Plenary

The next item is the questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice and Trefnydd, and the first question is from Lesley Griffiths.

Thank you very much, Lesley Griffiths. We're having active discussions with the UK Government to progress the devolution of youth justice, starting with strategic oversight, partnership and governance arrangements, and funding of youth justice services. I will be meeting with the UK Minister for youth justice, Jake Richards MP, in the very near future.

Thank you very much for that update, and it's good to hear that some progress has been made, but I don't think it's enough. Meanwhile, we're seeing many problems within the youth justice system. We have a backlog of cases. We have concerns around access to justice, for example.

Here in Wales, as you very well know, we've taken a very different, proactive approach to England, and we've seen a significant reduction in the number of first-time entrants into the youth justice system over the last decade or so. So, for me, it's all about delivery now, and ensuring youth justice is devolved to Wales must be a priority. So, please, Cabinet Secretary, can you ensure you continue to press the UK Government to do this?

Thank you very much, Lesley Griffiths. You're absolutely right. As a result of the work that we've done—pioneering work, child-first work, we've done—in Wales with our youth justice blueprint, we have seen a sharp and sustained decline in first-time entrants over the past decade. That's a powerful reflection of the commitment, resilience and compassion of our youth justice professionals, who work across Wales tirelessly to improve outcomes for children in conflict with the law.

As a result of this, youth justice services are now engaging with significantly fewer children subject to statutory court orders, with most of their efforts focused on prevention and diversionary interventions, which really makes a difference. It's again rooted in a child-first evidence base. I think it is just important to say, and sharing this with the UK Government, that we've introduced a unified prevention framework to guide youth justice activity. So, we're absolutely ready for devolution. It can bring greater stability to justice services, and the current devolved services are key to improving outcomes to young people in the justice system.

Currently, we are seeing—certainly in the constituency of Aberconwy—frequent reports in the press of young people practising anti-social behaviour. Earlier this year, I held a public meeting. We'd had a situation where 17 windows in brand-new shelters on the promenade had been kicked in, there was a fire at our local hospital, thefts from hotels—all committed by young people. There were 35,600 proven offences committed by children in 2023-24, with an average of 430 children in custody at any one time during the year. It's just not acceptable. I've spoken to youth prevention services, I've spoken to the Crown Prosecution Service. I don't support any further devolution to Wales of these powers or anything else, but I do feel that we should be working more constructively with the UK Government and our police to address these issues, particularly the root causes. The Welsh Government does seem solely focused on devolving more powers rather than managing the ones that you are currently responsible for. So, does the Cabinet Secretary agree with me that the best way to tackle this behaviour is through collaboration, better working with all the agencies—which I'm told is happening, but we're not seeing that on the ground—rather than pushing further devolution for its own sake? Diolch.

Well, I'm sure, Janet Finch-Saunders, that you would agree—and I think that you mentioned the word 'prevention'—that the way to address these issues is through prevention. Prevention is key—early intervention, engaging with young people and ensuring that young people have fulfilling, crime-free lives. And I think that, for the first time, we have a prevention framework—which is looked at, I have to say, with much envy and respect, not just in Wales but across the border—that brings together all of the evidence on what works to prevent offending into one place. It has a single, joined-up view of how we prevent young people from getting involved in criminal behaviour and in that low-level—although it has an impact, I appreciate, on people's lives and communities—that low-level, lower level anti-social behaviour before it becomes criminal behaviour. So, it is something where we're proud of, in fact, working over the last five years with the UK Government, the Ministry of Justice, His Majesty's Prison and Probation Service. Policing in Wales has actually driven forward our youth justice blueprint, which has made such a difference to our youth justice services. And that is the way forward in terms of, as I said, the importance of that devolution can actually bring stability to justice services in Wales.

Diolch yn fawr, Peredur Owen Griffiths. Our regional cohesion teams continue to work with partners within South Wales East to foster good relations, advance equality of opportunity and tackle community tensions and victimisation. This includes acting as conduits between communities and public bodies and ensuring cohesion is considered in local authority plans and policies.

Thank you for that response.

As you're aware, in South Wales East, I represent some of the most diverse communities in the country, places where ethnic minority families have lived for generations and made such a huge contribution to our communities. But, recently, people of colour have been telling me that they're facing more and more racial abuse. It's hard to ignore that the rise seems to coincide with the growing prominence of Reform, who are spreading division and hatred at every opportunity. We all saw the mother and son in the Caerphilly by-election debate bravely calling out the Reform candidate, and now they're backing Lindsay Whittle and Plaid Cymru to stop them. So, can I ask: what is the Government actually doing to tackle the rise in racial abuse, and how is it making our communities safer and more welcoming for everyone, especially those from ethnic minority backgrounds?

Thank you for that follow-on question, which I do welcome. I welcome the question, because this is something that we've also—. Last week, I did a statement on Hate Hurts Wales, and we know that growing polarisation, and that includes racism, the rise of racism in our communities, has such a harmful effect. I'm so glad that you recognise the strengths and contributions of the people in your diverse community. And I will say that some of us, across three political parties in this Chamber, actually attended a very powerful event on Friday, in Caerphilly, which was organised by the Ukrainian community. And I think it was very striking that Yuliia Bond said, 'We are not here to take, we are here to give', having fled Putin, the horrors of Putin, and the destruction of her home and community. So, this is where we have to bring all our efforts together, our 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan', our £1.6 million community cohesion programme, and respond to the cross-party Equality and Social Justice Committee's report on social cohesion. As I said, I'm pleased to say again that Gaynor Legall CBE has agreed to chair an expert group, which will have wide representation, to address these issues.

Cabinet Secretary, it was good to see you at the sanctuary that works for Wales event earlier, organised by Sanctuary Coalition Cymru and the Welsh Refugee Council, and they are rightly concerned at the spreading of misinformation and hate and how poisonous and divisive that is for our communities. I'm sure you would support me, Cabinet Secretary, in supporting them and their asks of MSs and political leaders that we need honest, evidence-based conversations, that we commit to using accurate, respectful and responsible language, and that we champion Welsh values of decency and respect, framing sanctuary as a strength that enriches our communities.

Thank you very much, John Griffiths. I was pleased to join the event today. It was open to all Members, and I know they're having a follow-on event. We can't do enough of sharing the strength of the message. I think what was really important about their event—and you've repeated the points that they made—is that they're saying 'sanctuary that works for Wales'. It is quite right that sanctuary works for Wales in terms of the contribution and the values of Wales. I also think, in terms of the Welsh Refugee Council, which we are very proud to fund to help with the delivery of that integration, which is so important, as I've said, of those who come and have fled conflict and war, who want to contribute, also, I think they made a really good point about their work: it's about stability for people and strength for Wales, and that's what the nation of sanctuary, of course, seeks to deliver, but it's a sanctuary that works for Wales.

Questions now from the party spokespeople, and, first of all, the Welsh Conservatives spokesperson, Altaf Hussain.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Cabinet Secretary, do you believe a man should be able to access women-only groups and spaces?

Well, I recognise there's a debate later on about this issue. I don't know where this is coming from in terms of your question. I fear you've been given this question, Altaf Hussain. It's not something from your party. What is very important is that we now await the UK Government's consideration of a draft code of practice in terms of the Equality and Human Rights Commission and that what we do is address this with compassion and respect and consider, as a result of the consideration of that draft code of practice, what this means for us in Wales. But I'm very happy at this point in time to stand by the statement I made following the Supreme Court's judgment earlier this year.

Thank you for that answer, Cabinet Secretary. Thankfully, the law of the land disagrees. In April, the Supreme Court made it clear that Governments were misinterpreting the Equality Act 2010. In their ruling, the Supreme Court justices concluded that, read fairly and in context, the provisions relating to single-sex services can only be interpreted by their reference to biological sex. This means that a man, regardless of whether or not he holds a gender recognition certificate, cannot be allowed access to women-only spaces. Cabinet Secretary, the law is clear, but the guidance issued by the Welsh Government is not. Rather than hiding behind the excuses that you are awaiting the Equality and Human Rights Commission guidance, which is disingenuous, as that guidance is for smaller organisations and businesses, will you now commit to issuing guidance to all public bodies in Wales, making it clear that single-sex spaces cannot be used by members of the opposite sex, regardless of whether they hold a GRC?

Well, you clearly didn't listen to my answer to your first question. I stand by my statement. I stand by the statement that I made following the Supreme Court ruling. As I said, I stand by that statement because we await now a draft code of practice, which is being considered by the UK Government. Of course, we stand by the law and we will consider the impact of it, but, at this point in time, I stand by my statement.

And can I just say, yet again, that this is about respecting people, isn't it? It's about respecting all those who are affected by this Supreme Court judgment—respecting them. I have met with all people who've been affected by this. I've met with a number of groups from the trans community, who are extremely concerned about it. Have you seen—? Did you look at the hate crime statistics last week? Did you look at them, in terms of the rise in trans hate crime? But also, I stand by the fact that I stand here as someone who's passionately committed to tackling violence against women. I hope that will be the priority of your agenda when we come to White Ribbon Month, because that is where women in this society are so affected by appalling abuse and violence, which sadly is endemic in society.

I'm grateful, Cabinet Secretary. Of course, your LGBTQ+ action plan also muddies the water. As it is currently drafted, the plan states that trans women are women, but the law disagrees. Lesbian groups feel that the plan prioritises the needs of the trans community over their needs and rights. Cabinet Secretary, the law as it stands states that a man cannot be a lesbian. However, lesbian organisations are being denied funding and access to Pride events because they wish to exclude trans women. Why are one group's rights being allowed to supersede the rights of another group? Do you accept that it is wrong to take two unrelated issues, namely sexual orientation and gender identity, and lump them together? Do you agree that it is time to rip up the LGBTQ+ action plan? Nobody is suggesting that men can't identify as women or vice versa. But don't you agree with the law that this should not be granting them automatic access to single-sex spaces? Thank you.

I think I've probably answered all the points of your questions, Altaf Hussain. As I said, I met with everyone affected or has views about the Supreme Court decision. I think that was important that I did meet people who were concerned. I've mentioned the trans community, but I've met other groups who also had written to me, to ask if they could meet me, who are concerned also in terms of the issues that you raised. As Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, it is my duty to meet everyone and hear all their points of views. But can I just say I am very proud that we are committed to making Wales the most LGBTQ+ friendly nation in Europe?

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Sioned Williams.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. As we approach another budget, disabled people in Wales are understandably feeling anxious about the Chancellor's plans, given the way the support they depend on has been targeted for cuts over the last year by the UK Government. I'm sure you'd agree that disabled people in Wales deserve to have their voices heard in any proposed change in policy that would directly affect their lives. That's why it's deeply concerning that Disability Wales haven't been invited to take part in the Timms review, the UK Government-led review of the personal independence payment assessment.

Disability Wales, as the national umbrella body for disabled people's organisations in Wales, has made repeated attempts to engage constructively with the UK Government over recent months, but they've still been excluded from the process. Even after the Senedd's Equality and Social Justice Committee, on which I sit, raised this directly with Stephen Timms, they were still not offered a seat at the table. The response they've received from the UK Government was not only dismissive, but disrespectful. I think this exclusion highlights a wider pattern, where decisions about Wales are being made without Wales. So, Cabinet Secretary, can you outline what steps the Welsh Government will take to ensure that Welsh disabled people's organisations are properly represented in decisions made about their lives in Westminster, now and in the future?

Well, thank you very much for that question, Sioned Williams. And, of course, we look to ensure that disabled people are properly represented, in terms of the independent review, the review that’s been undertaken by the Minister, Sir Stephen Timms, in terms of the review of personal independence payments. And, in fact, I was very pleased this morning to address the Disability Wales annual general meeting, which was held. The theme of that AGM was 'Envisaging an inclusive, equitable and barrier-free society in Wales'. We were able to share progress of our work, through the disability rights taskforce, leading to our disabled people’s rights plan, which I’m going to publish, certainly before Christmas. And I’ve got an oral statement coming before the Senedd as well, in terms of the UN day on the rights of disabled people.

I was very pleased to actually attend a disability equality committee forum meeting at the beginning of September, and I invited Sir Stephen Timms. He came to the meeting, and disabled people, and myself, very strongly called for Welsh representation on the independent review, on the review of personal independence payments, and also that there should be co-production in the way that he takes forward this review. I have also written to him to ask him to engage with Disability Wales, following that forum. And, of course, Disability Wales is our lead organisation—umbrella organisation—who are funded by the Welsh Government, and who take forward this all-important work.

Diolch. Disabled People Against Cuts Cymru have called for a truly fully independent review of PIP, democratically led by disabled people and their organisations. And their call is particularly pointed in Wales, given the repeated failures of the UK Government’s 'Pathways to Work' consultation process, which have yet to be acknowledged. DPAC Cymru have also highlighted the need for this review to be inclusive and accessible, with wide consultation across Wales, and for practical measures, such as accessibility support, transport reimbursement, and involvement of Welsh disabled people's organisations.

So, what steps will the Welsh Government take to ensure disabled people and their organisations are meaningfully involved in shaping policy? And what lessons are learned from the repeated failures of UK Government consultations? What’s your response to Disabled People Against Cuts Cymru’s calls for a democratically led, truly independent review of PIP in Wales?

I think I’ve answered the points, in that I've made representations with disabled people at a meeting with Minister Timms, who is leading the review of personal independence payments. I think the point that we made to him at that disability equality forum was that you can learn from Wales. We have developed, through the disability taskforce, a way of working, co-production and engaging with disabled people with lived experience of what it is like to be disabled by society. That’s the social model of disability, which we’ve signed up to. And to stress that if they follow—the UK Government, and Minister Timms—and understand the experience that we have, it will help with the review that’s going to be undertaken. So, I’m very pleased that there are people calling for the strengthened lived experience of disabled people to influence this review.

Also, just to say that we are working to ensure that our employability programmes in Wales, where we have responsibility, actually are reflecting the needs and rights of disabled people. We are working with the UK Government on their trailblazer initiatives in Blaenau Gwent, Denbighshire and Neath Port Talbot. And, also, we’re looking at ways in which we can reform the Disability Confident scheme. It's crucial that we work with the UK Government to review the scheme.

I spoke about this today at the Disability Wales annual general meeting, and I was very pleased to meet our disabled people’s employment champions, only a couple of days ago, who are themselves working across Wales, with employers—and they are disabled people in the lead—to make sure that we can enable our disabled people to access work and return to work, with the backing of not just the Welsh Government and local government, but also the UK Government.

Thank you. Creating those opportunities in terms of work are vital, of course, because we know that the employment gap in terms of disabled people in Wales is greater than it is anywhere else in the UK. And people have to be able to reach to those opportunities, don't they?

Disabled people are often disproportionately affected by changes to public transport, yet their voices are frequently under-represented in consultations. Public transport is vital for so many disabled people, enabling them to access work or education or health care, and social activities. But when services are cut, when staff aren't trained, or when access is inconsistent, that has a direct impact on the independence and well-being of disabled people.

In the cross-party group on learning disability last week, we heard directly from people with learning disabilities about how their lives had been impacted by cuts to bus services and the lack of understanding. And Mencap has raised specific concerns about the recent bus consultation, which closed in the middle of this month. So, will the Welsh Government review the consultation responses received specifically from disabled people, and what mitigations will be put in place if their participation was low?

Well, diolch yn fawr, that's a really important follow-up question as well. And indeed, I was very pleased to be listening in to the questions that were put to the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning, in the place of the Cabinet Secretary for transport, because there were a lot of excellent questions about transport accessibility for disabled people, very much following the points that you've made, Sioned. And just for us to remember that the Cabinet Secretary for transport did give an oral statement on 'Travel for all', which is about making sure that access and inclusion are at the heart of everything we do, to make everyone feel safe and welcomed when travelling in Wales. And that has to include disabled people in terms of access, particularly access to work.

Many points were made this afternoon in the earlier question session. But it is important, and I said this this morning to Disability Wales's AGM: I did report back that Transport for Wales and the actions that they're taking to support the delivery of 'Travel for all' include clear accessibility requirements for new bus fleets, technical accessibility guidance for bus infrastructure, and reviews and development of public-facing staff training, based on the social model of disability. We have to have a complete change of attitude, don't we, a cultural change, and then a physical, operational change as well, in terms of access to travel for all people in Wales?

And I'll just finally say on these important questions you've asked me: our goal, as I said today, is to challenge ableism to ensure better access to healthcare, transport and education. And, of course, you've referenced the important meeting that I had with you and Mark Isherwood, as the chairs of the cross-party groups, about people with learning disabilities, and the fact that this is all being addressed. We had a themed work stream on travel, as you know, in our disabled people's rights plan, and I'll be able to report on that and what that means in very short course.

Thank you, Carolyn Thomas. I'm having ongoing discussions with the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales on this topic. We are committed to ensuring that disabled people with the greatest need can access on-street parking concessions and that the process of obtaining a badge is as fair and as efficient as possible.

Thank you for your response. Two of the reasons often referred to for resisting lifelong blue badges are concerns about fraud and costs. However, I want to highlight that requiring disabled people to reapply every three years is inefficient and unfair, often causing unnecessary stress for applicants and their carers. Asking individuals with a permanent condition to repeatedly prove this and provide the same evidence may be seen as indirect discrimination and a failure to make reasonable adjustments under the Equality Act 2010. With this in mind, how are the Equality Act and the public sector equality duty being applied within the current blue badge system, given that both the process itself and findings from the Stronger Together for Additional Needs and Disabilities North Wales blue badge survey highlight significant concerns around fairness, dignity and social justice?

Thank you very much, Carolyn Thomas. Can I start by thanking you for your advocacy and support for blue badge groups, particularly as you've drawn my attention on a number of occasions, and in this Senedd, to blue badge groups, like the group you support in north Wales—STAND North Wales? As a result of this, you've helped to focus the work of the Welsh Government to continue to encourage local authorities and the WLGA to make the process of reapplying for a blue badge more streamlined, raising awareness of shared lived experiences and further work on supporting applicants. I think this is important. This means that applicants who permanently meet the eligibility criteria can be awarded a badge on a not-for-reassessment basis. And this means that when they are reapplying after three years they will not need to provide any additional evidence from healthcare professionals to support their application; the only evidence needed is proof of identity, residency and a photograph. We regard these as reasonable and proportionate requirements to protect the integrity and robustness of the blue badge scheme, but also to ensure that disabled people are able to access the blue badge scheme without too much bureaucracy standing in the way.

Earlier this month, in his latest response to my correspondence on behalf of a constituent regarding the blue badge scheme, the transport Secretary explained, once again, that local authorities administer the scheme using guidance and a toolkit issued by the Welsh Government. However, it is inconsistent top-down local authority interpretation of this guidance that leads repeatedly to disabled applicants being denied a new or renewed blue badge. The Welsh Government's continued refusal to deliver a life award for those with lifelong non-improving conditions defies logic and challenges the Welsh Government's claim to champion the social model of disability. What action will you therefore take to ensure that proper attention is given to the findings from the stakeholder survey conducted this summer by STAND North Wales CIC, which received 636 responses from 20 counties in Wales in just 25 days, and which found, and I quote:

'The current Blue Badge system in Wales creates barriers rather than removing them, contradicting the goals of disability rights legislation'?

It recommended changes, including a life award, to better serve disabled individuals and carers across Wales and fulfil the Welsh Government's legal and moral responsibilities. I'd be grateful to hear whether you will give that attention.

Thank you very much, Mark Isherwood. I certainly will be giving this attention alongside the Cabinet Secretary for transport. You will know that the Welsh Government accepted all the recommendations from the internal research programme's review of the blue badge scheme in Wales. That was published on 21 May. The review aimed to assess the robustness of the scheme and explore whether eligibility criteria could be extended, particularly for individuals with lifelong conditions. The crucial point, I think, as you will know, is that the Cabinet Secretary has convened an expert group, working in partnership with local authorities and the Welsh Local Government Association, to explore all options to better share data and cut down the burden facing people with a real need for the accessible parking that the blue badge can bring.

Thank you for your question.Excellent progress has been made to deliver the commitments within my portfolio. I'm particularly pleased with the positive results we're delivering with our income maximisation projects in Wales, with our single advice fund services reaching people in most need, and our Welsh benefits charter aspirations being delivered.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for that answer. In relation to income, one of the key priorities that the Government has chosen to deliver in this Senedd term is the basic income pilot for care leavers. Will we have a detailed breakdown of the effectiveness of that scheme before the end of this Senedd term, so that we can understand whether that investment that the Government chose to make has been as effective as the Government promoted at the time?

Thank you for that question, because the basic income for care leavers in Wales pilot was the most exciting project, giving financial stability to a generation of young people leaving care who face very unique challenges. We did choose care-experienced young people as the cohort for the pilot because of this. Delivery, as you asked in the question—and I thank you for that—of the basic income for care leavers in Wales formally concluded on 20 June this year, with over 600 care-experienced young people benefiting from this direct investment in them and their futures. Some individuals will continue to receive their final payments until next month on account of later enrolment to the scheme. The uptake of the pilot at 97 per cent far exceeded our original expectations, significantly higher than any of the other opt-in basic income schemes worldwide. We're committed to continuing to work with our partners to help support care leavers in Wales successfully transition to independent living. We'll use the findings of the independent evaluation—of course, that's what's important, isn't it—of the pilot, which has been undertaken by leading researchers across the UK, currently at midpoint, to inform our provision of support for care leavers in Wales, and the evaluation will continue into 2027. So, thank you for giving me the opportunity to report on this very important pilot in Wales.

Diolch yn fawr, Llyr Gruffydd. This winter, we're improving the energy efficiency of homes and providing heating crisis support and funding for warm and welcoming community spaces. I will also continue to urge Ofgem and energy providers to support vulnerable customers.

Thank you for your response. We know that the UK Government has announced that more people of pensionable age are due to receive some winter fuel payments this coming winter, but the scale of the issue is huge, isn't it, and it affects all age groups, not just pensioners? The Warm Home Discount Scheme announcement is welcome as well, but, again, many households won't be eligible for that. Meanwhile, 340,000 households in Wales, or one in four, are living in fuel poverty, including over 60,000 in severe fuel poverty. Given that north Wales has among the highest energy costs in Britain, as well as some of the oldest and most energy inefficient housing stock in Wales, can I ask what specific additional measures you may be considering to protect households, particularly in north Wales, from the most severe effects of fuel poverty? Will you commit to strengthening insulation and heating support that particularly targets remote and rural areas, which very often feel that they're struggling the most?

Diolch yn fawr, Llyr Gruffydd. These are really important questions, following up on the statement I made on winter preparedness, because, as we reach those colder days and weeks, we need to keep people warm this winter. It is true, as you said, that our latest fuel poverty estimates show that 25 per cent of households were in fuel poverty in October 2024—deeply concerning figures, reflecting the unprecedented rise in energy costs and cost-of-living crisis over recent years. This will be concerning in terms of energy bills for households across Wales, but particularly I refer to north Wales in terms of those circumstances. You know that our free Nest advice services and our 'Claim what's yours' network are there for people struggling to keep their homes warm. I was very pleased to meet last week the chief executive of the Fuel Bank Foundation, which is making a huge difference in terms of reaching out to people in Wales. This is a Wales-only initiative. As you know, we're putting £6.9 million into the Fuel Bank Foundation. What's important is that it's not just the provision of fuel vouchers for homes with pre-payment meters, which is important for all people across the whole of Wales, but also deliveries of oil or gas for those not connected to the mains gas network, which, of course, is really important for people in rural areas. Added to that, of course, we do have the discretionary assistance fund, which also provides support for people off grid, as well. So, we will do what we can to support people and, of course, I do continually raise these issues with Ofgem, with the UK Government, calling for a social tariff, trying to call for reform in terms of the way households have to respond to these energy costs.

On the same note, actually—and you've answered lots of the points—I think it's key that, in a rural area like mine, there are many cash-poor elderly people living in quite large or old, solid-walled residences that they've lived in for many years. They can't afford to get insulation; they need insulation, yet they can't access or don't meet the criteria to access all the schemes that are currently on offer. So, again, I would encourage the Government to look at that group of people who don't always know what is on offer to them to make it clear so that they do not have to choose between eating and heating this winter.

Thank you very much, Peter Fox. I didn't respond to Llyr Gruffydd's mention of the importance, now, of the winter fuel payment. Of course, it's going to reach many of your households, with the reinstatement of that, but also the extension of the Warm Homes discount, which will directly support many households struggling to pay their bills in Wales. And just to say, in terms of extending the Warm Homes discount, it ensures that all bill payers receiving means-tested benefits are now eligible for the £150 electricity bill rebate, and 110,000 Welsh households will receive this payment for the first time.

Diolch yn fawr, Rhun. We are continuing to support families in Wales, targeting support at those who need it most to mitigate the pressures of the increased cost of living through delivering the Welsh benefits charter by helping people access their entitlements, and investing over £7 billion to reduce costs and help keep money in people’s pockets.

Thank you for that response. We're reminded today of the increasing pressures on the money in people's pockets as the Office for National Statistics announce the inflation rate for September—it's better than expected, truth be told, but it's still almost double the target. What families in Anglesey often tell me is that one of the greatest pressures on them is childcare and the costs attached to that. The Cabinet Secretary will be aware of Plaid Cymru's plans, in that we would introduce, in Government, the most generous childcare programme anywhere, and certainly the most generous we've ever had in Wales, which could be worth as much as £30,000 to families in their children's early years. We need to do this for many reasons: it's a tool against poverty, it's a means of giving the best possible start in life to a child, and it enables parents to return to work. But does the Cabinet Secretary agree with me that this can be a very important tool, too, in trying to tackle the cost-of-living crisis that so many families are now facing?

Diolch yn fawr, Rhun ap Iorwerth. Yes, we must do everything we can to support the families in your constituency and across Wales in terms of the pressures on household finance. Clearly, this is about providing direct financial support for children through free school meals, the school essentials grant and educational maintenance allowance, as well as benefits to families. But it is also important that childcare provides that support. Just to say, in terms of our childcare offer for Wales, in 2023-24, over 21,200 children benefited from the childcare offer for Wales, and, with the pressures families are facing, it is important that we are investing over £150 million a year in providing parents with funded childcare. It should be affordable, available and accessible to parents who work. But also, of course, we are investing, through our Flying Start, in free childcare, which, of course, is extending now to all two-year-olds across Wales.

Thank you, Jenny Rathbone. The residential women’s centre remains a key priority for the Welsh Government as it will improve the lives of women in Wales. The centre will be a real asset for women in Wales, providing therapeutic and rehabilitative services as part of a trauma-informed approach. The building and planning permission are confirmed.

Thank you. I'm sure we all look forward to the progress that's about to be made. Julie Morgan and I saw this fantastic play called A Visit at the Sherman Theatre a couple of weeks ago, and it has also been a sell-out in Swansea and in Merthyr; the final performance is in Aberystwyth this Friday. It really is a powerful play, which captures the impact on children of sending their mums to prison. I hope you'll congratulate Papertrail, in association with Clean Break, and Siân Owen for creating such a compelling reason for stopping sending women to prison for non-violent offences. To do this, we need to have alternative sentences for women who break the law. Why is the UK Government dragging its feet on developing the Swansea residential centre, which received planning permission in August 2023?

Thank you very much, Jenny Rathbone, and I'm so sad and regretful that I wasn't able to see that play, A Visit—Siân Owen's very powerful play. I hope it can go beyond Aberystwyth, as I can't get to that last performance. I think it was a poignant reminder, as we know, of why non-custodial sentences must be available to Welsh women to maintain family ties. You'll know that we are funding the visiting programme so that children can keep in touch with their parents—their mothers. But it's such a powerful way to make the clear case for our residential women's centre for England and Wales. We will be piloting it for England and Wales, and we need to take this forward.

I'm grateful for your question today, because we understand the importance of women having contact with their families and remaining with their families, and there are many women in the justice system across the border in England. There is an all-Wales women in justice board—the UK Government has established a national women in justice board. I look forward to the next meeting, and it will provide me with the opportunity again to stress the importance of opening that residential women's centre in Wales. We've got the planning and we've got the building, and we must just get on with it. I'm very grateful that you've raised this again, because this is, actually, accelerating the transformation of services for women in Wales who are at risk of entering the criminal justice system.

Thank you for that question, Luke Fletcher. I'm pleased that the Welsh Government’s collaboration with the UK Government resulted in the recent Ministry of Justice release of specific prison data for Wales. Officials are continuing efforts to identify and secure further Wales-specific data for the justice system.

Diolch am yr ateb. I think a lot of that credit should be given to the years of work by Dr Rob Jones and the Wales Governance Centre. As a result of that work, we now have, as you've outlined, for the first time, routinely published Wales-only prison data from the Ministry of Justice. It's an important milestone, but it only represents a partial fulfilment of one of the key recommendations made by the Thomas commission. Crucial information has been excluded by the Ministry of Justice, including data on parental imprisonment, deaths in custody and the number of Welsh-speaking prisoners. Without this, we cannot fully understand the impact of imprisonment on families and the safety and dignity of those in custody, especially important as we've seen yet again another death in HMP Parc. So, my question to the Cabinet Secretary is this: what now? How does the Welsh Government intend to act on this new data, and what steps will it take to ensure that the remaining, excluded data is published so that we can build a more complete picture of the prison system here in Wales?

Thank you very much, Luke Fletcher, for that question. Can I start by saying that we are very concerned to hear about the recent death of an inmate at Parc prison? Thank you for drawing attention to this today, and we send our condolences to those affected. Of course, we know that the operational running of prisons is reserved, but we are liaising with the UK Government and partners to ensure that action is being taken following the death. The Prisons and Probation Ombudsman will investigate, although at this stage there don't appear to be any suspicious circumstances surrounding the death, and the coroner has been informed.

But it is important that we work closely with HM Prison and Probation Service on those areas we have responsibility for—health, social care and education—in terms of our prison estate. It is important that we work together, particularly in response to this latest sad and recent death. It is very closely linked to what we can do in terms of our understanding, our knowledge and our responsibilities in relation to justice.

I also welcome, as I've said, the publication of this first annual release of Welsh justice data. It does help us understand the impact we're making on what are now key shared priorities in the justice system. I'm grateful you drew attention to the Thomas commission, because it showed significant gaps in justice data for Wales. We've consistently called for the UK Government to publish data that is disaggregated for Wales, which helps us understand that specific data—and you've identified other areas that we need to take forward—just to see how justice services are working in Wales and the impact it has on devolved services.

I also thank the Wales Governance Centre. They've played a pivotal role—Dr Rob Jones, of course—in helping to strengthen the evidence base and support greater transparency around justice data in Wales. I've always valued their factfile publications. They've shown the importance of Wales-specific data and the value this can bring to public life. We'll continue to work closely with the Ministry of Justice to identify other data that could be disaggregated for Wales. I'm shortly hoping to meet with Dr Rob Jones to discuss those further developments that can take place, now we've got the first step in terms of the all-important provision of justice data—the starting point. But it is very welcome.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

Item 3 on our agenda is questions to the Senedd Commission. Questions 1 and 2 will be answered by the Llywydd. Question 1, James Evans.

The Senedd Commission has established a contract with local Welsh suppliers to sustainably dispose of any electrical equipment that can no longer be used within the Senedd.

Thank you for that answer, Presiding Officer. After the end of this Senedd term, we're going to see a lot of surplus ICT equipment, phones, cameras, gimbals, a lot of that surplus equipment, which has been paid for by taxpayers' money via the Commission. What I would like to see is that being offered to new Members of the Senedd, so we don't have to keep buying new things over and over again. I think that would be a far better use of taxpayers' money, and I think it would actually show that we're more green and we don't keep buying new things all the time.

I can assure you that we don't keep buying new things all the time unless they're necessary. At the end of the sixth Senedd, there will be an assessment of the equipment that is no longer needed by Members. Some of it will be at the end of its usable life anyway, and that will be disposed of, as I said, with a local contractor and recycled in terms of being broken down to its component parts and those reused and recycled.

The assessment will probably also show that there is equipment that can be reused. It will need to be wiped clean of all data that is on it, but it can be reused. That assessment will happen. It's not all new stuff for all new Members, I can assure you of that. We're just going through scrutiny on our budget for the next financial year, and I can assure you that we are very keen to make sure that value for the taxpayer is in everything that we do in preparing for our seventh Senedd.

Following its review last year, the Senedd Commission decided earlier this year, first of all, to increase by 50 per cent the travel subsidy budget available to schools participating in full education visits to the Senedd from £1 per mile to £1.50 per mile. Also, all groups will be able to claim the mileage subsidy, including those within a 10-mile radius, which is unlike the situation at present. Also, a priority booking process will provide priority to groups with higher proportions of pupils eligible for free school meals. This will come into force in the next academic year.

Thank you very much for that response, Llywydd, and it's good to see that there are changes afoot. I had raised concerns earlier this year, because I was given to understand that there were some schools that now chose to go to Westminster rather than the Senedd because the subsidy is far more generous there. Did the review show that cost was a factor, and are you confident that this change will mean that schools don't choose Westminster over the Senedd? Clearly, it's good that they get an opportunity to see as many places as possible, but I was certainly concerned about that. We know that the cost of coaches is very high, but have there also been discussions with Transport for Wales to look at how we can ensure that there are alternative ways for as many learners as possible to access the Senedd? Because we all know the sessions by our education services are of a very high quality and are very important, too, in ensuring that young people do come to understand their democracy and their rights as our bosses here in the Senedd.

The offer for schools to visit the Senedd is very useful for schools, and is very popular among those schools. As we reviewed the subsidy regime for travel costs we made a comparison with the Scottish Parliament and Westminster, as you mentioned. The Scottish Parliament pays nothing to schools in terms of supporting them to visit that Parliament. The offer is generous from the Westminster Parliament. It's £3.50 per mile compared with the £1.50 that we will offer next year. That increase in itself raises the budget from £20,000 to £30,000. That's the cost for the Commission next year, and the Commission's decision was that to treble the budget for that, which would compare with the Westminster subsidy, would be too great a step at present. Therefore, what we're doing is we're increasing it, yes, and accepting the fact that the costs facing schools are very challenging for many of them, and also accepting the fact that even those costs are difficult for those schools within a 10-mile radius of the Senedd area as well. So we've taken a step in the right direction, perhaps not perhaps as far as you want us to take, Heledd Fychan, but I do hope that it will be used extensively by schools that have visited the Senedd annually, as some do, and some schools in Wales who haven't visited us at all, possibly. So we need to ensure that all of the schools are aware of the opportunities and the subsidies available to them.

Question 3 will be answered by Joyce Watson and asked by Jenny Rathbone.

I thank you, Jenny, for the question. British Sign Language interpretation is made available for First Minister’s questions each Tuesday, and is provided to the Senedd through the broadcasting services contract at a fixed annual cost. The service is also available upon request for other Plenary items, with each request subject to an additional charge. The current annual cost of providing BSL interpretation for First Minister’s questions is approximately £19,000.

Thank you for that. I'm sure you as Commissioners will be aware that Stage 1 of the British Sign Language (Wales) Bill is completing its process in the Equality and Social Justice Committee. I wanted to explore with you whether—. One of the major issues that we've identified from witnesses is the scarcity of BSL interpreters. Coincidentally, there were two of them acting as prison officers in A Visit. They had non-speaking parts but they provided BSL interpretation for anybody who was watching the play—amazing. But you can see how it is going to raise expectations, if we pass this Bill in this Senedd, that many more of our Plenary sessions—or, in particular, committee sessions like the ones at Stage 1 we've just been holding—will need BSL interpretation. Given the scarcity of these people at the moment, what consideration has the Commission given to sponsoring the training of interpreters, rather than be competing against those who are providing NHS appointment interpreters?

I thank you for that. As you say, BSL interpretation is really demanding and interpreters will need regular breaks during sessions. So, for a five to six-hour Plenary session, at least two interpreters would be required to provide seamless coverage without any break in proceedings. An upgrade to our studio where the interpreter is filmed would be required to provide seamless swap-over of interpreters, and we're in the process of compiling that particular cost. Accurate costs would be subject to formal quotes, discussions with interpreters and the Wales Council for Deaf People and contractual discussions with our broadcast contractor.

But on your wider question about the scarcity of interpreters, you're absolutely right. As a body that very much advocates and takes seriously equal opportunities for all, we are definitely alive to the issue and working on it. In terms of the Senedd actually training their own interpreters, I would have to come back to you on that, but my knowledge is that we're not doing that. When you add in the bilingualism, you will have a further challenge.

It will, obviously, be for the next Senedd to commission services, but this Senedd is absolutely dedicated towards providing equal access, and it is about access. This is the language of choice for individuals. It is their gateway into our world, so we're very much wanting to deliver it. It's the mechanisms now that will have to be thought through.

Thank you, both.

No topical questions have been accepted today.

We will move to item 5, the 90-second statements, and I call on Heledd Fychan.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Legend, icon, seren, idol—these are just some of the words that have been used to describe Jess Fishlock, after she recently announced that she will be retiring from international football this coming Saturday, after she plays her final match in the Cymru shirt against Australia. She made her debut for Wales in the under-19 team at 16 years of age, before making her senior debut in 2006, and obviously has been an integral member of the team, achieving a record 165 international caps—166 after Saturday—and scoring a record 48 goals for Wales, which of course could also be higher after Saturday.

She was the first Welsh player, male or female, to reach 100 caps in 2017 and 150 caps in 2024. She was also the first female player to ever score a goal at a major tournament at the UEFA Women's Euro earlier this year, becoming the oldest goal scorer in European championship history. There's a whole host of other accolades, including being named Wales player of the year five times, playing club football in nine countries, winning a number of titles, awarded an MBE for services to football and the LGBTQ+ community in 2018.

Since her debut, she's seen immeasurable change, saying herself that the difference is 'night and day', adding:

'That was the point of my journey, to make sure that we would be in a better place by the time I left.'

Well, there can be no doubt that she has certainly succeeded. Jess Fishlock is not only an inspiration to women and girls, but to our nation as a whole. The GOAT—greatest of all time—without a doubt, and she's firmly earned her place in the history books.

Thank you, Jess, for everything.

Yes, indeed. Thank you, Jess Fishlock.

Item 6 is next, and before we begin, I just want to inform Members that I have a particular interest in this petition, as it does cover the stroke services at Bronglais in my constituency, and I have shared my views on this with the health board. But I will chair this session impartially and listen with interest to what everyone has to say. Thank you too to the petitioners for introducing the petition to the Senedd, allowing this debate to take place this afternoon.

With those few words, I will invite the Chair of the Petitions Committee to move the motion on 'Protect full stroke services at Bronglais hospital; prevent downgrade to Treat and Transfer'. The Chair, Carolyn Thomas.

Diolch, Llywydd. On behalf of the Petitions Committee, thank you for the opportunity to introduce this debate.

This petition opened in June and quickly achieved over 10,000 signatures. The campaigners, Protect Bronglais Services, were keen to see it fast-tracked for debate, particularly as final decisions by the health board are expected this autumn. So, I thank the Cabinet Secretary for his timely response and the Business Committee for agreeing to schedule it today.

Closing after four months, with almost 18,000 signatures from across mid Wales, the committee notes that, in this Senedd, only petitions on 20 mph, cervical cancer screening, GP services and banning greyhound racing have collected more signatures. The petition was submitted by Bryony Davies and reads: 'Protect full stroke services at Bronglais Hospital; prevent downgrade to Treat and Transfer'.

'Hywel Dda University Health Board's consultation proposes removing Bronglais Hospital’s full stroke service, forcing patients from Ceredigion, Powys, and South Meirionnydd into risky, long-distance transfers to hospitals in Llanelli or Haverfordwest. We urge the Senedd and Welsh Government to intervene immediately, insisting HDdUHB fully assesses these impacts and commits to maintaining Bronglais as a stroke rehabilitation unit, protecting vital health services in Mid Wales.

'The consultation proposes downgrading Bronglais’ stroke unit to "Treat & Transfer" model forcing patients on unsafe 90 min to 2hr journeys to Llanelli or Haverfordwest.

'There is no evidence to address risks of these transfers given rural geography, ageing populations & poor transport.

'Family support, crucial for recovery, will be impossible due to distances, harming outcomes.

'Bronglais consistently scores higher in stroke audits than it’s HDdUHB counterparts.

'HDdUHB admits significant staffing shortfalls & uncertain funding, making these changes unsafe & unrealistic.

'Bronglais is the only District General Hospital in a 60–100 mile radius (on non-motorways) serving areas far beyond HDdUHB’s formal boundaries & into South Meirionnydd & Powys.

'The plans in the consultation compromise principles of equitable access to healthcare, disproportionately disadvantaging Mid Wales residents.

'We want the Senedd to ensure fair, equitable & local stroke services in Mid Wales.'

The health board's clinical services plan presents two options for Bronglais to become a treat and transfer facility, with stroke patients moving on to either Prince Philip or Withybush for ongoing specialist care. The plan was consulted on between May and August, and the board is currently reviewing responses. On 6 October the committee also considered two other petitions about health service provision in Mid and West Wales, raising awareness of a crisis at Glangwili and a weekend opening at the minor injuries unit in Cardigan. With regard to the petition we are debating today, the committee noted that Bronglais scores relatively well in UK-wide assessment of stroke care services. It scores a 'B' alongside Withybush, whereas Prince Philip and Glangwili score a 'C'. The petitioners ask why, in this case, is it not being supported to improve even further?

We noted the petitioners' concerns that the role of family and friends in stroke rehabilitation is being overlooked, with distances and limited transport infrastructure making regular visits impractical. Using online platforms for patient communication instead is criticised as unrealistic, given stroke-related impairments and poor digital connectivity in the region.

Concerns have also been raised over how patients would be transferred to Prince Philip and Withybush and subsequently returned home, and whether the Welsh Ambulance Services University NHS Trust will need more resources if it is to be involved in transfers.

Petitioners say the distances involved also have implications for palliative care. One in seven stroke patients will die, potentially very far from family. They're concerned about stroke mimics, leading to patients needing to be moved again to an A&E, and ask how post-operative medical emergencies will be handled.

Hywel Dda says changes are necessary to safeguard stroke services, which are currently failing to meet clinical standards and are understaffed. It points to evidence that outcomes and standards are higher when services are consolidated and delivered from fewer hospitals, and that centralising services would improve staff recruitment and retention, making services more sustainable.

The Cabinet Secretary says these are operational matters for the local health board, but that expert advice increasingly supports a shift away from the current model of stroke care towards comprehensive regional stroke centres, and that this will be necessary to meet the aims of the quality statement for stroke. He told us the board's proposals must align with this approach, whilst also considering the full impact of any changes.

The Cabinet Secretary also stresses the need for a collaborative approach to service changes, with Hywel Dda expected to work closely with clinicians, communities, neighbouring health boards and delivery partners such as the Stroke Association, Llais and Ceredigion County Council.

The petitioners are disappointed and concerned by the Cabinet Secretary's response and say the options consulted on were an either/or choice they describe as extremely lacking in detail. They also say no equality impact assessment has been conducted on removing the stroke rehab unit at Bronglais, and want Hywel Dda to go back to the drawing board and run a truly consultative process.

I know many Members have a strong interest in this issue and have already raised questions with the Cabinet Secretary. I look forward to everyone's contributions today. Diolch.

I'm delighted to have the opportunity to participate in this important debate this afternoon. Although I appreciate that Bronglais hospital isn't in my constituency, the proposals of the health board will have a huge impact on communities across west Wales, and so I want to show my support to the campaign to protect services at Bronglais hospital, and to stand with the campaigners against centralising services. I know from bitter experience about the obsessional taking of services to Carmarthen and beyond.

Bronglais hospital and, indeed, Withybush hospital in my own constituency were built because of the geography of their areas, so that services could be provided closer to their population. And that geography hasn't changed, and that's why we should continue to provide key services from Bronglais hospital.

Llywydd, of course, we all accept that sometimes we have to travel further afield for very specialist services, but forcing us to travel further afield for essential and, indeed, vital services, is totally unacceptable, and it's clear that these stroke services are absolutely essential and vital for the well-being of people in the area. Forcing patients to travel huge distances to Haverfordwest and Llanelli, which is a round trip of 200 miles or more, especially on a poor transport infrastructure, is totally unacceptable.

Now, back in 2014, the mid Wales healthcare study by Professor Marcus Longley and others recommended that unnecessary journeys to access care should be eliminated, with a co-ordinated and comprehensive examination of relevant pathways to ensure care is actually provided closer to home. Indeed, I know from bitter experience, when services have been taken away from Withybush hospital, just how difficult it is for patients to access services elsewhere. To centralise these stroke services away from Bronglais hospital, when the unit has been declared the best out of all the stroke units in the Hywel Dda health board area, does not make any sense whatsoever. If patients are transferred to Haverfordwest and Llanelli, then it's impossible for family and friends to visit, and, as we know, family and friends play a key role in the rehabilitation of stroke patients. Crucially, the health board's proposals are not supported by the Stroke Association, which is the voice of stroke patients. They have made it very clear that the health board's current proposals risk undermining specialist-led treatment, fragmenting services and increasing health inequalities across Wales.

Now, the health board tells us that these services are fragile. I accept that staff have to sometimes work in very difficult circumstances, and we are very grateful for everything that they do. But if we had seen better planning and appropriate investment then perhaps these services would not face the pressures that they do. And let's be clear: delivering health services in rural areas like this is different to delivering health services in more urban areas. That's why I've always advocated for a rural premium when it comes to delivering health services. The Welsh Government should accept that delivering health services in rural areas is different. That's why we need to see an appropriate planning framework that recognises that patient services are based on a geographical spread, not just determined by population.

Now, I'm pleased that there is a lot of cross-party consensus to oppose the health board's proposals and to fight against the centralisation of services. It's so important that, as politicians, we work together on a cross-party basis, and that we work with the campaigners, and that we do everything we can to oppose the centralisation of these stroke services. So, in closing, Llywydd, what we need to see now is action, so that these stroke services stay put at Bronglais hospital. I want to reassure the campaigners and the people who've travelled here today to listen to the debate that I will continue to do what I can to support this important campaign. Diolch yn fawr.

I should declare a personal interest at the outset here, as the broader consultation by Hywel Dda is looking at stroke services in Glangwili too, and my father is a stroke patient in their care.

Stroke is one of the most serious medical crises that faces us. Not only does every minute count in treating stroke, but the rehab is just as important, in order to give the patient the best opportunity to recover. That's why I have grave concerns about the current proposals for stroke services, which I fear would lead to real harm, not only to patients in the Hywel Dda area, but also to my constituents in Dwyfor Meirionnydd, as well as further into Montgomeryshire. The clinical services plan of the health board suggests making Bronglais hospital a treat and transfer service, providing initial treatment locally, before transferring patients to other hospitals, possibly Llanelli or Haverfordwest, for their internal rehabilitation. For people from Tywyn, Llanymawddwy or Machynlleth, that could mean a journey of up to three hours one way, without reliable public transport, and huge emotional and financial pressures on families who are trying to visit their loved ones. Moving rehabilitation services away from the patient's own area is likely to lead to worse results and cuts against the Welsh Government's principle in the 'All Wales Rehabilitation Framework', which sets out clearly that care should be provided as close to home as possible. Rehabilitation services have to be timely and intensive, but only when those services are accessible is it possible to provide that.

Neither is there a guarantee that stroke diagnosis and treatment will be led by stroke specialists. Without specialist oversight, we risk slower assessment, misdiagnosis and delayed treatment—the very problems reform is meant to fix. There is still no clear plan for thrombectomy access. At present, mechanical thrombectomy—a life-saving treatment for severe stroke—is only available in Cardiff. Without a regional expansion plan, patients in Mid and West Wales face a postcode lottery for treatment, which can mean the difference between walking, talking and permanent disability. These aren't small details; they are the foundations of safe, effective stroke care.

When health boards plan in isolation, they can design systems that look good on paper, but fail in practice. There are two ways to view the Bronglais hospital. One is from the viewpoint of a finance officer. On paper, Bronglais is a nuisance, and placing stroke services in the south of the region may seem efficient. But, with an established specialist service already nearby in Morriston, it makes no practical sense. The other way to view Bronglais is from the viewpoint not of the finance officer, but of the patient. Viewed from this end of the prism, Bronglais is a solution to many of our health problems. Indeed, it’s a life saver. If boards worked together across Hywel Dda, Swansea bay, Betsi Cadwaladr and Powys, they would see that Bronglais is the hospital best placed to serve as a regional centre of excellence. Bronglais should be viewed as solution, not a problem.

We all accept the need to modernise, but sustainability can’t come at the expense of access, quality or clinical excellence. This plan must be rethought, with genuine regional collaboration, with a patient focus, specialist leadership, and a commitment to care that’s close to home. There is cross-party agreement on this debate here today, and opposition to the proposals. And I’d like to thank my colleagues for their co-operation, especially Elin Jones, who, as the local Member, has campaigned so diligently for Bronglais over many years. Thanks, too, to the campaigners for bringing this petition forward.

I haven’t been able to make any of the meetings, but it doesn’t mean I haven’t been listening and that I don’t support this, because I absolutely do. We have a history of stroke in my family; I’ve lost two members to stroke, so I know exactly what those needs are. And I used to be, when I had more time available, the chair of the all-party group on stroke. And I’ve worked with the Stroke Association, and I know that their involvement here comes from an informed place, where they know what the patient needs, because they’re supporting people every single day.

I urge Hywel Dda local health board to listen to the strength of feeling, because it is immense. And I know, because I’ve covered the area for 18 years, that it is a huge, vast, rural area. And the potential for individuals to be isolated from their families at a time when they will need them the most is distressing to say the least. Offering alternatives to replace that personal contact, in my view, is not an option. It is only the personal contact that is an aid to recovery. And if an individual has suffered a stroke, even if that stroke is a minor stroke, their capacity to use those alternative online mechanisms for communication will be restricted, or, in some cases, they won’t be able to achieve that at all, and that isn't to say that an awful lot—but not all—of stroke patients will be elderly, and some of those individuals won’t be able to use that mechanism. It also relies on good network coverage, which is also not available in Mid and West Wales.

So, stroke survivors rely very heavily on the support that mostly comes from their families. It’s their families that will fill in that missing care that an overstretched NHS service can’t provide. And speaking with families, and also from my own experience, it is the family that will cajole you to do just that little bit more, because they have time to do that.

I will ask the Cabinet Secretary to have urgent discussions with Hywel Dda local health board about these proposals. To move a successful, high-scoring service to an alternative provision that isn't does seem a little bit odd to me. The travel times—I know them well—on a good day, you might do it in an hour and a half, on a bad day, you won't manage that. If it rains heavily, if you have snow, if you have ice, or if there happens to be an accident or roadworks, I'm afraid that you can double that time, and I have succeeded in doing that many times. So, we need to look at, of course, what is the best provision for all served in this area.

And I would say, with the greatest of respect, that Bronglais can and should be given what it requires to deliver a service that is urgently needed in that area by the staff who have already shown considerable dedication and have acquired expertise. I just have to question—. And I know that there are issues around bringing people to a rural area, but I think that there should have been some service level planning that happened perhaps sooner than it did, which allowed this to get to the crisis that it seems to have got to.

May I please start by thanking the campaigners? Their tenacity, targeted messaging and organisation has been exemplary and a real model for how you campaign on a community issue. It is also, as has been said, very rare that a debate in this Siambr has cross-party support, and this one most certainly does.

Stroke remains Wales's fourth-biggest killer, and a leading cause of long-term disability. Every minute after a stroke matters. And for people in rural Wales, those minutes can mean the difference between life and death, and a life worth living and a life that is good quality.

Bronglais hospital has served mid Wales since 1821, more than a century before the founding of the NHS. It was built to meet the needs of a dispersed rural population, and it still does so today. For many communities, it is the only district general hospital within 100 miles. Bronglais performs, as we've heard, strongly, earning a B grade in national stroke audits—better, in fact, than several of the hospitals that patients indeed might be sent to. Yet, under the current proposals, people from Ceredigion, Powys and south Meirionnydd could face journeys of up to two hours to reach specialist care, often, as we know, along narrow winding roads, with few safe alternatives when there are closures or when accidents occur.

People in mid Wales know this story all too well. We've seen services gradually chipped away—a death by stealth. Each time a service moves elsewhere, the case for keeping others weakens, slowly undermining, in this case, Bronglais's viability. And we know that, once services are removed, they never return. And in a rural area like ours, that just does not weaken one hospital, it weakens the whole network of care that people rely on. We know that as people lose confidence, in that, in this case, services from Bronglais may move, then it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. The fewer the people who go to that service, the more the service is denuded and therefore becomes unviable. We do not want that to happen with the Bronglais stroke services or with any of the services at Bronglais at all.

As we've heard, under these proposals, families could face a 200-mile round trip just to visit. We know that public transport in mid Wales is poor—'poor' is a polite word to use. Digital options, like video calls, do have their place, but as we've heard from Joyce, they cannot replace a loved one at your bedside, especially for patients struggling with speech, memory or movements. People need the direct emotional encouragement to recover.

I know that Hywel Dda is trying to balance resources across a large and diverse region, and I recognise their commitment and their staff's commitment to safe and effective care. But communities need confidence that decisions are being made transparently, based on evidence and with full consideration of real-world impacts. We've heard that concerns have arisen from other organisations. The Welsh ambulance service could not confirm whether extra ambulances or specialist escorts could be made available, and we know that, more recently, the Stroke Association has warned that the current plans risk widening health inequalities. Dr Phil Jones, the former national clinical lead for stroke in Wales, has called them fundamentally flawed, highlighting missed opportunities for innovation, collaboration and the use of telemedicine to strengthen rural care. Rural health care is unique and has to be approached differently.

When I, and many of us in this Chamber, met with petitioners earlier today from the Protect Bronglais Services campaign, we noted that they were all holding up placards. Those placards had maps of Wales, showing the district general hospitals across Wales and where they are located: three in north Wales, a whole load in south Wales, and just one, just one in the whole of mid Wales, strategically placed, serving over four counties, including many of my constituents as well. We need services at Bronglais Hospital to be protected and strengthened and not downgraded.

The proposals to remove stroke recovery services are totally, totally unacceptable and they are proposals. Cabinet Secretary, they are proposals. When I raised this with the Cabinet Secretary earlier this month, he said, 'These are not proposals.' They are proposals. We know that they are proposals. The Cabinet Secretary himself, actually, just two weeks earlier, wrote to the Chair of the Petitions Committee, and guess what he referred to them as? Proposals. The Cabinet Secretary even suggested that by me calling them 'proposals', I was causing people anxiety. It is not me calling these proposals 'proposals' that's causing the anxiety; it's the proposals themselves that are causing people across vast areas of mid Wales anxiety.

We know as well that family support is so crucial when supporting those family members who are recovering from a stroke. Like Joyce, I had a family member—my own grandmother—for many years recovering from a stroke. The idea that I would have to travel a six-hour round trip to visit my grandmother just sounds ridiculous, in that very time she needed support. Also, we know, of course, that many relatives will be older, they will not be able to drive or will not have a car, and in those situations they will be required to use public transport. It would be a nine-hour round trip for a family member to visit a loved one in hospital. Is that acceptable? No, it's not acceptable at all.

Hywel Dda and the Welsh Government need to recognise that delivering stroke services in rural Wales is very, very different to delivering stroke services in urban Wales. For solutions, the health Secretary and Hywel Dda, as Paul Davies has mentioned, just need to look again at the Longley report: the solutions are in there. Importantly, the Stroke Association, who are the voice on behalf of stroke, have urged Hywel Dda to reconsider the proposals and work to deliver safe, effective, patient-centred stroke services. I would urge this Senedd today and the Welsh Government to listen to the petitioners, listen to the full cross-party support in this Chamber today, recognise common sense, and I would urge the health Secretary to intervene and step in accordingly. Diolch, Llywydd.

I'm grateful for the opportunity to speak in this petitions' debate. We've heard quite eloquently from Members across the Chamber, and across the political divide, the real issue that is at stake here, and they've put together a compelling argument as to why stroke services need to remain at Bronglais, and I wholeheartedly concur with them and agree.

But I want to look at this from a wider perspective. My constituency, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire, is sandwiched between where services could be moving to in Withybush, in Paul Davies's constituency, and Llanelli, in Lee Waters's constituency. Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire was the location of the proposed new west Wales hospital. That was earmarked for a number of years, and communities marched up the hill of a new hospital in west Wales only to be marched back down it again, when funding was never available because it was the wrong thing to do. I could stand as a constituency MS and say, 'Look, what a great idea it is to have a brand-new hospital in my constituency', saying that I'm delivering for my constituents. That's the easy political thing to do. The right thing to do is advocate for the health services that currently exist and the reasons why they must remain in those locations. Because the geography, as Paul Davies mentioned, is not changing. Aberystwyth is where Aberystwyth is on a map. Withybush is where Withybush is on a map. They aren't moving.

So, let's talk about the fundamental issues that are at stake. When we spoke at the open meeting that Lisa Francis and those campaigners who have worked tirelessly on this organised in Aberystwyth, the points that I made there are still pertinent now, I believe. The health board is split in two, because we have the west constituent parts of the health board of Hywel Dda, and we have the east constituent parts of the health board. Those constituents of mine in Carmarthenshire and those that live in Carmarthenshire can access health services in Swansea, the Swansea Bay University Health Board area, far quicker than they can get to even Withybush in Pembrokeshire. So, for the health board to not reference the need to look at Swansea bay for pertinent services, I think is a failure in the way that this consultation has been brought forward. It is absolutely necessary to understand the geography of the Hywel Dda area.

More broadly then, the west, Ceredigion and Pembrokeshire, why is it always the west that loses its services? Why is it always the west part of Wales that has to see its services move eastwards? When was the last time services moved eastwards into Withybush or up to Bronglais? When was the last time our communities, which we represent, the Llywydd represents, Paul represents, could say, 'Do you know what? Services have come back to us, after years of services being salami-sliced away and centralised into one location'? I think that is a disservice to the constituents that we represent, because they pay their taxes like everybody else, they deserve equity of services like everybody else, and they're not receiving that. I think that is unfair. That is the pertinent point of this debate: fairness. Fairness in access to this.

Finally, Cefin Campbell.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. I'm very grateful, like everyone else, to the petitioners for gathering 17,000 names in a fairly short period of time, which shows the level of their concern about the loss of the stroke services at Bronglais Hospital, and I share their concerns in the same way. It is great, as many have said, that there is cross-party support to send a clear message to the Hywel Dda health board to reconsider this decision.

Now, as we know, there are two proposals on the table, and I'm hugely disappointed that another option, which would involve developing and investing in a specialised stroke unit at Bronglais Hospital to serve the mid Wales area, which has a population of about 1 million people, has not been included. In my opinion, not including this option of keeping a highly regarded stroke unit at Bronglais open is a failure to recognise the needs of the population of mid Wales, who are not defined by artificial health board borders and must be supported in the same way as urban communities, otherwise we enter a postcode lottery of differing clinical standards, which is both unfair and unethical. As Sam Kurtz said, it's about equity of access for all, wherever you live in Wales.

As we've heard many times, the distance that people would have to travel as patients and visitors is totally unacceptable, especially in areas that have no reliable public transport links. This makes the whole visiting process costly, time-consuming and hugely challenging for those without the resources to do so. I know that Elin Jones, the local Member for Ceredigion, has raised these points on many, many occasions.

We've also heard already, haven't we, about the role of families in that recovery process. It is so important, because they are there providing encouragement to their loved ones, helping them to dress and to wash and so on, but also providing that emotional support for them to deal with the psychological impact of a stroke.

There is also the issue of the needs of Welsh speakers, which is very important in this context, because it happened to my uncle: he was assessed after a stroke in English, and he had difficulty expressing himself in his second language, and he had an unreliable assessment. So, think about sending Welsh speakers to hospitals where, perhaps, those services wouldn't be available in Welsh, but it would certainly make it difficult for their families, who are Welsh speaking, to help with that recovery and to be with them every day. So, this is also a very important issue.

Finally, Llywydd, the Cabinet Secretary in his response to the petitioners said, and I quote:

'Anyone experiencing stroke or suspected stroke, regardless of where they live, should be seen and treated as quickly as possible in the most appropriate setting which can provide the most effective treatment they require.'

I agree wholeheartedly with his view, which is why I'm asking the Hywel Dda health board to reconsider their position and withdraw their proposals to allow for a more meaningful discussion on how to develop a bespoke plan for stroke services in mid Wales, which should be equal to that available in Llanelli or Withybush, resulting in stroke patients, and I quote again the Cabinet Secretary, being treated as quickly as possible in the most appropriate setting. Diolch.

The Cabinet Secretary for health now to respond—Jeremy Miles.

Thank you, Llywydd. I would like to start my contribution to today's debate by recognising how passionate people are about their health services and their local hospitals. These services touch the lives of people in the most important way possible. I understand the strength of feelings in communities across Wales, but I also want to say, clearly, that we don’t provide the best possible care for people who are suffering stroke, and that's because of the way stroke services are organised across Wales.

Every year, stroke changes the lives of thousands of people. The number of people who have a stroke is expected to increase by 33 per cent by 2035, but, unfortunately, the outcomes in Wales and across the UK are not as they should be. The thrombectomy rate in Wales is around 3 per cent, as compared to a target of 10 per cent. That gap represents lives that could have been saved or improved with swifter access to more specialist care.

Our aim is to reduce the risk of stroke and, when it happens, to give patients the best possible chance to survive and recover. To do that, we must look at how we provide the specialist care provided to people once they've had a stroke. The clinical consensus that is emerging is that acute stroke care should be provided as a specialist service on a regional basis.

To make the most of specialist stroke care, we must act quickly. The brain's ability to rewire itself is remarkable, and it is most responsive in the first 72 hours after a stroke. Rehabilitation after a stroke is absolutely vital in helping survivors regain essential functions, and early intensive rehabilitation during this window can significantly improve recovery and long-term quality of life. Centres of excellence can deliver this care consistently, laying the foundation for continued recovery through local and community-based services closer to home. This model offers a real opportunity to address fragilities in the system, build a more sustainable workforce and, most importantly, improve survival rates and quality of life.

After last week's short debate, this is now the second consecutive week that this Chamber has focused on stroke—a clear signal of just how important this issue is. It underscores the urgency and the critical need to get this right, to transform services, and to deliver better outcomes for patients across Wales, which they deserve.

Llywydd, Hywel Dda University Health Board has put forward a series of proposals for consultation to change how stroke services are provided across west Wales. It's the latest health board to consider how it can improve stroke services and, crucially, how it can improve outcomes. In publishing the proposals for consultation, it has acknowledged its current services fall short of clinical standards, lack seven-day specialist cover, and face staffing challenges. This leads to inconsistent access and variation in service quality and, crucially, in outcomes. The services in their current configuration are not providing the best outcomes for patients, despite the efforts of NHS staff, and they are not sustainable. The proposals and decisions are ultimately for Hywel Dda University Health Board to make. It is responsible for planning and providing care in west Wales, based on the needs of people in west Wales. [Interruption.]

Are you taking the intervention?

Yes.

Thank you very much for the opportunity to contribute.

You talked about the proposals put forward by Hywel Dda, but one of the things that's been raised is that there are only two options. I don't know if you would agree with some of the points that have been made that consultation involves looking at the broader range of opportunities. I don't know if you would agree with an option in the consultation document for there to be a third proposal—that is, to accept evidence and views on the stroke service in its entirety remaining at Bronglais, and indeed becoming that specialist resource as well. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

As I have just been outlining—I hope in a way that Members will have appreciated—the requirement on the health board is for proposals to be clinically led and to follow the clinical consensus wherever possible. It's a matter for the health board to decide how to interpret that in the context of the needs of its local population. I'm quite sure that, given the work of the group in Bronglais and others, including some Members in this Chamber, there will have been a very clear message to the health board about people's views about the range of options. But it is a matter for the health board to set out its view of how the clinical advice it receives is best applied in the context of the local population in west Wales. However, I would go on to say that it must also meet the expectations that we as a Government have set out in the quality statement for stroke, which is clear that stroke is a medical emergency and anyone experiencing a stroke, no matter where they live, must be seen and treated as quickly as possible, in the most appropriate setting, by the most skilled professionals. The quality statement is the foundation for planning how services are developed and how they are delivered. The standards that are set out in the quality statement must be embedded in health board service plans to make sure that they are consistent and to ensure quality and equity of access, of care and of outcomes.

Would you take an intervention on that?

Yes.

Do you accept that the Stroke Association don't support these proposals? Does it make sense to you, first of all, as well, that Hywel Dda are proposing to develop a centre of excellence only some miles away from another centre of excellence in Morriston, but a long distance away from the people of mid and west Wales? And are you content, as a Government, that this proposal is the best to serve the people of mid and west Wales?

I'll quote from the letter from the Stroke Association to all Members, in which it says that the Stroke Association supports reorganisation of emergency and acute stroke services into centres of excellence, as evidence shows these can provide better care, improve clinical outcomes and make services more cost effective. As I think I've made clear, I think it's then up to the health board to interpret the Government's policy, clearly supported by the Stroke Association, in the way in which it is best applied in the context of west Wales. I accept the Stroke Association does not support the proposals that are currently being consulted upon, but I think I've set out what the Government's view is about how that should be taken forward.

I will say, Llywydd, in closing, that no decision has yet been made by Hywel Dda University Health Board. As Members will obviously know, it held a 13-week public consultation and received more than 4,000 responses and around 200 alternative suggestions. Due to the volume and complexity of the feedback, the board has decided to delay its decision to enable it to properly and fully analyse the responses. It's reviewing the options in light of the feedback that has been received, and a final decision is expected, as Members I think will know, early next year. I expect the health board to carefully consider all the feedback and options and rigorously assess them to understand their full impact.

I think we can all agree, Llywydd, that this is about securing the best possible quality of life for those who suffer a stroke. It is a decision for the health board, but we cannot continue to accept the status quo of poor outcomes for stroke. We have to change the way we provide acute stroke care to save more lives and improve quality of life after a stroke.

Carolyn Thomas, the Chair of the committee, now, to reply to the debate.

I'd like to thank all Members for their contributions. I think that it was a really good debate, and I'm just going to try to pick out a few things here. I'll try to be quick. It was suggested that a rural premium should be applied, including geographical spread, not just based on the number of people. Time is of the essence for stroke diagnosis but also rehabilitation. Bronglais could be a centre of excellence. That could be a third option that actually should be on the table.

Preventing isolation from families who could help them recover and give support is essential. Stroke remains Wales’s fourth-biggest killer. Every minute counts to the quality of recovery. A brain can rewire itself, the Cabinet Secretary said, in the first 72 hours of a stroke. I also heard about connectivity, how poor it is, in that area—broadband and access along roads—and that digital options are not a replacement for the touch and the help of a loving member of a family. The Stroke Association have urged Hywel Dda to reconsider, and Welsh speakers are really important in rehabilitation to help people recover. I would also just like to say that the health board has raised that there are staffing challenges and that the service is not sustainable. It is a really big issue with many of our services, health services, and we really need to look at encouraging people to go up those pathways into our health services and try and recruit and retain staff—it's so important—and not talk down our health service. It's so important to our residents in Wales.

I'd like to thank the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care for his response. I'd like to thank the Business Committee for granting time for this important debate. I thank all the petitioners and campaigners for raising their concerns about stroke care in the region—18,000 signatures, that's incredible in such a short amount of time. And I know you closed the petition early. I believe this sends a clear message to the health board, and all that was raised here today in this debate will be sent to the health board for their consideration. I'd like to thank you, Llywydd, for allowing this to take place. Diolch.

The proposal is to note the petition. Does any Member object? No. The motion under that item is agreed.

Item 7 is next, a debate on the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport and International Relations Committee report, 'Charging for exhibitions'. I call on the Chair to move the motion. Delyth Jewell.

I'm pleased to be able to open today's debate on the report by the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport and International Relations Committee on charging for exhibitions. I'd like to thank the committee team and the Members and everyone who gave us evidence. Our report, published in June, made five recommendations. The Welsh Government has responded to the committee's recommendations, accepting four of them and rejecting one.

I'd like to remind Members of the context in which the committee undertook this work. The culture Minister at the time, Dawn Bowden, had said that ending free entry to Amgueddfa Cymru, which has been Government policy for almost the entire devolution period, was on the table. This followed reductions to culture in the Welsh Government's draft budget for 2024-25. That draft budget itself followed on from a decade of cuts that left funding for culture in Wales among the lowest in Europe.

At that time, according to its own calculations, the Welsh Government had reduced revenue budgets in these areas by about 17 per cent in real terms over a decade. Indeed, analysis by Senedd Research revealed that, as a result of these prolonged real-terms reductions, public funding of culture in Wales is among the lowest in Europe. This analysis compared public spending on culture and sport with 24 European countries, including the UK as a whole. The average spend on cultural services in these countries is over £200 per person. In Wales, the figure is only just over £70 per person. This placed Wales second from bottom of the group of 25 nations. In January 2024, the Deputy Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism at the time told the culture committee that charging for access to Amgueddfa Cymru was on the table, therefore, due to the critical situation regarding the budget, by saying, and I quote:

'I'm not saying that that's where we will end up, but it would not be responsible of me to rule that out at this stage or to suggest to the museum that they shouldn't be exploring that.'

Now, in this context, it was appropriate that the committee decided to investigate the free entry policy, as well as the impact of charging for access to exhibitions. We wanted to consider issues such as the contribution that charging can make to income generation, the impact of charging on the diversity of audiences, the impact of charging on visitor experiences, whether charging should be targeted at particular groups and how that could be done, and also Welsh Government assistance for temporary exhibitions.

In Wales and across the UK, entry to national museums has been free since 2001 when museums dropped their charges in return for funding from Governments. In recommendation 1, the committee endorses that position. We say:

'We recommend that the Welsh Government’s policy of free entry to the national museums is retained.'

But just as importantly, we do recommend the following:

'The Welsh Government should provide adequate funding to Amgueddfa Cymru to facilitate this.'

If the commitment is to mean anything, the money must follow. We say in the report, and I repeat that now:

'It is an indictment of these historic low levels of funding that the previous Deputy Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism told this Committee that charging for entry was an option "on the table".

'Whilst the Welsh Government’s 2025-26 Final Budget includes welcome increases in funding for culture, this does not obscure the significant real-term reductions in funding the sector has endured over the past decade.'

Sadly,

'The Welsh Government is yet to fund culture in a way that recognises its intrinsic worth to the nation.'

Ultimately, the Government ruled out scrapping free entry, but we wanted to consider also whether charging for individual exhibitions plugs the gaps caused by real-terms reductions in funding.

While some might presume that charging is a cash cow for museums, we heard important evidence that income raised from charged-for exhibitions is relatively modest, and that very few temporary shows make an absolute profit. We heard that exhibitions can bring additional benefits, including improving diversity of provision and audience diversity, as well as increasing secondary spend, for example in shops and cafes. It seems that the primary benefit of running temporary exhibitions that are subject to charging is not commercial.

The committee found that the Welsh Government should be wary of pointing to exhibitions as an answer to the problems caused by the Welsh Government's underfunding of Amgueddfa Cymru, so our second recommendation is

I'm pleased to contribute to this debate today on the report by the culture committee into charging for exhibitions. I want to begin by paying tribute to the Chair, Delyth Jewell, to Members from across the committee and our clerking and research teams whose careful work produced what I think is a deeply considered report. I also want to thank Amgueddfa Cymru for the evidence they provided; the insight has been invaluable in helping us understand the difficult financial position that our museums now find themselves in.

The report lays out starkly the reality facing our cultural institutions. After a decade of real-terms reductions, the public funding of culture in Wales is amongst the lowest in Europe—just £73 per person, roughly a third of the European average. The 2024-25 budget cuts were described by the amgueddfa as the biggest ever, and we've seen the human impact of that, with staff redundancies and reduced opening hours. Yet, through all of this, our national museums have continued to deliver for Wales, preserving our shared history and making it freely accessible to everybody.

Free entry has been the foundation of that access for more than two decades, and this report rightly defends it. I'm pleased that the Welsh Government has stated that they are committed to maintaining free entry to museums, which is also the position of the Welsh Conservatives. When free entry was introduced in 2001, visitor numbers doubled, but free entry must be matched with adequate funding to make it meaningful, because in and of itself, free entry does not lead to equal socioeconomic attendance at museums, and this was the point made by the former head of Glasgow Museums, Dr Mark O'Neill.

Although there are mining museums across England that charge for tours, Amgueddfa Cymru is the only national institution to charge access to some exhibitions, but the amgueddfa is only making decisions based on the resources provided to it. I've been underground at Big Pit myself, as the entire committee did earlier this year, and I've walked those tunnels and listened to the stories of former miners who guide visitors through what was once the beating heart of the Welsh mining history, and it's an extraordinary experience. It's the living memory of communities across Wales. So, when it comes to charging visitors at Blaenavon, we must acknowledge that going underground isn't a supplementary experience to the museum, but the main attraction at the site, and the main reason people visit. Thus, charging for entry will inevitably deter first-time visitors. It would be more understandable to charge for workshops held at the museum, but the main exhibition should remain free of charge. I understand the financial pressures that Amgueddfa Cymru faces, but this does not absolve the Welsh Government of responsibility. Ministers set the direction, provide more than 80 per cent of the funding and proclaim a commitment to free entry. That commitment must be backed by the resources to make it real.

It's a pleasure to participate in this debate today. It was very interesting to participate in this inquiry. As many of you will know, I worked for Amgueddfa Cymru for 12 years before being elected to this Senedd, so you'll have to forgive me, I do have some prejudices here. I am a strong believer in the importance of free entry, and I do believe that when people ask us, 'Well, what has the Assembly, or the Senedd as it is now, done for us?', then free access to our museums has been one of those major successes, and it's something that we should all be proud of.

I would like to take this opportunity to pay tribute to Jenny Randerson, who was the culture Minister at the time who introduced free entry to our national museums. She was passionate about ensuring that everyone could access culture, whatever their background, something I know that the current Minister has also conveyed to us, and it's something, of course, that many of us believe strongly in too.

The fact is, as we've heard already, that within a year of this policy being introduced in 2001, visitor numbers doubled—an overnight success, therefore, and something that truly worked. Clearly, since COVID, we have seen numbers declining. The number pre COVID was 1.8 million. The national museum was going to reach 2 million had COVID not happened. We are now seeing an increase, with the latest figures showing, in 2024-25, an increase to 1.47 million visitors. But I do believe that it would be an error for us to take a retrograde step here. I'm pleased to see the commitment of the current Government to retain the free entry policy, and I hope to see this in every political party's manifesto for the next Senedd.

One of the things that was extremely concerning for us as a committee, and as has already been expressed this afternoon, was the underground tours at Big Pit—something that is entirely unique, something that is entirely enchanting and something that brings history to life. It is such an invaluable part of how we have formed the Wales of today, and something that I think every school pupil should have the opportunity to experience. I asked a question earlier of the Senedd Commission about the grants available for schools to visit this Senedd, and I know that a number of schools combined visits to our Senedd with a visit to Big Pit, and that's one of the things that isn't happening as much now because of the pressures on school budgets.

I am concerned that we're seeing this trial in Big Pit. I do understand the arguments put forward by Amgueddfa Cymru—that those questioned who visit Big Pit aren't worried about paying, they're happy to pay—but that isn't the point. We're not asking the people who aren't visiting Big Pit because there is a charge now, and I do believe that this is centrally important in terms of free entry. I am concerned that Amgueddfa Cymru has reached a position where things are so tight financially that they have had to take this step.

I call on the Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership, Jack Sargeant.

Diolch yn fawr, Deputy Presiding Officer. Can I thank members of the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport and International Relations Committee for the report on charging for exhibitions, the Chair for opening today's debate and the two Members who contributed to this afternoon's debate? Let me be clear: I am determined that no-one will be excluded from accessing the benefits that culture brings.

I too am proud that Wales led on free access to the national collection, introducing the policy ahead of the rest of the UK. This landmark policy helps make sure the national collection is accessible for everyone, and encourages a diverse range of visitors. Thanks to our ongoing funding, visitors can continue to enter all seven Amgueddfa Cymru sites for free. The incredible experiences that the museums offer across Wales continue to be recognised, with the National Waterfront Museum recently being shortlisted for a family-friendly museum award. We have extended this further by sharing the national contemporary art collection more widely through the network of CELF galleries.

As a Government, we are committed to the free access policy. This is most recently reflected in 'Priorities for Culture', which includes the ambition that culture is inclusive, accessible and diverse. Although access to the permanent collection is free, national museums across the UK can and do charge for the curated experiences, which need additional resources and expertise, as well as the additional services and experiences. This includes some temporary exhibitions and special events. As an arm's-length body, it is for Amgueddfa Cymru to make decisions on whether to ask for a donation, to charge for curated or specialist experiences and content, as well as what to include in a membership offer. As a recent example of that, Amgueddfa Cymru asked visitors to pay a small fee to see the world-famous Van Gogh self-portrait that was part of the Art of the Selfie exhibition at National Museum Cardiff. Without the contributions, such additional content and specialist activities may not be possible.

The need for Amgueddfa Cymru to become more financially sustainable was highlighted in the final report of its tailored review, as referred to by the Chair. Acting on the findings of the report, Amgueddfa Cymru continues to explore and pilot different charging approaches to help it to raise additional income, which it can reinvest into its sites and its collections. In April, Amgueddfa Cymru started its latest charging trial for the underground tour at Big Pit National Coal Museum.

We take a partnership approach to working with Amgueddfa Cymru. We meet regularly. Working in partnership, the amgueddfa has responded positively by gathering further data, as we suggested, during the extended trial. The impact of charging on who visits will be considered, and I think that refers to the points that Heledd was making earlier. At the same time, Amgueddfa Cymru is offering free tickets to members of school groups, open concessions and weekends where the underground tour is free for everybody.

I call on Delyth Jewell to reply to the debate.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. I thank everyone who has taken part in today's debate. Gareth talked about the very difficult situation that Amgueddfa Cymru still faces. We all recognise that, of course. He talked about how Amgueddfa Cymru protects our history, something that unites us as a nation. And, yes, places like Big Pit, of course, do show that history isn't just something found in books. It can be a living thing. Hearing the stories of former miners, as Gareth mentioned, is an integral part of our heritage. It provides an unparalleled insight into our lost history.

Heledd mentioned the importance of free access to her personally, because of her background at the amgueddfa. But, as Heledd said, it is also an important thing that our Senedd secured. I would like to thank Heledd for and echo her tribute to Jenny Randerson for what she did to secure this. The free entry policy is a story of success. Heledd also focused on the underground tours at Big Pit as a unique element, an invaluable element, particularly for children. That’s an important point that was made by Heledd—we don’t ask the people who don’t go to Big Pit now because of the charges. That is vital. Of course, Heledd also mentioned the need to tackle the impact on those from diverse backgrounds of this change.

I would like to thank the Minister for his words, and also for his determination, as he said, to ensure that people won’t be deprived of or excluded from their own heritage. Of course, that is our aspiration as a committee as well. I would like to repeat our view as a committee that going underground at Big Pit is an integral part of our national collections. They’re not just treasures locked in a cabinet, these collections. They can be experiences that you can get lost in. This experience of going underground and stepping into our own history and our national collections, maybe that's one of the most accessible aspects of the collections and the most important to protect. It is disappointing therefore that the committee's view on this is different to that of the Government. Of course, we do welcome the fact that the amgueddfa is in a less critical state than it was, but the amgueddfa had mentioned the ongoing strain on staff members. We will, as, I am sure, will the Government, want to keep a watching brief on that.

We as a committee will continue to be champions for our heritage and our culture. I thank everyone once again for taking part in this debate this afternoon and thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Item 8 this afternoon is the Welsh Conservatives debate on education outcomes, and I call on Natasha Asghar to move the motion.

Thank you so much, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'm pleased to move this motion this afternoon in the name of my colleague Paul Davies. For far too long, the Welsh Government has failed our children and their futures. Classrooms are overcrowded, teachers are under ever-increasing pressure, school violence is through the roof and standards are slipping, whilst Ministers just make excuses. Too many pupils are being left behind. We see falling literacy rates, with 20 per cent of children leaving primary school functionally illiterate, maths standards at a worryingly low level, and a curriculum that's confusing to students, parents and teachers alike. Not only that, but we have more than 2 million school days missed in just one year due to unauthorised absences.

Our PISA results are at an all-time low, with warnings that Romania is set to outperform us in just 15 years. Our GCSE pass rate in top grades remains significantly lower than England's, there are dwindling apprenticeship starts, a teacher recruitment and retention crisis, a discredited reading method being pushed in our schools, and this year Wales was the only nation where the proportion of top A-level grades did indeed fall, all while teachers' workload and stress levels rise rapidly. This, Deputy Presiding Officer, is, sadly, just a snapshot of the current issues with our education system here in Wales. The Government's reforms are delivering more bureaucracy and stress, rather than results, and it's simply not good enough.

Only recently the Welsh Government decided to withdraw funding for Technocamps, a flagship digital skills programme. Instead, as we heard yesterday, the Government has decided to give a £1.4 million grant to the University of York's STEM learning programme. Technocamps, from my understanding, Deputy Presiding Officer, is an enormously successful scheme, which has delivered more than 5,000 workshops across Wales, engaging in excess of 90,000 learners. The initiative's success can be seen through a national survey of teachers finding 94 per cent of them rating Technocamps as essential or, indeed, important.

The decision to withdraw funding for Technocamps is the latest in a long list of blunders from the Welsh Government, and it must indeed be reversed. I hope, in response to the debate, the Cabinet Secretary will, indeed, address this point. It is our students and our teachers who are paying the price for the never-ending failures of successive Labour Governments here in Wales. Our young people deserve better. We need meaningful action, rather than warm words and short-term solutions that just paper over the cracks. It is clear the Welsh Labour Government has run out of ideas and is just running down the clock until next May's election, when they will be out of power and away from responsibility.

I have selected the amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call on Cefin Campbell to move amendment 1, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. It's a pleasure to move this amendment in the name of Heledd Fychan.

If Plaid Cymru forms the next Welsh Government, our national mission will be clear: raise education standards and give every child in Wales the best possible start in life. But we must confront an uncomfortable truth, because the current Welsh Government's failure to get even the basics right in literacy and numeracy means our pupils are not fulfilling their potential. Let me quote Jane Davidson, Labour's first education Minister in Wales, writing nearly 25 years ago:

'We are at a turning point for education in Wales.'

'Many of our communities are vulnerable and disadvantaged. Our skills-base is relatively low.... These challenges are of historic significance.... Failure to match up to them cannot be an option.'

So, I ask: how can words written a quarter of a century ago still ring true today? The price you are paying for over 25 years of Labour failures is painfully clear: under Labour's watch, Wales recorded its lowest ever Programme for International Student Assessment scores in reading, mathematics and science in 2022. One in three children in Wales live in poverty. One in four primary schools lacks access to a dedicated library space. Disadvantaged pupils in England outperform their Welsh peers by around 30 points, and even outperform the average Welsh pupil. And Estyn reports that 32 per cent of primary schools need to improve literacy and numeracy, and that many fail to plan effectively for higher order reading skills. And in Welsh-medium education, opportunities to develop advanced reading skills are often limited, and co-ordination across secondary schools is weak, especially during the critical transition from year 6 to year 7. And the same weaknesses are evident in English reading. And mathematics has suffered too, with Estyn noting that teaching quality is highly variable and pupil standards unacceptably low.

This is why Plaid Cymru is proposing a series of overlapping and innovative solutions to get the basics right and raise standards in our schools. Now, in case Natasha missed the points that I made in our national conference a couple of weeks ago about how to fix standards in education, I will reiterate them again, in case you think that we haven't got a plan.

We will introduce a foundational literacy and numeracy plan, a coherent, measurable national strategy with clear benchmarks to track pupil progress, early intervention for those falling behind and evidence-based professional development for teachers. But foundational skills don't develop in isolation; they need nurturing environments, which is why we are committed to ensuring that every primary school in Wales has access to a dedicated library space by the end of our first term in Government. The national literacy—

Will you take an intervention?

Yes, of course.

I'm grateful for you, Cefin, for taking the intervention. You pointed out moments ago that educational standards were so much higher in England and that Wales was lagging behind. Well, obviously, much of that happened under the last Conservative Government. Why is it that Plaid Cymru opposed almost every single measure that the Conservative Government took in Westminster? If it was so successful, you should have been calling for the same to happen here.

Well, for the simple reason that education is devolved. [Interruption.] So, we decide here, in Wales, in this Chamber, what is best for education in Wales. We don't take our orders from the UK Government. So, that is quite simple.

And having a dedicated space for libraries is supported by the National Literacy Trust, by Estyn and the NAHT; and they've all made the direct link between library access and improved literacy outcomes. We also need to embed reading across the curriculum, supporting the transition from year 6 to year 7; equipping teachers with specific subject reading strategies and working with families to foster a love of reading at home and across generations.

And we will tackle head on the recruitment-of-teachers crisis. Labour has missed secondary-teacher recruitment targets for nearly a decade. Estyn is clear that we cannot raise standards without resolving this. So, Plaid Cymru will deliver a fair and competitive teacher recruitment and retention strategy—now, that's one for you to note, Natasha—with incentives that match those in England and a requirement for recipients to remain teaching in Wales for a defined period. That's a basic and reasonable expectation, and one that the current Government has failed to implement. And we will also address pupil behaviour, absenteeism and workload pressures—issues driving too many teachers out of the profession.

You need to conclude now, please, Cefin.

Yes, it's coming to an end.

Now, please.

I did take an intervention. We will act on the behaviour summit's recommendations and share best practice from schools that are successfully tackling these challenges. More teachers, less pressure, better retention. Our children deserve nothing less.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Education to move formally amendment 2, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt.

Formally.

This is a crucial issue for this debate today. I often think that there is little more important than the education of our children and our young people. We know that Wales is failing its pupils. We've already heard several times, and you'll hear it again, that parents and teachers are being let down and things have to be changed. Our PISA scores are the lowest in the United Kingdom. Five consecutive cycles at the bottom of the pile is not a one-off; it signals systemic failure. How does this showcase Wales on the global stage and our future workforce? Our children are being failed in maths, reading and science, and we know that there's a shortage of science, technology, engineering and mathematics pupils—more evidence of Labour's failure. Our schools are meant to be places of learning, but all too often we're hearing horror stories of knives and other weapons being brought into school, and a general decline in discipline, to the point that teachers are leaving the profession or going on strike.

The Welsh Conservatives are calling today for a restoration of discipline and respect in our schools, and rightly so. We must see poor behaviour tackled now. There is a clear link between discipline and learning outcomes. So, by tackling the one, you improve the other. Teachers need to feel they are in control, not in fear of pupils, and not seeing their authority eroded. The measures put forward by the Conservatives today include an automatic exclusion, as we've heard, for knives. These are not harsh; they are just commonsense policies. If teachers are left without authority, they will leave the profession, and pupils will lose more stability in their school lives, which again will hamper their progress and outcomes.

We've talked about PISA scores, but let's dig a little deeper. In 2024, UK-wide demand and acceptances for university places increased, with England's disadvantaged 18-year-old acceptances growing, yet Wales's reduced. Looking at Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development averages in maths, reading and science, England are above the average, but Wales is below in all three, and has seen the largest decline among the UK nations since 2018—more evidence of that systemic failure I mentioned.

One thing that we must see in Wales is the ability for academies to be established. This would not only increase innovation, as our motion states, but would provide real change for our pupils. Sponsored academies in England have delivered improvements, but the reason for this is due to their capacity, instructional focus, and crucially their accountability, not just because of a legal status. It's clear to see that academies in England have improved outcomes in the country, so why deny Welsh pupils that same opportunity? By enabling academies, Wales can capture the benefits, with improvements to structures, attendance systems, and subject-specific learning. All of these things can be achieved in Wales whether the Welsh Government accepts the idea of academies or not; all it takes is putting our children and their education first.

I want to concentrate on boys in education, Dirprwy Lywydd. The Centre for Social Justice came to the Senedd a couple of weeks ago and talked about their state of the nation 2025 report, as part of their work on lost boys, looking at what's happening right across Britain and then, obviously, referring to Wales. Part of that work is education. Education is one of the six themes that this work explores. Basically, it seeks to look at that gendered aspect of disadvantage and underperformance in our education system.

They found, right from the earliest ages, for example in terms of school readiness, girls in reception class tend to be much more school ready than boys, and that gap in performance on that gender basis runs throughout the course of the educational experience. They say that gender is almost as influential as development and deprivation in early educational outcomes. Of course, half the children that failed to meet expected standards at age 16 were, in fact, behind at age five. When it comes to reading for pleasure, it's in particular decline amongst boys when compared to girls. Of course, less reading time correlates with lower academic achievement, and not reading for pleasure correlates with increased smartphone use, which I think is problematic in many ways.

We see the underperformance of boys compared to girls throughout the educational system. When it comes to GCSE, girls achieve roughly half a grade higher per subject. When it comes to 16 to 19, girls outperformed boys over a grade and a half in their top three qualifications. Boys struggle to progress without English and maths GCSEs, which then limits access to vocational routes. At university level, girls outnumbered boys in terms of new entrants in 2022-23 by 3:2.

I know from my own school visits in Newport East that there are particular issues around white working-class boys, and that was brought to my attention in one of the high schools in Newport, where the headteacher told me that that part of the school population was particularly underperforming. He felt there was a need to recognise that and concentrate effort in the educational system to address that particular aspect of underperformance. When it comes to exclusions, boys are twice as likely to be excluded from school as girls, with all the issues that that brings—multiple negative outcomes, including involvement with the criminal justice system.

There are so many different aspects of educational underperformance when it comes to boys in our school system, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I'd be very grateful if the Cabinet Secretary, in her response, could say a little about how the Welsh Government will address that underperformance of boys in our educational system.

Let me start where John Griffiths finished in acknowledging the issues that were raised in that Centre for Social Justice report on boys, in particular educational attainment. I was pleased to be able to sponsor that event that John Griffiths referred to. The Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice also addressed people at that event, recognising those challenges that boys are facing more broadly, but in particular in education as well, and I agree with everything that John Griffiths highlights. That's part of the reason why I, in recent years, brought forward legislation proposals here to support our young people through things like outdoor education, and why, for boys in particular, that type of experience is really important for them and for their educational outcomes.

Deputy Presiding Officer, I'm speaking today not just as a Welsh Conservative, but as a parent who has three children in the Welsh school system at the moment. As a parent, there are things I'm genuinely concerned about. One of the issues that I am particularly concerned about has already been raised in this debate today, and that's the increase we've seen of violence and disruption in our schools, which appear to be at record highs. These things should not be happening in any school, at any time, anywhere in Wales, but even today, members of NEU Cymru at Flint High School, in my area in north Wales, are continuing their strike action over workplace bullying and failures to tackle pupil behaviour. They've now entered their eighth day of industrial action because of this issue. They are clear that Labour have lost control in our schools, and this situation highlights exactly why we need a robust behaviour strategy to restore discipline and order in our schools. No teacher should feel unsafe or undermined in their workplace, and no child's education should suffer because of poor behaviour that goes unchallenged. We need to raise standards and we need to crack down on this poor behaviour.

The other important point that concerns me, though, as a parent, is that we need to give parents choice over the education of their children. Choice is a fundamental value that we hold dear as Conservatives. It's a big difference between ourselves as Conservatives and other parties in this Chamber. We trust parents to make the right decisions with their children, but, far too often, parents aren't given the options to choose. In Labour-run Wales, it's very much a one-size-fits-all approach. Let me give a live example of what has taken place in Flintshire, which shows this very clearly.

In Flintshire, local families are facing the closure of four catholic schools—three primaries and one high school—to be replaced by one giant superschool for three to 18s. You'd think such a major change would be supported by evidence and significant public support. This simply is not the case. Ninety-five per cent of people who responded to the consultation opposed this plan—95 per cent. Parents are furious, and rightly so. Some are now going to have to face round trips of 14 miles to get their four-year-old to school, and the local authority is suggesting that those four-year-olds should just jump on the bus to be able to access that education. It's not practical, it's not fair, and it does not put children first.

Just so we can continue a grown-up debate, I just want to clarify for the Chamber why it was that I didn't take up that space right now on the education, children and young people committee, because the clerk and the Chair of the committee, to be fair, already know the answer to this. It's because I already had pre-booked health appointments in place for a number of weeks, so I can't take up that opportunity right now, but I would love to in the future, and I hope to be asked once again.

But now we've cleared that up, I would like to welcome this debate, because Reform Cymru believes that reforming education in Wales needs to be a top national priority. Every child in Wales deserves the best start in life, and right now we are failing them. Let's be honest: Wales's education system is in crisis. We're at the bottom of every major education league table. Our results in maths, reading and science are the lowest of all UK nations, on a par with Baltic states, whilst England continues to climb. Why? Because England has a knowledge-based curriculum that prioritises reading, writing, numeracy, employability and gave schools freedom with the free schools and academies, which we also would look to agree with.

By contrast, we went the other way, to a skills-based model, ignoring warnings from Scotland. Looking at the Welsh Conservatives' motion, much of it is sensible. Stronger accountability, discipline, phonics, parental involvement and the inclusion of practical life skills, such as budgeting and home economics, are all things that we would support.

Looking at the Welsh Conservative motion, there are those aims that we do agree with, but what matters most is delivery, not the design of it. We've heard lots of promises from Labour and the Conservatives over the years about raising standards. What we need now is consistency and the proper funding for our schools that's needed to deliver that, and a focus on what is working and what is not in our classrooms.

And there's additional learning needs, which I spoke on yesterday in this place. I recognise that for everyone—Reform, teachers, parents, the children's commissioner and children and young people themselves—this is where the real harm is being done, and they recognise that. We should all recognise that, because it is affecting educational outcomes. We all rightly welcome the ALN Act, but the reality is that it is fundamentally flawed—flawed because it's meant pupils with lower levels of additional learning needs are being forgotten completely and are not getting the help and support that they so desperately need; flawed because the Act is being interpreted 22 different ways by 22 local authorities, creating a postcode lottery that leaves parents fighting for the support their child deserves. And let me emphasise that, fighting for whatever their children need and deserve, and that's disgraceful. Not only that, the lack of teaching assistants and staff trained in dealing with ALN and lacking teacher training in ALN is causing unnecessary disruption in our classrooms, unnecessary suspensions for pupils, unnecessary disruption to all pupils as teachers' focus has been taken away unnecessarily from their whole classroom needs.

Will the Member for South Wales East take an intervention?

Yes, of course.

We all agree that we need more teachers, but I haven't actually heard a policy from you as to how you intend to get more teachers into the classrooms. You've been going for four and a half minutes and I've not heard a single Reform policy on how you can improve education. So, if you could elaborate on how you're going to do these things I'd be much obliged.

I am sure, like a lot of people, you are very excited about when we do release our manifesto, but it will be coming soon. We are actually listening to teachers and heads and everyone at the moment preparing our manifesto. We will release it when necessary.

School readiness is absolutely a priority at the moment. Because of increased violent behaviour and workload, teachers are leaving our profession. We need to hone in on this, because without teachers, how can we get the education that our children deserve right across the board? Reform says 'Enough is enough'. It is time to raise aspirations, restore accountability and give young people the future that they deserve. Diolch

It’s a pleasure to take part in this debate this afternoon. Education should be the great ladder of opportunity in our society, the surest way for a child, no matter their background, to build a better future, but in Wales that ladder is harder to climb than anywhere else. In all the various areas where the Welsh Government is underachieving, education is perhaps the most dire and the most depressing, because they are not making sensible decisions that will improve the problems, because their priorities are entirely in the wrong place.

As ludicrous as it is to say, they barely recognise that there’s a problem with how things currently are. But things are bad, very bad, and the fact is that egalitarians wrecked the education system, which ironically has made the education system far more unequal. Britain had some of the best state schools in the world, yet today, after decades of so-called progressive changes, we now rank near the bottom of western Europe, with Wales making up the poorest performing out of that cohort. I think we can already predict the response from the Cabinet Secretary, which is to accuse the Welsh Conservatives of doing down our schools. But to make it clear, I hold the leadership in Government wholly responsible for our children being let down so badly.

Children today grow up in a Wales where they are likely to achieve poorer educational outcomes than their parents, and that is unforgivable. The latest PISA results tell a devastating story. Wales now ranks the lowest out of all UK nations in maths, reading and science, for the fifth time in a row. The lowest performance ever recorded. That is not just disappointing, it’s a damning verdict on a quarter of a century of Labour control of our education system. We cannot keep pretending this is just about funding or circumstance. It's about choices, political choices, that have valued ideology over evidence and complacency over accountability. It's about devolved governance that has dismantled traditional knowledge in literature, history and exams, that has sought to reinvent the wheel when it comes to teaching children to read and write, abandoning traditional teaching methods that has caused irreparable damage. It's a devolved Government that has waged war on meritocracy and that doesn't measure success by exam results, which has utterly failed to react to growing violence and disruption in our schools.

The result of this kind of leadership is that 20 per cent of pupils are leaving primary schools functionally illiterate and many more innumerate. The damage caused by disrupted learning during the pandemic has also left thousands of young people with a lifelong handicap. These are problems that require wholesale reform and a complete reassessment of the Welsh Government's priorities. This is not something that hiring a few more teachers will solve, but what we see in our classrooms today is not the fault of our hard-working teachers; they have been badly let down by a system that no longer supports or protects them. Behaviour has worsened, violence is rising and respect for authority has collapsed, and nowhere is it clearer—as Sam Rowlands has already mentioned—than at Flint High School, where teachers have now entered their seventh and eighth day of strike action, not over pay, but over bullying and pupil behaviour. Imagine how desperate a situation must become for dedicated educators to walk out, simply because they no longer feel safe in their place of work.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Education, Lynne Neagle.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I welcome the opportunity to talk about education in Wales and our shared commitment to doing what's best for our learners and schools. I was surprised when, yet again, I saw the proposal for this debate was based on Wales's PISA results from 2022. Members will remember that this was a time when our learners and teachers were emerging from two years of the pandemic and all the challenges that caused, and a period when few learners were taking structured exams in the same way as previous PISA cohorts.

I absolutely fully accept that that was the case when those PISA tests were being undertaken, but that was also the case for those children in England, Scotland and Northern Ireland who took the test at the same time, and yet their performance was markedly better than was the case in Wales, because of the failure of your Labour Government to be able to deliver the improvements and quality of education that's needed.

Well, Darren, I've been very open, I think, with the Chamber, that we need to do better in PISA. Children are sitting their PISA tests right now. The point I'm making is we are harking back to something from 2022. It's time to move on. So, instead of looking back to one of the most—

What you're doing is making excuses.

—challenging times for learning and education in recent history. We should be focusing on the improvements in English and Welsh reading and numeracy made by our primary school learners in 2024, as seen in our personalised assessments. We should focus on the ongoing improvement in our GCSE and A-level results, which are now heading back to pre-pandemic levels. And I am disappointed by the relentless focus on challenges within the system, rather than ever taking the opportunity to celebrate achievements. Our teachers and staff in schools work hard to support our children and young people, our learners work hard in their lessons—they deserve better than this.

We know that the challenges they face are not unique to Wales. Countries around the world have experienced attendance and behaviour issues during and since the pandemic. I am pleased that, here in Wales, the attendance of our young people has now improved to 89.1 per cent. This is a positive improvement after a decline during and after the pandemic, and reflects a trend of increasing attendance we've seen over recent years and our investment in this work as a Government. Our schools and learners should be commended for the efforts they've put in to achieve this, because we know the reasons for poor attendance are complex.

Our behaviour summit in the summer also marked an important step towards building a collaborative approach to tackling behaviour challenges, and in July I published a report outlining next steps. We are making progress on those actions, including taking forward work on mobile phones, exclusions and detentions. We're also working with police and crime commissioners, following up on issues raised in our round-table on safety and violence. The discussions there were constructive, demonstrating a commitment on the part of the whole sector and our partners to challenge poor behaviour.

I am not complacent and I know that there is more to do. Our schools and teachers have asked us to focus on a smaller number of priorities, and I have confirmed that these are literacy, numeracy, well-being and inclusion. I've established a new professional learning organisation nationally, Dysgu, which will provide high-quality and evidence-based national professional learning in priority areas for all schools in Wales—a once-for-Wales approach. I have committed over £44 million over the next three years to provide curriculum support, including on literacy and numeracy—skills that unlock the wider curriculum. We also continue to support the systematic teaching of phonics through our new CAL:ON project, backed by £8 million over three years. And through this, we're ensuring that every practitioner has the tools and confidence to teach phonics effectively, helping every child find their voice in reading and writing. These programmes will move over to Dysgu over the coming months.

And if I could just respond to Natasha on Technocamps and be crystal clear with the Chamber that we have not withdrawn funding from Technocamps; all funding under our grant arrangement to Technocamps has been paid. They had two opportunities to apply for new funding under the computing and digital skills priority of our grants programme, but were unsuccessful on both occasions. That is because, as part of these grants, we are prioritising nationally coherent professional learning to ensure that professionals across Wales have access to high-quality professional learning. This was made clear to Technocamps, but on both occasions, their applications did not sufficiently reflect these priorities so that a new funding offer could be made. The process was rigorous, competitive and thorough, and was underpinned by a robust system of appraisal and moderation. During that time, we increased Technocamps's funding by £100,000 to extend their grant to the end of the academic year to allow them to meet bookings with schools. It was always made clear to Technocamps that there was no guarantee of future funding beyond this. And STEM Learning, the recipient of the grant, will be working closely with partners based in Wales, including See Science based in Cardiff, and will employ Wales-based advisers. All these curriculum grant programmes will eventually move over to Dysgu.

Tom Giffard to reply to the debate.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. Thank you to everybody who took part in today's debate. I was very grateful to hear all of those contributions, because I thought the contributions were very revealing about the state of education in Wales. It's clear that education in Wales has a real problem. We look at the worst PISA results anywhere in the United Kingdom—we look at those results, yet we have a Minister who says, 'It's time to move on.'

In her contribution, she took issue with the fact that the PISA results we were referring to were from 2022, yet she couldn't name a single instance, a single year, where those PISA results were taken where our results were any better than any other country, on any subject, compared to other parts of the United Kingdom. We've got the lowest PISA results anywhere in the UK, lower than lots of our European competitors. One in five children, as Natasha Asghar said, is leaving school functionally illiterate. It is a system that is fundamentally broken, with a Minister who is absolutely complacent about it, looking at the system and saying, 'Nothing to see here—time to move on.'

We have a real crisis in our education system, and the amendment, as laid by the Welsh Government today, only speaks to that. It talks about improving numeracy and reading in Wales. Well, it is still the worst anywhere in the United Kingdom. It talks about improving attendance; I welcome that, but it is still the worst anywhere in the United Kingdom. It talks about the systematic teaching of phonics. For too long, the Welsh Government pursued a discredited method, and it's only when attention was drawn to phonics by the Welsh Conservatives and by the media that the Welsh Government changed their tack.

We heard the Minister talking about signing up to PIRLS and TIMSS. Again, these are things that we called for this Minister to do, and eventually she has done it, but, unfortunately, a lot of the damage has been done. We hear also about the national summit on behaviour that took place from the Welsh Government—again, we've seen very little action off the back of that. And the schools that Gareth Davies and Sam Rowlands referred to, who are taking industrial action because of Labour inaction on school violence and discipline, are exactly evidence of that.

Now, the Welsh Conservatives believe that we can tackle this particular problem. We believe, fundamentally, to improve disruption and behaviour in our classrooms, we need to ban phones from the classrooms. And we should have absolutely zero tolerance and no excuses whatsoever for those who bring knives and other weapons into our schools in Wales. It is totally unacceptable, and there should be an automatic exclusion—no ifs and no buts on that.

But I think others listening to this debate today will look around the Chamber and wonder whether other parties have got the answers to improve our education system in Wales, and I thought Cefin Campbell's contribution was incredibly telling from a Plaid Cymru perspective. Do Plaid Cymru have the answers? [Interruption.] Well, we'll find out. Because it is clear, from what Cefin said—

It's thin gruel.

It's thin gruel, as Darren Millar says. But it is clear from what Cefin Campbell said that, where successes were seen over the border in England—. As he rightly identified, we saw successes in English schools. And why didn't Plaid adopt them here? Quote: because education is devolved. So, we see successes over the bridge, and yet we don't want to bring them here, because they happen in England. That is Plaid Cymru's warped ideology. They do not like seeing success that originates somewhere else. But we are not ashamed of it. We are not ashamed of our Government's record on education. On reading, English pupils became the best readers in the western world because of Conservative reforms. We're not embarrassed by that. We don't throw it to one side, like Plaid do, because it happened in England. That is absolutely a Conservative achievement, and these are the things that we need to see happening in Wales.

But never fear—never fear—Reform are here, Reform are here, and they've got a plan. I wrote it down. I'm sorry if anybody missed it, but I did write it down. The plan was: 'action', and 'enough is enough'. They were the two big Reform policies to come out of today's contribution. I'm happy to give way to the Member if I missed any of them. No, I don't think I did.

If the Member wants to give way, yes, of course, you will see all our policies very soon, and I'm sure you'll be very happy with them, as will the people of Wales.

Thank you. Well, between now and then, we shall have to suffice with 'action' and 'enough is enough' as Reform's policies when it comes to education, because Reform, of course, held a conference recently, where you'd think some of these policies would be being cooked up, right? You'd think some of Reform's policies, if they had something to say about education, would be being cooked up at their conference, but journalists who attended the Reform conference said, and I quote, that their conference 'didn't contain a single event'—not one event—'focusing solely on education.' Reform in Wales and Reform across the United Kingdom are completely rudderless. In Wales, they have no plan, they have no policies, they have no candidates, they certainly don't have a leader, and they have no clue whatsoever when it comes to how they want to run Wales.

Well, that leaves us with, I was going to say, the Liberal Democrats, but this is another debate that they couldn't be bothered to turn up to. So, this leaves us, this leaves the Welsh Conservatives, and we have got a clear plan, as you've heard from the contributions today. We will back parental choice, because parents and pupils know the best decisions that they can make for their children. That's why, all through our policies, all through the contributions today, you heard that word, 'choice': choice about the schools that our young people can attend, choice about the type of language they want to have their children attend schools in. We talked about more, about innovation in our schools, establishing academy schools to encourage that innovation. I'm sure, Jenny, you're about to list off many more Welsh Conservative policies for me.

I want to understand what you mean by this 'choice'. Does this mean that people are going to be able to crisscross our capital city, causing loads more air pollution? We want people to go to local schools and be able to walk or cycle to get there.

We want people to go to the best schools.

We want all our schools to be best schools, not just—[Inaudible.]

In your imagined two-tier system of education, how would you ensure that those not in academy schools receive the same standard of education, equity of provision and range of opportunities as those in what many would perceive as elite academy schools?

By raising the bar across our education system, Cefin, and, unfortunately, I will not take lessons from Plaid Cymru on this. When they look at successes elsewhere and decide not to pursue them, when they've spent 26 years with an ability to sort out our education system and they have been completely unable to because they've been too busy propping up a Welsh Labour Government.

So, look, it is clear: Plaid don't have the answers, Labour are the complacency at the centre of the system, the Lib Dems don't even bother to turn up, Reform are barely awake. It is the Welsh Conservatives that will fix education in Wales, just like we will fix Wales ahead of the next election. That is the choice when it comes to education: a serious party with a serious plan to turn our education system around, or a bunch of rabble that just aren't interested. Diolch yn fawr.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections. We will therefore move to voting time, unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung.

We will move to our first vote. The votes this afternoon are on item 8, the Welsh Conservatives debate on education outcomes. I call for a vote on the motion without amendment, tabled in the name of Paul Davies. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 14, one abstention, 35 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.

The next vote will be on amendment 1. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. So, I call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 10, no abstentions, 40 against. The amendment is, therefore, not agreed.

We will now vote on amendment 2, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt. Open the vote. [Inaudible.] I will therefore exercise my casting vote against the amendment, which means that—. There were 25 in favour, no abstentions and 26 against. Therefore, the amendment is not agreed.

That means that the motion and the amendments tabled were all not agreed. That concludes voting for today.

We will now move to the short debate, which is our next item.

Item 10 is the short debate in the name of Laura Anne Jones, safety, fairness and abiding by the law, the Supreme Court ruling on the meaning of 'sex' in the Equality Act 2010 and its importance for Wales. I call Laura Anne Jones.

Diolch, Llywydd, and diolch for letting me bring forward this debate on safety, fairness and abiding by the law, the Supreme Court ruling on the meaning of sex in the Equality Act 2010 and why it matters to Wales. I have allowed James Evans a minute of my time.

On 16 April, the UK Supreme Court did something remarkable in today's confused world: it clarified the truth. It said, clearly and unashamedly, that in the Equality Act 2010 the words 'man', 'woman' and 'sex' mean biological sex: not identity, not self-belief, not ideology—biological reality.

The truth matters, not just in London and Edinburgh, but here in Wales too, because our schools, our hospitals, our police, our councils can't apply the law properly if they can't even define what a woman is.

For years, we've seen confusion spread throughout our public sector, guidance after guidance, form after form, changing definitions, soft words replacing hard facts. Groups like Women's Rights Network Wales and Merched Cymru have been sounding the alarm here in Wales, trying to get through to the Government about the importance of making policy based on reality and on sex.

I too have many times questioned the Government on women's and girls' basic rights, centred around protecting women and girls and ensuring fairness—certainly not speaking out against anybody else. Everyone has the right to be whatever they want to be, but it must never be at the expense of women and girls. I, like those groups, WRN and Merched Cymru, was wrongly jeered at and threatened, when we simply wanted to protect half of the population and stand up for those hard-fought-for rights. Women have rights too, and the Supreme Court judgment is a vindication of that. But now the highest court in the land has spoken. Sex means sex, and it's time that every public body in Wales got the message and acted urgently to rectify any policies, measures or directives that differ from this lawful definition.

This isn't about stirring up culture wars. It's about common sense, fairness and safety. It's about the dignity of women and girls in hospital wards, changing rooms, refuges and prisons. It's about fair competition in women's sports, where biology decides who's fastest and strongest, not ideology. It's about restoring trust, trust that the law still means what it says and the Government serves the people, not campaign groups, and abides by the law.

Yet what have we seen from this Welsh Government? A short written statement, a vague few reassurances saying that you're waiting for guidance, and then silence. It's been 190 days since the Supreme Court ruling, yet there is still no plan, no audit and no clear guidance for Wales. Meanwhile, front-line staff are left terrified of saying the wrong thing, and women and girls are feeling let down by this Labour Government, and left wondering whether anyone still defends their rights here in Wales.

The WRN represent dozens of front-line organisations. They've published a manifesto calling for decisive action on women's rights in Wales. The time for waiting now is over, so today I'm calling for seven clear, practical steps—no committees, no consultations, just action. First, publish a clear Wales-wide compliance plan within weeks, showing exactly how NHS Wales, councils, schools and universities will bring forward their policies in line with the Supreme Court ruling. People need to know where they stand.

Second, audit every policy that wrongly treats gender identity as sex in hospital wards, prisons, changing rooms, safeguarding and searches, and fix it. Don't hide results—publish them.

Third, give schools proper guidance. Children should not be caught in an ideological crossfire. They should be taught facts. Schools must provide separate toilets and changing rooms for boys and girls, as the law requires, and loos for everyone.

I'd like to thank the Member for bringing this important debate to the Chamber today. Mine is more of a question for the Minister. It has been raised with me by parents that some schools across my constituency, and Wales, are still pushing ahead with implementing gender-neutral toilets and not providing single-sex toilets in schools. That's very concerning for me and very concerning, I'm sure, for the parents who contacted me. So, I'd like to hear, probably from the Minister in her response, just what the Welsh Government are doing to make sure that we do have those single-sex toilets available in our schools, because the law has been very clear: they have to be provided, to make sure we're protecting not just girls, but men also. Thank you.

The Cabinet Secretary to contribute—Jane Hutt.

Diolch, Llywydd, and I'd like to thank the Member for bringing forward this important topic on the Supreme Court ruling to the Chamber, and all those who've contributed to today's debate.

The Supreme Court ruled that references to 'sex', 'man' and 'woman' in the Equality Act 2010 refer to biological sex. As you've highlighted today, the crux of this issue is about doing what is right and making sure we, as a Government, get it right. We've always been clear that any action because of the judgment should comply with the law and should also be taken with respect, compassion and kindness towards all of those who may be affected by it.

It's vital that we engage fully in this process in a thorough and thoughtful manner, and this means adhering to our deeply held values in Wales of inclusion and upholding human rights for all citizens, as well as fully complying with the law. I outlined this in my letter to the chair of the Equality and Human Rights Commission in relation to the commission's consultation on the code of practice for services, public functions and associations. The Equality and Human Rights Commission has submitted the updated code of practice to the Minister for Women and Equalities and the Secretary of State for Education in September. The UK Government are now considering this code.

However, there are other steps that need to be taken before the code of practice is in place. The Minister for Women and Equalities and the Secretary of State for Education wrote to me on 12 October. Under section 14 of the Equality Act, the Secretary of State is required to consult Welsh Ministers before approving a draft code of practice. The code of practice will update requirements for compliance within public functions and services. So, that's an important update for the Member bringing this debate, and for the Chamber today. We received the draft code on 16 October and will provide the appropriate response to the UK Government's request.

It is also a legal requirement to carry out an equality impact assessment when developing policies or interventions. The equality impact assessment of the draft code of practice was requested by the UK Government of the EHRC in October, and the UK Government will decide whether to approve the code and lay it before Parliament for 40 days. The timeline will be set by the UK Government. So, Llywydd, this process is not as quick or as simple as it may sound, and as I've just outlined, it's not within the Welsh Government's gift to adopt the draft code of practice prior to due process being completed within the UK Parliament.

While waiting for this to come into force, in terms of the final code of practice, I want to assure Members that we're proactively taking action. We're working across Welsh Government to understand the impact on cross-Government policy areas, and to review policies and procedures to ensure we comply with the law. We want to get this right and we will fully comply with the law. And I'm proud to work in a Government for which the equality and human rights of all are a bedrock.

Will you take an intervention?

I'm just finishing now. I wanted to just make the final point that, as far as what we want in Wales for women—and I hope we can all agree on this today—we want a Wales where all women can have economic independence, and paid and unpaid work are valued; diverse women are fairly represented in positions of influence and empowered to play a meaningful role in society; all women are free from discrimination and free to live their lives as they choose; violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence stops; existing power structures that disadvantage women are challenged; and all women, men and non-binary people enjoy equal rights and protections and equality of outcome.

So, I hope we will all agree today that we must engage in respectful debate that recognises the perspectives of all. And I will say this finally, as I recall my written statement on this after the Supreme Court ruling: Lord Hodge said—he counselled—he gave the judgment and counselled

'against reading this judgement as a triumph of one or more groups in our society at the expense of another, it is not.'

And I hope we can move forward with that respect and compassion, and respect for each other, in this debate. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. That brings today's proceedings to a close.