Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee

That takes us on to item 2, the Development of Tourism and Regulation of Visitor Accommodation (Wales) Bill, an evidence session with the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language. Can I welcome the Cabinet Secretary? Do you wish to introduce your colleagues or do they want to introduce themselves?

I'm sure they can introduce themselves. We'll start with Rebecca.

Good morning. Rebecca Hawkins, head of licensing of visitor accommodation policy.

Bore da. Robbie Thomas, head of licensing of visitor accommodation.

Good morning. Dylan Hughes, I'm the first legislative counsel, one of the people who drafted the Bill.

Good morning. I'm Emma Anderson and I'm a Government lawyer.

Diolch. We'll move on to questions. The first one I've got is this: are you satisfied the Bill is within the legislative competence of the Senedd?

Chair, I am satisfied that the Bill is within competence. I was grateful to see the letter from the Llywydd to the First Minister on 3 November confirming that she too is satisfied that the Bill is within the competence of the Senedd.

Diolch. What consideration have you given to human rights issues when preparing the Bill?

Human rights issues are fundamental to the development of the Bill to ensure that we are compliant with the different articles that are required of us. The equality impact assessment that accompanies the Bill addresses the human rights issues directly. Those are summarised in the explanatory memorandum. Once again, I was glad to see that, in Llywydd's letter, she also did not raise any concerns in relation to the compatibility of the Bill with the European convention on human rights.

Thank you. Are you satisfied that the provisions allowing rights of entry to properties are compliant with human rights?

I am, because the powers of entry are not open-ended or unfettered. In the Bill, there are a series of tests that anybody seeking a power of entry will have to go through, and it is those tests that makes that power consistent with human rights. You would have to have a reasonable ground to begin with that an entry was necessary because a condition of a licence had been breached or the provider was providing false or misleading information. Even when you are satisfied that there are reasonable grounds, you then have to be satisfied in a second step that inspection—in other words, the need to gain entry—is the answer to those reasonable grounds. Then, if you reach a point where you do need to gain entry, you have to go to a magistrates' court in order to secure a warrant in order to be able to do that. So, there is a third test that you would have to pass. All of these are in the Bill in order to make sure that it is compliant with human rights legislation.

Diolch. Alun Davies.

Thank you very much, Chair. I'll try to run through some different questions to the ones you answered very fully last Thursday. I don't want to bore everybody to death by going through the same sort of territory. I'm very comfortable with the response provided by the Minister in his evidence to date on this Bill. I'm very comfortable with the structure and the architecture of the Bill. Perhaps it might be useful, Cabinet Secretary, for you to outline the genesis of the Bill, the development of the Bill. Are you comfortable that you have heard enough voices in the development of the Bill, and, as we go through the legislative process now—I've no doubt you've kept an eye on other evidence sessions the committees have been hearing—are you comfortable that you can respond to the additional points that have been made during this process?

Chair, thank you to Alun Davies for those questions. The genesis of the Bill lies in the manifesto that my party stood on in the 2021 election. There was a specific commitment in the manifesto to create a licensing scheme for tourism in Wales. That was confirmed in the programme for government, and it was further confirmed because it was one of the 47 items in the co-operation agreement between the Government and Plaid Cymru. So, the genesis of the Bill is long-standing and confirmed at successive points during this Senedd term.

The Bill has been consulted upon in one way or another in every single year of this Senedd term. There has been a long series of opportunities, particularly with the industry itself, to make sure that the Welsh Government was made aware of people's views and to adapt to the proposals—to take account of those. The policy has evolved over time in a number of important ways, Chair—if I could maybe just mention three of them very briefly.

In the very beginning, our ambition was to have a licensing scheme for the whole of tourism in Wales. What we have in front of us is a Bill that, on the face of the Bill, provides a regime for the licensing of self-contained and self-contained short-term-let accommodation. Three quarters of tourism providers in Wales offer that sort of accommodation, and the Bill provides a gateway to add further aspects of the tourism industry into the regime in future, should a future Senedd wish to do that.

We also had, in the very beginning, ambitions beyond the requirements that we set out in this Bill. We talked, in those days, of quality standards. In fact, we don't have quality standards in this Bill, but, once again, the Bill opens up the road to doing that in future. Those are two of the ways in which the Bill has responded to what we've heard so far.

I think, in more general terms, what the Bill is focused on is having a licensing regime that protects the reputation of tourism, a clear signal to visitors to Wales and in Wales of the standards they can expect, but tries to do it in a proportionate way that doesn't create an enormous bureaucratic burden on those businesses who, in many cases, have operated and operated successfully over many years.

I'm grateful to you for that. In terms of delivering the Bill and the legislation and the statutory framework it will create, is the Government confident that it has a far-sighted view of how the implementation process is going to work?

Well, I think we have a clear sight of how the implementation process will operate in relation to self-contained, self-catering, short-term-let accommodation, which is the sector of the industry that is directly on the face of the Bill, because there the Bill is now very clear about what will be expected of the industry. I'm conscious of the point Mr Davies made about not repeating everything that was said only a few days ago in front of another Senedd committee, but, Chair, just for context, the implementation of that part of the Bill I think will primarily be undertaken through the Welsh Revenue Authority, which is already responsible for the registration regime set up in the VAL Bill, the Visitor Accommodation (Register and Levy) Etc. (Wales) Bill.

The vast bulk of licences will be issued through as automatic a process as possible by the Welsh Revenue Authority. That's not on the face of the Bill, but I was clear with the previous committee about the direction of travel there. In the minority of cases where a more direct form of inspection or intervention is needed, the Bill leaves it open for Welsh Ministers in future to work either with local authorities, as is the case with Rent Smart Wales or with Visit Wales, because we have more than one possibility for that minority of cases where you will need someone to go and make a physical inspection of a premises in order to be confident either that it is or is not capable of being awarded a licence.

I'm grateful to you for that, Cabinet Secretary, and the policy approach you've described evolving over a number of years since the last election, and you've described how you've responded to the consultation processes that have taken place on different aspects of this policy field, shall we say, rather than just this Bill. To what extent have you relied on or been informed by Scotland's licensing scheme for short-term lets?

Well, Chair, we are informed by Scotland, of course, but we're informed by the differences between Wales and Scotland as well as the similarities. I was in Edinburgh earlier this year, and I met with the City of Edinburgh Council to talk to them about their visitor levy provisions. They expect to raise £50 million a year in Edinburgh alone from the visitor levy, and our estimate in the visitor levy Bill was that, if every part of Wales instituted a visitor levy, £33 million would be raised across the whole of Wales. So, the context can help you in some ways, but if you tried a direct reading, it would mislead you in others, because the impact of short-term visits to Edinburgh on the scale that Edinburgh faces is very different to anywhere in Wales.

I think there are two direct lessons that we have learned, and they're both things that we will not be doing the way that Scotland has done it. One is that ours is a national scheme, the same standards in every single part of Wales. If you're a provider of visitor accommodation in Wales, you will know what is required of you wherever you operate, and of course many visitor accommodation providers operate in more than one part of Wales. So, that was one of the messages to think of for Alun Davis's earlier question. One of the things we've learnt through the consultation process is that the industry itself, I believe, prefers to have a single scheme for Wales, and, secondly, that that national scheme should be nationally administered. So, in Scotland, you have a much more localised scheme and you have absolutely local administration. Every local authority in Scotland is a licensing authority in its own right, and what you will need to get a licence in one part of Scotland will not be the same as what you will need in another part of Scotland. That won't be the case in Wales. That's partly because of our scale. It's just easier to have a national scheme, and because of the WRA's role in registration, it's better, we believe, to have a national approach to licensing as well.

So, we've learnt lessons, some of them positive, things we will be doing that are broadly comparable to Scotland, and some things where we think we've learnt that there are different and better ways in the Welsh context.

I think that's very useful to understand, and I'm grateful to you for that, Cabinet Secretary. In terms of going to the sort of territory you'd expect this committee to deal with, are you satisfied that the Bill does strike the right balance between what is on the face of a Bill and what is provided for in terms of delegated powers?

Chair, I believe the Bill does strike that right balance, certainly on introduction. I'd be surprised if, by the time the Bill reaches Stage 4, that balance is identical to the balance that is set out at this point. I will be listening carefully to what this committee and others say about the balance between things that are on the face of the Bill and in regulations.

This is a very rapidly changing industry. Patterns of visitor usage, patterns of accommodation provision, have changed significantly over the last 10 years. We would expect that to happen in the future. You need a Bill that is able to stay up to date with the changing context without the Senedd having to legislate through primary legislation in order to do that, and I have been—. In the discussions I've had with my policy and legal colleagues, my emphasis has been on trying to make sure that the Bill works for the industry. Sometimes there are things where you might put something on the face of the Bill that actually create a straitjacket for the industry, and where regulations allow a different level of engagement with the industry. Most of the regulations we are talking about will be subject to consultation further to Senedd affirmation, and where the flexibility the regulations allow means that the Bill and its requirements will work better for the industry itself. Sometimes there've been choices between the two aspects you've suggested where my view was I'd resolve them in favour of what I think works for the industry, rather than the clarity that I know the Senedd would sometimes like to see in having things spelt out on the face of the Bill.

I accept fully that there is always that balance to be struck, and it may be struck in different places at different times with different pieces of legislation, but you're also aware that this committee is probably not a cheerleader for the sort of transfer of power from the Senedd to the Executive that regulation-making powers can sometimes represent. In terms of the Henry VIII power that you are taking to extend the licensing scheme to other accommodation, I can understand from your previous answer the coherence in doing so in terms of looking forward. But it does, of course, mean that the Minister does then have a significant power that can be used to reshape, if you like, the regulation or the licensing of the industry. I'm interested as to why you saw the need for this, to take this power in this particular way, and how you would envisage it being exercised.

Chair, you will know that the Government has come in front of this committee many times to rehearse these arguments, and we do probably take a different view at least in nuance. I would describe the Bill in a slightly different way to the way Alun Davies has, which is that the Bill prevents any Minister from extending the scope of the Bill in future without the express approval of the Senedd. The Bill allows Ministers to set up a licensing scheme for self-contained and short-term lets, but the Bill doesn't allow the Minister to go beyond that at all without the express approval of the Senedd. So, it's in the Senedd's hands, not in Ministers' hands, as to whether or not any further sectors are brought within the ambit of a licensing regime in Wales. What the Bill does is it opens up a pathway to that, should Ministers wish to bring proposals in front of the Senedd and the Senedd decide to approve that.

Now, I said to you earlier that the Bill is confined to self-contained short-term lets, and that's partly because other forms of tourism accommodation in Wales already have some aspects of a licensing regime already in place. Caravan and campsites have a licensing regime already. Hotels are more likely to be part of, albeit voluntary, a grading scheme and so on. It will be for a future Government to decide whether or not it would be worth while to extend the regime set out in this Bill to those forms of accommodation, but Ministers cannot do it on their own initiative. They can only do it with the express approval of the Senedd.

Through regulation-making powers rather than primary legislation—

Through, regulation-making powers, yes.

I accept there's a balance to be struck there. I don't have any further questions.

Diolch. Adam Price.

Good morning, Cabinet Secretary. As you've said, we played a part, of course, through the co-operation agreement in the process of getting to this point. On a personal level, I am entirely supportive of the objectives of the legislation. I have a number of rather technical questions related to specific sections of the Bill, which build upon the final set of questions from Alun Davies. Before I jump into those, just on a more general note, do you acknowledge that there is a difference between the usual regulation-making powers and the Henry VIII powers? Although there is a parliamentary consent process, they change the primary legislation through regulation, and that leads to an additional dimension in this trade-off that you referred to.

Thank you very much to Adam Price first of all for what he said about the co-operation agreement. As I said on the floor of the Senedd last week, I'm still grateful to Siân Gwenllian because she has remained interested in how the Bill's development after the agreement came to an end. Plaid Cymru's voice has been a significant one in the development of the Bill. So, thank you very much for that.

I do acknowledge the fact that the powers, where we use them through the Henry VIII process, are different to other processes. But, the fundamental thing is that, at the end of the day, it's in the Senedd's hands to agree whether those powers should be used.

Ministers can propose, but it's the Senedd that disposes. That is true of Henry VIII powers as it is of other forms of regulation making.

Can I just come in on this too, just to explain that one of the reasons why that specific power is included in the Bill is that there is quite a complex connection between the Bill and the legislation that's already been passed by the Senedd? So, the system has to align with the register and the wider provisions in the Bill related to the levy. The second thing is that, as we've designed the Bill initially for the kinds of properties that we're talking about, a lot of the technical things in the Bill are based on that. So, there will be things—. Once we extend, or if the Senedd extends the system to include hotels or to include caravan sites, it's likely that there will be wording in the Bill that won't be sufficiently clear. So, that's one of the reasons it's there—we felt that it was important for us to get it in there for those technical reasons.

Okay. Thank you for that explanation. Let us start with, therefore, section 24, which places a duty on Ministers to make regulations with regard to remedial notices with regard to breach of licence conditions. The question there is: did you follow this path of regulation simply because you had run out of time before you introduced the Bill?

No, that isn't the reason why we've done it in the way that the Bill does it at present. On the face of the Bill, there is a duty that's made clear. We have to create a process that is clear for other people in legislation when things must be done where people have acted in breach of their licensing conditions. But the way to do that, when we just do it in practical terms, is that that is going to come before the Senedd in the regulations. It wasn't the case that we'd run out of time; it's in that form because that was the best way for us to do it—to put the system on the face of the Bill, but to then work through the details with those people working in the field and bring them before the Senedd through regulations.

Am I right, therefore, to think that it was an intentional choice in the other examples where you've chosen regulation, rather than you had just run out of time?

Yes. With any Bill, if there is more time, there are other things that we can do, and there is more detail, but that's not the reason why we have created the Bill in the way that we have done.

Okay. Let's move on to section 25, which places a duty to make regulations in relation to the renewal of licences, and it also creates a provision in terms of possible offences, appeals and so on. Can you tell us why you believe that acting in this way was the best way, rather than placing this on the face of the Bill?

Thank you very much for the question.

Chair, I think this is one of those examples that does help to throw a light on the way in which the Bill has been constructed, because, when it comes to renewals of a licence, in many ways, the easiest thing for the Government to have done would have been to put on the face of the Bill a blunt instrument in which people who are seeking a renewal of a licence would have had to have provided all the information they had to provide when they were obtaining a licence. That would have been very simple, it would have been clear on the face of the Bill, but, in practice, I wanted to avoid a position where people were having to resubmit to the Welsh Government information the Welsh Government already had and already knew to be current, because a number of the things that you will need to demonstrate in order to obtain a licence are certificates that last for more than one year, for example. The licence only lasts for one year and so, when you come to renew it, I didn't want people to have to go and retell us things we already knew about. And if you want a renewals regime that is more subtle than simply, 'Tell us again what you told us in the first place', then I think you need the flexibility that regulations allow you in order to be able to design that with the industry, so that when it comes to a renewal, the industry has confidence.

One of the things the industry told us they were anxious about is that you might suddenly not have a licence. If the renewal process meant your licence wasn't renewed so that your licence was continuous, would that mean you'd suddenly have to stop taking bookings, because now there might be a week or two weeks when the licence hadn't been renewed, because they had so much stuff there to provide to you again to do it? So, I'm very keen we don't put the industry in that position, but that the renewal process is as straightforward and as simple as possible for the vast majority of providers. A regime on the face of the Bill, I don't think, is the best way to secure that. Regulations are the best way to secure that, because we will be able to do that alongside the industry. It is, of course, a duty on Welsh Ministers to come forward with these regulations, so they will be subject to the Senedd's approval.

As to the second point that Mr Price asked me, Chair, on the business of offences and appeals, if I could just make a general point that I made in front of the the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee: this is a Bill that sees enforcement as the last resort, not a first resort. We want a regime in which we are as helpful to the industry as possible, to allow the industry to be able to meet the obligations that will be put on it. So, we start with information, with training, with education, with encouragement, and we only get to a position where action would be taken against the provider when it is clear that the failure to do what is required is wilful—it's not because someone has made a mistake, it's not because someone is needing a bit more time to find the piece of evidence that you need them to provide; it's because, with all the steps that will already have been taken, someone is clearly not intending to do what the law requires. At that point, for the integrity of the system, you do need a system where there are offences and where those offences can be prosecuted in a proper way that preserves the rights of the person on the receiving end of that, and the Bill provides for that. But those are the long-stop, the backstop measures of this Bill. That's not the lens through which the Bill sees the industry. The Bill sees the industry as full of people doing a good job and trying to do the right thing, and this Bill is designed to help those people by making sure that those people who don't do the right thing aren't able to operate in a way that undercuts them and causes damage to their businesses.

I'm grateful for that response. Sections 26 and 27 permit Ministers to make regulations in relation to amending licences and issuing provisional licences. The question here, once again, is why not include these changes on the face of the Bill? Why also are these powers in the form of Henry VIII powers? Is it for the same reasons as have been referred to already, or is there another reason?

Well, Chair, I'll just explain first of all why the provisional element is in the Bill.

Provisional licences are a very small part of the regime, but an important part from the point of view of accommodation providers. So, to give you an example of where a provisional licence might be awarded—. I'm sure that members of the committee will be familiar with the pattern of investment in the tourism industry in Wales, which is that people invest during the winter. They spend a lot of money in the winter preparing for the part of the year when they will recoup money through the investment that they have made. It's why—sorry, to digress very briefly—the fact that COVID hit the industry in March was such a problem for tourism, because they had spent all the money already, and now they were faced with a season in which they weren't going to be able to recoup that money. So, you can imagine an accommodation provider who spends the winter refurbishing accommodation, bringing new accommodation into use. At that point, they can't have a licence because they have not yet got in place all the things that a licence will require, but they will want to advertise, they will want to be able to take bookings on the basis that, by the time visitors are in that accommodation, they will have a full licence. That's what a provisional licence is intended to do, to cover circumstances of that sort, where people are preparing accommodation for use but aren't yet in a position to actually have visitors in it. We put it on the Bill because we think it's in the interest of the industry to do that.

There are powers in the Bill to amend licences as well. They're in regulations because, again, we want to be able to design those powers to meet the many and various circumstances of the industry. Again, maybe just to give one example to the committee to illustrate why you need that flexibility, many farms in Wales are also visitor accommodation providers, short-term let providers. You can imagine a farm where there is a cottage that is being let, where there is a barn conversion that is used, or where there's some other form of accommodation. It will be one licence as the accommodation provider. You don't want to be in a position where, if a problem crops up in one of those buildings, the whole of the licence becomes invalid. So, the point of amendments is to be able to respond flexibly to the needs of the industry. If one of those buildings had a problem for some reason, you wouldn't want the farm to not be able to allow visitors into other forms of accommodation that they have on the same site. So, you'd want the accommodation provider to be able to make an application for amendment of a licence in order to continue to operate with the things they can operate with, and to put right the things that need to be put right. And I see amendments as being much more likely to be the result of applications from the industry, and they are on those rare occasions when enforcement action will require a change to the licence to enable things to be, well, brought in line. Because you are dealing with that level of complexity, and because it is impossible to predict all the circumstances in which these practical provisions will be necessary, that’s why I think it is better to have these things in the regulation part of the Bill rather than on the face of the Bill. And the Henry VIII issue is, as described earlier by Dylan, because of a complex interrelationship between the visitor levy Bill and this Bill, remembering that, in the very beginning, they were intended to be one Bill, and they were severed in order to bring the register of provisions into operation earlier on in the Senedd term.

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary, for that response. Section 29, if I may turn to that particular section, gives a power to Welsh Ministers to require information from various sources in relation to different functions under the Bill. Do you expect this power to be used in relation to the promotion of tourism functions of Welsh Ministers in Part 2 of the Bill?

No, I don't, Chair. In my opinion, the powers in section 29 are there for Parts 3 and 4 of the Bill, and I don't see those powers being used for the things in Part 2.

Well, that is fairly—well, completely—clear, if I may so. Sections 52 and 53 create further powers for Welsh Ministers to create offences in regulations. This general question of creating offences in regulations is controversial, if I may put it that way, or it raises wider questions. Why do you consider it appropriate to create offences through secondary legislation in this case, and, again, why Henry VIII powers? Is there an additional reason, different from the general reason that was given earlier?

Well, thank you for the question. I can see, and I agree, that there are some general things here in the question. But, in sections 52 and 53, we're talking about specific things in the Bill.

The two sections, Chair, deal with very particular sets of circumstances, and unusual sets of circumstances—circumstances that appear in the visitor levy Bill as well—where we are doing that business of trying to ensure that the two pieces of legislation are as aligned as possible. These are regulations that deal with transfers of businesses as going concerns, for example. You do need to make sure that, when those very unusual circumstances come into play—. Where there has been a death of a visitor accommodation provider for example, what happens then? And while they are rare, you do need to make sure that those things are done in a proper way, that they're not vulnerable to improper actions. And that's why the Bill provides for a regime of criminal offences in relation to those very particular sets of circumstances, and that's why the Bill allows for the penalty regime to be designed to meet those very unusual circumstances. And that's why they don't appear on the face of the Bill, because you'll need to design them to make sure you've captured all the issues that are at stake in those. There are three examples in the Bill of those anomalous circumstances, and they're the same as you would find in the visitor levy Bill.

And they have been designed as Henry VIII powers for the same reason as we heard earlier—

Yes, for the same reasons that Dylan explained when we were talking about both Bills and trying to bring them together in the way that they work.

There is one other reason. When we talk about powers of this kind, we have a choice when we're drafting. We can either put everything in regulations, and you look at the regulations to see the law, or, there is another way of doing it, where, if you're content that what is in the Bill already—or in the Act, as it will be at that point—conveys 90 per cent of what is needed, potentially then you can say, 'Right, well, instead of creating a separate system or regime in regulations, we can deal with these points through amending the Bill,' if it's possible to do that in a tidy way and a succinct way. So, there is an element of choice in terms of what's best in terms of the accessibility of the law. We don't expect to use these Henry VIII powers very often, and maybe not at all, but they're there in order to—. There is a technical element there, but there's also an element of accessibility of the law.

Thank you for that explanation. If I can turn to section 27(2), which contains a Henry VIII regulation-making power in relation to provisional licences. It is subject to the Senedd annulment procedure. Why did you conclude that this is the appropriate procedure for the use of the power?

Well, I think it's, Chair, because provisional licences are not intended to change the principles of the licensing system. They'll operate very much in the context that I described earlier. Just as there are a number of instances in the development of the Bill where there is a proper debate to be had about what is on the face of the Bill and what is in regulations, there is a separate debate that goes on all the time as to whether or not powers should be exercised—and I'm always now failing to keep up to date with the Senedd's new terminology here—not through the annulment process but by the approval process. At this point, the Government's view is that, in relation to provisional licences, the annulment process is sufficient to allow the Senedd to debate those instances where it thinks those powers are being used in a way that needs the Senedd's oversight. But I'm very open to the committee's views on a number of these points. I think these are going to be powers used very rarely, and, where they are used, they will be, essentially, operational. And whether the Senedd feels that it needs to use its time in having direct oversight of that every time it happens, I'm not sure. But I am definitely—. There are a number of points where the argument is closely balanced. This is how we've resolved it. At this point, I'm interested, as always, in what the committee would say about that.

If we can turn, therefore, to section 40(4), which also creates Henry VIII regulation-making powers in terms of amendments relating to the licensing of campsites and caravan sites. So, there are two questions there: once again, why was the annulment procedure chosen? And also, why is this power needed at all? Can you say something about that?

Well, thank you very much for the question, because the powers here are of interest, because they do deal with that general point that we were trying to make earlier about how we can do more in future if a future Senedd wants to do so. At present, campsites and caravan sites aren't under the auspices of the system that the Bill creates, but there is a system there already for caravans and people who use campsites, and that is under long-standing legislation on the statute book, going back to 1936.

If a future Senedd were to decide to bring caravan and camping sites under the regime created in this Bill, then these powers exist to make sure that there would be a smooth transition between what is there already and what would be needed in the future, because the type of licensing regime that is in place for campsites and caravan sites is not the same necessarily as the way that the Bill sets it out, and the way in which that licensing regime is implemented is a local authority responsibility, so there are differences between one part of Wales and another. What we're trying to achieve here is a smooth transition between a legacy regime and a new regime, were a future Senedd to wish to bring those forms of visitor accommodation under the sort of licensing regime that we are talking about here.

Again, on the issue of which process should be used, I think that the case for the annulment procedure is probably stronger here than in the last instance we talked about, because, were a future Senedd to bring caravan sites and campsites under a licensing regime, that would be the big decision; the big decision would be to bring them within the new regime. That would require consultation, that would require a vote on the floor of the Senedd. And the power in section 40(4) is only exercisable once the Senedd has already made that decision. And what this power is is just a practical way of giving effect to the decision that the Senedd would have made. So, I don't think you would necessarily need the same level of scrutiny over this decision, which really can only happen when the Senedd has had the bigger debate. And it can only be used—it's a power that can only be used—for the narrow purpose of integrating the existing and future licensing regimes. So, it's there for that important purpose, but it's a narrow purpose, and it can only come into play when the Senedd has made the bigger decision, which is to bring that form of visitor accommodation under the regime that the Bill sets up.

It may be helpful for me just to explain. The conditions in subsection (2) reflect the difference between what's possible under the 1936 Act and the 1960 Act—1936 for campsites and 1960 for caravans—and what's possible under the Bill. So, paragraphs (a),(b) and (c) convey that difference, and, as the Cabinet Secretary was explaining, the idea is that we would be able to keep everything the same, to all intents and purposes, in terms of the possible conditions, and the power in this case is to do with tidying things up in terms of only those paragraphs, those conditions. So, it's very narrow.

Thank you. And finally, therefore, from me, section 55 sets out the power for Welsh Ministers to issue statutory guidance on the licensing scheme. There is no Senedd procedure attached to this proposed power at the moment. Therefore, the question is: is this appropriate? And that's a broader discussion in terms of whether there should be a formal Senedd consent process in relation to statutory guidance.

Wel, diolch i Adam Price am y cwestiwn yna. Beth rydyn ni'n gwneud yn y Bil yn y maes yna yw beth rŷn ni'n ei wneud bob tro, dwi'n meddwl. Y Senedd sy'n gyfrifol am y Bil, am y system newydd. Dydy'r canllawiau stadudol ddim yn newid dim byd mae'r Senedd wedi penderfynu, maen nhw jest yn helpu pobl yn y maes i ddeall y cyfrifoldebau newydd a sut bydd y system yn gweithio ac yn y blaen. Mae dyletswydd ar Weinidogion Cymru i greu canllawiau statudol, ond dydyn nhw ddim yn creu dim byd newydd am y gyfraith ac yn y blaen; bydd y Senedd wedi penderfynu popeth fel yna yn barod. Dwi ddim yn meddwl bod achos cryf i'r Senedd drio cadw llygad ar y canllawiau hefyd, achos mae'r canllawiau jest yn dod yn syth mas o bopeth mae'r Senedd wedi penderfynu yn barod.

That's interesting. I can't provide an example right now, but would the Cabinet Secretary accept that in some contexts, the statutory guidelines in some areas could provide new information on something that the legislation is quiet on? As far as these guidelines go, they only set out, for accessibility and the understanding of different stakeholders, et cetera, what's in the legislation. They don't create policy; they don't create anything new.

The purpose of the duty in the Bill is to set things out for people working in this field in terms of what the Senedd has already decided, not to expand that, not to create new policies or new provisions. Because we are creating a new regime here that doesn't exist at present, the guidance is there to help people in the field to understand what the Senedd has decided and how to implement it, and nothing else.

There's a difference here. It's important to consider the difference between guidelines and a code of practice. A code of practice can do what you've just explained, but guidance is more restricted. Guidance means that we're trying to explain how this legislation is working. To go back to COVID again, I'm sure you remember the arguments with regard to the use of guidance instead of regulations. I'm glad to say that I think we did that once, but we didn't do it after that. It happened more in other places. But as the Cabinet Secretary said, we're talking about an explanation here.

Okay. Diolch. Sam.

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd, and good morning, Cabinet Secretary. I've challenged you before around codification in the Chamber around this Bill, but could you just explain a little further as to what other legislation will form part of the code relating to tourism law, and what do you believe will be achieved by this approach?

Thanks to Sam Kurtz again for pursuing this issue, Chair. To be clear, the code will consist of this Bill, the Visitor Accommodation (Register and Levy) Etc. (Wales) Act 2025 and any secondary legislation made under them. The Bill does, though, also repeal and restate the relevant provisions from the Development of Tourism Act 1969 and the Tourism (Overseas Promotion) (Wales) Act 1992, bringing the relevant provisions into the code.

Those are the pieces of legislation that, at this point, come under the ambit of the code. Were, to go back to a discussion we were having a few minutes ago, caravan sites and campsites to be brought within the ambit of the licensing regime, then that would bring the 1960 and 1936 Acts into play as well. But they won't form part of the code at this point, because campsites and caravan sites are not part of the licensing regime.

On Sam Kurtz's second point, what is the point of all of that, essentially it is to improve the accessibility of the law, because the Senedd has an established policy of trying to make the law clear, phrased in contemporary language, bilingually available and available in one place, rather than requiring the citizen to chase around in various parts of the statute book to try and make sense of what the law requires of them in any area.

Thank you for that, Cabinet Secretary. Moving on to Part 2 of the Bill, it restates a number of existing Welsh Minister powers in relation to the promotion of tourism in Wales. Can I ask why did you take this approach in the Bill and what changes are you proposing to those powers?

The restatement powers are not intended, in the most part, to change powers that are available to the Welsh Ministers, but to do what I said in my last answer: to improve the accessibility of tourism legislation, bringing everything into that one place. The Bill does, however, augment the powers available to Welsh Ministers in a couple of limited instances.

The Bill does introduce requirements to have regard to the importance of mitigating the social and environmental impacts of tourism and maintaining and promoting the Welsh language. Those aspects do not appear in the legislation that is being restated in this Bill, but they are consistent with the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 and, in the sense I said earlier, trying to use contemporary language, echo the language used in the visitor levy Act as well.

Finally, Chair, there is an express power to issue a code of practice in the Bill. Actually, we believe that you could have done that under general tourism development powers, so although we are making it explicit in this Bill, explicit power in its own right, it probably does belong to the restatement of powers that were available to us already, but just made clearer in this Bill.

Can I just explain a little bit more, just to give a little bit more context to the decision to put the provisions about the code in? There are two main aspects to it. One is that we realised that, through this Bill and through the levy Bill, there was a lot of new legislation that you would describe as relating to tourism.

The second reason is that we realised that the only thing left was in the Development of Tourism Act 1969. Those provisions—the general powers to promote tourism—were actually first conferred upon the Wales Tourist Board. The reality is that not only were they very old and monolingual, they didn't make a huge amount of sense. They were very complicated because of the limitation of the powers that we had at the time when we abolished the tourist board. This was an opportunity, really, to bring everything together.

The other thing that the committee might be interested in is that this is a little bit novel, because normally when we come forward with the suggestion that we create a code, it's in the circumstances where we've consolidated the law. The codes that you'll be familiar with relating to the historic environment and planning both involved wholesale consolidation of the law and imposition of the discipline of the code. This is a little bit different, because two new pieces of legislation are being described as a code. But it's the same result, and we think that we should take these opportunities when we can as well.

In relation to the practicality of what is a code, very briefly—I know the Counsel General has talked about this and the committee's heard this before—it will be that everything is published together in one place and described as a code, so you get the sense that this is comprehensive. Then, the second aspect of it, we hope, will be that Standing Orders will be changed so that, in future, in any departure from the structure of the code—so, in other words, if you want to come forward with a new Bill on legislation—the expectation is that you will amend the legislation that already exists, so that you don't have a proliferation of legislation in relation to the same topic, and there would be an onus on the Member in charge to explain any decision to move away from the structure that we've put together.

Thank you. Chair, I'm conscious of time. Do you want me to continue to pursue the line of questioning, given the time?

If the Cabinet Secretary is willing to go on an extra five minutes, I think we can. We're going to run out of time before we run out of questions. Have you got time to do a couple more questions until 12:05?

Yes.

Thank you. Back to you, Sam.

Thank you, Chair. Diolch, Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet. I'm hoping for a couple of examples of circumstances from you now, Cabinet Secretary, around section 14(2) of the Bill, which indicates that two or more licences may have effect concurrently in respect of the same premises.

I think I can recall the explanation I was offered for this. I will try and convey it to you and then I will rely on others alongside me to put me right if I fail to remember it correctly. I think these are very rare circumstances. But to give you the example I remember, imagine a premise that is let the year round. Over the winter months, it is let not on a short-term basis, but for a six-month period. In the summer period, it is let on a short-term basis. A licence will be needed for the short-term lets in the summer months. Now imagine that the person who has the six-month occupation decides to sublet part of the accommodation on a short-term basis. They will now need a licence for that activity as well. Licences are issued for a 12-month period, so there will be two different licences and they will both be in operation concurrently, because of the way the system works. That's the example I think I remember being offered to explain why you can have two licences for the same premises. You can see from the answer that these are not circumstances that seem likely to arise often, but they are there to account for the complexity of the landscape.

Your colleagues are nodding, so I think you've—

Are they? I'm hugely grateful.

Finally, Sam.

Thank you, Chair. I'm sure, Cabinet Secretary, we'll write to you with some further questions, given that we've been beaten on time today, if that's okay. But finally from me, talking around section 29(5) of the Bill, which makes provision around the admissibility of information submitted by a person in response to an information notice issued under subsection (1), it provides that, subject to specific expectations, such information is not admissible in criminal proceedings. Can you confirm the rationale for including subsection (5) in the Bill?

It takes us right back to your original questions to me, because this is a human rights issue and it reflects article 6 of human rights legislation in relation to the right to a fair trial. What these provisions do is to ensure that someone subject to an information notice is protected from self-incrimination. That is a standard protection in criminal proceedings and that's why it's here in this Bill too.

Thank you, Chair.

Can I thank the Cabinet Secretary and his colleagues for coming along and giving evidence to us today? As Sam Kurtz just said, we've run out of time, but not run out of questions. If we send you the written questions, would it be possible for you to reply to us?

Of course.

As you know, you'll be sent a copy of the transcript to check for factual accuracy.

Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you very much.

Thank you very much. Diolch yn fawr.

In accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi) and (ix), I invite the committee to resolve to exclude the public from items 4, 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13 today. Do Members agree? Thank you very much.

Can I welcome the public back to this session of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee following our evidence session this morning with the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language? Item 5: instruments that raise issues to be reported to the Senedd under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3. The Infrastructure Consent (Miscellaneous Amendments) (Wales) Regulations 2025: these regulations make corrections to several pieces of secondary legislation that implement, and provide details of the processes required under, the Infrastructure (Wales) Act 2024, in response to points raised by this committee in its reports. Senedd lawyers have identified one technical and two merits reporting points. A Welsh Government response has not yet been received. First, we have Jen from our legal team. Would you like to run through the reporting points?

Thank you, Chair. The technical reporting point is noted in relation to defective drafting, as it notes that the year 2025 is omitted from the title of the regulations that are amended by regulation 2. There are also two merits points noted. These relate to the corrections that are made to the Infrastructure Consent (Pre-Application and Application Procedure and Transitional Provisions) (Wales) Regulations 2025. The points note that, although the issues raised in this committee's report on those regulations are largely addressed by regulation 2 of these regulations, a point relating to the use of defined terms hasn't been addressed in full, and another point regarding an inconsistency between the Welsh and English text does not appear to have been addressed by these regulations. A Welsh Government response has been requested in relation to all of the reporting points.

Thank you, Jen. Any Members have anything to raise? No. We agree the reporting points, then, and move on to item 5.2, the Vehicle Emissions Trading Schemes (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2025. This Order makes amendments to the Vehicle Emissions Trading Schemes Order 2023, which established four new trading schemes that limit or encourage the limitation of carbon dioxide emissions resulting from the registration of new cars and light commercial vehicles. Senedd lawyers have identified one technical and one merits reporting points. A Welsh Government response has not yet been received. Jen, would you take us through the reporting points?

Thank you, Chair. The report notes that the technical point is that the Order has not been laid bilingually as it is also subject to scrutiny by the other UK legislatures. A merits point also notes that the UK Climate Change Committee was consulted in relation to this Order and has published its advice on this Order. No Government response has been requested in relation to those reporting points.

Thank you very much. Any Members? No.

Affirmative resolution instruments. We can group the following two items for convenience: the Land Transaction Tax (Modification of Special Tax Sites Relief) (No. 2) (Wales) Regulations 2025 and the Land Transaction Tax (Modification of Special Tax Sites Relief) (No. 3) (Wales) Regulations 2025. These regulations amend Schedule 21A to the Land Transaction Tax and Anti-avoidance of Devolved Taxes (Wales) Act 2017. Schedule 21A provides for a relief from land transaction tax for qualifying transactions of land within a special tax site. Under paragraph 2 of that schedule, the relief currently applies to designated areas comprising the Celtic Freeport and the Ynys Môn Freeport. The No. 2 regulations extend the relief to further sites in Ynys Môn, and the No. 3 regulations extend the relief to the Flintshire and Wrexham investment zone, and both regulations take effect from 21 November this year. Senedd lawyers have identified one technical and two merits reporting points for each regulations. Welsh Government responses have not yet been received. Over to you, Jen.

Thank you, Chair. Both technical reporting points in relation to both sets of regulations relate to the potential for confusion as to the time of day at which these regulations come into force. The merits points are also the same for both sets of regulations. The first merits point notes that the Welsh Revenue Authority has to pay land transaction tax it collects into the Welsh consolidated fund, but the regulations extend special tax site relief from land transaction tax to identified sites or zones until 30 September 2029. The second merits point notes that the reliefs that are covered in these regulations are subsidies that have been registered and notified to the Competition and Markets Authority. The Welsh Government response that is awaited is in relation to the technical reporting points for each set of regulations only.

Thank you, Jen. Any Members? No. Are we happy to agree these reporting points? Yes.

Item 6 is instruments that raise issues to be reported to the Senedd under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3—previously considered. The Climate Change (Net Welsh Emissions Account Credit Limit) (Wales) Regulations 2025. We can group this with the following item as well, which is the Climate Change (Carbon Budget) (Wales) Regulations 2025. The committee considered these instruments at its last meeting and laid its reports the same day. Members are invited to note the Welsh Government responses to the reports, in which the Welsh Government states that the instruments have been withdrawn and that revised instruments will be laid tomorrow in order to keep to the same timeline for debate. Jen, have you got anything to say?

Nothing to add. Thank you, Chair.

Just a question: will we be having this before next week, if they've laid them tomorrow?

Can I come back to you on that?

Yes, please do.

Item 7 is notifications and correspondence under the inter-institutional relations agreement. Correspondence from the Welsh Government—meetings of inter-ministerial groups: letter from the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs, Inter-Ministerial Group for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, 5 November 2025. We have one notification this week of an inter-ministerial group meeting taking place. The Deputy First Minister informs us that a meeting of the Inter-Ministerial Group for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs will be held on 24 November, and that he'll be chairing the meeting. He states that

'The meeting is expected to focus on water quality, the EU-UK Common Understanding Agreement, Fishing and Coastal Growth Fund, and CO2 supplies.'

If Members have no comments, we’ll go on to the next item.

Correspondence from the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs: the Control of Mercury (Amendment) Regulations 2025. The Deputy First Minister informs us of his intention to consent to these regulations being made by the UK Government, unless any concerns are raised by us today. He says that the regulations will be made and laid in the UK Parliament on 2 December and are expected to come into force on 23 December. He states that he considers it

'appropriate for the substance of the UK Government amendments to apply to Wales, as timely implementation will ensure compliance with our international obligations under the Minamata Convention on Mercury.'

He adds that

'legislating separately for Wales would not be the most appropriate way to give effect to the necessary changes.'

Have Members got any comments? No.

Written statement and correspondence from the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs: the Producer Responsibility Obligations (Packaging and Packaging Waste) (Amendment) Regulations 2025. Following on from his letter of 20 October that we considered in last week's meeting, the Deputy First Minister now informs us that he has given consent to the UK Government to make and lay these regulations. The regulations will amend the existing UK-wide scheme, which ensures producers cover the costs of managing packaging waste, promoting consistency and the polluter-pays principle across all nations. Do Members have any comments? No.

Item 8 is papers to note. Correspondence from the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government to the Local Government and Housing Committee: Homelessness and Social Housing Allocation (Wales) Bill. The Cabinet Secretary has responded to the recommendations made by the Local Government and Housing Committee in its report on the Bill. The Cabinet Secretary refers to some of the recommendations made by this committee in her response, and notes that these were accepted in principle. Do Members have any comments? No.

We'll move on to the next item—written statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language: Welsh Government draft budget 2026-27. The Cabinet Secretary’s written statement informs us about the publication of the Welsh Government’s detailed draft budget for 2026-27, along with supporting documents. We are expecting a response to our letter requesting information about the draft budget insofar as it relates to our remit soon. Do Members have any comments? No.

Written statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language: consultation on legislative proposals relating to the Welsh tax Acts. The Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language informs us that the Welsh Government has launched a public consultation in relation to legislative proposals to amend the Welsh tax Acts. The Cabinet Secretary states that the proposed changes are technical in nature and are intended to

'clarify, enhance and future-proof our devolved tax legislation and to support wider public service delivery in Wales.'

This consultation is separate to another consultation launched recently, which is exploring the process for making future changes to the devolved tax legislation. The consultation will close on 26 January next year. Do Members have any comments? No.

Written statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales: UK Railways Bill. The written statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales informs us that this Bill has been laid before the UK Parliament. He states that the Welsh Government has worked closely with the UK Government

'to deliver a number of outcomes to ensure the bill achieves the best deal for Wales.'

He says that, due to the collaborative working, a clause has been included in the Bill that provides for the development of a memorandum of understanding between the Secretary of State for Transport and Welsh Ministers, which is expected to be published in spring 2026. He states that this clause will strengthen

'accountability in the delivery of rail services across the Wales and Borders area.'

Do Members have any comments? No.

Correspondence from the Counsel General and Minister for Delivery: the Legislation (Procedure, Publication and Repeals) (Wales) Act 2025 (Commencement and Transitional and Saving Provisions) Order 2025. The Counsel General has written to us drawing our attention to the making of this Order, which brings the remaining provisions of the 2025 Act into force. These provisions include those that amend the Legislation (Wales) Act 2019 by inserting provision about Welsh statutory instruments and the Senedd procedures for Welsh subordinate legislation; provision about the publication, preservation, numbering and classification of Acts of Senedd Cymru, Welsh statutory instruments and other subordinate legislation made by the Welsh Ministers; provision requiring the Counsel General to review the operation and effect of the new Parts of that Act; and provision requiring the Welsh Government’s programme to improve the accessibility of Welsh law to include proposals for correcting any errors or resolving any ambiguities in Welsh law. In accordance with the Order, these provisions will come into force on 1 January 2026. Senedd lawyers are considering the Order and will provide a draft report for us to consider if appropriate at a future meeting. Do Members have any comments? No.

Item 8.6, correspondence from the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language: the Non-Domestic Rating (Chargeable Amounts) Regulations 2025. The Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language has written to us drawing our attention to the potential need for these regulations. If they are needed, he says that draft regulations will be developed quickly to ensure they meet the 31 December commencement deadline. They are likely to be laid no earlier than 9 December, with the intention to have the Plenary debate on 16 December. This would therefore require expedited scrutiny by this committee. Do Members have any comments they wish to make? No.

As agreed earlier at item 3, we now move into private session for the remainder of today's items.