Plenary

The next item will be questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care. The first question is from James Evans.

I am encouraged to see that ambulance response times and ambulance patient handover performance have improved in recent months. I expect ambulance response times to reduce further across Wales with sustained handover improvement.

Thank you for your response, Cabinet Secretary. Many people in my constituency feel abandoned when it comes to ambulance cover. I've heard numerous cases from constituents, some of them waiting hours on the floor for an ambulance. Actually, the new way the system works is that a lot of the Powys ambulances are based in other parts of Wales, sometimes leaving my constituency and the whole of Powys with no ambulance cover whatsoever.

I know this is especially felt when it comes to stroke services. We all know that we have to act fast in terms of stroke and make sure that people get that timely care. But many people in my constituency are facing over an hour and a half just to get to the nearest hospital. We're seeing stroke services move further away: Hereford's are going to Worcester, Merthyr's down to Llantrisant, and now Bronglais services could be moving further north or even further south. This is going to put more strain on people in my constituency. We don't even have the air ambulance anymore covering our area, which is a huge shame.

Cabinet Secretary, I'd like to know from you what specific and urgent action you are going to take to make sure that the constituents that I represent in Brecon and Radnorshire and the constituents of Powys as a whole can have adequate ambulance cover, to make sure that when they phone for help, help is on the way.

The average ambulance response time performance for people in the amber category in Powys has been the fastest in Wales for the past three months. The average response time in September in Powys was one hour and 18 minutes, which is 15 minutes faster than the national average. In relation to the purple and red response performance, the return of spontaneous circulation rate, which is one of the new measures, for residents in Powys was above the national average in September. In the health board area during September, the median time to identify cardiac arrest was just over one minute.

We will obviously want to do whatever we can to build on that progress in all parts of Powys. There is significant investment, as the Member will be aware, in relation to the 'Six Goals for Urgent and Emergency Care' programme, and the ambulance patient handover target of 45 minutes is being improved on right across Wales, which is good progress. I want to see that happening faster, but we are seeing very good signs of progress in all parts of Wales.

Cabinet Secretary, there are some horrific reports of people waiting completely unacceptable times for an ambulance. There is a recent account in Montgomeryshire of someone showing symptoms of a stroke waiting for five hours for an ambulance. So, I don't quite recognise what you said in your earlier answer.

Response times are going to get worse without Government intervention. The Welshpool and Caernarfon air ambulance bases are set to close. This will mean that dozens of communities across mid and north Wales will have slower response times for emergency intervention. I will ask you: will you intervene to ensure that these bases don't close?

If not, as part of the proposed changes, so-called mitigation measures were announced, including the deployment of additional road vehicles for areas of mid and north Wales. That would still fall well short of what is truly needed. However, can you confirm, health Secretary, that, as promised, no Wales air ambulance bases will close across Wales until those additional emergency road vehicles have been deployed and are in place?

I am sorry to hear about the Member's constituent's experience about the long wait. That is obviously unacceptable, but the data that I provided is accurate data and does reflect that, in the amber category, in Powys, there has been the fastest response in Wales for the past three months, which I think is positive. Obviously, we want to see even better performance in all parts of Wales.

He will know that there has been a judgment of the Court of Appeal in relation to the service change. The matter has now been fully litigated, having had the Court of Appeal's decision to refuse leave to appeal to the High Court. So, the legal understanding and the legal analysis of the decision is now complete. The Member will be aware that it is not a decision of the Welsh Government, and it would not be appropriate for it to be.

The Member rolls his eyes, but I am sure that most Members do not want me to be deploying ambulances from my office right across Wales. There is a well-established mechanism for doing this at the local level, which reflects the needs of local populations. The decision taken has been one of the NHS Wales Joint Commissioning Committee, but it does reflect the policy expectations of the Welsh Government, to ensure equitable access and the best possible outcomes for service users right across Wales.

Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board were awarded funding under the integration and rebalancing capital fund in January this year to develop a business justification case for the Waunfawr primary care hub. My officials await the submission of the business case to progress further with the scheme.

Doctors and patients at the Waunfawr surgery have been campaigning for 20 years to have new healthcare facilities. It is entirely unfair that the excellent doctors at the practice have to see patients in portakabins, in corridors, and even in the kitchen.

A new plan has been in place for some time, but I've asked you in this Chamber—not you personally, but I've asked in this Chamber time and time again—for a progress report on that plan. There is great concern again now, locally, that the new centre won't go ahead. There is no sign at all that the construction work has begun in the short term. The planning consent is in danger of running out, and that then is going to lead to greater delay.

So, to be entirely transparent, will you look into what has gone on, explain to people locally what has taken place and, more importantly, drive forward this project, so that there are new facilities developed as a matter of urgency in Waunfawr?

The fund that provides funding for this kind of redevelopment, the integration and rebalancing capital fund, as I said in my initial response, is operational across north Wales and across the whole of Wales. There are some 15 schemes in north Wales and around 38 across Wales, so the fund is working to do the work that it needs to do.

In terms of Waunfawr specifically, the proposal is interesting and it's important. We know that this can improve provision for patients, but it'll also be more attractive for doctors. And we also know that, in terms of value for money, there are opportunities there too. At the moment, the business case is going through the governance processes within the health board, and we're expecting an update from them in the next few months.

Justified frustration and anger have been expressed over the lack of progress by Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board in developing a new purpose-built surgery with improved access, parking and community space in Waunfawr, Gwynedd, to replace the current cramped and unsuitable premise. This is a region-wide issue, replicated, for example, in Hanmer surgery, south Wrexham, who continue to fight a similar battle more than 11 years after the existing building was declared unfit for purpose.

The delays, excuses and errors behind this only add to the primary care shortage in north Wales and the impact this has on the region's A&E departments. Meanwhile, cuts to community beds have worsened delays, the health board received more preventable death reports from the coroner than any other organisation in Wales, and it has a higher number of delayed discharges than any other health board in Wales.

A group of retired medics and nurses are campaigning to try and reverse the current unnecessary situation with deliverable proposals, including bringing back community beds. When, if ever, will you intervene and speak and work with these retired medics, and the GPs in Waunfawr and Hanmer, to understand and implement the solutions needed?

As I mentioned in my answer to Siân Gwenllian, the solution needed is to provide integrated services at a community level in a way in which the health board would want to see, and that we certainly want to see as a Welsh Government. As I mentioned earlier, 38 projects have been approved for funding for capital. Fifteen of those 38 projects are in the Betsi Cadwaladr Health Board area, which suggests to me a significant level of investment in exactly the kind of facilities that the Member says he wishes to see more.

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservatives' spokesperson, James Evans.

Diolch, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, the British Medical Association and the Royal College of Nursing have brought forward a petition signed by more than 10,000 people across Wales demanding urgent action to end unsafe corridor care. Doctors and nurses report patients waiting for days in corridors, side rooms and even ambulance bays without privacy, dignity or respect. Yet there is still time for us to address this, Cabinet Secretary.

We've got the 'Winter well-being: shared actions and impact' report, which was published by Public Health Wales, and that highlights that there are going to be huge pressures this winter. So, will you commit today, Cabinet Secretary, to introduce a national standardised system of data collection and monthly publication on corridor care, showing how many patients are being treated outside proper wards, for how long and what were their health outcomes, so the public, clinicians and this Senedd can track progress and make sure that we have nobody waiting in corridors in our hospitals?

I don't want to see anybody being treated in corridors or waiting in corridors for treatment. I was able to visit the Prince Charles Hospital in Merthyr Tydfil earlier this week, where we are now seeing, I think, close to 100 percent compliance with the 45-minute target for ambulance patient handover, and, at the same time, no corridor care being provided. That is what we want to be able to see in all hospital settings: patients being brought quickly into the hospital, ambulances being released and patients not, as a result, being treated in corridors. It is possible to achieve that. It is challenging against a backdrop of incredible pressure, but it is not an acceptable way to provide care other than in the most exceptional circumstances, where, in any system, there is an element of that. So, I've been clear—and the Member will remember, perhaps, from the previous time he asked me about this, in the discussion we had on transparency a few weeks ago—that work is already under way to identify how we can best capture that data and make it available so that we are able to have a conversation that is informed by data on the ground.

It's interesting you mention Prince Charles Hospital, because I actually had a friend there not so long ago who was actually in an overcrowded ward, pushed against a sink. I had another constituent in Prince Charles Hospital who spent four days in a chair receiving treatment. So, I'm not sure what part of the hospital you visited, but perhaps there are other parts of the hospital you should have gone to.

But that petition clearly calls as well for a pause on any further bed reductions across Wales until safe alternatives are in place. At the same time, Public Health Wales, in their report, warned that winter pressures from respiratory viruses, cold homes and delayed discharges will push hospital capacity beyond comprehension. Corridor care is the visible symptom of deeper problems in our health system: too few staffed beds and backlogs in community and social care. So, what specific capacity-boosting measures will you have in place before the peak in January, including staffed escalation beds, rapid discharging lounges and step-down facilities across Wales, to ensure that no patients are left waiting in corridors? Can you also confirm, Cabinet Secretary, how many additional staffed beds will be operational across Wales this winter, compared to last year?

All hospitals have arrangements for surge capacity. This isn't fundamentally a question of the number of beds, however. It's about the system working in better balance and actually making sure that people have the services they need without needing to be admitted to hospital. So, there are very well-established and well-progressed plans. We brought forward winter planning this year to the spring in order to make sure that that community capacity is strengthened and that the ambulance service is working hand in glove with hospitals in order to make sure that, where people don't have to be transported to emergency departments, they aren't. In particular, in relation to breathlessness, a new pathway has been developed over recent months, which will enable patients to have the support they need for conditions related to breathlessness, which we saw, both last year and the year before, was the highest category of red calls on the ambulance service. A new pathway has been developed in response to that. And in relation to those patients who end up being brought to hospital because of a fall, because they're frail, there is now increasing provision in hospital sites to ensure that they don't have to be admitted to an ED. They can be treated separately and discharged in a prompt way, and we are starting to see the benefit of that.

I would just say to him once again that one of the challenges that, last year, he was rightly challenging me on was the number of patients in the back of ambulances over the winter months waiting to be admitted to hospital. We have the lowest number of lost hours in ambulances, which is how we describe that, of any point in the last four years as a consequence of the focus that the health service has brought onto this important issue. So, going into winter months, we are in a better position in terms of ambulance handover than at any point in the last four years. We all anticipate that winter will be challenging. The task we have is to prepare for it as best we can. I'm confident that we are doing that and that we have done that. There are always unpredictable aspects that come. We model for them as best any Government can. That is the situation we face going into winter.

But, Cabinet Secretary, I know you've said this isn't about beds, but it is, isn't it? Because the British Medical Association have said this is about beds, and the Royal College of Nursing have said this is about bed numbers, and they are the professionals on the front line. With all due respect, I would take their advice over your advice, Cabinet Secretary. So, I will ask again: they are saying that there are going to be unprecedented capacity issues in our hospitals this winter, and that we need to make sure that bed capacity is increased, not reduced. You didn't answer my question, Cabinet Secretary, on that point. We need to see more beds in our hospitals—that's clear. I'd like to hear from you: are you going to put more beds into our hospitals, or is this Welsh Government going to continue to reduce beds across our hospitals, which puts more people in corridors and more people waiting out the back of hospitals in ambulances?

I wonder whether the Member actually heard the answer I gave previously, or whether he was preparing for the next question. The very first thing I said was that all hospitals in Wales have plans for surge capacity. But fundamentally, if the Member thinks that the solution to this problem is more and more and more beds, he is absolutely fundamentally wrong about that. What we know, everywhere, globally, is that if we continue to provide healthcare in the most expensive part and least convenient part of the system for patients, we will fail. The way to fund, the way to make the progress that we want to see, and the Member says he wants to see, is by supporting services in the community, and this Government is committed to doing that.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Thank you, Llywydd. In June, the Cabinet Secretary announced a funding package of £120 million to tackle waiting lists, the latest in a long list of expensive measures that the Government have put in place over the term of this Senedd in order to tackle the backlog, which has built up to over 200,000 since the last election. In response to a series of written questions on the use of this funding, the Cabinet Secretary confirmed that £20 million from this fund was being used—and I quote—to maintain the situation delivered in March 2025 in terms of two-year waiting times, at least, while supporting a further reduction wherever possible.

To explain the situation in March, there were 8,400 pathways waiting more than two years for treatment, whilst the latest statistics show 8,700 such waits. So, not only has the minimum expected from this investment failed to be delivered, the situation has declined further. So, what is the Cabinet Secretary's explanation as to why this investment hasn't led to what was pledged, and why can't this Government get a grip of the situation?

Well, the Member isn't explaining the situation as it currently is on the ground. We've seen significant decreases in terms of the people who are waiting longest in our system since autumn of last year. What we are seeing, quarter on quarter, is a decrease in the number of people waiting over two years. We have a target of moving that towards nobody waiting for that period of time, and we are making progress towards that target. We'll also see, when we publish the next set of figures, a significant decline in one month in the number of people waiting for treatment on our waiting lists here in Wales.

So, what we're seeing is progress, quarter after quarter, towards that objective. The investment that we made into the system is allowing us, as well as reforming the way that we provide services, to make that progress. If it had been up to the decision that you had, we wouldn't have had access to that funding to be able to invest in the system at all.

The number back in March was 8,400. The number today is 8,700. That's not an improvement. That's things getting worse. Of course, the £20 million I referenced in my question formed part of a wider package of funding, which, according to the Cabinet Secretary, was designed to reduce the overall backlog by 200,000 by the March of next year. To say that this is a highly ambitious target would be an understatement, and the stats bear out this conclusion. As things stand, you have achieved less than 2 per cent of the total expected reduction. At this rate, it'll take over a quarter of a century to reach the target, which would still leave a backlog of almost 600,000. Can you confirm whether the intention to reduce the total backlog by 200,000 by March remains your goal? If so, what exactly are you going to do differently to ensure that it's achieved by March?

It is the goal. The performance for the figures, as I've just indicated, the next time they're published, will show a significant reduction in one month, and we expect that to continue month on month. I'm sure that he, like every other Member, will be hearing from constituents that they're being called in for appointments in the evening, on Sunday evenings, on Saturday afternoons, in ways that are completely unprecedented—that's the truth of it. So, it's the aggregate of all that additional activity in the health service, both delivering out-patient activity and other activity more effectively in the core provision, increasing the capacity to provide extra sessions in the evenings and on the weekends, and supplemented by calling into public use, if you like, that extra independent provider capacity to support the public NHS. A mix of all of those things will get us to the levels of reduction that we want to see. There has been a reduction, month on month, and we will see next month a significantly increased reduction, and that pattern is expected to continue until March, and I'm sure he would welcome that.

One of the contributing factors to the long waiting lists has undoubtedly been the persistent pressure faced by the workforce, with unrelenting and increasing unsustainable workloads. Under such circumstances, you would naturally expect high demand amongst health boards for extra staff, especially as we approach the busiest time of the year for the NHS. But in a clear sign of the misalignment of available resources with the needs of the system, the very opposite is often the case. I'm sure the Cabinet Secretary will also be aware of an open letter recently signed by the students of the March 2023 cohort of Swansea University, who, despite each having completed over 2,000 hours of clinical practice for the NHS, have been informed that there will not be a single adult branch nurse post made available to them by Swansea bay. This is at a time when they continue to spend vast sums on agency nurses. And this is just one example of a wider pattern of young medical professionals in Wales encountering a shut door after shut door while trying to start their careers. Over recent months, I’ve been inundated with messages from recently graduated medical students who are struggling to find employment in Wales. In many cases, they were informed upon graduating in the summer of recruitment freezes of up to six months. It’s little wonder, therefore, why Wales fares particularly badly when it comes to retaining the enormous wealth of talent that we have been nurturing.

Can you explain why, given that universities are evidently being asked to provide medical training places by the health boards, that the likes of Swansea bay are now claiming they have no need for new staff in areas such as adult nursing, and nurses are graduating with no positions available for them?

Well, this is a complex area, and the Member, on other occasions, has been telling us we aren’t training enough nurses. So, I’m not sure what his analysis is of the problem, but let me tell him what my analysis is of the problem. I don’t think it is quite right to say that all the challenges that we have are ones that require additional staffing. So, for example, you might wish to go and visit some of these examples. I was at Llandough hospital very recently, looking at what they’ve done there in relation to the transformation of their cataract services, with the same staffing complement, with the same resource availability, but making very intelligent use of that capacity, co-locating it with other aspects of the service. And now they are at the top end of the Getting It Right First Time expectation anywhere in the UK in terms of the number of cataracts they’re able to deliver on the same resource base.

Now, obviously, with larger facilities, more resources, they could do even more, but I think it’s a false assumption that all the challenges in the system are ones that create a need for additional staffing. And the challenge, I think, for all parts of the health service is how we can make use of the extensive resources already in the system in a way that delivers an even better service to patients, and motivates staff to do that.

On the specific point he raises in relation to Swansea bay, he may be aware that Health Education and Improvement Wales, in order to seek to address the challenge that has arisen, has sought to extend the application window—the streamlining window, as it’s called—which allocates nursing graduate jobs, beyond the deadline of this week, for another three weeks, to enable more time to be found to identify a solution for the students. And my officials are working with both HEIW and Swansea bay health board to identify and to be able to publish further vacancies. And students are being reassured that they will be kept informed throughout, obviously. And should it be the case, at the end of that process, that sufficient posts are still not available, they will not be tied into the NHS Wales bursary conditions that otherwise they would be.

The Senedd recently agreed the National Health Service (Concerns, Complaints and Redress Arrangements) (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2025, reforming the 'Putting Things Right' process in Wales. The strengthened complaints process, renamed 'Listening to People', focuses on early resolution and clearer communication standards, designed to support people if something goes wrong.

Thank you for that answer, Cabinet Secretary. One of my constituents endured a truly unimaginable, tragic and upsetting incident not too long ago when seeking medical assistance for his mother following a nasty fall at home. I have raised this specific incident with you before, Cabinet Secretary, so I won’t go into too much depth or detail, but just as a brief recap for you and for other Members in the room, my constituent’s mother faced unacceptable delays for help, including shamefully long waits for an ambulance, a doctor failing to turn up due to her shift finishing, and when an ambulance did turn up, my constituent’s 98-year-old mother was forced to wait more than nine hours in the back of an ambulance before being handed over to hospital. But perhaps more upsetting of all was the fact that the doctor phoned my constituent, who was in the hospital car park at the time, telling him to make his way to the hospital as his mother did not have long to live. After entering the hospital a short while later, he was informed that his mother had actually passed away four hours prior.

Cabinet Secretary, quite rightly, my constituent wants answers to the questions he has over his whole experience, including what happened in his mother’s last moments, and I have been helping him get those answers. The Welsh ambulance service, as well as the Aneurin Bevan health board, have finally responded to the complaint, but it has taken them eight months, Cabinet Secretary, and a lot of chasing on behalf of my team. Now, my constituent has gone through the responses that he’s received, and he’s concerned that it contains glaring mistruths and inaccuracies. So, Cabinet Secretary, do you think that it’s acceptable that my grieving constituent has had to wait eight months for answers, and how is the Welsh Government ensuring that health organisations provide timely and, more importantly, accurate responses to complaints that they receive? Thank you.

I'm very sorry to hear about the experience of her constituent, and she has raised it with me previously. It's difficult for me to comment on the specifics of that situation for reasons that I know she will understand. But it is in order to improve the experience that patients and their families have when they make a complaint or when they raise a concern that we have reformed, with the consent of the Senedd, the approach that the NHS takes to addressing complaints.

I am confident—I think we probably all are, given the support that the regulations were able to attract—that the new system will be more responsive, will be more transparent for patients, and, in introducing a two-stage approach with a higher value level of resolution, a higher maximum figure, that will enable patients' and their families' concerns to be addressed much more rapidly. And I can hear from her question that that would have been something that, obviously, her constituent would have appreciated in that particular context, and, in a way in which I think we would all recognise, the current system could be clearer and easier to navigate. I'm confident that the new arrangements that we are putting in place will have that effect.

The Welsh Labour Government is committed to a publicly funded NHS, paid for from general taxation, which does not drive patients into expensive private insurance. Following the independent review of clinical pharmacy services at hospitals in NHS Wales, health boards have been working to implement recommendations that support both the Welsh Government long-term plan for health and social care, 'A Healthier Wales' and immediate NHS priorities.

Obviously, you didn't listen to me, Cabinet Secretary, the last time I spoke to you—Reform in Government next May will keep the NHS free at the point of delivery, as it is now, just to be absolutely clear.

Now, back to my important question. The Welsh NHS is constantly crying out for capacity, yet patients who are ready to go home and have the okay to do so are often stuck waiting hours, half a day perhaps, for their medication. This is inefficient and, of course, prevents many beds from being freed up. This is a particular problem on wards over the weekend at the Grange hospital in my region, where the onsite pharmacy closes at 12.30 in the afternoon on weekends. The transfer discharge lounge at the Grange, where patients wait to receive medication and arrange transport home, is an excellent idea for a multitude of reasons, but also, of course, to free up beds. However, I understand that, due to how busy it is, it could ideally do with more staff to manage the demand and, of course, the acute needs presenting there. It is a great idea, but it is only being fed by certain wards, not all. So, in some wards, beds are not being freed up like they should be.

Cabinet Secretary, are you looking to work with LHBs, like Aneurin Bevan University Health Board, to expand their transfer discharge lounge provision to all wards, which, of course, would take significant investment, but would pay dividends? Or are you looking to expand in-house pharmacy opening hours on weekends, so that beds can be made available far quicker for those that need them and, of course, patients can get back to their homes far quicker? Diolch.

Well, Llywydd, so that the record is clear, the leader of reform, Nigel Farage, has on more than one occasion been very, very clear that he does not believe the NHS should be funded from public funds, from general taxation, and seeks the introduction of a private insurance system. There is only one consequence to a private insurance system: it is that it is based on an ability to pay—it is as simple as that. This Government will never countenance that situation. We believe in free health care, free at the point of use and unrelated to people's ability to pay. And it is a matter of great regret to me that her party doesn't subscribe to that principle.

On the specific question that she raised, she will know, as I mentioned in my earlier question, that there has been a review of clinical pharmacy services and there have been a number of recommendations about how to improve the service that pharmacies are able to provide to integrate pharmacy teams more fully into broader multidisciplinary teams. And hospitals right across Wales, including the Grange hospital, are implementing the recommendations from that review.

The Welsh Government issued a Welsh health circular that identifies five priorities in particular, which hospitals should be reporting. I do accept that it is important in order to ensure timely discharge of those people ready to leave hospital that they are able to access the medication that they need, and the recommendations that hospitals are implementing will have that effect. Of course, none of this would be paid for out of the public purse if Reform had their way.

The Member does make a valid point about people being delayed from leaving hospital because they’re waiting for their medication. I think most of us have had casework on that, and those beds are very much needed. The Welsh Government have committed to improving and enhancing digital tools across pharmacies in Wales, with innovations such as electronic prescriptions, seamless care and improved app integration. Those improvements are certainly very relevant for outside of hospitals, but, for those inside the system, they may not be quite so effective. Therefore, Cabinet Secretary, would your recommendations you just spoke of talk of additional digital tools that could be available for our hospital pharmacies, to reduce the amount of time patients are waiting for that discharge medication?

The Member makes a very important point about the role that digital applications have in order to support pharmacists and, most importantly, patients in relation to this. The digital medicines transformation programme has as its aim improving access to medicines, with future plans for prescriptions to be sent electronically from hospitals to community pharmacies so that people can have the more convenient access that they need to treatments. But he makes an important point about access to digital tools within settings as well. He is right to say that one of the recommendations in the review, recommendation 36, was that electronic medicines management systems must ensure, on a consistent basis right across Wales, across all settings, interoperability fundamental to any plans for safe and effective patient care.

Health boards in Wales are responsible for ensuring the provision of safe, timely and high-quality clinical services for their local population. The Welsh Government continues to support health boards to make improvements through setting strategic national priorities, additional funding and direct intervention when challenges arise.

Cabinet Secretary, you will be aware of a report published a few weeks ago by the Public Services Ombudsman for Wales in relation to specialist services for epilepsy patients with learning disabilities. The report found that, when the Hywel Dda University Health Board's learning disability epilepsy service ceased in June 2021, the health board did not review the patients on its lists in a timely manner, nor did it provide adequate alternative provision to meet their needs. The ombudsman also found that, four years on, there was still no appropriate and accessible pathway in place to ensure that the needs of this group of patients were adequately met. Cabinet Secretary, this is not acceptable, and urgent action must be taken to address the health board's poor planning and communication and to ensure there’s a clear and accessible pathway for these patients. Therefore, can you tell us what the Welsh Government is doing to urgently address the poor service planning within the health board? Can you tell us what support will be offered to ensure vulnerable epilepsy patients are able to get the appropriate care and support that they need and that they deserve?

The Member will know that the health board has been consulting recently on a range of service changes and the potential future direction for clinical services in its footprint area. I think it is incumbent, obviously, on all health boards to make sure that the way services are provided and configured meets the needs of their local population. I am aware of the report to which the Member refers, about the closure in 2021. I am conscious of the contents of it, and I intend to raise the point specifically that the Member raised with the chair of the health board at my next meeting with him.

Improving access to the right health professional is a Government commitment. Our strategy is more preventative care from more integrated services, with people only going to hospital for reasons of safety or acute need. To improve primary care contractor services, we work with the NHS and professional representatives to develop and support those most familiar and accessed services.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. You will be aware that within my constituency is the Argyle Medical Group surgery, the second largest in Wales, with over 20,000 registered patients. However, they've only got nine general practitioners, whereas similar-sized surgeries have nearly doubled that at 18 or 17 GPs. Now, I've written to the Argyle Medical Group in good faith, offering support because it continues to be one of the No. 1 issues within my mailbag—getting access to see a GP. I'm disappointed as well that they've made the decision to shut the patient participation group. Now, I want this surgery, like every one of my constituents, to succeed. Their success is a success for the staff and success for the patients. So, Cabinet Secretary, would you meet with me and with the local health board to see how we can collaboratively help Argyle Medical Group to satisfy the needs of the 22,000 patients on their list?

Well, there's an extraordinarily high demand for GP services in Wales, as the Member will be aware—about 1.6 million contacts with GP practices every single month. There are challenges that some practices face in providing the level of access that we would wish them to provide. The Government is very clear about the expectations we have in relation to the access commitment, in terms of the opportunities available for patients to make the bookings, as well as alternative mechanisms for appointments to be booked. The most recent contract discussions with GP representatives included a provision for the health boards to monitor compliance with those standards in all parts of general practice. I hope the health board will be able to work with the practice to ensure the level of access that his constituents are entitled to, and I'll keep that very much under review.

Health boards are responsible for setting their own workforce levels to meet local needs. The Welsh Government works closely with Health Education and Improvement Wales and NHS Wales organisations to support workforce planning and recruitment. Hywel Dda health board now employs over 3,100 registered nurses, an increase of 25 per cent since before the pandemic.

Thank you. In recent discussions with Endometriosis UK and families who care for individuals with epilepsy, I've heard about serious gaps in specialist nursing provision across Hywel Dda health board. The only specialist nurse for endometriosis, for example, is presently on maternity leave and they haven't appointed a replacement for her. There are only two specialist epilepsy nurses available to work across three counties in south-west Wales.

As we've already heard from Paul Davies, the public services ombudsman has already found that Hywel Dda failed to provide adequate support for people with learning disabilities and epilepsy, and the service that was previously provided closed entirely following the retirement of a single specialist nurse. Now, surely a system that is dependent on single individuals is not a sustainable or resilient workforce. So, what we need is what we haven't got, which is a coherent and co-ordinated common service provision.

So, what specific interventions is the Welsh Government making to recruit and retain specialist nurses, and what steps will be taken to ensure that the national workforce strategy supports health boards in rural areas adequately to fill and retain these specialist roles?

I would agree that there are challenges in running a sustainable service when there is an over-reliance on a very small number of professionals. I know that Hywel Dda University Health Board is strengthening its workforce and is seeking innovative ways in order to do that. I think recruiting specialist nurses in west Wales remains a persistent challenge, unfortunately, and I think innovative solutions are needed to meet the unique workforce demands in some of our rural communities. I know, for example, that nearly 100 internationally educated nurses have joined the workforce across Carmarthenshire, Ceredigion and Pembrokeshire as part of the health board's recruitment strategy.

As a Government, we don't set specialist nurse staffing levels for individual organisations. Our role, which we discharge, is to work with HEIW and NHS Wales to monitor workforce planning. The professional framework that HEIW has to support the development of advanced nursing roles in Wales is funded by over £2 million a year from us in order to be able to support that work, and that sits alongside the work of the strategic nursing workforce plan. But, as I say, it is incumbent on the health board to look at increasingly innovative approaches to meet the needs of the services that the Member refers to.

And finally, question 8, Buffy Williams.

Following investment from the Welsh Government and support to Cwm Taf Morgannwg University Health Board over the last 12 months, there has been a 75 per cent reduction in two-year waits, a 67 per cent decrease in the number of over one-hour ambulance handovers, and an 89 per cent decrease in the number of over four-hour ambulance handovers.

Thank you for that answer, Cabinet Secretary. Before the summer, I visited the mobile theatre unit at the Royal Glamorgan Hospital. I met the one thousandth patient to receive treatment there. The team are working miracles to bring waiting lists down at pace, and it's clear that Welsh Government funding has given NHS staff the facilities to deliver treatment faster. Nobody should have to wait in pain and discomfort for their operation, but, in recent months, I've heard so many positive stories from residents in Rhondda who've been called for surgery earlier than expected. Can the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on the future of these mobile theatres, knowing the difference they are making for patients and for staff?

I visited shortly after her, and the health board was telling me that they'd had the opportunity of showing the Member around the Vanguard facilities. As the Member will know, obviously, the mobile theatre unit was commissioned following the critical incident at the Princess of Wales Hospital, which resulted in the temporary closure of all eight theatres on the site. The current contract for the theatre unit runs til the spring of next year, as the Member will know. As a consequence of the capital works that we funded, the main theatre suites at the Princess of Wales Hospital are now reopened and are fully functioning. But the mobile unit can and will further assist the health board with its capacity on the Royal Glamorgan site, as there is additional maintenance work and replacement work that will shortly commence on the main theatre block at the hospital. So, it still has a very important role to play. It enables the health board to continue with a range of general surgery, urological and ear, nose and throat procedures whilst those main theatres undergo the essential upgrade works, so that we can make sure that people continue to be called sooner than they expected for the treatments that they need. It'll be a matter for the health board, then, to consider whether that is something that can continue beyond that into the future.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

The next item is the topical questions—two topical questions today, both to be answered by the Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs, and the first is to be asked by Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Pred. First of all, can I say we extend our deepest sympathies to the family and the community affected by this tragic incident in Monmouthshire? This is a deeply distressing case. You will understand it'll be inappropriate for me to speculate while the investigations are ongoing, but I can assure you the Welsh Government continues to keep dog control policy under close review, to ensure public safety.

You are right, this is a deeply distressing incident, and my heart and condolences go out to the family of the baby that has died in this incident, and the whole community of Rogiet will also have been affected. The investigation, as you say, is ongoing, and we are yet to learn the breed of the dog involved in the attack, and it wouldn't be appropriate for you to comment on that investigation. Nevertheless, we know that admissions to hospital as a result of dog bites are on the rise in Wales. Indeed, a University of Liverpool study shows dog bite admissions in Wales nearly doubled between 2014 and 2022, with the most incidents occurring in the home. In my region, there have been a number of fatalities and serious dog attacks since my election in 2021. This is why I've previously called on the Government to introduce measures to promote community safety as far as responsible dog ownership is concerned. Can you let this Senedd know, as well as the many animal welfare groups watching that are also concerned about the rise in dog attacks in Wales, what has been achieved and whether you're confident that measures taken will lead to enhanced community safety? Diolch.

Thank you, Pred. And as well as extending our sympathies to the family and communities affected, we have to recognise that this is not the only incident we've seen in recent years, including in this part of Wales, but in other parts of Wales and the United Kingdom as well. So, we have to use every possible measure at our control to deal with the issue of responsible dog ownership, but also control of dogs as well.

So, since the UK Government's approach in 2023 within the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991, Welsh Government has taken a very proactive and, actually, what we would term a multi-agency approach. So, we work with many, many people out there with great expertise to promote public safety and responsible ownership. So, for example—. And Pred, my thanks to you as well for the commitment that you've shown to this area and the interest that you've shown in this. So, things, for example, such as the local environmental awareness on dogs initiative with the Gwent police force, which actually works in a very nuanced and intelligent way with owners to identify early on any issues—I'm not saying it's related to this instance, but identifying issues—that could be to do with behaviour of animals or, alternatively, could be to do with behaviour of the owners and keepers of those animals as well, and intervenes very early.

We also have the uptake of the responsible dog ownership courses, which are promoted by Blue Cross, another one of our partners. So, the idea there is that you engage with the owners in a similar way to what you would do with things such as speed offences and so on, and you get in early and say, 'You need to understand what is happening here. We can help you in terms of the way you approach responsible ownership and the behaviour of your animal as well.' And also there's the influential work conducted by Hope Rescue in the community and the support that they give to dog owners and also to mental health charities. And, of course, this is all backed up by what we do through Animal Licensing Wales as well, and the enforcement approach that they do, working alongside local authorities, breeders and the public.

So, there are many things that we need to keep building on, and all this is brought together, I have to say, in the responsible ownership forums that we bring together, when all those people sit around and say, 'What more can we do?' Because we cannot be complacent on this. But it's an absolute tragedy that we've seen once again visited upon our communities.

Deputy First Minister, I'm sure, as we've heard, that all Members of the Senedd would want to send their deepest sympathies to the family on this unimaginable loss and the unimaginable grief that they're suffering at this time, and to trust that all necessary support is being provided to the family. The wider community in Rogiet, which is quite a tight-knit village, has been deeply affected by this, and I know that the community is pulling together to provide mutual support at such a difficult time.

As you say, Deputy First Minister, police enquiries are ongoing and it wouldn't be right to speculate in any way at the current time as to the precise circumstances of this incident, but I do agree that, more widely, we do see far too many problems arising from dog ownership and dogs in Wales. And I do believe—and I know other Members here have raised these issues more generally regularly—that we do need to think more deeply and more urgently as to what further action can be taken to deal with the issues in general. And I'm sure that, as well as that, we will, in due course, look at the particular circumstances of this tragedy, as to whether there are any lessons to be learned.

Thank you, John. And you're right, we won't—. It's not for any of us to speculate today, but there will be lessons to learn, I'm sure, from this once the investigation has taken place. And as well as our sympathies going out to those affected on this loss and this tragedy, we also want to make sure that the support is given to the family affected as well, and I know the community will rally around as well.

But you are right in saying that you, amongst others, have championed a more joined-up approach to this. So, it isn't simply based on breed of dogs and so on, it's to do with responsible ownership and it's to do with an approach—. I've mentioned some of the things we're doing with the LEAD approach, about early identification of worrying signs in animal ownership or behaviour of animals. But it's also what we do with Animal Licensing Wales, because part of the funding—and, by the way, we've extended the funding for Animal Licensing Wales—is to do with the award-winning, now, training initiatives that they've done with owners, but also with the enforcement initiatives that they do as well when they need to. But our approach needs to be a properly joined-up one, which is to do with education, because that's the lifelong piece, with keepers and owners of companion animals, and dogs in this instance. It's education, it is enforcement, but it's also community engagement, and that's where pieces like the LEAD piece comes in, so that the whole community is actually working together with enforcement agencies, with those who can educate owners to say, 'We think we might have an issue. Before it becomes too much of an issue, can somebody help give the support, give the advice?' But it doesn't take away from this particular instance, which we have to see the investigation carried through on, and the tragedy that has unfolded once again here in Wales.

I concur with everything my colleague John Griffiths has said. I think the incident in Rogiet on Sunday was utterly heartbreaking, and my deepest sympathies and prayers are with the family who have suffered the unimaginable loss of their child in such horrific circumstances. I think it's difficult for any of us to comprehend the pain that they must be experiencing, and I know, as has already been said, that we all across this Chamber share our sorrow and collective support for the family and the community. Deputy First Minister, my question is simple: what is the Welsh Government doing to help that family, that community, and what can it do for these situations when they do happen, too often, sadly?

Thank you, Peter, for that. You're right in saying, as everyone has said today, that it's not just the investigation that goes on and the lessons that could be learnt, because each one of these tragedies will bring us different learning experiences that we might well need to act on, but it's also the support that is there now for the family, because this has been the loss of a baby—none of us would want to go through that—in the most tragic of circumstances. So, I can assure you that that support is being provided in the community by the relevant statutory services, but also from the community and the family as well wrapping around, as well as, of course, the police carrying out their investigations as well. It's a deeply sad occurrence. You can be assured, Peter, that, as we've always done here in Wales, and in the approach that we're taking, the joined-up approach, we will not leave any stone unturned going forward about what more we can do to try and avoid these tragedies. I think that really does require this joined-up approach and this focus on responsible ownership, early intervention where needed, education, enforcement and working with the community.

I thank the Deputy First Minister. The second topical question will be asked by Adam Price.

Diolch, Adam. Thank you for raising this question. Our hearts go out to those affected by the flooding we've seen in the recent hours and days. The impacts on homes and businesses and lives can be devastating. We also thank our emergency services, the local authorities, Natural Resources Wales and many others who are working tirelessly to support the people and the communities affected.

Yes, I think we all will have seen the desperately heart-rending pictures from communities in my constituency, and in neighbouring constituencies, on social media overnight: houses inundated with water, belongings damaged beyond repair. I think, above all, for many of them—because this won't be the first time that this has happened to them—it's that creeping sense of dread that they feel that the next rainfall could bring this nightmare around again. I would also like to pay tribute to all the public services, the staff of the local authority and emergency services and others who really worked heroically overnight rescuing vulnerable residents and trying their best, really, to mitigate the damage.

But I suppose what residents will want to hear from the Government is an assurance that the Government is working as hard as it can on ensuring that this doesn't keep happening to the same communities. What is in place, in terms of investment, to ensure that, as far as we can, we're protecting the communities from going through the same cycle time after time again?

In the short term, I'd appreciate it if the Cabinet Secretary could give us any information that he has about the effectiveness of the flood warning system that the Welsh Government has invested in with NRW and the Met Office—the Flood Forecasting Centre. There is some concern locally that the severity of what actually happened wasn't conveyed in a sufficiently clear and timely manner. I'll ask the Cabinet Secretary: does he have anything he can share with us on that?

What financial support can be provided, both to the local authority, but also directly to individuals? Many of them, of course, don't have insurance precisely because they've been flooded repeatedly. The Welsh Government has set out its response to the National Infrastructure Commission for Wales report on building resilience to flooding in Wales. In some of those responses, you said, 'Well, we'll do the 30-year strategy in the next Senedd. We'll introduce a catchment approach, yes, but maybe a pilot first.' Don't we need to accelerate that, Cabinet Secretary?

And can I make a particular plea on behalf of villages like Pontargothi? I know it very well. I lived just next door in Llanegwad. Residents there, I know many of them personally, have been flooded time and time again. Yet, because they're small communities, they don't meet the investment threshold necessary to become a priority for the flooding investment programme of the Welsh Government. Isn't it now time that we had a specific pot of money for these smaller rural communities that are facing the tremendous despairing situation of being flooded time after time after time? Shouldn't they be a priority as part of the Government's plan throughout the whole of Wales?

Adam, thank you very much indeed. I'll try and respond to all of the questions that you've asked there. First, in terms of additional support, we're always live, in Welsh Government, to the individual nature of any particular flooding incidents. This was a combination of heavy rainfall, but also, in some areas, coastal flooding as well that was to do with the sea level at the same time, which is the worst sort of one. As a boy who used to live on the Loughor estuary, I understand that very much indeed there.

But we're always very live to the calls from communities for support. One of the things we can do is to make sure that we are continuing the levels of investment that we do, both in terms of the large flood defence schemes, but also those smaller initiatives that make a real difference on the ground, where we work with the local authorities and put the funding, actually, into those local flood authorities so that they can invest. That is often in things that are unseen. It's in the culverts, it's in the monitoring, it's the cleaning of the gullies, and all of those sorts of things, as well as the big heavy infrastructure. You're right in saying we will take forward, increasingly, not only those hard-engineering approaches, but nature-based solutions as well, where we deal with this in the upstream areas on top of that.

There is in place, as you know, the emergency financial assistance scheme, EFAS. That has trigger points. You say, 'Well, can we look at that in terms of—?' Sorry, that is available, and I know the local authorities, when they think they've reached the thresholds on that, they will be in touch with us if they consider they can draw down funding from that.

You talk about flood investment, the flood investment that can be there for smaller scale schemes. Well, we do that already with local authorities, by putting specific pots of money where they think that the priorities are. But, again, they need to make their prioritisation choices as well as to which communities are the right ones to do that sort of investment in.

From an NRW perspective, they work to very set criteria. I'm simplifying it, but it's largely to do with where the best value for money is for the greatest protection of the number of homes and businesses and lives. So, there will always be additional calls to say, 'But we fall just outside of that', but they will keep on looking at that, and the case needs to be made. But there has to be a prioritisation, even with the record funding that we've now put in place.

I can tell you where we see this has worked. Recently, I was at the Ammanford flood defences, which is one of our biggest schemes in Wales, and I'm pleased to report that even with the surge along that stretch, the protection of the hundreds of properties there held. It was within the capacity of what we had designed for, and so on, and that's important. So, we can make a difference. We will keep on listening, though, Adam, as well. But there will be some communities who will say, 'We just fall outside of a current scheme.' Well, we need to hear the case. The case needs to be put forward to NRW for that.

I'm grateful to the Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr for securing this topical debate, because the scenes that we've seen in Carmarthenshire and in Pembrokeshire as well, in my constituency of Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire, are tragic. I commend the emergency services, NRW, the local council teams, but also local county councillors as well, who are often the first point of contact for these communities in supporting them, and also to the agricultural community, because a lot of farmers have gone above and beyond in supporting their communities, moving people through flooded waters, et cetera.

In Carmarthen town itself, we've seen the quay flood once again, and I've raised with your predecessors a number of times, Deputy First Minister, the need to treat businesses equally to homes in terms of flood defence. Because these businesses are often the livelihoods of these individuals, and in the way that the planning around flood defences is currently drafted, support is prioritised for homes, which I understand, but there is a lack of recognition for flood defence support for businesses. We know that the Cresselly Arms in my neighbour constituency, Adam Price's seat, that has been flooded. A number of businesses along the quayside flooded, and in Pembrokeshire as well. So, what guarantees can you say to this Chamber and to our constituents, following this flood event, that you will go away to have a look at what support can be made available, so that there is equity in that flood defence for properties as well as businesses?

Well, the challenge here is the point that you just made of equity, because the nearest relation to equity is fairness, and we've come to an approach that I think is widely recognised as being the most fair and equitable, which is that we do focus on homes and the risk to lives as well within homes, as well as businesses. But let me just say very, very clearly, because it relates to the point that Adam was making as well, about those who don't see the same level of support as some of the schemes that are going on, that there is, as I say, record investment.

The quay is an interesting one, and I know you've raised it before. So, NRW, as the responsible risk management authority for the risk of flooding from the River Towy in Carmarthen, holds the ring on whether a flood alleviation scheme is brought forward at Carmarthen quay. All the schemes receiving Welsh Government flood and coastal erosion risk management funding must be shown to be reducing risk to life by reducing the risk to homes, because that's where the most significant risk is. Now, schemes may also provide a risk reduction to businesses as well, and to infrastructure as well, as a wider benefit. However, it is homes that remain the foremost priority for funding. And by the way, we're not distant from what happens in other parts of the UK on this as well; the focus is on homes and lives as well as businesses, but homes are the key priority for funding. So, any risk management authority that pursues a scheme, including for businesses, will need to justify why it's diverting funding away from other high-risk communities elsewhere within your area or within Wales, and that's the decision they need to make.

But can I say as well that Welsh Government officials are currently exploring wider resilience opportunities, particularly for small and medium-sized enterprises that are vulnerable to flooding, to source alternative finance and investment to become more resilient to flooding, whilst also helping them then to grow? Also, linked to that, the Development Bank of Wales, for example, has confirmed that it can support smaller businesses that are impacted by flooding through the Wales micro loan fund, offering fast-tracked loans from £1,000 to £50,000. And I'm sorry, Adam, I didn't address, Dirprwy Lywydd, your point about insurance. I would direct people towards the Flood Re insurance, which is in place for home owners, but also to Business Wales for businesses for the support and advice that they can give as well.

Of course, we've seen the widespread disruption. We've seen several schools forced to close in Pembrokeshire and also in Carmarthenshire, and those were as a result of roads being impassable. We've seen the Whitland housing complex, where people were evacuated in the early hours of this morning and, of course, the effort that went into that has been, quite rightly, praised here today.

But there are some key obvious things here. If you get a lot of rain and wind at the same time as a full moon, when you're going to have a high tide, the alert goes out. And there are other obvious things that need addressing. When you're talking about surface water flooding, you have to ensure that the ditches alongside those roads are clear, that everybody involved—landowners, councils—take their responsibilities really seriously, and that annually those things are worked on. And we know that 14 years of austerity and reduced public funds have lessened the capability to do that, but I think we urgently need to put that back in place. So, I would like to know how those things are going to be funded.

You're right to say, of course, and I checked it myself this morning, that that £6 million flood defence did hold up in Ammanford, that it did protect those houses it was intended to protect, and that is reassuring, especially since that was what we were hoping would happen. But climate change isn't going to go away, and I ask you, Deputy First Minister, whether we need to perhaps revisit some of the planning applications that are on the table, and the planning rules, in terms of the heavy rainfall that we're now experiencing that might put areas into a floodplain that weren't previously there, and in the very short term, because I don't think it's going to be for the short term.

Thank you very much. Yes, you're absolutely right, we need to make sure through both the planning policy but also the individual decisions being made at a local level that there is flood resilience built into any new communities, because we do have a drive to have more affordable housing in communities, not least in rural areas, but they do absolutely need to be in the right place and to be flood resilient as well, otherwise we are building up problems going forward.

You mentioned the issue of ditches and watercourses, which is something that you and others, including Carolyn, our colleague, have regularly raised here. I just want to reiterate the responsibility of riparian owners in terms of watercourses, including ditches and drainage and so on, because if they are blocked or obstructed or diverted, they could add to the problem. I'm not talking about these particular circumstances today, but it is a general principle. It's not only for local authorities and statutory bodies to go around continuously clearing stuff away, riparian owners also have a responsibility as well. But linked to that, I have to say, was Sam's point that some of those riparian owners are actually the farmers who do the work in helping people out from these situations as well, so we've got to give credit where credit is due.

I just wanted to touch on the other aspect that you and others have mentioned, which is to do with what we can do with warnings and alerts and so on. It is definitely true that the £60 million that we've put into upgrading the warnings and alerts in Wales has been money well spent, but what we now need to do is that work with communities to make sure not simply that the alerts are going out, but people understand how to respond to them, with the three different levels of it as well, and what to do, and to heed it, and actually to work together on a community basis then to respond. Because it's not every man, woman and child for themselves—it shouldn't be that. It should be how do you then respond, where do the statutory agencies kick in, and the responders, but, also, how can communities actually help themselves as well, and support each other. But that's a piece of work that we are doing, because putting the technology in place, having the alerts going out, is one piece, the main thing is how people react to that and how they respond to it.

We have all seen the heartbreaking images from last night and this morning on television and on social media. I want to give great thanks to the emergency services for the work that they did overnight and during the morning.

As it happens, I live in the basin of the Tywi valley. I was on the phone with my wife this morning, and we have been isolated there. But, unfortunately, the home next door is under nine inches of water, and she experiences flooding in her home every time the river floods. So, I want to follow on from the point that Adam Price raised in terms of what financial support is available for property owners who are suffering flooding time and time again. She has sought financial support but she has been refused time and time again. So, I would ask you about that support that is available for properties in rural areas.

Of course, schools in Carmarthenshire and Pembrokeshire have been closed today, and many pupils were supposed to be taking GCSE examinations both today and tomorrow. So, what support is available, and what arrangements have been made, to ensure that these pupils do not suffer in any way because they have failed to take those examinations today, and may fail to do so tomorrow?

The final point is that we have also seen the pictures from the Cresselly Arms in Pontargothi, which has been flooded and has suffered serious damage. So, can you assure us that there is sufficient capacity within NRW, for example, to maintain river banks, in order to ensure that large branches and trees do not fall into the water and get caught under the bridge, which means that the water then goes to a higher than usual level further up the river? So, these are all things that could be resolved and that would make life easier for people living in these areas.

Thank you very much, Cefin. Just so that everybody is aware, because we've touched on some of the most intense flooding that we've seen, in the pictures, as you rightly say, over the last 24 hours, there has been reported flooding to 60 residential properties, 28 of which are in Carmarthenshire, 12 in Pembrokeshire, 18 in Ceredigion, and two in Swansea. So, it has been quite widespread.

You ask about the support for householders. I've mentioned Flood Re, which is the insurance approach, but the Welsh Government also supports the Flood Re Build Back Better initiative, which we've mentioned in this Chamber before. We've asked the risk management authorities to help us promote awareness of this, because this allows participating insurers to offer up to £10,000 towards property flood resilience measures when repairing homes after a flood. They can be very immediate, very simple interventions to prevent flooding to that individual property, or, if flooding happens again, that you have things such as no wooden skirting boards, which will simply be taken away and washed away, or whatever, you have electricity points that are placed higher up, et cetera, et cetera, so you can be back on your feet much more quickly.

You raised the matter of schools. Indeed, we have had several schools closed. My officials and I have been in touch with the Cabinet Secretary for Education as well, because there is the question of those who have been affected with their education and, indeed, exams today. I know that the Cabinet Secretary for Education is also in touch with schools on that matter and how that can be dealt with, because this is an unforeseen eventuality, but those things will need to be considered as well. As for this moment, we still have the response ongoing, we need to help businesses and home owners back into their properties as soon as possible, and the recovery of it, as well as making sure that the education continues seamlessly as well.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

Item 4 is the 90-second statements. First, Sam Rowlands.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Last week, on World Stroke Day, we were reminded of a health crisis that too many people in Wales still don't fully understand: stroke. New research from the Stroke Association revealed that two thirds of people in Wales don't know that stroke is the leading cause of complex adult disability.

Every single day in the UK, 240 people experience a stroke, often leaving them unable to move, speak, see or even swallow. Stroke remains the fourth biggest killer in the UK, yet awareness of its long-term impact is alarmingly low. Here in Wales, around 70,000 people are living with the effects of stroke, and two thirds are left with a lifelong disability. Shockingly, only 35 per cent of survivors receive the essential six-month review to assess their recovery needs; that's the lowest rate in the last six years.

Organisations like the Stroke Association are urging the Welsh Government to act to make stroke care a national priority. That means 24/7 access to life-saving treatments, better mental health services, and ongoing rehabilitation for every survivor, no matter where they live in Wales.

Stroke can change a life in an instant, but with the right care and commitment, recovery is possible. Let's build on the message of World Stroke Day and make sure every stroke survivor in Wales gets the chance not just to survive, but to live well and to thrive. Diolch.

Rio de Janeiro, Barcelona, Melbourne, Seattle: these are but a few of UNESCO’s cities of literature. Now, Aberystwyth has been added to the list. Last week brought the excellent news that the bid submitted by the local partnership in Ceredigion was successful, and that Aberystwyth Ceredigion would be designated as an UNESCO city of literature, the first in Wales, the sixth in the United Kingdom, and one of just 50 or so worldwide.

The eagle-eyed among you will say, 'But Aberystwyth isn’t a city’. Correct. Not in the formal sense of the term. But it conducts itself and performs like a city. It's home to universities, to national cultural and literary bodies, to book shops and festivals, to publishers, authors, designers—in Welsh and in English. There is a long-standing tradition in Aberystwyth and Ceredigion of literature, poetry and publishing. Aberystwyth is the only town in Wales to have appointed a town bard. So, this designation isn’t just a title, it reflects the current literary activity in the area, and provides a route for using this new status and the sector to boost the local economy and to encourage inclusion and learning for the future.

In the words of the chair of Aberystwyth Ceredigion city of literature, Mererid Hopwood, 'First the award, and then to work'. So, congratulations to Aberystwyth Ceredigion. And by a stroke of luck, in that list of global cities of literature, Aberystwyth is at the very top. It’s handy, sometimes, to have a name that starts with ‘Ab’.

Thank you, both.

Item 5 is the motion to amend Standing Orders, changes resulting from the Legislation (Procedure, Publication and Repeals) (Wales) Act 2025. I call on a Member of the Business Committee to move the motion. Paul Davies.

Formally.

The proposal is to amend Standing Orders. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Item 6 is the motion to amend Standing Orders, Standing Order 17: voting in a Committee of the Whole Senedd and responsibility for meeting access. I call on a Member of the Business Committee to move the motion. Paul Davies.

Formally.

The proposal is to amend Standing Orders. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

We now move to a motion to elect a Member to a committee. I call on a Member of the Business Committee to formally move the motion. Paul Davies.

Formally.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Item 7, debate on a Member's legislative proposal: a Bill to ban the use of single-use plastic on fruits and vegetables. I call on Rhys ab Owen to move the motion.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you very much for the opportunity to put forward this legislative motion. I’m sure that all of us in the Siambr this afternoon, as we shop, or as we receive packages in the post, question why there is so much packaging wrapped around what we’ve received. Certainly, when we try to stuff the packaging into the recycling bin, and very often into a bin that isn’t a recycling bin, because we can’t recycle the packaging, it’s even harder to accept why we receive so much single-use plastic packaging.

It’s even more shocking when it comes to fruit and vegetables—those things that often have a natural wrapping already, a wrapper that is better than anything that could be produced by humankind. According to the Waste and Resources Action Programme, plastic packaging makes no difference whatsoever to the shelf life of over 20 fruit and vegetables—a number of them being the fruit and vegetables that are the most popular, and are used and eaten most often. Simply put, plastic packaging, very often, is entirely wasteful, is unnecessary, and is purposeless. We don’t need that packaging at all.

This proposal is that those items should not be packaged in plastic. They should be sold by weight and put in a paper bag, if necessary, to carry home. Because this is more than just an environmental issue. We know that when things are prepackaged in plastic, you've got to buy them as they are, and you've got to buy what's in the package already. Quite often, a family would not need everything that has been determined to them already, which has been placed in the plastic container already. And for those living through a cost-of-living crisis, this causes unnecessary hardship to them. They're spending their money on things they simply do not need, and that's stopping them from spending money on things that they do need.

Research has found that plastic packaging contributes to £2.1 billion-worth of food waste that happens in the UK—£2.1 billion-worth of food waste every year. Items unnecessarily prepackaged in plastic, in a predetermined quantity, come at the expense of being able to afford a different item. It's as simple as that. It stops them buying a different item that could contribute to a healthier and more varied diet.

As we all know, there's been a huge increase in foodbanks in Wales over the last few years—a 61 per cent increase according to the Trussell Trust. Food is becoming more and more unaffordable for many, and the ability to buy smaller amounts of multiple foods can help make the difference to get all the ingredients necessary for a healthy and proper meal.

When suggesting this risk, I was also considering the long-term risk of plastic. It's something I've raised with you, Dirprwy Brif Weinidog, on many occasions. As we all know, plastic breaks down in several different ways, many of which carry serious and untested health risks. When plastic breaks down into microplastics, it's then absorbed into the human body, and has now been found in all organs of the body, including our brains. Microplastics have also been connected to disorders in all systems of the body. For example, a study last year by the New England Journal of Medicine found that when micro and nano plastics were found in the plaque on a coronary artery, the person was more likely to suffer a heart attack, stroke or death. This is scary stuff, and things that haven't been tested enough in this country.

All sizes of plastic, from visible rubbish to microplastic and resultant forever chemicals, also have an impact on the environment and our ecosystem. Animals of all sizes are affected in multiple ways. In 2023 a paper was released detailing how wild sea birds are suffering from what's called plasticosis. Now, this is a kind of fibrosis induced by plastic that prevents the digestive system from working properly. That is just one example. Reducing the plastic produced and used and thrown away is therefore essential for a healthy world.

This is a proposal that would build on the innovative work done by the Senedd when it comes to tackling single-use plastic. I very much hope that the Senedd will consider this legislative proposal in the future. The advantages to me are entirely clear. I look forward to hearing your contributions. Thank you.

Thank you very much for raising this issue and recommending it as a legislative proposal. I think it's a much bigger problem than we realise and there are various sources of this contamination, both through the soil and the plastic packaging, and with fruit, vegetables, along with seafood, being particularly affected. So, there's no reason to do it and more and more information is turning up, both at Cardiff University, in New Mexico and other places, to show that it's penetrating our brains and it's passing the blood-brain barrier. The samples in New Mexico, taken in 2024, were significantly higher than in 2016. The work done by Cardiff University, working with the waste treatment plant in Newport, which is run by Dŵr Cymru, indicates very significant levels in wastewater, which is often, throughout Europe, spread on agricultural land, following treatment, and this obviously brings the plastic back into the whole food production system.

I would particularly recommend to anybody not to drink water from plastic water bottles—it can add around six times more microplastics into your system compared to just tap water. So, all these things are accumulating, and I would suggest that it's not to keep the fruit and vegetables fresh that the supermarkets are doing this—it's to please the people who are the bean counters in their organisations so that they can barcode exactly what's being sold and when.

So, I think we absolutely have to change the way we do things and to, if necessary, wrap things in paper bags or newspapers, which are easily used for free. So, I thank you very much for raising this issue and I hope that we can seriously consider it for a future piece of legislation.

I had no hesitation whatsoever when Rhys ab Owen asked me whether I would support him on this. Certainly, as a member of the climate change committee over the years, evidence that we've received proves how there does need now to be some legislation brought in that would prevent so much plastic being used. The Environmental Protection (Single-use Plastic Products) (Wales) Act has put our nation in the right direction, but we haven't gone quite far enough. In 2013-14, 13,781 tonnes of mixed plastics were disposed of from households. A decade later, the figure is up to 20,384 tonnes.

Marine Conservation Society beach cleans—and I've done a few of these—have reported that plastic accounted for 72 per cent of all recorded litter items in 2024. We cannot forget that microplastic pollution has been detected in human blood, with scientists finding the tiny particles in almost 80 per cent of people tested. The more we can do to reduce this unnecessary plastic use the better. A ban on the use of single-use plastic on fresh produce for fruits and vegetables would be the step in the right direction. Who on earth needs bananas wrapping up? They've come in their own protective skin. You know, we even see eggs now in polystyrene bases and then a polystyrene-type plastic lid—not necessary. WRAP's evidence shows that selling apples, bananas and potatoes loose could prevent 8 million shopping baskets-worth of food going to waste, having the added benefit of eliminating around 1,100 rubbish trucks of avoidable plastic every year. It would also, as has been rightly pointed out earlier, save our residents some money. Almost 1.7 million tonnes of edible fruit and vegetables are thrown away each year, costing us £4 billion.

So, during a cost-of-living and climate crisis, it is common sense to back a legislative proposal that empowers residents to buy exactly what they need and at the same time reducing any waste. In fact, this legislative proposal would work. For hundreds of years, at markets such as Llanrwst, Swansea, Machynlleth, produce has been sold loose. It's how things were done many years ago, and there was never a problem then. People want to choose what they want to buy and need. I see no reason why even more should be empowered to do so again and, as such, I thank you, Rhys, for bringing this forward. I encourage the Cabinet Secretary to take this forward. I ask all Members to support this very common-sense request and a 'thank you' to WRAP also for the work that they do. Diolch.

I would also like to thank Rhys ab Owen for bringing forward this important legislative proposal today. I was pleased to support it. The proposal is a simple one, but its impact would be significant, reducing both the amount of unnecessary plastic used across Wales and the amount of perfectly good food ending up in the bin. Wales has always led the way before. We were the first nation in the UK to introduce a plastic bag charge and it worked. Carrier bag use fell by more than 95 per cent and that bold action became a model for others to follow. I previously worked alongside Friends of the Earth to secure commitments from the retail consortium to install fridge doors across supermarkets. It was a practical step that reduces energy consumption and carbon emissions. And today's proposal is the next logical step in cutting the climate impact of our supermarkets and food supply chains.

Evidence shows that we are beginning to fall behind, and research from the anti-waste charity WRAP reveals that only 19.4 per cent of our fresh produce sales are sold loose, as compared with 50 per cent across mainland Europe. France has already gone further, passing legislation to ban plastic packaging on fresh produce altogether. If France can do it, why not Wales? We've made progress on the recycling of plastics in recent years, with supermarkets now collecting packaging for reuse. But the truth is stark: around 70 per cent of the plastics collected are still incinerated. The best solution is not to recycle more plastic but to create less of it in the first place.

Every year, people in the UK throw away around £2 billion-worth of fruits and vegetables, and packaging is not solving that problem, it’s making it worse. Studies show that wrapping fruit and veg in plastic does not extend its shelf life. It does force customers to buy more than they need, leading to 30 per cent of produce being wasted. The public want change: 83 per cent of consumers say they’re concerned about the amount of plastic in their food shopping, and this proposal directly responds to that concern. By ending the use of pointless plastic packaging where it makes no difference to shelf life, we can reduce waste, cut costs and protect our environment. So, today, Members, we have the chance to take another proud step forward to build on Wales’s record of leadership in sustainability and fairness. Let’s act where it matters most, and show once again that small, sensible changes can make a lasting difference. Diolch yn fawr.

I thank Rhys for tabling this proposal.

A slightly clumsy, slightly ugly phrase that’s used sometimes when we say that something is so obvious that it needs to be done is that it’s a 'no-brainer'. It feels like this is a no-brainer, but that does take on a slightly macabre element when we’ve just heard from Jenny that microplastics are now found in the brain; they are found in human breastmilk, they’re found in our blood. This is something that quite literally permeates into our lives, and it’s something that young people feel so passionately about. This is something that we have to guard against for their sake. It’s something very young children feel passionately about as well because of how quite viscerally frightening it will be for them. It is so important that we change this.

I would like on this particular matter quote the eco-committee at Ysgol y Lawnt in my region. They’ve said, ‘We’re trying to cut down on how much single-use plastic we use at the school. We’re doing this because we are concerned about the impact on animals, particularly marine animals, such as turtles, which think that they’re swallowing jellyfish.’ The children found that the cafe at the school was the worst place for single-use plastics, and they persuaded the school to use paper bags instead of clingfilm for snacks. The eco-committee also found crisp packets and plastic bags on the school yard and in the nearby river. The children were concerned that the river was carrying the plastics down towards Cardiff and out to sea. These children want to see Governments levying a tax on plastics to ensure that major corporations use packets made from plants rather than plastic, and they want to persuade these corporations to use more eco-friendly packaging materials.

I’d like to thank the pupils at the school for their enthusiasm and children and young people across Wales who believe so strongly in the need to reduce the use of single-use plastics. The measures outlined in this proposal are a good place to start. So, for the sake of future generations, for the children living in Wales today, we must tackle this. So, thank you, Rhys, I think this could make a difference. Thank you very much.

I call on the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. I also thank the Member for bringing forward this important debate and to the other Members for their valuable contributions this afternoon on the proposed Bill to ban the use of single-use plastics on fruits and vegetables.

I believe that many Members here in this Siambr—and, indeed, many members of the public in Wales—will share the bemusement and often frustration of Members here at seeing so much of our natural produce of fruits and vegetables in their natural wrappings being given plastic wrapping too on top of that. So, what I’m going to try and do in my response to this debate is to get a little bit under the skin of this proposal and offer Welsh Government’s thoughts on it. Now, as you know, Welsh Government, as has been remarked by Carolyn and others, has put waste reduction and prevention at the very heart of policy making, whether by tackling plastic pollution or encouraging recycling, and I have to say, reducing unnecessary food waste. We have proudly led the way across the UK, as has been noted. So, we’re making significant progress on this through the programme for government, and the groundbreaking—and it still remains groundbreaking—Environmental Protection (Single-use Plastic Products) (Wales) Act 2023, for example, has already restricted the supply of several commonly littered single-use plastic products, such as plastic straws, cutlery and cotton buds. And I'm very pleased that, only last week, the regulation on wet wipes received the assent here of this Senedd once again. So, once again, we are pushing forward. And we're proud to be recognised—I never tire of saying this, Dirprwy Lywydd—as the second best in the world, narrowly second best, for municipal recycling. And we're not stopping there; we're introducing the new workplace recycling reforms and piloting the collection of flexible plastics as well, pertinent to today's debate, to boost our recycling rates even more. There's work to be done on the flexible plastics issue. And it's important to note as well that this type of food packaging is already being addressed through the extended producer responsibility scheme. Now, that's really interesting, because that incentivises producers to minimise the unnecessary packaging by making them responsible for the associated costs. Now, in the first year of the scheme, it will see local authorities in Wales receive £89 million of additional investment to support the collection and management of these materials, but the EPR, of course, is based on the polluter-pays principle, so it incentivises those producers over time to reduce and reduce and reduce unnecessary packaging and avoid costs for them, as well as for the consumers.

And, of course, our circular economy strategy, which is 'Beyond Recycling', sets an ambitious target in terms of food waste. It's a 60 per cent reduction in avoidable food waste by 2030. Of course, alongside this, we have the Be Mighty campaign tackling food waste, which empowers households, works with households, to make smarter choices—comments have been made by Members already about the staggering amount of food waste that we currently have that goes into the bins; it's quite remarkable—so, using up what people purchase and purchasing responsibly, and the Love Food Hate Waste website and campaign as well, and practical campaigns, including what we're seeing going on this week, by the way, in terms of Climate Action Wales—practical everyday tips for people to help cut down on food waste.

I just wondered, as we're reaching the end of this Senedd, whether it's possible to include a target for eliminating plastic wrapping for fruit and veg in the Environment (Principles, Governance and Biodiversity Targets) (Wales) Bill, because I know there are targets that you're having to consider.

I don't think within the environmental governance Bill, because the targets that have been worked up for that have been long worked on, including with stakeholders who are trying to agree the set of meaningful targets. So, it's not that I am not open to that; it's actually where stakeholders amongst the environmental non-governmental organisations think our focus should be. However, we are in a period where everybody is thinking now, 'Well, what comes next?', in terms of policy offers going forward, whether it's legislation or whether it's other targets. This is an interesting period, where a lot of ideas are being put forward. In the current legislation, it would be interesting to see whether there was environmental stakeholder agreement to somehow lever that into it at this late period.

Can I just raise some of the other issues that WRAP have identified as things that need to be considered here? One of those is public perceptions of hygiene in handling fruit and vegetables. You rightly point out I'm used to going to a local grocer, a local fruit and veg supplier, loose vegetables put into a paper bag and so on. For many, myself included, this wouldn't be an issue. It would be very familiar. It's the traditional model of going to a grocer or a market and so on. However, understanding wider public perceptions, particularly in modern retail environments, is an important consideration that we need to think about.

Finally, we also need to think about those alternative solutions: what consumers will use, then, to carry the loose produce home, and whether these, in themselves, create new waste challenges or not, or avoiding those situations. So, I have to say, like many policy proposals that we consider, I don't think that these concerns are necessarily insurmountable. However—

I have given you quite a bit of time, Cabinet Secretary.

Oh, my apologies, my apologies. Including the intervention?

Including the intervention.

Oh. Well, let me say, in conclusion, then: to this end, we have already engaged with WRAP, our environmental NGO with expertise in the area, and with Government officials across the UK to discuss how the recommendations in the report—and I'd recommend it—'Removing packaging from uncut fresh produce' might be advanced.

I understand the motives behind this proposal, but I think that there are things to consider before we risk impacting, potentially, on consumers' costs in a cost-of-living crisis, but also some of the practicalities. But I agree with the sentiment here, which is that we need to reduce as much as possible plastic wrapping from fruit and veg, which are often naturally wrapped themselves.

Thank you very much to everyone for their contributions. As some have said already, thank you very much to WRAP and Friends of the Earth for their support.

Jenny mentioned more and more research in this area, and what we have already seen is frightening. Thinking about what you've mentioned, we can often think that it's a shame that Governments in the past didn't act on what they knew, and previous generations of leaders—it is a shame that they didn't act on what they knew, and acted more swiftly.

On the issue of plastic pollution and its impacts, as Jenny and experts say, we are nowhere near, probably, the future body of research that we will see. But, from what we have already seen, I think that we have got enough. We know enough already of its impact on the human body, on animal bodies. We know that there are multiple ways an excess of unnecessary plastic is damaging to household budgets, to human health and to our environment. We know all of this already. We do not need further research.

Janet Finch-Saunders, thank you, as always, for your support and for calling it common sense. We all enjoy hearing your stories about your regular beach litter picks, but it's incredible and frightening that 72 per cent of rubbish on beaches is plastics. I agree with you, Janet. It is bananas to see bananas packaged in plastic.

Another point: pre-packaged quantities of fruit and vegetables mean that it's difficult to ensure that the food you are buying is fresh and of good quality, unbruised. When I go to Canton fruit market, I can check the fruit and veg before I buy. When it's pre-packaged in plastic, we cannot. As Carolyn said, this is a simple proposal, like one we've done in the past, and it will bring us closer to the Wales and the world that we want to live in.

I agree with Delyth: it is a no-brainer. It's so obvious to primary school children that we should do this. I'm glad that you mentioned Ysgol y Lawnt, where my mother taught, and, I think, where she first met your mother—

Rhys, I have given you additional time as well.

I will finish now. Can I just address the Welsh Government's response? Now, I'm very used to the Dirprwy Brif Weinidog's—and other Welsh Ministers'—'howevers'. I'm used to, 'Oh, I agree with the sentiment, however, we need to check this. We need to do other research, another commission', or whatever. Can I just, please, maybe give a message for future Governments? I think we need bolder governance here in Wales, where people are willing to make decisions, where they don't wait and wait and wait until they know 100 per cent that this the right thing. Sometimes, we just need to get on and do it. Diolch yn fawr.

And a good point to finish.

The proposal is to note the motion. Does any Member object? [Interruption.]

Are you objecting? [Objection.] Yes, okay.

Yes, there is objection. Therefore, we'll defer voting under this item until voting time.

Item 8 today is a debate on the cross-committee report on the UK-EU implementation review of the trade and co-operation agreement. I call on the Chair of the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport and International Relations Committee to move the motion—Delyth Jewell.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'd like to put on record my thanks to all the committees, and the support teams behind those committees, who have been involved in this work. I'd like to give particular thanks to Sara Moran for her expertise and her work.

I'll begin today by outlining on behalf of my fellow committee Chairs the approach taken to this joint inquiry into the implementation review of the UK-EU trade and co-operation agreement. This work is unprecedented. Building on the efforts of our four committees throughout the sixth Senedd, the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport and International Relations Committee, the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee, the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee, as well as the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, have come together. Our joint aim was to consider in detail the Welsh Government's approach to the review and to examine the real-world effects of the trade and co-operation agreement on Wales.

Our inquiry was launched in anticipation of the formal review of the agreement in 2026. In August 2024, we published our terms of reference, and invited evidence on experiences of the trade and co-operation agreement since it came into force. We sought views on its effectiveness in practice, areas not fully implemented, unintended consequences, and the changes some stakeholders would like to see. In July 2025, Members also visited Brussels to engage directly with EU institutions and stakeholders.

This report brings together evidence across a wide range of policy areas: touring artists, the UK’s participation in EU programmes, Wales-EU trade, animal welfare, the environment, climate and energy. It also considers constitutional issues, including Wales’s international obligations and UK inter-governmental relations.

Throughout our deliberations, common themes emerged. The evidence was clear: the EU relationship remains of utmost importance to Wales. Despite the challenges brought about by Brexit, including the TCA’s terms, there is a strong desire to continue co-operation with the EU. Respondents suggested practical improvements, such as simplifying processes, providing clearer guidance and offering better support. Others called for more fundamental changes, including rejoining the EU, the single market and customs union and restoring freedom of movement. We also examined the role of the devolved nations in UK-EU relations, revisiting previous findings on inter-governmental arrangements and Wales’s representation at meetings. We considered the Senedd’s role in overseeing and scrutinising these arrangements, as well as legislation implementing UK-EU obligations.

For some time, committees have raised concerns about a lack of transparency and information on UK-EU matters, both domestically and at the UK-EU level. Finally, we reaffirmed the long-standing view of the culture committee and the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee that the absence of dedicated EU strategies at both a UK and a Wales level presents additional challenges for effective scrutiny of the Welsh Government's own EU priorities.

As we concluded our deliberations, the UK and EU announced the common understanding agreement in May 2025. This development provides a framework for closer co-operation and future negotiations, including commitments to explore youth mobility schemes and association to Erasmus+. Now, whilst these steps are most welcome, they do not yet address many of the concerns raised in evidence, particularly those affecting the creative sectors.

Collectively, our committees made 55 recommendations to the Welsh Government. It accepted 34, accepted in principle 15, rejected five, and agreed to one. There are key themes across the response. Firstly, the number of recommendations made reflects the paucity of information published by the Welsh Government on the TCA, UK-EU relations and on its EU priorities. The reality is, Dirprwy Lywydd, that we are all only aware of its EU priorities because my committee has, during the sixth Senedd, made repeated requests to the Welsh Government for them. The effort made by all of us to find out the most basic information is disproportionate to the importance of the EU relationship to Wales.

Secondly, it is difficult to discern in the response what the Government will do differently as a result of our work—our four committees' historic work. In the face of such stark messages, those who gave evidence deserve more.

Thirdly, since 2021, my committee and the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, have sounded the alarm on the diminishing voice of Welsh stakeholders in UK-EU relations. Our stakeholders should be supported to take part, to inform decisions, and to have a seat at the table, but this is not the case. The response says it all. No financial support, no record of how it is advertised membership of expert bodies, and no deliberate effort to ensure Welsh groups are linked to UK-wide groups. Dual membership is left to chance, reliant on goodwill and resource of individual organisations. No wonder then that our predictions over the years of a fading Welsh presence have played out. It is left to chance. I'm reminded of the words of Clare Dwyer Hogg in her poem about the realities of hard Brexit on the border in Northern Ireland, and she says,

'chance and hope come in forms like steam and smoke.'

Fourthly, and lastly, the Welsh Government's relationship to the UK Government looms large in this work. It appears from the Cabinet Secretary's response that the UK Government isn't going to publish its EU priorities. It declined an invitation from we four Chairs to give evidence to this inquiry, and now it has not responded to our report as requested. I would welcome the Cabinet Secretary's view on how the UK Government is taking Wales into account in UK-EU relations, because the optics are not good.

I call on the Chair of the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee, Llyr Gruffydd.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'm pleased to be able to contribute to today's debate, as you say, in light of my role as the Chair of the committee, and I, like Delyth, would like to thank my fellow Chairs and committee members for their co-operation in drawing together this joint report.

The committee has repeatedly raised concerns that Wales has an environmental governance gap since Brexit. You'll know that I've said that in this Chamber a number of times. Of course, the TCA contains no dedicated chapter on environment and climate co-operation. Instead, it focuses on the environment within the context of trade. The TCA includes some high-level environmental provisions, but these largely reflect existing international commitments. Neither do the level playing field provisions and non-regression commitments replace environmental co-operation as was experienced under EU membership.

EU alignment and divergence aren't explicit priorities for the Welsh Government in terms of the review. Common understanding envisages the UK's alignment to EU rules in specific areas, including on emissions trading and electricity. The Cabinet Secretary did acknowledge potential benefits of closer alignment with the EU on a case-by-case basis, but there is a lack of clarity around the Welsh Government's overarching approach.

Stakeholders called for alignment on decarbonisation in light of the UK and EU's introduction of separate carbon border taxes. The TCA commits the UK and the EU to consider linking their emissions trading systems, which could potentially avoid carbon border taxes on UK-EU imports and exports. We heard calls for linkage to be expedited, saying that it would reduce the burden on businesses.

The Welsh Government told us that they have undertaken an initial internal analysis on the potential implications of the EU's carbon border tax for Welsh exports. However, it's disappointing that only limited information on linking emissions trading systems is currently available, particularly given the environmental and climate impacts of trade, like the increases in air pollution and, of course, in Wales's carbon footprint.

Given the TCA includes provision for potential ETS linkage, and in light of consistent calls from stakeholders for strategic alignment between the UK and EU systems, it's concerning that neither emissions trading systems nor carbon border taxes are currently prioritised in the Welsh Government's review agenda. We recommended that the Welsh Government should finalise a clear position on ETS linkage as a matter of priority, and I have to say, we are disappointed that this was only accepted in principle. So, we ask that the Cabinet Secretary keeps us updated on forthcoming negotiations relating to ETS linkage, as a minimum.

We are pleased that more effective and longer term electricity trading arrangements are one of the Welsh Government’s priorities for the TCA review. The common understanding commits the UK and EU to explore the UK’s participation in the EU’s single electricity market, including its trading platforms, which, of course, we hope could reduce energy bills.

I call on a member of the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee, Hannah Blythyn.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Today I'll be speaking on behalf of the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee.

The total of Wales's trade in goods is currently £37.6 billion, and £17.6 billion of that, 47 per cent, is with the EU. It is our biggest trading partner and is fundamental to our economy. We need the relationship to work. We know that the UK's new relationship with the EU has resulted in increased trade barriers. The evidence we received very much brought this home. Our report documents evidence of increased bureaucracy, costs, time and disruption to supply chains, and unintended or unforeseen consequences. Ninety per cent of businesses are still dealing with challenges. According to committee witnesses, processes cause extreme levels of cost, administration, complications and loss, intense annoyance, and are hugely frustrating. Therefore, understanding the full impact of the TCA is imperative in order to inform decisions and support for Welsh businesses.

Our first recommendation, which was rejected, called on the Welsh Government to produce a prospective document on the TCA in line with its approach to other international trade agreements. In response, the Welsh Government maintains that the TCA has been in operation for several years and that analysis of its impacts is already available. To our knowledge, our committee's reports are the first such accounts of Wales-specific impacts of the operation of the TCA. So, could I ask the Cabinet Secretary to share a list of analyses to which the Government's committee response refers to, in order to inform our future work?

The Welsh Government also makes the case that potential changes from current negotiations will render any immediate report out of date almost immediately. However, this would appear to contradict the case made to the culture committee that negotiations are unlikely to result in changes to the text of the TCA. As set out in the report, a Welsh Government document on the TCA has not been published since 2021.

We heard in evidence that businesses would benefit from more information, more guidance and more support from Government. With that in mind, the Government's response doesn't quite address committee questions about plans to support the affected sectors that we heard from. We know there are likely more than those from whom we took direct evidence, and a Government assessment would provide a clearer picture from which to work.

The committee's understanding is that the Welsh Government has done comparative work for every other post-Brexit trade agreement, agreements with partners where the trading value to Wales does not come anywhere near to the value of EU trade to Wales. Perhaps, then, the Cabinet Secretary could set out today why there's been a resource dedicated to understanding trade agreements with Wales's smaller trading partners, but not its largest to date.

I would like to thank my colleagues across all of the committees for their joint work on this report. Co-operation of this kind is a sign of the cross-cutting nature of the trade and co-operation agreement and its importance to Wales. Thank you.

I call on the Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, Mike Hedges.

Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer. I had a bit of a problem getting unmuted. Can I start where the last speaker just finished and say that it's nice to see four committees getting together to produce this report? I hope it is setting a precedent for the next Senedd. Because we're not working in silos, and I agree with everything Hannah Blythyn said when she gave that report.

The Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee was pleased to contribute to the report on the implementation review. In doing so, the committee considered the constitutional, external affairs and inter-governmental relationship elements of the trade and co-operation agreement.

The post-Brexit UK-EU relationship remains highly relevant to the committee's work, given the increasing complexity of multiple international treaties, over 30 joint forums and legislation that either implements or touches on UK-EU matters in devolved areas. We believe it is vital that the Welsh Government has the opportunity to set out its position on devolved matters well in advance of any UK-EU meeting. It was regrettable that a meeting of the inter-ministerial group on UK-EU relations only occurred a week before the May reset summit—too late to have any meaningful impact on the UK's negotiating position.

We welcome the commitment made by the Cabinet Secretary to request that the group's terms of reference are updated. Perhaps she could set out a timeline for these discussions. It was more concerning to note that not only were the Welsh Government not invited to discuss and agree the UK Government's priorities for the review, but they weren't informed of any priorities in advance. The committee, therefore, said that the Welsh Government should call on the UK Government to outline their priorities for the review as a matter of urgency. The Cabinet Secretary confirms in her response that the UK Government still has not done so publicly.

The Welsh Government's observer status in UK-EU meetings is another serious concern. Whilst Welsh Government officials can propose an agenda item and influence discussion, it is questionable whether this status allows them to fully represent Wales. In our previous report on UK-EU governance, the committee concluded there was a strong and compelling case, with broad consensus among stakeholders, for further inclusion of devolved institutions in formal governance structures. We were concerned by the Cabinet Secretary's view that observer status is sufficient and reject the argument put forward that EU member states also have observer status. This misses a key point. The EU's competence extends only so far as it is conferred on it by member states, meaning that the trade and co-operation agreement is wholly in the EU's competence. It's the exact opposite of the UK constitutional reserved model, where the TCA cuts across reserved and devolved competencies.

It's been very interesting and fascinating listening to this debate. As a new Member—I obviously wasn't here in the previous Senedd when we were still members of the European Union—coming in following the referendum vote and understanding the Senedd's role within the future relationship between the United Kingdom and the European Union is something that I have really enjoyed getting my teeth stuck into. I have been very fortunate to have attended the UK-EU Parliamentary Partnership Assembly with my good friend Alun Davies and the Deputy First Minister, when he was previously the Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee.

That was where I really saw that maybe Wales's voice is not being represented. Alun and I sent a joint letter saying that we needed speaking rights within the PPA as a Senedd. I think that was wholly important, and that is something that I still think, going forward, we need to champion—our ability to contribute in the PPA. That is something that I think is long-standing, that commitment.

It was only through the relationships forged behind the scenes by the now Deputy First Minister, by myself, by Alun Davies, by Luke Fletcher as well—who is a representative of the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee, who also attends the UK-EU PPA—that we were able to get Welsh concerns, Welsh opportunities, Welsh challenges raised at the PPA. I think that was beneficial, but it should be formalised. So, that is one of my biggest takeaways from this.

I wanted to keep my remarks short. I concur with much of what Hannah Blythyn has said on behalf of the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee. But what I found quite refreshing was—and it has been stressed a number of times here today—the cross-working of a number of committees, because our relationship with the European Union does lean into every single one of the committees that the Senedd has and is represented. So, it's right that when something of this importance comes together, we as a Senedd are able to be flexible in how we scrutinise, how we challenge the Government, because that is our role as backbenchers, to challenge and scrutinise the Government and ensure that they are doing the best to represent Wales and Wales's interests. So, I have really enjoyed the ability to do that on this cross-committee basis.

I would like to commend the hard work of the Commission staff as well, who have really worked tirelessly on this. Sometimes it is like herding cats with us as committee members and backbenchers, but I think the quality of the piece of work that has come out from this is a testament to that strength of working and to the chairmanship of all those who chair the committees as well. Diolch yn fawr.

The TCA review is an opportunity for us to stocktake on where we are. I think the four committees are to be commended on the level of detail in the report and the 55 recommendations, but if I can sum it up, we are in a mess, aren't we? The WTO last week produced their first post-Brexit review of UK trade, and it was pretty sobering reading, wasn't it? It showed the decline, relatively speaking, in goods exports. We're still, the UK, 17 per cent, in total volume of exports, below where we were in 2018.

At the same time, there’s been a huge increase, of course, in services exports—up 73 per cent since 2010—and what that means is that the UK now is the only G7 economy where service exports are greater than goods exports. And, of course, that has been accelerated by Brexit. And where does that hurt? Well, that hurts parts of the UK like Wales, because we are more reliant on goods exports with our manufacturing and agricultural bases, and, of course, we have smaller companies, by and large, as well. As the WTO pointed out, large companies can cope with regulatory and political risk, et cetera, and there were no risks bigger than Brexit. Smaller companies can't, because they don't have the capacity and the scope to do it. So we have been hurt the hardest.

There's no point wallowing in despair. So what are we going to do? I think that we can take a leaf, maybe, out of Northern Ireland's book. They're in a far more fortunate position than us. They are the bridge, aren't they? They are the bridge between the EU and the UK. Well, maybe we can be the beacon. We can be the lighthouse by which we can steer the UK. Maybe together, maybe Wales on its own can steer a path back to the EU, step by step. They are the gatehouse, we can be the greenhouse of new ideas, sector by sector, which allow us to get closer to our main trading partners.

For example, we can lead by example on environmental alignment. We saw last week concern that EU officials have been expressing in terms of the infrastructure and planning Bill. We discussed that yesterday—that trying to, basically, engage in a race to the bottom in order to promote economic growth through cutting back on environmental standards could break the level playing field rules of the TCA. That's not the way to drive economic development. What we should be doing—and I hope the next Government, a Plaid Cymru Government, will do this—is passing an alignment Act so that we can send out a message to the EU, practically and symbolically, that we want to align with the best in class of environmental standards right across the piece, because that's the way that we want to drive economic development, by driving up standards.

On exports, how do we respond to the reduction, relatively speaking, in exports? We don't do what the UK Government is doing by actually sacking 20 per cent of the export promotion officers in embassies right across the world. Madness—absolute madness. We need to set up our own development agency with an export promotion arm, increasing our footprint of representation in key markets so that we can actually drive up Welsh exports, working with businesses, sector by sector, the length and breadth of Wales.

I agree very much with what's been said by other Members about the importance of committees working together and collaborating on these matters. I sat on two of the four committees that examined this, so I did a fair amount of collaborating with myself on this report. But one of the most striking features of the evidence that we took—and we took evidence from a wide range of stakeholders on these matters—was the unanimity of the evidence that we received. Quite often, of course, you can take evidence on something like this and have wildly different interpretations and viewpoints, which makes the synthesising of the report almost impossible. But on this there was unanimity.

I can think of no witness who came in front of our committees who said that Brexit had benefited Wales. I can't think of a single witness. I can't think of anybody who said, 'Do you know what? Wales has benefited from Brexit.' We spoke to people from across different sectors. One of the most heartbreaking things, actually, was speaking to people like musicians, who had been travelling around Europe, sharing our culture across the European continent—our common civilisation—and they listed all the barriers to that now. Creating barriers between peoples: it's the most heartbreaking thing that I can think of. We've heard—and Hannah explained this afternoon—about the decline in volumes of trade. Now, if anybody needs to know why we're in the economic situation that we're in today, you need to do no more than read that chapter of the report. The reduced volumes of trade lead to the reductions in tax available to the economy and to the Government, and lead directly, then, to some of the issues that we have in our public services. What Brexit has been successful in doing, of course, is creating barriers, costs and bureaucracy. There are a number of people who spoke about the additional costs to businesses and the inability of businesses to export in the way that they used to do. All of these issues are creating more complexity in an economy, and anybody who's run a business will tell you that you need less complexity, fewer barriers, you need more open borders, and you need to be able to trade to create wealth, which can then be redistributed. This is GCSE stuff. And yet, the Government of the United Kingdom at the time created those barriers and they described it as a triumph of democracy. Well, it's certainly not what Winston Churchill had in mind when he spoke about the creation of a European Union in his Zurich speech at the end of the second world war. And it certainly isn't what anybody put to the British people in 2016.

So, we have here a unanimity, both from committees and from the evidence received. So, what do we do in order to take these matters forward? I think we need to reinvent some of our own democracy, in fact, because one thing that the withdrawal Act demonstrates is the importance of parliamentary scrutiny. Those of us who were Members at the time remember being brought back here after Christmas, before the new year—I'm sure the Presiding Officer will remind me exactly when it was. My memory is that it was the end of December; I might be wrong. But we were brought back here for an afternoon to pass a consent motion: brought back here for an afternoon to pass a consent motion in an hour on one of the most far-reaching pieces of legislation that I can remember us debating in this place in the time that I've been a Member. In Westminster, they had 12 hours. And what we've seen since then, of course, is the work that was done by the European Parliament, where they had several months to do the same piece of work, and they were able to identify all the issues that have plagued our relationship with the European Union since that date. And that is the importance of parliamentary scrutiny.

I'd like to begin by acknowledging the hard work of the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport and International Relations Committee in producing our section of this report, along with the essential work of the clerks and committee staff and, indeed, those across the committees who all contributed to the UK-EU implementation review of the TCA. It provides a valuable overview of how the trade and co-operation agreement continues to shape Wales's cultural and international landscape, but as Conservatives and supporters of Brexit, we have a responsibility to make sure this conversation is rooted in opportunity and optimism, not nostalgia for EU membership. It's clear from the evidence we've seen that many organisations who gave evidence still see re-entry to the single market, the customs union or even freedom of movement as solutions to the challenges they face. I respect those views, but I have to say plainly that debate on those is over. The people of the United Kingdom, and most importantly of Wales, voted to leave the EU, and our task should be to make Brexit work for Wales, not to re-run the arguments of 2016 or drift towards re-entry by stealth.

There are strong arguments for re-evaluating elements of the single market, but rejoining the customs union would be incredibly foolish, given that it was always the most harmful aspect of our membership, particularly as we sell more outside of the European Union than to the EU, and this was the case when we were still a member of the EU and something we were penalised for. The trade and co-operation agreement gives the UK full control over its trade, its borders and its laws. It also allows us to tailor solutions where they are needed, which is sensible. And that is exactly how we should approach issues like the touring arts, creative mobility and youth exchange, through practical targeted agreements, not by signing away sovereignty or regulatory control.

I welcome the UK Government's common understanding with the EU earlier this year, which recognised the value of cultural exchange and set the stage for constructive talks on youth mobility and travel for artists. These are the kinds of incremental steps that will deliver results without compromising the freedoms that Brexit secured. However, I must say that the Welsh Government's approach has too often lacked focus. Instead of calling for even broader EU strategies or hinting at rejoining multiple EU programmes, Ministers should be concentrating on how to use these powers that they already have. Programmes like Taith, designed and delivered here in Wales, show that international exchange doesn’t depend on Brussels. They demonstrate that we can design something more flexible, more inclusive and better suited to Welsh needs.

And while it is right that we can maintain close working relationships with European partners, I do find it disappointing that so much of the Welsh Government's rhetoric still suggests that the only route to success lies through EU structures. Where are the new partnerships with Canada, Japan or Australia? Where is the same energy for strengthening our global links through the UK's new trade deals? I’m also concerned that Labour Members of the Senedd are calling for Britain's re-entry into the European Union, and two of the Members in question have set up a cross-party group on this subject. So, I'd like the Welsh Government to clarify whether this is the official position of the Welsh Labour Party, to rejoin the European Union, and I'd be grateful if the Cabinet Secretary could make that clear in her response to this debate.

The Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning now to contribute to the debate—Rebecca Evans.

Thank you. I'd like to thank all MS colleagues and also stakeholders who contributed to this work, and for the effort and the care that's gone into producing the report. It really is a comprehensive piece of work, and it covers a really wide range of important areas, and I commend all four committees for working collaboratively to produce what we've heard is the first joint report of its kind of the Senedd. The scope of the report and the need for the involvement of all four committees really does demonstrate just how many varied topics a trade negotiation can cover.

As discussion of the TCA progressed, the UK and the EU announced the new agreement in May 2025, the common understanding agreement, which set out the way forward for further co-operation between the UK and the EU. Whilst the Welsh Government welcomed this announcement, as we've always advocated for a closer association with the EU, I think this is a really good example of just how quickly the trade landscape can change and how we as a Welsh Government have to be constantly reviewing and updating our positions. There are always a large number of recommendations in a report of this kind, and I absolutely agree with the comments of the Chair in the foreword that the common themes begin to emerge in relation to the review of the TCA, and by extension to the work for the negotiations for the common understanding. Due to the large number of recommendations, I'll try and address some of the themes, as it's impossible to go through each of the recommendations individually.

An important theme that stands out is the role of the Senedd, and the role that it must have in reviewing trade negotiations. Whilst only the UK Government can conclude legally binding agreements on behalf of the four nations, many of the UK's trade agreements, such as the EU TCA and the negotiations around the common understanding, are in areas that are devolved. I recognise that it is important that the Senedd has an opportunity to scrutinise and to give a view on the range of topics that are being negotiated. But that also then has to be balanced with our obligations as a Welsh Government not to disclose information that may jeopardise those negotiations. So, I do hope that I and my officials have struck the right balance in this regard by providing information and updates to committees that allow for an overview of the direction of negotiations, whilst also not compromising those negotiations themselves.

And that's also why the Welsh Government has committed to producing a report, our perspectives document, on key trade agreements only once we are able to provide information. These reports will enable the Senedd to understand and scrutinise how each agreement might impact Wales, and this is something that we will continue to do for the EU negotiations once they are complete.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary. Delyth Jewell now to reply to the debate, Chair of the committee.

Thank you, Llywydd, and thank you to everyone who's contributed. I would like to thank the representatives of all the committees who have set out the barriers facing all of these areas, be it businesses, our environment, governance, and our ability to understand the workings of our Governments.

Some discrepancies have been highlighted too in the information given to our various committees on the same questions at some points. It was useful to hear Members' own individual reflections—Sam's reflections on the PPA and the need for Wales's voice to be heard. And yes, Alun is right: the unanimity of the evidence we received was stark. I agree too about the heart-breaking, the heart-rending effect of hearing about the barriers being placed perversely in trade, be it monetary trade or the trade in ideas, innovation, experiences. It is not barriers we need, but to be a beacon, as Adam suggested. Nor can I disagree either with Adam's quite stark summary of the 55 recommendations, that we are indeed in a mess. But it is not a mess that should be insurmountable. There are plenty of ideas here. There is more than enough appetite for change. I thank the Cabinet Secretary for her response. I'm still not clear, though, how things will change as a result of this work. This cannot be another report that is left on a shelf. This should be a chance to change things. We must do better.

As we conclude this debate, Llywydd, I want to reflect on what this inquiry has taught us as committees, and why its findings matter for the future of Wales. This inquiry has demonstrated the complexity of the EU-UK relationship and its profound implications for Wales. The challenges before us are significant, but so too are the opportunities. It's perhaps one of the only ways in which I would agree with the points that Gareth made—we have to look, of course, at the opportunities that are provided at this crucial juncture.

The common understanding agreement signals a willingness to reset relations. Likewise, the upcoming review of the TCA provides a platform for influence and change. This is a moment for ambition, and for Wales not to be a mere passive observer in the processes that happen. We must take an active role in shaping outcomes that matter to our culture, our economy, our environment, our communities. That means championing solutions for businesses facing complex—overly complex—rules. It means advocating for creative professionals, who need workable touring arrangements. It means ensuring that young people regain opportunities for cultural and educational exchange. It means that facing transboundary challenges should be made together, from the fight against climate change to the security of our energy supplies.

We have to think strategically. A dedicated EU strategy is not a luxury; it is a necessity. It would provide clarity, coherence and a framework for engagement. Without it, we risk navigating the complexities of UK–EU relations without a clear road map, without the beacon that Adam had talked about. So, let us seize these moments with determination and with vision. This is not just about restoring what was lost. It is about building a future that works for Wales. We must ensure that Wales's voice is heard and that our relationship with the EU reflects the values and the aspirations of the people we serve.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? There is no objection. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

Item 9 is the Plaid Cymru debate on a national care service for Wales. Mabon ap Gwynfor is moving the motion.

Diolch, Llywydd. The health and care service in Wales rests on three pillars: primary care, secondary care and social care. Of those three, social care is perhaps the most fragile, the least supported and often the most forgotten. And yet it's a service that every one of us, at some stage in our lives, will rely on. Whether it's an ageing parent, a disabled partner, or a neighbour needing daily help, social care touches us all.

We are an ageing nation, after all. People in Wales are living longer, but not necessarily healthier, lives. The gap between healthy life expectancy and overall life expectancy—nearly 18 years for men and 22.5 years for women—is the widest of any UK nation. That means that, for almost two decades of their lives, too many of our citizens live with illness, frailty or disability. Age-related conditions such as dementia are already among our leading causes of death. By 2040, over 53,000 people in Wales will be living with severe dementia. That reality alone should compel any Government with moral purpose to act.

Nearly a decade has passed since the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act became law. Yet its good intentions remain unrealised on the ground. Too many rights exist on paper only. There has been no coherent strategy, no meaningful insight and no consistent follow-through from this Government. The result is a postcode lottery of care across Wales.

The rhetoric of well-being and prevention has not been matched by implementation nor investment. The regional partnership boards were intended to bridge the gap between health and social care, but, without statutory footing or clear accountability, their impact is limited, and money is transferred from local authority to an RPB and back again within the same day, more often than not, without having made any meaningful impact to improve people's lives.

Stakeholders have called time and time again for a practical plan in order to ensure that carers and those in receipt of care do see the rights that this Act promised delivered. Too often those calls have been ignored. This failing to live up to the legislation is clear to everyone when it comes to the lack of support for unpaid carers, that hidden workforce that our health and social care systems would be destroyed without. There are around 100,000 unpaid carers in Wales today who are living in poverty. Many are juggling work, childcare and other caring responsibilities without financial support, without sufficient respite, and with too few opportunities to rest or recover.

Under the Act, local authorities have a clear duty to assess the welfare needs of carers through a carer's needs assessment, and they could be eligible for the preparation and introduction of a statutory plan of support. These assessments should set out not only what support is needed by the carers day to day, but also whether they need respite—simple, human recognition. But it doesn't work, and only around 8 per cent receive these assessments, with hundreds of thousands of carers living their lives without the necessary support.

Now, when policy works, then it makes a difference. The national short-breaks scheme has shown what's possible when good policy, which is understandable and doesn't ask too much, gets the necessary support. An independent evaluation has shown that it's reaching those people who are most in need, including reaching carers who have gone a whole year without a single break from their caring responsibilities. That is transformational. It's an example of what can be achieved when national objectives are paired with trust and local investment. It proves that, when we empower community organisations and listen to the carers themselves, we can provide care that feels personal, compassionate and effective.

Alongside that, the carers support fund has proved to be crucial support for those suffering most as a result of poverty. I'm not one who avoids saying when things are done well. We need to maintain that good practice. Whether our carers are paid or unpaid, they are the backbone of our care system, and yet too often they are under-valued, underpaid and ignored. For too many people who need care, the provision is inconsistent at best and expensive or inaccessible for too many people.

The Welsh Government's national care service, which began through our co-operation agreement with the Government, was planned in order to change that: to create an integrated system that gives the same value to care and to our health. The intention was to ensure a fair wage for care workers, appropriate support for unpaid carers and an unbroken partnership between health and social care. But, under the guidance of this Government, progress has been painfully slow. What started as a bold vision has been allowed to drag on without direction. Because any plan, no matter how worthy, is not fit for purpose without the political will to drive it forward. We need urgent action. We need clarity on ambition. We need a map to set out how the national care service will bring together services, funding and accountability in order to deliver and ensure that people and their families are not let down.

Rachel Reeves said yesterday that there were painful decisions ahead. What's painful to a Chancellor of the Exchequer sitting in Downing Street with a £164,000 salary is very different to what is painful to a person living in chronic pain, needing care but having to choose between heating, eating or an extra hour of help. We have more people in Wales living in need of care because of our older, sicker and poorer circumstances. I have not heard anything from the Secretary of State for Wales championing Wales's needs, and this Government has remained silent during the UK budget process on the need to ensure that we receive the required funding to care for the people of Wales.

Local authorities are being asked to push people to the brink, forced into painful decisions of their own. How much will they increase the most regressive tax, which hurts the poorest the most? Which services will they close? Will they have to make key workers redundant? And that is the context in which social care providers are expected to function.

So, the solution must be twofold: investment, yes, but also clear national direction, a shared understanding that social care is not a cost to be contained, but a service that sustains communities, enables independence and strengthens the economy. Imagine what Wales could achieve if we treated social care not as a crisis to manage, but as a national asset to build upon, where people's access to care isn't dependent on how deep their wallets are; a system where carers have genuine rights and access to respite, where the carers support fund and the short-break scheme are embedded as core pillars of support, where local innovation is backed by national commitment. That is the Wales that Plaid Cymru wants to see, a Wales where care is not the forgotten pillar of our health system, but its foundation.

Dirprwy Lywydd, the moral test of any Government is how it treats those who give care and those who need it. It's time to pass that test. So, let's accelerate the process towards a truly national care service, one that delivers on its promises, values its people, and gives dignity to every citizen it serves. Because when we care better, we all live better. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I have selected the amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call on James Evans to move amendment 1 in the name of Paul Davies.

Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer, and I move the amendment tabled in the name of my colleague Paul Davies. As has been rightly said, this debate today is on social care in Wales, and I think it's a debate we need to have more and more regularly, because it is a system that truly works for those people who rely on it, when it works, and when it isn't falling down. But I think what we do need to acknowledge is it is a system under huge strain. The people who are working in it are under huge strain, and the people who need to access it can't get that timely access that they need, and that really does need to change.

The Government's programme to establish a national care service, developed through the co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru, was announced with ambition, and it was warmly received on these benches at the time, but progress has been slow. I'm sure the Minister will update us later on what progress has been made because, years on, we're still lacking that clear structure, the accountability and the measurable outcomes of what that national care service is going to deliver.

Our amendment does regret the Labour-Plaid Cymru plan, that it has failed to deliver that meaningful change. As I said, the sector remains under pressure, and the gaps between policy and practice continue to grow, because time and time again, Government come out with a policy and, unfortunately, it isn't implemented on the ground.

There are other problems facing our social care sector, aren't there? The UK Labour Government's decision to raise national insurance contributions has placed further burdens on employers, threatening the viability of many small and medium-sized care providers across Wales. Care businesses need support, not extra costs, and I'm sure I'm not the only Member who speaks to care providers in my own constituency who tell us how the national insurance contributions put a real pressure on them, and actually their ability to employ those fantastic staff who work in our social care sector. It's very disappointing that we've actually not heard much on that from the Welsh Government, in opposition to what their colleagues have been doing down in Westminster.

But I think what we need to regret as well is the Welsh Government's ongoing failure to build and retain a sustainable care workforce across Wales, because social care staff continue to face low pay, poor progression and limited access to training, despite being on the front line of community well-being, because if we didn't have those staff there, we would not be able to support the people who really do need that care. What I want to see is better career progression for people in our social care system. I want to see them have better training opportunities. I want to see them have better pay for the work that they do, because the work they do is absolutely phenomenal, supporting the most vulnerable people in our society.

You have.

—and I would encourage everybody today to support the Welsh Conservative amendment.

And I call on the Minister for Children and Social Care to move amendment 2, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt.

Do you formally move the amendment?

Formally, sorry.

Thank you. Sioned Williams.

Across Wales, more than 300,000 people care for a loved one. These unpaid carers hold families together when the system around them is falling apart, cooking meals, managing medication, providing round-the-clock care, often with no support, no rest and no recognition. While their care keeps services afloat, worth over £10 billion a year, they themselves are sinking—sinking into exhaustion, financial hardship and, too often, invisibility.

When the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 was introduced, it promised a better deal for carers, the right to well-being, the right to information and advice, and the right to a needs assessment. Yet rights are only as strong as their delivery, and in Wales that delivery has fallen desperately short. The Government talks about driving delivery in their amendment, but I'm afraid that's where the problem lies. In their 2024 report, the Public Services Ombudsman for Wales found that just 2.8 per cent of carers in the four investigated local authorities had received a carers' needs assessment, and just 1.5 per cent had received a support plan.

Carers Wales says that due to a lack of funding and increased demand for support, local authorities are often not offering any support for carers and providing limited support for others. Their recently published 'State of Caring in Wales 2025' survey found that 75 per cent of those who responded had not had a carers' needs assessment in the last 12 months. We can't let this continue. The consequences, both human and financial, are absolutely unsustainable.

We hear so much about the need to take a preventative approach to health and social care. What could be more preventative than the call in our motion to ensure that all unpaid carers receive a needs assessment within a 28-day period? So, will the Government commit to that? And if not, why not?

The report from Carers Wales reveals such a concerning picture, but it's unfortunately a very familiar picture that we hear described in debate after debate, year after year. The report worryingly shows a 53 per cent increase in the number of unpaid carers in Wales cutting back on essentials since last year. Fifty-three per cent. A third of carers are cutting back on food or heating. Two thirds say their financial situation is harming their mental health. One in 10 is already in debt because of their caring role. And, of course, behind every statistic are people, people who are struggling. The experiences conveyed in the report say it all. One said, 'Only my husband’s room is heated; I just wear six layers in the winter.'

The Welsh Government, under the 2014 Act, has a duty to promote the well-being of carers, and that means creating accountability when those rights are not delivered. So, does the Government agree with Plaid Cymru that it's time for a revised implementation plan, one with ring-fenced funding, clear timelines and robust accountability to make those rights a lived reality? Too many carers are being left with inadequate support.

You need to conclude now, please, Sioned.

Yes, this is my last sentence. Is the Government proud of its record in supporting unpaid carers? Does it think that the 52 per cent of unpaid carers in Wales cutting back on food and heating would be proud of what the Welsh Government claims to have achieved in relation to support for carers across the quarter century it's been in power in Wales? Diolch.

I'm very pleased that we're having this debate on the national care service today. I was very pleased to work with Cefin Campbell. Is he—? Yes, Cefin Campbell is there. These pillars get in the way sometimes. But I was very pleased to work with Cefin on pushing forward the idea of having a national care service as part of the co-operation agreement, and I really valued the progress and the work that we did together.

We established an expert group. That was the way we started it off, with both parties putting forward names and having independent experts in the field, who worked very intensely and then came up with a plan. The plan was that a national care service should be brought in in stages over 10 years, and that was what we agreed on. The first part would be the setting up of a national office and developing national standards, and I'm sure the Minister will be able to report to us what exactly has happened with that. But I certainly think that we have made progress towards moving towards a national care service.

But I do think that a lot of the things that the Government has done has contributed towards setting out the parameters of a national care service. One of the big things that has been done is introducing the real living wage to all social care workers, and I think this was a groundbreaking thing to do. That has recently been increased to £13.45 per hour. So, every adult social care worker in Wales should be paid on the real cost of living at the moment. Because, of course, the real living wage is independently calculated on the real cost of living. I think that is something that we should celebrate. There's a huge amount to do and I'm not denying that there's a big challenge ahead of us, but I think establishing this baseline is an essential part of moving to a national care service.

The other issue that I want to raise is the fact that the Government has capped domiciliary care at £100 per week. I think it's important to remember that in England there is no cap. That means that people in Wales at home are able to receive care at home however much they get and they will not have to pay more than £100. I would prefer them to be paying much less than that. Many people get it free. But it does seem to me that if we're moving towards a national care service, as we are, one of the ways of doing that is to reduce that cap. I think the fact that we've managed to keep the £100 cap during times of great severity is a very positive outcome. In fact, independent analysts have confirmed that Wales has the most generous social care charging regime in the UK, with the cap. People in care homes can keep £50,000 in capital so that people's assets can be protected, whereas in England, it's £23,250, and no cap in England for the domiciliary care charges.

As you set up this expert working group to try and advance this, I just wondered what consideration you gave to the community nursing teams, which, when they work well, are brilliant. Because often people do need some medical intervention as well as social care. It does seem to have stalled. One of the crucial aspects of it is that it's multidisciplinary and it's got the support of the scheduling system, which used to be called Malinko, to avoid it having to be done by senior staff. It's just a brilliant system, but it doesn't seem to have been rolled out in the way I would have liked to have seen. It would have saved a huge amount of money in terms of keeping people out of hospital.

Thank you very much for that intervention. I think that the community nursing service, as you say, is absolutely brilliant. I think that is something that should be developed and certainly is an essential part of a national care service.

Also, something that was mentioned earlier was the lack of progress in terms of the professionalisation of social care workers. Social Care Wales has registered every social care worker, which, again, has been a step forward. So, I think that there are lots of good things that are going on.

A lot of time has been spent talking about unpaid carers. I think this is an absolutely crucial part of the debate, because I'm sure more people are being cared for at home by unpaid carers than anybody else. In terms of these personalised breaks that are happening, I've met many of the people who have received them, and they have been very successful. And also the carers support fund, which Mabon mentioned.

I want to end with a big plug for the Young Carers Festival, which I was very pleased to introduce. I think it is an absolutely crucial thing. Three days away with their peers, being able to enjoy life, do some fun things, talk about what it's like being a carer. I think that's one of the things that I want to ask the Minister—if this can be permanently inbuilt.

But it's things like that, I think, that show that we do recognise, but I don't deny that we've a huge way to go. I think that we've made a start, but we've got a long way to go.

Thank you very much. I want to begin by speaking about unpaid carers. For far too many people, being a carer means having to balance another person's needs with work, family, and their own personal life. There are 145,000 people in Wales trying to strike that balance between work and unpaid care, with 121,000 of them in employment and 30,000 providing over 50 hours of care per week. The pressure that this causes is significant and can lead to mental health issues, sleepless nights, and the constant worry of trying to provide the right care. Sixty per cent of carers report that they feel under strain often or all of the time.

I count myself as a carer. I spend periods of time caring for my mother, which is a great privilege but is also a source of strain. Most carers are in a far more difficult position than me, and I sympathise a great deal with those carers who have to give up their work, who find it difficult to access support, who live in poverty and have to face a system where they cannot access the rights nor the respite opportunities that they deserve.

I am currently supporting a constituent in Arfon who has been caring full-time for her husband for over 13 years. Her husband suffers from vascular Parkinson's and has had a stroke, and the constituent feels under significant strain as a result of her ongoing caring responsibilities. She has been researching options for a period of respite for her husband in her home, but has had difficulty in finding a bed for her husband, even in the private sector or through council services. This lack of provision is a cause of great worry for her and is preventing her from receiving the vital break that she needs and that her husband needs. I would be grateful to hear what the Government's plans are to increase respite care of this kind. It's different to the short-break respite scheme, but it is something that does need to be developed further and certainly is very much appreciated when it is available, and it isn't available in far too many cases.

Turning now to those carers who are employed to support vulnerable individuals to live independently in our communities, there are around 88,000 people working in this sector, which is much less than the demand. There have been recent efforts made, such as the announcement of the real living wage for carers, and that has improved the situation, but the status of the profession continues to lag far behind that of those working in the health sector. The UK Government's decision to increase employer national insurance contributions has placed a significant additional burden on this sector, a sector that is already under a great deal of pressure. It's no surprise, therefore, that this has led to a significant increase in vacant posts, which now represent almost 6 per cent of the entire social care workforce.

Thank you to Plaid Cymru for bringing this debate forward. It's a very important debate, and it's important that we don't forget this issue. I want to focus, as others have done already, on unpaid carers. I agree entirely with what James, Sioned, Julie and Siân have already said on the issue. Many of us are familiar with caring for members of our families, and I'm sure that our thoughts this evening are with Eluned, the First Minister, who, in all of the hubbub of her responsibilities, has been so caring of her own mother in recent years.

Of course, as Siân said, people are in far worse positions than ourselves, but it's true to say that one of the most difficult things that I have ever done is caring for my own father. Seeing someone you love losing the ability to do everything is difficult, it is heartbreaking. I only cared for my father once a fortnight, to give my mother a break, but the scars remain. It has had a lasting impact on me. Just think, then, of the carer who is alone. They are there in our communities. Perhaps we don't hear from many of them. Perhaps we don't hear from enough of them, because they are simply too busy to be sending e-mails and to campaign, but they are there within our communities—people who have to care 24/7 for the people that they love. The physical impact and the mental impact that has on individuals is disastrous.

As James said, it saves millions and millions of pounds for our health service and our local authorities, but, again, they feel forgotten, they feel that nobody is supporting them, and that nobody cares about them. I was a strong supporter of the co-operation agreement between the Government and Plaid Cymru, partly because of the national care service issue. I could go and tell constituents like Beti George, 'We're doing something. Something is happening.' Unfortunately, as we have already heard, although years have passed, carers still haven't seen any progress in terms of support. There has been dragging of feet, and that, unfortunately, is characteristic of devolution in Wales to date. Whilst that is the case, whilst we continue to try and gather more and more evidence, people continue to suffer, and despair deepens.

These incredible people are dedicating their lives, day to day, to taking care of loved ones who need them. They deserve a policy landscape that is dedicated to carers, as dedicated to carers as carers are dedicated to their loved ones. We must work together to show carers how much we appreciate them, how grateful we are for what they are doing. We must ensure that whatever decisions are made are led by lived experiences—the lived experiences of carers, but also the lived experiences of those cared for across our nation.

The implementation of a pan-Wales director would allow for a co-ordinated approach to care policy and planning. And James is right, I am fed up of receiving e-mails about arguments between local authorities and health boards about who should help these people in their need. They just need help. They don't care who actually gives it. By creating a framework for a national approach to carers, we can take a big step forward, a big step forward showing Welsh carers how much they mean to us and how thankful we are for, often, their unnoticed work.

We must keep carers and their families at the heart of our approach. That's why I agree with a call for respite days to be legally enshrined in Welsh law, and a care needs assessment to be carried out within 28 days. I think it's a shame that the Conservative amendment deleted all, because I really think this is an opportunity for unity across the opposition parties. I appreciate what the Welsh Government is trying to do with their amendment, but try telling that to the carers. Try telling that to the people who feel abandoned. They need change now, not in another five years' time. Diolch yn fawr.

Well, if I do nothing else today, I am delighted to shine a spotlight on the way the transition from hospital to home is vital for recovery, and I want to tell you, perhaps, all, where I believe it's going wrong. Let me highlight two cases very quickly. Patient M, a 97-year-old, suffered a fall. She's in hospital and needs a handrail. That is all. Of course, that needs an assessment. So, we needed a visit to the home. There was a delay of two weeks and four days until the home visit approved the handrail—two weeks and four days. This patient was 97 years of age. Do we really need an assessment for a 97-year-old? I'm a young man—I need a handrail at times, and I believe that was totally unnecessary.

Let me go to patient L, who suffered a severe stroke and was hospitalised, was unable to speak, was spoon-fed, liquids only, and needed constant personal care. A medical history of heart failure, liver failure, Crohn's, and two previous very large strokes. Sent home with no assessment at all, no care package at all, because there was a delay. Patient L can only stand aided for moments. Incontinent. Four weeks later, patient L is back in hospital. Five weeks later, patient L was again released from hospital and sent home to her daughter, her single daughter, who has sacrificed for the last four years her personal musical career to care for mam. Patient L contracts shingles. Patient L falls out of bed and spends three more days in hospital—isolated and, by the way, with no liquid food for a stroke victim all day at the Grange. Patient L's family requested a hospital bed, and offered to pay, even, for a hospital bed, walking past hospital beds stacked in corridors. A brave paramedic demands action, and a bed was delivered within two days, and the patient is now home. But how many weeks did patient L spend unnecessarily—? At least five weeks, possibly more, when if a care package has been agreed then that hospitalisation would not have been necessary. And how much money, I again repeat, could have been saved?

I said during the by-election that I would stand up for ordinary men, women and children in the street. We've heard already from three Members, and I can guarantee many more Members have similar stories to this one. You'll forgive me, Dirprwy Lywydd, because patient L, who was a councillor in Caerphilly, who served her community really well, is indeed my sister, and I can assure you that patient L does receive loving care, of course. But there are a lot of issues that we need to resolve, and Plaid Cymru's Bill here today will ensure that this, perhaps, will get easier for patients across the whole of Wales. Social care is vital and we will all probably end up needing it. We probably all will. That is the reality of life, I'm afraid. Diolch yn fawr.

I call on the Minister for Children and Social Care, Dawn Bowden.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Can I thank Plaid Cymru for tabling this motion and giving me the opportunity to reiterate that we have an unwavering commitment to support and transform social care for the people of Wales, with a clear and ambitious goal, and that is to create a national care and support service for Wales? And I would like to place on record my thanks to my predecessor, Julie Morgan, for the work that she did on progressing this.

I've got lots to cover in response to this. There has been a lot of very good contributions and in the time available to me, I'm going to try and get through as much as I can. But can I start with acknowledging that, as part of the co-operation agreement, Plaid worked with us to establish an expert group to provide practical steps to take forward that shared priority of a national care and support service? So, I was a little surprised to hear criticism of Welsh Government for protracted progress, when Plaid Cymru agreed the recommendation of the expert group, including the three-stage approach, starting with our initial implementation plan, which was published in December 2023, and that plan reflects the expert group's advice that this will take 10 years. It is a 10-year phased approach.

But our vision remains: that we deliver sustainable, equitable and excellent quality care; that we support a valued and rewarded workforce; that we provide services in partnership with local communities to deliver what matters to our people. And since December 2023, we have made significant progress. In April 2024, just four months after the implementation plan was published, we established the national office for care and support to provide strong leadership, drive innovation and ensure the voices of those who rely on care are heard and acted upon. Through the chief social care officer, we’ve strengthened engagement with the sector, citizens and our strategic advisory group. Last September, we implemented the national framework for commissioning care and support, a statutory code of practice that transforms how services are commissioned, which has been welcomed by our partners and stakeholders. We’ve invested heavily in integrated local community care—£278 million annually through regional partnership boards to build capacity for joined-up front-line services, and an additional £30 million through the pathways of care transformation grant, recurring annually, to invest in transforming social care by building community capacity, secured with the support of Jane Dodds. Lindsay, you weren’t here at the time, but Plaid voted against that in the last budget, so please do spare us the plea to do more in this area when you weren’t prepared to support it when you had the chance.

Minister, will you take an intervention?

I really need to get through this, James, because I've got very little time.

For unpaid carers, we continue to provide an additional £6 million this year to support our national strategy. Our short-break scheme, which has been referenced and which is over and above the statutory provision, delivered over 50,000 breaks in three years, far exceeding targets and addressing a critical gap in respite support. And I'm very pleased to announce today that we have committed to continuing the short-break scheme and our carers support fund for another three years from 2026. And can I absolutely agree with Julie Morgan about the Wales Young Carers Festival, and I hope that we will be able to continue to support that as well.

On carers' needs assessments, we are driving national improvement work through the ministerial advisory group for unpaid carers, which is led by unpaid carers, and that work will be complete by March 2026. This is a priority area in our updated unpaid carers strategy, and that will be published early next year.

In closing, Llywydd, I acknowledge and I welcome Plaid Cymru's role in shaping the trajectory of our national care and support service, so I am disappointed that they now appear to be distancing themselves from that. The 10-year phased approach was jointly agreed between us and allows us to deliver change that is sustainable. Transformation takes time, but it is happening. Good practice is being scaled up and community capacity is being built with ongoing funding, so I hope we will now see Plaid engage constructively in the budget discussions to help us deliver further transformation in social care. There is much more to do, but I am proud to stand by the achievements and the improvements that we continue to deliver.

I call on Mabon ap Gwynfor to reply to the debate.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you to everyone who's participated in this debate this afternoon. It's been a very interesting debate, and a very important one, because far too often, we see this Senedd ignoring the needs of our carers, and they're a sector of society that aren't given adequate attention.

Now, I'm not going to go through everything that's been said, but I will try and pick out a few things per speaker; it'll be easier to do it in that way.

James, I think you are absolutely right. You mentioned a number of things in your contribution. You were the first to point out, I think, the national insurance raise that we've seen from the UK Government and the impact of that on providers in Wales. Absolutely, we should see this Government stand up and say, 'That's not right', and call for it to be scrapped. We would support that as well, because it has damaged the providers and led to a number of providers thinking about their future and whether or not they can carry on providing care here in Wales.

Sioned, you were entirely right. You referred to personal examples too, and painted that picture of the life of a carer, and you pointed out quite clearly that three quarters of carers in Wales aren't given the necessary assessments. Now, if that doesn't happen, we will see those people burn out and, ultimately, they won't be able to provide the care, and what happens to their loved ones then?

[Inaudible.]—if truth be told; 75 per cent of those questioned for the survey, and far fewer than that—only 6 per cent of all carers in Wales they believe actually get that necessary needs assessment.

The figures are even worse, therefore.

Even worse.

And if those people don't get the respite and the rest that they need, then those who they care for will ultimately have to go to hospital, which places an even greater burden on our health services too.

Julie, I welcome and appreciate the work that you've done; you've been a champion in this field and that is recognised. You made a number of points in your contribution, but I think the point that you made about the real living wage being £13.45, and that you are welcoming that, and, of course, that is good and welcomed, but as Siân said, that's not nearly enough to recognise the role that they play and to ensure that there is a career for people in caring. So, I think that needs to be looked at. Once again, we need this Government here to stand up and say it's not enough. We need the UK Government to also deliver in this field, but you're absolutely right about the Wales Young Carers Festival. That needs to be shouted out about, and I'm glad that it is on the record here.

Siân, once again, you made reference to your own personal experiences, and I am aware of what you have to do, and what so many other people have to do as carers in Wales. You referred specifically to the Llŷn adult care team and paid tribute to them, and there are teams like that across Wales. And what you said about them, and the fact that they do work that is so important, echoes what I said earlier, that they aren't given the necessary recognition from our Government here.

Rhys, I think you were entirely right, and I want to endorse what you said in recognising what our First Minister is going through at the moment with her caring responsibilities, which once again accords with the work of so many people across Wales, having to provide unpaid care and not getting the necessary recognition, and that so many carers aren't in that position—they're lonely and they have to do that alone. Where is the support for these people in order to support them in their hour of greatest need?

I think it was you who made the point clearly—and this is at the heart of the motion before us today—that there is that separation between the health boards and local authorities, and people aren't willing to take responsibility. And for the individual suffering, they don't care who takes responsibility, who pays for their service; they want someone to help them without this bickering. That's why we asked originally for the establishment of this care board on a national level, and we need to see urgency in that. As you said, there are people out there asking where the support is. We make promises, or this Government makes promises that look great on paper, but they aren't supported by delivery or funding, and—

Would you like to take an intervention?

Yes. I'm not sure how much time I have, but go for it.

Well, talking about promises being great on paper, you seem to be suggesting, quite rightly, that the living wage should be higher—I agree with that—but the point is how you are going to pay for it when you're calling on a UK Government that you want to leave. You want independence. It's going to cost £7,000 for every person who's living—. So, how are you going to pay for it? Who are you going to turn to when you've left the UK? Who are you going to turn to then?

Thanks. We pay taxes in Wales as well, incidentally, I'm not sure whether you and others noticed that. Our taxes go to the Treasury. I think the point you make is how people are going to pay for a lot of these things. How do we put things into practice? I was going to get on to this point, in any case. We just heard the Minister make an announcement today that the carers' support fund was going to continue—how has that been promised? It was because we forced the motion forward and because now you've had to find a way of delivering. It's political—[Interruption.] It's to do with what your ambitions and what your goals are as a Government. How do you fund it? You find a way.

I want to listen to the contribution from the Member and I can't hear. He's only standing there and I can't hear him because of all the noise in the Chamber. Please let him conclude his contribution. Mabon.

I think it's perfectly obvious that the announcement was dropped during this debate. So, that's great, that's to be welcomed. It's part of what we're calling for. Thank you very much for that. [Interruption.] No, I don't think you did pluck it out of the air; it's a matter of priorities and that's what funding these issues is about. It's a matter of priorities.

Now, the one other thing that I will point out—. I did mention and I did reference a number of good things that this Government has done, and we won't be afraid to point out what is good. When there's good practice, when things are working well, let's carry on with them. So, let's recognise what's good. But a lot of what the Minister mentioned had echoes to me of what I heard when I was walking the streets with Lindsay in Caerphilly, where people hear the Government say all of these good things, but the experience on the ground is completely different. What you've said is not the lived experience of people here in Wales. So, we need to make sure that what looks good on paper is delivered, and that's what we're proposing with this motion today, and I hope, therefore, that we will get the support of this Chamber in supporting our motion. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is objection. Therefore, I defer voting under this item until voting time.

That brings us to voting time, and unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I will move directly to voting time.

The first vote this evening is on item 7, the debate on a Member's legislative proposal. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Rhys ab Owen. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 27, 19 abstentions, seven against. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

We now move to votes under item 9, the Plaid Cymru debate. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan. If the motion is not agreed, we will vote on the amendments tabled to the motion. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 12, one abstention, 40 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.

If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Paul Davies. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 16, no abstentions, 37 against. Therefore, amendment 1 is not agreed.

We move on to amendment 2. I call for a vote now on amendment 2, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 26, no abstentions, 27 against. Therefore, amendment 2 is not agreed.

As the Senedd has not agreed the motion without amendment, nor has it agreed the amendments tabled to the motion, the motion is, therefore, not agreed.

There is no short debate this evening. Therefore, that brings today's proceedings to a close. Thank you.