it's going to allow for effective planning for the future. Transport for Wales is going to be working with all operators to gather relevant data for the purpose of planning the network, so that's going to include all service providers. I think it makes perfect sense to do that.

Okay—

Well, I'll just—

I'm not 26—

No, no, it's okay. Just picking up, really, on the discussion in the explanatory memorandum on the duty, or the application of the duty, to make information available to the public, it focuses very much, as you would probably expect maybe, on the apps and electronic means of information, but who will therefore be responsible for information provided at bus stops and in paper form and paper timetables? I don't see the same level of discourse around that.

Yes, that will still be local authorities, but, as I've said, it's going to be important that, through those national bus stop standards, we have consistency across Wales. But it'll still be local authorities, with the support of Transport for Wales.

Okay. These bus stop standards are heavily trailed today, but I'm sure—. They don't sound the most exciting, as you said yourself, Cabinet Secretary, but absolutely critical, I know. Janet back to you.

Thank you. Some stakeholders have called for clarity on how municipal bus companies might be established. How will you address this, given there is no provision for guidance?

Well, if a council wanted to establish one, then we, within Welsh Government, would work with Transport for Wales in discussing the possibility of setting up a municipal bus company, but it might be different across each part of Wales, so we're not planning on producing any guidance.

Right, okay. And some stakeholders have noted and welcomed a Welsh Government political intent to protect existing municipal operators in the new regime, including within the franchising system. However, the Bill does not include any specific protections. Why not, and how will this protection be achieved?

Well, I don't think there's actually a need, within the Bill, to provide those protections explicitly. We've got two municipals at the moment—we've got one in Cardiff and one in Newport—and the basis upon which they operate is going to be preserved to enable Cardiff and Newport councils to transition the existing companies. And that's because they're going to be able to use the general power of competence to create new companies, so they'll be able to then transition into it. And I think that provides that distinction between the old and the new regime, but I think Alex may be able to explain this in greater detail.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Yes, I think the White Paper that was published back in 2022 was very clear that the intention is to sustain a market that includes a range of SMEs and municipal operators as well as the larger commercial operators. So, we do support the principle of municipal bus companies remaining in the public sector, and we're working at the moment with Cardiff and Newport councils to examine options to achieve this, and obviously any options must deliver value for money.

So, once the existing restriction on local authorities providing bus services is lifted, Cardiff Bus and Newport Bus will be able to transition—sorry, as the Cabinet Secretary has already said—under the general power of competence. We don't need specific provision. So, to provide a local bus service, subject to the restrictions in section 21 of the Bill, a municipal operator will need to have been granted a local bus service contract or local bus service permit.

Okay, thank you.

Thank you very much, thank you. Carolyn.

Thank you, Chair. Stakeholders have highlighted a need to maintain the current local authority duty to secure bus services during the transition period in unfranchised areas as they move to being franchised. Will current arrangements remain in place, and when will section 33 be commenced?

Yes, thanks, Carolyn. Yes, we're going to be maintaining the current duty during the transition period, and local authorities will be made aware of when section 33 will commence in good time. We're going to give them ample time, ample notice so that they can make appropriate preparations, and we're going to be doing it on a zonal basis, I should say as well. So, we're going to do it on a zonal basis that will then map against the respective local authorities within that zone.

Okay, thank you. And section 34 empowers local authorities to fund local bus services, and stakeholders highlight that without a statutory duty around the new local bus service regime, councils may cut bus spending. We've seen in the past that some councils have and they expect Transport for Wales to step in; some have kept them so that they've been able to keep services that are really important to them locally as well. So, they're really worried about the limited funds that there may be going forward, if local authorities withdraw them as well. What impact would this have, do you think, and how will you ensure that it doesn't happen? Well, I don't think you can, really, but—

That's right.

It's a consideration, though, going forward, isn't it?

Yes, absolutely. So, I recognise that there is a risk. The risk is twofold: first, decisions at a local authority level not to support services as they currently do, but then there's the other risk of potentially a future Welsh Government deciding not to spend or invest as much in services. So, there is that twin risk. But it would be my hope that local authorities and future Welsh Governments would commit to supporting the bus network adequately and ensure that it meets the needs of passengers across Wales.

But I should tell Members that I have committed to ensuring that where a local authority has been providing funding directly, they'll be able to in the future, in a way that ensures that it's spent within that authority. So, that will hopefully encourage councils to continue to support bus services within their local authority boundaries.

I think that was the reassurance that the local authority representative we did the evidence session with was seeking, really; that their money, from those who do actually still contribute, that that money wouldn't be pooled, that it would be kept in that local authority area. So, that's good to have that reassurance from you.

Yes. Absolutely.

Thank you.

I think it's kind of a purchasing power, and that's what will ensure that local authorities, I think, go on supporting bus services within their respective areas.

Can I just ask then, on a slightly broader note, really: with the statutory duties shifting to Welsh Ministers, away from local authorities, what impact or implications would that have in relation to the RSG, the revenue support grant for local authorities?

It doesn't necessarily have any direct implications insofar as the RSG is concerned, because Welsh Ministers already spend, as I've said, £600 million in a Senedd term, so a huge quantum of money. Where there are implications is if we were to go into a situation where local authorities decided not to invest in local bus services, then there could be a reduction in those local authority areas.

In terms of public sector spending through the RSG, if councils prioritise bus services, as they have done in many parts of Wales, then those services will be maintained, but there is a risk; I do acknowledge that there is a risk.

So, there's no sort of formulaic change or anything to reflect the change in statutory duties.

No, there's not. Not to the RSG, no.

Okay, thank you very much. Julie next, then.

Yes, just to ask you about TUPE, how will that apply in practice in terms of timescales, the need for data and information disclosure? These processes will obviously have to be established; how and when will this happen?

Can I bring in Alex or James on this, if that's okay?

Okay. Who fancies it? Alex or James? Catrin, even. There we are, okay.

Catrin. There we go.

I'm going to jump in on you, because I was talking about this earlier with somebody. So, obviously, we're making regulations just on the circumstances in which the TUPE regulations, which, obviously, are already in existence, are already established, will apply. We're planning to develop the policy on it with engagement with unions, with operators, and TfW, of course. In good time now, during the summer, a lot of the work will be, and we intend to potentially hold some workshops to help develop those ideas. A lot of work has already been done by TfW in the thinking around how they'll be applied. So, what we intend to do is to establish a policy framework that we can share the details of in order to consult with stakeholders, so that we can get that done before the election, because that means that we'll be able to provide some assurances to operators, in particular in the south-west, when the first contracts are tendered next summer.

So, there is a tight time frame, but, as I say, there has been quite a bit of work and quite a lot of thinking around this already. By, I'd say, the autumn, we would hope to be able to have something quite significant to share on TUPE. TUPE is really complicated because the management of it on a day-to-day basis, once this is rolled out, will be for operators, not for Transport for Wales or for us. As I say, we're not changing the regulations on TUPE, we're just looking at how they will be applied and the circumstances under which they'll be applied. So, there is a lot of work to do, but we think that the regulations, because they're established, people have a good understanding about them, we just need to provide the reassurance around how it will look in reality on the bus.

Will you be providing specific guidance in the context of the Bill?

Apologies—

Will you be providing specific guidance in the context of the Bill? I think that's what Julie said.

Right, we won't—. Sorry, Cabinet Secretary, I should hand over to you.

No, no, that's fine. We're not planning on it, no.

No.

Okay, presumably because it's a pretty standard way of working, and you'd wish for that to play out in this context as it would in others, yes?

Indeed, yes.

Okay, thank you. So, just coming on to the regulation-making powers, then, because, obviously, a lot of the stakeholders have told us that they understand that regulations bring a flexibility, maybe, that wouldn't be there if everything was on the face of the Bill. But at the same time, there's a huge amount of detail, as we've found in this scrutiny session and others as well, that is being left to subordinate legislation. So, a number of the stakeholders, and ourselves, actually, as a committee, are wondering whether you will consult on regulations thoroughly. Would you, for example, be open-minded to amending the Bill to require consultation, particularly on certain aspects, key areas like contract terms, permit conditions and that kind of thing?

We're committed, absolutely committed, to consult on proposed secondary legislation, and that includes regulations where it's appropriate. So, I don't think that the Bill needs to be amended to require consultation on areas like contract terms and permit conditions. We are working incredibly closely with stakeholders, our partners, and we are absolutely committed to developing secondary legislation with our stakeholders. We'll be doing so in regard to TUPE, regulations in relation to TUPE and information data, first and foremost, and the consultation process will be the normal 12 weeks for stakeholders to respond. All consultations on all of the regulations that we're going to be consulting on will have a clear start-and-finish date, and we'll be providing information to stakeholders regarding those consultations.

Okay, diolch yn fawr. I think we've reached the very last question from Carolyn.

Previously it's been mentioned about having a citizens charter, or I've noticed that Transport for Wales offer a passenger charter for rail transport, and I was wondering if this could be extended to public bus transport. This is something that's been raised by our committee colleague, Delyth, who is really concerned about the last transport home, maybe, if it's late, and if it's not running, that somebody's not left anywhere, if it's dark and dangerous, away from home, to make sure that they can get home safely. So, that is one example, really, about having this charter in place. So, just your views on it, please.

Yes, I agree. I think it gives the travelling public confidence, and what's good for rail services, in my view, should be good for bus services when it comes to having confidence that you're not going to be left stranded, that you are going to be safe, that services are secure into the future.

We're looking at what is being done in Manchester and what is being done at the moment in the Liverpool city region with regard to passenger charters, and we'll be learning from them. We'll be working with trade unions as well, because, obviously, a passenger charter must reflect the workforce in the sector and the responsibilities that workers have. So, we'll be developing something akin to the passenger charter for rail. As I say, I think what's good for rail services is good for bus services, and I think that what Delyth has outlined—Delyth and I met recently, actually, to talk about inclusive and safe transport—is absolutely right. And, again, I think we'll be able to utilise the experience and the expertise of Vernon Everitt in this regard. Inclusivity and safe travel is something that he's been tirelessly focused on.

Okay, thank you.

Lovely. Okay. Well, thank you so much, Cabinet Secretary, for being with us again, we appreciate it, and your officials as well. That concludes the evidence that we're going to take on the first stage of the Bus Services (Wales) Bill. There's plenty for us to discuss and digest and we will do so and report accordingly—I believe no later than 25 July. So, we'll certainly, then, obviously, go from there, as they say. So, diolch yn fawr iawn. Thank you so much for being with us this morning.

Thank you very much. Goodbye.

So, we will now break for lunch and the committee will reconvene so that we can start at 13.10 p.m. for the final few items on our agenda.

Welcome back to this committee meeting. We're moving on to our fourth item this afternoon, and we'll be conducting the pre-appointment hearing with the Welsh Government's preferred candidate for the role of chair of Transport for Wales, namely Vernon Everitt. A very warm welcome to you. We're very grateful to you for joining us this afternoon. We will be spending an hour or so scrutinising, or up to an hour, and then, obviously, we'll have an opportunity to ask any questions.

So, I'll start, if I may. In your curriculum vitae, you describe yourself as a highly experienced and effective leader in transport. It would be good, perhaps, to hear a few examples of how you believe you've demonstrated that you are highly experienced and effective as a leader in this particular field, to support your description.

Diolch yn fawr, Chair, and shwmae members of the committee. I have experience in transport, beginning in 2007, when I joined Transport for London, and I was a senior executive from day one. Do you mind if I—?

Yes, whatever is most comfortable to you.

I was a senior executive in Transport for London from day one, charged really with stitching together the various bits of Transport for London, which, at that point, were not fully integrated. So, I put myself at the centre of making sure transport in London was effective for the people, places, culture and economy of London.

Transport isn't an end in itself, so my job was to put the pieces together, and make using public transport and active travel more accessible and better for people. And I had a series of roles there, including running the travel demand management systems for the London 2012 Olympics, where I really cut my teeth on events and the way in which that could be delivered most effectively. And I then went on to hold a whole bunch of senior roles, including an interim period running London Underground itself. But, mainly, my job was to stitch together the different modes of transport, make sense of them, provide better customer information, increase accessibility to the transport network to facilitate what was a growing London.

I then had, for the past three years, the role of transport commissioner in greater Manchester. I'm also chair of the Transport for Greater Manchester's board. I'm appointed by the mayor and the combined authority in greater Manchester. And I've had the accountability there for building the Bee Network, which is greater Manchester's London-style, if you like, public transport and active travel network. And I know that you visited—

We did, indeed, yes. And we were very impressed with what we saw.

So, I've had all of that. And at the same time, for the last six years, I've been a non-executive director of Transport for Wales, and was in a year after the creation of Transport for Wales, and have worked with Scott, the existing chair, with James Price, the chief executive, to build up Transport for Wales, and deal with a number of highly challenging, frankly, events along the way. But now we're on the cusp of delivering some really great things for the people, businesses and communities of Wales. So, it's that flow, Chair.

And I was going to ask you particularly about your depth of knowledge and understanding of the Welsh context. Obviously, given you've already said that you've been involved for a while with Transport for Wales, I'd imagine that that's—.

It's given me real insight, Chair, into the needs of Wales, which I need to deepen. But, for example, I've chaired the major projects committee on behalf of Scott and the board, which has looked at things in depth, like the south Wales metro, like the redevelopment of Cardiff Central, the delivery of the bus interchange in Cardiff, Cardiff Crossrail, and also obviously more recently putting the plans together for network north Wales, including the metro for the north. So, that's given me real insight and, over and above those specific projects, the introduction of new trains, and just delivering better performing rail services has been at the centre of my experience as well. Obviously, we all had some very dark days during COVID, but we've recovered from all of that now and are on a very strong, I would say, upward trajectory on performance. But it's all of those things, Chair, that's given me, I think, a real insight into it.

I've also been able to come to appreciate how transport supports, culturally, everything that goes on in Wales. So, you've got massive events that happen here where transport is at the centre of enabling them. I was here, a couple of weeks ago, when Wales played Liechtenstein, and I just stood on the concourse outside Cardiff Central and watched how it worked. I know that there have been concerns in the past about how events have been handled, and I like to think we've worked hard to get better at that: the new trains, better public information, better stewarding on the ground, better queuing—all of those things that just improve the experience. The Eisteddfod, of course, was a big test for all of that as well, and we've got major events coming up with the Euros in 2028; we've got the grand départ coming in 2027, and I can tell you from experience that that is a big, big deal, because they turn up and take over your region, and that all needs to be administered. So, both from a project performance and how transport enables the culture of Wales, I think I've been given some real insight into that as a non-executive director, and, of course, that also applies in respect of the Welsh language and the role that that plays across the piece.

Of course. Thank you for all of that. Obviously, you have an involvement with a number of players in the broader transport sector in the UK, from greater Manchester to London, as you mentioned. I'm just wondering whether there's any potential for conflicts of interest anywhere. Particularly, I note that you're a strategic transport advisor to Teneo consultants. Can you assure us that there won't be any issues where there's overlap or potential conflicts?

Chair, I can give you my absolute assurance that there will not be conflicts, either in relation to Teneo or any of my other roles. I am acutely conscious of the Nolan principles and of good corporate governance, and, actually, in the six years that I've been a non-executive director, where, of course, were any conflicts to arise I would have needed to have declared those, I have never been in a position where I've needed to declare them. So, I don't believe there will be any conflicts, Chair.

Fine, thank you for that—thank you very much. Carolyn.

Thank you, Chair. Good afternoon. I'd like to ask you some questions regarding the governance of Transport for Wales. How effective is Transport for Wales's governance structure, particularly its board? Are there any changes that you would like to make, and, if so, how?

Diolch. I think Transport for Wales has a mature way of governing. The board itself is under the leadership of Scott Waddington, and I've learned huge amounts from Scott, from watching the way he operates and the way he works with James, and I think that's been very powerful. I mean, we challenge James, and James and his entire and highly capable, I would say, executive team have always been responsive to those challenges. So, I think, from a board perspective, if you look at the composition of the board, we have financial expertise; we have specific bus expertise in Louise Cheeseman OBE, who's also chair of Women in Transport and a role model for women entering the transport industry; we have Rhian Langham, who's an expert in organisational development; we have Vinay Parmar, who's an expert in customer service; and, of course, we have Scott as chair.

In recent months, there's been a bit of a roll-off of some previous board members because they've reached their sixth year, or two three-year-term stints. So, some of those board members are new, and we will lose some of the other experts that we currently have on the board as they roll off as well. So, I would work very closely and, were I lucky enough to be appointed, would think about the sorts of skills that we need around the table for this moment in Transport for Wales's history.

We've also got, of course, a number of sub-committees of the board that go into much greater depth into issues than we're able to do at boards themselves. So, I chair the major projects committee, which goes into more depth on things like the delivery of the south Wales metro and some of the other projects that I mentioned earlier on, and there's a people and remuneration one, chaired by a fellow non-executive director. I think, actually, that the board and that sub-board structure would reflect what you would expect to see in a FTSE 100 company. So, I think there are solid foundations, but we continue to need to evolve it, given what Transport for Wales has on its plate.

Thank you. I've learned quite a lot about the board and its members today, so that's very interesting, and I believe Louise was at the Transport for Wales seminar in Wrexham.

She was. I met you there, and Louise and I did a bit of a double act on bus reform. She's just recently been awarded an OBE for her services on a wide range of transport issues, and leadership to—

For women as well. Excellent.

Completely.

Okay. Thank you. Do you believe that the performance of the Transport for Wales group as a whole is effectively managed and reported currently, and does it need to improve? We have scrutiny of Transport for Wales on an annual basis, once a year. So, I'll put that to you.

I'm a strong believer in total transparency in all of this area, and, in fact, there are published deliverables once a quarter on train performance, on our financial performance, on safety performance. So, these are, in fact, published, and I think there's been some debate in the past as to whether we're putting out all of the information that we really should.

I have to say my philosophy is to get everything out there and explain. And I think, particularly when we take more accountability for buses, we are going to have a whole bunch of data about buses and information about the way in which the whole of Wales moves around the country that we've never had before, and I think we should share that.

So, at the board, we scrutinise these performance numbers. In fact, there's a Transport for Wales board meeting today, and after the safety report, the second thing we do is interrogate the performance numbers for rail, for bus, for safety, for customer, for finances. And the indicators that are published—I think this one was published last Monday—give a synopsis of that. But I'm very happy to consult with you on what more you think we should make public, because I'm sure we are by no means perfect.

Thank you. I think your audience is going to massively increase with roll-out of the Bus Services (Wales) Bill as well, and the delivery of that. Thank you for that.

Do you think that Transport for Wales is able to effectively balance its role as a Welsh Government delivery body with the need to provide robust evidence and challenge to political policy makers? We're the Senedd, so we challenge Welsh Government on everything. So, how would you seek to develop this relationship as well?

I think our role as public servants is to provide frank and fearless advice. Clearly, the democratically elected politicians are in charge and have a vision for Wales, and a very ambitious one, and our job is then to advise them on the delivery of it. That's not a party political role, that's a pure transport professional role.

Particularly in the area of rail reform, I think there's a lot that we can advise Welsh Government on as we seek to secure much more investment in Wales's rail infrastructure. I guess, if we think about it, bus franchising, although there are cross-border elements of bus franchising, that really is accentuated, I think, when you look at rail. So, I think that giving advice to Welsh Government on the way in which the relationship with Great British Railways and all of that develops over time is going to be imperative to the future prosperity of the country, and I think we've got a lot to contribute in shaping that.

That's good to hear.

Thank you. Julie.

Thank you. Prynhawn da. As we've already said, Transport for Wales's functions have grown rapidly and are obviously going to grow a lot more—really, there's been a huge growth, and obviously this has brought challenges. So, how have you sought to address these as a non-executive director, and when you become chair, what further steps would you take?

I think one of the main areas where I've been really uncomfortable, frankly, as a non-executive, was with rail performance, and we very, very heavily scrutinised the executive team on all of the steps that were necessary in order to make sure that core services are what Wales needs. That's been really hard work to get onto a trajectory where we are now delivering the sorts of results in these reports. So, I think we've given a laser-like focus to performance, because, in my experience, if you don't have rock-solid performance on your core transport network, you don't have a licence to speak about anything else. So, we've concentrated enormously there, we've concentrated on the funding and financing side of things. Our job is to reduce the revenue call on Welsh Government, and we need to do that by growing ridership on public transport and active travel, so that we get more revenue and we get the net subsidy down. So, we've looked at both the functions of Transport for Wales alongside delivering services in a more efficient way, because that's hugely important.

We've also scrutinised very heavily the projects. So, what I refer to in probably in-house language at TfW as the CVL lines—the core Valleys lines—I mean, plainly COVID made that a huge challenge. So, we effectively had to stop the project and then we had a period of almost hyper price inflation on all of the materials and other things that we needed to do in order to finish off CVL, and that took an enormous amount of work to work through how we could, in Transport for Wales, procure materials in a more effective way, and so on. So, I think I would highlight performance, rail and the delivery effectively and efficiently of projects as some of the key areas that I personally have examined and I think that we are going to need to keep an eye on, not least because of everything that you've been discussing in your scrutiny of the bus Bill, and as I mentioned before, rail is about to take on new and bigger dimensions for us as well.

So, that's what you've been doing as a non-exec director, and that's what you'll carry on as chair, in an increased way?

Well, as chair, my job is to set the right agenda for the board, so that we can hold ourselves to account to Welsh Government and all of our stakeholders. So, I would like, actually, to do two things differently. I would first like to take the board on the road. We have our meetings currently in Pontypridd and we've had some in Wrexham. Again with bus franchising in mind, I think we need to have a cycle of rolling meetings across all four CJCs, so that the board itself gets, and I get, greater exposure to the needs of the different communities around Wales. I mean, nowhere is homogeneous. I would take us on the road, so two or three meetings per annum would be held in each CJC area. And in fact it was one of the things that I was going to ask you; I'll come and speak if I may, Chair, to each member individually, just to get some advice on where you think we should come.

On the bus. You can go on the bus.

Yes, we need all the patronage we can get, so that's a good route into that. [Laughter.]

I also would like just to change board meetings a little bit to have deeper dives. Sorry that's a bit textbook jargony, but to get under the bonnet more as a board of some of the really big things that we've got on our plate about organisational capability. Because you asked a question about how is Transport for Wales going to cope with all of this stuff coming its way, and that's a really real and legitimate question. In my view, there's a very talented team there, but we need to keep a constant eye on that, and I would also like to have deeper dives. In fact, at the board meeting today, as we speak, there is a deeper dive going on on buses and some of the stuff that Lee was talking to you about this morning.

So, I would like as chair, were I lucky enough to be appointed, to go and explain more publicly what it is that we're doing. In greater Manchester we have, for example, something called ‘in the hot seat’, which is every Thursday, when the mayor goes on the radio and answers questions from real-life people.

We picked that up from our meeting and we proposed that to the Cabinet Secretary just in our previous session, so that's the kind of approach that we would obviously applaud.

I commit to doing my bit. I've been in the hot seat myself, both with the mayor and flying solo, and I just think we cannot explain enough what it is that we're trying to do here and how it helps people live better lives.

That's very encouraging.

I think we've covered a lot of the transparency stuff. The only thing I'd maybe ask is: you mentioned the performance data that you referenced earlier—any thoughts about publishing route-level rail performance data, because, being such an advocate of transparency, that would be good?

Chair, I'm completely open to that. We do it at an aggregate level—we do it at core Valleys line and borders level—at the moment, but I can see that we might want to break that down further, absolutely.

Great. Okay, thank you. Joyce.

Good afternoon, and, with that in mind, what do you see as the biggest challenges—you've mentioned the overall challenges, but—the biggest challenge and top priorities for TfW for the next maybe five, 10 years? I know there's a caveat.

Diolch. I think almost the biggest challenge is the combination of all of the things coming our way. You could say—. Clearly, landing bus franchising is mission critical, and it's here and now. We, collectively, will be operating the first franchise services in 2027, and therefore that's probably top priority in terms of landing all of that. But I would, if I may, like to expand on that, because I think you can never take your eyes off performance. As I mentioned before, without rock-solid reliability, performance—and safety, actually—. One of the things that I'm very keen on is exploring how we can make the network both be and feel safer, particularly for women and girls. This is something that I've spent a lot of my career focusing on, and we spent a lot of time in greater Manchester doing that.

So, performance, safety, climate change and climate resilience are a huge challenge for us, where we need—. That cannot be an add-on; you need to design climate resilience into everything that you do, and that's a huge challenge for us. The financial challenges I mentioned; we need to reduce the call that Transport for Wales has on the revenue budget of Welsh Government. And organisational development as well, where we just need to make sure that we can keep everybody sane with everything that's on their plate, and effective. So the design of the organisation, I think, is another top priority.

So, sorry, it's not one thing, but, if you really pressed me, I would say that fleshing out how we're going to deliver bus franchising and what we're going to present to the Senedd early next year is the most pressing priority.

I would put two things together, because you asked for the regional data—on trains, I'm assuming you were talking about. You also mentioned the climate change challenge. And if you go into one of the regions—. Because I cover mid and west Wales; you probably know that. That always is hit by adverse weather; it's that Heart of Wales line. Now, there's nothing you can do about that immediately. But I think, for me, using that data in a way to make a case might be important.

I hear exactly what you say; I could not agree more. And if I may build on that suggestion, I think the other thing that we are able to do with the money that is being released for the network in the north is we can start trialling innovative things that will enable us to move quicker. So, electrification is a classic example, I think, of where the old way of electrifying all of our network isn't necessarily the only way, with battery technology, discontinuous electrification and things like that. We've got the money now to test and trial those things, and get that in the ground.

I think we could probably apply that principle to a lot of the things we need to do on climate change as well to speed up how we build up our resilience to all of that.

Of course, another change that you won't have any influence over—and we don't get much, quite truthfully—is the elections that are coming up, and, potentially, having a whole other set of priorities, or none at all, maybe. So, how will you—? Have you dealt with that in the past? I think that might help you. And how would you deal with it if it happens in the very near future?

Thank you. I have dealt with it in the past. If I think about my role in London, I started off under a Labour mayor, then I had eight years under a Conservative mayor, then I had nearly eight years again under a Labour mayor. I serve under a Labour mayor in greater Manchester. So, regime change is something I'm familiar with. We are not politicians; we are the public servants who are there to deliver what the elected politicians, the democratically elected politicians, have been elected to deliver. What I would do, and what I did, with each of those changes in administration, was listen carefully to what it is that everybody was saying that they wanted to do on transport, as part of the election campaigning and elsewhere, so that, on the day of the new administration, I could present to them their 100-day plan for execution. So, yes, clearly the elected politicians are in charge. Our job is to execute for them.

You started answering that change means bringing people with you, otherwise you've really got a problem. So, do you want to—? And, of course, the T network will be a significant change, and we talked about that. But, about the role of bringing people with you, how would you go about that, apart from—and I heard what you said—holding meetings outside of one place, doing radio interviews? What else would you add on to that?

I think there's a whole range of engagement that we need to do, including extensive public campaigns, to get the message out about what it is that we are doing and seeking to deliver, and I also think that extends—. We talked about transparency and performance; I think that also extends to providing that at stations. People should be able to see how their lines are in fact performing. So, no, there's not one thing; we need to create a weather front whereby, if I were to be chair, I would lead, to get out there and explain, for the executive to do the same, and for us to think very carefully about the public campaigns. I think a lot of Transport for Wales's public campaigns are excellent, but we need more of them. We need to be constantly on, in that regard. So, I think it's a combination of campaigns, being out there publicly at events. There was the wonderful Welsh transport summit in Wrexham a couple of weeks ago; it felt to me like something changed there in terms of the discourse about what we're doing here in Wales, and the impact that it's having, and we just need to be out there more.

I would also, if I may—. Most of my time will of course be spent here in Wales. The other thing I will do, though, is represent Wales in Westminster and around the country, so that people understand our case and what we are doing and how innovative we are. Because I am convinced that as soon as we say, 'Switch on the south Wales metro', that our patronage will go through the roof anyway, because people will want to come and see what that's doing and how that's been done. So, I hope that sort of answers your question.

It does.

I just think we need to be out there in all ways, shapes and forms, to explain what we're doing, how we're doing it, and the success that we're having.

Finally from me, you've got a remit letter—well you haven't, Transport for Wales has—with objectives, which won't be new to you, which are enhancing commercial opportunities, maximising revenue, minimising cost, mitigating risk, exploiting opportunities, and we've talked about that and how you've achieved it. But how will you achieve it as chair, going forward, whilst at the same time maximising the value for the public?

Again, I think, as chair, our job is to publicly demonstrate how we are delivering on each element of what you've just described, and my job will be to make sure that we as a board are focusing on the big things that matter, that go towards the delivery of that remit. So, we need to run the board as a business. We need to be commercial in outlook. And there have been some really good innovations, I think, in that area. The introduction of pay-as-you-go ticketing, for example, that has not been done anywhere else in the United Kingdom outside London. I did it in London. But, in Wales, it's been done here before anybody else, and that is a big commercial play, because if you just make it easier for people to tap and go more people will just come and use you; it just lowers the barriers.

We've also looked at pricing of our services as well to optimise filling up the trains, frankly. So, I think, as chair, I've got to set the right agenda, set the right culture, set the right business environment, but never losing sight of the fact that transport isn't an end in itself; it's about delivering better lives for people, better places for people, and for improving the size of our economic cake so that every part of Wales benefits. And that's about astute agenda setting, I think.

Thank you.

Thank you very much. Carolyn.

I'm just going off a bit here, but you mentioned pricing and filling up trains, so getting the pricing just right, and I know that the revenue has increased by 25 per cent, hasn't it, the fare revenue. So, it's been really—. Or passenger use has increased—

Yes, the revenue—

—by 25 per cent. So, we've got revenue coming back in.

Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you. The revenue is up nearly 18 per cent over the course of the year. And patronage is really growing.

By 25 per cent. It's been raised with us, though, in the past that fares are higher in north Wales compared to south Wales. Would you be looking at maybe restructuring fares to make it more equal—which is totally off the agenda and probably a bit cheeky?

Well, as a fellow Member for north Wales, I'll allow that question. [Laughter.]

That's what we're told. I think it goes back to historic fares or something that haven't been addressed properly.

The issue of fares across the United—. You need a spreadsheet, a wet towel, and lots of other things in order to work out the best price for anything. It's a major, major challenge. I hadn't appreciated that there was quite such a differential. We will need to advise Welsh Government on fares, and I think, if we're integrating public transport, that means linking up, as we've done and as you would have seen in greater Manchester. You need to have a fares structure that is simple and always guarantees people the lowest fare. And I think we need to take a step back and work out how we get from where we are today to that nirvana. Some of that is quite difficult, actually, because, in London, I helped deliver all of that as well, and we had to do it in three goes because sometimes you do create losers from changing fares as well as winners, and you have to be very sensitive and careful with the way in which that's done. But, nevertheless, our aim ought to be to simplify the fare structure, and I don't see why it would be different between north and south Wales.

Thank you. Going back to my questions—so, this is about implementing the bus franchising now—in your view, is Transport for Wales ready to lead the implementation of the Bus Services (Wales) Bill on behalf of Welsh Ministers? What more needs to happen, and how do you make sure it does as chair?

So, thank you for that question. 'Yes' is my immediate answer. I think the fact that Lee Robinson is in unambiguous charge of the way in which franchising is being shaped is a good thing. Clear roles and accountabilities are important here. But on franchising, there are different phases to this, and you need different skills and knowledge and experience for each one. I think we've got a continuous job to make sure that we've got the right people to plan the network, to manage the consultations, to procure the services and write the contracts in the most effective way that will deliver better services for all parts of Wales.

Again, we experienced this in greater Manchester. When you haven't been running a franchised bus network, the way in which you organise yourselves internally has to change very radically, from the finances, from HR, from communications, from operational planning, to safety and security. All of those things need to be carefully recognised and planned for, and there will be moments in the journey towards franchising across all four of the CJCs where decisions and handing on the baton to different people needs to happen.

A classic example of that is when you get to the point where you're pressing the button in south-west Wales in 2027, someone needs to suddenly be in operational charge of the whole thing, and that is a major thing that needs real planning for. But if you asked me are we at the right place in terms of the point of maturity that we're at, where the legislation of course is still going through the Senedd and being scrutinised, are we in the right place, yes. Will we need to evolve our approach? Absolutely.

Are you concerned about the timetable that's been put forward to roll out the franchising of public bus transport? For me, it feels a little bit tight, based on how it's happened in Manchester. Just your view on that.

No, I'm not concerned about it. I think that we should obsess about it and make sure that all of our ducks are in a row. In greater Manchester, we did it in three phases between September 2023 and January 2025. So, we actually had a shorter period. And they were quite 'big bang' changes in greater Manchester. So, in a way, the greater Manchester change was delivered in a slightly shorter burst. So, I'm not concerned about it, but do we need to focus—? The thing I would say is that each tranche will be different. It's not as if you can say 'job done' in 2027, and, 'We'll just do a template for the next three years.' We will be surprised along the way by something different about the network or the culture or something, and therefore agility in the way in which we tackle these things is going to be vital.

And engaging with stakeholders—that's operators, local authorities, passengers that will be using—. There are lots of different organisations, as well, representing passengers, and people with disabilities et cetera, going forward. The evidence during Bill scrutiny over the last few weeks is that the engagement has not been the best. We've heard more since then, though, about how engagement has been moving forward in south-west Wales, where the first tranche is going to be implemented.

When we start rolling it out, and if there's any concerns, we don't want to lose people. Expectation will be at a certain level, and then very often if people might try the train and it's not on time, that might just put them off forever. It's the same with the roll-out of the bus transport, the franchising now going forward with the bus Bill. We just want to manage expectation, and then should anything be wrong, people need to know why, and they like to know quite quickly, and then they might understand and it would be more acceptable if there's an issue.

So, how are you going to manage all that? I really appreciate the fact that you said you would be prepared to do something live as well, on the radio, as happens. I've noticed on the platforms, though, that the people are quite good, aren't they—on the platforms, the guards giving information. But it's so important to people, so how do you—?

Completely. The staff, incidentally, at Transport for Wales are amazing. I never cease to be impressed by the people on the trains, at the interchanges. They're a real credit, I think, to TfW. It's my job to get out there—. Actually, I wish I'd said it in answer to your question. It is my job as chair to get out there and meet people and explain all around the country.

You're right, one bad experience means that people may never come back. But I think going on the road, getting out there, being visible around the bus interchanges and all of that—. I think people will appreciate the fact that we can't change everything overnight. I think it's pretty smart to do the base network planning alongside then having an aspirational set of plans. And the bridge to franchising stuff that Lee has done with Powys I think is really clever, because you're almost anticipating some of the issues that will arise and dealing with them before you're confronted with them in the heat of service delivery.

The engagement has to be relentless, with the recognised trade unions, with the CJCs, with the individual local authorities, with the third sector, with passengers and customers themselves in the ways that I think were described to you this morning. So, I don't know what more to say other than it's shoe leather, it's getting out there, it's explanation, and it's managing expectations, but people are going to expect things to be better. What's the point otherwise? We need to make things better, even if it's making sure that the current network actually delivers what it says on the tin. And then, from that position of strength, we can start to improve the network.

In greater Manchester, we've already changed 75 routes in one way, shape or form—added buses, changed the timetable, changed routes—in response to local community reaction. And we have a systematic programme of going around asking local authorities how it's working for their communities, and I would like to do the same here, because bus networks need to live and breathe. They're not set in aspic. But on your core question about setting expectations, I think that it's quite smart to have this base, don't change much in the first instance, see how you go and then incrementally start adding improvements.

Thank you. We've got about 15 minutes left. I know, Julie, that you've got a few questions, and I have a few as well, so we'll try to get through them all if we can.

You see the core Valleys lines modernisation as a success, but it did overrun by 40 per cent in the predicted costs, and I think that you were the chair of the major projects board committee. How did you seek to minimise those costs?

We had to take a root-and-branch relook at the way in which we were procuring the materials and the people necessary to deliver electrification. Part of the core Valleys lines challenge was caused by COVID. We had to almost draw a line under the progress that was being made and rebaseline the whole programme. I remember one particular meeting, when we were in the depths of COVID and we were looking at what was happening to commodity prices, steel and all the sorts of things that you need to complete the project, and the price was just going through the roof. We had to look again at the way in which the project was being operated, and we had some choices to make about what we carried on with and what we didn't.

We're in a position at the moment where we still haven't electrified north of Caerphilly. We need to go up to Rhymney. That will be completed by the early part of 2026, but that had to be reprioritised in order to get the rest of it done. We basically disassembled the programme and built it back up from first principles. We put in a whole bunch of controls that showed us the productivity of the project. The thing that happened with the Elizabeth line and the delays there in London, and actually what we're now reading about HS2, is partly because there wasn't a tight enough account of what was being done by when. And so the work to go that we were seeing was giving a bit of a false read-out about the progress that was being made. So, we had to disaggregate the whole thing, build it up, and then start thinking about different ways in which we procured raw materials, for example, to put a cap on the costs.

So, I think from a very difficult place, we've wrestled it back to being on the cusp of delivering massive benefits for the people who live in and around the area. We've been very conscious of the lineside disruption that there has been. I know in particular along the Coryton line there were a number of complaints about noise and the way in which the project was being conducted. But I think we've now wrestled it back and got it to the point where it's about to deliver the benefits to the local community.

I represent Coryton, and so I'm well aware of all the complaints. It's been a very difficult time for the residents living next to the line.

I completely empathise. We need to be good neighbours in all of these things, and it didn't always work out that way, particularly in your neck of the woods.

No. Thank you very much for that. Transport for Wales has been criticised at times for how it handles disruption and the communication with passengers when disruption is taking place. Why has this been so difficult to get right, and how can you address it?

I think we can address it in a number of ways. First and foremost, we need to address disruption through the staff on the ground at the time. One of the defining features of Transport for Wales is that we have plenty of people around and, therefore, there is no excuse for us not being able to explain to people who have been stranded or people whose service has been disrupted.

The thing that I did in London was encourage, for example, tube drivers to make announcements when there was disruption—actually, even when we were waiting for a platform to clear, because when a train stops people start wondering whether they're going to be disrupted and need some reassurance. So, first and foremost, use our staff on the ground to give them the information that they need in order to keep passengers informed. I've had several recent examples, actually, when there's been disruption on the Marches line. There was a great example, where the guard passed through the train to explain to all passengers why we were being held up.

There's a technological solution to some of this as well. I think technology is there to support people—it's not a replacement for them. But we do have things like apps, where we can broadcast more information. I think making tannoy announcements at things like bus interchanges—why don't we do that? We do that at railway stations, but if there's disruption maybe on the highways network, which is preventing buses from running normally, why don't we make announcements there as well?

I would like to see, as part of our customer strategy at Transport for Wales, how we are going to continue to improve our passenger and customer information. People need to be supported when things have gone wrong. When everything's going right, it's all fine and, in a way, transport is invisible, as it should be, because it should just be working. The defining moment for you is when it's all gone wrong. I will do a specific piece of work, if I may, and come back and let you know about what we're going to do to make sure that that information flows cleanly. It was one of the defining things that I did at Transport for London and I think that that is regarded as a high benchmark for passenger and customer information. We need to get to the same place here.

Thank you.

You mentioned briefly in passing earlier the wider rail reform context and the establishment of Great British Railways. I'm just wondering what your assessment is of any opportunities, or indeed threats, that might come our way here in Wales as a consequence of all of that.

If I may start with the threats, I think one of the great things that we have to our advantage here is that the core Valleys lines are wholly controlled locally, the trains and the infrastructure. That isn't the case, of course, across the rest of the network. I think James has forged a very productive partnership with Network Rail and the Wales and Borders team at Network Rail. What I would be seeking to see as part of rail reform is some statutory reassurance that Wales is a partner in the railways network; not just a consultee, not somebody who you write to every now and again when you're going to do something to us. It must be a joint and, in my view, statutory obligation on the part of Great British Railways to involve us and properly reflect what it is that Wales needs.

And would that extend to funding as well, in terms of getting our fair share?

The money that's been secured at the moment, I think we need to regard that as a down payment. I think that's a great start, and there's lots we can do with that money, and I think the job now is to get the money released and get it in the ground so that people actually start to benefit from it. But I do think that the money that is available—and I did touch on it a moment ago—on electrification, there are different ways to electrify the railway. What we've never had here is a four- or five-year and then another five-year plan and strategy for rail. You need certainty of funding for that, and I think we should be pitching for that.

The obligation on us, on the other hand, is to produce business cases that demonstrate the benefit of that investment for the economy and productivity and all of the other outcomes that we're seeking to achieve—access to housing and jobs—and then we make our pitch. I think what we should be aiming for is that strategic view of how the railway network will be delivered, including electrification, including the delivery of all the benefits that are set out in the Network North Wales plan and extend that across the entire country. So, I'm optimistic that, with the money that we've got to get going, we can demonstrate real benefits for that money that's going into the ground. Once we produce that evidence, I think that will unlock other conversations that we can't currently have.

The other thing, Chair, if I may, is that I think connecting up Holyhead to Hull is a really big element of this. The travel-to-work area in north Wales in particular—. I think the combined might of all of the economic and social cases that we're able to put together and argue collectively as well will also unlock things. I think the creation of a mayoralty in Cheshire and Warrington next year is very significant, because you will have a single point of political accountability for the first time ever in these adjacent areas, where we could also have more strategic discussions about the way in which the railways flow. I really think we need to get more strategic on it.

Indeed. I was going to ask you as well about equity of investment across Wales. One understands that resource very often gravitates to the more populous parts of any country, but there are other parts of Wales sometimes that feel that they don't get their fair share. I'm not just necessarily thinking urban and rural—you touched on it maybe a little bit there with the line to Hull. There's a feeling that there may be a disparity between investment in the east of Wales compared to western parts of Wales. How would you respond to that?

I understand why that's felt, and we need to rectify it. Bus franchising is a classic example of where we can give real evidence that this will deliver benefits to every part of Wales, including the west. I think, again, that's one of the reasons why I want to take the board on the road, to really get a deeper appreciation of all of that.

If I think about my experience in greater Manchester, it's easy to think about greater Manchester as just the metropolis, the centre thing. If you go to Oldham or Rochdale, it's very rural. Half of Oldham is rural. Also, there are 10 towns and cities in greater Manchester outside the city centre, and I've made it my business to make sure that the transport plan supports growth plans for all 10 of those local authority areas—Bury, Rochdale, Tameside, you name it—because transport needs to enable change in each of those areas.

I think we need to apply a similar energy to demonstrating that we get that in Wales as well. I take the point, it's not just rural versus urban, but we'll be out on the road, understanding that and making sure that all of our services—. The Traws services, Chair, are, again, another classic example of where that's enabling us to make connections between places that we can't currently do with rail, and possibly won't ever do with rail.

Yes, quite. Very finally from me, you were asked earlier about the challenges over the next five to 10 years, maybe some of the priorities as you see them for the next period. You referenced design of the organisation in your answer. I know Transport for Wales has been given rail and then buses and then active travel and then electric charging points for vehicles, et cetera. It's all been very incremental. I don't want to put words in your mouth, and I know you'll tell me if I do, but was there a hint there of maybe some sort of reorganisation? Not at a huge scale, necessarily, but were you suggesting that maybe the design of the organisation needs to be looked at in terms of accommodating all of that?

I think an evolution, Chair. I think that's inevitable, given the different responsibilities, which demand different skills and demand resources, probably, to be moved around to different things. But, to be honest, I relish Transport for Wales taking on these other obligations, because I think it will make us better at advising Government on what to do next. If things were happening over here outwith the purview of Transport for Wales, I think that would make it more difficult to bring it all together. If we are serious, and I think we are, and we will deliver it, one network, one timetable, one team delivering that, it's inevitable that these things come our way.

I think what will also happen with bus franchising is—and I'm not saying this is great organisational change, it's just another consideration—we will rapidly see how important the road network is to an efficient bus service, and co-ordination of roadworks, for example. All of these things will be flushed out as a result of these things coming our way. I've lived and breathed it for a long time, and I think I can help James and the team roll with that. But I wasn't suggesting there's going be a massive—

No, and I was reticent to suggest that you were, but you did reference design of the organisation.

I just think it's inevitable, given that the world is changing around us.

But that tends to be more of a continuous process rather than a particular process that you would set in train.

That is the way I feel about it at the moment, yes.

Thank you. Are Members content? We're out of time, so can I sincerely thank you very much for the evidence that you've given us? We will, as we're required to do, report to the Cabinet Secretary, and then, obviously, the decision, regardless of what we say, frankly, is in his hands, but obviously we would hope to be able to play our part in helping support that decision.

Diolch yn fawr, Chair and Members.

Thank you so much. Diolch yn fawr iawn. As you leave us, we'll continue with our meeting.

There are papers to note under item 5. Are Members happy to note them collectively? Yes.

We'll look to move into private session.

In accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi) and (ix), I propose that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? I see that they are content. Thank you very much. We'll wait a few moments till we're in private.