Good afternoon. Returning to the Senedd today is so bittersweet. We return today as 59 Members, and we all, today, and forever more, will feel the loss of our dear friend Hefin David. Many of Hefin’s family and friends have joined us in the public gallery. Thank you for joining us to share in these tributes. And our thoughts are particularly with Hefin’s beloved daughters and parents in this time of loss, but also Vikki, our colleague and Hefin’s partner.
Thank you, Vikki, for joining us today. We are so sorry for your loss, and we want you to know how much we cherished Hefin. He was respected and liked across this Chamber. It's little understood outside this Senedd of 60 how well we know each other, how closely we work together across parties, across all parts of Wales. We spend so much time together that we get to know each other well. Therefore, the sense of loss in this room today, in this Senedd, is profound.
Personally, I worked closely with Hefin once he became one of this Senedd's commissioners. He understood his responsibility as finance commissioner with such professionalism and diligence and skill. Manoeuvring a budget through the Senedd is fraught with difficulty. All of you in this room have a different view on where money should be spent and where not. Hefin took such care in listening to your views, taking some on board, and giving clear answers where he did not agree. I was so impressed by his approach, and I will miss my commissioner.
His contributions in this Senedd always merited a listen. He championed many important issues, often on behalf of those who could not champion themselves. He also championed his dear Caerphilly. He championed the Labour Party, Wales and its Senedd. I doubt there was a single time when his name was down to speak in a debate that I would not have called him. As a Llywydd for over nine years, it's hard not to have developed favourites amongst you. [Laughter.] Hefin was one of my favourites. Not a teacher's pet—far from that—but interesting, challenging, thoughtful, passionate, and unexpected in his words and thinking. And he was using more Welsh as time went on.
Some people leave a mark quietly, and others leave it loudly. Hefin did both. He left a mark on everyone who knew him, through his laughter, his intellect, his boundless energy, and his extraordinary capacity to care. Today, we come together to remember a friend, a colleague, a father, a partner, and a truly remarkable human being.
I first met Hefin David in a lecture hall, where he was in full flow, strutting his stuff as an academic. And within minutes, I thought, 'Right, this one’s not going to stay in the classroom; he’s absolutely destined for politics'. And, yes, I did get on his case to stand. There was just something about him—his intellect, his energy, his ease with people, his humour. He had that rare spark that drew you in and made you want to be around him. Before the Senedd, Hefin had made his mark in academia, working around the world. And, as a proud University and College Union member, he understood that great education meant far more than just inspiring individual students.
Hefin's commitment to the Labour Party began in his teenage years, following in his father's footsteps. His work for the community was rooted in genuine conviction rather than political ambition. He became a councillor for the very community where he was born, dedicating himself to the place that had shaped him, long before he ever dreamt of serving as a Senedd Member. That rare blend of global perspective and deep local commitment shone through in everything he did. His real brilliance wasn't just in his ideas, it was in how he related to people. He was a talented politician, with a remarkable gift for communication, and a natural connector, someone who had an authentic way of making whoever he was speaking with feel like they were the most important person at that moment—a gift that just comes from the heart.
In May 2016, we arrived in the Senedd together, fresh faced, full of energy and enthusiasm. I remember us both trying to navigate the maze of corridors and committees and endless rules. Hefin, with that cheeky grin of his, would always say, 'Come on, we're going to change the world, but we just need to figure out how we get out of these damn lifts'. He championed causes he believed in passionately, advocating tirelessly for Valleys communities. Hefin didn't just see policy, he saw families trapped, couples stuck and pensioners burdened. He made their fight his own. He authored reports on employment transitions, and secured practical wins like a bus to the Grange University Hospital. His work on leasehold reform, on learners with additional needs came from a deep understanding that behind every statistic was a child, a family, a future that deserved our very best efforts. As a Senedd Commissioner, he approached decisions with thoughtfulness and a long-term perspective, understanding that we're not just stewards of public money but of public trust.
But the source of his care and commitment was, first and foremost, his home. Hefin's heart was at its fullest with his family. He was a devoted father, and his face would light up whenever he mentioned Caitlin and Holly, his pride and joy. Every achievement, every milestone, every little funny thing they said, he wanted to share with us because his love for them couldn't be contained. He was such a cool, fun dad. When Holly was born, I bought her a stylish House of Lords babygro, and Hefin's grin just said it all. He was already imagining her giving Ministers a hard time from the despatch box. Everything he did in the Senedd was guided by their futures. He wanted to make the world a fairer, kinder, more supportive place not just for them, but for all the children and families navigating similar journeys. I'll never forget those wide-eyed faces pressed against the glass in the public gallery, watching as I was first sworn in as First Minister. And you could see him wanting them to understand, to be inspired, to glimpse what was possible for their own futures. He always took the most formal occasion and used it to help them and others feel human and warm.
Hefin was, of course, our leading man and shining star on Sharp End. Watching him on screen, you could see what we all knew: he was exceptional. He had that rare ability to make political discussions feel accessible and entertaining. I'll really miss our post-show text debriefs. Without fail, my phone would ping with a hilarious analysis of how it had gone. We all knew he had that mischievous talent for winding people up, but his humour was never mean-spirited. He was a bridge, cutting through the noise to the things that truly mattered. He really was a master at making people laugh, yet beneath all that wit and mischief was a heart that loved fiercely and a man with complex depth. When things got heated, when divisions seemed impossible to cross, Hefin would find that moment and that shared laugh that reminded everyone that we're on the same side really, all trying to do the best for the people that we serve.
But if you really wanted to see that heart at its fullest, you only had to watch Hefin with his partner and our good friend Vikki, who has so bravely joined us today. We were so happy to watch your relationship blossom over the years, our very own Posh and Becks of the Labour world. The way Hefin's eyes would light up whenever he spoke about you, the pride he felt in the life and partnership you built together was unmistakable.
Hefin also deeply loved his friends and supporters—team Caerphilly—many of whom are here today, who helped build a bedrock for his public service. The friends who walked beside him and helped shape the legacy of care, commitment, and community that he leaves behind.
Today, we share not only the loss of an extraordinary colleague and a friend, but also the profound sorrow of losing someone who loved so deeply—a love that extended outward, shaping the way he served his community every single day. Thank you, Hefin, for showing us how to do this job with heart, with humour and with hope. You are loved, you are missed, and the world is both dimmer without you and brighter for having known you. Rest in peace, friend. You'll never be forgotten.
It's a privilege to be able to stand here and pay tribute to Hefin. News of Hefin's passing at such a young age was a great shock to every single one of us in this Chamber. Hefin's mum, dad, his two daughters, family and friends have been very much in our thoughts and prayers in recent weeks, as of course has Vikki, our dear friend and colleague here in the Senedd. I cannot imagine the pain of their loss, but I want them all to know this: we care about you and we love you.
It's difficult to put into words the shock of so suddenly losing a colleague. Many of us here in the Senedd had known Hefin, of course, for almost a decade. And it brings back difficult memories of other losses. You see, Hefin was so many things to so many people. He was a loving son, father, brother, partner and friend. He was a caring boss, of course, to his staff. He was a much-loved colleague to so many of us right across the Chamber in all political parties. He was a tireless advocate of his constituents in Caerphilly, and a passionate campaigner, yes, for people with additional learning needs, long COVID, leaseholders—and the list goes on. He was indeed a talented academic, a social media wind-up merchant, as we often found out to our expense. And, of course, he was a nuisance to the Welsh Government on many an occasion, something that we love to observe from these benches—but never quite sufficiently enough a nuisance to vote on our side, which, of course, was what we often hoped for. He was unfailingly stylish, always in his waistcoat. And he was a very confident, very competent debater and media performer. And he had that talent of being able to debate with warmth and humour, and to disagree very, very well indeed without falling out with you, which was always a nuisance, because sometimes we like to get angry and passionate with one another, but it was very difficult to fall out with him.
And though he was very well-travelled, having experienced teaching and working in places like Germany, Greece, India and China, his heart was always in his community in Caerphilly, the place in which he was born and raised, a place that he served for many years, of course, first as a local councillor and then as Caerphilly's Senedd Member from 2016 onwards.
During Hefin's time here in the Senedd, I was fortunate enough to work with him on a number of issues. Hefin and I both shared a passion for our armed forces here in Wales and, of course, he was a proud employer of an RAF reservist, Michelle Lewis. Together, we sponsored a number of armed forces events and we worked together to secure better recognition for reservists working in the Welsh Parliament by the Senedd Commission. We also spent time serving together on the Children, Young People and Education Committee in the last Senedd, where his expertise in education and his independence of mind really did shine through. In fact, he helped me get through many a long and dull meeting, I can tell you, with his sense of humour that could lighten those very long meetings. He knew how to make us laugh.
One of the things that struck me when I attended Hefin's funeral was those conversations I had with individual constituents—unknown to most people there, just members of the public—who came to pay their respects to a man who, as their elected representative, had worked his socks off for them and gone above and beyond in helping to solve their individual issues that they had brought to his surgery or raised with him in correspondence. He made a difference in their lives, and he's made a difference in our lives too. I want to express my personal thanks for the difference he made in my life and the life of my Senedd. We'll miss him dearly and, of course, we will remember Wynne and Christine, Holly, Caitlin, Siân, Vikki especially, and all of his loved ones in the weeks and months ahead. Thank you.
On behalf of everyone in Plaid Cymru, I extend our sincerest condolences to Vikki and to the family, friends and loved ones of Hefin. The tragic news that came during the summer recess shook us all to the core, and I know that the loss of Hefin will be felt greatly by those who loved him and knew him best.
We remember Hefin as a passionate and dedicated parliamentarian. He was, in many respects, everything an elected member should be: an ardent advocate for his constituents, a committed campaigner for the voiceless, and a free thinker, certainly never ever afraid to speak his mind.
It is often said that campaigning is very different from governing, but it's seldom acknowledged that standing with and speaking for others is what actually drives change. Through his own personal experiences, Hefin magnified the often unfair treatment of autistic people in particular, a lived experience that not only drew cross-party support but the ear of Government too. It's a legacy for which he will be remembered and an issue that we must all adopt in his honour.
I, we, jousted with Hefin many a time. With sharp wit, he would always give as good as he would get, infuriatingly so sometimes, impressively infuriatingly so. And yes, he so loved his late-night Sharp End slots, when he was, arguably, at his sharpest. We had differing views on many issues, and rehearsed them on that programme and here in this Chamber and elsewhere, but, of course, we came together where we found common ground.
I worked closely with Hefin on the contaminated blood cross-party group. We co-chaired the long COVID group. It was a pleasure to work with him, and the experience of all of us, I know, is that even in times of disagreement there was always respect, encapsulating the very nature of what a mature and civil democracy should be. That was important to Hefin.
He not only enriched our debates but also the work of this very institution as a Commissioner. I know that he was a fervent defender of this Senedd, which meant so much to him, working diligently in the background to promote this institution with real guile.
Today we all remember the fragility of life. One can only imagine the grief and sorrow felt by loved ones, by family and friends, but we hope that Hefin's service to his community and his significant contributions to our discourse as a nation will bring you some solace at this most difficult of times. Heddwch iti, Hefin.
I found preparing for today even more difficult than I expected. I didn't want to sit down to write remarks, and then I realised I had to. It was more difficult, in many ways, than what I said at the crematorium. I thought of the different parts of Hefin's life that I was part of and those that I was not, and the gap that has been left.
Politics, of course, was a big part of Hefin's life, and his life informed his approach to public service, the issues he championed and the improvements he sought within his constituency and country. And we've heard about some of those already. But Hefin's view on the world changed not just when he became a parent, but before that, when Siân became a parent and he became an uncle. It changed his view on the prospects of what you could do as a parent.
As many of us know, being a parent isn't always easy. There are all of those people who tell you about enjoying your sleep and all the different challenges you'll have, and then when it happens, you realise that they weren't lying to you. But also, it can be the most incredible reward, and Hefin loved being a parent. As so many of us know, when he had the opportunity to, he'd talk about his family—and even when he didn't, he still would.
Parenthood informed his view on a number of the challenges that he championed, including those that we've heard, for children with additional learning needs. It was a perspective he took into that work and in more of the challenges that he took on for the learning disability community, too. He didn't just think about his own family or even the support that he received locally from the Sparrows group, and more; he asked questions and he wanted to make a difference because he looked at today and the future, too. That's why he didn't just talk about early years. He focused on employability support and job coaching, as we've all heard, because of his interest in the future for his child and other children like his children, and those who he is never going to know; the longer term outcomes for people and community.
He was proud, of course, of his academic background and his PhD. I always enjoyed referring to him as 'Dr David' in committee or in the Chamber, but he was never boastful about it. His background in research and academia influenced his approach to policy and to practice, to making a difference, because he always wanted to be a practical politician to make a difference with and for people. That's why it mattered so much when he did speak. And the fact that he spoke so openly about his own challenges meant that there were parents not just within his community but around the country who could identify the life that he was describing and why he thought it mattered. It mattered for the people who we serve, but also for the good-faith way he engaged with people in other parties. And it's good to hear that already expressed today as well.
That could also be seen in the way that he addressed a number of challenges, from Owain's law to the shape of the economy to the issues that he wanted to take on and see Wales improve. He had much more to give from the work that he had already done: the work he did on skills and apprenticeships—a report that is still influencing the Welsh Government's approach; the near-completed work on making the most of the metro across the Valleys. This was someone who mattered and will still matter in this place and beyond. And he thoroughly enjoyed being a Commissioner. I was really pleased to hear the Llywydd mention that in her own remarks.
Hefin's family were, and of course are, well known locally, both parents being councillors and teachers, his father being a headteacher, so it must have been hard when people always knew who your parents were and what you could and couldn't get away with. I've had the chance to spend more time with his parents recently, and that has been hard, but it's also been a source of comfort, and, regularly, of laughter. There are always amusing stories about Hefin.
There was competition within the family, too, as Hefin and Wynne were ward colleagues on the council. I should note that Hefin ate into Wynne's personal vote, but was still seven votes adrift the last time they stood together. I'm sure that had nothing to do, though, with the incident that Wayne David recounted in the crematorium of when Wynne was physically being grappled by a member of the public in a not-so-friendly manner, and Hefin chose to film it for social media rather than intervene. I should point out, though, that their other ward colleagues suddenly found that they had something very important to do in the car. So, actually, Hefin was still on hand if it got out of hand.
As we've heard, Hefin loved social media. I've been reminded regularly about how much he enjoyed Facebook Live, but also during the pandemic when he tried to persuade me to regularly go on there and I indicated I had other things to do. But he used that as a genuine tool not just to broadcast messages but to communicate and to listen. Hefin was also reminded that from time to time, social media can get you into difficulty. But he bore that with good grace, and one of the things he did was he was prepared to apologise when he thought he was wrong. He was prepared to recognise that there were times you need to say sorry to maintain good faith and good grace. And good grace was part of Hefin, not just because he was a smart dresser. I'm delighted to hear that recognised across the Chamber, too. It's not a trait that every Member who has graced this place has shared.
I did, though, in the course of my conversations about more of his life, find out a truly shocking revelation. He's a serving Beard of Wales, but he dyed his beard—not silver, as I have, but it was ginger that he didn't want to show. He didn't think it would match his hair. And yet, actually, all those different parts of his life show there is not just one thing about someone. There's that amusement, that kindness. And I have been struck by the stories that people have told within and outside this Chamber of the different things that he did, of his genuine kindness to opponents as well as colleagues, to constituents and others.
That isn't always recognised when we look at politicians, when we look at why people do things and why we serve, why we put up with things, why we want to make a difference. Not all of us are always kind, but Hefin managed to agree and disagree with people. He managed to do that because he understood you can't stand up for what you believe in and agree with everyone else all the time. And that meant making the case that wasn't always popular—not always popular with opposition Members or, indeed, Ministers, when he was giving his honest view about the issues of the day.
What he didn't do, though, was to deliberately seek conflict and division for its own end. He was genuine, whether he was annoyed or pleased, and in his acts of private kindness. He was loyal to Welsh Labour, but not afraid to speak his mind within and, from time to time, outside group meetings. He certainly had a turn of phrase to make his point, as we saw regularly in the Chamber, on social media and through his regular slot on Sharp End.
I've expressed this before, but Hefin was a talented communicator—one to one, in the Chamber, from a platform, in front of the media. Not every one of us who wants to be a public representative is at ease with that communication as he was. More than work, a regular conversation with Rob Osborne and the opportunity to make a difference to Wales and cross-party respect in the Senedd, he found and made friends that he shared part of his life with. And I'm genuinely fortunate to be one of those—to know and to understand not just his sense of humour, but how much he cared about so many of us.
And, of course, it led him to find Vikki Howells, although I found out that Hefin had a problem with Vikki when they first met, because Vikki used to be a teacher and there were people in her school who understood that she was going to stand for election. Hefin was knocking on doors in the community and they said, 'No, we're voting for this other woman, this woman called Vikki, who's standing for the Labour Party.' And so when he first met her, he said, 'What's going on?' A funny way, and a funny introduction, but a recognition of your life before politics that carries on. Finding Vikki as a partner, though, came through this Senedd. I remember, when they became a couple, how happy he was and how regularly he told me how happy he was—sometimes a little too much. [Laughter.] But that time, together, the ups and downs in being a partnership, and the last time I saw them, you could not wish for a greater image of partnership and happiness.
None of us can know everything in someone else's life. We've all recounted how much he cared about his family and his community and this Senedd. He was intelligent, funny and respected across our Parliament. Whilst he leaves a gap that will not be easily filled, for me, his chair will never be empty. I will still see him in it, regardless of who has the privilege to serve his community. He made a difference for our country and our lives, and we are all the better for it. Goodbye, friend.
On behalf of the Welsh Liberal Democrats, we extend our deepest condolences to his family, to Vikki, his children, to his sister and husband, niece and nephew, all of his family and friends and community that I know are with us here today. To the First Minister and your team here in the Senedd, I extend our deepest, deepest sadness to you on your loss.
I know there are many things that I could talk about. I'd only known Hefin for four years, but I focused on three things: his compassion, his commitment and that he was Caerphilly-focused. His compassion: he was dedicated to his work, particularly, as we've heard, in relation to children with additional learning needs. He spoke about his daughter with love and compassion, and that shone through every time he mentioned her. His compassion also extended to other young people with learning disabilities. It was so apparent in so many ways. I remember a panel that Sioned, James, Hefin and myself were on, and Hefin had this real clear ability to reach out to those in the audience, with a deep sense of understanding for people who struggled. Hefin's compassion for causes he believed in was never to be doubted. His compassion for the things he believed in went at 100 mph.
He was Caerphilly-focused. It was clear that Hefin wanted to make sure the voices of people in Caerphilly were heard, not just in the Siambr, but in other areas too. I remember being in a round-table meeting with Hefin around two years ago with a resident who had been tragically attacked by a dog, and he facilitated that resident in being able to talk about it. But also, Hefin, more importantly, wanted to present solutions. I reached out to friends in Caerphilly ahead of this, and this is what one of them said: 'Whenever I spoke with Hefin, he was an absolute gentleman, and although we didn't share the same political views, he treated me with encouragement and respect, always conducting himself with dignity.' As well as campaigning on issues close to his heart, such as access to education and support to those with special educational needs, he would use his influence to make small changes. As we've heard, one of those that was really impactful was amending the No. 50 bus route, so that people in Caerphilly could go to the Royal Gwent Hospital. And with greyhound racing, his clear focus, as we know, was ensuring the one last track in Caerphilly was not abandoned but could benefit his residents. Caerphilly has lost a strong voice in Hefin.
Finally, his commitment: there was nothing about Hefin that was half-hearted. He wore his heart on his sleeve. His commitment and admiration for you, Vikki, was apparent to us all. I remember one occasion when we sat on the back row in the old Siambr, and I looked over to you speaking, Vikki, and then to Hefin, who was looking at you. He was looking at you with love and admiration. Hefin was collegiate, co-operative and co-conspiratorial at times as well. [Laughter.] A memory I have of him was, again, when we sat in the old Siambr, and I was sitting next to him in the aisle, and sometimes it was like being next door to somebody in an exam hall, because he would talk and comment to me when we were supposed to be listening. And as a new Senedd Member, I was thinking, 'We're going to get into trouble here.' I was convinced that we were going to get caught out, but Hefin carried on. I remember there was a time when Buffy mentioned to me—she said, in the old Siambr, she had Alun Davies on one side and Hefin on the other, and her comment was, 'What hope do I have?' [Laughter.]
Dapper, polite, listening and always ready to support. This is what I will remember about Hefin. And I will finish with this: when I arrived in the Senedd as a sole Member, when we were all allowed back after COVID, Hefin came up to me and he said, 'I am really glad you are here. I am really glad, Jane, that the Liberal Democrats have representation here.' Hefin was a pluralist, somebody who saw the strengths and positives of this Senedd, working together, listening and achieving things as a unified group, and we know that is needed now more than ever. So, let that be our dedication to Hefin: to work together, to listen, to achieve as one unified group. Diolch yn fawr, Hefin. We will miss you.
With the passing of our friend and our colleague, Hefin, we all have to think about the man that was. We have to think about Vikki and the family that he left behind, that he so dearly loved. There has been, rightly, an outpouring of grief, and the loss is shared right across this Chamber. That loss has been shared with his constituents, the causes he campaigned for, and the wider world that he touched. He had incredible humour, incredible conviction and boundless energy. He would message me amongst other people, first thing, maybe, in the morning, and definitely last thing at night, because he'd remembered something and he wanted to share it, and he would want to share it in the moment that he remembered it. That was funny at times. I would thank him for his messages, thank him for waking me up, whether that was waking me up early in the morning or waking me up from sleep in the evening. I think that is why we loved him. I remember one of those messages that I had—I think it was about seven or half past seven in the morning—and he was giving me a lift that evening, as he had done many times, to announce that he'd cleaned the car, and, 'No, Joyce, you won’t have to pick the sweets off the seat before you sit down or take the rubbish out of the way, because I've sorted it.' That, really, was who he was. 'He was grounded' is what I'm trying to say. And, of course, his children were absolutely everything to him, and he fought tooth and nail to bring that experience that he had, that he was living, into the public arena, but to make sure that all children, whoever they were, had the very best in terms of additional learning needs, care and support. And that is the memory, I think, that we will all have, and that those communities that he spoke for are not forgotten. We owe that to him, and we certainly owe it to them.
We know that his journey ended far too soon, but his legacy has to continue, it has to guide us, and we have to do right by him. I'm going to remember Hefin by the picture that he sent me of his children and him smiling and laughing, and that is the thought that I will be taking forward as I move on.
As chair of the Welsh Conservative group, I'm grateful for the opportunity to pay tribute to our colleague, our friend, Hefin David. Hefin was, above all else, an excellent parliamentarian. He worked tirelessly across party lines, always guided by principle and by the people he represented. He had a real gift for giving a voice, not just to his own constituents of Caerphilly, for whom he cared for so deeply, but to people from across Wales on the issues that he cared most deeply about.
I had the privilege of serving alongside Hefin on committee. As a new Member, I was grateful for his modesty and encouragement. He created space for me to throw myself into the issues I was passionate about, such as agriculture. But at the same time, Hefin truly came into his own when scrutinising skills policy, apprenticeships and access to work. His knowledge, diligence and compassion always shone through.
We both appeared on the last episode of Sharp End before the summer recess, and Hefin was given the opportunity to even present a link, something that he'd always said he wished he could do from times we'd been on there previously. Indeed, in another life, I'm sure he'd have made an excellent television presenter. The calibre of Hefin is that, after that episode, a day or so later, he texted me to say how much he had enjoyed being on Sharp End with myself and Llyr. He wished me well for the Royal Welsh Show, calling it my Glastonbury, and said how excited he was to be going on holiday to Benidorm. I was so touched that he would text me out of the blue that I even showed that message to my mother, to which she replied, 'Yes, it looks like you both get on well.'
When I was first elected, I will never forget watching Hefin speak in the Chamber without a single note in front of him. I remember thinking to myself, 'I wish I could be more like Hefin.' And perhaps that is his legacy. In his parliamentary skills, in the respect he earned from every corner of this Chamber, and in the way he approached this enormous privilege of representing the people of Wales, he set an example. So, maybe we can all honour him best by striving, each in our own way, to be a little bit more like Hefin. Diolch.
Hefin and I represented different parties in this Senedd, but we shared the Caerphilly area. We worked together on many issues, and I will miss him. One of the many things we had in common was our love of the Rhymney valley. We were both born in Caerphilly miners' hospital, roughly 10 years apart, and whereas I grew up in Ystrad Mynach, Hefin was raised up the road in Penpedairheol. We both went to school in Bargoed. He went to Heolddu and I to Cwm Rhymni. Throughout our lives, our paths have met and criss-crossed over the towns and villages of the valley we both loved.
The first political interview I gave was alongside Hefin in 2016, on Sharp End. We were both candidates for the Senedd that year, and he was so kind to me after the interview, hoping we'd both be elected. And when I did come to the Senedd after we lost Steffan in 2019, Hefin was one of the first to welcome me. My most recent political interview, only a few weeks ago, was also alongside Hefin, on the last Politics Wales of the summer term. In the break before we went on air, Hefin had been showing me photographs of his daughters playing in a paddling pool that he was very pleased that he had bought them. It was the middle of a heatwave. He delighted in his daughters always. Almost every conversation I had with him featured Caitlin and Holly.
And yes, over the years, we've had different angles on different issues, but even when we disagreed on any matter, often outside the Chamber, we would meet to talk through how we could look to bridge those differences, to find a way through. I know Peredur and so many others of us found that too. In 2019, when I was selected to fight the Caerphilly seat for Plaid Cymru, I sent Hefin a message explaining what had happened and hoping there would be some issues where we would still be campaigning together, hoping we'd still get on as we always had. He sent me the most lovely reply, congratulating me and saying, 'Yes, you can't let politics get in the way of friendship.'
My most enduring memory of Hefin, though, will be from a few months before we lost him, when we both attended a workshop being run in a local community hall. A well-being group was showcasing some of the techniques they'd be using in their new classes, and we had been invited to try them out. So, we tried breathing exercises, meditation, and then we were invited to walk around the room laughing deliberately. Now, at first, everyone was tentative, a bit self-conscious. They were trying to force the giggles to come out. It was a bit awkward. But then suddenly it changed, and soon everyone in the room was laughing more than we could control. The more you saw another person laughing, how bizarre—even ridiculous—it seemed, the more you yourself laughed. It became a delirious, inescapable laughter, echoing round and round the corners of that community hall. I saw Hefin then, and we stopped, facing one another, each pointing and laughing at the other. Soon, we were doubled over, hands on each other's arms, laughing so much that our sides were hurting, our eyes were watering, wincing, almost in pain, laughing like the laughter would never stop. Gosh, but I'd like us to laugh like that again. And that will be my memory of Hefin, the image I will try to keep with me.
I am so sorry that we've lost you, Hefin, but in this Senedd, and across our valley, you will be missed, and I wish you peace, perfect peace.
Whenever we meet someone in life, before we've even spoken, we're looking for cues. We're looking for indicators that that person has two key qualities, and it all relates to evolution. We're looking for non-verbal indicators that they are compassionate and competent, and this is particularly the case when we look at the people elected to serve. Hefin had both in abundance. He was the epitome of competence. He was the embodiment of compassion. He had a true understanding of the feelings of his constituents, a recognition and an acceptance of their frustrations, an empathy that shaped the way that he challenged us in Government to deliver better services, a better and fairer society, and, perhaps above all, the need to give opportunity to every single person, young and old, throughout their lives.
I'd like to thank the Senedd Commission, too, for the care, kindness and decency shown to Hefin's family, friends, Members and staff. Hefin was immensely proud to be a Senedd Commissioner. I know how hard he worked in the role and how it gave him purpose. It demanded his depth, his energy, in a most positive way.
He wasn't privileged. He wasn't entitled in any way, shape or form. He believed, perhaps more than anyone else in this Chamber, in the power of education and skills to change the course of a person's life for the better. And he experienced education as all people in Caerphilly experience it, and he excelled. He emerged enlightened, passionate, full of purpose, inquisitive and keen to go on learning through the rest of his life.
In early Victorian times, Charles Dickens introduced us to two wretched children from beneath the gown of the ghost of Christmas present. They were representing social injustice, the roots of division and social decay. One was a girl, and she was called Want. The other was a boy; his name was Ignorance. He was presented as particularly dangerous to the world, and fighting those twin threats of greed and ignorance are what drove Hefin in his career—ignorance in particular, a wretched presence in our society still to this day. I do believe that we should ensure that Hefin's legacy is one that empowers people to thrive, to encourage learning and understanding, to be humble rather than conceited, and to serve rather than seek to be served.
Hefin was a brilliant advocate for the south Wales metro. We last spoke just last month about the work he was leading in maximising the benefits of investment in the metro. His recommendations—in the early stages, albeit—were genius, and that work will be completed. His recommendations will be implemented, and Transport for Wales, who were so well represented at Hefin's funeral, are looking at naming a train after our friend and colleague. It'll be a play on his name—perhaps 'Hefin's Gate', 'Knocking on Hefin's Door', or, best of all, 'David defeats Goliath', as he always sought to defeat that wretched monster of want and ignorance.
Hefin was my friend. He was no fair-weather friend; he was a friend when I really needed one. He was loyal. He could be incredibly kind. When breaking point was near, a text from Hefin would always lift the spirits, and I will never forget that. After seeing some fiery pre-election exchanges on social media between Hefin and Plaid activists, to put it mildly, I had some doubts about this Hefin David. But my brother was adamant that I would like Hefin, and he was right. I was fortunate to spend hours in his time socially, over a coffee or a pint. We talked about all things, the silly, the serious and everything in between. These last few weeks, I have smiled, shaken my head, cried and laughed out loud whilst remembering our conversations.
It's been mentioned by others that he was an immaculate dresser—a three-piece suit in the Senedd—and I'm wearing a waistcoat in tribute to him today. He was a passionate speaker; unlike the rest of us, Hefin was no reader of scripts. His contributions could sometimes shock us, would often make us laugh, but were always full of concern for others.
Now, we can all agree that we live in strange times. Hefin was Labour through and through, but he wasn't blinded by party politics. He always had an interesting insight. This Senedd and our communities need politicians like Hefin David, a person who loved the Caerphilly constituency, a person who advocated for those who the world often forgets, and a person who tried to see the best and not the worst in others. I will miss him, and my deepest sympathies go to Vikki, his dear parents, to Caitlin and Holly, and his sister Siân. Like Hefin, I have two young daughters, and I, like others of you here, didn't have to be in his company long before he showed photos or videos or talked about Caitlin and Holly. I had the honour of seeing Hefin with Caitlin and Holly. He was a fantastic father, a loving father. He was proud of them, and that love will continue throughout the years.
I wanted to put on record today my sadness at the fact that I have lost probably the Member I have worked most closely with cross-party since being elected. It's a new and strange experience, when you get elected, to learn how to work with Members of other political colours, coming out of that fervent, tribal campaign that gets you there in the first place, and it's important to learn why it's such an important thing to do, an important way to effect change.
My mother taught children with learning disabilities, so I grew up knowing the children in her class as friends and peers, understanding the challenges they faced and the frustrations their families and those who were determined to help them reach their potential and be treated fairly by society felt. And Hefin, of course, had that same passion, such a deep commitment, and an unequalled deeper understanding of this as a father. As chair of the cross-party group on learning disability, and Plaid Cymru spokesperson on equalities, I was so grateful for his willingness and eagerness to work together on those issues that mattered to us. It was an odd experience for a newly elected politician like myself to be treated as a sister-in-arms, to be shown respect and warmth despite our many political differences on other matters. I just wanted to say 'diolch' for that, Hefin, for being one of the first to show me how that can be done and why it should be done.
He would always end our many cross-party panels by telling disabled people, people with learning disabilities and/or autism, that they had strong voices advocating for them in their Senedd in him, in people like myself and Mark Isherwood, and others, of course. Many of those people have contacted me, devastated at losing that strong champion. I want to promise them and Hefin that their fight for rights and well-being will continue. Cwsg mewn hedd, Hefin.
Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership
Llywydd, politics is far from easy. Politics, and indeed this place, can be stressful and a competitive place. From almost the moment I was elected, back in 2018, I sought out Hefin's company, not because he was a fellow politician in this place, but because he was a friend. He was a friend of mine; he was a friend of my family's. He was someone who listened without judging. He was funny, he was kind, but, most importantly, he cared. Hefin was great company, and I will always cherish the time that we spent together.
Llywydd, as we've heard already, it was always family that was closest to Hefin's heart. Like others have said before me, and indeed before today—and, indeed, it was so eloquently said at his funeral—Hefin loved his family. He was so proud of his family. As we know, he talked about them always, and his love always shone through, as did his love for our friend and colleague Vikki. I want to say to all of them how very sorry I am for their loss.
Llywydd, the other great love of Hefin's life was, of course, the community of Caerphilly, and we've already heard, haven't we, how much of a passionate advocate he was for that community. From the moment you met him, or from the moment you were introduced to him, you couldn't fail to realise how proud Hefin was to represent the community that he was from, the community that had shaped him, but just how eager he was to give all he could back. And we know in this Chamber that Hefin did this in his own eloquent and intelligent style. He was a great speaker. He was never shy of using that passionate voice to hold power to account on behalf of his community and our country.
I had the pleasure of seeing this first-hand many times, but, for me, it was in front of the Senedd Petitions Committee, the committee that I chaired at the time, that was the perfect example. Hefin spoke passionately about the need for leaseholder reform, and nobody left that meeting in any doubt that Hefin was right.
Llywydd, those of us who knew Hefin well will also remember fondly his quirky side, his encyclopaedic knowledge of Tenerife. He knew every nook of the island, and he enjoyed nothing more than sharing that expertise with others. Once he got started, Llywydd, you just couldn’t stop him.
Llywydd, I’m privileged to serve in the role of social partnership Minister within the Welsh Government, and I’m reminded very often, indeed most recently, of Hefin’s encouragement and passion for the trade union movement. Hefin was particularly proud to be the secretary of the Unison group here in the Senedd, and on behalf of our movement, I have to say 'thank you' to him, because our movement, the trade union movement, is stronger because of him.
Llywydd, I will miss Hefin. I will miss my mate. Caerphilly and Cymru are better for his service. I know his legacy will continue to inspire those of us who have had the privilege to work alongside him and have had the privilege to call him a friend. Diolch.
Thank you, all, for your contributions. And as we return to our daily work, let’s all carry a little bit of Hefin David into our everyday politics. Not maybe his waistcoat, but the three Hs of Hefin, as the First Minister said: heart, humour and hope. This Senedd will miss Hefin David, and we will not forget you.
We will now reconvene. And before I invite the First Minister to answer questions, I wish to inform the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 26.75, that the Disused Mine and Quarry Tips (Wales) Act 2025 was given Royal Assent on 11 September.
North Wales is the beating heart of our visitor economy, welcoming one in three overnight trips to Wales. From family-run bed-and-breakfasts to the world-class attractions that it hosts, local businesses are growing sustainably and creating jobs, helping communities right across the region. And this Welsh Labour Government is backing growth in the tourism sector by investing over £2.5 million in local firms, helping communities to thrive and creating new jobs and opportunities for people right across the region.
Thank you for your response, First Minister. I join you in recognising how undeniably important to the Welsh economy tourism is, in particular in north Wales, as you recognise, also where it supports thousands of jobs and plays a vital role in local prosperity. As we know, the sector accounts for around one in eight jobs, contributing significantly to GVA. Yet, despite its importance, we continue to see policies that actively undermine the sector, and, as a result of this, in north Wales the picture is especially concerning. I have reported to me, as chair of the cross-party group on tourism, that over 70 per cent of attractions in the region have reported fewer visitors this summer, with some resorts seeing business fall by as much as 30 per cent. For a region so reliant on seasonal trade, these figures are deeply troubling. Tourism businesses in Wales need our support. So, I ask: First Minister, does the Welsh Government recognise the damaging role that policies like the 182-day rule, underinvestment in marketing and the looming tourism levy are having on businesses like these?
Well, we're determined for our tourism sector to grow for good in a sustainable way and, in order for that to happen, it's really important that we balance the needs of visitors with the needs of local communities, and that's partly what we are trying to do with the visitor levy. What people should be aware of is that 90 per cent of that revenue that is raised will stay in the local community, and it's up to local authorities to determine whether they want to use that opportunity or not. Of course, that will be reinvested then in tourism-related issues and facilities. On the 182 days, I think it is important that property owners make a fair contribution to the economy. Once again, this is about making sure that we get the balance right between the needs of the communities and the need to maximise the use of those properties so that they contribute to the local community.
You have just said, First Minister, that you feel it's important that there should be a balance between the needs of visitors and tourists and the needs of local communities, and I couldn't agree more. But the question that everyone in north-east Wales is asking is how the creation of a new national park is going to ensure that that happens. The major question is: where is the investment in the infrastructure required to make such a proposal a success? We've seen the problems in areas such as Eryri, where there are extreme traffic problems. The road and parking infrastructure isn't in place, which means that ambulances can't get to where they need to be very often. There are also problems with the lack of campsites. There are all sorts of infrastructure challenges. Now, we can see this coming from afar. There will also be problems in north-east Wales. So, what commitment can you give to invest in the necessary infrastructure before progressing with any idea of creating a new national park?
Thank you very much. There is a consultation being undertaken at present. The fact is that the three national parks that are already in existence attract 12 million visitors and they spend £1 billion, which, of course, helps those communities. So, it is important that people respond to that consultation and take the opportunity to have their say on how that's going to affect their communities and to see whether there is an appetite to see this happening.
First Minister, as we’ve heard, the visitor economy is absolutely key to our economy in north Wales. I’m pleased to have played my own personal part, spending my summer holidays on Ynys Môn, as I have done for decades now. But central to unlocking our economy is being able to get to and from north Wales, and that main artery into north Wales is the A55. Sadly, there has been a series of serious accidents on the A55 over the summer, largely around junction 32 in my constituency. Obviously, first and foremost, our thoughts are with those directly impacted, but there is a knock-on effect for surrounding communities and for visiting north Wales. I know that the Welsh Government is committed to improving existing road infrastructure, and I’ve raised suggestions in this place previously, but can I just press the Welsh Government and urge you in terms of prioritising and bringing forward mitigating measures and enhancements where needed? Diolch.
Thanks very much. We know how frustrating it is for people who are held up in accidents, and I’m really sorry to hear about those accidents—two quite significant accidents—that had a major impact on people visiting the area and local people. What we try and do is make sure that there is very clear monitoring. We operate a year-round traffic officer and we make sure that there are live updates, and we also make sure that diversions are clearly marked. Of course, we’ve allocated £30 million of additional funding to ease congestion in north Wales, so that should help as well.
Thanks very much. I don't know if anybody—. I remember being told once that someone was deliberately put behind a pillar; I'm sure that that is not the case for you [Laughter.]
Our priorities are clear: jobs, fairness and a greener future. The Welsh Labour Government is delivering across Wales, from clean energy in advanced manufacturing to growing the digital economy. Over the course of this Senedd term, the Welsh Government has secured and created over 40,000 jobs and we're on target also to deliver 100,0000 apprenticeships. When it comes to investment from abroad, we're ahead of most of the rest of the UK. And, of course, on top of that, we're giving real job opportunities to 16 to 24-year-olds through Labour's young person's guarantee.
Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. It’s the people who count that are the important ones, aren't they?
First Minister, just before we broke for the summer recess, the rural affairs Minister brought forward the sustainable farming scheme. Agriculture, obviously, underpins a huge swathe of the rural economy. We were told that the impact assessment that accompanies that sustainable farming scheme would be available in September. When will that now be available? Are you in a position to tell us if the timetable will stick and we will have it by the end of September?
Thanks very much. The Deputy First Minister has shared some information already with his ministerial round-table on this issue, and that includes representatives of farming unions, environmental non-governmental organisations and other organisations. So, we’re in the final stages of packaging that information up and we will be publishing that very soon for everybody to see. We know what impact this is going to have on rural communities. We know that the agricultural sector is going to have to adjust and adapt and we recognise that they will need to know what impact it will have. And, of course, lots of them took the opportunity to use the ready reckoner that was produced at the time of the Royal Welsh Show to see how it would affect their farms individually.
First Minister, you’ve announced that growing the green economy is a priority for your Government, but, in March of this year, the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee’s 'Green Economy' report highlighted concerns about skills shortages, with the Federation of Small Businesses particularly highlighting a mismatch between skills in the education system and business needs, stemming from a lack of foresight in anticipating skills requirements and a failure to adequately adapt vocational education and training to address the evolving needs of the labour market. It’s very clear that a skills audit is desperately needed and that the skills and business support landscape needs reforming. In fact, the Government’s own net-zero action plan states this, so how are you going to turn this around?
Well, we recognise that there are massive opportunities when it comes to the green economy, and it's really important that we take advantage of that and that we adjust our training to make sure that there are opportunities. That's why the skills Minister is absolutely all over this issue. He is making sure that colleges are aware of the needs of the community and that we respond to the needs of industry.
I think it's probably worth recognising that things that you might not think of as green skills actually become green skills. So, welding, for example, apparently, is a major skill that the green industry needs, but you wouldn't think of that automatically as a green skill, but it's absolutely essential when it comes to things like turbines. So, there are opportunities, and I know that the Minister responsible is very aware of the need to make sure that we are ready and training people up, and our youth guarantee, of course, will feed into that as well.
Boosting economic prosperity and improving the communities in which people live, work and visit are absolutely key roles for any Government, and there are tangible examples of Welsh Government investment making a positive difference in my constituency of Wrexham, specifically in the city centre. Much of the improvement has come via the Transforming Towns funding, and that aims to help communities to revitalise their high streets, which, of course, are very important for our constituents.
Wrexham has secured more than £10 million through this scheme, and I was really pleased to see that the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government visited Wrexham during the summer to see some of the projects for herself. Two of our much-loved indoor markets have been refurbished, there have been improvements on the high street, and soon Wales's first football museum will open, and we've got a new creative hub at the Old Library also. Over the summer, the Welsh Government demonstrated that the Transforming Towns programme is a priority for you when it allocated an additional £17 million to the fund for this financial year, meaning that even more projects will take place. I do hope that Wrexham will once again benefit, and I'd be grateful for an update.
Well, thanks very much, and can I say that lots of us visited Wrexham over the summer? I congratulate the town for hosting what was an incredibly successful National Eisteddfod, and I hope everybody really enjoyed themselves, as did I. It was wonderful to see how Wrexham is changing; it's developing and it's taking advantage of the fact that we are, as a Government, investing significant amounts of money in town centres.
It's been a pleasure to visit that indoor market in the past to see how already it’s making a difference. It is a place where people congregate now, and it is a place where people want to go and come together. You're quite right—we’ve put that additional money in, when it comes to Transforming Towns, and that’s because people told us, over and over again, that—. Actually, developing our town centres was something that came up time and time again last summer, when I did that listening exercise—that’s what they were telling us. We're responding to that, it’s making a difference and people are seeing transformation in their town centres.
Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, over the summer, my Welsh Conservative colleagues and I have been pounding the streets, knocking on doors, attending events and listening to what the Welsh public has to say. One issue came up time and time again in those conversations: the dire state of the Welsh NHS, ambulance delays, overcrowded emergency departments with long waits for treatment, a lack of beds in our hospitals, difficulties getting GP and dental appointments, and unacceptable waiting times for diagnostic tests and treatment. Do you accept, First Minister, that, on Labour's watch, the Welsh NHS is broken?
No, I absolutely don’t. I don’t think a system that has 2.7 million appointments every single month in a population of 3 million people is a system that’s broken; I think it’s a system that is working for the vast, vast majority of people in this country. Do we need more? Of course we need more. Do we need it to work better? Of course we do. That’s why it is a priority area for us as a Government. That is why we've invested £1.5 billion of extra money in Welsh public services, and a huge amount of that money went towards the NHS, specifically towards bringing those longest waiting lists down, and, over the course of the year, that is happening. It is making a difference. I was pleased to announce just this weekend an extra £5.5 million for x-ray machines in Betsi Cadwaladr, which will speed up the process. So, we recognise there's work to be done.
Let me tell you that the demand on the service is unbelievable. Just over August, the increase was about 20 per cent in some areas in terms of trying to get access to the NHS. There is a limit when you have a limited pot of money. It is challenging. We'll do our best. We are employing more people than we've ever employed before in the NHS. We've increased the numbers significantly. When you look at the fact that the vast majority of people are getting a service, I think that we should celebrate that, but recognise there's always more to do.
First Minister, I would like to remind you that it's your responsibility to make sure that the Welsh NHS has the capacity to keep up with the demands being placed upon it, which are entirely predictable given the demographics that we have here in Wales. In spite of the hard work of those dedicated front-line NHS staff, the reality is that you have been letting them and patients down. More than 600,000 people in Wales are currently left languishing on NHS waiting lists.
What is really tragic is this: there was a series of Welsh Conservative freedom of information requests that went in, and over the summer, we received the responses. Since May 2021, since that last Senedd election, over 38,000 Welsh patients have died whilst waiting to get their treatment, whilst on a waiting list. It is a national scandal. And what's worse is the fact that our waiting times for tests and treatment are still the worst in Britain. Thousands more people across Wales are at risk of the same fate as those 38,000 who've already died. Will you now take seriously our call, given these deaths, to declare a health emergency, so that we can make sure that the people of Wales get the service that they need when they're in life-and-death situations?
Thanks very much. If we'd have left it to you, there would have been even less money going towards the NHS, because you tried to block the budget from going through. [Interruption.] You don't like it, but it's true. We're investing £120 million in cutting waiting times. And there are people on those lists that have incredibly complex and difficult situations. A lot of them are very old. And clearly, there will be people who are on there who have very challenged health situations. What we did see in June was a 27 per cent decrease in the number of people waiting more than two years for treatment. That is something that I think should be celebrated. Also, the number of people waiting for their first out-patient appointment decreased significantly as well.
First Minister, your own finance Minister in the past has said that there are too many beds and too many hospitals in Wales. And I would like to remind you that your party is the only party in Government in my lifetime to have ever actually cut an NHS budget. That's the Labour Party's record here in Wales. It's very clear to everybody across this country that the Welsh NHS is broken. And it's broken because of decisions that the Labour Party has made, with the support of Plaid Cymru very often, in terms of the decisions and priorities that you have set. Instead of patients, you've focused on tinkering around with the constitution. Instead of more operations, you've focused on more politicians. Instead of speeding up access to tests and treatment, you've focused on reducing speed limits. We are clear, and the people of Wales are clear: Wales needs more doctors, dentists, nurses and teachers. It does not need more politicians. So, will you now declare that health emergency, get your priorities right and fix our Welsh NHS?
Thanks very much. Almost anybody who has anything to do with health understands that one of the biggest challenges in relation to health is actually the relationship with care. We do need to invest in the care service. That is why we, as a Government, have made sure that we pay the real living wage to care workers in Wales. It is important to recognise that they have a major contribution in terms of getting the flow through the hospital. So, we have put more money into social care, and most people recognise that that is the right thing to do. I think it is also important to recognise that our priorities are to respond to the priorities of the public. It is to make sure that we bring down the longest waiting list, it is to fill potholes in our streets, it is to make sure we build homes for our communities, and it is to make sure that we improve local transport links. Those are the things that we're focused on, that's what we're delivering on, and that's why it will be important for people to support us going forward.
Diolch, Llywydd. This week marks 28 years, would you believe, since the people of Wales said ‘yes’ to a Parliament of our own. Despite the broad consensus that devolution would be a process and not an event, the current Labour Prime Minister appears to disagree, and of course prominent members of the Conservatives and Reform still want to take our Parliament away and deny Wales its voice at all. Devolution is standing still under this Labour UK Government. The First Minister's position, made clear in interviews again over the weekend, is to just double down on things that she has responsibility for. I say she should push for more. Defending the interests of Wales by securing fair funding for our nation is surely one of the primary functions of this First Minister. With that in mind, will she tell us when was the last time she called out Keir Starmer's lack of movement on fair funding, and how did he respond?
Thanks very much. My priorities are going to be the priorities that were set for me when I first became First Minister. I think the daily lives of people and how we improve them is what we should be focused on, rather than constantly looking at constitutional changes, which seems to be the obsession of his party. What is important, of course, is that we ask for more. I will always ask for more from whatever Government there is in the United Kingdom. I know that the finance Secretary has been in discussions with the Treasury about fair funding, and I will continue that discussion as well.
Pursuing fair funding isn't a constitutional issue, is it? I don't think I'm saying anything new in saying that there's a link between that overall funding package and the ability to deliver good public services.
It's a year ago this week that the First Minister proudly said that Keir Starmer was, and I quote, ‘in listening mode’ when it comes to fair funding for Wales. The First Minister also said that she'd raised the issue with the Chancellor, who for the time being at least remains in post. And we are in the run-up, of course, to her next budget now, the most important time to make the case for Wales at a UK level. This budget is Labour's opportunity to prove once and for all that it is serious about addressing the way in which the Welsh Government is resourced.
Plaid Cymru's motion, the First Minister will remember, to scrap the Barnett formula had the unanimous backing of this Senedd before the summer. Given the Prime Minister was in listening mode 12 months ago, I ask a second time: what update has Keir Starmer recently shared with the First Minister on his attitude towards fair funding for Wales? Is he changing his mind?
Let's be clear that we will constantly make the case. This is not a new thing; it's something that's happened for decades. I thought it was a tour de force that Mark Drakeford gave in explaining how the Barnett formula works. It's actually far more complex than many people realise, particularly since we've got a funding floor. So, we've just got to make sure that, whatever happens, if there is a change, it is a change that works in our favour.
You've got to recognise along with everybody else that, actually, if you are going to change that, you have to get the support not just of the UK Government, but also Scotland and Northern Ireland as well. And they do very well from this current formula. So, let's be clear: you could probably have a word and see what you could do to speak to your colleague in the SNP to see if he might like to relinquish some of the money that he has to make sure that we get some of that.
What I can tell you is that last week we sealed the Bill in relation to coal tip communities, and I'm really pleased that what we've had is not just now a Bill that will secure, we hope, the future for those communities, making sure that we monitor those coalfield communities very well, but also £220 million that has come both from us and from the UK Labour Government. We asked for that under the Tories; we didn't get it. We have had that delivered and that will make a difference. We are employing people in those communities, and that is something that I think a Labour Government in Wales should be very proud of.
The First Minister references spending in Scotland. The recent decision by the UK Government gives a better deal to the SNP-led Scottish Government on capital spend than it does to the Labour-led Welsh Government here in Wales. She mentions the tour de force of the finance Cabinet Secretary; it's a bit of a tour de farce, isn't it, when you have a Welsh Government that pulls its punches on fighting for fair funding in order to be able to deliver public services in Wales.
When the Chancellor visited Wales in June after a terrible comprehensive spending review, she said she'd given the Welsh Government everything it had asked for. It was an awful indictment of its lack of ambition. So, with two Labour Governments, Wales continues to be underfunded. Labour knows this. Many of their prominent politicians have said so publicly. They know that this ties the Welsh Government's hands in meeting the challenges that affect people's everyday lives, yet Labour refuses to act. No wonder the people of Wales are losing faith in them and leaving them in droves.
So, my question is simple. Under this now year-old partnership in power, and with the next Senedd election just a little over six months away, will the First Minister commit that the Labour manifesto for that election will include an explicit pledge to scrap the Barnett formula and, crucially, that it will be ratified by Keir Starmer?
We're in a position where we're still working up the manifesto, but we've always said we want to see a reform of the Barnett formula. There's nothing new there. There's nothing revolutionary there. We'll still keep making the case. I think it is important for people in the country to recognise that what we've had is a £1.6 billion uplift as a result of a Labour Government in Westminster, which is transforming lives in this country. Let me remind you once again that this was a budget that you tried to block. We'd have seen significant cuts to our public services had you and your party had their way.
Whilst other parties talk about creating jobs, Welsh Labour actually delivers them. The investment from the Welsh Government in the Swansea bay city deal is unlocking over £1 billion of investment, and creating thousands of jobs across west Wales—quality jobs that will help people with cost-of-living challenges.
First Minister, as you know, one of the key pillars of Pembrokeshire's economy is farming. Over the summer, I spent a great deal of time talking to local farmers about the wave of challenges that the sector is facing at the moment from your Government and, indeed, from the Government in Westminster. As you will know, farming businesses are vital to the local economy. They employ local people and support local supply chains by procuring local goods and services, which, in turn, generates a huge amount of money for the local economy. Therefore, it's extremely worrying to hear that there are proposals being made for an enormous solar park to be established on 316 acres of important farmland in Johnston in my constituency. So, First Minister, will you join me in opposing any proposals for large-scale solar farms on productive agricultural land? It's vital that we don't lose valuable food-producing land in Pembrokeshire, given the sector's clear importance to the local economy.
Thanks very much. We recognise that agriculture has a significant role to play in the economy. I too spent a lot of time in agricultural shows over the summer speaking to many people involved in that sector. I am pleased that we've committed the equivalent of this year's basic payment scheme. It's £238 million for universal payments, so that's good. They are getting the same amount as they've had in the past. When it comes to planning issues, obviously, there's a possibility that they could be called in, so I can't make a statement on that.
Wales has always punched above its weight in defence, from General Dynamics in Merthyr to Airbus in Broughton, providing skilled, well-paid jobs that sustain communities. The sector already contributes £1.5 billion to our economy, and with a defence growth deal on the table, I'm determined to make sure that Wales get its fair share.
I'm grateful to you for that, First Minister. It was a pleasure to join you visiting General Dynamics, in the constituency of our friend Dawn Bowden, in Pentrebach, in the spring. Since that visit, of course, the world has become a more dangerous place. We've seen for the first time for decades, or if ever, Russia attacking NATO countries. We've seen Russia deliberately targeting Poland and targeting the western alliance. It is more important than ever that we invest in the defence of the United Kingdom and of our values and democracy across Europe. Therefore, First Minister, do you agree with me that it is right and proper that, in Wales, we play our part and the Welsh Government leads us in doing so? I think all of us who have interests, who want to see the defence industry grow and succeed in Wales and provide deep roots in this country, must ensure that the Welsh Government has the support available to that industry and to that sector. Would it be possible to meet with the First Minister to discuss how the Welsh Government can improve the support it delivers to the defence sector, and to ensure that the defence sector has the support that it requires to ensure that those investments come to Wales?
Thanks very much, Alun, and thanks for your championing of this sector. I think he's right, we're living in a much more unstable world, and I think the incursions into Poland by Russia have been extremely concerning, and it does mean that we have to recognise that the threat is increasing. And the defence sector provides opportunities for skilled jobs in our communities, as we saw in Merthyr, and it's excellent to see how much they contribute, not just to those workers, but to the broader economy. I think we were there for the hundredth Ajax vehicle coming off the production line in April.
I want to give you a reassurance that the economy Secretary is all over this issue. She is determined to make sure that we get our fair share when it comes to the defence growth deal. She was in the Defence and Security Equipment International conference showcase that happened last week, and had the opportunity to speak directly to people who were involved in this sector, and to make the case for them coming and basing themselves and growing in Wales.
I'm grateful to the Member for Blaenau Gwent for submitting this question today, because it's important not to underestimate both the importance of defence infrastructure and investment in terms of our national security, but also in terms of our economic security as well. Indeed, in this Chamber, I've raised, back in February, May and June, the need for better correspondence or better dialogue from the Welsh Government on what it's doing to support the defence industry here in Wales. I use the phrase that we were in a 'pre-war era', but as we've heard, that pre-war era could soon become a war era. I even wrote to the Secretary of State for Defence on Pembrokeshire's proud military history and the opportunities around infrastructure and investment that rest within that county. But I received a pretty bland reply from the Minister for Defence Procurement and Industry, which only referenced the defence industrial strategy once in that reply. So, as First Minister, what representations have you made to the UK Government on Wales's role within the defence industrial strategy, and would you publish that correspondence?
Thanks very much. We have a very active discussion and dialogue with the relevant department in London. In fact, after the visit to General Dynamics, I wrote to the defence Secretary to make the case for defence in Wales. There are around 285 Wales-based companies employing over 5,700 personnel, that have created 300 apprenticeships, and are contributing over £0.5 billion to our economy. So, this is a reasonable amount already, but I think there are huge opportunities for us to go further. So, I want to reassure you that the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning is very focused on this issue and determined to land further investments, as a result of the defence growth deal, which has been published.
5. Will the First Minister provide an update on the current levels of house building in Wales and the forecast for the rest of this financial year? OQ63083
Having a stable home is fundamental to people's sense of security. That's why we put house building as a centrepiece of the things that we are determined to deliver. Despite Brexit, COVID, rising inflation and Tory chaos, this Welsh Labour Government has delivered for the people of Wales. We've invested over £2 billion in social housing—the highest in nearly two decades—creating thousands of new homes by councils and housing associations.
Figures published by your Government in August show that construction started on 3,798 new dwellings in 2024-25, down 26 per cent on the previous year. Your own press release says this marked the lowest number of new dwelling starts on record, worse even than during the pandemic. The same press release shows that new dwellings completed in Wales last year was 33 per cent down on a decade ago, while it's gone up by almost 10 per cent across the rest of the UK. The figure for new starts is about half the figure we need to build every year according to your own housing needs estimate. Why have you allowed house building in Wales to collapse at a time when there are 94,000 households on a housing waiting list, and what are you going to do about it?
Well, I think we've got to distinguish between the private sector and the social sector, and obviously there is a need to push the private sector to go much further. But when it comes to social housing, in the first three years nearly 9,000 homes for rent were delivered in the social sector. That's the highest annual delivery rate since 2008. We are looking forward to new figures being published in November, and we're very confident that they will increase significantly at that point as well.
First Minister, as we have just heard, last year Wales saw just 4,754 new homes built, the second lowest figure since 1975. This deepening housing crisis is leaving many young people anxious as they struggle to find somewhere to live. While there's a target for social housing, there's no equivalent for open market homes, creating a policy vacuum within the sector. The Competition and Markets Authority has warned in a recent report that in Wales there are far too few homes, unpredictable delivery, and weak, inconsistent targets from local planning authorities. Alarmingly, as you will know, only 30 per cent of local development plans are less than five years old, severely undermining future planning and investment. With this in mind, what action will the Welsh Government take to deliver a clear, ambitious housing strategy across all tenures that meet the needs of all communities? Thank you.
Thanks very much. I think it is important to see what the Welsh Labour Government has done to try and drive and encourage the private sector to develop, and the Development Bank of Wales are making huge efforts in this space, making sure that small and medium-sized enterprises have the ability to build homes. Part of the issue across the United Kingdom is the stranglehold by the major companies, and we need to make sure that they're not sitting on areas where they have planning permission, but they actually build. So, creating a shortage sitting on areas where they're not building is, I think, an issue. It is not just an issue in Wales, it is an issue further afield, but this is certainly something that I've asked the Minister responsible to look at and to see what more we can do to encourage the private sector to build more in Wales.
Stroke is one of Wales's biggest killers, but 90 per cent of strokes are preventable. That's why our plan is bold, and that is better prevention, faster diagnosis and world-class rehabilitation. Our quality statement for stroke set out that ambition in 2021.
Those are ambitions, not plans. When it comes to stroke outcomes, Wales currently ranks 21 out of 26 countries in Europe, with England positioned at 12. Almost three years ago, I led a debate here on stroke services, stating that the Stroke Association has also called for a renewed FAST campaign—face, arms, speech, time—by Public Health Wales to improve awareness of stroke symptoms and urge those experiencing these to call 999 as soon as possible. Almost two years ago I backed a motion here calling for a biennial Act FAST campaign in Wales.
Last year I sponsored and opened the Wales Stroke Association summit in the Senedd, highlighting that stroke is estimated to cost NHS Wales £220 million annually, rising to £2.8 billion by 2035 if no action is taken to mitigate this. How do you therefore respond to calls by the Stroke Association in Wales now to make the transformation of stroke services a programme for government, for a bilingual and biennial Act FAST campaign and for specialist mental health support for stroke survivors?
Thanks very much. And you're quite right to outline the fact that, actually, the number of people who have strokes in Wales—. There are 70,000 survivors of strokes in Wales, but we expect that number to rise dramatically in future years, so we need to try and get ahead of this issue. Prevention, as I say, is key to that. What we know is that the sooner you're treated, the better the chance there is of recovery. So, for every second that the blood to the brain is cut off, every minute means that more blood cells die.
But things are improving. Outcomes are getting better. The proportion of people who've made a full recovery has risen from 16 per cent to 48 per cent. And one thing I'm particularly proud of is that Wales is the first country in the United Kingdom to implement revolutionary artificial intelligence technology for faster stroke diagnosis, and that happens in every health board in Wales. So, things are improving. We've got software that analyses computed tomography scans to identify the type and severity and the most appropriate treatment for the patient. So, technology is going to be part of the route to help us with this issue.
That’s very reassuring and incredibly important. My constituent Dr Shakeel Ahmad is, obviously, leading on this, and none of us would want this intervention into your brain, if you have a blood clot, being done by anybody other than somebody who did that as their primary job. So, how far ahead are we in ensuring that we have these regional centres for excellence in every part of Wales?
Thanks very much. We are taking our lead from the clinicians, and we've got to look at what are the best outcomes for patients, and Shakeel Ahmad is helping us very much in that space. Now, we recognise that centres of excellence, where you have to try and attract brilliant people, like Shakeel Ahmad—. It's going to be difficult if we've got too many of them, and we need to be aware of that. But we also need to be aware that there are communities that are concerned about losing the facilities they have at the moment. I know there's a particular issue in Bronglais. So, we just need to make sure that we get the balance right and we listen to local communities, but we make sure that the outcomes in the end are the things that are best for patients.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: there is no good reason why Wales should be treated any differently from Scotland in this area. The Crown Estate has been devolved there, and it should be devolved here. Welsh Labour's position on this is a long-standing one, backed up by independent commissions that all say the same thing: the wealth generated from our natural resources should stay here in Wales.
We're in discussions with the UK Government. The fact is that we can't make them do anything. That's a discussion. Well, it'll be interesting to see what an independent Plaid Cymru would ask them to do. What's important, I think, is that we do make the case and ensure that they understand that developments, such as those that they want to see in Wales, must be for the benefit of the people of Wales. And at present, we want to see a lot more evidence that this will be of benefit to our country.
Well, it’s constitutional navel gazing again this afternoon, isn’t it, from Plaid Cymru, bringing this question to the Chamber? Because the real issues that matter to the people of Wales are the longest NHS waiting lists anywhere in the UK, the worst educational outcomes anywhere in the UK, and the weakest economy as well. And there is a connection between those things, because it’s not just your record, First Minister; it’s Plaid Cymru who have propped you up, with the Liberal Democrats as well, over that time. So, given the record that the three of you enjoy together, why on earth should we give you more powers to ruin Wales with?
Let me just be clear: I don’t think this is constitutional navel gazing. The reason that we’re asking for this is because it would bring more money into our country—more money that would help us to develop our public services. So, that’s the logic behind it. We need to make sure—. Because it is a slightly different situation from Scotland, in the sense that I think a lot of the seabed is outside of Welsh waters, so we’ve got to make sure that we’re very clear about what the benefit would be. But, as a principle, I think it is important that Wales benefits from our own natural resources.
Good afternoon, First Minister. I know it’s been a very difficult day, and we must not forget that, in terms of treating each other with kindness.
I want to bring the issue back to the question, which is actually the devolution of the Crown Estate. Last month, 79-year-old David Hardwick from Radnorshire, born and raised on his family farm, was visited on his doorstep by Crown Estate officials, just before seven in the evening. They demanded payment for arrears—£100 a year simply to use a farm track his family and community have relied on since 1880. Surely we can agree that no Welsh farmer, or anybody else, should face intimidation—which is how it felt to him—for accessing land their family had farmed for generations.
This case highlights a wider system, where billions from Wales’s land and offshore resources flow straight to London, leaving our communities underfunded. Councils, as we know, even have to pay for public access to beaches and marinas—money that should stay here in Wales.
I’ve heard what you’ve said, and I don’t doubt your commitment to devolve the Crown Estate, but this must happen urgently, and we must see action. So, can I ask you: what action have you been taking in the last couple of months to ensure that we have the devolution of the Crown Estate here to us in Wales? Diolch yn fawr iawn.
Thanks very much. The Deputy First Minister will be making a statement on this this month, to talk about what the next steps will be in relation to this. But I think, as a principle, I agree that there shouldn’t be a case where that money is being transferred to the United Kingdom Government without any say from the Welsh Government here in Wales.
8. Will the First Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government's policy on the provision of free medical prescriptions for people in Wales? OQ63055
So, free prescriptions are one of the Welsh Labour Government's proudest achievements. For 18 years, we've ensured that nobody has to choose between paying their bills and picking up their medicines. It keeps people healthy, saves lives, and reduces pressure on the NHS by keeping people out of hospital.
First Minister, prescriptions in England are now £9.90 per item—something that we don’t have to bear within Wales. The Welsh Conservatives have frequently spoken of their opposition to the free prescriptions policy. Reform—the new Reform party—want to privatise the national health service, which would mean an end to free prescriptions. Can you give an assurance that this Welsh Labour Government values the importance of money not being an obstacle to people getting the medicines that they actually need?
Thanks very much, Mick, and prescription charges, we think, are a tax on illness, and we’re really proud that we’ve scrapped that tax. And what you see here is Labour values in action—healthcare based on need and not on your wallet.
The people of Wales, rightly so, value their free prescriptions and healthcare that is free at the point of need. I and my party support that principle, unlike other parties in this Chamber, like Reform UK, who want to privatise our health system across Wales, putting our elderly and the most vulnerable people in our society at risk, because they would have to pay for healthcare, something that I strongly oppose.
But there is a serious issue about the cost and sustainability of low-level drugs—drugs such as Aspirin, ibuprofen and paracetamol—which do cost the NHS millions of pounds every year. So, I'm just interested, First Minister: would your Government look at cost-labelling on these drugs, so people can understand how much those drugs cost our GP services, so people who can afford them could make an informed decision to go into a pharmacy, perhaps, or any other shops, where they cost under £1, mainly, for these drugs?
Thanks very much. I just want to give people a sense of the scale of what's going on here. In one year, nearly 85 million items were prescribed free of charge in primary care. That's an extraordinary number in a population of 3 million people. Since 2007, more than 1 billion items have been prescribed. So, there are a lot of people who appreciate this. I think it is important that people recognise that, actually, drugs, some of them can be cheap, some of them can be extremely expensive, and people do just think they're always going to be there for them. That is not necessarily going to be the case. It is important, and I'd like to reiterate that, under a Welsh Labour Government, they will remain free.
Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, Trefnydd and Chief Whip
Thank you very much, Llywydd. There are several changes to this week's business, as set out on the Plenary agendas. Business for the next three weeks is shown on the business statement, which is available to Members electronically.
Thank you, Presiding Officer. In the banter about the wonderful pillar that sits by me these days, I did forget to declare an interest before asking my question. I refer Members to the declaration of interests that I make on the register.
That's understandable, and I apologise for cutting across you with my comments about the pillar. I won't be mentioning pillars again. Thank you for that and for that clarification. Darren Millar.
Diolch, Llywydd. Business Manager, people across Wales were shocked last week by scenes that emerged from the United States of America, which showed Charlie Kirk, a 31-year-old father of two, husband, who was brutally murdered on their screens before a crowd at Utah Valley University. Charlie Kirk, of course, was a dedicated conservative, a passionate Christian, and a champion of free speech. Given what has happened in the United States of America, I do think that it is important that we pay tribute to Charlie's work, as a Senedd, on this issue of free speech across the United States, and, indeed, around the world, including here in the United Kingdom, with the organisation Turning Point, and that we take this opportunity to make sure that our university campuses are always champions of free speech across Wales. Can you confirm that you will issue a statement to that effect?
Thank you very much, Darren Millar. Indeed, there was shock across the world at the scenes from the United States and the killing, the horrific killing, of Charlie Kirk. Thank you for raising this and sharing your comments today on this shocking violence, unprecedented to be seen in so many ways, that has shocked the world. Of course, this is something where, indeed, we are very proud of the safety that is secured on our university campuses, and also, indeed, in terms of free speech, and also recognise the importance of our education and higher education institutions in Wales in terms of their learning and the opportunities that they have to actually engage in debate, which is so important in terms of these issues, but also to say that we are very conscious of the fact that this should not lead to some of the horrific scenes, the very unfortunate scenes of violence, that we saw, for example, in London last week, which we would condemn, in terms of violence, violence by the Tommy Robinson gathering, which also led to violence against the police and our armed forces. I think it's important to make that point today. We must be able to live together, protest peacefully and debate peaceably, and learn as well, peacefully, with each other.
Trefnydd, I'm sure you will have seen that the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee in the Senedd published a very important report last week in response to last year's storms, storms Bert and Darragh. We've also seen extreme weather recently. I note that, in responding to that report, the Welsh Government will respond more formally. But we are getting to the winter now. We have already seen some flooding. You will know, in my area, South Wales Central, that people are extremely concerned every time there's heavy rain or when there's a storm. There's still a great deal of work that needs to be done. Can I ask, therefore, for a statement from the Cabinet Secretary with responsibility for climate change on arrangements for this winter, and what assurance can we give that the Government has learned the lessons contained within this report already, rather than having to wait months until there is an opportunity for us to discuss it formally in this Chamber? Thank you.
—particularly when we think of the bad weather even over the last week. We've had flash flooding, sudden flooding, and some of that is reflected, clearly, in terms of the impact of climate change. The importance of the climate change committee's report is clearly acknowledged by this Government. I think it is timely, and I will ask the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs to provide that update as we move towards, again, concerning times. Although we can say we had a very good summer—although it led to drought and very great difficulties in terms of agriculture—we know that our climate is changing, and we must address it. The recommendations were important, and I will ask for that update.
I would like to ask for two statements. The first statement requested is on air quality. In Swansea, we have a serious problem with the burning of waste material at Mill Stream Way in Llansamlet. The Welsh Government brought in excellent legislation to ban and place a premium charge on unauthorised waste dumps, but people are getting around this by, instead of dumping, creating a large-scale fire, which also sends noxious gases into the atmosphere. What action is going to be taken to stop this waste disposal method?
The second request I have is for a Government statement on what can be done and what support is going to be given to create more no-cold-calling zones. These are very popular with local residents, especially with elderly local residents.
Thank you very much, Mike Hedges. It is important that we recognise that burning of waste is strictly controlled, and there are very limited situations where burning is permissible, and the correct authorisation is needed to carry this out. Indeed, waste should only be managed by an authorised person and any treatment or use of waste should be in line with the regulations. That, of course, leads to recognising that only suitably authorised operators can accept, transport, deposit, handle, treat and use waste. So, thank you for raising that and drawing attention to that concern in terms of the burning of waste in your constituency, and also to look at this in terms of Natural Resources Wales's responsibilities and the local authority in terms of addressing this.
It's very interesting—. Your second question on cold calling is an interesting one, because, of course, cold calling itself isn't illegal, but rogue traders who ignore no-cold-calling stickers, or indeed pressure residents, are actually breaking the law. This goes back to our local authorities in terms of trading standards in Wales, who do now have stronger powers under the Digital Markets, Competition and Consumers Act 2024 to act quickly against offenders. Also, prosecution is risked under the new consumer law as a result of those stronger powers. So, trading officers are using those powers to investigate and take action against those who cause financial loss and distress.
Trefnydd, I'd like to request a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning, outlining the Welsh Government's approach to supporting the tourism industry in Wales. Tourism businesses in Pembrokeshire are struggling with a number of challenges due to recent policy changes from Governments here, and indeed at Westminster. The increased regulation of the sector doesn't actually recognise the individual circumstances of the sector's businesses. Indeed, policies like the 182-day self-catering threshold, increased council tax premiums, minimum EPC grades and now the Welsh Government's plans for a statutory licensing scheme all add an additional financial burden to those businesses. So, Trefnydd, the tourism sector needs reinforcement, not further regulation. In light of the ever increasing pressures that businesses are facing, it's vital that we have a statement from the Welsh Government outlining its priorities for the sector and how it plans to support the sector going forward.
Thank you very much, Paul Davies. Yes, I acknowledge the points that you've made in terms of challenges to our Welsh Government tourism industry in Wales, but also I think, after this extraordinary summer that we've had, we must really celebrate the positive impact and benefits of tourism in Wales. I think many of us were able to enjoy some of our recess in west Wales, for example, in your constituency, Paul, as you will know.
It's absolutely amazing to see the vibrancy of the tourism industry in Pembrokeshire, with many visitors from overseas; the wonderful hospitality industry; the great use of our coastal path and all the adventure. Families are absolutely coming to west Wales. So, yes, of course we engage with the tourism industry, with the businesses. We look to them in terms of learning how we can improve conditions and infrastructure, working with our local authorities, but let's also celebrate and recognise that Wales is the tourist destination.
I'd like a statement, please, on the importance of library services to our communities. In Caerphilly, council plans to close 10 libraries are thankfully now on hold, but we don't know for how long. This saga has been going on since the council rushed forward their plans to close these 10 libraries, and they were challenged on that in the courts. A judge has now granted an interim injunction. That means the libraries must now stay open until the legal challenge is settled, but not all libraries have reopened, because the council had pushed ahead with closing them at the end of August. Some staff have left because of the uncertainty. I know Nelson, for example, has been delayed in reopening fully as a result.
Now, I realise you won't be able to comment on a legal case, of course, but many residents are hoping this reprieve will give them time for community groups to make plans to take over the running of these sites, if they do close. Could I ask you what support could the Government give to local authorities to help empower these types of local groups, hypothetically? Would you join me in declaring how vitally important our libraries are to our children and our communities?
Thank you very much, Delyth Jewell. I absolutely join you in recognising the vital importance of our library services in our communities. I note the injunction and I can't comment further on that, but I'm grateful that you've also raised the opportunities that have emerged in terms of community engagement, which actually—. Across Wales, and certainly in my constituency and many others, for some time now, libraries have been supported and sustained by community groups and community councils and have been very successful. I think we'll certainly take that back and look at that in terms of guidance as to who can provide that expertise and transfer that knowledge for residents and communities in Caerphilly.
Trefnydd, can I request a statement on artificial intelligence, that topic of our time, and pretty timely given the announcements at a UK level today? So, I think it's time for an update, a statement from the Welsh Government on the Welsh Government's work and direction on this. I'm particularly concerned about the role of certain aspects of AI in exacerbating inequality, particularly so-called 'nudification' apps that create fake nude images of women without their consent. It's happened to politicians; it could happen to any of us; it could have happened already and we don't know, but worryingly it also happens to schoolgirls as well, with devastating effects.
So, I'm seeking assurances on the safeguards and guardrails that need to be put in place here, but also I met with an MP campaigning on this issue over the summer. So, can I urge the Welsh Government to work with the UK Government to strengthen the Online Safety Act 2023? That Act banned the creation of images without consent, but we need to go further, I believe, and make it illegal to download nudification apps in the first place and eradicate the software that enables them to be created. In the Cabinet Secretary for economy's written statement on 28 June, she said that
'the Strategic AI Advisory Group...with...the Welsh Government’s Office for AI, will ensure that technological advancement serves the public good and aligns with the values of Welsh society.'
So, we do need a statement on how that is going to happen, because we do need to move fast to fix things and not allow AI to exacerbate and amplify misogyny and discrimination.
Thank you very much, Hannah Blythyn, for raising that crucially important point. As you say, and what was made clear by the Cabinet Secretary in terms of the advisory group looking at AI, this is about looking at—and indeed this is very much a social partnership issue, and the trade unions' varied work in terms of the workforce partnership council, engaging with this—that AI must be developed for the public good.
There's a real challenge here. We are working closely with the UK Government in terms of recognising the impact of online abuse, as you've described. I'm grateful that you've raised this because I think this is a social justice issue in relation to equality and the appalling abuse of particularly women and girls and young women, and indeed this is something where those examples that you've given can only exacerbate the abuse and misuse of AI in this way. So, we have got to act on this, and certainly I will be raising this with not just our colleagues here in the Welsh Government, but also in the UK Government as well, recognising that this is something where we need to work together as Governments to address this.
I'd like to raise the length of the Senedd summer recess with the Trefnydd, with you also sitting on Business Committee. Holyrood, Westminster and Stormont all returned from summer recess in the first week of September, yet the Senedd is only sitting for the first time today since 16 July. This means that the Welsh Government have gone two whole months without any proper scrutiny, and during recess, as you'll know, Senedd Members are restricted in the number of written questions they can table to just five per week. So, can the Trefnydd outline why the Senedd summer recess is longer than that of other UK Parliaments, and whether she has any plans to bring it in line with other UK legislatures to strengthen the scrutiny of the Welsh Government, particularly as a deficit of scrutiny was cited as a reason for the need for an expanded Senedd?
Well, Gareth Davies, these are the arrangements that are made by our cross-party Business Committee. I don't think we need to say any more on this matter, except, of course, we are working today and Westminster is actually not working for the next three weeks in terms of their party conferences, and we have been fully available and accessible as a Welsh Government throughout the summer. But our recess arrangements are a cross-party agreement that's made by the Business Committee, with the support of our Llywydd and Deputy Llywydd, in terms of enabling that to be discussed and agreed.
Trefnydd, since April, I have asked you and your Government time and time again for clarity on how this Labour Welsh Government plans to respond to the very important Supreme Court ruling on the definition of a woman. You said you needed the summer to work out what actions you were going to take on this before you could make an oral statement. Well, time is up. It is now five months since the Supreme Court ruling. Surely enough time has now passed for you to adapt to the law and even, perhaps, establish what a woman actually is. But given the significance, I would like to once again ask for an oral statement on the floor of the Senedd on what actions the Welsh Government has taken to rectify its policies so that they now fall in line with the Supreme Court ruling on the definition of sex. I feel it's very important that we all have the opportunity to discuss, debate and ask questions on your Government's response to this. Diolch.
Thank you very much, Laura Anne Jones, and, as I have responded to you, and indeed of course across any questions of this kind, I'm very happy to respond, as other Cabinet Secretaries and Ministers have as well. You are fully aware, I know, as a Member, that the Equality and Human Rights Commission has been consulting on any changes, indeed the code of practice and the impact of the Supreme Court on the code of practice. Indeed, they have just reported, as you will be aware, on the outcome of that consultation. That now of course rests with Westminster, and that's something where I know that the Minister for Women and Equalities, Bridget Phillipson, has now received the response from the Equality and Human Rights Commission, and in due course we will hear the outcome of their consideration.
Trefnydd, I asked for a statement from the Minister for Health and Social Care on the role of community hospitals across Wales. This is particularly pertinent in my part of the world where Gorseinon Hospital, a much-loved community hospital, is having its beds removed by Swansea Bay University Health Board and centralised in Singleton Hospital. The health board insists that it is a temporary measure, albeit that we've seen previous temporary measures in this health board become permanent. We know the importance of these community hospitals and the pressure that they take off the NHS, the pressure that they take off the social care system and the rehabilitative care that they offer patients and why this hospital is much loved and wants to be protected. So, I ask for that statement today to ensure that community hospitals, like the one in Gorseinon, are protected long into the future.
Thank you for that question. Of course, this is a matter for Swansea Bay University Health Board in terms of the provision of services. Of course, that's important in terms of the range of services, the range of access to services from primary care to community hospital, and indeed to specialist services in the district general hospitals in the community. So, it is a matter for the health board and it is a matter in terms of patient views and consultation, I know, but it is also a consideration of what is going to be the most appropriate provision and access to health services in the community. Of course, we've seen across Wales the importance of that range of access to hospital care and through primary care, making that the lead for our everyday NHS contacts.
Diolch. I call for a Welsh Government statement on Exercise Pegasus, ideally an oral statement. The UK COVID-19 inquiry's module 1 report called for regular UK-wide pandemic exercises every three years, involving UK Ministers, devolved Governments, the NHS, social care, public health leaders and external red teams to challenge planning and ensure lessons are implemented. In consequence, Exercise Pegasus, a tier 1 national level pandemic simulation, is starting this week and running until November, led by the UK Department for Health and Social Care. However, although the UK COVID inquiry stated that exercises should involve Ministers and senior officials from the devolved administrations, the Welsh Government COVID inquiry team told the COVID-19 Bereaved Families for Justice Cymru just last week:
'We’re a participant rather than having an organising role so we’re in the hands of the UK Government (Cabinet Office to be more precise). We’ve chased them for some info we can pass on to you but haven’t received anything yet.'
This does not sound like the four-nations approach that the chair of the UK COVID inquiry wanted. The families are also concerned that it's only a tier 1 exercise, which, as far as they know, is ignoring the module 1 recommendation of a whole-systems exercise and focusing just on the NHS, despite the inquiry repeatedly criticising all the UK nations for only focusing on the NHS. This Senedd needs and deserves a full and detailed statement accordingly.
Thank you very much, Mark Isherwood, for that question. I will ensure that the role of the Welsh Government is clarified. I will write to you and we’ll make sure that that is very clear in terms of wider public understanding and interest. Of course it is important that we clarify that, and thank you for raising that question.
Item 4 is next today, a statement by the Counsel General and Minister for Delivery on the Planning (Wales) Bill and the Planning (Consequential Provisions) (Wales) Bill. I call on the Counsel General, Julie James.
Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I am very pleased to stand here today to mark the introduction into the Senedd of the Planning (Wales) Bill and Planning (Consequential Provisions) (Wales) Bill. These Bills form part of our wider ambition to create legislation that is modern, bilingual, and uniquely designed for Wales. Together, they further demonstrate the Welsh Government’s commitment to making our laws more accessible and easier to understand. They also reflect the progress we are making in shaping a legal framework that truly serves our nation.
These Bills follow on from the earlier consolidation of historic environment law achieved with the Historic Environment (Wales) Act 2023. The benefits of consolidation for improving the accessibility of Welsh law are realised when we see the greater confidence for business, Government and the public in the use and application of the law that affects them. I anticipate that this will be even greater in the field of planning law.
The planning system is central to how we deliver the Welsh Government’s priorities and plays a fundamental role in people’s lives. It’s not just about land use, it’s about shaping the Wales we want today and tomorrow for our communities. It is essential to creating sustainable development and places. It delivers value-based economic prosperity and improves the social, environmental and cultural well-being of Wales. An effective and efficient planning system is therefore vital, and I believe the simplification and modernisation of the law, through consolidation, is a prerequisite to achieving this.
Due to concerns over the complexity of the planning statute book, we asked the Law Commission for England and Wales to undertake a detailed review of this area of law. Their subsequent report set out the issues and difficulties for operators and users of the planning system. The commission were clear that the existing legislation needed to be simplified and consolidated. Dirprwy Lywydd, it's a view I very much share having previously practised in planning law.
I and many others in this Chamber will recognise the difficulties of interpreting the existing legislative framework. It is fragmented and difficult to navigate. It is based on legislation passed by the UK Parliament, much of it decades old. The increasing divergence between the law in Wales and England can make it difficult to identify the law here. This situation is exacerbated by amendments from planning reform legislation introduced by the UK Government in recent years, with only limited aspects applying to Wales. You know you have a problem when an Act has been amended so many times that there are now more than 40 sections inserted between original sections 61 and section 62, with numbering including 61QM and 61Z2.
It is important that all stakeholders working with the system can clearly access and understand the law directly affecting them. The increasing need for legal advice to operate, use and engage in the planning system is of real concern. How effectively the planning system functions, or communities engage with it, should not depend on whether legal advice can be obtained or afforded. The introduction of the Planning (Wales) Bill addresses these complexities and issues. It brings together the main pieces of primary legislation that form the foundation of our planning system.
At the same time, it modernises the structure and wording of the law, clarifies its effect and removes inconsistencies. Provisions that are redundant are omitted. It is a Bill that provides the most comprehensive and accessible statement of the legislation governing town and country planning anywhere in the UK. It will mean that legislation is easier to use and understand for everyone who has to engage with it.
Consolidation is not a mechanical exercise of copying existing provisions into a new Bill with a few tweaks. It involves a very careful and detailed consideration of the current law to understand its intent and application. It requires an in-depth understanding of how the law operates in practice to ensure that the existing legal effect is upheld as the law itself is modernised.
Of course, most planning legislation is currently made only in the English language; this is a barrier to those who wish to use Welsh as a language of the law. The consolidation of planning law for Wales supports our goal of a truly bilingual legal system and promotes the use of Welsh in legal and administrative contexts.
Our work to produce these Bills has been informed by the conclusions and recommendations of the Law Commission’s report. That report was itself the product of significant engagement with stakeholders. I want to take this opportunity to put on record my sincere thanks to the commission for their very detailed review, and for their positive engagement and assistance in shaping both Bills.
Dirprwy Lywydd, the drafting process also highlighted some issues with the existing law. Changes have been made to address these issues where that is permitted by the Senedd’s Standing Orders on consolidation Bills. These changes are summarised in the drafters’ notes that form part of the accompanying explanatory memorandum. The changes include matters such as harmonisation and modernisation of terminology, clarity of timescales, consistency of processes and removing obsolete provisions. Where changes have been taken forward that required a formal recommendation of the Law Commission under Standing Order 26C.2(v), we have also sought and received those recommendations. Members can see those in the annexes to the explanatory memorandum, and further information is also in the drafters’ notes.
I am very proud indeed that the Planning (Wales) Bill reflects the specific needs of Wales. It establishes a distinct legal framework that reflects Welsh priorities and governance, independent of the planning system in England. It updates terminology and references to reflect the institutional and constitutional arrangements applicable in Wales. It omits provisions that apply only to England, such as mayoral and neighbourhood development Orders. This simplification will make it easier for users to understand the law as it applies in Wales.
As we did with the consolidation of historic environment legislation, we are taking the opportunity through the planning Bill to create a code of Welsh law. Alongside consolidation, codification provides a tool to create and maintain order in the Welsh law book. If passed by the Senedd, this legislation and the subsequent subordinate legislation will form a code of Welsh law on planning. This will help avoid future fragmentation of planning law.
This Bill clearly marks a pivotal moment in the devolution story of our planning system. Should the Senedd pass the Bill, our reliance on various old Westminster Acts for our planning law will come to an end. It will also mean that any future changes to Welsh planning legislation will be much easier, with changes being made to a single consolidated text.
Accompanying the planning Bill is the Planning (Consequential Provisions) (Wales) Bill, which makes the necessary amendments and repeals to existing legislation. It includes transitional and savings provisions to support the implementation of the main Bill. These provisions are placed in a separate Bill. This is to ensure that the planning Bill remains focused on substantive law and is not encumbered by lengthy Schedules. Although the consequential provisions Bill is a consolidation Bill within the meaning of Standing Order 26C, it is not intended to form part of the code on planning law. Its provisions are transitional or of limited interest. Keeping it separate helps to maintain the clarity and usability of the main planning Bill.
Dirprwy Lywydd, in closing, I want to emphasise the importance of these Bills. They are not just about tidying up the statute book; they are about making the law work better for everyone. They are about ensuring that planning law in Wales is clear, accessible and fit for the future. They reflect the specific needs of Wales and our commitment to modern, bilingual legislation. I'm really looking forward to these Bills progressing through the Senedd, and to working with the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee as they undertake the first stages of consideration. Diolch.
Thank you for your statement today, Minister. I know that this Bill has been worked on extensively already, and there is no doubt that urgent simplification of planning law is required. Clearly, we need laws that people are able to understand, and it is right that restructuring planning laws to clarify the legal framework is going to help to make planning applications and decisions more accessible and easier to understand.
However, that said, critics are arguing that the proposed Bill, in its current form, is a missed opportunity, because it is a technical consolidation rather than the policy reform that is desperately needed. With the effort that has gone into this Bill, it is believed that there could have been steps taken to legislate for some of the major issues facing planning, in particular delays in decision making caused by resource shortages and the issues surrounding local planning authorities' LDPs.
Technical clarity, which this Bill hopes to achieve, is not in itself going to speed up the planning process or make it more efficient. Planning officers already know the rules and regulations. The issues they face are more to do with under-resourced planning departments and the number of statutory bodies and sustainable drainage systems approval bodies that have to be consulted, which can add lengthy delays. We should also not forget that planning enforcement departments are also severely understaffed.
Small and medium-sized enterprises have been saying for some time that navigating an under-resourced planning system continues to present the greatest challenge, because unlike large house builders, they aren't in a position to direct capital into new projects when there are delays. I note that you have said that you're going to invest £9 million into Planning and Environment Decisions Wales, Natural Resources Wales and the Welsh Government's planning directorate; however, it's not clear how this will directly speed up the planning approval rate. Minister, how are you going to ensure that this money is used for the purposes for which it is intended?
You've also said that there will be increased planning application fees. Will these fees be ring-fenced to be used for expanding planning departments or go into general funds? Whilst I am sure that additional funding of PEDW, NRW and the Welsh Government's planning directorate will be welcomed by these organisations, what plans do you have to improve funding of statutory consultees and SuDS approval bodies to help maintain them to improve their workforce to minimise delays?
In terms of planning, there seems to be a major issue in terms of local development plans being out of date, and this causes problems because building companies are left in a state of uncertainty. From a technical point of view, this Bill is near complete and should progress fairly easily. However, would you consider strengthening this Bill to include some new regulations that will help tackle delays?
Thank you very much, Joel. Just to answer the first point you made, I think it's actually very important indeed that we consolidate the law. I don't think that I need to apologise for making that a priority, because the law is very, very complex, and even somebody who has practised in planning law for decades, as I have, will struggle sometimes to understand what's in force in Wales and what is not.
The rest of your contribution was all about reforms that you'd like to make. I made the point in my speech, and I'll make it again, that those reforms will be much easier to make once we have consolidated the law, and so what you're doing is reforming a single codified piece of legislation. If we introduce reforms into this Bill, it will cease to be a consolidation Bill and become a policy Bill with a wholly different procedure attached to it and will have a completely different set of outcomes.
I'm not, I'm afraid, going to accept your recommendation or ask that we put any reforms into this. We have very carefully calibrated this Bill so that it is consolidating the law. Where there are things that might be considered reforms because the language has changed, or there are things that have happened, we have negotiated that with the Senedd Commission to ensure that what we're actually doing is still codifying the existing law, so that this remains a consolidation Bill.
I do assure you very much that some of the issues that you've raised are issues that we're very well aware of, and that we do think that the consolidation point will speed up any subsequent reforms. It hasn't stopped us putting reforms through. The Infrastructure (Wales) Act 2024 went through on the basis of the old law. The Senedd is still in the process of considering a whole series of statutory instruments hanging off the back of that Act, for example. Indeed, you mentioned yourself that the Government continues to invest in its planning system.
I will say, just on a small political point, one of the reasons that we have such difficulty in recruiting planners is that, unfortunately, they were seen for many years during the Conservative rule as back-office staff that were not very important. Actually, it turns out they are completely pivotal to development. These back-office faceless staff turn out to be pretty fundamental people. I made that point to Darren Millar when we were together on Sharp End or one of the political programmes—I forget which one, actually—very recently. It is easy to talk about admin and back-office staff until you actually analyse what they do. In this particular instance, they're pretty pivotal to what we do, and you can't train them quickly. So, having not been training them for a decade, it takes a while to catch back up. But I can assure you the Government has been assisting with that. It has been helping local authorities to recruit planners in-house. It has been talking to developers about how we can make sure that the drift into the private sector can be allayed. We have been talking to our universities about courses that can be taken by existing staff to get them up to speed.
I have to agree with the Counsel General: this Bill is not going to revolutionise planning policy in Wales. That is not its purpose. However, there is progress in terms of consolidation. There is benefit to it, because it gives you foundations, then, for the reform work that could follow on, then, in a far more structured way. We therefore welcome the fundamental principle of consolidating Welsh planning law, which has been spread far and wide, as the Counsel General has suggested, into one codified, bilingual Welsh statute. This is an extremely important step forward in terms of clarity, accessibility and the ability, then, to identify gaps and to move planning policy forward for the future.
There are some questions that I have—some that you have already touched upon. In terms of the Bill as presented, can you tell us about any changes from the draft published before the summer, or are they just minor amendments that have been made? You emphasise, of course, that you have your consolidation certificate, and that there are no new policies that have been smuggled into the text, but how can we as Members ensure that that is the case? Is there a document available or a table that will enable us to see the old provisions, to map them against the new law in a way that can remove any doubts that there are any hidden policy changes implicit in the process?
You have referred to the Law Commission report as the catalyst, and that you had requested that report as the first part of the process. Once again, perhaps in the drafter's notes—I have not had an opportunity to read all of the explanatory memorandum—in those notes, is there some sort of table that looks at the original recommendations, and also the Welsh Government's response in accepting most of them, and that will enable us to understand how that has then been translated into the final text? Has there been any change from the original response to those recommendations to what has ended up in the text? It's good to see, for example, one of the recommendations relating to consistency and clarity in terms of the Welsh language, and although that isn't a change of policy, because that requirement to take Welsh into account was in existence, it existed in a way that wasn't prominent, perhaps, in the process. That's one of the benefits, I think, in terms of this draft Bill.
Also, in terms of the Law Commission, there were some recommendations that you rejected, most of them because they weren't consolidation recommendations as such, as I understand it—they were recommendations for reform. Have you done any more work on those? Some of those have already been implemented, I suppose, through other methods, but has further work been done in terms of a reform Bill for the future in relation to those recommendations?
Diolch, Adam. You make a whole series of points with which I entirely agree, of course. I'm very pleased to see you welcome the consolidation, and the point you made just to conclude there is a very good one. It is, of course, the bedrock, if you like, of a reformed system, because it gives people a basis on which to have a look at what really is in force in Wales, and then to decide what else to do.
In terms of some of the other questions you asked, there will be a drafter's notes with it, and they, as much as possible, will try to explain the process by which the drafters, both Welsh and English, have come to the conclusions they have. And just to say it's been drafted simultaneously—it's not an English draft translated into Welsh; it's been properly bilingual throughout its process.
We've had the involvement of the Law Commission throughout, and we've continued to engage them all the way through. In addition, Dr Charles Mynors, the principal author of the Law Commission report, has actually joined the Bill team, which has been absolutely first class, actually, to share his extensive expertise and knowledge. He's worked on the development of both Bills and the supporting documentation, so it's a joint effort, if you like, very much. As part of the scrutiny as we go through, the Bill team will be very much supporting me. It's a very technical Bill and they'll be able to explain exactly where, in some cases, we've made changes.
But just to give you an example, the document has highlighted the approach to topic areas, so we've got areas such as minerals and waste, where those provisions are brought together or not restated where they haven't any longer got effect, instead of being spread across as many as 15 different Acts. So, there will be whole sections bringing areas into play, where previously you might have had to do a pretty forensic search to find out what was in force in Wales. And this, combined with the Bill that we discussed in the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee previously, where our terminology has changed for the better in Wales, will also assist in making sure that we have a set of rules that are accessible and easy to get hold of.
The Government will continue to fund Planning Aid Wales, and we will be making sure that the guidance is available, obviously, in both languages, but in an accessible format as well. I think this Bill will very much have failed if members of the public do not feel more confident in approaching their local planning authority without professional support, because this ought to enable them to feel pretty confident that they understand what it is they're asking for, and what effect that will have on their particular project. And that's right from a household extension up to an SME build and, indeed, beyond that. So, I think that's the test, if you like, that it's accessible in that way.
I, too, very much welcome this piece of consolidation, and I think it'll be a great legacy for the next Senedd to have something so that the citizen is able to understand what is the law and what is contrary to regulations, so that they can object if they need to. I think it's really important, whether we're talking about a garden shed or a giant array of wind turbines, we need to know what are the rules and how does a proposal comply. There was something in the paper only yesterday about the Wirral Council being unable to promote a cycle path because of some obscure nineteenth-century thing that had been passed by the local authority at that time, preventing any cycling along that particular coastal path. So, this is really important stuff, and I want to fully support you.
I want to just hark back to the legislation we most recently passed on planning, which is the Infrastructure (Wales) Act 2024. I note that the Cabinet Secretary for energy announced, in June, she'd commissioned the Royal Town Planning Institute Cymru to undertake a comprehensive workforce audit, to make sure that we have the workforce capacity, resources and skills needed to deliver on that 12-month timeline for proposals of national significance. That's incredibly important, as we want to, as far as possible, make that transition away from fossil fuels without compromising quality or design. So, I wanted to find out from you, Minister, when this research is to be published, so we can assure ourselves that the legislation we pass is fit for purpose in delivering our intentions.
Thank you, Jenny. It's good to hear you welcome the consolidation, and I think a lot of what you said is absolutely right: it will make it much more accessible in both languages. As I said in response to both the other contributors, we very much hope that people will not feel the need to have a professional adviser for every single little bit of planning that they want to look at. And just to be slightly flippant, Dirprwy Lywydd, I did once say to an English lawyer colleague who was about to take a case in Cardiff civil court, who asked me what was in force, 'Good luck', because we know that it's very difficult at the moment to figure out what is and isn't in force. Now, I very much want to get to the point where you don't have to say 'good luck' to somebody going into the court, on the basis that they may or may not be propounding something based on a law that isn't in force in Wales, or isn't in force anywhere, actually—it's quite difficult to find even that out. And just on that, I mean, it might seem flippant, but it really isn't; it puts people off taking these things forward. This ought to be simple and straightforward. It ought to be easy and accessible for citizens of Wales, and practising professionals, to understand what the law is. You cannot have the rule of law unless you have access to law. You cannot have the rule of law unless people understand what that law is. So, clearly, this is a very fundamental point of running a successful legal system, which of course is what we're doing.
In terms of the workforce assessment that you're talking about, my understanding—I'm not the relevant Minister anymore, but my understanding—is that it's relatively imminent to be produced, and then, once it's produced, we'll have to work alongside local authority colleagues and PEDW to make sure we're able to implement it.
But I just want to make the point that planning, it's not just about planning professionals. There is a whole series of other people who are absolutely fundamental to running a planning system, right from highways engineers to NRW environmental specialists to planning lawyers in the council and elsewhere, to—. There's a whole ecosystem of people, and they've been starved of resource for quite some time.
And then the other last thing—I did say this in response to Joel, I think—one of the other things we have to do is make sure that we have a planning profession in the public sector that retains people because it's an area that they're interested in practising in and can make a reasonable life out of, and that's absolutely fundamental because, at the moment, that really isn't the case, and it's partly because it's so very difficult to train somebody up and understand exactly where they are. So, I'm very pleased that we're doing this, and I think it will move the system on.
I understand the points and the concerns that Joel James raised, but I also agree that this is a very important step forward. Counsel General, you'll remember from your days as a lawyer in local government, and as an elected politician now, how important planning issues are and how it can evoke strong feelings within communities. It's a regular topic in all of our inboxes. Now, as planning is a quasi-judicial matter, it often seems shrouded in mystery to our constituents. They often then feel very frustrated when they hear councillors on the planning committee and Ministers saying that they can't make comment with regard to a planning decision. If you're saying 'good luck' to a lawyer appearing in court, well, what on earth can we say to these campaigners?
Now, Cardiff used to have a thriving planning law area. That's gone now, to a great extent, because of the complexity.
I hadn't realised I only have one minute, and it's turned red already.
Now, planning is important. It's important for the future of our communities and our nation. I was very pleased to hear you saying that Dr Charles Myers, who's played a huge role in the Welsh Government since 2018, is now part of the Bill team. It's good to have expertise like that as part of the Bill team. I'd like to see more of that happening with Welsh Government.
As with your previous Bill, Minister, this won't create headlines, but it's an important step forward, and like Joel—and I'm glad to hear you saying it today—I hope this is a step forward for real reform so that our communities can feel heard, can feel represented. This is not a matter of Nimbyism, but the balance is difficult, and when communities do not feel heard, we see other people then filling the void with simple but not achievable answers. Diolch yn fawr.
Well, thank you, Rhys. I completely agree with that, and I think the quasi-judicial thing is an interesting example, isn't it? We don't want something shrouded in mystery. We want something open and transparent, so that people understand their rights, they understand their obligations and responsibilities, and they're able to act accordingly. And if their neighbour is building something that's blocking their right to light, they need to understand their rights there, but also the neighbour needs to understand their responsibilities. And at the moment, as you know, you pretty much need to get professional advice to be able to find your way even through something as simple as that, never mind a major development in a city centre. So, I really do think this Bill has a place to play. You're right, it probably won't make headlines, but it's a very important step along the way. And fundamentally, actually, it transforms the way we think about Wales and its jurisdiction. The jurisdiction point, as you know, is an ongoing discussion, but the more we do this work, the more we show that we're capable of it as a Senedd, the more we show that we can make it bilingually accessible to the people of Wales, the more likely it is we'll get the outcome we want.
Item 5 this afternoon is a statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language, Green Paper seeking views on changes to the Welsh tax Acts. I call on the Cabinet Secretary, Mark Drakeford.
Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. It is still less than a decade since this Senedd assumed new fiscal powers for the first time in 500 years. It is not surprising, therefore, that we continue to grapple with some of the practical ways in which those powers can best be discharged.
This statement sets out the most recent development in this area, namely a Green Paper recently launched by the Welsh Government titled 'Views on the Appropriate Mechanisms for Making Changes to the Welsh Tax Acts'. The Green Paper was published on 8 September, and it remains open for responses until November 2025.
I'd like to emphasise from the outset that this is a Green Paper. It does not contain proposals that are already Welsh Government policy. Rather, in this relatively specialist and technical area, it invites views across a range of possible options. Those responses will help to shape more specific proposals for change in the remaining months of this Senedd term and into the next.
The need to begin this process now comes as a consequence of the Welsh Tax Acts etc. (Power to Modify) Act 2022, passed during this Senedd term and which came into force on 9 September 2022. The legislation provided a regulation-making power to the Welsh Ministers to make changes to the Welsh tax Acts in four specified circumstances: first, to ensure that devolved taxes comply with any international obligations; secondly, to protect against tax avoidance; thirdly, to respond to a change to a predecessor tax, such as stamp duty land tax, that impacts the Welsh consolidated fund; or, finally, to respond to court or tribunal decisions that affect, or may affect, the operation of the Welsh tax Acts.
Dirprwy Lywydd, the legislation that passed the Senedd included a limitation on when the regulations could have retrospective effect, a sunset clause, and a duty on the Welsh Ministers to review the operation of the Act and of alternative mechanisms by 8 September 2026. This Green Paper, and the consultation which surrounds it, forms an important step in the discharge of that duty.
The paper begins by setting out how we currently make changes to the Welsh tax Acts. Those Acts include the Tax Collection and Management (Wales) Act 2016, which established the Welsh Revenue Authority and provides the core rules that apply to the administration of two devolved taxes, the land transaction tax and the landfill disposals tax. These Acts provide a number of regulation powers to the Welsh Ministers. Some provide a wide discretion, including the setting of the tax rates and, where relevant, thresholds, or the introduction, amendment or repeal of a relief, whilst others are more circumscribed.
The Green Paper then considers the approaches taken to tax modification for both UK reserved taxes and the Scottish devolved taxes. The UK Government, with its far wider set of fiscal responsibilities, mainly uses its annual finance Bills to set rates of tax, make changes to tax rules for existing taxes, and, in some years, to introduce new reserved taxes. For some changes, the UK Parliament approves resolutions that enable the changes to have effect prior to the legislation being scrutinised. Many of the reserved taxes also include regulation-making powers enabling changes to their taxes to be made outside a finance Bill.
Now, in the case of the Scottish Parliament, although exercising a wider range of tax responsibilities than here in the Senedd, the Scottish Parliament nevertheless exercises those powers in ways more familiar to Members here than would be the case in terms of UK procedures. Regulation-making powers are used to make changes to the Scottish tax Acts, and, like us, primary legislation has been used to introduce new devolved or local taxes. Exceptionally, primary legislation has been introduced to make changes to the Scottish devolved taxes.
Finally, having reviewed what happens elsewhere, the Green Paper sets out some potential alternative mechanisms for us here at the Senedd. Those include the possibility of an annual finance Bill; an annual or less frequent tax Bill; mechanisms to be used to make immediate changes to the Welsh tax Acts, with the Senedd subsequently scrutinising primary legislation; a new version of the current Welsh Tax Acts etc. (Power to Modify) Act 2022; or for no alternative mechanism at all to be provided, for those powers subject to a sunset clause to lapse and for the next Government to rely on the regulation-making powers that are already provided and to introduce primary legislation where those regulation-making powers do not suffice. These different possibilities, and any others that might be advanced as a result of consultation, are at the heart of this exercise.
My officials will engage with any individual or representative body that wishes to discuss the issues raised in the Green Paper. I extend that offer, of course, to the Finance Committee and the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, and I hope that the Chairs will find time for my officials to address any questions or points that the committee members wish to raise or feed into this consultation process. The offer is, as ever, available to all Members with an interest in these matters.
I want the next Senedd to be in the best possible position to establish the approach that it wishes to adopt when making changes to the Welsh tax Acts. This Green Paper meets the statutory obligations placed on the Welsh Ministers, but also prepares the ground for decisions to be made in the next Senedd term.
Dirprwy Lywydd, I want to end with one matter in particular, because this matter could fall to this Senedd to determine. The Welsh Tax Acts etc. (Power to Modify) Act includes a sunset clause on the current arrangements for dealing with necessary changes in this area. Those arrangements will lapse in September 2027, but can be extended once, to a final date of April 2031. That extension would require regulations to come before the Senedd for approval. The Green Paper asks if it would promote stable governance if that extension were to be voted upon in this Senedd term, in order to allow an incoming Government sufficient time to complete the exercise that this Green Paper begins. Views of Members of this Senedd will be especially useful on this point, when the results of the consultation come to be considered. Diolch yn fawr.
I'm grateful to the Cabinet Secretary for bringing forward this consultation on the Welsh tax Acts, and for making the information available publicly in what could be, despite the snappy title, quite a technical area, and also grateful for the advance notice of his statement today, and, as he shared in his statement, the offer of ongoing engagement with this, which I will certainly seek to take up.
Despite the potentially dry subject that we're discussing this afternoon, it is of course a very important one, because the way a Government chooses to amend its tax laws tells us a great deal about how it views its own accountability, its priorities and its relationship with taxpayers in Wales. And I appreciate the intention here is to create, or seek to create, a more permanent mechanism for making those changes to the Welsh tax Acts, but I do think it's right that we pause to consider the possible implications of this very carefully. And what's been proposed for consideration in this consultation could be beyond just an administrative tidy-up; it's a move that could have far-reaching consequences for the clarity, stability and transparency of Welsh tax policy. Ultimately, it raises a very simple question within this about how much scrutiny that process of changing tax laws in Wales will be subject to.
We've been asked to consider allowing future changes to key Welsh tax legislation, including—as we've heard—around land transaction tax, landfill disposals tax and the powers of the Welsh Revenue Authority through a streamlined process, and that could raise some legitimate concerns because, let's be clear, tax changes aren't just technical details in a vacuum; these are changes that impact home buyers, businesses, developers, local authorities and waste operators, and any changes, however minor they may seem on paper, can carry real costs.
So, I have a few concerns that I hope the Cabinet Secretary will address, completely acknowledging that this is a consultation, and I know the Cabinet Secretary will listen to the consultation responses very seriously. Firstly, frequent or unclear changes to tax law can damage investor confidence; they deter long-term planning. I already know in my region, North Wales, that developers, for example, who are working across the border already tell me that uncertainty in devolved tax policy adds complexity to their decisions. So, how will any new mechanism guarantee that we don't end up with a shifting landscape that makes Wales less competitive or makes investors nervous?
Secondly, in regard to Senedd scrutiny, there is a risk here that Ministers—present, or indeed future—could use this mechanism to introduce substantive changes with limited debate or scrutiny. I certainly recognise the need for technical amendments from time to time, but I wonder if the Cabinet Secretary will give a clear commitment that major policy changes, like thresholds, rates or new reliefs, will always come before this Chamber for full scrutiny and relevant support.
Well, Dirprwy Lywydd, I thank Sam Rowlands for that thoughtful contribution. He's right that it is a consultation on relatively technical matters, and it's probably hard for those who are not relatively expert in this field to engage with it directly. Just to say, however, we already have mechanisms on the statute book here in Wales to make changes to the Welsh tax Acts—that's what the 2022 Act did—but the Senedd wanted to ensure that there was a proper opportunity to review the operation of that Act, and it set down some reasonably challenging timetables within which that review should have to be carried out. And that's what this Green Paper kicks off. It doesn't make proposals, it outlines some different possibilities and invites views on those or any other possibilities that those who spend their lives working in this area would suggest to be an improvement on the arrangements currently in place.
I should say that I think it is important that there is a mechanism for making rapid changes to tax arrangements in Wales where otherwise we would be at a disadvantage, and the Bill sets out four of those. I just want to say to the Member that those changes are important not simply when extra costs might be involved, but sometimes there may be instances where a change at the UK level would be advantageous to Welsh citizens, and we would want to pass on those advantages to them as quickly as we could do. Without a mechanism, you'd have to go through the full panoply of Senedd procedures and it might be many months before Welsh citizens could enjoy advantages that were already available to citizens elsewhere. That's why a mechanism to be able to respond rapidly, I think, is important. I am agnostic on it in the terms of the Green Paper, but I do believe that one is necessary.
I agree, however, with what the Member said about the need for changes to Welsh tax to be relatively infrequent. You want a stable pattern—I think we've had a stable pattern here in Wales—and that when changes are made, they should be subject to scrutiny. So, even if they have to be made rapidly, the Senedd would have what's called 'the made affirmative', although I think it's now got a new name, Dirprwy Lywydd, 'the Senedd approved mechanism', in which the Senedd would debate those changes and could undo them if the Senedd chose to do so within a fixed period of time.
As to the Welsh Revenue Authority, which I think is a considerable success story here in Wales, understandably, when the WRA was set up back in 2016, we drew its powers pretty narrowly, more narrowly in fact than the HMRC powers are drawn or the Scottish equivalent. It has led in practice to some genuine anomalies, where the restraints we have placed on WRA on information sharing sometimes mean it cannot share information with the taxpayer about the taxpayer's own affairs. The changes we are proposing are simply to iron out anomalies of that sort. It's just to make sure that we bring the powers the WRA has into line with the experience we've had in what is now nearly a decade.
May I also welcome this consultation? I think it's a healthy thing and it's good practice that we should have legislative reviews of this kind. I also welcome your offer for us to engage on a cross-party basis on these issues, and I also appreciate your comments and your emphasis that this is a Green Paper, and it's an opportunity for us to have a conversation on something that might look dry in one aspect, but is crucially important in terms of this Senedd. Perhaps it's very appropriate that it's on Owain Glyndŵr Day that we're having this discussion. I would make that point, wouldn't I, as a Member for Plaid Cymru?
But as the foreword to the consultation states, and you mentioned this in your own statement, the devolution of some elements of taxation was a historic milestone in the development of this Senedd. I know that you mentioned 500 years, some say 800, but the thing is that there were hundreds of years when we had none of those tools and had no right to raise our own taxes. Despite the limitations of these current powers, in an international context as well as in the context of the nations of the UK, evidence does clearly show that devolution in this area has been a positive step in terms of the Welsh budget. I think it’s important that we recognise that.
If we also consider that we’re only starting the devolution journey in this area, it is therefore crucially important that we continue—and I have faith that the Cabinet Secretary agrees with me on this point—and that we do truly refine and expand the taxation powers of the Senedd. I acknowledge Sam Rowlands’s points in terms of the need for stability, but we must also do this, so it's a positive response from me.
Certainly, I agree, you also posed a question for us as political parties in your statement in relation to the review period for Welsh tax Acts, and you want us to consider whether we should be looking at this before the end of this Senedd. I think we should; I welcome that. I think we need to consider it and I would like to have more information from you, if possible, as to what the timetable would be for making any changes through regulations, and how in practice we could enable that. We know that timetables are already tight, but I do believe that it's an appropriate question for you to ask, and a pragmatic option as we consider where we are in the electoral cycle at the moment. So, I hope that you get the clear answer that you were seeking there.
The consultation document also talks about the specific circumstances where the 2022 Act allows the Welsh Government to regulate at the moment. And in considering the first, which looks at the alignment of landfill disposals tax and land transaction tax with international obligations, do you anticipate any possible changes in the near future to these obligations that could require Ministers to consider regulating through this Act? And may I also ask, if possible, for greater detail on the specific practical circumstances in relation to tax avoidance where you would consider using these powers?
I thank Heledd Fychan for those constructive statements. There were a number of questions there and I'm going to try to respond to some of them. Regarding international experiences, the Green Paper does make reference to the possibility that we could learn from countries outside the UK. When you do that, of course, there is more complexity and the broader context is different. I did have the opportunity to go to the Basque Country and to speak to the Minister for finance there, about five years ago now. It was very interesting to hear about the system that they have, but the system is entirely different to ours. The Basque Country Government collects all taxes—all taxes—and they return some taxes to the centre. Well, of course, that's not the way that we do things here, and nobody else in Spain does it that way either. Just one other region, I think, uses that system. But the Green Paper, because it is a Green Paper, does ask people whether there are other examples, and we're eager to learn about those.
I just want to deal with the point on those who avoid taxes.
It's a fair question to ask: why do we not simply rely on the general anti-avoidance rule that we took when the original tax legislation was going through the Senedd? If we want to deal with tax avoidance, don't we have the powers that we need? Well, I think the truth is that, sometimes, avoidance measures, particularly in relation to land transaction tax, can emerge very quickly. If very clever lawyers think they have spotted a loophole in the law, they can exploit it, and, sometimes, they can give very bad advice to people, who, by the time all of that has wound its way through the courts, find that they were obliged to pay that tax in the first place, by which time their circumstances might create difficulties to them in doing so.
So, as well as the general anti-avoidance rule, which is an important part of the tax landscape here in Wales, the Green Paper explores whether there is not a need for some more immediate measures that a Welsh Government could take, where it becomes evident that a loophole is being exploited. I think it's a timing matter, more than anything else. The GAAR is a bit slow to respond, whereas the powers that are explored in the Green Paper are more immediate and could close things off before the problem really arises.
I thank Heledd Fychan for what she said in terms of the last point in the statement: whether it's worth us legislating in this term to extend the current Act. The consultation will end in November, and we can look immediately at the responses to that question. If a consensus does emerge, there will be enough time for us during the spring term to press ahead and to do that, but it does depend on whether there is a consensus. Personally, I do agree with what Heledd Fychan said: it's worth us doing it and to provide more time for the new Senedd to proceed to deal with the possibilities in the Green Paper and any further comments.
Item 6 is the legislative consent motion on the Animal Welfare (Import of Dogs, Cats and Ferrets) Bill. I call on the Counsel General and Minister for Delivery to move the motion—Julie James.
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 29.6, agrees that provisions in the Animal Welfare (Import of Dogs, Cats and Ferrets) Bill in so far as they fall within the legislative competence of the Senedd, should be considered by the UK Parliament.
Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Thank you very much for this opportunity to explain the background to the legislative consent motion for the Animal Welfare (Import of Dogs, Cats and Ferrets) Bill, and to outline the reasons why I believe it deserves the support of the Senedd.
This Bill represents a significant step forward in our collective efforts to improve the welfare of companion animals. It builds on the ambitions of the Animal Welfare (Kept Animals) Bill, a UK Government Bill introduced in May 2022, which promised wide-ranging animal welfare reform for farmed, companion and kept wild animals. Many of us were very disappointed indeed when that Bill fell, despite considerable work. I welcome the resurrection of key pet import provisions as a Government-backed private Member’s Bill, and the Government has written to the UK Government to express our support for the Bill.
As a nation of animal lovers, we have a collective duty to tackle puppy smuggling and the importation of pets that are not receiving the care they deserve. These practices not only compromise animal health and welfare, but also pose risks to public health and biosecurity. The measures proposed in this Bill are proportionate, evidence based and designed to deliver meaningful improvements for the welfare of dogs, cats and ferrets imported into Great Britain.
The Animal Welfare (Import of Dogs, Cats and Ferrets) Bill will restrict the commercial importation and non-commercial movement of dogs, cats and ferrets into the United Kingdom from third countries on animal welfare grounds. Specifically, it will give us powers to prohibit the movement of young puppies and kittens, which should still be with their mother, by raising the minimum age they can come into Great Britain to six months. It will also give us powers to stop dogs and cats with certain mutilations such as cropped ears or declawed paws, and heavily pregnant dogs and cats, from being brought into Britain. These practices cause suffering and cannot be allowed to continue. Animals deserve better and the people of Wales demand better.
The Bill also addresses loopholes used by unscrupulous traders, reducing the number of pet dogs, cats or ferrets that can travel under non-commercial rules to five per vehicle and three per foot passenger. By tightening the rules around commercial and non-commercial transport, the Bill will help ensure movements are genuine and transparent. It would also give us the power to reduce limits further should pet travel rules continue to be abused.
Dirprwy Lywydd, animal welfare is devolved and we take our responsibilities in this area very seriously. However, there are occasions where working collaboratively with the UK Government can bring clear benefits, including a consistent application of the law and amplifying impact. I really believe this is one such occasion, delivering substantive benefits for Wales. We have worked closely with the UK Government during every iteration of this Bill, from its inclusion in the fallen Animal Welfare (Kept Animals) Bill to its present form as a private Member's Bill, and our priority is to see this important work finally realised.
The provisions of this Bill fall within the legislative competence of the Senedd and therefore require our consent. The Bill has progressed swiftly and constructively through the UK Parliament, with amendments made at Second Reading strengthening its scope and clarity. I hope Members will join me in supporting this important Bill through its final stages.
I would like to take this opportunity to thank the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee and the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee for their scrutiny of the legislative consent memorandum. We have noted both committees' report conclusions and recommendations, and we welcome the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee's conclusion that there's no reason to object to the Senedd giving consent to the Bill. I therefore move the motion.
Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer. The Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee laid its first report on the Welsh Government’s legislative consent memorandum for the Animal Welfare (Import of Dogs, Cats and Ferrets) Bill in July, and laid its second report yesterday. The committee’s reports confirm that we agree with the Welsh Government’s assessment of the clauses requiring consent.
However, the committee also expresses disappointment at the Welsh Government’s approach to legislating on animal welfare. Members may recall that provision similar to that included in this Bill was included in the UK Government’s Animal Welfare (Kept Animals) Bill, which was withdrawn over two years ago. Members will also know that the Welsh Government intends to introduce the Prohibition of Greyhound Racing (Wales) Bill in the autumn. What is disappointing, in light of these facts, is that the Welsh Government has not taken the approach of developing a Bill for introduction to the Senedd with the purpose of addressing multiple issues affecting the health and welfare of animals in Wales. The introduction of such a piece of legislation could address important and high-profile issues as those addressed by this UK private Member’s Bill in a more timely and coherent manner, while also providing more opportunities for Members of the Senedd to scrutinise and table amendments to legislation.
The committee’s report also focuses on the delegated powers in the Bill. One of these powers is a concurrent power—that is, a power that enables both UK Government Ministers and the Welsh Ministers to make regulations in an area that is within the Senedd’s legislative competence. As a committee, we have recently seen an increase in the number of concurrent powers within UK Government Bills subject to the Senedd’s consent, including the Crime and Policing Bill, the Mental Health Bill, and the Absent Voting (Elections in Scotland and Wales) Bill. In line with the Welsh Government’s principles on UK legislation, only in exceptional cases may the Welsh Ministers agree to the creation of concurrent powers. However, the committee did not consider that it was clear from the memorandum how the Welsh Ministers believe this test was met in this case.
The Cabinet Secretary justified the inclusion of the concurrent power in response to our first report. He stated that because of the operational and practical benefits of a GB-wide approach, including a uniformed approach to export and import controls at borders, its inclusion enables co-ordinated implementation and retains the ability to act independently where needed. The Cabinet Secretary also noted that UK Government Ministers will need the consent of the Welsh Ministers before exercising this power.
Finally, the committee also expressed regret at the fact that another power in the Bill, the power to commence its provisions, lies with UK Government Ministers only, with no requirement for them to obtain the consent of the Welsh Ministers before exercising the power. In response to our first report, the Cabinet Secretary recognised that a consent mechanism would be preferable. However, he said that, as this was the third attempt to get these provisions on the statute book, he would not be seeking amendments to the Bill, in order to secure its passage through Parliament.
I have to say thank you to the Welsh Government for actually taking this forward. I'm just a bit confused now, after hearing you talk about the constitution committee and everything, so maybe you will respond to that, Cabinet Secretary.
The facts are that one in five UK vets reported seeing illegally imported puppies last year. Forty-eight per cent of vets reporting suspicious puppies were referring to French bulldogs. Three thousand dogs were linked to illegal imports from 2013 to 2023, and 116 puppies and kittens were quarantined at the port of Dover in 2023. They are not good statistics.
Cabinet Secretary, I agree with you that our nation here in Wales is a nation of animal lovers, and I know that they will be fully supportive of this going forward. All of us who are pet owners know that our dogs or cats or ferrets or rabbits or guinea pigs—you name it—are not just animals, they are members of our families. This is why it is even more devastating to see the high numbers of kittens, puppies, ferrets, rabbits, guinea pigs, whatever, imported into the United Kingdom in ways that compromise the health and well-being of those animals and have the potential to then harm other loved pets as a result. From these illegal imports, we have seen dogs and cats subjected to painful cosmetic procedures such as ear cropping and declawing. These are illegal already in the UK.
The regulations set out in this LCM will help to enact a former UK Conservative manifesto commitment to closing these loopholes exploited by very cruel and unscrupulous traders. This Bill introduces provisions to restrict the commercial importation and non-commercial movement of dogs, cats and the rest into the UK on animal welfare grounds. That, to me, says it all. We have to have the animal welfare in our minds. Too often, these poor animals are smuggled into the UK in horrendous conditions, causing immense stress and discomfort. For pregnant cats and dogs, this can also lead to miscarriage. Preventing heavily pregnant cats and dogs from entering the UK will help to reduce the risk of diseases such as Brucella canis. We are talking about lethal ailments that cannot just affect those, but other animals already in our country. It is important that the health and welfare of both the transported animals and those already in the UK are given the ultimate protective measures.
By focusing on the non-commercial movement of dogs, cats and ferrets and the rest, the Bill claims to close the loophole that allows commercial imports to be disguised as companion animals travelling with their owners. It seeks to achieve this by introducing limits on the number of animals permitted to travel in any one vehicle. This Bill will reduce the number of animals that can travel under non-commercial rules from five per person to five per vehicle, or three per foot or air passenger.
These regulations will ensure that when a non-commercial movement of a domestic pet is carried out by an authorised person, it may only take place within five days of the owner's movement. These are measures that we need to help to tackle the horrendous issue of smuggling. I have to be honest, I am really sad to see how monkeys are still being exported all over the world. Some of the experiments that are used on these monkeys you just would not subject anything or anybody to.
Yes, okay. Well, I think that this proves to our people in Wales—animal lovers, in particular—that we actually are a kind, caring and considerate legislature. Thank you.
Plaid Cymru will be supporting this LCM, but we would want to reiterate and we do share the concerns raised by the LJC committee. Clearly, animal welfare is a priority, and the Bill's provisions align with Plaid Cymru's values, as they do with Welsh Government policy aims, of course. I know the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals in Wales strongly welcomes the Bill. They've campaigned on pet smuggling for years, and they see this legislation as a long-overdue step forward to tackle serious welfare issues in the importation of vulnerable animals.
But we do, as I said, echo the LJC concerns about the Welsh Government's continued reliance on UK Bills to legislate in devolved areas, especially where we could, of course, capture a number of these issues through powers that we have and introduce our own, maybe broader Wales-specific approach to this. As the LJC rightly notes, a Senedd-led Bill could have addressed multiple high-profile animal welfare issues. We would have had greater scrutiny of those provisions. We would have had an opportunity to amend and improve those provisions as Members of our legislature here in Wales, and, of course, ultimately that would have avoided the need for multiple LCMs on different issues. I understand that the Dogs (Protection of Livestock) (Amendment) Bill LCM, I think, is coming before us next week. So, that's another one, isn't it, that really could have been something that we could have dealt with here, particularly when the Government's policy, as we were reminded, is to only accept or support LCMs on an exceptional basis. Well, crikey, the proof is in the pudding, I think.
Anyway, we're not going to oppose this. We support the LCM, but I also want to underline, moving forward, of course, that future scrutiny is essential. So, we support the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee's call for careful oversight of any regulations made under this Bill to avoid unintended consequences for rescued or legitimately treated animals. Diolch.
As chair of the cross-party group on animal welfare, I very much welcome this LCM. I have, over the years, been dismayed at hearing about the amount of puppies that have been smuggled through the ports, and cats as well, and also the cruel cosmetic mutilations such as ear cropping. Pets should not be fashion accessories or used as status symbols, which happens too often. And I know a number of organisations, including the RSPCA, have campaigned for these measures, and I'm delighted that this has been taken forward now.
It would have been part of the 2021 Animal Welfare (Kept Animals) Bill, which unfortunately was scrapped by the then Government, which would have taken forward a lot of these other LCMs as part of it, including pet theft, which was also a part of that. There was a separate Member's Bill taken forward and adopted in Westminster, and I brought forward a proposal in the Senedd that a pet abduction Act in Wales should be adopted as a Member's legislative proposal. It received cross-party support here, but I know that there wasn't time in the legislative programme.
Sixty-three pets were recorded as being stolen in north Wales alone in one year, and that's just those that are reported. So, it's still a huge issue. So, I'd again like to take the opportunity to request that a pet abduction Act in Wales be taken forward as a proposal to the new Senedd in manifestos. Thank you.
Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I want to thank Members for their contributions during the debate today. I'll just try and answer a few of the points that were raised. In terms of the contribution from the Chair of the LJC committee, the inclusion of the concurrent power we think is both appropriate and exceptional. A GB-wide approach delivers clear operational benefits, ensuring consistency on export and import controls at borders and avoiding unnecessary complexity for animal keepers, transporters and enforcement bodies, and it strengthens enforcement, prevents loopholes and provides legal clarity. And just to say that in more accessible language, I think if the Welsh Government had tried to bring forward a Bill that restricted issues at the borders, we would've encountered significant difficulty in doing that, and you can absolutely see that we would not have been able to control the import of animals through the English ports and then across our very porous border. So, I think it is exceptional. I take the points that have been made very seriously, and I think they're well made. But I do think this is exceptional for that reason, that this is about border control and that unless you control the border right around the whole of Great Britain, actually, because it's the Channel Islands as well, then you don't get the effect that you want. So, I do think it's exceptional, and I think that's why we've done it.
In addition, it's a private Member's Bill—they have slightly different rules in Westminster, the timetable is entirely different and so on. So, it's much harder for us to track it in the way that we do with UK Government Bills, and to put forward things ourselves. And so the decision was made by the Cabinet Secretary—who's not very well today, so I'm standing in for him—that we wanted to see this happen, and we wanted our pets to be protected in the way that everybody here has mentioned, and so this was the best way forward. I don't disagree at all that it would be better if the Senedd had better scrutiny, and we will endeavour to make sure the regulations are better scrutinised. But I do think that this is both appropriate and exceptional, because of the border issue that we have. This is about importation.
Just in terms of the penalties, Janet, currently it's 12 months imprisonment or an unlimited fine. The Bill allows regulations to be made under the enabling power to create new criminal offences and set proportionate maximum penalties. But it also specifies a maximum prison sentence of five years, which I think we all agree is a much more appropriate level of ability to sentence, given some of the appalling practices that we've heard today in the Chamber. I have to say, I myself am very much a pet lover, and some of the modifications, as they call them, that I've seen in the name of fashion are absolutely outrageous. So, I'm very delighted to be able to say that the Senedd will support, across the piece, a Bill that prevents at least some of that happening. Diolch.
Item 7, the legislative consent motion on the Absent Voting (Elections in Scotland and Wales) Bill. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government to move the motion—Jayne Bryant.
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 29.6 agrees that provisions in the Absent Voting (Elections in Scotland and Wales) Bill in so far as they fall within the legislative competence of the Senedd, should be considered by the UK Parliament.
Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government
Diolch, Deputy Llywydd. I'd like to thank all colleagues here today to discuss the legislative consent motion for the Absent Voting (Elections in Scotland and Wales) Bill. I'd just like to provide some background on the Bill and why it's an important step towards modernising, harmonising and improving access to absent voting for elections held here in Wales.
So, let me begin by setting out the current landscape. The Elections Act 2022 introduced an online application system to apply for absent votes, meaning postal or proxy votes, for UK general elections and police and crime commissioner elections. At the time of the Elections Act, uncertainty over the then UK Government's use of voter ID for absent voting applications meant the Welsh Government could not recommend consenting to the online system applying to devolved elections. As a result, for local government in Wales and Senedd elections, voters can only apply for absent votes through paper application forms. This diversion creates confusion for voters and administrative burdens for our electoral officers. Currently, a Welsh voter who wishes to apply for an absent vote for both a UK parliamentary election and a Senedd election can complete the UK application online, but then must fill out a separate paper form for the devolved election. There is currently no mechanism to apply for both at the same time online. This inadequacy is not in line with our principles of accessibility, participation, simplicity or improving citizen experience.
The Bill seeks to address these inconsistencies. It would empower the Welsh Government, alongside our Scottish colleagues, to make regulations enabling online applications for absent voting for devolved elections via the UK Government Digital Service. These are concurrent powers, meaning that both the Minister of the Crown and the Welsh Ministers will have the capability to make these regulations, but always with due regard to our devolution settlement. The responsibility for Welsh elections rightly falls within the legislative competence of this Senedd. However, it would be unreasonable to create a separate online application route, causing confusion and inefficiency for Welsh voters. The current online system relies on the UK digital service, which is owned and operated by UK Ministers, and it is a reserved matter. So, it is right, in this instance, that this is taken forward collaboratively through a UK Bill reliant on our consent.
Our initial concerns around the level of identity check required at the introduction of this system in 2022 have been satisfied. The Bill provides for the inclusion of an identity verification requirement that only requires an additional national insurance number. In cases where this is not available, alternative documents can be considered or attestation provided. This provides the right balance between the improved security needed in an online system and maintaining the broad accessibility for voting methods voters rely on.
The Bill includes powers that will allow the Welsh Ministers to make provisions in secondary legislation to include an identity verification requirement for absent voting applications in Wales, to align the requirements in place for reserved elections. The Bill also includes an alignment of the postal voting renewal cycles with reserved elections. This will mean that instead of renewing their signature records every five years, voters will need to reapply for their postal vote every three years. This is necessary to align to postal vote application systems, and allow voters to submit a single application to cover all the elections that they may wish to vote in. Avoiding any confusion in the application process is essential.
Throughout the Bill's development, there has been robust discussion and collaboration with the UK Government and Ministers here in Wales and Scotland. The Bill has enjoyed cross-party support throughout its passage, reflecting a shared commitment to removing unnecessary barriers to participation in our democracy.
In order for the system to be operational before next year's election, it must be implemented by December. Delays beyond this date could affect the delivery of the election. Achieving this timeline depends on the passage of several pieces of secondary legislation in the Welsh, Scottish and UK Parliaments. As the Bill is currently expected to be passed in November, there may be challenges in meeting this schedule. Discussions with Scottish Ministers are under way to examine potential alternative implementation dates after next year's election.
I would like to acknowledge the work of Tracy Gilbert MP, who introduced the Bill into the House of Commons, and Lord Murphy of Torfaen, who is currently taking the Bill through the House of Lords, and the support from colleagues on all sides. I hope Members will join me in supporting this Bill in its final stages.
I would like to take this opportunity to thank the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee for their scrutiny, and I note their conclusions and recommendations. I also welcome the Local Government and Housing Committee's recommendations on the Welsh language and their recommendation that the Senedd consents to this motion. I move this motion.
Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer. The relevant Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee report for this item was laid on 31 July. The committee's report highlights that the Bill has been discussed at the Inter-Ministerial Group for Elections and Registration. Meetings of the inter-ministerial group have been drawn to the committee's attention via correspondence. However, as far as the committee is aware, the Local Government and Housing Committee did not receive this correspondence, and perhaps the Minister can confirm whether they did or not. That means that the Welsh Government's intention for the change that will be made to legal frameworks of postal and proxy voting in Welsh devolved elections has not been made sufficiently clear to interested parties.
Further, we now know that the Cabinet Secretary wrote to the Member in charge of the Bill in December last year expressing support for the Bill. The committee is unclear why, at that point, the Cabinet Secretary did not write to the relevant Senedd committees confirming the Welsh Government's position on this Bill and providing notice that the legislative consent process would be engaged. Because this debate is happening today, the Senedd was given less than three sitting weeks to seek to understand the proposed legislative changes and to scrutinise the memorandum. This is unfortunate.
In the memorandum, the Cabinet Secretary provides many reasons seeking to explain why the Welsh Government is content to support the application of the Bill's provisions to Wales. These reasons include that the interconnective nature of the relevant Welsh, Scottish and reserved administrative systems require that these changes be taken forward in the same legislative instrument. But the Cabinet Secretary also acknowledges that a parallel system to the UK digital service could be established for devolved registration purposes only, and that changes to the online absent voting application system would be within the Senedd's legislative competence. Therefore, it's unclear to the committee why recent Bills introduced to the Senedd relating to elections in Wales have not sought to make these provisions.
The committee's report also highlights issues regarding the delegated powers in the Bill. The Welsh Government's own principles on UK legislation in devolved areas state that UK Bills should not create concurrent powers unless in exceptional circumstances, and, in such cases, such powers should be subject to consent mechanisms and carve-outs from the Government of Wales Act 2006 so that consent is not required for the Senedd to remove the power in the future.
I talked about this matter in the earlier debate on the legislative consent motion for the Animal Welfare (Import of Dogs, Cats and Ferrets) Bill. It's not clear from the memorandum to the absent voting Bill why the creation of these concurrent powers represents an exceptional case. The committee asked for an explanation, and also recommended that the Cabinet Secretary should confirm whether the relevant carve-outs from the 2006 Act have been discussed with the UK Government.
I think that this Bill sets an incredibly worrying constitutional precedent, and in an area that is pretty essential to the health of our democracy—Welsh elections, including election to this institution. The concurrent powers that are being referred to, they're concurrent in name only. Effectively, if you read the Bill as currently constituted, what it says under the section on elections to this Senedd, it says:
'A Minister of the Crown or the Welsh Ministers may by regulations make provision about the use of the UK digital service'.
So, again, it's not actually a collaborative approach, as was described. It means that the Secretary of State can, independently of Welsh Ministers, decide to change a whole range of provisions in relation to applications for postal or proxy votes through the digital portal. And, if that wasn't bad enough, what it says later on in that section is:
'The Welsh Ministers may not make regulations'.
So, we've been told earlier in the section that, 'Oh, well, the Secretary of State has the power to make regulations, the Welsh Ministers have it’, but later on it says:
'The Welsh Ministers may not make regulations under this section without the agreement of a Minister of the Crown.'
So, you know, so much for collaboration. A completely unequal partnership: 'Yes, we've both got the same powers—oh, by the way, I can use mine without your permission, but you can't use your powers without Westminster's say-so', in a pretty fundamental area, which is the regulation of our own elections, and, when you actually look at the section in greater detail, what do those powers that we're giving a future Secretary of State actually pertain to? They do pertain to the whole question of the documentation, the evidence, that is the prescribed information that's necessary to get the proxy and postal votes. We've been down this road before, haven't we? Governments—. Okay, it's a Labour Government now, but Governments of a different political hue wanting to get involved with the provision of information in terms of voter ID—we've been there. We know what that looks like. And look at the opinion polls now.
What you're doing by saying 'yes' to this motion is you're actually now, if the opinion polls don't change, putting these powers independently to change the provisions regarding access digitally for proxy and postal votes in the hands of Nigel Farage's future Government. That's why you've always got to sense check. Yes, this may seem pragmatic and sensible now, but think about what you're actually doing with this legislative consent motion, the Bill as currently constituted. You are empowering, independently of this Senedd, the Secretary of State in a future Westminster Government to decide, without any accountability to the people of Wales directly, to change these provisions. At least the Welsh Government should demand that there should be parity of power. If it's truly concurrent, then there should be a double bind; the Secretary of State should not be able to change these provisions without your agreement either. It's a completely unequal situation.
Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government
Diolch, Deputy Llywydd. I'd like to thank all Members who've contributed to this important debate today. I'll take the points very seriously that all Members have raised, and I'll go through and try and address some of those points in my closing remarks.
The Bill is a result of close collaboration between Welsh, Scottish and UK Governments. It has been introduced at our request, and I believe that the long-term health of Welsh elections, this will benefit. Some of the points—. I'll go on to a couple of those points, first of all, perhaps, raised by the Chair of the legislation committee, in terms of the concurrent powers within the Bill.
Again, the Bill introduces powers for Welsh and Scottish Ministers to apply an existing UK-wide system to their own elections, and the system is owned and operated by UK Ministers and is integrated into the UK digital service, which itself is subject to the general reservation in the Government of Wales Act 2006. Concurrent powers already exist in relation to the UK digital service within the Act, and this Bill has taken a consistent approach. In terms of the questions around the carve-out, by design the online system will integrate all elections in Wales, and this is the best way to create that simpler and more efficient system for Welsh voters, and the result of this is an online system where any changes may have direct or indirect changes on another election. In addition, the system itself is operated, again, by UK Ministers. So, again, any potential changes would incur costs that would need to be agreed beforehand. And the online system also integrates with each local authority's electoral management system, potentially creating even more unintended consequences that would need to be considered.
The point around concern around the commencement powers—. So, the Bill has been developed, again, as I said, collaboratively between all three Governments, and the subsequent statutory instruments will continue to be developed this way. So, the relevant amendments will apply to both Wales and Scotland and, as such, the provisions will need to come into force for all of them at once, under careful co-ordination between all involved. As I said, I've had discussions with my Scottish counterparts as well as UK Government Ministers. So, to help ensure this, the responsibility for the initial drafting of the instruments for the commencement power will be undertaken by Welsh and Scottish Governments in line with our own secondary legislation, and this will help to ensure that the legislation works effectively for devolved Governments. The draft will then be agreed with the UK Government, who will then take it forward on our behalf.
Item 8 has been postponed until 7 October, so we'll move on.
In accordance with Standing Order 12.24, unless a Member objects, the two motions under items 9 and 10, the general principles and the financial resolution in respect of the Bus Services (Wales) Bill, will be grouped for debate but with separate votes. I see that there are no objections.
To propose that Senedd Cymru, in accordance with Standing Order 26.11:
Agrees to the general principles of the Bus Services (Wales) Bill.
Motion NDM8968 Ken Skates
To propose that Senedd Cymru, for the purposes of any provisions resulting from the Bus Services (Wales) Bill, agrees to any increase in expenditure of a kind referred to in Standing Order 26.69, arising in consequence of the Bill.
Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I move the motions, and I'm pleased to introduce this debate on the general principles of the Bus Services (Wales) Bill and to present the motion on the financial resolution. I'd like to thank the Chairs and members of the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee, the Finance Committee and the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee for their diligent scrutiny of the Bill during this stage and for their reports. I welcome in particular the recommendation of the climate change committee that the Senedd should support the general principles of the Bill. I'd also like to thank the organisations and the individuals who gave evidence and who continue to offer their expertise as we prepare for bus reform.
Now, one of our key programme for government commitments is to create a modern legislative basis for transport in Wales, and bus reform is at the heart of that commitment. The Bill offers a great opportunity to implement a long-term vision for the improvement of public transport by establishing the legislative structure to enable a new system for delivering franchised local bus services. It will enable improved stability within the bus market through a co-ordinated approach to delivering a local bus service network that better serves the public.
Now, I've been listening very carefully to the points raised during the committee sessions and I've considered their reports. I've set out my responses to the recommendations in correspondence, which they already have received. Therefore, all three committees are aware of my position. Moving from the current deregulated model will support a truly integrated transport system that is fit for purpose. It establishes the creation of a Wales bus network plan, setting out the services required for the purpose of securing safe, integrated, sustainable, efficient and economic transport in Wales. It also establishes clear requirements on operators, local authorities and Welsh Ministers in relation to the collecting and sharing of information, which will be crucial to inform the development of the network plan and for building user confidence in their local services.
I have noted the discussions and the subsequent recommendations regarding key matters relating to the Bill, such as network planning, provision of guidance, consultation and collaboration, and ensuring we have the capacity and expertise at a national level to deliver this ambitious programme. I'm pleased to say that we've taken on board or have already begun work on most of the committee's recommendations.
In partnership with Welsh Government and local authorities, Transport for Wales, who will undertake much of the delivery of this Bill on the Welsh Ministers' behalf, has already done a significant amount of work on planning and implementing bus reform, including much of what will be required to implement the Bill. In south-west Wales, the first region to be rolled out, Transport for Wales has already been working very closely with the corporate joint committee and local authorities to develop the base network. Over the summer, they have held a number of in-person events and workshops across the region. These have been very positive and will be replicated across all other regions.
I've instructed officials and Transport for Wales to work with key stakeholders to develop advice notes to aid operators in their understanding of matters such as information provision, permitting, and for small and medium sized enterprises in particular, support with procurement. Work has also commenced on a memorandum of understanding between Welsh Ministers, Transport for Wales and local authorities to agree ways of working. People are at the heart of everything we do. I've asked Transport for Wales to take forward the committee's recommendation to develop a passenger charter that is underpinned by a focus on accessibility.
The Bill recognises the significant contribution made by community transport to the well-being of our vulnerable people. We've welcomed the broad support given by the third sector for the Bill and we recognise that effective engagement with operators needs to continue to provide assurance and clarity over how community transport will be integrated into the wider network.
A number of matters raised by the committees are clearly outside the scope of the Bill, for example, learner travel and infrastructure. These matters are integral to the well-being of communities and the bus industry in Wales, and as such remain key issues on which we must maintain a focus. Co-ordinating the network and delivering local bus service contracts in a way that works alongside learner travel will make a significant difference to children and young people, as well as securing the continued health of the SME bus market, particularly in rural areas, and we can only do this in collaboration with local authorities and corporate joint committees. Similarly, better co-operation to deliver bus priority measures and accessible bus infrastructure will help to reduce congestion and encourage people back onto buses.
I recognise there are things we need to do as a priority, including ensuring that we set out for public consultation a clear policy in relation to the application of the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations 2006 under the new system. I've also instructed officials and Transport for Wales to work with Cardiff Council and Newport City Council to examine the role of the existing municipal bus companies under the franchise system. We're engaging with key stakeholders, including the unions and industry representatives, on both these priorities and will update the Senedd in due course.
Finally, turning to the financial resolution, I thank the Finance Committee for its scrutiny of the Bill and the committee's interest in the cost methodologies and potential impact upon funding to operators, local authorities and statutory partners. Under the current system, we're spending around £600 million to support the bus network in this parliamentary term, but we have very little control over how that money is used. This Bill is going to give us more control over where the money goes.
In greater Manchester, the number of bus journeys has increased by 14 per cent year-on-year in the first franchised areas. When this Bill is in place, increasing patronage will mean increased revenue in the farebox, giving more funds to invest back into the bus network. This will ensure that we can provide services where they are needed, not just where they are profitable. The regulatory impact assessment confirms that the total cost of the Bill will be £623.5 million over the 30-year appraisal period. This total is made up of £358.1 million transitional costs and £265.3 million recurring costs. I'm pleased to confirm that I have accepted all five of the recommendations made by the Finance Committee and will update the RIA at Stage 2 accordingly. I therefore ask the Senedd to agree the financial resolution in respect of the Bus Services (Wales) Bill. Diolch.
Thank you very much, Llywydd, and on behalf of the committee, I'd like to begin by thanking all those who gave evidence to inform our committee scrutiny of this Bill. We're particularly grateful to the local authorities, the operators, the passenger groups and community representatives who shared their experiences and expertise with us. I'd also like to thank the Cabinet Secretary for the constructive way that he has engaged with the committee during Stage 1.
Llywydd, as we know, Wales’s bus services are essential to our communities. They connect people to the places where they work, learn and socialise. It’s how they visit family and this is how they get to health appointments. And stakeholders were clear that the current deregulated bus system is no longer fit for purpose. The issues, of course, are familiar to all of us as Members: declining patronage in several areas, fragile rural services, and then the patchwork of provision that too often leaves passengers uncertain about the reliability of services. Against this backdrop, the case for reform is compelling and strong.
The committee has therefore recommended that the Senedd agrees the general principles of the Bill. Having said that—there's always a 'but', isn't there—while we do agree that this Bill is an important and necessary step forward, we do share the concerns of many stakeholders that the Bill as drafted lacks detail in some key areas. It has been disappointing that significant aspects of the proposals will only become clear once the Bill has become law. This approach has made it harder for stakeholders to engage fully in the scrutiny process and has created concerns and, in some cases, misunderstandings about the Government’s intentions.
Several cross-cutting themes emerged during our scrutiny. The first that I want to talk about is the extent to which key aspects of the new system will be left to non-statutory guidance or memoranda of understanding. Of course, guidance has an important role in ensuring effective implementation, but where the Bill relies heavily on non-statutory mechanisms, there is a possibility, of course, that future Governments could change significant aspects of the policy without proper Senedd scrutiny. This could create uncertainty for passengers, operators and local authorities.
This is one example, namely the development of a passenger charter, which we heard about earlier. We recommended that the Bill should include a statutory duty to develop a passenger charter and to consult on it. The Cabinet Secretary has agreed to progress a charter, but not to legislate for it. Now, in our view, the public would have greater assurance if key commitments such as this were set out on the face of the Bill, and not left to the goodwill of a future Government.
Secondly, affordability and managing expectations—that's an important subject for us as a committee. There were concerns from industry stakeholders that the financial assumptions underpinning the Bill are not sufficiently robust. The scale of the ambition is considerable, but without sustained investment, there is a risk that expectations will be raised but not met. Improvements to services will of course take time, and the Welsh Government and Transport for Wales must communicate clearly and consistently with passengers about what changes they can expect, and when they can expect to see them. In that sense, lessons must be learned from past experiences, in rail reform specifically.
Diolch, Llywydd. I welcome the opportunity to participate in this debate today, and I’m pleased to see that the Cabinet Secretary has accepted all five of our recommendations in full.
I'd like to begin by addressing the Bill’s 30-year appraisal period, which is significantly longer than the 10-year period we typically consider. The Cabinet Secretary told us that a longer appraisal period is not unusual for transport-related policies. However, we found it challenging to assess the accuracy of costs given the risks associated with long-term forecasting. And while we are broadly content with the financial implications presented in the regulatory impact assessment, it is important to acknowledge that the full picture remains uncertain.
In terms of how the costs relating to franchising options were estimated, we understand that the Welsh Government has engaged with other countries and operators to understand their perspective and to learn lessons. In particular, the Cabinet Secretary has highlighted the need to ensure a mix of operators, including SMEs, and emphasised the importance of social value in its approach to franchising, but it is unclear how these factors are reflected in the cost estimates. As a result, our first recommendation asks the Cabinet Secretary to outline how these will be incorporated, monitored and evaluated as part of the implementation of the bus franchising provisions. I'm glad to say that the Cabinet Secretary has responded positively to this recommendation and committed to considering these matters robustly when implementing the Bill and measuring its effectiveness.
In terms of growing the bus network, the Cabinet Secretary has referred to two franchised network plans being developed by Transport for Wales. The first, known as the base network, assumes no funding uplift, whilst the second, called the aspirational network, requires additional funding. We are grateful to the Cabinet Secretary for providing additional information on the methodology used in developing these networks, but we are disappointed that this was not included in the RIA in the first place.
While we note that the Bill’s impact on growing the bus network in Wales will depend on the funding decisions of future governments, we believe that the Cabinet Secretary needs to set out his vision for bus reform and take ownership of the costs in the here and now in order to justify this course of action. We are, therefore, pleased that the Cabinet Secretary has accepted our recommendation calling for clarity on the costs to deliver the aspirational network.
The acquisition of bus depots and installation of charging systems represents the most significant cost during the transition period, at £178.2 million. While the Cabinet Secretary is confident that this figure is accurate, he told us that it is based on assumptions, and the Welsh Government has not yet determined which depots it wishes to acquire. Again, I am pleased that the Cabinet Secretary has accepted our third recommendation, which asks him to explain how these costs have been determined, including the assumptions made.
Finally, Llywydd, we heard that the net-zero-emissions bus fleet will be procured through leasing arrangements. Our final recommendation sought further detail on these costs and the assumptions made. In response, the Cabinet Secretary has indicated that the focus has now turned to TfW purchasing the bus fleet and leasing it to operators. The Cabinet Secretary has committed to reflecting on the implications of this change when revising the RIA after Stage 2, and we welcome that approach. Thank you.
Diolch, Llywydd. The Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee’s report on the Bill drew four conclusions and made 11 recommendations. I thank the Cabinet Secretary for his response, which the committee considered yesterday. The committee’s report contains several recommendations that requested clarity from the Cabinet Secretary about the drafting of some provisions in the Bill and about specific delegated powers. I encourage Members to read those recommendations and the accompanying responses from the Cabinet Secretary.
The committee’s report includes commentary on human rights considerations, the impact of the legislation and the balance between the detail on the face of the Bill and that left to Welsh Ministers to determine using delegated powers. The committee’s long-standing view is that an assessment of a Bill’s engagement with the rights protected by the European convention on human rights should be included as a matter of course within the explanatory memorandum, and that the assessment should also set out steps that have been taken to make that engagement proportionate. The committee is not convinced by the Cabinet Secretary’s view that including a summary assessment of the impact of a Bill on human rights in the integrated impact assessment is sufficient, nor is the committee convinced that including a full human rights assessment in the EM would increase unnecessarily the amount of documentation associated with the legislation.
As for the integrated impact assessment included in the EM to the Bill, the justice system impact identification assessment was not published until nearly two months after the Bill was introduced to the Senedd. The committee was disappointed with this; it is not something that is welcome or that we believe should be repeated.
The committee’s report also highlights comments made by the Cabinet Secretary that further amendments to other legislation are needed as a consequence of this Bill. The Senedd will wish to note that, should the Bill proceed to Stage 2 following this afternoon’s debate, the Cabinet Secretary intends to bring forward what appears to be a significant cohort of amendments. These will include amendments to provisions on quality partnerships, quality contract agreements and joint ticketing systems. The Cabinet Secretary has stated that the Welsh Government will also take the opportunity to tidy up the statute book and remove some provisions that are no longer relevant in Wales, as well as bringing forward amendments to repeal existing provisions to ensure legislation is not retained that overlaps with provisions in the Bill.
It is unclear why the Bill as introduced did not include provisions that addressed all these matters. It is not good legislative practice to introduce incomplete primary legislation to a Parliament because it limits the ability of Members to scrutinise it fully. Neither is it good legislative practice for a Government to seek delegated powers where there is no intention to use them. There are several powers sought in the Bill that cause the committee concern in this regard, namely the powers in sections 15, 21 and 30. Once delegated, these powers will be available to all future Governments, and a future Government may exercise them in a way that does not deliver the intention of the current Government that sought them or the Senedd that approved them. In the committee’s view, the seeking of such powers is particularly bad practice when included in primary legislation that the Welsh Government has little opportunity to implement, given the sixth Senedd will dissolve in April ahead of the Senedd elections next year.
I'd like to begin by thanking everyone who's engaged with the committee process so far and have spoken also with me directly about this Bill. From our side of the Chamber, the Welsh Conservatives will be voting against the general principles of the Bus Services (Wales) Bill. Whilst we recognise the intention behind it and share the desire to improve public transport across Wales, the Bill falls short in a number of significant areas and there's far too much detail missing to enable relevant support.
Firstly, we are concerned that the Bill puts at risk too many of our small and medium-sized enterprises—the very companies that keep so much of our transport network running. We've heard consistently from stakeholders that while they may support the Bill's broad aims, especially around integration—[Interruption.] Certainly.
Just regarding the small and medium-sized enterprise businesses, that was raised at committee, and it's being addressed by having smaller bundles, going forward, of two contracts, and giving them support, because every small business is so important to ensure that school contracts are also delivered, and that's being addressed.
Thanks for the intervention. Of course, we're debating the Bus Services (Wales) Bill as it's presented to us today. Those assurances for me are not certain enough, because we have seen, for example, a similar model rolled out in Manchester, and, of course, the Cabinet Secretary is pursuing that similar type of model. Far too many small businesses folded following that franchising over in Manchester. And, of course, the issue for those smaller operators is that they may be excluded from a procurement process due to excessive administrative requirements. We know the Confederation of Passenger Transport has offered a constructive solution that Transport for Wales provide model policies that smaller operators can adopt and adapt, but this is not considered within the Bill.
The Member who intervened—from north Wales—pointed out the importance of the learner travel contracts as well, but we have seen some flip-flopping from the Government on this issue. The Coach and Bus Association Cymru told the climate change committee that many of their SME members are petrified about what this Bill could mean for their future because of this movement around the learner travel contracts. The children's commissioner pointed out her concerns with this element, and, in May, the Cabinet Secretary said learner travel was outside the scope of the Bill. Since then, officials have suggested implementation contracts could bring it back in, and it's that kind of inconsistency, that lack of detail, that is deeply unhelpful for those operators and those families who rely on that reliable school transport every day.
As the Chair of the climate change committee pointed out, what the Bill completely fails to address is the single biggest challenge facing bus services today, and that's congestion. Reliability is crucial. You can't have a modern, integrated public transport system if buses are stuck in traffic and consistently late. The Confederation of Passenger Transport suggested a number of workable solutions, but these will not be addressed through this legislation.
We, of course, have broader concerns about the financing of this Bill. In Manchester, again, the model that you're seeking to replicate as a Government, CPT estimates that it's costing—here's a fact for the Member chuntering from the back benches—CPT estimates that it's costing £100 million more than the pre-franchising funding baseline to deliver the current network. So, in Manchester, moving to the model that the Government is pursuing has cost £100 million more. There is concern that the combination of increasing costs, low demand and low economic growth would create significant instability in our important bus network. We also heard concerns from the WLGA about how the Government is considering using revenue raised in urban areas to subsidise rural routes. While some of that may be appropriate, the Bill offers no clarity on how this tension will be managed.
I must say this is a very disappointing speech and a complete reversal from the support the Conservatives have given under his predecessor to the principle of this Bill. His objections, as Carolyn Thomas pointed out, are amendments, and are not against the general principles. He's adopted wholesale the talking points of the multinational corporations who are against this Bill. And the idea of comparing Wales to Jersey is laughable. And for the record, the system we're adopting is not the same as Manchester. It's a different system based on international good practice.
I'm grateful for the Member’s intervention, but I'm clearly pointing out significant areas of concern that show that this Bill, or the principle of this Bill, is not in a state for this Senedd to adopt the principle. There's far too much detail missing from what's in front of us today. And let's not forget why this matters. Buses are not just a transport issue; they're a vital tool for social inclusion, rural connectivity and economic growth. But all of those aims are undermined if the system we put in place ends up excluding those SMEs, failing rural communities, and ignoring the operational realities on the ground.
So, in conclusion, the detail, or in many cases the lack of it, gives cause for concern. We urge the Cabinet Secretary and the Welsh Government to reflect on the views of SMEs, stakeholders and public service users, and return with something that truly supports all parts of Wales. Diolch yn fawr iawn.
Well, Plaid Cymru welcomes the principles of this Bill with the aim of more affordable and reliable bus services across Wales. As we've heard already, Llywydd, buses are an integral part of the weft and weave of our society and our economy. One in five people in Wales have no access to a car, and buses are vital to enable them to get to work, to see friends and family, and to access crucial services. We cannot afford to not provide that security and to not move forward. However, over previous decades, the use of buses has declined. There is a price for the reform of this sector, and changing who is responsible alone will not guarantee success.
Now, we do have concerns that there are gaps in this Bill that may prevent us from achieving the ambitious and necessary aims of having more reliable, swifter bus services, but we need a clear plan to deliver that, because, again, as we've heard, without tackling congestion, buses will continue to be unreliable, passengers will continue to be disappointed, and change will not be delivered.
Another challenge is ensuring that there is support for SMEs. These small companies are the thread connecting our rural communities. Without them, how will people be able to travel miles to get to shops, hospitals and workplaces? Also, they are often the ones providing crucial services to our schools.
And this is where the risk is perhaps greatest, Llywydd, because if those local companies collapse, it's the children and families who could suffer. Learner travel must be guaranteed, and therefore it must be included in this Bill. We can't gamble with whether or not a child gets to school safely. It should not be a recommendation that our bus network includes learning establishments. Education is a right. We all agree on that. No child or young person should find that right blocked by a lack of access to transport. Learner travel cannot be left as an afterthought; it must be guaranteed in law here. And since this Bill was meant to be a solution to the issue of learner travel, I would be grateful if the Government could outline how exactly franchising the network will take schools and colleges into account.
We must also consider carefully the need to make bus travel more accessible. The Cabinet Secretary will be aware of how important an issue this is for many of us. For many disabled people, catching the bus is not a question of convenience, but of necessity. Bus stops should not be situated on steep inclines, and pavements surrounding them should be suitable. This Bill offers an opportunity—or it should—to enshrine more rights of disabled access in law.
RNIB Cymru has revealed that only one in 10 blind and partially sighted people can make all the journeys they want or need to by bus because of barriers with journey planning, getting to and from bus stops, pavement obstructions, dangerous bus stop designs and a lack of audio announcements on those bus journeys themselves. They've called for accessibility to be embedded as a distinct and core duty in legislation, to be stronger than the current 'have regard' duty outlined in section 4 of the Bill. More information should be provided in accessible formats and clear design standards for bus infrastructure should also be fought for here. Indeed, I agree with RNIB Cymru that minimum accessibility standards should be enshrined in operator contracts.
Guide Dogs Cymru have also highlighted similar concerns. They've quoted one guide dog owner saying that people with a vision impairment are an afterthought, with critical provision relegated to future possibilities rather than urgent priorities. And as they point out, at present, there is only one mention of accessibility on the face of the Bill. Again, to quote Guide Dogs Cymru, accessibility standards should be embedded in the planning of bus services and in the detail of contracts.
So, we do welcome this legislation, though of course we think that there are many ways in which it should go further, but they are no reason to throw the baby, or indeed the bus, out with the bath water here. I look forward to continuing to scrutinise the Bill in committee in its further stages. Yes, there need to be improvements, but my goodness it's needed.
I welcome that the bus Bill is being delivered in this Senedd term under a Welsh Government that believes in investing in people and public services. I remember bringing a petition to the Petitions Committee entitled 'Buses for people not profit' after seeing services terminated as they were deemed not profitable, leaving communities stranded and people literally in tears and not being able to get to town. Buses are a lifeline for many.
The climate change committee visited Transport for Greater Manchester to hear about the Bee Network, which really struck home with us that we must manage expectations. It could be costly, but it shouldn't be a deterrent. We need to get the pipeline in place now in this Senedd term. We need to make sure that we bring along small companies, as has been discussed—which didn't happen in Manchester—because they are important to our rural economy and also to deliver that school transport. Every day, I know that dealing with school transport is really difficult for local authorities to make sure that we've got enough operators, escorts, et cetera, it's really fragile, but I am pleased that it has been addressed in the response that we've had by saying that small bundles will be available to bid for and that there will be support for doing those complicated contracts from Transport for Wales officers.
Expertise and experience will be needed to deliver this huge change. Public bus transport is complicated, it's also linked with school transport in many areas of north Wales already with the virement of budgets. This has been a Bill that we did hope would improve school transport as well. I remember, when I was on the local government and housing committee, hearing how the cost of school transport has increased by 40 per cent over recent years, especially since COVID. And again, I recall as a Cabinet member that school transport costs were about £700 per pupil; now, they're about £1,200 or even more per pupil, on average. I understand that we need to get this framework in place, though, and it has to be a public bus transport framework, but I hope in the future that we will have funding to improve this and to link it into school transport.
During a Transport for Wales meeting regarding the roll-out of the £1 young persons' bus fare, I was pleased and reassured to hear that Transport for Wales have new recruits. I was actually talking to new officers there with amazing expertise, which was a worry for me. One had many years of experience of delivering concessionary passes, and another one had worked for a local authority for many years as well. So, that experience is growing in Transport for Wales, and I was really reassured.
We need to grow participation with young people as well so that we can reinvest, and that's why I'm pleased that we've got this young person's guarantee as well. Accessibility, as has been mentioned by Delyth Jewell, is hugely important. I heard from Guide Dogs Cymru, and they said how a bus stop was moved to an inaccessible place by a car park. And also from drivers, who said a bus stop had moved without consultation with the drivers by local authorities. So, we need to make sure that local authorities consult with drivers, operators and people with disabilities before they make these changes with furniture.
When this Bill came before us in committee at first, I was so enthusiastic and thought, 'This is going to really turn around what are poor bus services for our local communities currently'. We've got to remember that 12 per cent of people in Wales use a bus at least once a week. Seventy-two million passenger journeys took place in Wales in 2024, but that is still significantly lower than journeys taken in the rest of Great Britain. Four thousand members of staff in Wales are in employment reliant on local bus services. In England, outside of London, 62,000 are actually employed, and in Scotland, 12,000 are employed within the bus service sector.
Buses are the backbone of our communities. They are vital for commuters, school pupils and the elderly getting to important appointments and things, shopping—lots of different reasons. We've talked so often over the years here about social isolation, and people's fear of going out. Obtaining a good bus service is so important. Otherwise, it just contributes to social isolation. There are massive failings now. We've seen our bus services sliced to the bone and so we have to do something.
I agree with a lot of what my colleague Sam Rowlands has said. This Bill is not the right vehicle—pardon the pun—in which to deliver a better bus service. But for my small and medium-sized enterprises, who are now on the brink of panic, because they feel—[Interruption.] Hold on a minute. If you want to intervene, go ahead and do it. Over the last two decades, Welsh passenger journeys have declined by a quarter, and we're aware that COVID was quite unhelpful, but I would have thought by now we would have started to see more bus usage, but we have not.
Operating costs have increased due to interest rates, corporation tax, limitations in investment and additional capital costs. Many people have mentioned, and we went, didn't we, to see it in Manchester, and the differences actually between Manchester—. I'm not thinking myself, personally, that it was the best model to go and compare to us here in Wales with our rural areas and what have you. Welsh passenger journeys have declined. Operating costs have increased as a result of taxes placed on them now. Bus services that the elderly and vulnerable rely on to access hospitals, shops and banks are being withdrawn due to the high cost of running these services.
All this is happening under the watch of successive Welsh Labour Governments. While action to improve our bus services is undoubtedly needed, franchising, as proposed in the Bill, is not the answer and carries significant risk. We saw so many stakeholders come to give evidence. They had nothing to gain by not telling the truth. We had the RNIB, Guide Dogs Wales, other major organisations supporting groups for those with disabilities, and, frankly, they are really concerned about this current Bill.
The Finance Committee report notes that the expected benefits of the Bill are five times greater than its costs over a 30-year horizon—five times greater. In terms of spending, even on current spending, the regulatory impact assessment estimates a 22 per cent increase in passengers by 2040, on the base network. So, I'm afraid your concerns are not backed up by the evidence.
Well, I'm afraid you've said things on other Bills going forward—the 20 mph—and look at the actual and real costs of that, and what that's going to cost. So, I've got to be honest, you're not the right person to be telling me this.
While the Cabinet Secretary stated that the proposals set out in the Bill will ultimately lead to savings, as there will be more control over how bus service funding is used, it doesn't fully account for the costs of creating the necessary infrastructure or the ongoing costs associated with franchised services.
Another concern raised was the impact the contract application process will have. Manchester told us that they've lost a lot of their small and medium-sized enterprises. I'm not prepared to stand here and see my small and medium-sized bus companies in Aberconwy be sacrificed in this way. Ninety-nine per cent of businesses in Wales are SMEs, and we should be considering them—not that this Welsh Government does consider them on other aspects, but there you go.
Lee Robinson, the executive director of Transport for Wales, affirmed the importance of SMEs in bus provision during the evidence session, and he urged for more simplicity in the contract design. Many smaller bus companies have fewer staff available to complete these contract bids. How many organisations have we seen where they have individual posts within their companies or organisations to fill those grant application forms out? It's virtually impossible for small and medium-sized enterprises to even get a look in, and I can't support that.
One guide dog commented that, once again, people with a vision impairment—[Interruption.] Oh, she's giggling again—are an afterthought.
'Guide Dogs Cymru' I said. It has stated that the Bill fails people with a vision impairment by not embedding enforceable commitments. [Interruption.] You're very childish and immature.
I'm just going to ask the Cabinet Secretary: does the Cabinet Secretary not think there is a different way of promoting franchising? One of the best ways, however, to improve the bus network in Wales is to support our smaller and medium-sized enterprises. Instead of doing away with them, why don't you bring policies forward to actually grow them and allow them to take the role forward? After all, they've been serving us well for many years.
I fully support the general principles of the Bill. Perhaps we can focus our comments for the remainder of the debate on what is before us. From many of the concerns I've heard raised, I hope that we will have very lively amendments put forward. Because this is a crucial matter for so many people in our communities.
I have to say that, over the summer—no surprise to anyone that's been following the news in South Wales Central regarding school transport—buses have been something that have been in my inbox a lot. I'm sure a number of my constituents have also contacted the Cabinet Secretary on this very matter. I was also lucky enough to join the committee for one of the scrutiny sessions, and it is something that many of us take a keen interest in. Because cars are seen by some—they think that everybody has a car, but for the majority of people we represent, it's actually buses that people care about the most. There's been a great deal of investment in trains, but it's actually buses that are the most accessible form of transport for the majority of people in our communities. I'm sure many of you, like myself, represent a number of communities where car ownership is very low, they don't have access to trains, and, actually, the bus network is failing them currently. So, they will be desperate to see progress on this.
One of the things that really struck me during the scrutiny process was how ambitious it is, but also how long it is going to take to really get the network that will really work for people, so that they see the benefits immediately. I would like to ask the Cabinet Secretary—I note your points in terms of the learner travel Measure, but I do think we have to look at this in the whole. The points made by the Chair of the committee are extremely valid, because if I can ask you to look at the example right now in Rhondda Cynon Taf, where the changes to school transport have been implemented—. Last week I spent an afternoon seeing teachers at bus stops trying to ensure that children were safely getting onto public buses. There were queues. The infrastructure involved is going to be significant in terms of ensuring there's enough shelter, because there isn't enough shelter currently, in terms of ensuring that pavements are wide enough, and that we have traffic control measures in place. I think if we don't solve learner travel and look at it in the whole mix, I really worry what it will mean in terms of the safety of pupils as well. I also worry that we can't delay. I see, in terms of the learner travel Measure, that the consultation has been extended. But, actually, there are very real problems now and safety concerns, and I do worry what it will mean in terms of attendance as well.
So, I would like to get some clarification that when you talk about the infrastructure, we are talking about those very practical things. We've heard a number of important points being made in terms of accessibility. I would echo those points. I know they're points I've raised with you previously, Cabinet Secretary. You've given me the assurances that these are things that are crucial to you. But unless we have these improvements, people will lose confidence very quickly in terms of using the buses that are available to them. It's having that clear road map for people to understand, 'When will the change be in place that I require now?', because, currently, things like community transport are stopping people from getting to vital hospital appointments. It means that people are isolated. They're not accessing treatment at times—something the Coalfields Regeneration Trust raised with us as an issue only this lunchtime in the Senedd. So, this is very complex, but I think people will want to know, 'When will the service be transformed in my community?' And if we can't give them an answer on the learner travel Measure, I worry that they will lose faith in this bus Bill. So, I would urge you to please consider how we can incorporate the learner travel Measure into this. I'm sure the safe school transport RCT campaign have a number of suggestions for you, and I would also ask if you would be willing to meet with them and campaigners—perhaps visit with us—to see what it actually means in practice, and some of the changes that are required so that this is successful—something that I would hope all of us would want to see achieved.
As far as possible, I want to see learner travel integrated with public transport, because the current system isn't working. Certainly, in Cardiff, we have learner transport that costs £400 million a year, even to those on free school meals. We have unsupervised buses where young people—. I mean, the driver is having to put up with consistent vandalism going on, bullying going on, and there's nobody there to stop it. If we had it integrated with public transport, then the public at large would be saying, 'Sit down, son', or, you know, would be stopping this horrendous thing going on. As it is, one single person, one driver, cannot control the behaviour of up to 30 or 40 children. Clearly, there is bullying going on as well. So, I'm really worried about that. In urban areas, I want to see proper mapping, ensuring that we are serving all the communities that need to go to secondary school X, and that it is done on public transport.
Transport poverty is a major issue across Wales. People are struggling to maintain a car that costs more than 10 per cent of their income, in some cases a lot more, simply because there is not reliable public transport. There's an impact on the individual, there's an impact on the economy, and that's simply because the public transport that's available is simply not reliable enough. So, we have to do a massive mapping exercise to ensure that people can get to their places of work and that they can also get to the places where childcare is available, because not many employers will want you turning up with a two-year-old to start work.
So, I think the Conservative position on this, 'We don't like it, therefore, we're just not voting for it,' is absolutely ridiculous, particularly with Janet Finch-Saunders being on the relevant committee where you are involved intimately at Stage 1 and Stage 2. If you don't think the Bill as constituted is going to deliver for SMEs, then you need to introduce clauses that will ensure that happens. I am astonished that that might be the case, because we've already passed the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Act 2023, which ought to oblige those who are commissioning services that contracts are sufficiently small in bite-sized chunks to enable SMEs to successfully bid.
There's an economic reason for that as well, because it's all part of supporting the foundational economy. If we simply allow multinational companies to gobble up all the contracts that are available, guess where the profits go? Outside Wales. So, the SMEs are absolutely fundamental to justice and for the functioning of our own economy. It simply isn't good for the economy if people can't hold down a job because transport doesn't exist to get them there, or that they're spending far too much of their time—the productivity is far too low—if it takes an hour to get to work and an hour back.
I've consistently raised the poor levels of bus services in the region I represent, leaving many communities, especially in areas like Neath Port Talbot—many of whose Valleys communities, like the Swansea, Dulais, Neath and Afan valleys, of course, have no rail services at all—then cut off from work opportunities, from education and training and healthcare, when they can't depend on the bus service network. And really, that's why this Bill is so important. It offers a chance to reverse decades of decline and neglect, and put passengers first. Like Heledd Fychan, my inbox is full of e-mails from constituents telling me about their tales of why they've been left behind, why they've missed appointments, why they've had to cancel hospital appointments, where they are unable to take up work because, if they can get there, they can't get back in the evening et cetera.
So, I really welcome the fact that South Wales West will be the first region to move to franchising, and I think it's a real opportunity to build a network that is reliable, that is integrated, but it really must be designed around people's needs. To do that, we really need to empower people to truly be part of that process and to ensure accountability, and I would really echo the points made by the Chair of the climate change committee around the passenger charter. We do not want people sitting on CJCs making these decisions. I know many of them are elected representatives—many of them are not bus users.
It's fitting we are debating this, of course, in Catch the Bus Month, a time to celebrate the social, economic and environmental value of buses. And it's something that I've raised before and something I feel should have been promoted much more over the years to increase and encourage use.
We've talked a lot about accessibility, and reform must really mean accessibility, and I, Cabinet Secretary, have raised again with you, many times, issues around accessibility across the public transport network, on both bus and rail. We've heard the concerns from people like Guide Dogs Cymru and RNIB Cymru. I would like the Cabinet Secretary to confirm that defined, minimum accessibility standards will be embedded in all franchising contracts from the outset, including ensuring cash can always be used to buy your fare. Diolch.
I'm very pleased to be able to speak in this debate today, and I've been pleased to sit on the climate change committee, which has been scrutinising the Bill, and to take part in the visit to Manchester, which I thought was absolutely fascinating. What it highlighted to me was, actually, the scale of the task about what has to be done, but it was also very encouraging.
I think that this Bill of bus reform is a great opportunity to deliver locally an integrated transport system, and it's good to hear that it has begun so well in South Wales West. But I think it is absolutely crucial that we do all we can to involve everybody, as many people as we possibly can, in the preparations that are going on.
The Chair has summarised the main points that the committee has made, and many Members have raised the issue about accessibility. I want to really reiterate the importance of that point, so that anyone in Wales can use buses, can use them easily, without fear of not being able to travel. I know that we have received information from the RNIB and from Guide Dogs Cymru to ensure that public transport infrastructure is suitable for all. So, I support the points that have been made. I am glad there is a passenger charter, and that Transport for Wales's accessibility and inclusion panel will be involved in the consultation and engagement on the implementation of all aspects of franchising. But it does need to be clearly set out in the Bill about what 'accessibility' means, what the required standards are, and what happens if they're not met. Members have made those points already, but I do think it's so important.
Another point that hasn't been raised, which Guide Dogs Cymru have promoted, is that bus drivers should undertake mandatory disability equality training, and that this should be part of the contractual agreements. And I have had situations in my constituency where bus users—disabled bus users—have really suffered, actually, on the buses, and I think this would be a very good thing to bring in, because mandatory training is currently being developed for taxi drivers in Wales, so this training could easily be adopted for bus drivers.
I also think that the infrastructure, which has been mentioned, is so important—the importance of bus stops and the moratorium on shared bus stop borders, which has happened in England. I believe that that should come here to Wales, because, surely, nothing can be more alarming than stepping out of a bus into a bus lane, particularly if you can’t see what’s happening. So, I’d like to have a response from the Cabinet Secretary on that.
I think the SMEs are very important. We’ve got to do all we possibly can to ensure that they are involved in the new developments, and I believe the Cabinet Secretary is committed to that. So, I reiterate the points about the SMEs.
I’m grateful to you, Presiding Officer, and grateful to the Cabinet Secretary for bringing this Bill in front of the Senedd this afternoon. I remember back in 2009, I think it was, that myself and Huw Lewis were talking about bringing forward a legislative consent motion, in those dark, dismal days, in order to bring forward powers that would enable the Welsh Government to actually legislate in exactly this way.
And what concerns me is that we deliver a system that connects people. I think the Bill talks about connecting communities, but communities are people, and we need to be able to connect people—connect people with services, connect people with businesses, Janet. You can’t talk about supporting small and medium-sized businesses if you don’t enable their customers to actually get there. And that’s the really crucial thing about the failed experiment of privatisation. And what we saw this afternoon was—. We didn’t see the Conservative Members doing the hard work in committee, did we? That’s not what we saw—asking the difficult questions, not just reading them, but asking them, looking at all the paperwork, understanding what the consequences of the legislation are, and then putting forward well-reasoned arguments for amendments. We didn’t see any of that. We saw none of it—we saw none of it all the way through Stage 1 scrutiny. We just saw a pretty poor speech from their spokesman this afternoon, and, then, at least an entertaining speech from the other Member who addressed us. And what we’ve seen is, in fact, the Conservatives going back, isn’t it? Somebody once said that the Conservatives are a person with two legs who never learnt to walk forward. And what we saw this afternoon was an example of that, because they are still wedded to the privatisation agenda of the 1980s. And if there's anything we’ve learnt in the subsequent 30 years or so, it's that the privatisation agenda of the 1980s failed Wales.
And we heard the Conservatives speaking about rural communities. Well, they failed rural communities more than they failed urban communities, in many ways. A privatised system has failed rural communities. But it's not just the rural communities that are being failed, of course; it's some of the urban communities that I represent as well, because the privatised system has not enabled people in Brynithel to actually get to shop in Abertillery, it has not enabled people in Garnlydan to be able to go to Ebbw Vale, and it has not enabled anyone, anywhere, across the whole of Blaenau Gwent to be able to reach the Grange hospital. That's where the privatisation system has left us, with disconnected people living in disconnected communities. And who suffers? The people, the businesses and the services that we are here to support and to underpin. So, the system has failed. And what we see from the Conservatives this afternoon is an example of 'We want more failure', not 'We want to actually address the fundamentals of this.'
Hallelujah, we have a bus Bill—much delayed, but worth waiting for. This Bill is a big deal and, in time, it will make a big difference. Buses carry 75 per cent of all public transport journeys, but, since the Tory privatisation of the bus industry in the mid-1980s, the number of routes has shrunk, the pay of the staff has been suppressed and fares have risen. In fact, since privatisation, bus fares have risen faster than the cost of motoring. It's no wonder that passenger numbers have fallen. All of us here can give local examples of communities where no buses run after 6 p.m. or at all on Sundays, or of school buses sitting empty all day in communities where very few service buses run. And this is the system that the Tories want to preserve.
Bus services are currently based on the design principle of where can large multinational companies make the most profit, and this Bill changes that. The starting point of this bus services Bill is: what services do people need to get about without the expense of running a car? And the franchise to run buses in your areas will be based on a set of routes and a timetable that's been designed to link up with other buses and trains and with key destinations—a single, simple network that is easy to understand and easy to use. And we won't have the situation where a new hospital can be built without any bus routes—and we heard the example earlier today of Hefin David campaigning along with Alun Davies against that absurdity—where buses don't stop at train stations; we won't have a situation where rail and bus timetables aren't co-ordinated, where tickets can't be used with different operators. In short, we will see one network, one timetable, one ticket.
Now, of course, there's pushback from some of the big companies—they don't want change, and neither do the Tories. And why would the operators, the big ones, want change? Their profit is 100 per cent private, but over half the bus operating costs are paid for by the Government: free bus fares for pensioners, low fares for young people, local authority grants for buses in rural areas or routes where commercial companies have pulled out. This private system costs taxpayers a lot of money, and that's what Janet Finch-Saunders and Sam Rowlands are defending and want continuity of. Around £200 million a year it's costing us, and throw in on top of that the cost of school transport, which takes up about 20 per cent of the cost of school budgets. And none of this activity, none of this money, is co-ordinated. In fact, it's not allowed to be co-ordinated by law. I can remember, Llywydd, the absurdity during COVID when we were sitting down with local authorities trying to save school bus services when the system collapsed, and we weren't allowed to meet with the operators because it was against the law. The private legislation law said it would be a cartel for the operators to meet in one room with councils to save the bus service. That's how dysfunctional the system we have is, and it's a system that the Tories want to preserve.
Diolch, Llywydd. Can I thank all contributors today? It's been a fantastic debate. There have been some incredible contributions, and, in particular, I thought the Tories were very, very helpful in making the case for this Bill by talking down so vociferously the current arrangements that we have for bus services across Wales.
To those doubters and opponents of change, I'd say that this Bill puts passengers, puts people first, and in putting passengers first when designing a bus network, we'll make bus services more attractive to the public, which in turn, as shown in Manchester, drives up patronage and the farebox, and that's revenue that can be used then to further improve bus services. It's by putting people first that we'll address social isolation. It's by putting people first that we'll give SMEs greater sustainability, and it's by putting people first that we'll reverse the decline in patronage. Manchester offers proof of this; the TrawsCymru services offer proof of this. Further proof comes from Transport for Wales rail services: of all of the rail operators in Great Britain, Transport for Wales has seen the sharpest increase in patronage and fare revenue. And this demonstrates what happens when you're in control of public transport.
Now, learner travel has no silver bullet. It's an incredibly complicated challenge that we face, and we will be publishing a policy statement. Learner travel can be considered in contracts, but it's also worth noting that a huge proportion of learner travel is undertaken by taxis rather than buses. But this Bill will better integrate learner travel with scheduled passenger services.
In terms of congestion and bus priority measures, yes, the regional transport plans will have an incredibly important role in ensuring that we deal with congestion for bus services, and in terms of bus infrastructure, I'm pleased to say that TfW are producing bus stop quality standards. There are currently more than 20,000 bus stops across Wales, and we wish to see them improved in terms of quality and accessibility.
In terms of capacity within TfW, we've learned, of course, from Manchester, and what we've learned from Manchester is that you need the very best people to be able to design the network. It's one of the reasons why we appointed Vernon Everitt as chair of Transport for Wales, with extensive experience of franchising in greater Manchester.
And in terms of questions asked about whether we should pursue the Jersey model, i.e., whether we should pursue a net-cost model rather than a gross-cost model, I'd say that, first of all, we can't really compare Wales to Jersey. My understanding is that in Jersey there is one bus operator; in Wales, there's in excess of 130. In Jersey, there are some dozens of buses; in Wales, thousands. And we will be incentivising bus operators to increase patronage; we will be ensuring that contracts contain incentives. That is another lesson that we've learned from Manchester.
The proposal is to agree the motion under item 9. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections. We will therefore defer voting on this item, and also on the motion under item 10.
And that brings us to voting time, and unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, we will proceed directly to our first vote. That first vote this afternoon is on the legislative consent motion on the Absent Voting (Elections in Scotland and Wales) Bill, and I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Jayne Bryant. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 38, one abstention, and 11 against. And therefore the motion is agreed.
The next vote is on item 9, the general principles of the Bus Services (Wales) Bill. I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Ken Skates. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 37, one abstention, and 12 against. And therefore the motion is agreed.
The final vote is on item 10, the financial resolution in respect of the bus services Bill. I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Ken Skates. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 37, one abstention, 12 against. And therefore the motion is agreed.
The financial resolution in respect of The Bus Services (Wales) Bill
For instance, as I understand it, the Bill intends to clarify the duties of LPAs in preparing LDPs and SDPs, including requirements for public participation statements. This part of the Bill could be extended to support SME home builders by requiring local development plans to allocate sites of fewer than 50 units, set a 50-unit threshold for major developments, and introduce a national scheme of delegation. You could also enable faster adoption of LDPs by legislating for increasing the use of short-form reviews and introducing stronger statutory deadlines for adopting local plans once they expire.
Finally, Dirprwy Lywydd, I want to touch upon heritage and community value—areas that are close to my heart. Whilst there is considerable process for planning of new builds and changes to already existing buildings, there is no planning requirement to demolish a building unless they have protected status or they're in a designated conservation zone, which are allocated by the local authority. This unfortunately leaves many buildings that are of community importance exposed to the whims of developers who are not considering how a building may contribute significantly to the identity of an area and/or community.
Minister, you will know the amount of times we've debated this issue in the Chamber and have argued for Ministers to intervene to protect certain buildings that Cadw do not regard as sufficiently historic to require protection. These issues weren't necessarily addressed by the Historic Environment (Wales) Act 2023. Does the Government have an appetite to introduce into the Bill some form of planning requirement that will be needed to demolish a building that a community sees as important to their well-being, but doesn't have special protection status? Thank you.
But having said all of that, the fundamental tenet of what I said today is about making it more easily accessible. Actually, it will speed up the process, because people will have much better access to it in the first place. They will not need lawyers to help them interpret it. It is actually easier for the council staff themselves to interpret it, as it is for the statutory undertakers as well.
So, I understand where you are coming from. I am not going to accept the temptation to put any reform items into this. This is a technical consolidation Bill, but I reject the assumption that this will not in itself speed it up, because I think it will.
Can you tell us anything about the transitional arrangements? That is, how is this going to work to avoid confusion in terms of applications and appeals already in the system where—? Okay, the policy isn't changing, but the language is changing and, of course, the legal foundation is changing. So, how do you resolve those issues?
And related to that, and finally, stakeholders such as Planning Aid Wales have emphasised the need to make this new code accessible to communities. So, what steps will the Government take in order to ensure that the new guidance is clear, is in simple language and available bilingually to people on the ground?
Finally, this law isn't going to resolve every problem or every challenge in the planning system. It's not going to create more planning officers, it's not going to respond to all of the policy problems that we've discussed. But for me, it gives us a firmer foundation to do that reform work to strengthen the voice of communities, to safeguard the environment, to support sustainable growth and to ensure that the Welsh language is a central part of the planning process. We now in this Senedd will lay those foundations and then, of course, there will be an opportunity in the next Senedd for us to build on those foundations boldly for the benefit of the people of Wales.
In terms of planning professionals and so on, again, training somebody up to be a planning professional is an awful lot easier off the back of a consolidated and codified piece of legislation than it is off the back of something where you're going back into Bills at the beginning of the last century, to try and frantically examine them. Adam, I know you like to do this, as I do as well—if you look up the original Bill on the legislation.gov website, it's impossible to follow, it really is: 'If this is repealed, this is repealed except for—see asterisk.' I mean, it's just an absolute nightmare. So, actually, this will really be a fundamental change to that.
As far as I'm aware, the draft that was put out earlier, at the end of last term, is the same. I confess that I haven't reread it over the summer. I don't have a briefing here telling me that there are any substantive changes, so I'm going to go with there are no substantive changes. I think that must be right, or I would've been briefed on that for today. The drafter's notes are changing as we go, because they're still looking at that, and we will be putting those in front of the Senedd as well.
Thirdly, I'm concerned about the potential for increased powers for the Welsh Revenue Authority. Now, I’ve no doubt that the WRA does excellent work, but any proposals that give additional discretionary powers must, in my view, be accompanied by clear safeguards, proper appeal processes and protections for those impacted by those changes.
And finally, Deputy Presiding Officer, I want to touch on the administrative burden. For many small businesses in Wales, compliance costs are already high. Of course, we don't want to see a system that opens the door to continually tinkering with tax laws that places more pressures on small and medium-sized enterprises, landlords and community organisations. So, I return to the fundamental principle that taxation must be clear, fair and accountable. That means changes must be proportionate, necessary and subject to appropriate oversight by this Senedd. So, a closing question to the Cabinet Secretary is: what assurances can you provide that any mechanism being considered will not be used to increase tax here in Wales without that proper scrutiny from the Senedd? Diolch yn fawr iawn.
As to the administrative burden, I think it's tied up in the points the Member made earlier, where you have a stable system, where people get used to it and understand it. These days, many of those systems are mechanised and done automatically. The fewer changes that you introduce, the more stable and therefore the smaller the administrative burden is, and that is certainly a principle that we have tried to adopt in the Welsh taxes that are the responsibility of this Senedd.
I also welcome the Government's attempts in the context of the consultation to try and learn from international examples that are pertinent; I think that's very important indeed. I think that considering the Basque economic agreement between the Spanish Government and the Euskadi Government, which was renewed in 2023, is of value because one of the benefits of that is that it is over a period of five years and provides that stability that any Government, I'm sure, would desire—I'm sure that you as Cabinet Secretary would like that. But is this something that we could consider as part of this? Are these the kinds of conversations that you could have with the UK Government? Because, clearly, it's extremely challenging when we don't quite know what the situation will be from year to year. And I think, clearly, it's a very different situation in the Basque Country—I understand that. The powers that that Parliament has are different, but certainly there are examples, aren't there, where it is possible for us to look at different approaches.
So, I do hope that those few comments do demonstrate that we as a party are keen to engage with you on this. I think it's important that we listen to the consultation and try to encourage people to be creative and ambitious in the responses that they provide, to share international examples with us too. I think it's clear in terms of the fiscal framework for Wales that we truly do need to look at everything within the powers available to us, and this is an important step, I think, in that regard.
The committee believes that this situation is regrettable because of the close working relationship between UK Government and Welsh Government officials during the development of the Bill, as stated by the Cabinet Secretary. It is unclear to the committee what representations were made by the Welsh Government in relation to the Bill’s commencement powers during its development. So, I would be grateful if the Cabinet Secretary could provide clarity on this point during the debate.
This Bill grants powers to introduce secondary legislation that includes powers of inspection and enforcement, ‘enforcement’ being the key word in this. Too often, laws in this country are overruled because some enforcement agencies say, ‘We haven't got the resources’, so it is important that we make sure that those resources are in place. There are also maximum penalties that may be imposed for contravening the regulations, and I hope that they are huge penalties. Tackling this issue head on and putting in place measures to ensure that tougher sentences and punishments can be imposed as a deterrent is vitally important.
We have to put barriers now in the way of these awful smugglers, and we need to help protect our animals being imported. We need to stop treating pets and animals like items. They are our companions, our joy and our loved ones. As such, we all in this Chamber must do all that we can to ensure that every animal has a safe, happy and long life. I welcome this recommendation to give this LCM consent, as I believe that it's really an important Bill. Right now, we know that politicians are not too popular, of any colour, and that people often say, you know—
The committee considered the Welsh Government's response to its report yesterday afternoon. As regards these two recommendations, the Cabinet Secretary said that the creation of concurrent powers is necessary due to the unique intersection of reserved and devolved responsibilities, and that concurrent powers are already in place in the Representation of the People Act 1983, which this Bill amends. In addition, the Cabinet Secretary thinks it would be unnecessary and inappropriate to suggest a carve-out in this instance as the UK digital services and the online absent voting application systems are operated by Ministers of the Crown in service of UK-wide elections.
As regards commencement, the Secretary of State is obtaining powers to commence clause 1 of the Bill, which will change the postal vote renewal cycle in Wales. There's no requirement for the Welsh Ministers to provide their consent to the exercise of this power. Again, the same issue arises as in the Animal Welfare (Import of Dogs, Cats, and Ferrets) Bill. The committee asked the Cabinet Secretary to confirm whether a consenting role for the Welsh Ministers was sought. The Cabinet Secretary also told the committee that the responsibility for the initial drafting of the commencement power will be undertaken by the Welsh and Scottish Governments, and this draft will be agreed with and taken forward by the UK Government. The Cabinet Secretary added that the implementation timings for associated legislation will be agreed in advance, so she did not consider it necessary to introduce a formal consenting role.
Finally, the Senedd will wish to note that, to enable the online absent voting application system to apply to next year's Welsh elections, it is the committee's understanding that the relevant regulations must be laid in the Senedd no later than mid November.
And let's also think then about the wider precedent, because the Bill amends the Government of Wales Act 2006 in relation to elections. So, we're ceding ground there in a fairly central and fundamental area. And once you cede that principle—. The reservation, which the Minister referred to, is very narrow. It's about the regulation of the UK digital service. Well, okay, fine—we can understand why that has to be reserved to Westminster. As soon as you accept the principle that a Secretary of State can change some of the provisions in relation to Welsh elections, for local government or the Senedd, then you have ceded a fundamental principle. And be clear then: it would be much more difficult, then, to argue against a future Government that might have all kinds of nefarious purposes in changing wholesale the rules and all of the policies and regulations governing Welsh elections. And so, we will be voting against this LCM, because we think it sets a very worrying precedent, and we urge other Members to join us.
In terms of a Wales-only system, a Wales-only system would not resolve the main issue of two separate online application processes for Welsh voters, depending on which election they're applying for. So, the underlying risk of separate processes is confusion for voters. So, if a voter thinks that they've already applied for a postal vote, they might then realise that it doesn't apply for an upcoming election, but then it's too late, so potentially losing their chance to vote.
Deputy Llywydd, I remain firmly of the view that we should provide legislative consent for this Bill, and I therefore ask Senedd Members to support the legislative consent motion.
Thirdly, I turn to the capacity of Transport for Wales. The effective delivery of franchising depends on Transport for Wales having the right people and the right skills in place. The committee’s visit to Transport for Greater Manchester showed the scale of resources actually needed. Transport for Wales’s current capacity in bus franchising is untested, and the timelines, as we know, are challenging. To be fair, Transport for Wales is clearly already doing a lot of preparatory work and engaging with key stakeholders and so forth. But the success of the transition will depend on Transport for Wales, and the Welsh Government must be satisfied that Transport for Wales is putting in place mechanisms to build capacity and to do so quickly.
A connected issue was the risk of skilled transport staff leaving local authorities to join Transport for Wales, potentially weakening local transport functions, including learner travel, and I'll expand on that in a moment. Strong partnership working with local government is therefore also essential.
So, I will now turn to specific issues raised with the committee during our Stage 1 scrutiny. The omission of learner travel from the Bill is, in our view, a missed opportunity. An integrated public transport system should meet the needs of all users, including children and young people. We acknowledge the Cabinet Secretary’s desire for a deliverable Bill, but we do believe that learner travel should be more prominent in this Bill. I am disappointed that the Cabinet Secretary has not been able to accept our recommendations aimed at achieving this. However, I do welcome his commitment, in response to our recommendation, to publish a policy statement clarifying how learner travel will be supported through the delivery of this Bill.
Another significant gap in the Bill is congestion and infrastructure. Stakeholders were clear that bus services will not improve under any model if this is not addressed. While the Cabinet Secretary has said that it is also in the interests of the Welsh Government, of course, and all of us to tackle congestion, we believe that the Bill should go further. We also highlighted the need for a consistent national approach to bus stop infrastructure and information. Under the proposals, local authorities will retain responsibility in this area. We believe therefore that there should be a formal agreement with Transport for Wales to ensure consistency, at least, across the country.
The voice of the passenger must be central to the proposals as well. That is why we recommended that the Bill should include a statutory duty to produce a passenger charter, as I mentioned earlier. This would set clear service standards and ensure accountability. Passengers must know who is responsible when things go wrong, and we welcome the Cabinet Secretary’s plans for a national bus board and regional bus boards, but once again, these are not set out in the Bill.
For several contributors, accessibility was a key issue, with calls for a stronger emphasis on that within the Bill. They felt that accessibility is too important to be left undefined in the Bill. Without a clear definition, it would be difficult to measure progress. We therefore recommended that 'accessibility' is defined in this Bill.
Finally, I want to turn to the role of small and medium-sized enterprises and rural provision. Members will be well aware that SMEs are vital to the bus network, particularly in rural areas. We can't afford to lose small operators in our communities; it would have a devastating impact on local jobs and economies, as well as on the provision of learner travel. We were reassured somewhat by commitments on contract design and simplified processes, and I am pleased that the Cabinet Secretary has agreed to keep this under review.
Franchising must work for rural as well as urban Wales. We support the principle of cross-subsidy to sustain socially necessary services, but the Cabinet Secretary needs to clarify the interaction and relationship between national and local funding to ensure fairness and transparency.
Llywydd, in conclusion, the committee does support the general principles of the Bill, but we also believe that it could be strengthened in several areas. Done well, franchising does offer the opportunity to deliver a network that is reliable, inclusive, and shaped around the needs of communities. That’s why it's so important that we get this Bill right as it progresses through the amending stages in the Senedd. Thank you very much.
In relation to staffing costs, it came to light during scrutiny that the estimates will need to be updated to reflect the decision to move forward with four franchising zones, rather than the nine zones used to estimate the costs in the RIA. We are grateful to the Cabinet Secretary for committing to revisit staffing costs in the revised RIA after Stage 2. Nonetheless, we found this approach disappointing. The decision to proceed with four franchising zones also casts doubt upon the accuracy of the other costs presented in the RIA, so our fourth recommendation calls on the Cabinet Secretary to revisit and revise the cost estimates accordingly.
Fundamentally, we don't believe that the model being pursued is the right one for us here in Wales. Whilst it has some advantages, we've heard from unions who have warned that it'll impact service quality and operator sustainability. Alternative models retain incentives for efficiency and innovation while still delivering many of the Government's aims. For example, under the minimum subsidy model, operators have an opportunity to use their local knowledge and commercial expertise to propose changes to the network or offer special tickets to attract more customers, or to reduce costs through innovation and efficiency, reducing the cost to the public purse—a model that we know has been successfully adopted in Jersey, which had nearly a 40 per cent increase in patronage and close to a 20 per cent increase in customer satisfaction.
The Transport for Wales access and inclusion panel has been established as a representative voice in the delivery of rail, and I would like to see that panel and its remit be extended so it can represent the voice of passengers across all modes of public transport. The passenger charter seems to be what happens with the rail service as well, and again, I think it was Delyth Jewell that mentioned at committee that if we can extend it so that we don't have vulnerable people left behind if that last bus doesn't turn up, as happens with the rail service, it's about thinking about that and hearing the voice of passengers.
A lot of what I've mentioned is about delivery more than just the Bill, but I can't help it because it's such a big thing. We need to consider all points at an early stage. Operators, local authorities, corporate joint committees, Transport for Wales and passenger representatives all need to have clarity about their roles as well, and be heard. We need to be able to work together. It's a long-awaited and much-needed bus Bill. I'm really pleased to see it here and I'm extremely proud to support it.
Several concerns were outlined. One of the main concerns was regarding the affordability of the proposals in the Bill. How many times have we all been here and witnessed a new Bill coming through, with the financial regulations as well, only to find out down the line that it was unaffordable to achieve what the Bill was saying it wanted to achieve? The committee cautioned that, for the ambitions of the Bill to be achieved, it needs an ongoing programme of significant investment. I was even told by other user groups and other people who had helped in the model in Manchester that the ambitions of this Bill cannot—. In the time period that you've allowed for this Bill, the expectations cannot be met. [Interruption.] Go for it, Lee.
In eastern Cardiff, it really does take an hour to get to the city centre from the edge of Cardiff. That's because there's no train service as part of the metro system, and the congestion is horrendous. So, a question to the Cabinet Secretary is: what conversation have you had with the UK Government since we were allocated £400 million for improving the rail networks in Wales, to ensure that we're getting on with the south-east Wales metro, so that we can have these buses as an integrated part of the Burns plan? It really is very, very urgent.
I note that Manchester has seen a 14 per cent increase in take-up, but Manchester already had a well-established metro tram system, which complements this bus network, which makes it feasible for everybody to be able to navigate the predictable journeys for work, education, health, shopping and leisure throughout, presumably, the Manchester travel-to-work area. So, that's what we need to aspire to in our regional circumstances.
I know that the numbers of people without a car are one in five, but, obviously, in poorer communities, it's five in 10. Actually, they're better served by buses at the moment, because the bus companies know that that's where the people who are obliged to travel on a bus exist. The people who are really suffering are those who are in the areas where car ownership is high, and people like the elderly, those who can't drive, simply have no bus service. So, it's very difficult.
I want to know how we're going to make this an efficient and effective service. The bus priority measures are crucial to reliability, which is what will make people make that shift out of the car. So, what is in the Bill to oblige local authorities or the corporate joint committees, in areas where there is congestion that will hold up the bus, to come up with plans to ensure that the bus goes through first? I think this is an incredibly important Bill, and the climate change and infrastructure committee has got to do a lot of work on getting the detail right, and, hopefully, that includes Conservative Members.
But what I felt as well that we learnt from Manchester was the importance of letting the public—all the public—know that this is happening and that there is this change. And I think it is crucial that there is bold and consistent branding and publicity, which will get more people onto our bus network. I think there should be a national branding that’s easily recognisable, and clear messaging that everyone can understand in relation to the changes and what that means for their services. And I was very struck in Manchester when they said that I believe it was Andy Burnham went on the local radio once a week to report on how many buses were late, how the bus service had performed during that week. So, I don’t know if we’ve got anybody who would do that here in Wales—[Laughter.]—whether the First Minister might do it, but it was done to show the importance of the fact that they were having a new system, they were going to try and improve reliability, that you could absolutely trust a bus if you went to a bus stop. And so, I think we learnt a lot from Manchester, but that was one of things I brought back with me.
So, in conclusion, I feel very strongly that it is a very important Bill. I am proud to be here supporting it. I think it’s absolutely great that the Welsh Government is putting this forward, and I’m sorry that it’s not a united vote for it, because I believe it’s got the basis of being built upon and developed. Diolch.
And what I hope we'll be able to do, Cabinet Secretary, is to ensure that we have a creative approach to the way in which the franchise operation will operate, because, for example, one of the things that the Cabinet Secretary's predecessor, actually, Lee Waters, did was to introduce a Fflecsi system in Ebbw Vale. Now, the Fflecsi system worked quite well for some people, but not very well for most people. So, what we did was not simply to say, 'Well, we're going to abandon that in totality', what we did was to introduce a Fflecsi system that worked, particularly at the beginning and the end of the working day, and then return to a timetabled service for most of the day, which served the needs of the people. A creative approach—creative in terms of trying a pilot to learn, to see how it would work, and then adopting the lessons of that pilot in delivering a different system. The Cabinet Secretary has not heard from me on that system since he took office, because it works. And that is the important thing to actually recognise: it works. We experimented, we ran a pilot, we learned the lessons, and it works. And that's why we need to ensure that, when this Bill becomes law, we're able to move with speed then. I recognise the timetable that has been established and set out by the Cabinet Secretary, and I make no comment on that. But what I want to see is movement with speed and urgency to enable us to implement this policy as soon as possible.
And I'll just close my remarks by agreeing with some of the remarks made by Heledd Fychan and Delyth Jewell as well, because there are important lessons here to access school and college for people. There have been real, difficult issues for parents and for young people in Blaenau Gwent as we began the academic year this month, where we haven't had the bus services required to actually take people to their place of learning. We need to ensure that the bus services deliver connectivity for people throughout their lives, and I hope that what we'll be able to do, through this success—and I'm actually very confident that this Bill will be a success—is to be able to create a new generation of bus users, people who choose to use public transport and people who choose to use the buses, and who make that choice not because they don't have the option to use other services but because those services are so good that they will deliver the public transport that we require across the whole face of Wales. I'm grateful to you, Presiding Officer.
Now, of course, there's the issue of money, and I mentioned earlier that the Finance Committee has noted, and the regulatory impact assessment notes, that the benefits of this Bill are going to be five times greater than its costs over a 30-year time horizon. But, even without a significant increase on funding, by getting rid of unnecessary duplication, there will be far more efficiency in the system, and far less cost, actually, Janet Finch-Saunders, to SME operators from bidding into contracts, because a lot of them will be handled by TfW. If you'd taken the trouble to look into the detail of the plans here, you'd have seen that this has been built and designed very sensitively with the needs of SMEs in mind, so I'm afraid you were crying wolf there. We all agree on the importance of SMEs.
This is, Llywydd, one of the most consequential pieces of legislation this Senedd has considered since we gained law-making powers, and of this term—indeed, of the whole devolution period. It's already had teething troubles, and there'll be more to come, which is why scrutiny from this Senedd is essential, and I'm sure the Government will want to respond to the concern that we have around bus priority measures—there has to be some requirement in the regional transport plans to build a network of bus priority measures—and the concerns about school transport. But it's being implemented in stages for this very reason, in close partnership with councils, and councils are going to have a key role, with TfW, based on international good practice, as a guiding mind, where they will sit down and design together these network bundles and routes.
And of course, if we are successful in growing bus use, which all the expectations are, that will increase the case for further public money and expanding the bus network from the base network into the aspirational network that TfW are designing. And at a time when people are asking if politics is relevant to their lives, this Bill has the potential to make a tangible difference. It will take time and effort to implement across Wales. It's not a quick fix. But, as impatient as I am, I'm glad the roll-out is not being rushed. Unravelling a long-established and highly fragmented system is going to be tricky, and a step-by-step implementation, staged in different parts of Wales, gives us the best chance of getting this right. And I think we will look back at this, Llywydd, this Bill, as one of the most significant things that we've been part of.
And in terms of accessibility, yes, I'm proud to support the work of the access and inclusion panel at Transport for Wales to be championing the travel for all agenda. There will be a passenger charter; there'll be minimum standards for accessibility in contracts; TfW intend to ensure that cash can always be used on services; and there will be driver training. And of course, as I've already mentioned, there will be quality standards introduced for bus stops.
I'm conscious of time, Llywydd, but can I just, again, thank colleagues for their contributions? And I'm looking forward to engaging with all Members as this goes forward. Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd, and I thank you for your patience.