Plenary

The Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs will be answering the next questions, under item 2, and the first question is from Cefin Campbell.

We recognise the importance of energy distribution infrastructure to support new large-scale renewable energy developments to achieve our net-zero commitments and give people access to clean heat and transport. The environmental and ecological impacts of a proposal requiring planning permission are material considerations in the decision-making process.

Cabinet Secretary, you will be aware of concerns about the potential impact of energy infrastructure projects in mid Wales, and I would like to ask how we assess the cumulative environmental impact in particular. Individual projects are subject, of course, to environmental impact assessments, but there's a lack of a joined-up approach when it comes to assessing the combined pressures that multiple developments may have on habitats, biodiversity, landscapes and communities. There's a risk of creating environmental blind spots, perhaps risking cumulative impacts on ecosystems, species displacement and the deterioration of natural landscape areas. We also risk overlooking local environmental knowledge and the concerns of communities and the way it affects them. Without a strategic and holistic evaluation, it is difficult to understand the true scale of the environmental impact that may be caused. Given these concerns, what assessment is Welsh Government undertaking of the cumulative environmental and ecological impacts of pylon development across Wales, and how can we ensure that future projects consider the combined effects of multiple energy developments within a given area?

Diolch, Cefin. You'll understand that I can't comment on individual projects, as it's possible that Welsh Ministers might have a role in their determination. But we do know, and it's worth reminding ourselves as the Senedd Chamber, that we anticipate that Wales's electricity demand will probably double, and may indeed triple, by 2050, because of our transition towards net zero and decarbonisation. So, updating the grid is essential if we're going to have an energy system fit for purpose in the long term, and also that it reaches all parts of Wales, both supply and demand. But you will know that we've also convened the independent advisory group on future electricity grid for Wales, looking at work on possible approaches to deliver that infrastructure, including considering the environmental impacts of electricity lines in Wales.

You touch on the policy framework. First of all, 'Future Wales: the National Plan 2040' sets out the national-scale policies for renewable energy. Policy 17 of 'Future Wales' emphasises the importance of proposals identifying net benefits the scheme may bring in terms of—and this is particularly pertinent in terms of the well-being of future generations Act—not just the economic but the social, environmental and cultural aspects for local communities.

You rightly ask how we look at this going forward, because Wales does indeed play its part in terms of electricity generation here. The Infrastructure (Wales) Act 2024 provides an up-to-date decision-making process for significant infrastructure projects in Wales, which is informed by engagement with the public and other stakeholders, and that will come into force by the end of this year, of course. Cumulative impact of development, including development consented under the nationally significant infrastructure project process, is a material consideration in the determination of an application under that regime.

Su'mae. In Wales, we have the most beautiful countryside. I believe this should be cherished and protected. The original question refers to pylon development. I've spoken with organisations on both sides, and I've also read the survey launched on pylons by Countryside Alliance. Ninety-three per cent of respondents were strongly opposed to pylon construction in their area, 81 per cent of businesses saw no benefit from the construction of more pylons, and 96 per cent of people raised concerns about environmental damage from pylon construction.

These pylons are a risk to our natural environment. They are a risk to our wetlands. Certain birds, such as swans and geese, have poor vision when they are flying—this is from the RSPB—as well as birds of prey, which can be electrocuted by perching on pylon poles. There are numerous reasons why we should really be having a mandate that says 'no pylon construction unless absolutely necessary'—no other way possible. There's no reason why they can't go underground. It takes seven years to recoup the cost, and then you've got your underground works in, and everybody is happy.

With this in mind, will you, Cabinet Secretary, please look at bringing forward some kind of mandate for electricity cables to be placed under the ground, and again for pylons to be used as a last resort? Let's not ruin our countryside—

I've been very generous. You did come to your question, and then you decided to start all over again. So, the Minister to respond.

Thank you very much.

You're welcome.

Shwmae to you as well, Janet.

Thank you for the question. First of all, to refer to the previous answer I gave, we've actually put in place the independent advisory group on future electricity grid for Wales. They're looking at possible approaches to delivering the electricity network. But I come back to the point that this isn't simply a question of energy generation, it's energy supply as well, to all those parts of Wales that need it. In some ways, we're going to need to get that electricity to and from all of these areas, including those areas that need economic development that relies on an electricity grid.

I've said—and you know as well; you're a member of the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee—our electricity demand is going to double and possibly triple by 2050. So, I think we all have to seriously wrestle with these issues. And what we certainly don't need, Llywydd, is any approach where the consensus that we've seemed to establish over the last 20 years, since, indeed, the 1990 appearance of a certain Margaret Thatcher at a UN convention to say we need to tackle climate change, we need to be committed to actually dealing with decarbonisation—. To see one party now walking away from that is a real disappointment, I have to say.

Thank you, Heledd. I published the formal response to the report on 17 April 2025. We have been working with stakeholders on implementation and we are assessing delivery timelines in line with our response. I will provide a written statement in the spring, outlining progress made and realistic timelines for delivery.

Thank you very much for that response.

I really appreciate that. I think communities that I represent will really welcome seeing that set out in terms of the timetable, because, obviously, the specific recommendations that concern them are around community flood groups and exploring the possibility of a national flood forum. We discussed some of this last week, during your statement, and I think we both agreed that local activists are key to these developments. But additional funding is required to ensure this work is resourced. We know that Natural Resources Wales have very few staff members working on this. So, as we face another winter, knowing that some communities are currently more vulnerable than others, will you commit to reviewing the risk factor in these communities to ensure resources are targeted and prioritised to support them to organise local flood resilience groups?

I think that issue of targeting and prioritising is absolutely the line, because we've always made clear we'll never have sufficient funding, nor should we try to defend every inch of either every coastline or every valley community—we simply wouldn't be able to do it. Sometimes, using natural processes is the way to do it, including the upstream interventions as well. But in terms of community engagement and the work of the National Flood Forum, we very much value the work that they're currently doing in Wales. We've managed to find—including in communities that you and I have visited together—funding to help support their work within those communities where there is a real crying need.

Now, going forward, I am pleased to confirm that we're working with the National Flood Forum to establish how their services can be used on a wider Wales basis. But as opposed to necessarily leaping into saying, 'Let's have a Wales national flood forum', we're trying to explore what is the best way and the most efficient and effective way to actually do that going forward. So, we're working with them on that. The other thing, of course, is to flag up the NRW-run volunteer network support events across Wales that are happening as well, including as we run into the autumn and winter period, because that can advise community groups, then, on completion of testing of things such as community networks, community flood plans, enabling communities themselves to be more proactive and resilient. So, I would definitely draw—and I would ask all Members of the Senedd to draw—communities' attention to the National Flood Forum local resilience forum, which is on NRW's website, which has some really good information about how to prepare now and how to actually recover from flooding as well.

Shwmae. Cabinet Secretary, the flood and coastal erosion committee has endorsed the creation of regional and local catchment partnerships by the end of this year to support a systematic and integrated catchment and coastal management approach. We have corresponded in the past about flooding issues at Caer Castell House in Brackla. Despite multiple tripartite meetings, the issues with the culvert have not been resolved and the properties were flooded once again. I have failed to get any sensible resolution from Network Rail or the local authorities. Cabinet Secretary, do you believe local catchment partnerships will be able to resolve issues such as those faced by the residents of Brackla and ensure that buck passing does not leave residents at the mercy of unchecked floodwaters?

Yes, indeed, Altaf, thank you for that, and my sympathy goes out to those and all other members of communities across Wales who are now being affected more frequently, actually, with flooding. And it can be river flooding, flash flooding, it can actually be surface water flooding or a combination of all of these, or indeed coastal ingress as well. My sympathy goes out to them—I've met with many and spoken with them, and talked about the way forward as well.

The resolution for this lies in Welsh Government putting its money where its mouth is. And we do that—we now have record funding going in, not just in the major investments like we've seen in Stephenson Street in Newport, but actually working with local authorities, putting the money into them, so that they can, on a street by street level, and a property by property level, work with those residents as well. I'm pleased we've been able to assist in that case, but the solution then needs to lie with that local resilience forum, the local authority and others, working with the local community. That's where the secret lies. But for our role as Welsh Government, and this Senedd, we need to will the means that we keep on putting the record investment into the national approach to flood defence.

Deputy First Minister, we know many communities in Wales have been impacted in recent years by flooding incidents, including in Mold in my own constituency. So, as we head into the winter months, and the anticipation of more extreme weather, do you agree with me about the importance of having as many people as possible signed up to Natural Resources Wales's flood warning system? And in order to tackle further flooding, and flooding in the future, a number of flood defence schemes have been built right across Wales, including across the north Wales coast. Deputy First Minister, you were in Rhyl just last week to mark the investment there following on from the coastal defence project to protect thousands of Prestatyn homes. Therefore, can I ask: what assessment has the Welsh Government made of the importance of maintaining the capital budget for flood defences? Diolch.

Thank you very much, Hannah. I was delighted to be up in north Wales last week, I think it was, opening what I think was the final instalment of the biggest single investment in the whole of Wales. It's over £100 million in total, and it is hundreds upon hundreds of properties, and businesses as well, allowing the families to be safe in their homes and to carry on with their lives and those businesses to thrive and invest and grow.

But that's not all that we do, as you say. We've also invested over £60 million in a new modern flood alert system, and this is the time of the year where we actually promote 'be flood alert'. We need people to sign up. I'm signed up. I need everybody to sign up, because we know that it's not only happening in those areas where we've seen floods happening every few years; it's now happening in places that are unexpected through flash flooding or street flooding. Now, on that basis, please, please sign up—and I'd ask all Members to push this to their constituents—and be flood alert. You can then get the flood warnings, the heightened flood warnings and the flood alerts as well. And there is also information on the NRW site about how to respond to those flood warnings and alerts. So, Hannah, thank you so much for raising this. It's vital we get more people signed up to it.

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Conservative spokesperson, Samuel Kurtz.

Diolch, Llywydd. Deputy First Minister, following the well-founded concerns in the agricultural industry over its future, there are now reports that the UK Government may raise the inheritance tax thresholds for farmers, but, potentially, at the cost of a cut to the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs budget, possibly impacting agricultural funding here in Wales. However, Welsh farmers remain deeply anxious about the family farm tax. This Chamber has heard distressing stories, including one farmer who stopped cancer treatment, hoping they'd die before the changes come into effect, and cases such as the Cornock family in Pembrokeshire, where Janet Cornock said:

'We simply do not have the cashflow to pay this substantial and unexpected tax bill when all of the value of our business is tied up in the farm and its assets.'

So, while a possible u-turn from UK Labour may bring relief, we still don't know the Welsh Government's stance on changes to agricultural property relief and business property relief. So, Deputy First Minister, what is your position on the family farm tax, and will you publish all correspondence with the UK Government, so that Welsh farmers can see what representations have been made on their behalf?

Thank you, Sam. I'm aware of the speculation in the media, which seems to be rife at the moment, on possible changes to proposals, but it is speculation. I have no greater insight into the Treasury's plans than any other Member or citizen here does. The Treasury are notoriously tight-lipped on what they actually put out there. They'll do that when they get to about five or six weeks to the actual statement they'll bring forward on the floor of the House of Commons.

But meanwhile, we do continue to support farmers through those challenges that you rightly said. I've met with many of the farmers who've expressed the range of pressures that are currently facing them. We are providing, through Farming Connect, facilitated family succession meetings, succession reviews to understand IHT implications as they're currently laid out, and also subsidised business and legal advice to develop succession plans. We are also cognisant of the advice that is being provided through the farming unions as well.

So, rather than comment on speculation, let me just say—for complete clarity, because I have said it before, Sam, as well—we've had several items of correspondence where we've been in touch with UK Government on this issue, and also have raised it repeatedly in inter-ministerial group discussions as well, and in bilaterals. In our latest letter, which went off in September, if I recall correctly, it stressed the importance of the work that we're doing with the sustainable farming scheme—focused on small, medium-scale family farms within Wales and the future viability of those—and that nothing should disrupt that. It also made clear that we'd want them to engage with some of the considered advice and information that was being put forward by not just the farming unions, but others more recently as well that suggests, with nuancing, there could be adjustments made that could work. But it is a Treasury decision, it is a reserved decision. But we've made very clear, as I'm happy to do again, exactly what our position is here in Welsh Government.

You say that, but this Welsh Government was quite happy to give opinions on reserved matters under a Conservative UK Government. Yet, we've not heard again today, when given the opportunity, what this Welsh Labour Government believes around the family farms tax. That would have been really welcome. Farmers watching this now will be left in the dark as to whether this Welsh Government has supported them in discussions with UK Treasury.

Linked to the wider challenges facing rural communities, there is still another cloud of bovine TB cast over Welsh agriculture. Yet, I will give credit, there is some hope through the Pembrokeshire project, something that I helped launch, which participating farmers have strongly supported. We also have the technical advisory group examining wider scientific evidence. Under new rules, inconclusive reactor cattle can only move under licence to slaughter or to approved finishing units, something that has been welcomed by the industry. But despite this, the number of cattle slaughtered in Wales remains painfully high, leaving many farmers trapped in ongoing restrictions.

With the draft budget now before the Senedd, what discussions are you having with the Cabinet Secretary for finance to guarantee, firstly, the long-term funding for the Pembrokeshire project and its sister project in north Wales, as well as ensuring adequate compensation for farmers required to cull their livestock due to bovine TB?

Sam, thank you very much. Firstly, just to say, there's no lack of clarity from me on our approach to IHT, APR and other tax implications for farms. We have actually made clear that things such as the CenTax assessment and the Central Association of Agricultural Valuers's assessment in particular have raised possible solutions to some of the concerns being raised and we have suggested that the Treasury should take them into account in their assessment of the impact, and that this should be addressed in a collaborative way with the farming unions. So, there's no lack of clarity on that.

In terms of TB, thank you for your support for the Pembrokeshire project. There was some scepticism around this initially, whether this could work, but actually those farmers, as you know in your area, who are involved in it are quite evangelical about it, and the way that it gives autonomy to the farmer, with their trusted on-farm vet, to make decisions affecting their business and also the health and well-being of their herd as well. That's why we have indeed now rolled out a version of it to north Wales, on demand, because people now are persuaded that this is the way forward.

What I've put forward in the budget that was laid by the Cabinet Secretary yesterday is again an attempt to have continuity across a range of issues, including animal health and welfare, as well as farm stability going forward. What I can't do is actually prophesise what the next Government will actually do. We need to get beyond the budget of the Chancellor in the UK, we need to determine our own budget here, and we'll be looking for support, please, right across the Chamber for that budget, not just for farming but for the protection of public services as well. But, look, my commitment is there, because we've rolled the scheme out further in Wales at cost, so we have faith in this scheme, in that this is one of the ways in which we can deliver improvements within TB.

Thank you for that, Deputy First Minister. But speaking to those farmers taking part in the Pembrokeshire project, while they are evangelical, as you say, as to the role that they can play with their vets, they still believe that there is one arm tied behind their back in tackling this, due to the reservoir of the disease within wildlife.

But continuing on the theme of evidence-based policy making, it's vital that we truly follow the science, and that must include the nitrate vulnerable zones regulations, because today, 15 October, marks the start of the closed period for spreading on grassland under those rules despite the dry weather, perfectly illustrating the absurdity of a farming-by-calendar approach. Dr Susannah Bolton's review was a welcome step forward, but it largely confirmed what farmers have said from the beginning—that the current system simply doesn't work in practice. We all know this, we've said it since the very beginning, so with fewer than seven months until the next Senedd election, will you act now to enable those recommendations to become true, or will Welsh farmers have to wait until the next Welsh Government to deliver the practical reforms needed to support agriculture?

Thank you, Sam, for that question. It's a really important question, and in case anybody is cutting and clipping these pieces for social media, and for complete clarity, Llywydd, we are setting up the task and finish group to take forward those recommendations. Dr Susannah Bolton produced her work in March. We've been landing the SFS and other issues since then, but we've been working over the summer, actually, doing some of the preparatory work to take forward these recommendations. We've made clear, as the Welsh Government, in the statement that I published earlier this year, that we would accept and take forward all the recommendations, and we would take forward those recommendations at pace, and we would do it with all stakeholders involved.

So, the task and finish group is under way and preparatory work has already been done. I'm hoping to bring forward some additional news once we have the group established, and we've got the terms of reference as well, to say something further to the Senedd at that point. But can I just be clear in terms of the closed period, because Susannah Bolton does rightly say there is some scope here to look at alternative ways forward? But she also says that, as we currently stand, you should definitely not take away what's currently in place until you have evidence-based approaches for alternative ways forward, and she is right in saying that. So, this does cause difficulty currently for some farmers. We're keen to work through that in the autumn and winter ahead, but, actually, she also makes clear that if we go to alternative solutions, then they may be more complex, they may be more challenging to explain. But I'm willing to take that on, because I think the potential for seeing other ways forward, if we can evidence them, is well worth taking forward. So, we're taking it forward, Sam.

The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Llyr Gruffydd.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. There are concerns, aren't there, Cabinet Secretary, about reduced livestock numbers. They've been on a downward trajectory for many years, and, of course, the impact assessment of the SFS last week suggested that that's likely to continue. Now, there are clear knock-on effects from that to the wider food economy, especially abattoirs and processors, many of whom are already struggling in terms of throughput and viability. Hybu Cig Cymru has shown how we've lost, I think, over half of our abattoirs in the last 25 years. We have, I think, just five that are officially classified as small left here in Wales. Now, many have warned, of course, that the sector is potentially facing collapse if things don't change, and that would mean not just the economic impact, but an impact on the whole effort of creating resilient local food systems, which is something we all want to grow and develop, but also an increase in food miles, which brings with it environmental and animal welfare consequences as well. So, can I ask what assessment the Government has made of the state of the Welsh abattoir sector and the potential impact of further closures, and, indeed, what strategy you have in place to address the impact of falling livestock numbers on the wider food economy?

Thank you, Llyr. Look, first of all, it's worth acknowledging that this is a real issue, but it's not a recent issue either. This has been happening for many, many years, and there are a number of factors around why it's been happening, and it's been happening not just in Wales, but in western Europe and wider afield. But I wouldn't want to talk up the risk of this. I think what is needed is a piece of work that looks at what are the multiple ways in which we address this, so that we can deliver, exactly as you say, more food not only for export. I've just come back from Anuga in Cologne, the biggest trade expo. The success of our Welsh lamb and red meat sector—beef and lamb—is amazing as export. We need more on plates here as well, to help maintain those through-lines within our processing. Now, we can do that through procurement, without a doubt, and we've already evolved ways in which we can do better with procurement in our schools, hospitals, prisons, et cetera, within the public estate. There's also more we can do based on the community food strategy, as well, which is also based on those local food networks. So, I think there is a piece of work in here. The additional thing, Llyr, I would say very strongly, is that it's partly to do with livestock numbers, and it's also, for farmers, to do with productivity and efficiency—putting less in and getting more out of the value of that animal when it gets to market. For our farmers, what I consistently hear from them is, 'How do you help us do that?'. Now, I think SFS has a role to play, but there are other ways in which we can provide that support—so, more efficiency and more productivity in the sector as well.

Well, thank you for that response. I mean, you rightly acknowledge that this isn't a new problem, and then you say that there's a job of work that's needed. Well, maybe that work should be under way already, given that we know what the trajectory is.

But I'll move on to milk, if I may, because you know that milk producers have been notified of significant milk price cuts—some of up to 18 per cent—coming in November. And that comes, of course, on top of a number of already existing challenges, such as the hot, dry summer we've had, which has reduced forage availability, and we know about TB, we know about the issues around the NVZ regulations, et cetera. Now, whilst price drops have been driven, largely, of course, by global market forces, this now, I think, is going to be the first real test of the new Fair Dealing Obligations (Milk) Regulations 2024 that came into force this year to improve price transparency and fairness in dairy contracts. The Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs has appointed, of course, an adjudicator to oversee the functioning of these regulations and to investigate any complaints, and we know from experience, don't we, that worse behaviour happens in a supply chain when the market goes downwards, very often. So, will you as a Government be monitoring the dairy market and proactively, maybe, raising concerns about bad or discriminatory behaviour by processors in relation to Welsh dairy farmers? And, given that exports are crucial to helping to balance the UK market, how will your Government be working to try and ramp up the promotion of Welsh dairy exports?

Absolutely. I mentioned that I've just come back from Anuga on that last point. Our dairy products in the export market are a rip-roaring success. It would be wrong of me to name them, but it was an eye-opening moment when I sat down with a north Wales dairy producer, who was sitting down with the largest US import one, who they already have a relationship with, and were talking about expanding the exports. And they weren't alone—they were far from alone. And the other interesting thing, Llywydd, is the envy from other parts of the UK about the support that we provide, through the Welsh Government and our food division, to actually help them be at those places, making the connections and working with them. We are the envy of other nations.

But you raise a very important thing in terms of milk price. Milk price fluctuates over time. At the moment, it's going down, and, in which case, this is absolutely a test now of some of the food suppliers out there who, over the years, have done better to stand with our farmers and actually deliver those longer term contracts with price stability. But not everybody is in those. So, this is an opportunity here, I think, to see how the adjudicator steps up here to make sure that there aren't negativities in the market that impact on primary producers. And it is something that I'll be raising in discussion with the UK Minister, who I think I have a meeting with either this week or next week—it could be even this week. But I'll be raising this with her as well, because we want to see this on a UK level, with those big supply chains, and, actually, let's get the fair play for our farmers, and the supply chain needs to stand by our farmers through these times when prices dip.

Thank you. Another important part of our food and drink sector, of course, is our fisheries sector, and recent research by Oceana UK has raised serious concerns about the state of fish stocks around the UK, including in Welsh waters, of course. And not only is that an environmental issue, it's also about the sustainability of our domestic fleet and, of course, the future of the Welsh seafood sector. The Irish sea is now the worst affected area in the UK; only a third of stocks are in a healthy condition, down from over 40 per cent just two years ago. And in the Celtic sea, the picture is similarly bleak. Now, these figures point to a systemic failure in fisheries management and a growing threat to the viability of our Welsh fishing fleet and the communities that depend upon the sector. So, will the Government commit to action to safeguard the future of the Welsh fish supper, and what steps are you taking to protect Welsh fish stocks whilst ensuring, of course, the long-term sustainability of our Welsh fishing fleet?

Thank you. I'm so pleased we have a question on fisheries in this session, because we don't have them often enough. We have a distinctive Welsh fisheries fleet, and much of it is a sustainable fishery. Part of the reason for that is because we base our approach in Wales on fisheries management plans, which are embedded within sustainability. We want to make sure that we have sustainable yields being taken, so that the stocks can replenish themselves in different types of fisheries as well. So, we'll keep on taking that approach, going forward.

The fisheries management plans are on track. The ones that we said we would deliver, we've delivered. And we will keep on, also, Llyr, working with—. It's different here in Wales than it is in DEFRA. In DEFRA, they have large teams of people, and they can rely on Seafish and on others. What we do is we work directly with our universities, including Bangor University and others, with their expertise, to make sure we are delivering sustainable fisheries. This also rams home why we cannot be in a situation where we overfish. We have to get that balance right that protects the livelihoods of fishers, but also the sustainability of our marine environment and those fish stocks.

Thank you, again, Llyr. The establishment of a technical task and finish group demonstrates the Welsh Government’s commitment to working collaboratively with all relevant stakeholders to improve the regulations for both farmers and environmental outcomes. My officials will be issuing an invitation for expressions of interest for membership in the coming days.

Diolch. We know that the closed period under the water pollution regulations, of course, starts today. Last year, the wet weather running up to that moment caused all sorts of problems, didn't it, and, ironically, straight afterwards, it was dry for a long period, which goes to show that farming by calendar is the wrong approach. And this year, the seriously hot and dry spring and summer that we've had have had implications for silage, and lots of farmers are now holding out for a late cut of silage and can't empty their slurry stores as a consequences, which again shows that farmers don't farm by calendar; they farm according to the seasons. Plaid Cymru voted against the NVZ regulations a few years ago because of these kinds of examples. The Bolton review has, as well, as we've heard already this afternoon, suggested a move away from the farming-by-calendar approach, and interestingly, in reference to the task and finish group, you said that you'd been asking them to move at pace to look at this. So, is it your hope, therefore, that this will actually be the last year where we have a farming-by-calendar approach, and do you expect that this year's closed period relating to dates on a calendar will be gone next year?

Diolch, Llyr. Susannah Bolton made very clear that there were some issues in this that were more complex and will need more evidence than others, and this was one of them. I think we're in danger here, if we rush to this and we suddenly withdraw the closed-period approach, because she actually says that that closed period needs to stay in place until there are evidenced, workable alternative solutions. But she points to the fact that there could be evidenced, workable solutions. It'll need all stakeholders to step up with the will to actually evidence those, to see if they can work.

You asked me for timescales on this. I think this is exactly what we should be saying to the task and finish group: 'Give us the nitty-gritty, the milestones, the timescale for setting it out.' I think we can do some things in the very short term. Other things will be medium and longer term. We should leave it to them to actually work through this, and do it at pace. That's the thing.

The closed period, I realise, will put stresses on the farmers. I've met with both the farming unions this week, and it's been raised with me in both of those meetings, and by other farming representatives as well. We are constantly in discussion with the arm's-length body and NRW about how they can give advice on farms, and guidance, and work collaboratively. But, where there are clear breaches, they are the regulatory agency here, and they've a job to do as well. We took that approach last year. We'll try to continue doing it this year. There are different challenges this year, as you said, than last year. We'll keep talking to the farming community about how we can work ahead through the year ahead.

The other thing I would say is that Susannah Bolton makes very clear, by the way, a number of other things, rather than picking particular items from it. She says this cannot be an excuse for not having adequate storage on farms et cetera. So, there are a number of things within this that need to be worked through to make sure—and I know you believe this, Llyr, as well—that we get it right for the farming community, but that we get it right as well for improving the health of our rivers at the same time.

I'd like to, firstly, thank the Cabinet Secretary for his written statement last week on the review of the control of agricultural pollution regulations, and for agreeing to the recommendations in that review. But I'd also like more clarity on the work of the task and finish group, and farmers in my constituency would like to know whether they, along with other relevant stakeholders, will be consulted on the timeline for their implementation, and which recommendations will be prioritised. Many farmers in Wales are still frustrated at the burden of regulation, with the NFU Cymru president Aled Jones saying, quote, it is

'clear that Welsh Government’s four-yearly review…was a missed opportunity to deliver the changes that are urgently needed…and failed to reflect the sheer desperation of farmers in Wales grappling with the impracticality and complexity of the rules.'

Unquote. This inflexible, farming-by-calendar approach—as Llyr has already mentioned—to regulation is one of the most pressing areas that needs urgent change, and using technology to respond to material conditions such as rainfall and soil quality makes far more sense than regulating based on a calendar approach. So, will the collaborative approach and the task and finish group mean that areas of the regulation that are most challenging to farmers, such as the calendar-farming approach, will be prioritised over changing less problematic parts of that regulation?

Thank you for that question, and for the welcome that you gave to the establishment of the task and finish group. I issued that statement on 8 October and we made clear there the next steps for taking forward the 23 recommendations, and we said we will take forward all of them—so, we're not picking and choosing; we've said all of them we will take forward.

The review highlighted, in answer to your question, the importance of a collaborative approach, and I strongly agree, working with all—all—stakeholders, and that includes farmers, but also those who may be involved in river health organisations, water quality organisations and so on as well. Because the regulations have got to work for farmers as well as delivering the environmental outcomes that we all want to see, including farmers want to see as well. So, one of the things I can say to you is that we're going to be using the experience that we gained from the engagement approach we took with the sustainable farming scheme, which was not only that key stakeholders were around the table with the task and finish group, but also the wider engagement as well.

You asked about prioritising certain ones. That is exactly what is in Susannah Bolton's report—which ones should be short-, medium- and long-term—with some guidance on that as to which ones might appear, which ones are, more complex. This is a more complex one, I have to tell you. She identified it. So, it will need a bit of work, but, in doing so, we’ve already started on doing some of the analysis over the summer, so it will help the speed and the pace of that. So, rather than pick and choose items that I want to or you want to or Jenny wants to or Lesley wants to accelerate, let's let the task and finish group get on with their work and set their priorities.

Thanks, Jenny. Shwmae to you on this important day today.

The Welsh Government continues to address agricultural pollution through a combination of actions. These include collaboration, supporting innovation, regulation backed by inspection and enforcement, encouraging best practice through knowledge transfer and direct financial support for farmers and land managers to farm more sustainably.

This is a subject that's very important to the citizens of Wales. Indeed, many will have read the news last week of a class action by at least 4,000 people being taken, who want to prosecute polluters of the River Wye, Usk and the Lugg. Whilst it will be some time before we know the outcome of that, in the meantime, we know that Natural Resources Wales has been awarded nearly £2 million to double down on tackling pollution and polluters. So, what use has Natural Resources Wales made of this money to take some exemplary action against polluters so everyone gets the message that there are consequences of non-compliance?

Thank you, Jenny, and I think you rightly say this is a matter, building on the previous question, actually, that is for every citizen in Wales. Everybody is concerned about this. You'll understand that it's not appropriate for me to comment in any way on the action being taken through the courts, but I note the class action that is being taken forward.

You rightly flagged the money that's been put additionally to NRW for the enforcement of the regulations, and in fact the total committed since the regulations were introduced is well over £4 million, in addition to the near £2 million over the last year. The enforcement approach is actually driving change now within the sector. Compliance levels are improving. The improvement levels are up by 12 per cent between June 2024 and March 2025. We've still got a lot further to go, Jenny, I've got to say as well, okay, but that is a significant improvement, and I think there is a correlation between the additional resource being put in—. Part of it is the collaboration and part of it is the enforcement as well. So, NRW's approach to enforcing the regulations is helping to drive this forward.

And just to say, on top of that, an additional 553 farmers have been invited to submit a full application under the latest nutrient management scheme window, which includes things like storage, as we mentioned earlier on, with a total grant value of just short of £20 million. So, we're putting the money in there as well to help farmers do the right thing.

Diolch, Carolyn. We’re currently reviewing information following the gamebird release consultation, as well as considering the impact of the continuously changing situation with regard to avian flu. It is important that we carefully consider how we develop a robust licensing approach that's right for Wales.

Thank you for your answer, Deputy First Minister. I am particularly concerned about large-scale shoots that have a significant impact on our local wildlife, impacting on biodiversity and ecosystems, but also spreading the viruses—for example, the mass mortality of pheasants in the Berwyn in this summer as a result of bird flu. Given that pet owners are required to keep their birds under cover during outbreaks, it seems totally illogical that cage-bred gamebirds can still be released in their masses. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the impact of gamebird releases on the spread of avian influenza, and what measures are being considered to mitigate those risks?

Thanks, Carolyn. This is a very important issue, not least as we see avian influenza and as we go into the season of migratory patterns with birds as well. We're continuously monitoring avian influenza now in poultry and in wild birds. We have regular reporting from several sources. We have data intelligence gathering, we have lab testing as well for birds that we suspect are infected or found dead, and we have collaborative working across all relevant Government departments and the wider networks that we have out there within birds and poultry and so on, so we can take early interventions. We've shown this, actually, on the ground as and when necessary.

We're also, by the way, introducing additional mandatory biosecurity measures in the gamebird management sector, which will include a mandatory biosecurity checklist to be completed by all gamebird keepers.

So, we acknowledge that released gamebirds, if infected, have potential to spread avian influenza to other wild bird species, including those which are of conservation concern. But, so far, we have no evidence of mass mortalities of any other species of conservation concern in the areas that we've seen infection.

I just wanted to mention as well, following the avian influenza outbreak in gamebirds in north Wales, Welsh Government took, rightly, precautionary and additional steps outside of our usual obligations. We informed all the registered poultry and captive bird keepers in that area of the incident, which would typically only take place when we have an outbreak occurring in poultry or captive birds. So, we went above and beyond; so, we're right on top of it.

Diolch, Tom. A number of support schemes are available to farmers in the south-west Wales area, enabling them to develop existing or establish new diversification enterprises. An application window for the agricultural diversification and horticulture scheme is currently open, and it closes on 5 December.

Lovely to hear that. Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary. You will be aware that farmers in England benefit from class Q regulations that allow them to convert agricultural buildings to dwellings with minimal planning interference, but no such equivalent exists in the same way here in Wales, and that puts farmers here in Wales at a competitive disadvantage if they're looking to do the same thing. So, will you look again at what measures you could introduce in Wales to level the playing field for our farmers?

Yes. I'm always happy to have those conversations with the Cabinet Secretary for planning, but I would say, 'Let's do what's right in the Welsh context' as well, but more than happy to do that. I wonder if he's written previously to the Cabinet Secretary with responsibility for planning, but, if not, if he'd like to write to that Cabinet Secretary or to me or to both, we'd be more than happy to respond.

Diolch, Lee. Welsh Government remain vigilant to flood risks all year round. Working with key partners such as our risk management authorities, emergency services and the local resilience fora, we are focused on helping our responders support the most vulnerable in our society, who will feel the impacts of emergencies such as flooding most profoundly.

Diolch. The British Red Cross highlighted in their recent report that residents in social housing and those without insurance are particularly vulnerable to repeat flooding. Their report found that one in five people in high-risk areas are uninsured, and many lack the resources or information to prepare for or recover from flooding. So, can the Welsh Government outline what targeted measures are in place this winter to ensure these groups are not left behind, and specifically how our contingency plans are addressing the gaps in awareness, access to emergency accommodation and financial support for those who are most exposed and least protected?

Thank you, Lee, and this is such a critical issue, because that issue of awareness of insurance, where individuals can get insurance, and, if they cannot get insurance, what alternatives are out there, is critical and it will affect some of our more disadvantaged residents more than others. It is a real social justice issue.

The first thing I would say is—very much at this time of year, but always—I would urge everyone to look, first of all, at your house insurance and understand your coverage, if you have it, and many people do. The reason I say that is because standard home insurance policies do not always cover flood damage. Check that, please. There is, of course—and it's worth saying it here today and, again, seeking help from all Members to spread the word on this—the Flood Re scheme, which helps make flood assurance more accessible and affordable for properties at high risk of flooding. There is a role, of course, for social landlords as well. We're aware that a number of landlords have recently reviewed their policies to make sure that they have best practice in place with tenants about the risk to their homes and what to do in preparation for, in the eventuality of, and in the aftermath of, flooding as well, and we're keen to see more of our social landlords do that sort of work. And also it's engaging with the local resilience forums, which produce the plans for local communities as well.

And the other thing I would say, definitely, which I've mentioned on the floor before, is to look at the Flood Re build back better initiative. If you've been flooded, then, actually, that helps, with insurers providing up to £10,000 towards property flood resilience measures when repairing homes after a flood. I've seen it work, and I would encourage people to do that as well. This is a difficult area, Lee, but we're keen that social landlords play their part with their tenants and that we signpost people to where they can get insurance, as difficult as it is.

Question 8 [OQ63249] is withdrawn. Finally, question 9, Mike Hedges.

Thank you, Mike. Air quality in Swansea is compliant with all national and local statutory air quality limits. Swansea Council publishes an annual air quality progress report outlining the actions it's taking to improve air quality. We collectively remain committed to improving air quality in Swansea and right across Wales.

Thank you for that answer. Air quality has standards for seven key pollutants: benzene, 1,3-butadiene, carbon monoxide, lead, nitrogen dioxide, fine particles, PM10s, and sulphur dioxide. The council has carried out a multistage review and assessment of air quality within Swansea. As part of this, they have identified those areas that would exceed the national objectives. The Hafod air quality management area was declared, because Hafod was likely to fail the statutory nitrogen dioxide objectives. Microplastics are present in the air we breathe, posing a potentially significant and largely unquantifiable threat to human health and environmental well-being. What actions is the Welsh Government taking to improve air quality in Swansea, especially in Hafod?

Thank you very much indeed for that supplementary. So, the air quality within the Swansea agglomeration air quality assessment zone is being constantly monitored now through a network of automatic stations and diffusion tubes. So, they measure key pollutants, including some of those you mentioned, Mike: nitrogen dioxide; particulate matter, PM10 and PM2.5; ozone, sulphur dioxide and benzene. But, of interest to you on the way that we can keep on improving standards in Swansea and right throughout Wales, I'm expecting to launch a public consultation shortly on target options for fine particulate matter—PM2.5—and the associated monitoring requirements to underpin them. And as you'll know, Mike, within our air quality legislation, taken forward by an illustrious predecessor of mine, we have the ability to go further as the evidence on the ground changes that we need to focus on other air quality issues.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

The topical questions are next. Two questions today and the first is to be answered by the Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership, and to be asked by David Rees.

Thank you. Welsh Government Ministers and officials have regular discussions with Tata and the steel unions. We have been advised the temporary pause this year is due to be extended at three other sites owing to difficult market conditions.

Well, thank you for that answer, Minister. And for the record, Llywydd, I want to put on the record and remind Members that I'm a proud trade unionist and a member of Unite the Union.

Minister, on Friday, I received a call from an official from Tata that there were plans being announced to have an elongated—and I'm going to put in quotes—'festive shutdown' for the hot mill in Port Talbot, but also at the production lines in Llanwern and Trostre. This would also see steelworkers losing a large proportion of their income. There were talks of a 65 per cent basic salary being paid during that furlough. That's not happened normally in furloughs and shutdowns; staff usually get their normal pay. This is new to these things. Therefore, this is actually seeing staff losing income at a time of year when families need that money. It's Christmas time. They have mortgages to pay, they have food bills, they have heating, they have children they'll want to give presents to. So, it's disastrous for the communities.

I know that trade unions are raising some of that aspect, and I work with them and I fully support all the actions they're taking to fight that sort of 65 per cent rate. I place on record my thanks to the steel unions because they continue to work hard for steelworkers in very difficult times.

Tata, as you just indicated in your answer, indicates that global markets are to blame. They've been affected by the tariffs imposed by the United States—the 50 per cent on imported steel into the US—and of course, last week, we were here discussing the proposals of EU tariffs and the reduction in quotas that will also, in future, affect the markets. And, as a consequence, we are seeing steel being—I use the word 'dumped'—dumped in the UK markets, from China or from Vietnam, and that imported steel is having an impact upon the ability of Tata to sell its steel in the UK.

With that in mind, I suppose I want to know exactly what's going on. Because the anxiety families are facing—. Having suffered over 2,000 job losses when the blast furnaces were shut down—. And the faith in Tata—Tata are not indicating they're going to have a shutdown—but the faith in Tata at the moment is at rock bottom. They need reassurances that the Welsh Government is taking action to support the industry and to support them in particular. So, with that in mind, Minister, what discussions is the Welsh Government having with Tata about ensuring that these elongated shutdowns don't impact the long-term plans for the industry?

Also, whilst you're having those discussions, are you ensuring that financial support for these workers is put into place? Because, as I said, losing 35 per cent of your salary at a time of year when you need all that is going to have a huge impact upon families and communities. And are you having discussions with Tata about the possibility of future elongated shutdowns? Because I don't want to see this as a repetitive process. We know the global markets are very volatile, but we need to make sure this doesn't happen time after time after time. Because one of my worries is that we'll have an electric arc furnace built—the project is going ahead—it will be making steel, but there won't be a steel plant there to actually roll the steel, and steelworkers won't have their jobs in 2028 when that comes online. We must make sure that's happening.

Can I thank Dai Rees for the number of questions there and also recognise his role in supporting the steel industry, not just in Port Talbot, but across Wales for a number of years now? I point Members to my declarations of interest as a trade union member as well, and support all of them, members and trade union leaders, who have actively supported the industry for many, many years now.

I agree with Dai Rees that the call he received on Friday will be of concern to not just the workers at Tata Steel, but indeed their families and the wider communities. It's in that spirit that the company need to engage with trade unions to find a suitable solution to the problems that they are facing owing to the market conditions—those global conditions that Dai Rees refers to.

I can give the Member—. We are actively having conversations with both the company and the UK Government when it comes to the steel industry. On Saturday just gone, 11 October, the Cabinet Secretary for economy spoke with the Secretary of State for Wales and the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, the Minister for Industry, to discuss the proposed pause along with the concerns about steel tariffs, which was raised, I think, last week in a topical question to the Cabinet Secretary. Those conversations will continue. There's the opportunity again to have a further conversation in that spirit of partnership at the Tata transition board tomorrow, 16 October, where I'm sure this and other points the Member raised will be discussed further.

We want to see exactly the same thing that the Member wants to see, Llywydd: long-term viability for the sector, not just for the steel industry itself, but importantly for the Member's community, the supply chains and the downstream sites of Port Talbot. Dai Rees is absolutely right when he points to the future of steel being crucial to the future of Wales.

We are seeing those global market conditions causing difficulties for Tata and others, but we do want to work in partnership with them, through having those meaningful conversations, but importantly having those meaningful conversations with the workforce, because that's where the best solutions comes from. It's my expectation that the company follow that principle, engage with their recognised trade unions on the sites, on the three sites affected, to have those discussions and manage the discussion, given the timing of this announcement. Shutdowns are operational matters, they do happen, but I do recognise that the prolonged shutdown, particularly at this point with the upcoming Christmas period, will of course be difficult for the workforce, and they must work alongside the workforce to get through that.

The Member's point on the future and any more shutdowns of this nature, we have not been made aware of any plans in that regard. I'll just reiterate the point, for any decision that the company may wish to make in the future, not just about things like this, but any decision, they should do that with the workforce in mind and they should do that in social partnership. But, to be clear, we have not had a conversation or sight of any future shutdown in this period that the Member points to.

Dai Rees is completely right to point out that furloughs haven't happened on the site in Port Talbot. It's the first time they're happening. Of course, part of that is because we no longer have a blast furnace. It was too expensive for Tata to switch the blast furnace off, even when global markets were causing problems. But the fact facing a number of workers at the site is that they're going to be receiving 65 per cent of their overall wage in the run-up to Christmas. That is going to be catastrophic for so many families that I represent in my region, not just in Port Talbot, but along the M4 corridor. And now, not only that, but I am also receiving information that contractors are now being served notice by their companies because of this news. So, what I'm really keen to understand from the Government here is how they are going to be supporting, not just the workers at the site, who do need the support of the Government, but also those contractors who are going to be losing their jobs as a result of this. More often than not, the contractors are forgotten about in these disputes, but it's at a point now where people's confidence in the steel industry is at an all-time low.

And just to pick up as well on the international side, we're in a situation where tariffs are being put on our steel industry time and time again by other countries. We're going to be in a situation, as Dai has already pointed to, where we are going to be dumped on by other countries. And all the steel organisations are very clear in saying that the last country to put those tariffs up on the import of steel will be the first countries to de-industrialise and lose their steel industry. So, I really would like further news from the Minister about those conversations with the UK Government.

And on the steel strategy, it's great to know that conversations are going on, but the fact that this is being postponed now into the new year does not fill people with confidence. We need to move from conversations and move into action. So, I would really appreciate the Minister moving forward with that and ensuring that UK Government Ministers know the strength of feeling here in this Senedd, that we really need to get on with this steel strategy. Otherwise, we're going to be looking back on this period and wondering what went wrong. And we'll be able to tell you what went wrong: it's a lack of action by UK Government.

Could I thank Luke Fletcher for the range of questions? Just on the strength of feeling, Presiding Officer, well, I think, when it comes to the steel industry in Wales, the strength of the Senedd is very much recognised. It's not just the Government's position, I think there's cross-party support for the future of the steel industry and where we want to be for the future of the steel industry, and I can see opposition Members there. I can assure the Member that the Cabinet Secretary for economy takes every opportunity she can to raise with colleagues in UK Government, and counterparts in the industry as well, the importance of the steel strategy, the importance of the sector and the importance of the workforce, and not just the workers directly employed by Tata, but those in those downstream sites, and those contractors as well.

I haven't had the information that the Member has received with regard to contractors. If he wants to share that with me and the Cabinet Secretary's office, then we'll ask officials to take that forward. I repeat that there'll be a further opportunity where these matters are likely to be discussed at the transition board meeting that will take place tomorrow. But if he wants to share that information, then, of course, we will look into that further.

Just to repeat the point, Presiding Officer, I think the Cabinet Secretary made a detailed response on EU tariffs last week to questions from the Member himself and Members across the Chamber. The Cabinet Secretary did meet on Saturday to discuss the tariffs and this situation that we have in front of us. I take the Member's point on where we need to be in the future, and we'll take every opportunity to make our voice heard there. The Cabinet Secretary does it, and I will do the same there.

On the workforce point, I'll just repeat what I've said to Dai Rees: the importance of the company engaging directly with trade unions in Tata to come to a solution that is workable for everyone.

I thank the Member for Aberavon for bringing this forward, because there is real tension and worry in the community at the moment, in the steel community and the supply chain, which has rightly been highlighted by Luke Fletcher.

Last week, the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee took evidence from unions, local and national representatives, as well as Tata, and I was encouraged that Tata are looking forward to the electric arc furnace build. But what work are you doing as a Welsh Government to hold their feet to the fire to ensure that project stays to time, is completed, and that there are the downstream elements of the industry still in existence to ensure that that investment is worthwhile and that electric arc furnace becomes a reality? Because I am worried that, in the UK, as I raised with the Cabinet Secretary for the economy last week, we have the highest energy costs in comparison to continental Europe, where we've seen steel companies rowing back on electric arc furnace investment. If this prolonged or elongated festive shutdown is anything to go by, then I have real concerns as to Tata's commitment to that electric arc furnace, given where we are in the industrial cycle and tariffs.

It's quite right what Luke Fletcher and Dai Rees have said around dumping. Because when I raised that point with union bosses in the committee last week, around the tariffs that are being implemented, yes, there was the concern of the sale of product into areas due to tariffs, but the No. 1 concern was dumping of product into the UK market. So, please, can you reiterate again what you're doing with UK Government counterparts around the tariff element, and what you’re doing to hold Tata's feet to the fire to ensure (a) that electric arc furnace is up and running, (b) that the downstream industrial elements to make it viable continue to exist in Wales, and (c) that the supply chain is supported, as Luke Fletcher rightly highlighted?

Thanks, Sam Kurtz, for that. I'm very pleased that the economy committee was looking into the steel industry again and took important evidence from trade unions and representatives of the workforce. I'm pleased the Member recognises the importance of what they had to say and supports them going forward.

With the risk of repeating myself on the questions I've already answered today from other Members, and, indeed, on tariffs, which the Cabinet Secretary answered last week, we will continue to raise those matters. The Cabinet Secretary met with the UK Government on the weekend just gone, to discuss EU tariffs. We recognise what the Member has to say on that, and what other Members have said on tariffs, and the potential impact to the industry, and the need for the UK Government to have further conversations and take action here. The Cabinet Secretary will continue to take those conversations forward. We cannot be left in a situation where major partners are implementing solutions to protect their steel sector, only to leave the UK open to potential dumping. I think that was something that was recognised and referenced in the Member's question.

When it comes to wider investments and electric arc, you'll be aware the First Minister and the Cabinet Secretary were at the ground-breaking ceremony of the electric arc furnace in July. We will continue to work with Tata on this, and all stakeholders here, to hold their feet to the fire when it comes to electric arc furnace. We want to see a viable steel sector in the future in Wales. Electric arc furnace plays a very important part of that, and we want to see that project very much realised for all of the things that can happen in Dai Rees's region, the area he represents. We want, as Dai said, the future of steel to be a part of the future of Wales, and we'll continue to work with all partners who are interested in that, and see not just the opportunities that the electric arc furnace can have for Wales, but the opportunities around wider investment in the region. I was with the Member in Port Talbot to look at the floating offshore wind technology a few months ago, and we will continue to promote Welsh steel in the supply chain to realise those ambitions as well.

I'll put on record my membership of the Community trade union at the outset, Llywydd.

Minister, as you know, Llanwern steelworks in Newport East is a finishing plant and so has some distinct issues as compared to the general picture of the steel industry in Wales. I regularly meet with the workforce, the trade unions and management at Llanwern. It's clear, given the recent history of the steel industry in Wales and the UK, and these developments now with the extended closures set to take place over Christmas, that the existing anxiety and concern and sense of state of flux in the industry are now heightened, and I think concern and anxiety are at new levels.

In that context, it's really important that we're seen as being fully committed as a Welsh Government and as Senedd Members to the steel industry in Wales, as others have mentioned. For me, it's really important that the situation of Llanwern, and other finishing plants in Wales, is fully considered in the discussions that take place between the Welsh Government and Tata and the UK Government, and, indeed, that the trade unions are centrally involved in everything that takes place. So, I wonder if you could, once again, give me the reassurances that I've had on several occasions from Welsh Government Ministers that Llanwern will be fully considered in all the discussions that take place and any actions that ultimately emerge.

I thank John Griffiths for his questions. I can give him the assurances that he seeks. As I said, the Government is fully committed to seeing a viable steel sector. I think the Senedd is also committed to that. I think it's important that the two are.

What's crucial, Presiding Officer, is we see the steel sector as a whole and we don't just look at one plant in isolation. We do want to see the steel sector as a whole, and downstream sites to Port Talbot are very important, like Llanwern, Trostre and Shotton, and all the sites that feed off Port Talbot.

I will give the Member reassurance today, in the conversations that the Government has with the company and other partners, including, importantly, trade unions, that Llanwern will be very much a part of those conversations and part of the solution to those conversations that we'll have going forward. Importantly, the workforce will be there.

I'll reiterate the point I made earlier in opening the questions: it is my expectation that the company and companies are engaged directly with trade unions in that spirit of social partnership to find the best possible solution to the situations in front of them.

Finally, Sioned Williams.

Diolch, Llywydd. These tariffs will have a huge effect on the steelworkers and their families in Port Talbot, people I represent, people who have already faced so much uncertainty. These temporary closures are compounding months of anxiety, and it's leading to a cynicism as well, a feeling that Tata is just not keeping faith with them. It's a terrible situation, as we've heard other Members describe, so close to Christmas, it's going to have a huge impact on both the financial and mental well-being of the workers and their families.

How is the Welsh Government going to ensure, in conversation with Tata and the UK Government, that the confidence of the workforce and their families is maintained in this industry? It runs in their blood, but they are feeling more and more like they're just being left high and dry, waiting for the next hammer blow to fall. These are faithful, skilled workers, and I'm afraid, as we've seen over the past months when we saw the closure of the blast furnaces, many of them are going to leave their communities. They're not going to put up with this. These are highly paid, highly skilled workers, who've given their all for this industry, and they just feel they're being let down over and over again.

I thank Sioned Williams for the questions and the opportunity to reiterate the points that I've made. I want to recognise the highly skilled workforce of the steel sector, as the Member did, particularly in Wales. I myself have worked alongside some of them in the Shotton plant, so I know full well the skills and the lifetimes that they put into the industry. It is right that we want to see a thriving steel sector in the future, so they can support their families, and, indeed, future generations can have skilled jobs in the steel industry as well.

The Member asks how the Welsh Government will continue the conversations to make sure the workforce is heard. We do that in a number of ways. As I said, the Cabinet Secretary has already had conversations on this particular issue and the issue of EU tariffs at the weekend. The Cabinet Secretary will continue those conversations at ministerial level, and her office will continue those conversations directly with the company and trade unions as well. There is a further opportunity, I think, to discuss this particular matter and other matters at the Tata transition board, which will take place tomorrow. I'm pretty sure that will be raised by Members of this Senedd, and there will be other opportunities, including for the trade unions, to raise those particular points.

I just want to reiterate the point I've already made: the best way of engaging and finding solutions for companies, including Tata, is to work directly with their workforce, their trade unions, in that spirit of social partnership. We will be promoting that at every step of the way, as we will promote the steel sector at every step of the way, as the Cabinet Secretary does on a daily basis.

And finally, finally, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Thank you, Presiding Officer. Minister, thank you for taking the question today. I've constantly heard you refer back to the Cabinet Secretary's statement last week on tariffs, but I haven't heard it come from your mouth that the Welsh Government's position is to support trade defence measures to support the steel industry. We've seen the aggressive tactics of China and other major steel producers in pumping below-cost-of-production steel onto the market. So, is it the case that the Welsh Government does firmly stand behind trade defence measures, which was asked for by both Tata Steel and the unions in our committee meeting last week, as one of the prerequisites to protecting the steel industry here in Wales and the rest of the United Kingdom? Because without those trade defence measures, we really will not have a steel industry left.

I thank the Member for raising the question again here today. Presiding Officer, I think the Cabinet Secretary responsible for the economy, energy and planning answered a number of questions on EU tariffs last week, and it was only last week, Presiding Officer. I'll refer the Member to the answers pointed on EU tariffs. I can assure the Member we want to see a viable steel sector here in Wales, and we will make every effort, working with the UK Government and our partners in the industry, to make sure that happens going forward.

Thank you, Minister. The next question is to be answered by the Trefnydd and to be asked by Janet Finch-Saunders.

Diolch, Llywydd. Firstly, may I thank you for accepting this topical question today? I understand—. My thoughts—.

And I accept those thanks. Thank you, Janet.

Thank you. So, this is a matter, really, for a number of my residents—

You need to ask the question. Now you've thanked me for accepting it, you need to ask the question.

Thank you very much indeed, Janet Finch-Saunders. Diolch yn fawr. No further issues have been found on the Menai suspension bridge since the issue with the bolts was discovered earlier this month, which the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales provided a written statement about on 6 October.

It has been reported in the press, I understand, that further defects have been found, you see. Anyway, going back to the last statement that was made, people are asking for an update. Clearly, the situation as it stands is not acceptable. It's having a horrendous impact on people working on the island who live in other parts of north Wales, actually. It does fall under the jurisdiction of the Welsh Government. I understand some controversy has been caused by the fact that there was a hint in the statement made that the bridge works are all part of UK Highways A55 DBFO Ltd. There was an implication that UK Highways A55 DBFO Ltd was run by Westminster, when, in fact, it's work that's put to them by the Welsh Government.

Over the last week, motorists have faced congestion due to delays, with diversions for all traffic to the Britannia bridge. A recent audit found that bolts and nuts on the beams under the bridge had corrosion. Questions must be answered as to why, during all the three years of work that have gone on, this has only been found now. In any project with any company carrying out repairs, you'd have thought that all the anxiety that's been felt by residents, businesses and people across north Wales—. You would have thought something as important as this—rusty nuts and bolts—would have been found during that period. This recent audit, finding the rusty nuts and bolts, is just—. We need to know why this has not been picked up sooner.

We know that 13,300 vehicles use the Menai bridge every day, travelling in both directions. We also know it's a main route for the port traffic going in, or lorries and things like that. The bridge now has partial reopening expected to operate between the hours of 07:00 and 19:00, with a full closure overnight. The bridge will be limited to vehicles up to a 3-tonne weight limit, and the flow of traffic off the island in the morning and onto the island in the afternoon will be one-way, basically. Cyclists will be expected to dismount and use the footpath, and it's just causing so much aggravation to residents there, to workers there. And it further clearly demonstrates the importance of improving connectivity between Ynys Môn and the mainland, and that would be made possible by the creation of a third Menai crossing.

The cost of inaction is what could have been planned maintenance, mitigation measures in place, and now it's turned into closures. And it's just—. Well, there's huge concern, and lots and lots of people are raising concerns.

Can you just ask the questions now?

The people of Anglesey deserve better, people across north Wales needing to get onto the island deserve better. The First Minister has stated while they have not ruled out—

I did ask you to ask the question.

Okay. Cabinet Secretary, will you agree with me that whilst the First Minister has not ruled out a third crossing, there's been no mention of any financial—? He mentions there are financial barriers. So, will you join my Welsh Conservative colleagues and I to call for the creation of a third Menai crossing—well, not you, but will you persuade the Cabinet Secretary to commit to spending the needed funds in north Wales in order to build this third crossing, which is much needed? Diolch.

Thank you very much, Janet Finch-Saunders. Your question was about asking me to make a statement on the further defects found on the Menai bridge, and I will answer that question.

The issue—the discovery of defective bolts—has come about for the phase 2 works and was identified by UK Highways A55 design team from the various analyses, investigations and inspections that were being undertaken for the next stage of works. And as you'll be aware, every possible option was explored to keep the bridge open safely. The advice from engineers and the enforcement concerns raised by UK Highways A55 DBFO Ltd left no alternative but to implement a full temporary closure. It's absolutely right that you draw attention to the disruption this short temporary closure had. I know that the Cabinet Secretary, and I on his behalf today, will again extend our sincere apologies to the local communities and businesses and those affected.

Over that weekend of 5 and 6 October, the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales met directly with UK Highways A55 DBFO Ltd. He met with local Members of the Senedd and Parliament and the leader of Ynys Môn to understand the situation in full and to provide an update. And, again, it's important to say that he relayed in no uncertain terms the deep frustration and disappointment felt by the community and himself—a view shared by local Members, expressed today and last week, regarding the performance of UK Highways A55 DBFO Ltd in managing this critical infrastructure.

But I will say, Llywydd, that the bridge is now open for one-way traffic, light controlled, for under 3-tonne traffic, from 7 a.m. to 7 p.m. daily. From 7 a.m. to 1 p.m., traffic can travel eastbound from Anglesey to Bangor; from 1 p.m. to 7 p.m., traffic can travel westbound from Bangor to Anglesey. So, obviously, action has been taken to make sure that there is a traffic flow.

Thank you for the statement, but I am afraid that there are a great number of questions regarding the Menai bridge that still have not been fully answered. I do understand that perhaps you may not have the full information at present, but I would like to have full answers to questions. The first question is: why were the latest problems not discovered sooner? We still have not had a full answer about that. How will what is happening with fixing what has recently been found affect the wider work programme—the timetable for that programme?

These events do remind us of the fragility of the transport infrastructure across the Menai straits, and it is essential that the Welsh Government treat this matter with the gravity that it deserves, not only by ensuring that the necessary repairs on the Menai bridge are properly funded and carried out on time, but also by introducing effective short-term mitigation measures on the Britannia bridge.

In terms of the Britannia bridge, what is the latest information regarding the introduction of a three-lane traffic control system on that bridge? What is the latest information regarding the introduction of contraflow lanes on the Britannia bridge? What is the latest information regarding the introduction of specific measures around the junctions? And also, what is the latest information regarding keeping the Britannia bridge open in windy conditions? Now, those are questions that have been asked by local people and by myself as their representative for many years, and we're still not receiving answers.

So, we would appreciate some clarity about what action the Welsh Government intends to take to strengthen the resilience of travel across the Menai in the short term, ensuring that the residents of Arfon and Anglesey are not forced to suffer unacceptable levels of traffic and congestion on both sides of both bridges.

Thank you very much, Siân Gwenllian, for your questions today and last week—

—because I know you were asking questions as well on this last week. And I think your question—. The first question, which I think I did seek to respond on to the Member Janet Finch-Saunders, was: why wasn't this problem discovered sooner? The frustration about the discovery of this problem, which of course I've expressed on behalf of the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales, the fact that it was actually discovered as part of the phase 2 works and identified by that UK Highways A55 design team, which was about investigations and inspections for the next stage of works in terms of the bridge, again, is something where—. You asked the question on how will it affect the wider work. I understand that the Menai resilience study undertaken by the North Wales Transport Commission made 16 recommendations. The top ones were taken forward and the Cabinet Secretary for transport has committed to the following work being progressed, which would include implementation of a wind deflector on Britannia bridge to the next stage of detailed design; progressing development to upgrade the bridge traffic restriction equipment, alongside a variable speed limit; implementing new road markings and signs—part of your question—between junction 9 roundabouts, to improve lane discipline and management; and progressing a study and detailed risk assessment to confirm the suitability and practicality of a three-lane tidal flow system on the Britannia bridge. All of those recommendations were accepted. The A55 transport needs and resilience study, which is due to start this year, will consider all options to ensure the resilience of the A55 along its length, including the Menai crossings. That can range from possibly tidal flow on the Britannia bridge, already being looked at as part of those transport commission recommendations, all the way up to a third Menai crossing. So, the wider work programme is being taken forward.

Just again to answer the points about what's happening, I've given you some details about the traffic flows at present. The work is expected to be—. The temporary bridging beam under the Menai suspension bridge is crucial. That work started this Monday. It's expected to be completed by the end of the month, and this will allow traffic management to revert to 7.5 tonne and two-way flow, and the bolt issue work will commence as soon as possible. And then the phase 2 works will then recommence following the bolt repairs. I think it's really important to share this today. And of course, in normal conditions, emergency vehicles, for example, are to use the Britannia bridge, but this is something where, in the event of issues with the Britannia bridge, emergency services could use the Menai suspension bridge, following special travel plans. So, these issues all have to be taken into account as they deal with this temporary closure and these vital urgent repairs.

Thank you, Trefnydd, for those answers.

Item 4 is the 90-second statements. There is one today from Sam Rowlands.

Diolch, Llywydd. I'd like to take a moment to mark the end of Baby Loss Awareness Week, which has run from 9 October to today, 15 October. This is a moment for people across Wales and around the world to come together to remember the babies who've died during pregnancy, at birth or infancy, and for us to stand alongside the families and loved ones and those who grieve for them.

The heartbreak of losing a baby is something that no parent should ever have to endure. For too many it's a painful and life-altering reality. That's why, this week, it's been important to break the silence that often surrounds baby loss to raise awareness and to show families that they are not alone. I want to pay tribute to the charity Sands and all of the organisations involved in this week for the work that they do every single day supporting bereaved families, raising awareness and pushing for better care and understanding.

As part of Baby Loss Awareness Week, we are invited to wear the pink and blue ribbon, and I'm pleased to see so many Members across this Chamber doing so. It's a small but powerful gesture to show our support and help to start conversations about an issue that is too often hidden. We're also encouraged to take part in a wave of light at 7 p.m. this evening, lighting a candle to remember every baby lost too soon, to join with families across the world in honouring their memory. I know that Members across this Chamber remain committed to improving bereavement care and ensuring that every family affected by baby loss receives the compassion and support that they deserve. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Next is the motion to suspend Standing Orders in order to allow the motion to establish a committee to be debated. I call on a member of the Business Committee to formally move the motion. Heledd Fychan.

Yes, I formally move, Llywydd.

The proposal is to suspend Standing Orders. Does any Member object? No. That motion is therefore agreed.

That allows us to move to the motion to establish a committee. I call on a member of the Business Committee once again to formally move. Heledd Fychan.

I formally move, Llywydd.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed and the committee is established.

Item 5 is postponed.

We will move, therefore, to item 6, a debate on the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee report, 'Report on Transport for Wales’ performance 2024-25'. I call on the Chair of the committee to make the first contribution and to move the motion. Llyr Gruffydd.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. This debate focuses on the third annual report by the committee on Transport for Wales during this Senedd term. The report specifically covers the 2024-25 period and draws on two key pieces of work by the committee, namely our visit to the metro depot and control centre at Taffs Well and our scrutiny session with TfW earlier this year.

Both pieces of work gave Members a clear picture of the scale of the challenges facing TfW, as well as, I have to say, the progress that it has made in recent years as it continues to try to transform rail and public transport in Wales. Now, the report contains 20 recommendations and TfW has accepted all of them, either in full or in principle. I’d like to thank TfW for the open and constructive manner in which it has engaged with our work and also for the comprehensive response it has provided.

I’d like to turn now to the main themes of our report. First, governance and corporate development. The committee has revisited this area each year because it is so important to the way in which TfW operates. We have always maintained that an arm's-length body handling around £0.5 billion of public money must operate transparently and must be subject to oversight that is clear and effective. We heard evidence that engagement between TfW and the Welsh Government improved during the budget cycle in 2024-25. The process is now more efficient and, for the first time, TfW's budget was published as an addendum to the Welsh Government's draft budget. The committee welcomed this as a practical step forward that will allow for more timely scrutiny. However, Members felt that this action to improve transparency still falls short. We continue to believe that the long-term goal should be a single comprehensive budget published alongside the Government's draft budget. That would then, of course, place TfW on the same footing as other public bodies and it would allow Members and the public to see the full picture in terms of how public money is being spent.

We also examined the internal governance arrangements at TfW, particularly the role of the performance board, which brings senior officials from TfW and the Welsh Government together. We heard that the board has improved alignment between TfW's corporate priorities and ministerial objectives, that forecasting is now more accurate, and that funding decisions have become more disciplined. We welcome these developments, naturally, but Members agreed that the real test of good governance is whether these improvements lead to better value for money, and more reliable services for passengers. And that, of course, is what the committee will continue to monitor.

Finally, on performance measurement, TfW told us that its corporate KPIs are being reviewed to ensure that they remain fit for purpose. Quarterly data are now published with year-on-year comparisons. Again, this is a step in the right direction, but we once again continue to be concerned that the way data are presented does not yet make it easy for the public, or indeed Members of the Senedd, to assess whether performance is improving over time. We have therefore recommended that TfW should focus its KPIs on the outcomes that matter most to passengers, and that each report should include a clear narrative showing whether performance is improving.

I’ll turn now to the workforce. The committee has consistently emphasised that TfW as a major national employer should lead by example in promoting diversity and equality of opportunity. In 2024-25, there were encouraging steps forward. TfW appointed its first female operational director and also achieved a 50:50 gender balance in a driver cohort for the first time. These are important milestones in what has traditionally been a male-dominated industry. TfW told us that targeted recruitment events, mentoring, and partnerships with schools and community groups are all contributing to this gradual change. Members welcomed these achievements, but agreed that sustained effort will be needed to embed this cultural change. Recruiting more women into operational roles such as driving and engineering is vital, not just to improve representation, but also to help close the gender pay gap.

On wider diversity, the committee was encouraged to hear about TfW's partnerships with organisations such as Oasis, the Welsh Refugee Council and the Muslim Council of Wales, which are helping again to promote opportunities among underrepresented groups. The committee supports this approach and encourages TfW to expand it beyond Cardiff to other regions. A workforce that reflects the communities that it serves is essential to building trust and ensuring that public transport meets the needs of all users.

Another major theme of the committee's work this year was bus services. As a committee, we have been concerned that passenger numbers in Wales have recovered more slowly since the pandemic than in England or Scotland. Buses are the backbone of public transport in many communities in Wales, and, without strong patronage levels for these services, then they become harder to sustain, and this is particularly the case in more rural areas. TfW and the Welsh Government told us that Wales's older demographic profile may be behind the slower recovery, as well as structural factors such as dispersed settlements and the impact of the pandemic on concessionary travel. However, the committee felt that the reasons are not yet fully understood, therefore, we recommended that TfW should commission research to identify the barriers and to define targeted measures ahead of the introduction of bus franchising. TfW has accepted this and we expect that evidence to be published so that it can inform decisions before the first franchised services begin in the south-west in 2027.

I just want to put on record that I have a family member who is employed by Transport for Wales. I'm grateful for the opportunity to contribute to this important debate on Transport for Wales's performance, as laid out in the committee's latest report. I'm also grateful for the work of the committee members in compiling this report, in particular the Chair of the committee, who's just spoken.

As we know, public transport in Wales must work for the people of Wales. It must be reliable, accountable and transparent, but, as the committee's report has highlighted, too often some of these areas can be missed, and I don't wish to repeat the words of the committee Chair, so I'll try and focus my remarks today on just two key areas that I believe the committee report brings to light. The first is around financial transparency and the second area is around service reliability. For me, these are two issues at the very heart of confidence, both in our public bodies, in terms of financial transparency, and confidence in our transport system from a reliability perspective.

So, first, on the financial transparency, the committee has repeatedly called for Transport for Wales to publish its full budget alongside the Welsh Government's own draft budget. This is not a radical ask, it's basic public accountability, especially when we're talking about budgets of hundreds of millions of pounds of taxpayers' money. There'll be councils with similar budget spending, which has much more significant transparency when it comes to how that spending takes place. Yet, once again, we find ourselves in a position where that clarity is missing. We heard from the chief executive of Transport for Wales, who admitted in his response to the committee that TfW still doesn't operate with a single consolidated budget. So, how can the public or this Senedd, as elected Members, properly scrutinise those spending decisions when there doesn't appear to be a clear, unified picture of how hundreds of millions of pounds of public funds are being used? Let's remember that this is public money. Whilst TfW may be at arm's length to Government, it's subsidised significantly by taxpayers' funding. It's delivering and attempting to deliver major infrastructure, overseeing key services and directly impacting the daily lives of Welsh commuters and travellers. The Welsh public deserves to know where the money is going and whether it's being spent wisely. So, Cabinet Secretary, this lack of progress, in my view, is not acceptable. We've heard a lot about improving transparency; we need to see more action.

Now, to the second point, the issue that affects passengers most directly—service reliability. The committee's report rightly points out that performance levels are still far below public expectations. We've all heard the complaints, and some of us may have had to experience some of these directly ourselves: delayed trains, overcrowding, cancelled services and a lack of consistent communication. This isn't just a nuisance for a few Senedd Members from time to time, but, for many people, it's the difference between them getting to work on time or not getting to work at all, impacting their livelihoods. This matters even more as we ask people to shift away from cars and towards public transport. How can we ask people to make that shift when the service remains unacceptably inconsistent? Yes, we know that the situation isn't always easy, and, yes, there may be legacy issues, but the public wants to see solutions to these problems. The committee recommended that TfW implement better systems for monitoring and reporting on service delivery, and I strongly support that; we need to see clear targets, monthly performance dashboards and public reporting that actually means something to passengers. It's not enough to say, 'We're doing our best', we need to see measurable progress, and I believe that the committee's report points to that very clearly.

I'm very pleased that we're able to have this debate today on the committee's report on Transport for Wales's performance, and I'd like to thank James Price and his colleagues for coming to give evidence to the committee and also for the great welcome they gave to us when we visited Taff's Well and saw the fantastic fleet of trains that have now started to run on the Valleys lines, which is really transforming the transport system in south-east Wales.

I'd like to focus on two particular areas of the report. The first has been referred to by the Chair, and that is on the gender balance make-up of Transport for Wales, and we do highlight that in our report. I think it's very pleasing that there's been an increase in the number of women that are working for the company and that a concerted effort is being made to bring more women on board, but I do note that this has been more in non-rail divisions, such as office roles, rather than working on the rail itself. James Price said in his evidence that women now accounted for more than 50 per cent of staff in senior management roles, graduate training schemes and internships, which is a fantastic place to have gotten to, but we know that the traditional rail operational roles are predominantly still male-dominated roles, and he did make the point that there is very limited turnover in staff. I think the Chair did mention that the first operational director has been appointed, who is a woman, and that the cohort of drivers has reached a 50:50 split. So, I think that is a very significant development. I think it does show that Transport for Wales is making a great effort to try to make its workforce more representative of the communities that it serves, but, ironically, as the Chair also said, because of the nature of the roles being filled by women, and the pay scales associated with the traditionally male roles, the gender pay gap is actually increasing. We do feel that this needs to be urgently addressed, and even more things should be done to ensure that the whole workforce is representative of our society.

The second issue I'd like to raise is to do with Transport for Wales's performance, and that I'm linking to my experiences as a constituency MS, because earlier this year, the top-10 worst performing train stations in the UK were revealed, and of the top-10 stations, three were along the Coryton line in my constituency of Cardiff North. And from speaking to constituents about the service, I understand why this was the case. The line was frequently met with cancellations, and trust in the service was low. But I have been encouraged by the fact that, since that data was released, Transport for Wales has made a concerted effort to put things right, and I've been working with local representatives to ensure that there is some improvement. Now, reports of cancellations are now far fewer, and the line, as I said earlier, benefits now from a completely new fleet of trains, which are far more environmentally friendly, more reliable and more accessible for people to use.

I want to begin by acknowledging Transport for Wales's engagement with the committee's annual report and also with myself as transport spokesperson for Plaid Cymru. It's welcome that all 20 of the recommendations were accepted, but I'd like to emphasise something that we all know too well: acceptance is not the same as delivery. We must confront the growing gap between commitments made and results delivered. Words alone don’t get people to work on time. What passengers, communities and businesses across Wales deserve are measurable improvements visible in their daily journeys.

Let’s start with performance. TfW promised that, by 2025, 95 per cent of journeys would be on new trains, yet today that figure stands at around 77 per cent—a clear shortfall, and one that directly affects passenger confidence. This is a significant miss against a flagship commitment. Passengers were told that the new fleet would transform their experience by reducing cancellations, improving reliability and ending overcrowding, yet adjusted cancellations in Wales remain above the Great Britain average.

Reliability is what matters to people trying to get to work, to school or hospital on time, and accountability should be the foundation of that reliability. The Welsh Government, as the funder and strategic partner of TfW, must show stronger leadership in driving these delivery standards. It's not enough to welcome progress; Ministers must ensure that promises made to passengers are actually met.

On that note of accountability, I'm pleased that TfW has accepted in principle the recommendation to review its key performance indicator framework, and that new KPIs have since been published. But let's be clear: if performance reporting continues to rely on outdated, opaque indicators, the performance board risks becoming a bureaucratic exercise rather than the driver of real accountability. KPIs must reflect the diversity of the Welsh network. The core Valleys lines face very different challenges from the rural lines in mid and north Wales.

Turning, then, to buses, usage in Wales remains stubbornly at just 78 per cent of pre-COVID levels, the slowest recovery anywhere in Britain. TfW's leadership role in franchising and integration is welcome, but as we've heard, the decision not to include concessionary fares in the new tap-on, tap-off system weakens the idea of a truly integrated network. We also need clear assurances that franchising will not lead to service cuts or to a centralised, Cardiff-heavy model that leaves smaller communities behind. Again, the Welsh Government must guarantee that its funding and franchising framework protects rural and regional equity.

As we've read in the report, the committee raised the urgent need for stronger climate resilience, particularly flood protection for vulnerable lines like the Conwy valley and Cambrian routes. TfW accepted that recommendation, and I welcome the development of its weather resilience and climate change adaptation strategy, but given the frequency of weather-related disruptions, passengers deserve more than long-term planning. They need immediate funding measures now.

Thank you to the committee for the report and to TfW for their clear co-operation.

It's a very narrow point that I wish to raise today, and that is linked to recommendation 3 in the report, which referenced value for money, and it's following on from the scrutiny point that my colleague Sam Rowlands made earlier on. Earlier this year, I was contacted by a train driver, a Transport for Wales train driver, and following that, my office undertook some freedom of information requests with Transport for Wales in relation to spare drivers and driving patterns. For the time period requested, TfW, by their own figures, had 89 drivers and 70 conductors more than is needed to run the service, and in excess of the established posts. This equates to an excess wage bill per annum of over £8 million.

To explain, I understand the need for spare drivers. They are utilised to ensure services run and to minimise cancellations and delays. A spare driver works a shift, but is not allocated to a route that day. In fact, they just sit in the office and they wait for a call. More often than not, that call does not come. They're on standby in a depot in case a scheduled driver cannot drive that route. On average, there are 11 spare drivers and six spare conductors per day. However, I'm told that quite often there are three times this number sitting in the depot. This is a considerably higher number than when Arriva ran the service.

It's essential that the TfW train service is seen as a service that provides value for money in all areas, not just with regards to fares and tickets, but also in that excess and perceived waste are minimised—in fact, are eradicated. So, I would like this to be looked into more, and some answers from TfW why this perceived waste is allowed to continue. Diolch yn fawr.

Last year was an important one for transport policy, and Transport for Wales has a few big years ahead. We are moving towards bus franchising, so there was a lot to consider in this inquiry. Integrated transport remains a firm ambition, and we are getting there. Perhaps we would like to travel faster and, in that respect, it mirrors some of the journeys people experience day to day.

Of course, there have been rail cancellations and, of course, every single time that happens, it causes frustration with people being held up at a station, and the cancellation of any service, of course, is also bad news for those individuals involved. But I think that we have to recognise that we are in climate change, and that very often it is flooding that creates the biggest challenge of all, the biggest disruption of all, and I think going forward we will have to look at and act, where we are able to, about really taking that situation more seriously. If you look at where our rail tracks are along the coastline, when the weather gets rough you can see the water because it's coming along your window if you happen to be on a train, and more than that, you can't see the train at all because it won't arrive because it's flooded along the marshes.

But overall, it is a positive picture. Transport for Wales has reported achieving the greatest improvement in punctuality among all train operators, and it's taking on a growing role in active travel, and customer satisfaction with rail services on the up, and bus franchising, as I mentioned, is under way. There is, of course, some joined-up thinking between Welsh Government and Transport for Wales, with significant investment that has been put into rolling stock, whether that's on the road or on the rail. Of course, the free bus travel for over-60s, the cheap fares for young people and veterans all help to make this a better experience.

I want to focus my contribution on rural communities, and I want to remind people, like I always do, that's a third of our total population. Therefore, I'm of course pleased that Transport for Wales accepted recommendation 7 in regard to integrated ticketing for rural and long-distance bus services. That's already operating. It's been rolled out across Traws Cymru services, and passengers using T1 and T2 services can now buy tickets and journey plan from national rail planning and retail platforms directly to destinations as a simple add-on fare. And again, on the TrawsCymru network, TfW has brought in single-leg pricing and a distance-based structure, reducing the cost of single journeys for most passengers. That's, again, a positive development.

On trains, we have discussed the difficulty of comparing the performance of more infrequent rural services with busier urban lines. Of course, a cancelled train on an hourly or less-frequent service is far more disruptive to the individual than on a train journey that runs every 15 minutes or so. Again, TfW accepted in principle our recommendations to publish data by individual routes going forward. That should give us a better and clearer performance picture in the future and help better serve rural communities.

I'd just like to start by saying my experience using rail transport is very different to that of the Conservative Member for North Wales. The negativity in the local press has been really disappointing, because we need to encourage usage.

Rail travel has significantly improved over the last year, with more carriages and increased passenger usage following the £800 million investment. I use the rail network regularly and I want to take this opportunity to praise Transport for Wales staff—the drivers, the guards on the trains and on the platforms, the travel companions, those that deliver the catering. They, along with the CCTV, mean that I always feel safe when using the train no matter what time of the day, and comfortable, and they provide so much information and assistance, helping travellers, which I also think contributes to the increased rail patronage and confidence, encouraging more people to use them.

I was pleased to see the response from Transport for Wales regarding issues raised with flooding impacting services and also on climate resilience, which is a huge concern going forward, as many of the lines are low lying, as my colleague Joyce Watson said, and part of the north Wales line acts as a sea defence, which is always a worry for me.

We need to work towards a one-network system, making travel easier and affordable. I'm still concerned regarding the variation of fares, especially rail fares in north Wales and south Wales. The introduction of tap on, tap off is really helpful, as well as the much-valued T network serving rural communities with subsidies. I've been meeting residents recently at various drop-ins, and they were concerned they were going to lose the bus, and I was saying, 'No, we just need to learn from you what's really important going forward when we look at the new network', and they're so pleased to have rural transport still.

I'm pleased there is a focus on public transport. I was initially concerned about knowledge and capacity within Transport for Wales, but have been reassured recently in meetings that expertise and capacity has increased, which will be needed towards delivering an integrated network, and the bus Bill going forward. Their engagement with stakeholders is really important, and I have welcomed it and what they've been doing so far. I'm pleased that in Wales we have retained free bus travel from 60 years of age. It's disappointing that people haven't returned in the same numbers following the pandemic, but it is good that the successful £1 bus fare pilot has been introduced to encourage under-21-year-olds to use bus transport from a young age, so hopefully we can grow it that way. Thank you.

I call on the Counsel General and Minister for Delivery, Julie James.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. On behalf of the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales, I want to start by thanking the committee very much for all of its hard work. Your careful scrutiny has genuinely strengthened our work in this area. I also just want to talk a little bit about not just aspiration, but about the delivery, what Transport for Wales has already achieved, and what's already making a real difference on the ground.

Deputy Llywydd, as always, it's frustrating—I won't have time to answer all the points raised, but I will do my best to gallop through as many of them as possible. As the committee Chair has already said, Transport for Wales accepted 19 of the 20 recommendations in full and one in principle—a serious commitment, and we will be updating you on progress shortly.

I also want to acknowledge Vernon Everitt, who took up the chair role this summer. In just a few months, he's reshaping the board, driving performance and robustly representing Welsh interests in UK rail reform discussions. His leadership is really making an impact.

Deputy Llywydd, Transport for Wales is more than just a rail operator—it's a real symbol of what this Welsh Labour Government is delivering for our communities. We made a promise: we promised to build a modern, integrated public transport system that puts people first, and we're delivering that promise.

Transport for Wales is now one of the UK's most successful public transport organisations, and it's homegrown. After just 10 years, Transport for Wales has become a transport powerhouse, with over 4,500 staff and a turnover of more than £500 million. And I completely agree with Carolyn Thomas that the staff I encounter are always willing to go above and beyond to help out. They're always friendly and very knowledgeable.

Passenger numbers tell the story. In 2024-25, TfW carried 31.7 million rail passengers and 1.2 million on TrawsCymru buses—a growth of 19 per cent and 11 per cent respectively. That's just not to be sneezed at. Train fare revenue rose by £25 million, from £148 million to £175 million. And today, Transport for Wales stands as the most improved operator in the UK. Punctuality, reliability and customer satisfaction are all rising. That's not just progress, that's proof that public ownership, investment and ambition work.

Because this isn't only about trains—it's about leadership. Wales is now leading the UK in transport reform. From the south Wales metro to upgrades on the north Wales coast main line, we're setting the pace, not following it. We're showing what's possible when public transport is treated as a public good and not a private profit centre.

Would you take an intervention?

Of course, John.

It's on the subject of active travel. The report reflects concern in terms of the regionalisation of funding for active travel and concern that that will weaken the progress that we've seen towards active travel in Wales. The report asks for reassurance from the Welsh Government that, within those regional budgets, there will be appropriate prioritisation for active travel. Are you able to give that reassurance, Cabinet Secretary?

Thank you, John. As part of the regional transport planning, which goes alongside the regional strategic planning for the networks, that will happen. So you will have an integrated system. It isn't just being dissipated to all the councils; there is a regional transport plan to go with that. So, yes, I can, I think, happily give that reassurance.

Dirprwy Lywydd, as I was saying, Transport for Wales is driving some serious innovation. We've seen 150,000 journeys using tap on, tap off pay-as-you-go on the core Valleys lines, and 40 per cent of bus journeys in north Wales are now contactless, which is a real step forward. Although we do agree with the committee's point about concessionary fares and integration, and we are definitely taking that on board.

But through partnership, we've shown public sector models work. When private operators like Avanti West Coast and Great Western Railway were paralysed by strikes, Transport for Wales kept all services running, thanks to our social partnership approach and our fair dialogue with our unions. That is something to be shouted about and achieved. It doesn't happen easily and we are very, very grateful to them for that approach.

I'm particularly delighted, as Julie Morgan highlighted, that Transport for Wales has appointed its first woman operational director, its first 50:50 gender split driver cohort, getting into the areas that women don't normally get into, and, of course, it continues to work closely, as the Chair acknowledged, with Oasis, the Welsh Refugee Council and the Muslim Council of Wales, to ensure inclusion is not an afterthought, it's fully embedded. Transport for Wales will work very hard to continue on that journey to make sure that integration happens.

In terms of accountability, a new performance board has strengthened alignment between Transport for Wales and the Welsh Government, improving planning, sharpening budgets and ensuring real-time accountability. And our key performance indicator reporting is improving. It's not just box ticking, it's a meaningful KPI to ensure transparency. We're happy, of course, to share that reporting with the committee, which is why the response is as it is, in principle, as we develop the KPIs. Because, I agree, passengers deserve to know how we're doing with no hiding and no spin on the line that they're concerned about.

Next year, Transport for Wales turns 10. It's been a decade of building something from scratch, a decade of learning, adapting, improving and, as a former transport Minister, holding our nerve. Transport for Wales is now a UK leader in transport reform, enhancing the scope, quality and reliability of its services, and the people of Wales are responding with their patronage and their trust. Just to give us an example, on the Coryton line that Julie Morgan highlighted, cancellations are now just at 5.6 per cent and on-time performance was at 95.7 per cent—that's up by 12.1 per cent year on year.

I call on Llyr Gruffydd to reply to the debate.

Thank you to everyone who has participated.

Thank you all. I think, Sam, you distilled, I suppose, some of the sentiments of the committee in three words: transparency, reliability and accountability. You could have sat down after those three words, but we enjoyed your contribution, and thank you for that.

Julie, you're right; gender balance is still a work in progress, isn't it, particularly when it comes to operational roles. As a number of Members said, a lot of new rolling stock has come online, so that not only lifts the standard of the service, but it allows greater frequency of service as well. And for the metro service, certainly, you want to get to a position where people just rock up to the platform and they know that if they don't jump on it now, there'll be another one coming behind it in 10 minutes. That is a game changer. When we get to that point, then that really is, hopefully, a game changer.

Peredur is right too, I think. It's easy to accept recommendations, not so easy always to deliver, and the risk or the problem has been historically that maybe Welsh Government has over-promised when it comes to Transport for Wales, but we're now getting to a point, I think, where we were hoping to get to much, much sooner. In relation to any formal influence we have on GBR and the UK financial investments et cetera, well, as it happens, the committee will be scrutinising Lord Hendy, who is the Minister of State at the Department for Transport, tomorrow. So, we'll certainly be putting some of these questions to him.

Rhys, an interesting contribution. I've been waiting for trains when I've been told that there's no driver available, but certainly that's something that we can pursue in our scrutiny of NRW—not NRW, Transport for Wales. But this is the point I wanted to make: we regularly have discussions about how more and more duties are being thrown at NRW, with maybe not always the corresponding level of resource to be able to deliver. There's a risk, I think—. We've talked about active travel, we know about the rail, the bus franchising, and that massive piece of work is coming down the line. We have to guard against a similar issue arising here. It is important, Carolyn, that people feel safe, and there were reports in the media today, weren't there, about how sexual offences on trains are up by a third since 2015, albeit on a UK level. It would be interesting to see what the figures are for Wales. So, that certainly—

Will you take an intervention?

I will, yes.

That actually demonstrates the value in Wales of where we've kept the guards on the trains, and they've got rid of them elsewhere. That was one of the biggest arguments about it: people feeling safe, feeling that there was someone there for them.

Yes, absolutely. And I know that Transport for Wales are very mindful of their responsibilities in that context.

I will reiterate the point made by the Counsel General regarding the new chair: we've already as a committee had positive engagement with Vernon Everitt, and we're very much looking forward to continue that. And it is for public good, not private profit, and we can say that proudly now in Wales.

So, there's a lot to do, and bus franchising is going to be huge. I think we saw that, didn't we, when we visited Transport for Greater Manchester recently. There's a lot to do, but I think the direction of travel is positive. I have to finish with this pun: I think it's fair to say that Transport for Wales now is on the right track.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Item 7 today is the Plaid Cymru debate on town-centre regeneration, and I call on Luke Fletcher to move the motion.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Today's debate is about our town centres, which in many ways reflect the story of Wales today. Walk through many of them and the picture is all too familiar: lacklustre footfall, which remains below pre-pandemic levels, vacant retail units, shuttered shopfronts, lost amenities and boarded-up windows. What were once the focal points of many urban centres have become symbols of economic decline. Retail closures have hit us hard in recent years and the consequences have rippled out. The same goes for bank closures. Between 2012 and 2022, branch numbers in Wales fell from 695 to 435, and that decline continues. Santander, Lloyds, Halifax—they're all abandoning our high streets.

Will you take an intervention there?

If it was anyone else, I'd say 'no', but for you, Sioned—. [Laughter.]

Thank you very much. I just wanted to come in very briefly on banks. The final bank in the Swansea valley, in Pontardawe, will close next month, NatWest is closing in Neath this month, and the banks are putting profit above generations of customers, but there aren't enough banking hubs available either. That is something within the gift of the UK Government—to increase the number. Do you think that we need to ask the Welsh Government to urge the UK Government to allow more of those banking hubs to be established to replace these banks?

Of course I would agree with that. There's another question on banks as well, and that is: what's happened to the community bank that the Government has been talking about for years? But I will return to that later in my contribution, but that's a very important point there.

I think it's important for us to remember that these really aren't isolated events. These are symptoms of a deeper economic fragility. When local services disappear, small businesses lose footfall, money flows out of our communities and local economies are eroded. This is the consequence of an underinvestment and a lack of strategic economic planning. Now, we've seen the upbeat press releases waxing lyrical about the newest iterations of regeneration funding from the local growth fund and the Pride in Place programme, but we have to be honest about what these represent. These schemes are only plugging holes, not rebuilding foundations. Now, Plaid Cymru has consistently argued for the return of full decision-making powers over post-EU funding to Wales, and until we see the details of the local growth fund, we reserve judgment about whether this truly represents a full restoration of those powers that Wales exercised over regional development funding prior to Brexit. But the idea that this replaces the money that once came from Europe is stretching the definition of that word. In reality, £547 million over three years, with as yet no clarity on where and how this is going to be spent, falls short to the tune of hundreds of millions of pounds, nowhere near enough to tackle decades of underinvestment and deep-rooted deprivation. For those playing bingo, the promise from Westminster was that we would receive not a penny less. But even this will leave us worse off. It simply doesn't measure up to the scale of the problem.

Turning to the Pride in Place programme, £2 million over 10 years provides some predictability for local authorities in terms of available funding, and the move, to be fair, from annual bidding cycles to multi-year allocations, is a good thing. I think where the certainty element of this begins to weaken is, firstly, we don't know if the funding will be indexed to inflation, or if there's some form of adjustment mechanism to account for increased costs over the 10-year span of the fund. Without it, the later years will fund less than the earlier ones.

We've also had so many examples of similar funds in the past being drip-fed, spread too thinly across multiple projects and schemes of work and, simply put, not being used in a particularly strategic way. The money often ends up being used for short-term cosmetic improvements, beautifying the high street rather than enabling the more substantial interventions. Yes, physical regeneration is important, but if everything else around it is missing, then we go around in circles.

Now, the Welsh Government has leveraged much larger sums through previous funds, and if these haven't delivered the outcomes promised, it's fair to ask, what can we realistically expect from these newest iterations? If the Welsh Government's current measures, as set out in their amendment—publishing position statements, launching retail action plans and launching funds to beautify the high streets—were effective, we'd already be seeing progress, but this has been on the agenda for over a decade, and we are still debating what to do.

I have selected amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government to move amendment 1, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt.

Move.

And I call on Joel James to move amendment 2, tabled in the name of Paul Davies.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'd like to move our amendment in the name of Paul Davies. If a farmer plants seeds in a field and those seeds fail to germinate and grow, would they be wise the following year to plant more seeds in the same field? What if those seeds, again, don't grow? Would the farmer be foolish if they planted seeds again and again and again in the same soil, without any thought or effort given to improving the nutrients in that soil? This analogy perfectly sums up the Plaid Cymru motion that we're debating today.

Most people in the real world, farmers included, know that you have to address the underlying reasons—the soil—before anything can grow and be sustained, and this is really the reality of the high streets in Wales. It doesn't simply matter how much is spent on regeneration projects, because these are simply seeds being planted in poor soil. The Pride in Place programme is just more money for seeds and not enough for soil, and this is clearly something Plaid and Welsh Labour fundamentally misunderstand.

You can rebuild town centres, invest millions in potted plants and new buildings and regeneration strategies, in the forlorn hope that this will suddenly bring back customers to spend their money in a shop. But without addressing the root causes as to why our high streets are failing, this won't achieve anything. The irony, Dirprwy Lywydd, is that most of our shops on the high street are perfectly capable of making a profit and staying open, but are continually hampered by the policies that are made here and that are also now being made by the new Labour Government in Westminster.

The systematic misunderstanding by Labour of how businesses operate has meant the economy in Wales is stagnant at very best—

Would you take an intervention?

Let me carry on a bit. Economic punishment by this Labour Government on our businesses is driving our high streets to extinction. They are charged some of the highest business rates in the United Kingdom, and now with the increased costs of national insurance and minimum wage, it means that they need to pass this on to the customers, who themselves are slowly being priced out of our high streets.

Plaid Cymru's financial fantasies, as we can see by this motion, offer no hope for high-street businesses. In their economic plan, they have said that the reason town and city centres are failing is because of the ownership gap, claiming that too few of Wales's businesses, assets and institutions are meaningfully Welsh owned, and too much profit is flowing out of Wales. But how would one know this? No data is collected on this whatsoever, for example.

Would you take an intervention?

Let me just carry on for a second. What we do know is that of all of the businesses in Wales, only 0.7 per cent have more than 250 employees, so it's hardly the case that multinationals, which Plaid are scapegoating, are ripping us off. You have cited the Preston model as some miracle solution that will turn around Wales's fortunes, but the reality is that there has never been any evidence of any dramatic economic turnaround. And the reason is simple: it's because it deters investment and there's a limit to what can be sourced locally. Ultimately, the reason why larger businesses, which Plaid hate, can operate is because they can substantially bring down the costs of goods by their higher buying and bulk purchasing power. Your motion mentions a preferential business rates multiplier for small and independent high-street retailers, including hospitality businesses. This is just fantasy to think that you can disproportionately increase the business rates of larger retailers to offset larger reductions for local businesses. This is what will happen: the very few larger retailers that will remain—and we have already seen several leave the high street recently—that you will target will just put up prices or just move everything online. It will deter them from investing and from creating jobs on our high streets, and even in our retail parks.

So, what would the Welsh Conservatives do to help the high street? Clearly, we would spend the money on rejuvenating the soil. We need to help businesses on the high street to be competitive again. We need them to be able to offer the customer service that customers do not experience with online shopping. We will scrap business rates for all small businesses, substantially improve access to free car parking that have been driven out of our town centres by Labour. We will improve our public transport provision and promote a mixed offer on our high street. This will not be some election slogan designed for leaflets or social media videos. Neither will it be some short-sighted and hate-filled redistribution of wealth from the few multinationals that we have in this country. This will be an offer to businesses that, when they start up, Dirprwy Lywydd, they won't be crippled by business rates, that they will be able to grow their business in the knowledge that they won't be punished for that growth.

You need to conclude now, please, Joel.

Last sentence. I urge Members here to see Plaid's motion for what it is, anti-business and anti-growth, and I would urge everyone here to support the Welsh Conservative amendment. Thank you.

Community gives people a sense of belonging. Where you live is your community and your community is where you feel you belong. Some people live in an area that may have very close community, where everyone knows each other, or, more often, know about each other. The hub of their community could be their church or chapel, community centre or their sports club. On being asked where I live, my first response is 'Morriston'. That is the community I belong to. And other people will identify with their own communities. People have a strong sense of attachment to buildings in their community. Far too many old buildings are left to deteriorate by owners who often live many miles away, sometimes outside Britain, sometimes, in a case I dealt with in my constituency, in Australia. The number of religious buildings, chapels and churches, the number of pubs, clubs and institutes has declined. You can see the decline coming with an ageing and reducing membership and attendance until eventually closure happens. A community right to buy for Wales would help protect the things that make our country and our local areas special, boost community ownership and place power back in the hands of the Welsh people by giving local communities the right of first refusal when vital community assets come up for sale. That is why Scotland already has got one and community ownership has grown faster there than anywhere else in the UK since the Community Empowerment (Scotland) Act 2015.

Communities who identify a need for ownership of land or buildings can apply to register a community interest in buying them. A successful application gives the community the first option to buy if the owner offers the land or building for sale. An application to register a community interest in land must show substantial development benefits in the land and community. It is not intended to preserve the status quo or to block any development; it’s there to help our communities. England is now getting one. The new Labour Government is preparing legislation as part of its imminent devolution Bill. Across the country, communities are being shut out as buildings are boarded up, destroyed or sold to developers and turned into spaces that fail to serve the needs of the local community. And I can take you around lots of chapels that have just been bought by developers and left. A community right to buy could change this by allowing communities the right to first refusal when spaces with significant community value come up for sale, such as empty shops, pubs, churches and chapels.

Will you give way?

Certainly, Mark.

Thank you. Are you aware that, under the Localism Act 2011, the community right to buy, supported by a community asset register, has been available to Wales now for many, many years? Despite our calls and our manifesto pledges to introduce it, do you regret that it hasn't been brought in previously?

I don't regret that it hasn't been brought in previously, because it's pointless looking backwards. All we can do is look forwards, and I really want to have the community right to buy out there so that communities have the opportunity to take over the buildings in their community. With Scotland having a community right to buy and England proposing one, Wales needs one. [Interruption.] Yes, certainly.

I think there's agreement here, Mike. I think that the biggest concern, though, that a lot of people have in the right-to-buy space is that we've been having this debate now for a decade or more, and the decision keeps getting pushed down the line. I think it was only a couple of months ago that we had from the Cabinet Secretary the announcement of a potential another consultation on community right to buy. So, surely, it comes to a point where we just go, 'Right, okay, Scotland has done it, England are moving on with it, let's just get on with it.'

I couldn't agree more. That is something that I'm asking for now. I think that we need to get it done. It's not a party-political issue, it's a community issue.

Every community has places that make them special. Where I live, rugby clubs are very important to the local community. In some other parts of the area football clubs are very important to the community, and if we had had this debate 50 years ago I'd have said chapels and churches are very important to the community; unfortunately, that's no longer true today.

After 14 years of economic vandalism under the Tories, we’ve all seen many of these types of buildings that we all care for bought and converted into flats, left and abandoned, the local high street blighted by vacant shops. Local ownership is a huge part of the solution, and the community right to buy could be a vital tool in making it happen. The community right to buy is not a solution to all empty and derelict buildings. Many have reached a stage where it's not economical to repair them and bring them back into community use. It can, however, stop other buildings from becoming derelict. Community ownership in Scotland has been a soaring success. The community right to buy is proven, popular and politically effective. We need to have it in Wales, and, to take on what Luke just said, we need to have it now.

Retail has changed and town and city centres have changed substantially over the last 50 years. Online purchasing has caused huge problems. It's not not having enough car parking, it's not not having enough buildings, it's the sheer cost of buying goods, when online, at one press, it's delivered to your house the next day.

Can I just finish by saying that Morriston, where I live, has a range of shops, from jewellers, shoe repairers, florists and gift shops to beauty salons and hairdressers, plus there are a number of coffee shops and eating options? Woodfield Street is going through an update, we've seen the What! shop take over the former Wilko building, we've seen the following new businesses open recently—darts, rugs, tv games consoles—and a replacement Indian takeaway. The renovation of Tabernacle—thank you, Welsh Government—and St John's Church—also thank you Welsh Government—is now complete. Bethania chapel has a revised planning application for flats and a commercial development on the ground floor, with space planned for the future, and Danbert House has now reached the stage where a design has been chosen, and work is continuing on the former Crown pub.

On town-centre retail, I say to the public: use it or lose it.

In our Valleys, our streets have witnessed some history: the time when people from far and wide flocked to Wales to work in the mines, the only time our Valleys have seen mass immigration. More and more, it's people leaving our towns now that's the problem. And our high streets have been shaped by the people who've lived there. Let's think of the Italian Bracchi cafes, a brilliant mingling of Welsh and Italian cultures, found in most Valleys towns, with their distinctive Bracchi ice cream, the flavour of which is like nothing on earth, as well as their pies that were warmed through the steam of the coffee machines. When I was growing up, I remember Bracchi cafes in Ystradmynach, in Nelson, in Bargoed—there were so many in Bargoed.

Some of them are open still, and we are right to be proud of them. But a lack of support from Governments in Cardiff and Westminster over years for our high streets has led to more and more of those cafes closing, and there is something being lost in our lifetimes that can't be got back, a link with our shared past, and the pattern repeats itself time and again. These buildings, as Luke has said, the buildings on our high streets, they tell the stories of our past—the miners' halls, the libraries, the hospitals and institutes built with miners' wages to show the greatness of their vision to the world and to God, built with their benevolence so that the community had places to go for concerts, for lessons, to read and to learn and to convalesce.

So many of our finest buildings in the Valleys were made by miners or established by their bounty, but so many of them have closed or face closure. Many are boarded up, beautiful buildings being left to their decline, and all those voices that have sung there, the moments in our history that have happened within their walls, echoes of orchestra and oratory—they're falling silent.

Our Valleys powered the world with our steam, our coal, our iron, our grit. Anywhere else in the world would fund these monuments, would give Government backing for their preservation. Why should we in the Valleys not be able to glorify their greatness? Blackwood Miners' Institute was only saved by the determination of local activists and campaigners. Llancaiach Fawr has not been so lucky, though the friends of Llancaiach Fawr are still doing everything they can.

We should remember too that the tradition of libraries in our Valleys was started, too, by the miners. In Caerphilly, the Labour council is determined to close 10 libraries. Their doors were meant to have closed in August, but a legal challenge has meant the council has been forced to reopen them for now. There is no guarantee that they will stay open. The Labour cabinet have made it clear it hopes they will still close these buildings. They've described the legal challenge as disappointing. Make no mistake, they in Caerphilly mean to close those libraries, with no thought of the windows onto other worlds that will close as a result, the doors in children's minds that will be shut down, the gap that will be left for older people who are lonely, for teenagers wanting a quiet space to do their homework, for knitting groups, local societies, all those people who congregate in these places as their cathedrals—the places the miners had dreamed would be built for their children. How short is the memory of the people who would close them? How inadequate is Government support to keep them open? Now, all of these spaces, they are not just buildings, they are meeting places, spaces meant to be shared by the community, spaces that have created the communities.

I guess we're all familiar with the challenges that our town and city centres face, the challenges of online shopping, out-of-centre development that's already in place, the cost-of-living crisis. The challenges are great. But I wouldn't sign up to the counsel of despair I think we've heard from the Welsh Conservatives here this afternoon, because a lot of good work is going on, and that has happened and can be built upon. In Newport, for example, Dirprwy Lywydd, we've seen substantial investment in partnership between Welsh Government, Newport City Council and other key partners to develop residential accommodation in the city centre, which is badly needed in terms of housing provision, and is adding to footfall, which is very valuable for those city centre businesses.

We've had a successful programme of events. Just last weekend, the Newport food festival took place, and there was a 66 per cent increase in footfall in the city centre on that weekend compared with the previous weekend. We have the new Corn Exchange as a music venue, alongside other existing venues, such as Le Pub, and, of course, the Riverfront theatre in Newport.

We've had the opening of new leisure and public services developments in the city centre, and a great success, really, in increasing the number of independent traders, which I think people do find very attractive, because it offers something different and individual compared with the usual chain operators. Of course, when you have those local businesses, the profits that they make are spent in the local economy, which is very important as well.

And we have really important developments in the offing in Newport. Coleg Gwent is going to relocate its out-of-centre campus into the centre, which will bring something like 2,000 new people—students, learners, staff—into the city centre on an almost daily basis. We are going to have a new city centre leisure centre with a state-of-the-art leisure pool and new learning facilities, which will also be very significant.

So, it's not all doom and gloom. The challenges are considerable, and, certainly in Newport, a lot more needs to be done. We all know, those of us that represent the area, how much it counts for local people. That local pride in the town and city centres, or lack of pride because of some of the challenges, is absolutely a massive issue. People really do want to feel proud of their town and city centres. People remember them when they were much stronger and much more attractive than they are currently. So, there is a lot yet to do. I absolutely recognise that, but I do believe that we've made significant progress.

There are important developments in the offing, and what I really want to see is a continuation of that partnership between Newport City Council, key partners and Welsh Government to continue that investment and to continue that progress, and, of course, to look at new ideas. Just in the news today, there was a lot of coverage of aims to bring health services into town and city centres in England to a much greater extent, which makes perfect sense, doesn't it, because those services then are more accessible, it deals with health inequalities and it also helps with the challenges of footfall. So, I'm sure that there's much else we can do, but we should recognise the progress that we have made and be intent on building upon that, not talking ourselves down and talking down the work that's already taking place, recognising progress made but ensuring that we build upon that and we do not, in any sense, rest on our laurels.

When we talk about town centre regeneration, as some Members have already said, we're not just talking about bricks and mortar, are we? It's not the odd bollard here and the odd pot plant there; we're talking about people, we're talking about community, about the life that flows through our high streets and makes our towns what they are. But too many of those small independent businesses—the butchers, the cafes, the local shops—they feel forgotten, they feel unloved, neglected by a system that seems to be working better for the big corporations on the edge of town than for the small family-run businesses at the heart of our communities.

Across north Wales, I hear the same story: small business owners tell me that they feel like they're fighting an uphill battle. For years, local authorities have rolled out the red carpet for out-of-town retail parks, approving developments that, sometimes, drain the life out of our high streets. That policy failure clearly has left deep scars. Even today, many of those big out-of-town retailers pay far less in business rates per square foot than the small shopkeepers trying to make a living in the town. That's unfair, it's unsustainable, and Plaid Cymru wants to put that right. So, we're calling for a rebalancing of the business rates system so that it finally works for small town centre traders, not against them. The multiplier should favour the independent shop on the high street, and not the multinational off the bypass.

And it doesn't stop there, of course. Too often, small traders feel like they're being treated as some sort of cash cow, rather than genuine partners. We see parking fees climbing higher and higher, enforcement getting stricter and the welcome mat sometimes replaced by a penalty notice, all while out-of-town retail parks offer free parking as standard. Well, how can our town centres compete on such uneven terms?

Let's be honest, it's time to show our high streets some love, frankly. We all know that the world has changed; yes, supermarkets and online shopping have reshaped how we spend our money, but that doesn't mean that the high street has had its day—far from it. Look at towns like Caernarfon and Conwy and Mold and Prestatyn—places that have actually reinvented themselves by offering something unique, an experience, because that's what today's town centre is all about. It's about connection, not just consumption; it's where you bump into a friend, where you pop into a shop for something you need, stop for a coffee or visit a hairdresser, solicitor or pharmacy. These service-based and professional businesses, often overlooked, are the steady heartbeat of our town centres. And add to that the creative and artisan businesses that then sometimes spring up around them—the galleries, the delis, the bakeries, the craft shops—and suddenly, you see the potential: people might come into town for one thing, but they'll stay for the experience. A haircut leads to a coffee, leads to buying something in a local shop, and that's the virtuous circle of a thriving town centre.

It's a pleasure to take part in this debate today, and I thank Plaid Cymru for tabling it. We should recognise that many of our high streets have, sadly, become very depressing places generally, as the motion outlines, with Wales having the second highest number of vacant shops in the UK. This problem, of course, is not limited to Wales, with most UK towns outside of London in a state of decay.

We must not forget about the COVID-19 pandemic, though, which was perhaps the most destructive force for our high streets, and the British high street has experienced a significant and ongoing decline since the COVID-19 pandemic began in early 2020. Recovery has been uneven and incomplete as of this month, with footfall, sales volumes and store numbers still lagging behind pre-2020 levels, unfortunately. Businesses are closing at the fastest rate in years. The latest figures show that Wales now has the lowest employment rate in the UK, at just 70.8 per cent, and economic inactivity remains the highest in Britain.

This so-called Pride in Place programme has failed to deliver the change communities were promised. So, £1.5 billion across 75 neighbourhoods across the UK might sound impressive, but when the highest award any community can receive is £20 million over a decade, that's a drop in the ocean. Short-change for hanging baskets and murals while our town centres become crime ridden, fall into disrepair and become more hostile to visitors, with traditional businesses slowly being replaced by unsightly phone repair shops, neon-signed vape stores and cash-only barbers. The Welsh Labour Government has made Wales one of the most unattractive places to run a business for many reasons.

One of the areas where town-centre decay is most evident is Rhyl, in my constituency, where Plaid Cymru Senedd Members will shortly be marching through the poorest ward in Wales, stoking separatist division and advocating for independence, which, according to the Secretary of State for Wales, would cost £21 billion. It beggars belief to see a party claiming to care about the regeneration of town centres whilst choosing to march in a community that would be amongst the first to suffer from the economic devastation caused by breaking up the United Kingdom.

Will you take an intervention?

And let's be clear, this is not a local movement rising from the streets of Rhyl; many of those taking part are being bused in from other parts of Wales. They are not coming to Rhyl to listen to local people, but to lecture them. They increasingly claim ownership of Welsh identity as though being Welsh depends on agreeing with their political world view, and they resent the deep and historic ties that communities like Rhyl have with the north-west of England—links that have brought jobs, tourism and opportunities for generations.

Gareth, will you take an intervention?

I won't, sorry, no. You had five minutes to speak, Llyr.

Towns like Rhyl need to see investment, and they need to be made attractive to businesses, bringing the culture back to the streets. But those who plan to go there to sow division are not welcome to speak for a town they neither know nor understand. Towns like Rhyl deserve regeneration, not rhetoric. It deserves investment, not ideology. And it deserves leaders who will bring people together, not drive them apart.

But it's difficult to begin the process of regeneration whilst under Keir Starmer's Labour Government. Britain has been plunged into a £50 billion black hole, with Rachel Reeves's tax hikes compounding the issue with desperate borrowing too. Add to that a planning system that is cumbersome, outdated and anti-enterprise, and local councils struggle to shape their high streets because the Welsh Government refuses to reform the rules that could promote mixed use, homes above shops, cultural spaces and modern retail.

That is why the Welsh Conservatives are calling for a new deal for Welsh high streets that's practical, ambitious, and community led. We want to scrap business rates for small businesses, giving traders a fair chance to survive; improve access to free parking so that people can actually visit their town centres again; amend the planning system; establish a seaside towns fund and a market towns fund; and work with the National Lottery community. This is a plan built on empowerment, not bureaucracy. Communities are crying out for quality, variety and pride, not the lowest common denominator.

Labour and Plaid Cymru have both had their chances to act, and they've both failed: Labour through complacency and central control, and Plaid through co-operation and abstention. Between them, they've hollowed out our economy and betrayed the small businesses that keep Wales working. So, let's turn over a new leaf. Let's back those who actually believe in enterprise and local pride, rather than initiatives that go nowhere and achieve nothing. Let's give Welsh towns the freedom to thrive again. Thank you very much.

I don't know how to follow that. The death of the high street has been a topic of discussion for many years in this place, and it was discussed in this Senedd back in 2019. Six years on, and we're still trying to turn the tide. We need to firstly ask how we got here. Well, Professor Dylan Jones-Evans said that the causes of high-street vacancy are absentee landlords, broken tax policies, outdated stock and policy gaps. But the solutions are also clear: visibility of ownership, affordable terms, modernised premises, financial support and local co-ordination.

As we've heard from John Griffiths this afternoon, work is being done by some councils, like Newport in my region, but the situation there has been much the same for the last decade. In 2015, the vacancy rate in the city was about 29.3 per cent, which made it one of the worst performers in the UK at that time. Fast forward a decade, and Newport now has the single highest vacancy rate at 19 per cent. While this is an improvement, it has clearly not kept pace with other areas. Not enough has been done by successive Labour Governments to stave off this issue, and that needs to change.

We also know that there are examples of best practice here in Wales. We've seen Bangor's local chamber of trade seeking to bring together landlords, local businesses and community stakeholders to change that. They have devised plans to develop small, manageable units as ideal spaces for independents. We know that our strategy towards the high street needs to be reimagined, and that we can look to our own communities to see how this could be done.

But the key question is: what is being done to ensure best practice is implemented? For me, one of the answers is evident: our communities need a voice. We must ensure that communities have a strong say in their local area. The Institute of Welsh Affairs have asserted that Welsh communities are the least empowered in Britain, with a right to buy existing in Scotland and a right to bid in England. We have no such thing in Wales. As we have mentioned, and as we've heard here in this debate, one of the main issues facing our high street is absentee landlords, and two of the solutions are visibility of ownership and local co-ordination. A community right to buy could be the difference for many high streets, improving local entrepreneurship, supporting local businesses, improving the town-centre economy, sense of community and local owned wealth. The benefits are huge, and we need to bring forward legislation to strengthen these powers for our towns, our communities, and our people.

And from what I've heard in this debate today, the call is clear to the Cabinet Secretary: we have to stop talking about it and get it done. Diolch.

[Inaudible.]—bit of a mess, really. It's the debate we had been having five years ago, 10 years ago. Similar themes emerge. We look for magic bullets, we look for free car parking, we look for abolishing business rates. It's a pretty barren scene, really. I did an exercise just over two and a half years ago with a series of experts and practitioners, where essentially we forced them all to be stuck in a room until we could come up with practical solutions. And, actually, the practical solutions are not many of the things that have been mentioned in the debate.

This is a gnarly and knotty problem, and at its heart is economics. The business model of the town centre that we all grew up with is dead, and how do we find a new one? And it’s worth remembering that two thirds of properties in town centres are not associated with retail. So, even though, clearly, the business model of retail has been enormously disrupted, first by supermarkets—enormously, a huge impact on the shops that we all remember—and also obviously by online shopping and, crucially, out-of-town shopping—. Now, all of those things—and you throw the COVID pandemic into the mix, which shut a number of businesses that haven't reopened—that’s where you have the fundamental cause of the problem that we're trying to grapple with, and I haven't heard much from anyone in this debate to address those fundamental economic issues, other than things like free car parking, which has been debated for years, and there's very little evidence to show its efficacy.

What we are seeing is out-of-town sheds with large amounts of land dedicated to cars that is untaxed, and we have an unlevel playing field. Simply making car parking in town centres free not only denudes the local authority of revenue, doesn't address the 25 per cent of people who don't have access to a car, but simply compounds the problem.

Flowing from that, we've seen the way that the planning system and businesses have put their investments. It is much cheaper for a business to build an out-of-town shed than it is to redevelop a town centre property. Then you have an incentive there. We see the volume house builders building large estates at edge-of-town developments, so people are driving to and from them. The houses and neighbourhoods around the town centres are becoming places where lower-income households live, and so the shops that remain in town centres tend to cater for them, which is then often not attracting in families who are now living on the edge of town and going to out-of-town retail developments.

Again, none of these are easily solved, but they can be addressed through co-ordination. Peredur Owen Griffiths mentioned Dylan Jones-Evans's work here. The co-ordination of efforts is critical. The work that Professor Karel Williams did in his report for the Welsh Government, 'Small Towns, Big Issues' by Foundational Economy Research, looked at Bangor, Haverfordwest and Bridgend and how some of these things can be improved.

If I may start with that final point from Lee Waters, our second call in the motion—the first one in the third point—is to ask for a comprehensive strategy for town centre regeneration, setting out a long-term vision for town centres. So, that strategic approach for the long term has to be there—a new vision, a new reimagining. I remember I had very productive discussions with you when you were Minister on this area, specifically around where flooding featured in the Transforming Towns programme, something that I would like to discuss during today's debate, because our town centres, our high streets, do matter, and we do need to find those long-term solutions.

As many of you know, I live in Pontypridd. My office is in Pontypridd on the high street. It's a town with a number of much-loved independent shops. Our market is much smaller but still thriving. Many are award-winning as well. In the past month, Tipsy Owl has won the 'best bar in Wales' award at the Welsh Hospitality Awards. Manjeera Indian Street Food won the title 'best street food in Wales' at the Food Awards Wales, so definitely worth a visit.

But it is a town centre that's struggling for so many different reasons, as we've heard already: boarded-up shops are common, banks lying empty, and so on. The footfall is significantly lower than what it used to be, apart from, of course, when you have things like the National Eisteddfod there. But it did show even then with the National Eisteddfod how important it was to have excellent public transport links, and the difference that made to have frequent, reliable trains, and how the traffic flowed so swiftly through Pontypridd during that week, when people had been so concerned otherwise.

As I mentioned, the additional challenge in towns like Pontypridd that have frequent flooding is how do they make themselves resilient. Mill Street in Pontypridd is an example cited often by the Welsh Government in saying about one coffee shop that reopened quickly after storm Bert last year because of investment. But there were many other businesses that were empty for much longer. Because one business wasn't flooded as bad in that flood doesn't mean that the situation is solved.

The frustration for me often is that there may be grants available for individual businesses, but we don't see a whole-town approach taken, and how all businesses become resilient. As one business told me, 'Yes, I can have floodgates, flood prevention measures on my business, but unless the property next door to me has those, or the one the other side, then I'm still going to have damage, and, actually, the water's just going to get trapped in my shop.' So, we need to think of that resilience and think if the money that we are spending is the best way. But rules and regulations at the moment stop us from taking that whole-town approach.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government, Jayne Bryant.

Diolch, Deputy Llywydd. I welcome the opportunity to respond to the debate today. I won't be able to respond to all the contributions, but I think it shows, the amount of people who have contributed today, just how much everybody across all parties cares about our town centres.

Our town centres are not just economic units on a spreadsheet, they are the beating heart of our communities. They're where stories are shared, where small businesses take their first steps, and where local pride lives and breathes. But let's be honest, though, the challenges are real. We know what they are, and many people have said that again today. But it's not just that the data says that, it's Mrs Jones in Abertillery travelling miles for basic banking, or young people in Bangor looking at boarded-up shop fronts and wondering if there's a future there. But here's the difference: we're not wringing our hands, we're acting.

Through Transforming Towns, we've delivered more than £100 million since 2022, with another £57 million on the way. That's funding that's already creating mixed-use spaces, green infrastructure, and active travel links, breathing life back into our high streets. We've set up the empty property enforcement fund, helping councils bring long-term vacant buildings back into use, turning liabilities into local assets. Soon, I'll be publishing our new empty property handbook, a practical made-in-Wales guide to help communities take control of their own spaces.

We've responded to the banking closures by convening a second Banking in Welsh Communities event and supporting the roll-out of banking hubs, with 11 now open. Mark.

I was just wondering what consideration you've given since the publication of the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee report on town centres in January 2024, which made a series of recommendations to the Welsh Government, many of which were accepted, and included reports on visits to Mold, Wrexham and Swansea.

And Morriston.

And Morriston as well. Sorry. Thank you.

Diolch, Mark. Obviously, as we've talked about, there's been much research and much information that's come out from Senedd committees and others around this, and it is something that people deeply care about. I'll come on to some of the things that we are doing. But in terms of our banking hubs, we've got 11 now open, including in Abertillery, and two more on the way. These hubs are helping to restore access to cash and banking services, particularly for older people and those in rural areas.

Will you take an intervention?

Yes.

The UK Government has said that they've got plans to see the opening of 350 banking hubs by the end of this parliamentary term. We've seen 380 banks close in Wales over the last decade. So, it's nowhere near enough, is it? Would you speak to UK Government colleagues to see if we can increase that number and get more banking hubs in Wales?

I think that's something we definitely need to see, and are keen to see. As I said, we are seeing those opening, which is really important for, as I say, older people and those who live in rural areas.

We note the UK Government's Pride in Place programme and the investment that it brings to Wales. However, we have always been clear that financial assistance powers should be abolished and our position on this hasn't changed. We're working with local authorities to ensure the funding complements rather than duplicates our own programmes.

We're also finalising arrangements for the return of post-EU funding, which will see over £500 million invested into Wales, and crucially, decision-making powers rightly returned to the Welsh Government. Nobody understands a community better than the people who live there. That's why local authorities must be at the heart of shaping and delivering the programme.

Deputy Llywydd, I want to take this opportunity to reaffirm the Welsh Government's commitment to supporting our town centres through a co-ordinated, long-term and place-based approach, tackling, as Lee Waters says, what is a very gnarly issue. In response to these challenges and in line with the motion's call for action, I just want to highlight the steps the Welsh Government is taking to support our town centres and the retail sector.

We're delivering the actions set out in the retail action plan, which focuses on people, place and resilience—addressing crime, skills and technological change. The retail forum is a strong example of social partnership working effectively with the private sector in Wales, the partnership that John Griffiths talked about.

We continue to provide substantial support through our rates relief scheme—£335 million this year, including £78 million for retail, leisure and hospitality businesses—and this builds on £1 billion of relief since 2020. We're looking at what more we can do to lower rates for small and medium-sized retailers, recognising the unique challenges faced by bricks-and-mortar businesses, and to rebalance the system in their favour.

We have embedded 'town centre first' principles in our national planning frameworks, as Lee Waters says. Town centres must be the starting point for decisions on the location of public services and facilities. Colleges—and we heard plans in Newport from John Griffiths, with Coleg Gwent—health hubs and other services are increasingly being located in town centres, boosting footfall and supporting local businesses, including in Bangor high street.

We published a town centre position statement, which sets out our national framework for action, and I'd like to thank Lee Waters for all his work in this area. Retail decline, changing consumer habits and the loss of key services require co-ordinated cross-sector responses. And we've established an oversight board to drive delivery of the actions, including improving footfall, repurposing vacant buildings and supporting local economies.

You've gone past the time.

—the end of time. Sorry.

So, the challenges are tough, but we're proving what's possible when government at all levels works with businesses and communities. So, together we're bringing pride, purpose and prosperity back to the heart of our towns. Diolch.

I call on Luke Fletcher to reply to the debate.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I appreciated the contributions of all Members in this debate. I think that despite Lee Waters saying that perhaps it wasn't the best debate he's heard, I think there were some valuable contributions throughout that debate. I particularly enjoyed the contributions from the Conservatives. I mean, we had an accusation that people were coming up to Rhyl to lecture them, but, of course, when we tried to make interventions, that wasn't going to happen.

Would you take an intervention on that, then?

Of course.

Do you share my disappointment at the rather condescending comments from the Member for the Vale of Clwyd towards the independence rally that's going to be held in Rhyl this Saturday—1 p.m. the march starts, by the way—because that single event, which will bring, four, five, six, seven thousand visitors into Rhyl town centre, will do more for local businesses in one day than the Member for the Vale of Clwyd has done in five years?

Come off it. What a load of nonsense. An absolute load of nonsense.

You would think that increased footfall would be something that the Conservatives would want, but I mean, if you just look at the offer that they put on the table, I think it's very much been a situation where they've opened the cupboard up on the third floor or wherever they are in this building, took an old document out, blew the dust off it, and went, 'Yes, that's good enough.' Nothing new at all in the contributions.

And I'll come to Joel, because there was a particularly interesting part of his contribution. I think, firstly, based on his contribution, the Conservative position is quite clear. They're pro-small business, so long as, of course, it doesn't affect bigger businesses, and, of course, completely comfortable with an extractive economy. Joel, I mean, you posed the question, on which, of course, I tried to make an invention, and you didn't want to know about it: 'How could you work out that there's an ownership problem on the high streets?' Well, firstly, I point to a local example: Bridgend. The majority of the town—Tom Giffard will know—is owned by one person. That isn't healthy for a local economy.

And I've gone, actually, the extra mile for you, Joel. I've looked on YouTube—to make it as easy as possible for you: Bloomberg Originals, How Private Equity Ate Britain. It is commonly accepted now amongst economists that asset managers are depriving our high streets of investment, taking out profit from our local economies. So, this isn't something new. This isn't something new, this is something that is widely accepted. So, I'm glad he read the economy strategy, but I would also refer him to the bibliography in the back, because there's a lot in there that I think would be very beneficial to Joel in his contributions in the future.

Heledd mentioned, of course—

Will you take an intervention? Nobody lets me intervene.

Yes, Mike, go on.

I understand what you say on large businesses et cetera, but my constituents and yours would be devastated if we lost Marks & Spencer from the centre of Swansea.

We're levelling the playing field here, Mike, and the reality is that they're leaving the high street as it is now, because there is no cohesive strategy on the table when it comes to regenerating the high street. I'll come to some of the policies that I think would be very helpful, actually, on that front, in just a moment, but I just wanted to point out a contribution that Heledd made, which is that landlords are very tough to get hold of, sometimes. I can say, in my office in Bridgend, I can't get a response out of the landlord when it comes to the office, and I'm a Member of the Senedd. I can get a response out of them, though, when they're looking for their rent. And very quickly they'll go to threatening to send out the bailiffs if we don't pay that rent—[Interruption.] Deputy Presiding Officer.

I'd like to hear the contribution from the Member who's closing the debate, and therefore I ask the Members on the opposition benches to please let him do so, so I can hear it.

Thanks, Dirprwy Lywydd. This is relevant, I think, actually, to the contribution made by the Cabinet Secretary on the vacant property strategy. Now, I can support a vacant property strategy, but if that means then we're going to subsidise private investments from people who have no stake or don't simply care about our high streets, then I think that's something that we shouldn't support. I actually think we should be asking ourselves the question: what is the best use of taxpayers' money when it comes to regenerating the high street? I don't think it's subsidising the private investments of individuals. I think, actually, it would be far better spent by local authorities buying out these properties, then renting them out themselves and getting the money from that themselves, so that we then make sure that the profitability is a public matter and not simply a private issue.

Now, Llyr Gruffydd was very right in pointing to out-of-town-centre development. Again, to use the example of Bridgend, you can peg the decline of the high street in Bridgend to when McArthurGlen opened. That is an accepted fact in Bridgend, yet we still then have these same conversations about making it easier for people to get about in their car and go to these out-of-town shopping centres, making it cheaper for businesses, when we know that that is what's killing our high streets. So, we really need to rebalance the issue there. We haven't done it, we really need to. The Cab Sec mentioned business rates, lowering them, or keeping them, with preferential rates for retail. I actually think it would be better to start with hospitality. There are plenty of reports out there showing that if you invigorate the hospitality sector, that increases the footfall, which then leads to greater footfall for retail—make a day out of it, make an experience for people. They'll come into the town centres. Everyone benefits.

But what I'm quite disappointed not to hear about is some of the stuff that we've heard now for the last Senedd term and beyond: banking. Sioned Williams raised banking as one of the biggest issues. We are still waiting for Banc Cambria. What has been the hold-up on Banc Cambria? This is something that would really help, not just in terms of ensuring that there are bank branches on our high streets, but also keeping some of that profit within our local communities as well, making sure that those investments are being made on a Welsh level in a Welsh context. So, I'm disappointed that we did not hear any progress on Banc Cambria. I hope we'll see something in the near future because our communities really need to see that come off the ground.

Right to buy: again, I reiterate what I said—we are so behind the curve on this. Scotland already has it. England's already progressing it. Last I heard from the Government around it, there was another consultation on whether or not we were going to go down the route of right to buy. We've had plenty of consultations, we've got plenty of evidence, we just need to get on with it now. We really do need to get on with it. If we're not going to do it, then, again, we're going to be in this vicious cycle where we're making these investments to private entities, and we'll see none of the returns for our communities.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes. I will defer voting under this item until voting time.

And that brings us to voting time. Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I will proceed directly to voting time.

We will vote on item 7 only this evening—the Plaid Cymru debate on town-centre regeneration. I call for a vote on the motion without amendment, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan. If the proposal is not agreed, we will vote on the amendments tabled to the motion. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour nine, 14 abstentions and 24 against. Therefore, the motion without amendment is not agreed.

I call for a vote now on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 24, no abstentions, 23 against. Therefore, amendment 1 is agreed.

I now call for a vote on the motion as amended.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 24, no abstentions, 23 against. And therefore the motion as amended is agreed. Thank you very much.

Next we have the short debate, and we will turn now to the short debate. I call on Altaf Hussain to speak.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I have agreed to give a minute of my time to Janet, Mike and James.

As chair of the cross-party group on stroke, I'm constantly reminded about the importance of early intervention in improving the outcomes for stroke survivors. At our last meeting, we heard from a stroke survivor, Fran, about her experience of having a stroke. From not recognising the fact that she was experiencing a stroke to having to have her husband drive her to hospital, Fran told us that had she recognised the signs and symptoms of stroke, she would have sought help sooner, got treatment sooner and recovered sooner. As it stands, Fran and so many people like her receive treatment too late and are left with lifelong disabilities. This is why the Act FAST/Cam NESA campaigns are so vital.

Now, at this point, some of you might be experiencing déjà vu because, two years ago, Huw held a very similar short debate following a CPG meeting where Fran told her story. We decided to retell Fran’s story last week because nothing has changed, hence here I am today begging for an ad campaign.

Most of us here are old enough to remember the tv ads telling us that a drooping face, the inability to lift both arms and slurred speech signal that it is time to dial 999. I say 'old enough to remember' because the campaigns have not run in Wales since 2018. Across Offa's Dyke, Public Health England have continued to run the stroke awareness adverts on a regular basis, and 91 per cent of surveyed adults in England said that they would call 999 if they saw stroke symptoms. Thanks to this, people are getting to hospital fast and getting treatment fast. Sadly, here in Wales, around half of people having a stroke are making their own way to hospital, risking delays and barriers to their life-saving treatment. If we compare the average time between the onset of symptoms to arrival at hospital between us and our nearest neighbours, the results couldn’t be more stark. Thanks to Public Health England’s awareness campaigns, most stroke patients arrive at hospital around four hours after the start of a stroke. In Wales, where we have not seen an Act FAST campaign for seven years, the average arrival time is six hours and 41 minutes. This is clear evidence of why such awareness campaigns are vital, evidence that even Healthcare Inspectorate Wales acknowledge.

Two years ago, Healthcare Inspectorate Wales recommended that we run targeted stroke awareness campaigns alongside a national Act FAST campaign in their 'National Review of Patient Flow: a journey through the stroke pathway'. The Stroke Association are working with relevant partners to try to make this happen, including potentially bidding for funding to support the production and delivery of these campaigns. Unfortunately, funding is not the only barrier. There seems to be a lack of will for it to happen from Public Health Wales. Officials have raised questions over the need for the campaign and the effectiveness of it. There has not been the same level of scrutiny of other public health campaigns, such as the annual flu campaign, and yet there is plenty of evidence to show that an ACT FAST campaign is highly effective. There is huge clinical support and clinical need for a renewed Welsh awareness campaign.

One of the UK’s leading stroke consultants said of a renewed Act FAST campaign,

'From the clinician’s perspective I would absolutely support this and the need for renewed focus. Public awareness is an absolute must for prevention and early presentation leading to timely intervention. The evidence for this is overwhelming of course.'

The stroke landscape has changed since the Act FAST campaign was last run in 2018, in terms of where we are with stroke in Wales as well as the recommendations in HIW's report on patient flow. We have also seen massive changes in how people access information over the past seven years. A renewed Act FAST campaign would have to target multiple platforms. It is absolutely possible. If we can have Transport for Wales adverts on Amazon Prime, why can't we have a Welsh-medium Cam NESA campaign on Disney+ or Netflix? We have an opportunity now to think how this campaign could work for Wales and Welsh people if we were to redesign it for them now and for the future, but first we have to overcome the inertia in the Welsh Government. Ministerial responses to requests for stroke awareness campaigns tend to come back saying, 'We need to stop so many people having strokes in the first place.' I agree prevention is key, but many people will still continue to have strokes. If we prevent half of all strokes occurring, that will still leave nearly 4,000 people having a stroke, transient ischemic attack or stroke mimic in Wales each year. Everyone deserves the best possible chance of survival and recovery, regardless of how it was caused or where they live. The FAST campaign supports prevention, messaging by educating the public about the warning signs, which can lead to earlier detection and management of underlying risk factors. It also ensures timely treatment that reduces the likelihood of recurrent strokes and long-term disability.

Diolch, Altaf, and thank you for bringing this very important issue here. We all know somebody in our own families, friends, where, when they have a stroke, it's very key that the sooner they get some treatment, that person has a much better outcome in terms of ongoing and less chance of having another stroke.

I have some particular concerns in my own constituency, because, of late—and I realise this is the Welsh Ambulance Services University NHS Trust, and I've raised it with them only this week—a constituent in her late 80s phoned up and the tele-responders actually almost tried to contradict her when she said, 'I'm having a stroke. My face is still okay, but I am in the middle of having a stroke,' and it was confirmed afterwards that she did, in fact, have a stroke. The ambulance service told her that it would be five hours at least, and luckily—she couldn't scramble any family together at that time—she managed to get there just before the five hours. I find that now so terrible because, some years ago, we used to have adverts on tv telling us to act fast and how you need this treatment immediately, and now it's just not a good look for Wales when the patients themselves are being told it's going to be at least five hours. What's happened to the one-hour golden rule? Thanks.

Can I thank Altaf for giving me a minute in this debate and, perhaps more importantly, for raising this issue again? A stroke can happen to anyone at any time. Relative youth does not stop it happening. A neighbour in her early 30s had one, and whilst, outwardly, she looks fully recovered, she gets tired far more quickly than she did pre stroke.

I want to commend the work done in stroke groups and thank the volunteers who run these groups. There are two stroke groups in Swansea East. One meets in the Deer's Leap in Morriston and the other in the local community centre. They provide a weekly opportunity to meet others who have had a stroke and also close family members of those who have had a stroke. Stroke support groups are a safe and supportive space to try things again, to learn more about stroke and self-care, and to build confidence as you rebuild your life after a stroke. When you attend, you will see that people make a very good recovery and continue with their lives.

Thank you, Altaf, for raising this important issue. Again, I'd like to just say 'thank you' to those who run and support these groups. I and those who attend them appreciate it.

I'd like also to thank Altaf for bringing this important debate forward because we all know that strokes are going to get worse across our society due to the obesity epidemic that is going across our country. One of the ways that we can reduce the number of people having strokes in the future is by getting people fitter, getting people healthier, so they're not having strokes in the future. I'd like to know from the Cabinet Secretary what efforts the Government is making to try and reduce obesity, especially among children, because we don't want to see our children getting obese, because that means they're going to be having strokes a lot younger and that's not something that any of us want to see across Wales.

And I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Services to reply to the debate—Jeremy Miles.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Every year, stroke changes the lives of thousands of people. Acting on the symptoms of stroke and seeking treatment quickly is crucial. Losing time can lead to the loss of brain cells, and that's why it's so important that everyone in Wales knows how to identify the signs and symptoms of stroke and to phone 999 immediately. Stroke is the biggest killer but three in Wales, but it's also one of the main causes of disability.

The FAST campaign, or 'Cam NESA' in Welsh, as we heard, has managed to raise awareness of stroke symptoms. Following the last campaign back in 2023, Public Health Wales evaluation showed that more people now recognised the FAST acronym and understood the importance of phoning 999 when they saw signs of stroke.

Today, we've heard that no such campaign exists throughout the country. However, that ignores the materials and messages that raise awareness of stroke symptoms across Wales in surgeries and in hospital waiting rooms, in community pharmacies and on the phone messages of many surgeries. Many partners are considering all of the opportunities to run a national campaign sustainably. Among them are Public Health Wales, the Stroke Association and NHS Wales Performance and Improvement. I welcome these efforts very much; working together is the best way of delivering this.

Dirprwy Lywydd, my officials are engaged in these discussions, and I've asked them to provide me with advice about the practicalities and options for running FAST or Cam NESA here in Wales again and to consider if the Welsh Government can provide support.

Stroke is a medical emergency. Calling 999 is the fastest and safest route to specialist stroke care. As soon as you dial 999, you'll speak to someone who starts an assessment process by providing you with life-saving advice. When someone with suspected stroke, or the person with them, calls 999, they are prioritised in the new orange category. This recognises stroke as a medical emergency requiring the quickest possible ambulance conveyance to hospital. The new clinical model, of which the new categorisation of calls ensures callers receive the right response tailored to their symptoms, is an important part. A huge amount of work is also under way to improve access to stroke services and to improve people's outcomes and quality of life following a stroke. This is guided by the clear expectation that we set out in our stroke quality statement. Health boards are expected to use the stroke quality statement as the basis for planning and delivering services for their populations with support from NHS Wales Performance and Improvement and the stroke implementation network.

On the technological front, Wales has led the way, actually, in adopting AI across all health boards with stroke centres. The Brainomix AI platform speeds up accurate diagnosis and treatment, helping to save lives and improve outcomes. We are also testing pre-hospital video triage, which allows real-time communication between ambulance crews and hospital stroke specialists. The early results are promising, showing improved flow of communication and access to treatment.

Wales was the first country to use both AI and pre-hospital video triage together to improve the patient experience, speed and accuracy of diagnosis from the ambulance journey. Our ambition is to digitally connect the whole stroke pathway. We must continue to drive these and more improvements, ensuring that they translate into positive outcomes for everyone who experiences a stroke in Wales. Our aim remains for people to have the lowest possible risk of having a stroke, and, when it does occur, to have the best chance of surviving and returning to independence as quickly as possible.

Looking ahead, we will publish a revised stroke quality statement in January 2026, maintaining an emphasis on timely and equitable access to 24/7 lifesaving treatment. We also remain committed to the transformation of stroke services and moving to a regional comprehensive stroke centre model—[Interruption.] Yes.

You talk about equitable access, and talking about access for the constituents in the north of my county, with the situation at Bronglais Hospital where they're talking about downgrading the service there and removing it from the hospital—. You talk about equitable access: how is that equitable for the people who live in the north of my constituency, in the north of Powys?

I'm sure that what we all want to see for our constituents is the best possible health outcomes. All the evidence we have globally tells us that the best way of delivering that is by regionalising stroke provision—that applies in Wales as it does in every part of the world. So, there is, unfortunately, a tension, and I acknowledge that, where stroke centres may be further away from residents. But the evidence tells us—the clinical evidence tells us—that, by delivering in that model, with local rehab and local services, that's the best way of ensuring that your constituents and mine survive stroke in the way that we all want to see. On Bronglais in particular, as the Member will know very well, the health board is considering its options at the moment and no decision has been taken, and we look forward to hearing what that decision will be in due course.

Dirprwy Lywydd, in closing, we remain committed to the transformation of stroke services and, as I just said to the Member, to moving to a regional, comprehensive stroke centre model. This will ensure that people have access to the best possible specialist care to treat the immediate stroke, and is widely supported by clinicians. It will help to save lives and dramatically improve outcomes.

World Stroke Day on 29 October will focus this year on driving public awareness of stroke symptoms and the need to act FAST. Dirprwy Lywydd, stroke is a priority and we will maintain our focus on delivery and implementation, working collaboratively to ensure that we optimise access to stroke treatment and to care in order to achieve the best possible outcomes for people right across Wales.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

And thank you to Altaf Hussain as well. Before I close today's business, both of you are welcome to come along to the Neath Port Talbot Stroke Group in Briton Ferry, who have received the King's Award for Voluntary Service as well. It's in your region; it's next door to you.

That brings today's proceedings to a close.