Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee

Welcome back. We're continuing with our inquiry on 'Cymraeg for all?', and we're now taking evidence again. I'll ask our witnesses to introduce themselves for the record. I'll go to Gwyn first.

Good morning. I'm Gwyn Derfel. For almost two and a half years, I've been Welsh language manager with the Welsh Rugby Union.

Thank you, Gwyn. And Ian.

Ian Gwyn Hughes. I've been with the Football Association of Wales for some 12 years now, and am now responsible for promoting the FAW and culture.

Thank you. A very warm welcome to you both, and we’ll go straight to questions, if we may.

Could you just talk us through, in terms of festivals, eisteddfodau and cultural events and so on, what role do you think they play in promoting the Welsh language, particularly in low-density areas? Who would like to go first?

I have to say, since I started with the association, about 12, 13 years ago, the two organisations that were supportive, amongst the ones that were very supportive, of us, were the National Eisteddfod and the Urdd Eisteddfod, and they provided us with a platform. Because things weren’t as they are now; there was, perhaps, apathy towards the association, by the team and so on, towards supporters, on both sides. And we wanted, what would you say, some sort of quick fix with people in Wales, so that they could see that we felt that we were relevant, and that we were aware of what was happening in Wales. And we went to the Urdd Eisteddfod in Swansea. Gary Speed had just been appointed, and we went there for the whole week. Unfortunately, on the first day we went, everybody was leaving Swansea to go to Wembley, because there was a game against Reading in the play-offs, so perhaps that wasn’t the wisest decision. But it showed young people that we were aware of what was happening in terms of culture in Wales.

And then we went to the National Eisteddfod in Wrexham on the Friday with Gary, and there were 25,000 people there, and everybody wanted to do something with Gary and so on. But it worked both ways, I felt, because it showed that the association was, perhaps, aware of these cultural events in Wales, but it also showed, with somebody like Gary there, because we announced the squad to play against Australia there, —that the Welsh language, or the Eisteddfod, sorry, was relevant to non-Welsh speakers. So, it worked both ways. We benefited, because we were getting a profile, with so many people there, because, usually, people just came up and had a cup of tea and complained, but, this time, we had something positive to talk about, namely Gary. But I also felt, through the publicity—. Sky News Sports was following Gary on the day, and you don’t very often have them on the Eisteddfod field, so it was broadening the appeal. So, it was working both ways.

And we’ve tried to build on that over the years, with the sorts of festivals that are held across Wales, in areas where the Welsh language is stronger, and, of course, where it’s not as strong.

Diolch, Ian. A Gwyn.

In terms of the WRU, I think, we’ve been involved with community events at these events, providing lessons on passing a ball and so on. So, perhaps our presence, in the early years, was at the Urdd Eisteddfod, as Ian said, and perhaps we’ve less so in the National Eisteddfod, and particularly with Tafwyl, which is on our doorstep here. We’ve been involved in community activities, and, I think, in recent years, we have been trying to get more celebrities, so that things are more relevant. So, our former chair, Ieuan Evans, has been at the Urdd Eisteddfod. What worked superbly for us is that we took Dewi Lake to the Pontypridd Eisteddfod, which is exactly the kind of area I think you’re talking about, which is a very Welsh area, I'd say, having lived in the area for some years now. And just seeing young people’s recognition—and many of them had had free access to the field too, as local people, which I think is very important too—and seeing the relevance of someone like Dewi Lake, who would be the first to admit that his Welsh isn’t perfect, but his Welsh is far better than Dewi himself thinks, was just wonderful, and not doing anything specifically, just wandering around the Eisteddfod field. And then, I think, we provide something to the festivals, but we also get so much back from the festivals too, in seeing that the union is relevant to that younger generation of people.

Thank you for that. Do you think that it can be difficult, perhaps, to evaluate or measure the impact of some of these festivals and events on areas, particularly if we're looking at a feeling of positivity among those who can't speak the language yet, or who aren't confident, but who feel more of an ownership of the language? Do you have any idea about—? Are you aware of how it can be measured, or is that something that is just difficult to measure?

I do think it is quite difficult to measure, besides the response that you get instinctively from people of your presence. Usually it's very positive indeed. This weekend, for example; we have worked very closely with Tafwyl over the years, and rather than just trying to attract a player, as we have done in the past, what we're doing this time is offering a session on the relationship between mental health and well-being, the Welsh language and rugby clubs. So, we're trying to offer something different, and we're going to see what the response is to that, and then we'll make future decisions based on that. Last time the Eisteddfod was in north Wales, rather than a WRU stall, we had a Rygbi Gogledd Cymru stall, so we were trying to encourage people to engage more with the biggest team in north Wales.

So, I would emphasise that although the way that we treat the festivals differs from year to year depending on location, I do think that it is a great opportunity to engage with people. One of the things with Tafwyl that is different to the other festivals is that it's a free festival, so people are more likely to go to Coopers Field this weekend. I know that you can get free tickets to the Urdd Eisteddfod and the National Eisteddfod, but even if you're a competitor at the Urdd Eisteddfod you have to pay to enter the Eisteddfod. And that's not a criticism of the Urdd, but if you're a non-Welsh speaker and you happen to live in the south-east, you're thinking, 'Where am I going to go? Will I go to Tafwyl that's free of charge or will I go to the Urdd Eisteddfod, which costs £23 for an adult to enter?' We do need a bit more help perhaps if we want to attract those people who are in two minds as to whether they are going to have a go at attending a Welsh language festival.

Thank you for that. Ian, did you want to come in?

In terms of evaluation of the impact, in the past we took Ryan Giggs to the Eisteddfod in the Millennium Centre, Chris has been in Cowbridge, Rob Page went last year in Meifod. That was one of the final things he did for us. And the previous year in the Urdd Eisteddfod. And we've also learned that you can't just take the managers. Rhian Wilkinson has been, Gemma Grainger has been, Jayne Ludlow went. And doing things in the name of the association where we don't need those big names.

But when those big names go to these events, we've seen the response from young people to them, and they want autographs and they want to meet them. Everybody's been great. And I think what it does for those young people in these areas is that it shows that the Welsh language is relevant, is modern and confident. If they see the manager of a football team that's been successful in Europe and globally, I think they can relate to that and then perhaps they think, 'Oh, the Welsh language is something that is relevant and modern' and so on.

I can't measure what the impact is in terms of an increase in the number of Welsh language users, but I can see from the response of young people in an environment where the Welsh language is a natural language, and they see it outside the organisation, and they see it relevant to the managers of football in Wales—women and men—and I think they can relate to that. And if we can just see one person saying, 'Oh, right, the language is relevant to me—I'll use Welsh,' I think that is a success. That's how I would look at it.

Thank you. Gwyn wanted to come back in there, I think.

I was fortunate enough to work with Ian at the FAW for almost 12 years, and I think that one of the main things that I learnt as a result of Ian and the team's work, which included a number of non-Welsh speakers, is I think they made a number of non-Welsh speakers feel that the Welsh language was relevant to them through their activities. And I think that what Ian said in terms of making the language relevant is one of the things that I've done in my work with the WRU.

With the stadium, every artist or every event that's happening here, we offer them a free service. For example, Pink accepted our invitation for a bilingual press release. Coldplay did an environmental video that was entirely bilingual. We provided Welsh lessons to Chris Martin and to Taylor Swift. If we're saying that the Welsh language is irrelevant, the fact that Taylor Swift spoke Welsh in the stadium was seen and heard 13.28 billion times across the globe. So, for people who say that young people aren't interested in the Welsh language, then I think that those examples do actually disprove that.

Well, that's very exciting. Thank you very much to both of you. We'll move to Mick.

Thank you. You've partly answered some of the things I wanted to ask about, which is really about the way in which Welsh is increasingly becoming normalised within sport. And of course, over the last 30, 40 years there has been a very dramatic transformation. There's almost no comparison between going to an event in the early 1970s as opposed to going to an event now, and I think that that's very important.

There's a lot of talk about soft power and the way in which, for example, sport and language is also part of integrating into a broader economic strategy, social strategy, selling Wales—what is unique about Wales, what is unique about the identity, and so on. For example, the FAW have, obviously, the partnership with the Arts Council of Wales, Gŵyl Cymru Festival and so on.

To what extent is there sufficient integration with all of those other aspects of the economy, strategy, the Welsh Government and so on when events are taking place, and to what extent is the strategy now about normalising the use of, I suppose, bilingualism—whichever language you want to use, the ability for that to become normalised within the activities and the events that you're involved in? Just a little bit about that. I know that you started talking about that, but just a little bit more about how you see that progressing and how you're measuring the success of it.

You can answer in either language.

I became more aware of that for the first time in 2016 in France, when football, culture, language, history, tradition—people wanted to know about us. They could see that we could play football, and then we had this platform. That's one thing that football hadn't had, differently to rugby, was that international platform to sell Wales and to sell Welsh football. And we were fortunate to have it in 2016—nine years ago, now, I'm not saying—but unfortunately COVID came and then Qatar was different. But it has enabled us to work with the Government and so on more than we'd ever done before, because we were on the international stage.

When you went to these events, I felt that there was greater interest from the press across Europe in your press conferences and they were asking about the meaning of 'Gorau chwarae cyd chwarae', for example. They wanted to know more about our language, they wanted to know more about our culture and wanted to learn more about us. And when you're talking about normalising bilingualism, there were 24 languages across the Euros, because every nation had its own language, and the Welsh language was one of them.

And I have to say that I've never felt more comfortable in my Welsh identity than when I was there, and I haven't felt as comfortable since then, because it was just normal—multilingualism, bilingualism, it was all natural. It wasn't an issue here and an issue there, why are we doing this; everything was normal. Perhaps they are more willing on the continent to accept bilingualism and multilingualism, I don't know.

We were talking about normalising the use of the Welsh language. When I worked in the BBC, we used to have press conferences, and if anyone spoke Welsh, they would ask, 'Well, does anyone want a Welsh language interview?', and it would be done in a different room. Now, we do it on the main stage in front of everyone and the Welsh language comes first. So, everyone in the room hears the Welsh language and sees that we have our own language and our own culture.

I think that getting to those finals was valuable for Wales, not just for the football team but for the Government, too, economically and for all sorts of different reasons, in terms of selling ourselves and who we are. And that collaboration in the lead-up to Qatar—I know it didn't happen on the field, but the collaboration in the lead-up to Qatar between the Welsh Government, the FAW, the arts council and so on and different literary organisations and cultural organisations was excellent and showed, when we all come together, what can be achieved. I hope that that answers your question.

Thank you very much.

The figures show that the younger generation are more likely to consider themselves Welsh rather than British, and I think that a lot of that comes down to the fact that they have their national heroes, whether on the football field or the rugby field. In terms of our collaboration specifically with the Welsh Government, we've been fortunate in the last two years that the centre for learning Welsh have offered lessons to over 100 members of staff. Jasmine Joyce-Butchers, Alisha Joyce-Butchers, Kayleigh Powell and Abbie Fleming from the women's team have taken advantage of the service that the Welsh Government are investing in. And also, I know that the FAW have taken advantage of an Arfor grant scheme that Mentera was operating on behalf of the Welsh Government.

Again, just to make the Welsh language more relevant, what we did was go to rugby clubs and ask, 'What support do you need specifically with the Welsh language?' We held 16 events, which included discussing the subjects that I mentioned at Tafwyl, namely mental well-being, which was well received, using social media through the medium of Welsh. We used the company Siml to help us with that. One of the clubs asked about the menopause, and so, for the first time ever, we did a Welsh language course on the menopause, and there were 40 women present in Bala Rugby Club. So, if we want to make the language relevant, we, as a governing body, and the Government, have to be relevant in people's daily lives, and that is what I think we are trying to do now within the WRU.

That completes my questions. Thank you very much.

Thank you. We'll move now to Gareth.

Thank you, Chair. Good morning, everybody. I'd like to cover grass-roots sport, if I may, and I'd like to understand how the FAW and indeed the WRU are supporting grass-roots clubs, players and coaches to develop and use their Welsh language skills.

Who wants to go first?

I'll go first for a change, if you want, IG. When I came to the rugby union, I was pleasantly surprised at the amount of Welsh that was used, but now we produce a quarterly newsletter that's bilingual. For those who aren't confident in the Welsh language, we have lanyards with basic terms that help people to use the Welsh language.

We have worked with Radio Cymru 2 so that announcements are on the speakers in every club and those can also be made bilingual, so that option is available to everybody. And we use more and more of the Welsh language on social media. I think we have used the same sort of principle as Ian: rather than having the Welsh language and English language completely separate, what we're doing is using Welsh language terms, even Welsh language idioms, and providing the main body of the message in English.

So, it's completely normal now that announcements on our social media platforms are bilingual. And in the World Cup two years ago, a Welsh message, I think, was the second most viewed message. The most viewed message, believe it or not, was when we congratulated Argentina for beating us. So, it was a Spanish message that got the main response, but the Welsh message was very close to it.

Thanks, Gwyn. I'd just like to ask about grass roots specifically in terms of how that might be localised across different parts of Wales and the role within that in terms of communities, and perhaps lower density areas of Welsh speakers, and how that's enhanced through the work of the WRU.

The one thing that we keep mentioning today is normalising, isn't it? Registration for every player, coach and volunteer in Wales—we've changed that recently, so that's available, which, again, means that everybody has that choice. We have worked on a pilot scheme with the Welsh Government and Carmarthenshire County Council. What we were trying to do, in an area that has been a challenge, where the social use of Welsh was declining—. Although the initial tag courses are available to be taught through the medium of Welsh, the next step up isn't, so we're working with Carmarthenshire County Council to ensure that that second step is available, but then we need to implement those courses. So, we do have work to do.

Our theory here is that, if you teach people through the medium of Welsh right at the start, then coaches tend to stay with the same team throughout. So, that's what we're trying to do. And as I previously mentioned, the Arfor courses—we delivered 16 face-to-face courses and supplementary video content, giving those clubs in those areas covered by the Arfor project, the opportunity to have whatever course they wanted to be delivered. And I'm not sure if now is a time to divulge a couple of successes from that, or if you'd rather me speak about them later, I will gladly do so—

Yes, you're welcome to do so now.

The one thing that sticks in my mind was: great, we went to clubs who have promised to increase their social media output in Welsh. One club with their governance—they checked their governance following a Welsh language course, and they hadn't engaged with the English language option. They found out that the people who were on their board and their volunteers would be liable for any losses. So, by doing this course in Welsh, we've actually safeguarded the future of that club. With a mental health project, we went to this one place and there was one gentleman who had lost both his brothers to suicide, and he spoke in the meeting, and we asked at the end, privately, 'Had this course been in English, would you have attended?' And he said, 'I would have attended, but I would not have had the courage or the confidence to have spoken about it.' So, if we're ever thinking that the power of the Welsh language isn't immense, then that's an example that completely blows it out of the water.

Thanks, Gwyn. Ian, did you want to come in on this?

This is a very interesting question from Gareth. It works both ways for us. Just to give you some background, one of the reasons that we take our managers around Wales—and I mentioned that we had a question and answer session with Gary Speed, Chris Coleman, Ryan Giggs, Rob Page, and we're doing it now with Craig—is because it's important for us as an association to understand that, although we're one nation, perhaps what makes one feel Welsh in Newport may be different to somebody in Aberystwyth, in Colwyn Bay or in Wrexham and so on. So, we have that understanding.

And perhaps, over the years, if I'm honest, this has been a weakness of ours: how do we transfer what happens on the international stage, where if someone comes to one of our matches, they clearly see that wholly Welsh or bilingual ethos? How can we convey that on the ground? And perhaps that's been a weakness that we've had, because we've focused so much on our national sides over the years—that we haven't done enough. Perhaps that has started to change now, over the past two or three years, where there's far more investment in resources and in the game.

But I think it is a question—. I was just going to ask: are you talking more about the coaching of children through the medium of Welsh, or just the Welsh ethos around the clubs?

Either—both.

Two of the clubs that I'm aware of that tweet through the medium of Welsh, or consistently bilingually, are Newport and Colwyn Bay—two clubs you wouldn't expect to see doing so, perhaps, which is fantastic, of course, if we can have that impact.

In terms of coaching, I'm aware that—. We took Craig recently to Pwllheli, and there were 150 children there, and then we had a Q&A session at Neuadd Dwyfor. There were 400 people there, and we always insist that it's young people and families that are there, and the ethos was entirely Welsh in terms of the club. But, of course, if you go to other clubs in other areas—is the language medium Welsh?

My son is a football coach, and I speak to him about this, and I ask him, 'How do you cope if you have a group of boys and girls, and there are 16 in the squad and two are Welsh-speaking, for example, and they're more comfortable in Welsh, how do you deal with that?' And he said, 'Well, I'll take them to one side just to give them direct messages, and say, "Try and do this or try and do that", so that they feel comfortable.' There's a tennis club in Penarth, where I live, and there are 10 in the class there. Eight of them are in a Welsh-medium school—Pen y Garth—and two are not, and yet the training is through the medium of English.

So, I think the solution is to train—train more people to coach through the medium of Welsh, and I think we've started to do that now. We have had very successful coaching courses over the years, and they were established by Osian Roberts, and Dave Adams is now taking them over, but perhaps not enough has been done through the medium of Welsh. And I think that in terms of coaching, the answer is to have more coaches at all levels to make children and young people feel comfortable, because if they go to a club for the first time and they're not comfortable in the language used—if someone is coaching through the medium of English and they're Welsh speakers, and perhaps speak English but aren't comfortable—they might become shy, they might lose their way, lose confidence and so on. So, I think a lot of the solution to this is to have more coaches that can speak Welsh.

In terms of the ethos of clubs, what I would say is that it's a matter of collaboration—we're starting to do more of this—working with individual clubs, because, ultimately, it's the volunteers who are the people who are running the clubs. They know their areas best. I don't think it's up to the association to go in and say, 'Do this and do that', because every area is different. But we can work together and say, 'Right, this isn't as Welsh speaking an area as another, so how can we have an influence on that and bring more of the Welsh language in?' It doesn't mean people having to speak Welsh, but using Welsh-language terminology and even small things like on social media, saying, 'Llongyfarchiadau on your win', or 'Diolch' and so on. I think that is the way to do that. I would tell Gareth that it's something that we haven't done enough of over the years, but it is something that is one of our main focuses at the moment to develop in coming years.

Diolch, Ian. And you touched on it there slightly in terms of working with partners in collaborative working—how do, obviously, yourself and the WRU work with partners, maybe such as the Urdd, and are there any specific examples of how that's done to enhance provision in those sporting activities and respective sports?

From our perspective, the work that we've been doing—. We do have an unofficial partnership with the Urdd, which has been very positive over the years, and what we did was to support them by taking our managers to the Urdd Eisteddfodau. I mentioned earlier the Eisteddfod in Cardiff and in Swansea. We had hoped to take Rhian Wilkinson to the Eisteddfod in Margam this year, but the women's team were traveling to Italy, so that didn't happen. But in the previous years, we took Rob Page to the Urdd Eisteddfod. We've also launched our squad announcements in Llangrannog, and in Glan-llyn, with Gemma Grainger, Ryan Giggs and Rob Page. So, we've supported in that way.

There was a close partnership with the Urdd in working towards Qatar, with the jamboree and the song for schools. Again, we worked for the Euros. The Urdd has been very supporting in terms of supporting us in organising free buses to take supporters to women's matches. So, there is close collaboration there. I understand that the Urdd and the WRU work differently. The WRU rugby competition across Wales is held with the Urdd. We've held some discussions with the Urdd as to having something similar for football, particularly as we're celebrating 150 years next year. But up to now, no decision has been made on that. But we do have a close working relationship with the Urdd.

In the Margam Eisteddfod, we had the bucket hat, the women's shirt and so on on display. I have to say that every partnership is a two-way street, isn't it, and they've been very supportive of us in all aspects of our work.

Thank you, Ian. Gwyn, did you want to come in?

On the seven-a-side competition on Pontcanna fields a few months ago, I can't remember the exact figure, but I can get you the figure later, but there were thousands and thousands of young people from Wales playing there. The messaging was in the Welsh language. Of course, not every player spoke Welsh, but again it shows that the Welsh language can lead the way on something like that.

The partnership with our community team here, led by Geraint John with the Urdd and with Gary Lewis, is something that's very valuable to us, because not only does it tie in with our strategy because of language and culture, it also prepares players for the future, and keeps players with an interest in the sport. So, the partnership with the Urdd is a key one for us as the WRU.

And I think our partnership with the FAW is important as well. We have collaborated on videos to promote the Welsh language with the two captains, Ben Davies and Dewi Lake, at the time. So, we are pulling in the same direction—it's not a competition between us. And I do think that the union has some things to learn from the association in tying the language and culture together. Ian mentioned press conferences in different iconic settings in Wales. That's something that I welcome very much, perhaps in terms of us possibly using more Welsh on our website. But it’s not a competition, but something that we can collaborate on and push ourselves to improve the provision further.

Thank you very much. Just finally, are there any examples of good practice that can be shared where language has increased due to provision and work and efforts in this regard? And how, indeed, would they be communicated with each other so that examples of those good practices can be shared and act as an inspiration to other bodies that you might work with?

Well, social media stats would be the obvious one. As I've said, Welsh language stats in the world cup received more views than when Warren Gatland came back to coach Wales. The feedback that we've had from the general public regarding our use of Welsh has been unilaterally positive. Noah Hathaway, our former social media manager, in the time he was with us, said the thing that gave him greatest pride was the positive reaction that our social media, by increasing our use of Welsh, had received. Noah himself isn't a Welsh speaker, but he engaged with it, so you need key individuals to have that positive impact. As Ian mentioned, you wouldn't have expected Colwyn Bay and Newport County to be two of the clubs that use the language most, but that was down to key individuals. So, if you give those people the tools and, more than anything, you give those people the confidence to use it, then—. Ben Davies, the footballer, he got a lot of abuse for tweeting in Welsh, didn't he, Ian? But that ultimately turned into something positive, because people said, 'Well, no, this is our language, this is who we are, this is what we do.' So, I genuinely believe that, over the last five to 10 years, the confidence and national identity of feeling Welsh is actually something that I haven't experienced in my lifetime before. So, although there are challenges ahead, I'm genuinely enthused and confident about what we can do in the future.

Diolch, Gwyn. Ian.

There is a way of doing this, I think. And I think they way—. It isn't something that you can stuff down people's throats, you have to do it in a positive way where people see it as being natural. But I think normalisation of the use of the Welsh language—. The power of social media—. I remember in France in 2016, we tweeted in Welsh, Breton, French, English, Russian, Slovenian, and so on—whatever country we were playing against—and that demonstrated that that was the way to normalise the language. And also just introducing the word 'diolch' on T-shirts.

I think one of the main successes is not so much—. Neither the FAW nor the WRU are going to—. Our role is not, perhaps—. Well, it's not just us who are going to increase the number of Welsh speakers, but that we show that the Welsh language can be presented to everyone—we can introduce some words. Everyone understands now when the words 'diweddariad carfan'— an update on the squad—come up, and everyone's dreading that because they know someone has pulled out. Perhaps no-one knew, before 10 years ago, what 'diweddariad carfan' meant.

I think the greatest success is to create greater awareness of the Welsh language. It's not just about growth, it's about awareness. I remember Chris Coleman, when the Government launched the target of a million Welsh speakers, down the road from where I am here, he had a T-shirt saying, 'I don't speak Welsh, but it's part of who we are, it's part of our history, so respect it'. So, perhaps, gaining respect and so on—.

Talking about confidence in the Welsh language, I was in Pwllheli recently, as I mentioned, with Craig, and there was an audience and an atmosphere—. They put on the evening, and I hold a three-quarter of an hour Q&A with Craig, and then Craig talks for one, two or three hours, however long he wants, and then we take questions from the audience. And the young people in the audience in Pwllheli were all asking their questions in Welsh, and I've never experienced that in 13 years of doing this. So, for me, that was a huge success, that these young people now felt that they were sufficiently confident in front of—. It's daunting enough to ask a question in any circumstance, but for young people, in front of 400 people, to be asking a question of the national manager in Welsh, I thought, 'Wow, this really is normalising the use of the Welsh language', and I think that's one of the successes. I accept that that is in a more Welsh-speaking area, but having said that, the language is still under threat in those areas too, so it's important that everyone is included in this. That just showed me that this young boy had the confidence to ask a question in Welsh, and that was a huge success, in my view.

Thank you. Gwyn wanted to come back in, I think.

Yes, just quickly. I think that there are two things that I would like to add. It's important to have the formal support. Our Welsh language policy, and what we do from day to day, wouldn't be as strong unless we'd had support from the Welsh Language Commissioner's office and the Cynnig Cymraeg process. I think that that is a further important step in terms of providing leadership for companies to use the Welsh language and to normalise it. I think that, with the help of the commissioner, we were only the second sports body, two years ago, to have that. So, that needs to be strengthened.

Also, I think that it's important that the Welsh language that is used is understandable. One thing that we haven't spoken about at all yet is AI, for example. I know about one sports body that has a completely bilingual website, but it's gone through the AI machine. So, as a Welsh speaker it's not something that I would feel especially comfortable with. It wasn't easy to read, as it were. So, I think that there needs to be work in that area, to ensure that the Welsh terminology is simple and understandable, so that people, possibly, do use the Welsh language, and that Welsh speakers do choose to use specifically Welsh websites.

We have an officer that's working on that within the WRU currently. If there are any schemes that the Government would like us— and I'm sure that the FAW would like that too—. We'd be interested in creating some sort of database with regard to AI and sports, so that the machine churns out things that are relevant to the audience, rather than literal translations that quite often are wrong.

Thank you, Gwyn.

Thank you.

Great. We'll move on to Lee.

I just want to ask about the legacy left by major Welsh language events. A lot of effort is put into an eisteddfod in creating local momentum and building up committees, and so on, but there's less of an emphasis on the next steps after the event is finished. It's whether or not you think that that is something that should be rectified and, in terms of a legacy plan for an area where there's been a major event, the role that your organisations and your networks could have in making sure that those building blocks are then extended.

Well, I do think that there is scope to develop that. For example, we did quite a bit in Pontypridd last year. Now, we didn't have a stall—we had intended to take Craig Bellamy there as his first official appearance last year, but his wife had a baby, so we thought it may be better for him to stay at home with her rather than go to Pontypridd, but he did want to experience the Eisteddfod.

We did have events and conversations in Pontypridd, and then what happened is that, once the Eisteddfod was over, we were straight into games. We had two games—Craig's first two games. Your mind turns to that, rather than us as an association—and I'm sure this would be true of the union too—thinking, 'Okay, we've contributed to the Eisteddfod. What's the next step in that area?', particularly in an area like Pontypridd, where the Eisteddfod had a great location and everything was fantastic about the event for Welsh speakers and non-Welsh speakers. We need to think about where we can develop more there, specifically, and that's one thing that we haven't done.

So, clearly, I read and hear about the impact of the Eisteddfod on an area. But, for us as an association, perhaps we should be part of that legacy process and say, 'Well, this is what we did in the lead-up, but what are we doing after the event?' We haven't done that. As I say, we do move on immediately to the next project, because it's a small group of us working on it, and so we'd be moving on to our next event. But, certainly, there is scope for that within these events, be it an eisteddfod or any other festival, where we could be invited to be part of some sort of legacy committee, to continue the work and to build on that week of Welshness within that particular area.

Gwyn. If we could—

[Inaudible.]

Sorry, Gwyn. You weren't unmuted.

One lesson that I learned by the end of my time at the FAW, and which is also very clear in the union, is the value of data. Very often, if you go to an event, is the data collected from the people attending it, to make them aware of what's happening afterwards? One of our clubs went to an European competition, and there were 1,200 people there. Then, in the first game of the season, there were 300 watching. I was thinking where have those 800 gone. Have they been invited to come back? Have they been invited to another event?

Clearly, I know there are restrictions on data collection, but if people are offered to provide their data, and it shows that they have an interest to continue engaging with the Welsh language and Welsh language events after these main events have left an area, then I think that perhaps is an easy way. At least we then know who we're targeting.

Okay. Diolch.

Thank you. There are just a couple of things that I'd like to ask at the end. Firstly, to what extent do you think you are in an unique situation in terms of being able to promote the Welsh language? Because, on one level, as both of you have mentioned, young people, people of all ages, can see their heroes either speaking Welsh or showing some sort of acknowledgement of the importance of the language to them, whether they speak it or not. So, you have it at that level, where they're on some sort of pedestal, but also, at the same time, in terms of things that are happening on a day-to-day basis, at a grass-roots level, in some of those small clubs as well. To what extent do you think that is unique, in that you have the opportunity to convey the message that the language is something that people's heroes speak, and that it is something that is international, that can be seen in Qatar, for example, in terms of rugby and football, but also in the community? Does Gwyn want to go first, as he's not on mute?

I'll talk about the international level first. I don't know if you saw the video with the Japanese ambassador to Britain in the stadium. That was wonderful. As Wales is travelling to Japan over the summer, we have plans to go out there and promote Welsh culture in Japan over the summer. So, that's important.

We are in quite a unique position, as you mentioned, because we do have these heroes. We did a video—it went out around a month ago, I think—and we had the two captains, Dewi Lake and Hannah Jones, discussing their different relationships with the Welsh language. Hannah comes from the Brynamman area, which is a traditionally Welsh-speaking area, and Dewi comes from the Maesteg area. So, we did that. We are fortunate that we have that opportunity.

I think we also have to recognise that S4C is a very important partner for us here at the WRU. You'll notice that the YouTube channel attracts a fifth of the audience between 18 and 24. The audience for rugby tends to be older. I think that we as sports bodies do have to acknowledge that we are on a journey with broadcasters, and the way that our messages are delivered to our audience is changing, and we as organisations have to be open to moving with the times in that regard.

Thanks, Gwyn. Ian.

We are fortunate that we're a popular sport, not just in Wales but internationally. We do have that international platform. I do think that young people like to identify themselves with things that are successful like that, and we do have heroes like Gareth Bale, who's now retired, and Jess Fishlock. Now we have Sorba Thomas, as we saw the other night, or Brennan Johnson, and so on. People do want to identify with those heroes, but not just at an international level. I think we've also found, in terms of the Gŵyl Cymru Festival, where we travel around Wales, sometimes we use the managers, sometimes we just go as the FAW and link football and local culture at local events.

When I started with the FAW, I think it was an organisation—. Gwyn will know, from the time when we were both in the BBC, that the FAW wasn't particularly respected; it was derided. I think there is respect now for the FAW, and I do think that we have a role in leading because of what we have to offer and because of the platform that we have. I don't know if I'd be here today doing this if it wasn't for the success in the Euros and the world cup, because that counts for a lot. It gave us a platform that wasn't there before.

I do think that we are fortunate because of who we have and what we have, and also the main thing, the international matches, particularly the men's games—more than 30,000 people in the stadium and nobody could argue that it isn't Welsh in terms of its atmosphere. It's not antagonistic in any way; it brings everyone together, whatever their politics, their language, their background. They come together for that time to support the national team, and our intention is that we are relevant 365 days of the year, not just six times a year in football matches. So, I do think that we have a role to play, but I think we're also in a fortunate position and we could work with many other bodies and provide support to them, because 'together stronger', 'gorau chwarae cyd-chwarae'—that is relevant beyond football too.

Thank you, Gwyn—sorry, thank you, Ian. It's because your middle name is 'Gwyn'. Gwyn Derfel.

Two events on the global stage are happening before the end of the year. Obviously, I'd like to wish the women's team the best in the Euros in terms of football, but also the Rugby World Cup is taking place. So, we've got two events there with support, and that I'm sure that the impact on promoting the Welsh language could be strengthened further. You were asking earlier, 'Are we in a unique position?' Yes, we are, to an extent, because we have the platform of these main events, and, as it happens, we have the women's rugby and football teams performing on the global stage within these next few months. So, it's another opportunity for us to normalise the Welsh language further, which is what we're all trying to do.

Thank you very much. Was there anything that you'd hoped to raise this morning that hasn't come up in questions? We've been very broad in our discussion, but was there anything else that you wanted to say? Ian.

No, I can't think of anything else. Nobody's discussed Wrexham, but there we go. It's the one thing that perhaps I had hoped to cover, but that story is a great story, and that's put Wales on the map too, hasn't it?

If I could just add one thing, I was invited to an event that the FAW and the University of Wales Trinity Saint David had organised, and that covered the use of minority languages within football, and there were excellent lessons to be learned there—very different lessons. You had Barcelona football club, for example, which operates entirely through the medium of Catalan, but what I found interesting was the commercial opportunities in using the Welsh language. Heerenveen from Friesland in the Netherlands suggested that, in relation to the 50 per cent of their supporters who can speak the language, those were the shirts and merchandise that sold best because they were offering something unique. As a union, we've started to brand things with 'Cymru', and the anthem has been on the collar of one of our shirts. But, for people who see the Welsh language as an additional cost and a burden, 'Well, we can't do this and we can't do that', there are real commercial opportunities out there.

Again, this is where the commissioner's statistics were of great help to me in my work, in demonstrating that using the Welsh language increased brand enhancement. Eighty four per cent of companies surveyed said that using the Welsh language strengthened their brand, and once I'd explained that to companies like Go.Compare and Vodafone, they strengthened their commercial campaigns and their advertising campaigns significantly. So, again, we need to change the attitude towards the Welsh language from being a 'nice to have'. It has to be central to what we do, and we have to sell the fact that there are commercial opportunities that can emerge from the use of the language too.

Thank you so much to both of you. May I thank you for the evidence this morning? It's been extremely useful and interesting. There will be a transcript of what's been said available for you to check that it's a fair reflection. Perhaps there'll be a couple of things we'd like to ask you in writing, but thank you very much for giving us your time today. We've really benefited from it this morning. Thank you.

Members, we'll take a short break until the next session. We'll wait to hear that we are in private session. Thank you again to our witnesses.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Good morning, and welcome back to the culture and Welsh Language committee. We now move on to another panel, and we continue with taking evidence in our inquiry on Cymraeg for all. We're looking forward to this session. I'll ask the witnesses to introduce themselves for the record and I'll go to Lis first.

Good morning. I'm Lis McLean, I'm chief officer for Menter Iaith Merthyr Tudful, and run the Soar centre and theatre in Merthyr.

Good morning. I'm Lowri Jones, chief officer of Menter Iaith Sir Caerffili.

Good morning. Maiwenn Berry, chief officer, Menter Iaith Fflint a Wrecsam.

Good morning. Osian Rowlands, chief executive, Menter Iaith Rhondda Cynon Taf.

Good morning. Catherine Stephens, head of Learn Welsh Glamorgan, University of South Wales.

Thank you very much. You're all very welcome. I'll go straight into questions. Not everyone has to answer every question, but do feel free to come in whenever you want to.

We're looking today specifically at the role of cultural events and major festivals in terms of promoting the Welsh language, especially in areas with a lower density of Welsh speakers. So what role do you think these major events and festivals have in that regard? Who would like to go first? Lowri.

Thank you very much. I'm happy to provide an overview and then we'll be able to add to that information as the session progresses. Thank you very much for the opportunity to discuss our work. Thank you to a number of you for supporting us during the year, not only in our events, but also discussing our wider services as well. So thank you very much for that opportunity.

Perhaps thinking specifically about festivals and events and some of our music events, the mentrau iaith hold those over the whole of Wales in general, and we have very good examples in the south-east. A number of you will be familiar with Party Ponty, Tafwyl, Ffiliffest, and then, further afield, Ogi Ogi Ogwr, Gŵyl Newydd in Newport, and then a number of mass events in the community happening quite regularly. These have developed as interventions, really, to provide more opportunities to use the Welsh language as a result of our intentional language planning to increase those opportunities.

They are collective events, lively events, with a high standard of music and different examples of music that entertain our community and create temporary Welsh spaces where communities have the experience of hearing the Welsh language. But they also provide a very visual platform to the language in our communities, quite often in areas where the Welsh language isn't seen or heard on a daily basis. So they have a key role in that regard.

In the areas where there's a low density of Welsh speakers, they're also an opportunity for those who speak Welsh, who are new speakers, who are learning Welsh, to know that speaking Welsh is the norm during the event and that they don't feel in the minority. That can happen, perhaps, in their everyday lives in general. So we feel that it is crucial that the speakers of a minority language have these experiences in their communities, and they also provide a wider context to their language and culture, helping them to feel less insular and make the language relevant and a fun thing in their local area.

These events and festivals provide a wide range of experiences, family activities, volunteering opportunities, they provide work to local people, practitioners and artists who want to provide services through the medium of Welsh, but they also empower communities to take responsibility, ownership and be a key part of arranging and organising and running events. And as I mentioned, we have an important role in this in supporting artists and practitioners who want to work through the medium of Welsh in their communities, but also a number of practitioners perhaps who are learning Welsh, and want to reach a new audience and broaden their work to provide through the medium of Welsh. So certainly it provides a boost to the sector in terms of the cultural workforce as well.

They are also very inclusive events and quite often the only opportunity during the year for families who speak Welsh, or where children speak Welsh and parents are learning the language, to meet other families in the same situation. And in many areas, parents have said that they're surprised to hear their children speak Welsh, because they're only used to hearing their children speak Welsh in the classroom. So it's a very special experience for them to see their children use the language naturally within these events and taking part in different activities, and see their personal connection with Welsh culture.

Thank you for that very comprehensive answer—that's very useful to us. I'll ask our witnesses, because there was a great deal included there—and we may go into more detail on some of those issues during the session—but was there anything that anyone wanted to add? Are there any further views or different views? You're welcome to make those comments now. Osian.

Just one thing that I'd like to mention, in addition to the family events, is that raising awareness within towns and areas where the event is staged is very important. Such things increase footfall in the village, the city or town where the event is staged, and that is crucially important. Then, of course, that creates activity and raises confidence within the workforce within those towns in using the Welsh language, particularly in our areas. We've often heard the sentence 'My Welsh isn't good enough'—we hear that every day. These events are crucially important to give people an opportunity to use the Welsh language skills that they have, and for them to know that that is fine, and that's crucially important.

The other thing that I'd like to say is that we provide a platform for people in our communities who perhaps don't feel that they can go to major national events, that they don't have that confidence. We run different projects in order to provide opportunities for everyone. We develop a workforce and artists, and provide them with that first opportunity on their own patch, and then hoping that they can go on to the next stage of their career.

Thank you for that. Catherine, did you want to come in, or have I imagined that? I thought I'd seen your hand. I apologise. Lis.

I just want to add that it's important to remember, in areas with this lower density, that Welsh events quite often are the way that people start to change their behaviour in terms of the language. I know from personal experience: my husband spoke Welsh, I hadn't spoken it for 17 years when I met him, but I wasn't willing to speak Welsh to him until we were in a Welsh space, where everybody else was using the language. We work with many people who have lost the language after school, or have lost their confidence with the language after school, and these events provide them with an opportunity to develop their language and to start speaking, and to feel safe.

That's important. Catherine wanted to come in on this as well, I think.

I agree with Lis. We teach new people every week, and staging these festivals provides them with an opportunity to use the Welsh language in a comfortable space, and they can attend with friends and practice their skills. Because learning a language isn't easy. Staging the Eisteddfod in Pontypridd, for example, just gave them an objective too—something to aim for to use the language.

I was just going to add very quickly too that it's important to remember that it's not just events that increase the use of the Welsh language. The activity around them, the preparations, that creates community activity that is broader than the one-day event in July, or whenever. The weeks of preparation, the engagement work, with businesses, with schools, with the community more broadly, also adds to the activity and the opportunities to use the Welsh language, even to see the Welsh language, particularly in areas with a lower density of Welsh speakers.

Thank you for that, Maiwenn. That's one of the subjects we'd like to return to, Osian, if that's okay. We'll come back in more detail in a little while, so we'd be very keen to hear what you've got to say on that as well, Osian.

May I ask, just quickly for my part, before we move on to the other Members, in terms of measuring that, how easy is it to measure it? Because some of these things, in terms of people's feeling towards the Welsh language, even if they can't speak the language themselves yet, but perhaps attending some of these events makes them feel more positive towards the language, that they feel they have more ownership of the language. How do you measure that, or are there some things that are exceptionally difficult to measure? I'll go to Lowri first, because she was a fraction of a second before you, Osian.

I think we'd all agree that it is challenging to measure that at times. But what I would say is that we do have a great deal of evidence from our own events of people who have had very positive experiences. As Lis mentioned, it's changed attitudes, changed behaviours, and has started journeys for many people for the first time, into, perhaps, learning Welsh, or returning to the Welsh language, or they've truly appreciated the journeys that their children are taking in relation to the Welsh language, and have seen the value in using the Welsh language at a community level, not just around the school. And to return to Maiwenn's point too, they've then decided to join in more activities, or even establish their own activities too.

So, we do have a great deal of anecdotal evidence. We all gather evidence during events. But I would also agree that there's an opportunity to do more evaluation work in order to truly record the value of these events. That would require more resource and more capacity in order to do that effectively. But as the mentrau, we would welcome the opportunity to actually package this evidence more effectively and to share it more widely then too.

Great. Thank you very much for that. Osian, did you want to come in?

To endorse what Lowri was saying there, there is evidence. In 2023, we commissioned a television company to make a showreel of Parti Ponty, and there's one quote from somebody who doesn't speak Welsh saying:

'I just live down the road in Pontypridd. I don't speak Welsh. This is the best thing you can do to promote the Welsh Language.'

And that quote has been used many times by us. But what it does do, it's a free event, it presents the Welsh language to people on their doorstep, and perhaps people will come across the Welsh language for the first time after having a break of five to 10 years from the Welsh language, and they come across it and say, 'You know what? This is okay. I'm enjoying this.' They have a good time. That is so important. And, of course, we're taking the language to people for free. They don't have to pay to come to the event. That's crucial.

And perhaps the important thing we're seeing as well is that we're bringing in people who are on their linguistic journey at a similar stage, on the same sort of level, and so there's a level playing field there, whereas perhaps somebody like me is the worst person to speak to somebody who's just starting on their Welsh language journey—my name is Osian; I come from a Welsh speaking family, and I speak Welsh confidently. But it brings people who are on that journey, who feel a little bit vulnerable or scared, it brings them together in a leisurely way. There's no pressure, and that's crucial. And also they're in a space that they feel comfortable in, and that is very important.

Diolch, Osian. Lis.

We do measure impact, and we've had some support from Government in the past to have a model as to how we can do that. But there are certain things that some of us have done that are more intensive. For example, I had a social impact assessment and an economic impact assessment done on Soar some years ago, and I could see from that how much our community benefited through the centre. By having this service through the medium of Welsh, the Welsh language had regenerated the area, and we could actually see that the centre had contributed £1.3 million to the broader local economy during that year. So, that does happen on an annual basis. So, if anyone tells us—. We got £1.4 million to restore the centre to be a theatre and so on, but we contribute around £1 million per annum to the local economy. So, measuring impact is very important, not only in terms of language, but also in terms of well-being and the economy too.

One project that we actually established that really worked well in measuring impact was our y Consortiwm Cymraeg project, where we worked with other theatres and Theatre na nÒg, and we established the project. It was an excellent project that was funded by the arts council, and we looked at it, before starting on the journey of creation, to think about what linguistic impact we wanted to have through the project. Now, very rarely do you have the time to stop and to think, 'Well, what exactly are we trying to achieve here?' And we worked with learners and so on, and I tracked it and wrote a paper for the arts council on the impact on language behaviours. We worked with learners before this was established to try and understand what the barriers were and what prevented them from coming to live theatre. It was very interesting work, which has laid a foundation as to how we operate now. And I do feel that, in the lower density areas, we do need more research. We do need to work on measuring this impact to truly understand where we need to invest. I'd like to see a researcher working with me in the menter iaith and to see us go through that process.

Diolch, Lis. Gwnaf i fynd nôl at Osian—yn gryno, os yn bosib.

Perhaps one other area where we can measure impact is—. We're talking here about the large festivals, and the mentrau—. We have small festivals throughout the year, such as Miri Mawr, Christmas and so forth. But also what we're seeing is that we're now being drawn in locally to advise other events perhaps that are English medium only, but now want to increase use of the Welsh language. And what we're succeeding in doing now is turning events into bilingual events. We've got many examples. In Rhondda Cynon Taf, we've worked with Pontypridd Town Council, where, now, they have a presenter who can speak Welsh and English as well, and so the event is bilingual as simply as that.

We support Rhondda Arts Festival in Treorchy, Gŵyl Morfydd, new festivals, such as Gwŷl Mabon in Treorchy, local eisteddfodau et cetera. And, as mentrau, we're supporting and advising these other events. And that, perhaps, is something that's difficult for us to show in terms of data, but the fact that these organisations that host events where maybe the posters are bilingual, but that's all the Welsh there is, are turning to us, as mentrau, for advice, that's a very positive step.

And perhaps these organisations are coming to us, as mentrau, in order to—. And they want to increase use of the Welsh language—so, they come and see what we're doing and think, 'I've had a good experience,' and they like what they see. And therefore, that's something positive that we can talk about in terms of the impact we have beyond, perhaps, families and individuals on a broader level in the county.

Thank you for that, Osian. We'll move to questions from Gareth.

Thank you, Chair. Good morning, everyone. Good afternoon, everyone—

—I should say now. With areas of fewer Welsh speakers—we were talking about low density areas—how effective and meaningful is community engagement before—I'm sorry—before a Welsh language and cultural event or festival, in your view, and, obviously, the experience in those communities we spoke about in Pontypridd or Wrexham, for instance? I'll be looking at either Osian or Maiwenn for those answers specifically, I think.

Osian.

From our experience, we had a very positive experience collaborating. We were one of the main partners of the Eisteddfod and we had a close relationship from the very outset. As it happens, I started in my role with menter iaith when the work was starting locally. And, in a way, we supported the Eisteddfod in engaging with the community, the pockets to look for, sharing information, local contacts, and, very often, we were able to advise and respond to queries or to refer them to the right place.

And perhaps the major role of the menter—. In the partnership—. I felt, in the journey towards the Eisteddfod, that maybe I was the junior partner in that partnership because the Eisteddfod could hit walls down and open doors that we couldn't open, as a small organisation, in the area. But then the expectation in terms of legacy falls to us, as a menter—and it's an important word that we always use in relation to the National Eisteddfod. And at us, then—. The Eisteddfod, of course, finishes its journey and moves on to the next area. And we had a number of successful events in RCT after the Eisteddfod. We had a volunteering fair to thank our volunteers and to congratulate them. Also, some 17 organisations came , where they wanted to increase the use of the Welsh language. Perhaps Welsh wasn't the main language of those organisations, but they did want to increase its usage. And we have seen organisations now making the Welsh language visible—wearing 'Dysgwr' lanyards or 'Cymraeg' lanyards. These are things that just didn't happen previously.

There was a lot of work done with businesses. I went out with one of the officials in the town of Pontypridd and we handed out over 120 'Welsh' or 'Learner' lanyards in Pontypridd the week before the Eisteddfod, something that wouldn't have happened 12 months earlier, when we wanted to run the 'Hapus i Siarad' campaign, which is a campaign between ourselves and the centre for learning Welsh in Pontypridd, and there weren't enough businesses. A year later, that has definitely changed.

We had business awards to thank and congratulate local businesses, which was very successful, and we've also developed a Welsh language fair locally, working with Learn Welsh Glamorgan, the council, the Eisteddfod and Ymbweru Bro to demonstrate the opportunities to people. So, people have come out of their shells, perhaps, and want to increase use of the Welsh language.

But what we've also seen is that—. In these new areas, it creates a new relationship between ourselves as a menter and individuals and communities. Because there are people that we perhaps hadn't seen before the Eisteddfod, but the interest is there. We saw this with the Eisteddfod choir. In the first rehearsal, over 400 people came and they wanted to sing in the Eisteddfod choir, which is one of the most traditional things in existence. And perhaps two thirds of the people in the room were non-Welsh speaking—they were learners, or didn't speak any Welsh at all—but not only did they want to be involved in the show, but they wanted to sing in the cymanfa ganu too, one of the most traditional things that we have. But being on that stage, singing in a choir, was something that was crucially important to them. And, again, as a menter, they've now come to us, they're engaging with us, and that partnership and that contact has been made, and we can continue with that journey.

Thank you, Osian. Before we move on, I think Heledd had a question.

Thank you. I am aware of time as well. Perhaps I'll come back in terms of legacy, but one of the things that we're looking at at the moment is before such events. So, it would be beneficial to know did you receive additional resource as mentrau iaith before a large festival or event in your area, or are you expected to do this work on top of what you're doing usually. And is there—? And I think perhaps I know that there isn't additional resource, from the facial expressions, but it would be good to know. But do you think that this is something that should be considered to ensure the greatest possible legacy?

Some of the facial expressions are saying a lot, without you having to say anything in words. I'll go briefly to Osian first.

Unfortunately, there was no additional resource for us as a menter either before or after the event, so, we were having to do this on top of our day-to-day activities. And we should note too that the same is true of the festivals. The day-to-day work happens, and we have to be specialists in health and safety, toilets, fencing and so on, in addition to our day-to-day activities. So, it's an additional pressure on the team. And we are a small team; every menter has a small core team. So, we would really appreciate having support before the event, but, more importantly for us, after the event. That would be crucial, because it is very challenging to maintain that momentum. We have tried to pick out the most positive impacts that we can have, but there is a very high risk of losing people very quickly as life returns to normal, if you like. That's a sentence I hear very often. So, certainly, any additional resource would be of great assistance to us.

Thank you for that. I'll go to Catherine and then to Lis. Catherine.

Before the Eisteddfod in Pontypridd, there was no support for us, but, following the Eisteddfod, the centre for learning Welsh introduced a legacy scheme, so that was available to us after the Eisteddfod. But now there is support available to providers, for example, in Wrexham now, there was an opportunity for them to make a bid for funding before the Eisteddfod. So, that's good.

Thank you for that, Catherine. Lis.

The Soar centre is the legacy of the Urdd Eisteddfod that came here in 1987. So, if it wasn't for the Urdd Eisteddfod, this Welsh language centre here wouldn't exist. So, legacy is crucially important, because, at the end of the day, what the Eisteddfod does is to motivate everyone; it makes everyone feel that they are part of something bigger and that they are all working to the same objective, and it's fantastic.

I just want to say at this point that I don't arrange festivals. I have done around four times in the past, but I don't do so now, because it's too much work in addition to trying to run a theatre and so on. It's just too much. I understand the problems that others around the table have. I have to say that, as a menter iaith, we have to be specialists in everything, including toilets for festivals even. So, arranging festivals is a huge amount of work in addition to everything else that we have to do.

Thank you, Lis. I don't see that anyone else has indicated, so we'll go back to Gareth for a further question.

Thanks again, Chair. I want to just explore how the mentrau iaith currently promote their festivals and events and engage with their communities, especially for non-Welsh speakers or those not engaged with their provision as such. So, going into those non-Welsh-speaking communities, how that's promoted and indeed encouraged within some of those low-density areas.

Who wants to go first? I'll go to Osian.

There's a lot of partnership working happening. We work with our partners locally, with Dysgu Cymraeg Morgannwg. We have a community empowerment officer, we work with schools from both sectors. With our festivals, every school in the county has an invitation to perform. Parti Bach Ponty is on a week Saturday. There's a band coming from an English-medium school in Mountain Ash to perform bilingually in that event. We never thought something like that would have been able to happen from a disadvantaged area, but a group of students are coming to perform. They've learnt a Welsh song as a band, and they want to come and engage with the event. So that is important.

We also have a programme of activities throughout the year, and that is important, where we do engage with different audiences. We have the Miri Mawr programme that targets pre-school parents and families, where we bring all partners together—learning Welsh, RhAG, the local council, the Urdd, the local cluster of schools—and they all come together, and we show a language journey for those families, and it helps them in that journey before school and helps them also as supporting parents and families if they want to learn Welsh with their families. That's something that's very important that we try and promote. And we welcome everybody. In all our events, we try and ensure that they're free for all.

There are a number of mentrau that own or work closely with spaces within their communities. Non-Welsh-speaking groups and Welsh-speaking groups come to those spaces and we can engage with them then in those settings. And we also work with different service providers, with local choirs and so forth. So we try and provide a platform and open the door to have a relationship with them. And then, of course, through things such as music, that can then inspire people to learn Welsh or perhaps to gain that confidence to take a step to go to a Welsh-speaking event outside of that normal bubble, whether it's online or in the classroom, how to take that next step to get out of that safe bubble to that big wide world outside, which is a challenge.

The mentrau do specialise in holding events through the medium of Welsh, but also bilingual events. We need to be honest that a number of our events are bilingual. You will have heard that Ffiliffest was last week, we'll have Parti Bach Ponty soon. Perhaps the children speak Welsh, but the number of families and parents who are Welsh speaking only are much smaller, so we have to engage with them bilingually as well. We see the pride in families in seeing their children perform through the medium of Welsh or do activities through the medium of Welsh, such as Lego, arts and crafts or circus skills, and then we bring the Welsh language into a social setting in a fun way, and that is crucial.

Thank you for that. Was there anybody else who wanted to come in? Maiwenn.

I was just going to add—Osian’s mentioned this—that we do a great deal of work with new partnerships and alternative partnerships. For example, we have our community festival in Mold next month, and we are working with Theatr Clwyd, which means that we can take advantage of their specialism in the arts, and we can promote among each other's contacts. So, as their audience is broader, perhaps, and attracts attendees that wouldn’t perhaps always come to the activities of the menter, that means that we can engage and reach out to more people, and hopefully attract more people to the Welsh language for the first time. That’s the only thing that I wanted to add to Osian’s points.

Thank you. I'll go to Lowri, and then Lis.

Thank you. Following on from Maiwenn’s point, really, just a general point, briefly. We are really rooted in our communities, and the networks and the partnerships on a local level. We have local people sitting on our boards, as directors and trustees, and our priority consistently is local links and connections.

The relationships we have with poverty campaigns, early years organisations and health boards are very close. So, in order to reach that audience who perhaps don’t have a link to the Welsh language usually, who feel, perhaps, that the language isn’t relevant to them, or accessible to them, then the mentrau are in a good position to ensure that those cultural opportunities are accessible and open to all, and that poverty and other barriers are not going to prevent them from taking part, or having access to these opportunities.

So, those links are so important. Because, yes, the opportunities are there for Welsh speakers, for those families who are within Welsh-medium education already, but as everybody else has mentioned, we have a much broader audience that hasn’t had that opportunity, and it’s so important that we continue to maintain those links with all those programmes that ensure that these opportunities are available for free, and that there are no barriers. So, just a general point about that strong community link that we have.

We do have to bear in mind, in terms of what the mentrau iaith do, that we are based in our communities, and we work in partnership with everyone in our communities. We are the glue holding everyone together, because we work with people of all ages too. But we have to bear in mind, in low density areas, that our audience is very different to the mentrau iaith in other areas perhaps. And we do have to be inclusive. We have to attract everyone in. The way that we’ve done it in Merthyr—. I remember when we started in Merthyr 20 years ago, and people thought we were only there for Welsh speakers. But that’s changed entirely. The fact is that everyone is welcome here. We’ve established a space for people where barriers have been broken down between Welsh speakers and non-Welsh speakers.

People come to an English-language choir and they’ve been coming for many years. They see and hear the Welsh language. The Welsh language naturally becomes part of their lives, and that has changed the language of the choir itself. The choir were at the National Eisteddfod in Pontypridd performing. So, it really enhances the lives of people. We let everyone in, and we’re not doing it by enforcement. We’re not forcing anyone to speak Welsh; what we’re doing is providing an example. We’re just saying, ‘This is what we have. This is what you can be part of. Come with us on the journey’. We are the welcoming face of the Welsh language within our communities.

Thank you for that. Gareth, we don't have much time left and we have three Members left to go. Are you happy for us to move on?

Yes. No problem. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you, Gareth. We'll move to Julie.

Diolch. I was going to ask questions about legacy, but I think we've covered an awful lot of those already, so I wondered if Osian could expand on the sort of resource that he feels is needed, which is not necessarily funding, but what additional resource after a large event would be helpful, and which sort of organisations should work together. I know you did refer to 17 organisations, Osian, didn't you, that you were working with. So, I wondered if you could expand on that a bit.

It's difficult, perhaps, not to mention funding, but investment, perhaps, in an area is what's required after an event. We engaged about 17 organisations at a local level who wanted to increase their use of language with volunteers, which was excellent, but of course it's very difficult for us to track and keep on supporting them in addition to our daily work.

In the same way, with the businesses in the town, when the Eisteddfod comes to an area, it's not just the Eisteddfod town that benefits. People were travelling all over the county. We've seen people return to Treorchy, to Aberdare, after the eisteddfod as well. Gŵyl Mabon was held at the beginning of May, and people who had come to support the festival and had a good experience wanted to come and support again. There were choirs from Cardiff coming to the Rhondda eisteddfod, coming up for the day and taking the train back. And we know, from my experience supporting Clwb y Bont, that people come nearly every weekend to a town like Pontypridd, whether it's for a meal, and they'd had that good experience and so they come back to the areas to support them.

What's difficult is to track that and be able to support the business and ensure that very simple things such as Welsh lanyards or learner lanyards are with the workforce. We go round with them, of course, and people wear them and then the lanyard goes home, so it's difficult to keep on top of that. But also support for the people and organisations that perhaps are starting on their journey. We are doing a lot on a partnership level. We had the Welsh fair that was a testament to that, where there was an opportunity for people to use the Welsh language—whether they were choirs, chapels, folk dancing groups, folk groups—so people could go there and engage with the Welsh language. The investment in a person and in a team, to get studies—. We have already spoken about how we evaluate events and so on—that we can get that resource and time to do that is very important.

And also, a big part of our work is to refer people to places. People come to us quite often, we say, 'Go to Dysgu Cymraeg' or, 'Go to this group, go to join this choir—go.' So, they come to us and we send them away to the best place in terms of where they are on their journey, which can feel a little bit odd at times, that we send people away, but we're sending people to the correct place to get the support that they need.

We do a lot of work with the business community, and certainly that is something where much more support is needed. There's a high percentage of the workforce in Pontypridd town, for example, who want an opportunity to use more Welsh, but we can't work out exactly where and how is the best time to do that, and perhaps that's where we need the support. So that it's easily accessible to people—that's important. We live in an age where people want things on a plate, so we need the resource and the investment to be able to ensure that it is as easy and as simple as possible for people.

Thank you very much. I suppose one of the really difficult things is to keep the momentum going after a festival, and that is where you need the input to enable that to happen. Have any of you got any comments about that, keeping the momentum going?

I'll go to Maiwenn first, and Catherine, and then I'll come back to Osian.

I was just going to add—. I'm sure that we could answer these questions better in a year's time, but we've been able to take advantage to get to know some communities better and create new contacts, as we've already mentioned, and we've built some sort of relationship with individuals in areas where perhaps the menter was very eager to create those connections, and through that, we've perhaps been able to identify gaps in provision or gaps in particular areas too. So, certainly, maintaining momentum in those areas that have seen much more Welsh language activity over the past year or two would be a priority for us and would be something that would need additional resource and additional support.

Thank you, Maiwenn. Catherine wanted to come in. I'll go to Catherine, Osian and then to Lis. I know that this is such a huge topic, but if I could ask you to be relatively succinct because there are a number of things that we want to discuss, but everything that you're telling us is very useful. I'll go to Catherine next.

Thank you. We put in a bid for funding to the National Centre for Learning Welsh, and we were very fortunate to receive £16,000 to continue with additional courses and sessions for learners—

I think we've lost Catherine.

It's my signal.

You're back.

So, we were very fortunate to run a couple of face-to-face sessions in communities for learners in the evenings, and also practice sessions online, because they want the opportunity to practice—[Inaudible]—time to attend events. So, it was a good thing that we had the funding for a year to continue with the cause.

Thank you, Catherine. And Osian.

The situation that we've found ourselves in, which is slightly odd, is that in 2023 we had Parti Ponty, with 9,000 people attending the event. We decided not to hold an event last year to support the Eisteddfod. That was a decision taken jointly between ourselves as a menter and the Eisteddfod. But, what we've seen this year is that the funding, as a result of cuts, has gone, so we have Parti Bach Ponty happening the weekend after next, and it feels like we're moving in the wrong direction. We've had shared prosperity fund money to fund this event, and fortunately we've had support from Pontypridd Town Council. But it does feel like, where we've had a major event and we want to develop and evolve, and perhaps demonstrate that we can recreate the positive experience that people had in coming to Pontypridd, that we've now moved backwards. And what's difficult is that, in low-density areas, you need more investment for an event that brings in smaller numbers, rather than a smaller investment for more people. It's difficult for us to compete with events in more traditionally Welsh areas in terms of numbers, but we know that the impact is far, far greater.

A final word on this to—. Heledd, did you want to come in on that point?

Can I just come in specifically regarding what Osian was saying? So, in terms of ensuring the greatest legacy possible, how much—? I just want to try to understand. Obviously, you're restricted then in being unable to have Parti Ponty and build on the success of the Eisteddfod. Do you think that we are missing opportunities because that funding isn't available as legacy funding?

Most certainly, yes. Most certainly. We are offering far, far less this year. We are having to go to an area of the park that isn't on people's doorstep, and the programme that we can offer is also much, much more limited, and that means working with partners, supporting partners who want to expand their work programme, like Technocamps, who want to expand their Welsh-medium programme. So, not only working in the arts, but also in other areas. So, certainly it limits what we can do. We are aware that these events are expensive, but as we've said, the impact is so much greater.

Thank you, Osian, and the final word on this to Lis.

I'm really pleased that you raised that now, Osian, because we were all very disappointed that Parti Ponty couldn't happen in the same way this year, because it was a little bit of a damp squib, really. I have to say that momentum is very difficult to maintain. You have to plan better for that, definitely.

Thank you for that. Julie, was there anything else that you wanted to ask?

No. Diolch.

No. Great, we'll move on to Heledd.

Thank you very much. Clearly, there's a big difference when an Eisteddfod comes to an area, but you don't get an Eisteddfod in your area regularly, so I am very aware of the importance of the festivals that you stage otherwise. Clearly, Lis, you have a slightly different situation because you have a centre and so on. The challenges are different there in terms of running a centre—different to those of the mentrau iaith. But in terms of those of you who are involved in festivals, how challenging is it in terms of keeping them going now? We understand about Parti Ponty, which you've just mentioned. Due to the increase in costs—and we've seen that with the National Eisteddfod—that must be difficult for you. Do you think that we're going to see a reduction in the number of festivals staged by the mentrau iaith, because of the funding situation?

Lowri.

Thank you. Your point is very timely, Heledd, because, as a region, we've been discussing this over the last few years, as we see the benefits, see the advantages, see the attendance increasing at these events, and hear about the impact that they have on lives and use and behaviour. At the same time, our general funding is not increasing, but the cost of the infrastructure required to hold these events safely is increasing. So, I do think that we're going to have very difficult conversations in the next couple of years in terms of whether we can continue with some of these events. We're very proactive in considering what we can purchase jointly, and that conversation is continuing so that we can save costs, but also continue to offer a series of opportunities, especially in the summer, for the whole region, for people to attend.

So, the ideal situation is that people attend Parti Ponty, Ffiliffest, Tafwyl and Gŵyl Newydd in September in Newport, but in order to continue with that and expand what we're offering during those events, there is a need for sufficient funding so that we can provide a strong arts programme, but also hold the events in a safe manner. And what we see as challenging, quite often, is that the funding available locally is quite scarce. The SPF has been available, but obviously there are changes on the horizon to that, and the financial pressures on local authorities mean that it's very difficult to continue to attract funding.

A number of us have close links with the arts council, with bids going to them on an annual basis, but that's only part of the budget. So, funding the infrastructure required is getting more and more challenging. And, certainly, as mentrau, we have a programme throughout the year of events that are smaller in size in our communities, and I think that we all feel strongly that we prioritise those as well. But we've heard this morning about the impact of some of the more collective events, and we really don't want to see those having to take a step back or for us to have to think about holding them every other year, because maintaining momentum then would be very difficult. So, yes, there are significant challenges facing us, just at the time when we feel that some of these are building momentum and are getting the response, and when the local community are starting to take ownership of them as well. So, yes, it is very challenging.

Thank you for that comprehensive response. I saw a great deal of nodding. I don't know if there are any additional points, or if everyone is content. Yes, Osian.

Well, one thing to note, of course, is that, in addition to the infrastructure costs, there are staffing costs—we have to take that into account—but also there's the financial risk to the menter if there is an overspend. If it rains, for example, people won't come out, so one can plan, but it's the menter that has to pick up all of those costs, and it just puts every menter in a very, very precarious position if we want to increase and develop our provision. Unfortunately, it does ultimately come down to money, but that's the reality with festivals, and I would think that that would be the case for most of the mentrau.

Thank you, Osian. Clearly, as mentrau, you have a key role in terms of the Welsh in education strategic plans and in terms of the target of a million Welsh speakers, but also in terms of increasing and normalising the usage of the Welsh language. A number of your events are things that make the language a language of fun, so that Welsh isn't seen as something for the classroom alone. Do you think that we're doing enough to take full advantage of what you deliver in order to reach the Government's strategic targets, or do you think that there is more that could be done strategically, by the Government and so on, that would enable us to take full advantage, not just in terms of legacy in relation to the Eisteddfod or festivals and so on, but in terms of the range of work that you do, including the festivals?

Lowri, and then Lis. Lowri.

Thank you. Yes, quickly, I think that that's an important point, and in general, it does feel at times that the mentrau's contribution in terms of increasing use, especially for children and young people, is being undervalued, because quite often, we are the only providers of those opportunities in the community, on a regular basis and during school holidays and so forth. What we are seeing is that catch-22 situation: if the opportunities aren't sufficient for children and young people, we see a decline in confidence in Welsh language skills.

So, in terms of objective 5 in the WESP, where use is essential, our work is crucial, and often we're the main partner responsible for that, but as Osian has mentioned, there's great pressure on us to try and do that, and then festivals and other collective events on top of that. So, certainly, there needs to be a further discussion in terms of acknowledging the strategic contribution and the far-reaching impact that our day-to-day work is having on usage by children and young people.

Thank you, Lowri. Lis wanted to come in. Oh, sorry, Heledd, if you wanted to come back. No? Lis.

Yes, I very much agree. We put a great deal of effort into the WESPs and the meetings and so on and having discussions, but I do feel that they really undervalue the mentrau iaith. Because there's that whole section 5 issue, where it talks about holding activities outside of the classroom, and schools don't take community collaboration seriously, in my view. I don't know about the rest of you, because you do work that's slightly different to mine, but, yes, I do feel that there's—. I think that councils should be more aware that they need to collaborate with the mentrau iaith, in my view, anyway.

I could see a few smiles from others there.

Osian.

Perhaps one thing that we need to consider is that, very often a menter iaith is identified in a document, in a report as a partner, but what does that actually mean in practice, in terms of what the expectations are and where the support comes from to enable that to happen? Perhaps that is something that needs to be looked at so that we can deliver what we as mentrau iaith want to see and want to develop in our own areas.

Maiwenn wants to come in as well.

Just quickly, to endorse what Osian has just said, I think we do a lot of work in terms of filling the gaps, supporting organisations and other partners, perhaps, if they have areas where they want to target. We work very closely to realise their priorities as well, and as everybody's said already, perhaps we need to draw attention to that.

Thank you, Maiwenn. Heledd.

I'm content to move on if you would like to.

Okay, thank you for that. So, finally, we will turn to Lee.

I just want to briefly touch on something we've already discussed in the round, the tension between how do you make events sustainable through charging and how do you ensure the widest possible access, which we all know is desirable. That's something I think we've touched on quite a lot, but I just wanted your final reflections on the right balance there.

Thank you, Lee. I know you've all got a view on this, so you're welcome to express that view. I'll go to Osian first.

I think the challenge and what we want to do as mentrau iaith is to be as accessible as possible and give people the opportunity to engage with the language for free in their areas, particularly in disadvantaged areas. We're not just talking about the large events, but also talking about events such as the one in Mountain Ash on Saturday, to a family craft session. We've got Miri Mawr, which we mentioned—we're arranging that there's a Welsh-speaking Father Christmas in an event so that children hear the language, and we take the financial hit then to enable that to happen. So, we're also trying to arrange things.

It's all-important. The risk is that charging people would be a barrier. I've had a number of schools that will be performing in Parti Bach Ponty in a fortnight's time asking whether the parents have to pay to come in, and that, perhaps, would mean that that school would choose to either come or not come. So, it is important for us.

Also, we do appreciate that that does place a financial pressure on us and is a challenge, but there's no correct answer to that. I appreciate that, but we do feel strongly, and we will see in Tafwyl this weekend thousands of people enjoying the Welsh language, and enjoying the Welsh language in a way that perhaps they don't do in the school or classroom. It opens people's eyes to all the opportunities that are available to them through the medium of Welsh, not only through music but socially, and there'll be stalls, comedy gigs, coffee mornings for learners—there's something for everybody. I think being able to offer that on a plate for free, particularly in areas that are fragile and disadvantaged, is crucial.

Thank you, Osian. Lis wanted to come in, I think.

We've stopped doing certain things because we simply can't ask our community for money anymore. We know that they can't afford it. We feel terrible guilt when we ask a school to come here and ask them for £7 for a ticket to come to the theatre. If we can't get a grant to cover it, then we can't stage those events.

With Tafwyl in particular, people are travelling from across the Valleys to attend. My children will be going, and they can't wait. The fact that it is free of charge does make such a difference—it truly does. I have to say at this point, in terms of Catherine's comments, that the costs of learning Welsh are a great barrier for people learning in Merthyr. People can't afford to learn Welsh, which is a problem.

Thank you. I'll go to Lowri.

Just quickly—and I completely agree with Osian and Lis—holding these events for free is key and is a priority to us. It means that people have access to these experiences bilingually and through the medium of Welsh and that there are no barriers for them. I think what we're good at doing is to be as innovative as possible in attracting funding, but also collaborating with local community organisations that are willing to support and come to these events, without charging, and to provide the most valuable experience possible to our communities.

So, it's very challenging to keep the costs at a level that we can cope with, and that we can attract funding to meet those costs and then continue to ensure free entry. It's not easy at all, and, going back to that discussion about the infrastructure costs increasing, it's becoming more and more difficult. But I think the reason we feel so strongly that it's so important that there are no barriers is because we have some of the most disadvantaged communities in Wales and we don't want to see poverty being a barrier that stops people having these experiences through the medium of Welsh.

I think our community links mean that, currently, we succeed because we can bring people together to make the experience as diverse and rich as possible. But we don’t want to be in a situation where parents have to pay to come in and have to make the decision not to attend, then.

Thank you. Because this is the final question—I’ll come back to Osian, I promise—I’ll just ask if Maiwenn or Catherine want to speak as well. You’re more than welcome to do so. I’ll go to Maiwenn.

I was just going to add very briefly, we were talking earlier about evidence, and I think most of the mentrau would have anecdotal comments and conversations that they've had with people who have perhaps just attended on a whim. In our festival last year, it was open, on market day in the middle of town, with a number of performers on the high street, so there were people there who just happened to have come to the town on that day and had stayed until the end of the day because of the event. And if that hadn't been an open, accessible festival delivered to a bilingual audience, then those people wouldn't have thought of attending and wouldn't have continued to attend Welsh-medium events in the future after that. So, that's the only thing that I wanted to add.

Thank you, Maiwenn. I'll go to Catherine and then Osian.

Just to respond to Lis, in terms of costs of learning Welsh, we keep our costs as low as possible, and there are free courses available now, and, of course, for people who receive benefits, there are reductions available and some free courses available, so we are keen to welcome everybody to our lessons. And we run supplementary activities for free, and also resources to support learners are free as well.

Thank you, Catherine. That's useful. And the final word, therefore, to Osian.

Just as to why it's important that we keep these events free, we have to think about the competition that we have. Our events are usually the only events in an annual calendar of events that are arranged within an authority where the Welsh language is the main language and is celebrated. Therefore, all we're asking is that there is one event in the calendar where the Welsh language is given that platform. We all want to see a million Welsh speakers by 2050, and without these events, then it will be very difficult, and there is competition. We had Ffiliffest last week and we had a beach party in Risca held by the council on the same day. We face the same thing next weekend—there are other events happening within the county. There's always competition, so we have to ensure that these events are available free of charge so that people do come and that it appeals to people, without having a barrier that prevents them from attending or to make them think, 'Well, do I want to spend my money there or shall we go elsewhere?'

Thank you very much to you all. Thank you for your evidence this afternoon and for the work that you all do in your areas. It is so very important for our language and our communities, so thank you very much.

A transcript of what's been said will be sent to you so you can check that it's a fair reflection of what's been said. I know we've been short of time, but if there are any additional comments that you would have hoped to have made that you haven't had an opportunity to cover during the session, you can send that information to us. So, thank you, once again, for your evidence.

Members, we'll take a break for lunch and we'll wait to hear that we're in private session. Thank you, once again, to our witnesses.

[Inaudible.] I'll ask witnesses to introduce themselves. I'll go to Betsan first.

My name is Betsan Moses, I am the chief executive of the National Eisteddfod.

Diolch, Betsan. Llio.

Llio Maddocks. I am the director of the arts for Urdd Gobaith Cymru.

A warm welcome to you both. We'll go straight into questions, if that's okay with you. Clearly, this afternoon, we're looking at the impact of large Welsh language cultural festivals and events, in terms of the benefits that arise for some of those areas that have a lower density of Welsh speakers. In that regard, what do you think is the role of those large festivals and events? Who'd like to go first? Betsan, first.

I would say that they have a crucial role, because they provide one with an experience of a dynamic language, and, for me, the important thing is that the Eisteddfod can be on their doorstep and they have an experience that compares with the major festivals around the globe, and that's held through the medium of Welsh. So, it normalises the use of the Welsh language, but also the fact that the experience is such a memorable one, one that will remain with those people for decades to come. It's crucially important.

But, of course, the National Eisteddfod is more than an eight-day festival. It's the largest community project of its kind in Wales. What's important is that there's working within an area in the two years in the run-up to that festival, and ensuring that there is a legacy is just as important. So, for me, we need to ensure that a community buys into a festival, that they feel that they are part of that festival, and that there are opportunities along the way in the run-up to the Eisteddfod so they can use the Welsh language skills that they have, or to attend an event as non-Welsh speakers, but that they feel that we are removing any barriers, where one can feel ownership of the language.

For me, all of those things—the micro-projects that happen in an area, the local and regional projects, the opportunities, and then, of course, there's the legacy work in ensuring that our grass-roots partnerships can continue and can use the injection provided by the Eisteddfod in their area—contribute to ensuring that the Welsh language becomes more deeply rooted in those areas once we've left.

Diolch, Betsan. Llio.

Thank you. I think it would be useful to provide you with an overview of what Eisteddfod yr Urdd is today, and thank you for your support to the festival and also for visiting, but also more broadly to all Urdd activities in our communities.

I think that the image of the Urdd Eisteddfod, for those who haven't attended in the last few years, is quite a traditional one. But the reality of the situation is completely different now, particularly since the COVID period. The Eisteddfod has developed in order to broaden its appeal to new audiences, and a number of those are learners or completely new to the language. And that was under the leadership of our young people. The views of our young people and how they steer the Urdd's activities is important to the running of the organisation, particularly with developments such as Cwiar na Nog for the young LGBTQ+ community, to ensure that they feel a sense of belonging through the medium of Welsh as well as through their queer identity; Nant Caredig, which is a quiet area for neurodiverse children; our prayer rooms; and the Triban Festival, for example—providing young people with an experience along the journey of being able to organise a festival.

But, in those areas where there's a low density of Welsh speakers, I think the impact of a travelling event is the most important aspect. The difference that we can make to communities in holding events such as the Urdd Eisteddfod and the National Eisteddfod, and providing that injection of Welsh, as Betsan said, into a community can make a great difference. We visit communities so that they can feel the impact of language use.

This year, in visiting the Neath Port Talbot and Swansea area, we saw a significant increase in the number of learners and those who are new to the language taking part—an increase of 42 per cent in the number of competitors. Not only do they come to have that eisteddfod experience, but their parents come and have a feeling of pride in taking part in the Welsh language. Over 70 per cent of our members come from non-Welsh-speaking households, and we've seen a significant increase in the number of competitors taking part in the Eisteddfod, with over 119,000 applications this year, which is amazing and shows that keenness and desire to take part in cultural activities through the medium of Welsh.

We've been fortunate in the last few years to reach out to new communities by providing free-entry tickets for those on low incomes, and that has made a substantial difference in the communities we can reach and to those who can come and experience the Eisteddfod for the first time—many parents who wouldn't be able to come to the Eisteddfod without that support from the Welsh Government. That has made a big difference. Also, to ensure that we align with the Urdd's strategy of 'Urdd for all', we've also developed the accessibility of the maes, to make sure it's a welcoming place.

Thank you for that, both. We were so keen to hear your evidence, I went straight into it. I should have said at the beginning that we've received apologies from Lee Waters and Mick Antoniw for this session, and Julie Morgan continues to be with us in place of Mick Antoniw. I should have said that at the beginning, but, as I said, I was so keen to hear what you both had to say.

May I check as well, therefore—? Clearly, these festivals and these events—. It's clear to us as a committee that they're very beneficial in some of those areas that don't have a high density of Welsh speakers. How can you evaluate that? Are there some things that are impossible or very difficult to measure? In what ways can you evaluate that, please? I'll go to Llio first, and then I'll come back to Betsan. Llio first.

We do evaluate the festival annually at the end of the festival, and are in the process of doing that now for Neath Port Talbot and Swansea. We assess the festival in terms of its economic impact every five years to see the differences and trends. The Urdd brings an investment of around £16 million into the Welsh economy as a whole, and around half of that is specifically in the area where the Eisteddfod is held.

Social and arts evaluation is slightly different, but we do evaluate the impact that the festival has, and the impact that it has on the use of the Welsh language too. Around 90 per cent of our visitors say that participating in the Urdd Eisteddfod makes them more confident, but also makes them more proud of the language and heritage of Wales. Over 80 per cent of those who are learners or new to the language also say that it encourages them to continue with their Welsh-learning journey, and we're very proud of those numbers, and we can then demonstrate that the Eisteddfod is making a difference to someone's experience of the language and their pride in that language.

We also work with local authorities and have had grant funding to have particular project officers doing engagement work in the locality through WLGA funding, and that's made a difference in terms of engagement before the event, but also in terms of the post-Eisteddfod evaluation. And, of course, the Urdd has a strong network of staff in all regions, so, once the festival is over, they can ensure that there is a legacy and that those who've shown an interest and participated in the Eisteddfod for the first time can continue with their journey with the Urdd, but also with the Welsh language, the arts and those community events that continue within those communities once we as a festival have perhaps left. The Urdd continues to work very closely with those communities even after the Eisteddfod week.

Thank you, Llio. Betsan.

Similar to Llio, evaluation happens at the end of every festival, and evaluation happens with each one of the projects that we're involved in. For example, there was significant evaluation in terms of the community work in Rhondda Cynon Taf. One of the other important things as well is focus groups for people who perhaps will come to the Eisteddfod for the first time, so that we can have their feedback in terms of what their experience was, but also change of attitude, and ensure that we can also feed their needs into the system, so that we can then feed that into the procedures for the organisations that exist there.

I think the important thing for us, when we start a project in an area, is that we bring partners together and we ask the question, 'What do you want to see in two years after the Eisteddfod has been?' and, 'What do you want to see after five years?', because, in reality, people's work programmes, and our programmes and plans—we use 'Cymraeg 2050' as the strategy that we're aiming for—. But we ask people, 'What are the interventions that the Eisteddfod can assist with to make a difference long term for the use of the Welsh language in an area?' So, this is crucial, that we bring partners, so that, be they the mentrau iaith or a local authority, they are able to look at their policy in terms of Welsh language, education and social aspects, and that we can say, ‘How can we make a difference?’ and so that it can be part of the legacy. And we will do—we will be discussing in a year what continues, what changes will be required in Rhondda Cynon Taf. Of course, we haven’t got the capacity to have people at grass-roots level. Ideally, we would. But, to me, what's important is that evaluation starts right at the beginning, because, before we do any work, we have to ask and ensure that we're clear about what work is needed, and what our priorities are for what we put in place at grass-roots level to realise that.

In terms of looking at the economic impact, the Eisteddfod is one of the biggest events you can have, so the impact of the eight days is £20 million. But, of course, one of the most important things is to look at the economic impact after two years and more in an area, because, when you think about it, there are over 2,000 hours’ worth of events happening in the name of the Eisteddfod in the run-up to an Eisteddfod, so there are some 80,000 people taking part in those, which is huge. So, thinking about it, there are restaurants, pubs, chapels, vestries, halls, there is a real impact, not just an economic impact, but also a social impact. For me, one of the most important things is that empowering of communities that happens through the Eisteddfod, because, more so since COVID, people say that the Eisteddfod makes a difference by bringing communities back together, bringing people close together and joining in together again. But, when you look back and think of Monmouthshire, they still say that the Eisteddfod was a catalyst for communities to come together, and that they continue to hold events.

Thank you. Heledd wants to come in.

Yes, thank you very much for that. If I could ask—. Clearly there's a great difference in terms of the structure of both organisations. As you've outlined, Llio, clearly you're more than simply an Eisteddfod; you have a network of offices and so on. So, could I ask Betsan specifically? Just in terms of what we heard in our previous session, the mentrau iaith are very supportive and they're a keen partner for the Urdd and the National Eisteddfod. But one of the things that they noted was that in some local authorities funding is provided for preparation for an Eisteddfod, and it's possible to access additional funding and they can work effectively with you, but in Pontypridd this year, for example, there's not going to be a Parti Ponty, because they can't get the same resource for that. So, do you think that there's a role for Government or a more national role in looking at this idea of preparing for an Eisteddfod and an Eisteddfod's legacy, rather than it being reliant on 22 local authorities who perhaps will take different approaches to that, and will provide different resources for it?

Betsan.

I really think that it is a conversation in terms of the Government, because one of the things we do is discuss with the Government, looking at the different areas where we can make a real difference in an area, instead of looking—. For example, in Rhondda Cynon Taf, people had gone through the education system but they'd lost the Welsh language, and therefore had less of a relationship with the language. So, we were going into tertiary colleges and showing the viability of the language through things such as Maes B and using Katie Chroma for that, so they could see a dynamic language, but also we went to those families who perhaps don't use the language and gave them back that confidence.

So, for me, that conversation with partners, looking at where are those areas that it could make a difference, and a long-term difference, is crucially important, but also we need to look at, when we leave, what comes after the event. Of course, that's a partnership between Government, local authorities and the Arts Council of Wales and everybody, and there's a need to look at that, because, to me, we have to—. Legacy is important to us. But we don't have the resources to fund more than what we're doing now, but I think empowering an area to continue is important. I also think also there's a way for the mentrau iaith to work together and ensure—. Tafwyl could go all the way up the Taff, couldn't it? That would be lovely to see.

Thank you. I could see that Llio wanted to come in.

Thank you, Heledd, and I think this is a very important question, especially given everything that's been discussed already this morning. The Urdd, as you mentioned, has quite a different structure and has staff within our communities, but I think it's worth bearing in mind that we only have one member of staff in every region, and those regions don't always correspond with the local authority boundaries. So, there's usually one member of staff, when it's not the Eisteddfod, working across west Glamorgan—so that's Swansea and Neath Port Talbot—which is a huge area in terms of engagement with the population, and they cover around 170 schools, which is a massive task.

When you see the progress that we've seen and the huge increase in the number of people competing from that area, particularly this year, it's been so much help to have those engagement project officers to coincide with that increase. But now that project funding is coming to an end, as are the contracts—what happens then? I think that's where the investment you mentioned is important, Heledd, so that we can continue to do that work through the Urdd. The Urdd are the specialists in terms of children and young people working in Welsh in Wales. That's where the legacy needs to continue, so that we can develop those relationships with our schools, and ensure that they continue on that journey even when the Eisteddfod moves on to another area, particularly to north Wales, and ensure that it's a long-term journey for those schools rather than a one-off.

I think that there is a key role for us to play in partnership with the mentrau iaith and the National Eisteddfod, and that it's a strategic role that perhaps the Government could invest in in terms of legacy projects to ensure that all the partners can work together on what's important in terms of maintaining those networks, and the mentrau iaith in terms of their expertise with businesses and the use of the Welsh language, adults, partners in the communities, but that the Urdd could take a prominent role in the legacy for children and young people, because we have so many networks within education. It is important that they can then continue to work with the Urdd to ensure that they are aware of the opportunities available to them, even when the Eisteddfod has left, because we don't want to be a one-off, and neither does the National Eisteddfod. We want to ensure that we're part of that journey and bring everyone with us, even when the Eisteddfod has moved on.

There are wonderful stories of schools that have been working with us, some for the first time this year. We had 36 brand-new schools, all second language schools in the locality in west Glamorgan competing for the first time this year. It's so important for us that they can then continue with us into next year—Ysgol Bae Baglan, for example, St Joseph's in Swansea, schools that are multicultural with a lot of different cultures as part of their school, but who feel that the Welsh language can also dovetail with all of that, and these pupils are multilingual. They're used to speaking more than one language, so learning Welsh isn't as much of a barrier as people might think. It's so important that we can continue to provide that support to them.

Thank you for that. We'll move on to questions from Gareth.

Thank you very much, Chair. Good afternoon, everybody. I want to focus on engagement for my set of questions, if possible. With areas of fewer Welsh speakers, in lower density areas, how effective and meaningful do you think community engagement is before a Welsh language cultural event, in your view? Because responses to the committee's consultation suggested that large cultural events don't always explain what festivals are about and don't effectively engage with non-Welsh speakers, with people saying that there are communities who might not know exactly what an Eisteddfod is. So, what would be your response to that, and how effective and meaningful is community engagement in terms of enhancing awareness of Welsh language events and how those communities can engage with them most effectively?

It's crucial, and, in reality, that's why our work is happening. We launch our events at the heart of a community. For example, in Rhondda Cynon Taf, it was in the Lion in Treorchy. We don't parachute events into an area—we work with people to ensure that we can put a local stamp on something that is national and international.

I think the big thing for us is those micro projects, such as working on the Penrhys estate with young carers, discussing what is their language and what is their area through a photography project, working with people such as People First, with people who have additional learning needs, so that they can own it and that they're aware of how they could be performing in the Eisteddfod and so forth. But also, there are armies of volunteers working at grass-roots level with us, ensuring that people can understand that it's their eisteddfod, that they're part of it from the beginning.

I was talking to somebody who'd lived in the same street since he had been born; he was 64 years of age. He told me, 'I thought I knew my community, but I knew circles that I was part of. But now, with the Eisteddfod in the area, and with the events that I've been to, from a cymanfa ganu, to Elvis and bingo, I can now say that I know my community and I know the people—I know everybody on my street.'

That's what the Eisteddfod can do—it breaks down those barriers that people feel. Many people see the Eisteddfod as something that's traditional. Of course, we have to respect tradition, and it is a celebration of our culture and our traditions, but it's more than that. It's part of the viability of our culture. And, therefore, the fact that they can do these different, wacky things in their area, and do that hearing the Welsh language, or using the Welsh that they have, is vital. So, for me, it's the fact that, from the beginning, somebody realises, 'It's my Eisteddfod, I can put my stamp on it, I can work with people'. It's the same when we do an artistic programme—we ask anybody to come in, to throw any sort of idea into the pool, and we look at all ideas and see how we can realise it.

One of the big things we created was Mas ar y Maes. There was a feeling that queer people felt, 'Is the Eisteddfod something for me?' Of course, that now has sparked something, and even Pride are saying that Mas ar y Maes is one of the most important things that's happened in the last decade in terms of people feeling an ownership. So, in the same way, we need to reach all these unfamiliar audiences, that we discuss with them and look at other ethnic communities, and that they feel, 'I'm part of this'. We're working at the moment in Wrexham to ensure that we use Indian dance and folk dancing. So, people can say, 'Perhaps I don't speak Welsh at the moment, but I'm going to be part of this, and there is room for me there', but, also, that we can celebrate Welsh culture, and that they can have that memorable experience, where they can say, 'This belongs to me'.

Thank you, Betsan. Llio, was there anything you'd like to say?

I think where we're fortunate as an Eisteddfod is that it's the culmination of three years' hard work with the community, and that's where the engagement work is so very important. We've just announced our location for 2028, so that community work will start now. The Urdd Eisteddfod, essentially, is a competitive festival. It's a multicultural festival, but the crux of it is competition. And it's a process that can be complex, particularly for those who've never participated before, or who haven't grown up in that culture. Trying to explain what it is can be a barrier in and of itself, but that takes a great deal of care and hard work too. And it's something that we as staff do in terms of the Eisteddfod department, but also at a community level and with our network of volunteers.

We're very fortunate to have a regional committee of adults who are volunteers in every region in Wales, but also a youth forum who volunteer throughout the year to help us provide that support with our engagement work. We can go into schools, community groups, arts networks that already exist, in order to show them how they can participate. That's very important to us. We explain how things work and how they can compete. And it's no coincidence that our competitor numbers have been going up since we've been doing this more intensive engagement work. That's a cause of pride for us, that we can appeal to new audiences on an annual basis.

We've also been undertaking a number of engagement projects, such as Prosiect Plethu, which brings together different cultural approaches with traditional Welsh culture and shows that there is room for everyone within the Welsh tradition. We worked with 50 young refugees in the Swansea area this year, and then they came to the Eisteddfod field free of charge, through the low-income free ticket offers, and they understand that they were involved in Welsh culture and belong to it. They were part of the Nwy yn y Nen project, where they reinterpreted a famous song by Dewi Pws. So, they truly felt that their culture was part of that patchwork of Welsh culture, which makes us such a strong cultural nation.

Ensuring that those new communities are part of that is crucially important to us, such as the establishment of Cwiar na Nog for LGBTQ+ young people. A number of young people had come to us previously and felt that they didn't feel that their queer identity was related to their Welsh identity or the Welsh language, and didn't have the language to explain their identity through the medium of Welsh. So, they always turned to English when they were trying to explain their feelings. They also felt that they had to go over the border very often to get that queer culture.

But now, Cwiar na Nog is a programme of events throughout the year. We're taking a group of young people out to Pride in Amsterdam. We're doing that at the end of July to open their eyes as to how other countries celebrate their identity. And then we'll bring them back and we'll work with them to actually curate the Cwiar na Nog programme in the Urdd Eisteddfod, and across the year, and then they'll become curators within the LGBTQ+ community. So, we empower people who are new to us to operate within their communities and to become full citizens within those communities, and to become ambassadors, and it's an important part of their journey within the Urdd.

Thank you for the response.

I just want to understand how the Urdd and National Eisteddfod ensure that steering groups and fundraisers are inclusive of the whole community, because one individual suggested that the work of raising money to support the Eisteddfod could be construed as exclusive, noting that there were plenty of fundraisers, but that they were aimed at, or appear to be aimed at, Welsh speakers rather than Welsh learners. Again, a similar question: what would be your response to that? And what efforts are being made by the Urdd and National Eisteddfod to make sure that such fundraisers are inclusive of the whole community, and that such things can't be construed as perhaps something that they're not—to perhaps dispel that myth, if it's not true?

Who would like to go first? Llio.

I think it's a valid point in terms of the fact that the local appeal committees hold a number of events two or three years before the event happens through the medium of Welsh. But I think it's important, in terms of that injection of Welsh into communities, that there are community events, fundraisers and fun events, happening through the medium of Welsh, and that they are safe spaces to use the Welsh language where, perhaps, there's not a high number of cultural events through the medium of Welsh happening without there being a reason such as the Eisteddfod to raise funds.

But it depends on the communities. There are a number of activities and fundraisers where targets for fundraising are very high, and it would be impossible to raise them just within the Welsh-speaking communities. So, there are number of activities also happening bilingually or through the medium of English as well in order to appeal to a broader audience. Because the intention of the fundraisers is, yes, to help to raise funds, but also to raise awareness that the Eisteddfod is coming to an area. The Eisteddfod wouldn't be possible without reaching out to those new communities, and they're as core in the fundraising events as they are during the Eisteddfod week.

We use many networks to set up the fundraising committees, and they are open to all—people who have learnt the language or those who have never come across the language and use this as an excuse to learn Welsh, and they join the committees. We use the Urdd's internal networks, also local authorities and cultural organisations, the mentrau iaith, to ensure that we have a wide cross-section of people on the steering committees.

But also, I think what's important is that they can recognise where their weaknesses are; they know where the gaps are on the committees, and that's where we as a department then can decide on projects to target those communities and draw them into those activities, perhaps not through the steering committee, but to ensure that their voices are heard and are a core part of the Eisteddfod through artistic decisions, arts projects, working with partners, so that we ensure that we get to every community and ensure that they're a part of the Eisteddfod as well.

I think what's important is that everyone feels that they have a place and ownership, and also that they use the language skills that they have. The events do happen mainly through the medium of Welsh, but of course, many of our appeals committees also use interpretation or are held bilingually in order to ensure that everyone can participate in that experience.

But what's also important for learners is that we do have a particular committee looking at opportunities in the lead-up to the festival to ensure that there are additional opportunities to learn the language. But also, during the Eisteddfod week, we have Maes D, which is an incredible resource because you have an incredible arts programme for learners throughout the week, but we also work with the Government, and there are opportunities for people to discuss how they can start their journey in learning Welsh, or continue with that journey, and that, too, provides us with feedback as to the impact of the Eisteddfod in a particular area, because the learning centre could say, 'Well, there was an increase in the number of learners.' Nant Gwrtheyrn are involved in Maes D, and they say that they see a significant increase in people coming on courses following an Eisteddfod.

So, in reality, what do we need? We do tailor events across the two years to ensure that they are particularly there for certain groups. So, there are specific events for learners to ensure that they can develop their skills. But also, we have to ensure that any event is open to anyone and everyone, and, of course, with the arts, language isn't a barrier because people would view culture in multiple languages. It's the experience that's important. But what's important in ensuring that people feel that they can participate is that the welcome is meaningful and that we can talk them through what's required and that there is support if they need interpretation or anything else. So, in reality, we're looking at the various kinds of support needed in any area.

And one of the other things is that we ensure that people pay what they can afford and that the entry fee isn't a barrier too, and that's crucial, because in fundraisers, we have been looking at whether we do charge a particular fee or do we say, 'Well, pay what you can', because what's important in the area is that people don't miss out because they feel that it's a financial burden on them.

Thank you for that. Given time pressures I think that we'll have to move on, and thank you very much. Are you happy for us to move on, Gareth?

Yes, fine. Thank you.

Thank you for that. We'll move on to Julie.

Prynhawn da. You have actually covered this a bit already, but we did have some consultation responses that said that the impact of Welsh cultural festivals and events on Welsh language use is minimal in the long term. So, I wondered if you could give us some evidence to show that a festival or an event in an area with fewer Welsh speakers has an impact in the longer term on the promotion and use of the Welsh language locally. Have you got any sort of evidence for that?

Well, if you look in terms of the Eisteddfod's journey over recent years, you can look at how the Eisteddfod in Monmouthshire has meant the development of Welsh-medium education in Monmouthshire. In the same way, you can look at how the Eisteddfod in Newport really empowered people to ask for additional schools. So there’s that. But also there's that link with the National Centre for Learning Welsh in looking at the growth in the number of people who want to learn Welsh.

We also need to remember that there is a period of time when there's a growth before the Eisteddfod arrives, so there are opportunities for local authorities and people where people can learn Welsh leading up to the Eisteddfod. I think what's important is looking at the legacy and looking at those strategies, in five-year period afterwards, to ensure that we continue and that we can see that growth. Of course, there are a number of anecdotal comments following Pontypridd where people were telling me, 'I've just realised I should have been looking at Welsh-medium education for my child.’ And that wasn't just one story; I heard tens of stories like that. So, that is happening throughout.

But I think, for me, and perhaps it's something that's more difficult for you to map, is that you can see where somebody is part of a festival, experiences it, and then looks at reconsidering their use of the language. And that's crucial, the use of language, not just someone starting to learn, but that they realise the language is relevant to their involvement in the community and so on, and that people reconnect with the language. That's happening increasingly having worked in an area for two years. And the people who are scared of using the Welsh they have, perhaps they've lost a lot of it, and then realise, 'Well, I'll use what I've got, there's no need for me to worry any more.' And that is vital. That's something crucial that the Eisteddfod can do, which is to tell people, 'Don't worry, it doesn't matter if we go from one language to another, just that we're confident enough to use the Welsh that we've got.' So, for me, in mapping the journey of the Eisteddfod, you can see how there's a change.

But also our role of discussing with local authorities and ensuring that their strategy for the next five years changes, so that they can see the benefit of adding further opportunities through the medium of Welsh, and also that the whole programme of work of an authority changes, so that when there are events, they normalise the fact that there are Welsh-medium stalls there, because what you might see is that it's not often that you'll see something Welsh at an event. Perhaps the welcome will be bilingual, but perhaps what's on offer is much less. So, ensuring the normalisation of the concept of having a multilingual offer is important, as well as looking at the role of how this is going to change the education sector, and the social sector, and also services, because that is as important as well, that people have the services they want in their language of choice.

Thank you for that. I'll go to Llio. By the way, we’ve got about 20 minutes left and there are a number of other areas that we hope to cover, so this is all very useful to us, but if I could ask you for slightly briefer answers. I'm sorry, I know that so much of what you're saying is very important, but I will go to Llio.

Yes, we could discuss this all day, I'm sure. No, I will be succinct.

I think there are historical examples of the impact of the Urdd Eisteddfod on the Welsh language. Lis mentioned in your previous conversation with the mentrau iaith that Menter Iaith Merthyr and the Welsh language centre in Merthyr were developed as a result of staging the Urdd Eisteddfod, and that desire to see legacy following that festival. And the mentrau iaith generally, the first menter iaith was established because the Urdd Eisteddfod had visited a particular area, and they then wanted to ensure that people could use the Welsh language in their communities following the festival.

But I do think that there are long-term impacts that continue. We carry out case studies every year, and many of our winners of the learners medal, who are leaving Welsh-medium education, change their choice of college because they’ve received that recognition for their use of the language. And rather than going over the border to study through the medium of English, they decide to go to Aberystwyth or Bangor, to have that Welsh experience at university and to develop their language skills—something that they would never have done if they hadn't visited the Eisteddfod and participated in the competition.

And I do think that we as a festival ensure that people remain within Wales. The impact that we can have, as a high-profile event, is huge. Over 1,000 schools engage with the Urdd every year, and that’s increasing because of our engagement with those second-language schools, because they can participate in a festival like the Urdd Eisteddfod when it’s on their doorstep, and then they see the benefits of that and continue with the language, on their linguistic journey.

So, I don’t think it’s a coincidence that all of this happens; I think it’s a fact that high-profile, major national festivals, such as the Urdd Eisteddfod and the National Eisteddfod, truly do have an impact on language use, and for a very long time.

Diolch.

Diolch, Llio. Julie, oedd unrhyw beth arall oeddech chi eisiau gofyn?

I suppose, really: what can you do to establish a lasting legacy in the area you visited without additional resources and funding? Betsan, do you want to go first?

I would say planning with partners who are at grass-roots levels and who will be there, just to ensure that everything we do feeds into that vision. So, when we leave, our exit strategy is that everybody is aware of what their role is, but we also ensure that everybody shares that vision and supports each other. So, really, for me, the planning is crucial in terms of realising that.

Llio.

Thank you. Diolch.

If we could unmute Llio.

Yes, I agree with Betsan on collaboration. You need a strategy to ensure that that legacy is in place in many pockets and communities across Wales simultaneously, because, obviously, we visit different communities every year, us and the National Eisteddfod. So, co-operation and having a particular legacy strategy would make a real difference.

But I also think that everyone is working within their capacity at the moment. In terms of the Urdd Eisteddfod, our team is there to stage the festival. Our staff are there to hold community events within communities. The National Eisteddfod staff are there to stage the festival. As the mentrau iaith crew mentioned earlier, they are there, they are doing this work in addition to their day-to-day activities. So, I think that increasing capacity and securing a legacy is something that we do because we feel very proud of it, and we feel very strongly that we should ensure a legacy within these communities once we’ve left as a festival, but I also think that in order to make the most of that legacy, we do need additional resources invested into it, or it simply won’t happen, or it won’t happen at the optimum level. And, in order to ensure that, we do need investment, resources and people, in order to ensure that that work is delivered.

Thank you. Diolch.

Thank you, Julie. We'll move on to Heledd.

Thank you very much, Chair. Clearly, in terms of both Eisteddfods, Welsh Government has invested in terms of free entry for low-income families in recent years. How important is that to you? Do you think that the entry fee, which remains for a number of people, continues to be a barrier? Is there more that you would like to see happening? For example, the Urdd had a completely free Eisteddfod to coincide with your centenary. What would be the ideal situation in terms of both of your organisations?

Who would like to—?

Well, in an ideal world, certainly, I truly believe that there should be a national festival where there is no charge. I think that celebrating the best of our language and culture is crucially important. We have a national museum where entry is free; why not a festival, I would argue. But, of course, we're very aware that in the current economic climate we have to look at how we can deliver that. And, of course, our take at the gate is crucially important to our business plan. So, we would need significant funding in order to deliver a free festival, but the impact of a free festival would be huge. I must say that the impact of the Eisteddfod in Cardiff is ongoing, so we must not forget the impact of delivering that, because for me, one can see the culture in action, and that's crucially important. So, that would be an ambition of ours.

But I think that what's important in terms of the package for low-income families—and, of course, with us, it's not just the ticket, the package is more than that, you get a food voucher for the children too, so it's a complete experience—I think that's really paid off because it truly provides an opportunity to experience that on your doorstep. And if we're just talking about Rhondda Cynon Taf, what we saw were families coming on the first weekend and they returned. They provided an option to their children, 'What do you want to do? Do you want to go to the cinema in the summer or do you want to go out for a meal?' and they came back. One family came back three times after that because they said that although there was a cost, the experience and what you got for your money was incredible. So, for me, we would be missing an opportunity if that didn't exist, because the fact that one can have that taster and have that experience is truly incredible, but also there's a change of attitude to the language, which is crucially important, because of what you've had. And what's always happened when we've done this is that people have come expecting something very different to what they get, but they have this incredible experience and realise that they have ownership of the language too. So, for me, it is invaluable.

Thank you. Llio.

Yes, the same. In an ideal world I wouldn't say 'no' to free entry for everybody—it would be great, wouldn't it—but the reality is that the Urdd Eisteddfod costs £2.7 million to stage for a week, and quite a small percentage of that, about 10 per cent, comes from Welsh Government investment and the local government association, and then the rest comes from ticket income, broadcasting income, stall holders, caravans and so forth, and corporate sponsorship is a big target for us.

There's a lot of staff investment in ensuring that the ticket price doesn't go up significantly and that we don't subsidise the cost of the Eisteddfod through the ticket cost. We haven't increased the price of competitors' tickets since about 2018 to ensure that it is affordable, and that it continues to be affordable, even though the costs of holding the festival have increased greatly since COVID. They've increased by about £1 million. We ensure that we, as staff, go after grants and additional sponsorship in order to keep ticket prices as low as possible. And I think, compared with other days out for families in terms of tourism, that we still continue to be competitive in terms of what's on offer on the maes during the week.

The grant in terms of free entry has made a huge difference for us—from the Welsh Government. It ensures that parents can come in and see their children compete, and that children from low-income families can come in for free. About 47 per cent of those who claim free tickets are coming to the Eisteddfod for the first time, which ensures that we are reaching out to new audiences. About 13 per cent of those who claim free tickets say that they wouldn't be able to come to the Eisteddfod at all, it would be completely impossible without that support.

And I remember a time, pre COVID, when parents would come to the ticket booth and decide who could go in because they could only afford for one of them to go in, and deciding that, no, the other would have to stay in the car park and sit in the car all day rather than coming in to see the competitors. I remember Urdd staff paying for some people's tickets because they couldn't afford it. So, I think the impact that this grant has will make a huge difference, at a wholly personal and community level, to people and ensures that there is no barrier to them enjoying the arts through the medium of Welsh and in their own communities and that they are able to give their children additional support.

Thank you very much. I think that's very robust evidence that we need to continue to fund low-income families. So, thank you to you both.

In terms of the economic impact, clearly, there's a huge economic impact every time an Urdd Eisteddfod or a National Eisteddfod is held. You've provided evidence to us as a committee many times on that. Do you think that that is fully understood by the Welsh Government and that you are seen as important international festivals rather than simply Welsh language festivals for people from Wales, because you have an international audience, don't you, coming to your eisteddfodau? Could we be doing more to support the Eisteddfod, or both Eisteddfods, and where they are in terms of the economic strategy for Wales?

Betsan certainly wants to come in on this point.

I think that Ian Gwyn Hughes told you earlier, didn't he, about an experience where he felt more comfortable in his identity in another country. And what saddens me is that, when I talk about this—. We've had a number of international visitors to the Eisteddfod—and we have annual festivals—and they say, 'This is one of the most important tools a country could have in terms of soft power, and so why did we get the invitation through you rather than perhaps us being aware of this?' I fear that, sometimes, we're afraid to take the risk and point out that we have one of the main cultural festivals in the world because it is through the medium of a minority language, and I don't understand, because when you look at what we have to offer—. And, curiously, there have been people—international visitors and people who then came to Cardiff's Eisteddfod—who have told me, 'I've had the best cultural experience ever here, even compared with festivals where I pay £150 a day to attend.' And we need to celebrate that, and we need to realise the resource that we have.

And so, I would say that, yes, we need to be more confident and say that we've got a fantastic festival here, and we need to celebrate it. A number of our projects, such as Merched yn Gwneud Miwsig, are part of this soft power initiative, working with the Euros and so on. We've also got TwmpDaith, which we created with Menter Maldwyn, as part of that. But we must remember that we have, I would say, one of the best festivals in the world here on our doorstep, and we need to respect and celebrate that. And I think we need to use that more, because, in terms of tourism, one of the most important things that people say is what's unique about a country, and you have something here that's completely unique and you have these fantastic artists who are a part of it.

I would say that one of the greatest experiences I've ever had is sitting Tregaron, looking at a circus act—and I've seen circus acts throughout Britain and beyond—and it was happening there in Tregaron. We have a fantastic spectacle happening on a daily basis at the Eisteddfod, and I think we need to celebrate that and we need to be confident in pointing that out.

Diolch.

Llio.

Yes, likewise, the Urdd Eisteddfod is the largest festival for children and young people in Europe, if not the world. And, as Betsan said, the eisteddfod brand and the eisteddfod tradition is something that is entirely unique to Wales. And I think it's something that we should be shouting about and celebrating far more, beyond our own organisations, as a Government and as a tourist board. The fact that there are some non-Welsh-speaking communities that still aren't quite sure what an eisteddfod is is a disappointment, because we should be taking pride in this as a nation and in the fact that this makes us unique in terms of multicultural events.

Our health and safety crew tell us every year that we're the biggest festival happening in Europe during that week. The scale is huge when you compare it to other nations, but not just the scale of it as a festival celebrating general culture, such as a musical festival, but something that actually celebrates culture in all its forms throughout the week. It's something that we should be putting at the top of our priority list when we invest in our heritage and culture and when we show the rest of the world what we can do.

And we need to protect both Eisteddfods as something that provide traditional performance opportunities too, as part of our folk culture. There aren't many places where you have a national platform to do that, apart from at the Urdd and the National Eisteddfod, and that's at two different levels, in terms of children and young people and the general population. I think these are important things to nurture and protect, and if we don't celebrate and share these important messages about what makes us unique, then we will only lose them.

Thank you for those responses. Clearly, we as a committee also have a responsibility in terms of scrutinising international affairs, so these are, I'm sure, things that we could scrutinise with the relevant Ministers.

In terms of the research done in understanding the economic impact, clearly, you, as two organisations, do research on this. Is there anything further that you think would assist in understanding this impact? Clearly, there are certain anecdotal things that you've already mentioned in terms of people's feelings, but are there other ways that you think could help with gathering data to actually assess the impact of the festivals?

If I could ask for very brief answers, because we have just four minutes left of our session. I'll go to Llio first.

Dwi'n meddwl, o'n rhan ni, mae effaith yr Eisteddfod genedlaethol fel gŵyl yn cael ei fesur, ond hefyd rydym ni'n mesur yr effaith mae dros 200 o eisteddfodau cymunedol yn ei chael ar y cymunedau yna'n lleol, a dwi'n meddwl bod hwnna'n rhywbeth, efallai, sydd yn cael ei anghofio weithiau—yr effaith economaidd, ond hefyd yr effaith gymunedol a diwylliannol, yn y cymunedau. Felly, yn sicr, rydym ni'n casglu data ar hwnnw, ac mae'n rhywbeth rydym ni'n fwy na hapus i'w rannu.

Thank you.

Betsan.

Likewise, in reality, it's more than just an economic impact; it's a community impact, it's a social impact, and it's a linguistic impact. And, for me, all of those levels are there, and also the digital, because there's a crucial role for us in developing that element. So, you need to look at it holistically because, when you see that in its entirety, what's being delivered is incredible.

Thank you.

Thank you to both of you. May I thank you first of all for being so willing to give of your time this afternoon to give evidence? Also, despite the restrictions on time, you have given us a lot of information and we are very grateful for hearing from your experience, because that will enrich our evidence and this inquiry. So, thank you very much to you both for your time and for providing so much evidence.

A transcript of what's been said will be sent to you to check that it's a fair record, and thank you again for the evidence this afternoon.

Thank you.

Members, we'll move on, but we'll thank our witnesses again for the evidence and for being with us this afternoon. Thank you.

Members, we move on to item 8, namely papers to note. There's only one paper to note for this session, so I'll ask if you're content to note that paper.

Happy to note.

Great. Okay.

Therefore, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42, I move a motion to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting. Are you content?

Yes, happy.

Okay. We'll wait to hear that we are in private session.