Plenary

The next item will be the questions to the Counsel General and Minister for Delivery, and the first question this afternoon is from Janet Finch-Saunders.

Diolch, Janet. Work continues to draft the legislation necessary to fulfil our ambitions for a coherent, devolved tribunal system, which will include a new first-tier tribunal and an appeal tribunal for Wales. Our intention is to have a draft tribunals Bill ready for consideration by the next Welsh Government.

Thank you. Diolch. Now, a White Paper in 2023 found the tribunal system in Wales to be outdated, inflexible and lacking coherence. Eighty-eight per cent agreed with the proposed structure of the unified tribunal system. Benefits would include increased flexibility in the system, consistency of decision making, clearer processes and enhancements of the public profile of the tribunal system. Ninety-one per cent agreed that the jurisdictions of the Welsh Tribunals should be transferred to the first-tier tribunal for Wales. Yet no legislation has been suggested or passed.

Counsel General, you advised the Legal Wales conference in Bangor last month that your department will continue to work on the package of reforms and would produce a draft Bill that would be ready for the next Welsh Government to take forward. Could you clarify why, over two years on from the summary of consultation responses being published, a Bill has not yet come forward before this Senedd?

In April of this year, in my statement on the legislative programme, I confirmed then to the Senedd that the tribunals Bill would not be included in year 5 of the legislative programme. It was a matter of some regret to us that we were not able to do that, and it's not a reflection of a lack of commitment to our tribunals, but it is a reflection of the complexity of the Bill in question. So, we have not been able to produce a Bill in time to be introduced by this Senedd. Indeed, we have a very full programme in year 5 already. So, our intention is to have that draft Bill ready for consideration by the next Welsh Government after the elections in May 2026. You're making it very clear today that there is a consensus across the Chamber that this needs to be done. The draft Bill will enable that to be done, and I'm sure that any incoming Welsh Government will enact that in year 1 of its legislative programme.

Diolch, Rhys. The Welsh Government is in the process of implementing a programme to drive continuous improvement in the internal legislation development process.

Diolch, Cwnsler Cyffredinol. You'll be well aware that one of the main arguments to enlarge this Senedd was to have better scrutiny, and that would then improve the lives of the people of Wales. It's probably fair to say that, maybe, that argument hasn't cut through, cut across, really, to the general public yet. As you know, the Senedd historically passed a low number of pieces of legislation compared to other legislatures, such as Scotland and Northern Ireland. In their 2016-21 term, the Senedd passed 22 compared to 76 in Scotland and 46 in Northern Ireland. In the past, that may have been explained due to lack of capacity within this place, but that's not going to be the case after next year's election, with more representatives here than in Stormont, and three quarters of the number of Members of the Scottish Parliament. So, how much difference does the Counsel General believe that the new 36 Members will make to the effectiveness of the Welsh Government?

Diolch, Rhys. It's a very good question, and, obviously, the legislative priorities will, in the end, be for the post-election Government to confirm in due course. I think it's an interesting assumption that more legislation equals good, and less legislation equals bad. I don't necessarily hold to that. I think we should make laws that are required, and not laws for the sake of it in order to show some kind of league table position. But the increase in the size of the Senedd, and the potential increase in the number of Ministers, will have implications for Welsh Government's ways of working, including in the administration and delivery of legislation, and, of course, in response to increased scrutiny, which is what the main purpose of the increase of the Senedd was. So, we are hoping to have better scrutiny all the way through the process and, in that way, produce better laws, obviously.

We're in the process of implementing a series of actions to drive improvements in the legislation development process, including, but not limited to—so, this is just a list of some of the things we're doing—stronger early planning protocols, streamlined ways of working and increased specialism in the task of developing legislation. That should help us to ensure that we have the right resource, in the right place, at the right time.

I would characterise it like this: if you go end to end, an incoming Government will be raring to go, it will have a manifesto that it has put to the Welsh people, the Welsh people will have endorsed that manifesto, and they will want to translate that into a programme for government. But incoming Ministers will need help in translating that manifesto wording into legislation that makes sense. They will need help to turn their lightbulb moment into things that can be expressed in a legislative fashion. And, to be honest, they will need help in harnessing some of their enthusiasm in those first days, so that you have specific Bills for specific purposes. In the past, the Senedd has passed a small number of Bills, but they tend to be very big Bills. A previous First Minister characterised it to me in this way, and I hope he doesn't mind my quoting him, 'If the bus only goes past occasionally, then everybody crams on, whereas if you think there's another bus coming in 10 minutes, then you may wait and get on the next bus. It might be more comfortable'. Legislation is the same. If you have a number of small-purpose Bills going through, then people will concentrate on their purpose-built Bills. If there is only one now and again, then everybody tries to get everything that even relates vaguely to the topic in question into the Bill. And I think that will be the lesson for the new Government.

Questions from the party spokespeople now. The Welsh Conservative spokesperson, Tom Giffard.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. Good afternoon, Counsel General. Last month, the Cabinet Secretary for Education made an oral statement here in the Senedd regarding additional learning needs, and reflected on the Additional Learning Needs and Education Tribunal (Wales) Bill of 2018, passed by the Welsh Government. She admitted there was, quote,

'inconsistency in how the definitions of ALN and additional learning provision are applied across Wales.'

Now, in practice, that means there has been huge costs as a result of that Bill to schools and local authorities. It means that local authorities understand the Bill differently and make different provisions in different places, and children, fundamentally, are not getting the support they need. In plain English, it was a poorly drafted Bill. So, what lessons have been learned within the Welsh Government about this Bill, about how it was drafted, and what measures have you put in place to make sure that that doesn't happen again?

So, in terms of the legislation, it's drawing on the conversation I've just been having with Rhys ab Owen, of course. The legislation is presented in the first place by the Welsh Government, but it goes through the scrutiny processes, and, ultimately, is accepted by the Senedd as the law as it should be enacted. Then a whole series of things need to happen to implement that law, including the issuance of guidance, work with stakeholders, and so on. It is clear from a large number of Bills, and that's probably one of them, that working very hard during the scrutiny process on some of the implementation issues of Bills—another one would be the Renting Homes (Wales) Act 2016, for example; I can think of a few others—where lessons learned reports need to be looked at, both, I would suggest, by the Senedd, in its scrutiny processes, and, indeed, by the Government, in the way that it produces the legislation in the first place. Then, of course, there's a post-implementation phase to look at as well.

I think one of the things you just mentioned there was inconsistent practice across local authorities. So, working with local authorities to ensure that guidance that goes out is understood by them in the same way, and that is clear and precise in its language, is very important as well. I wouldn't be able to quote you the ALN guidance, I'm afraid, but I'm not sure whether it falls in that category. But I have, during my long career, seen guidance that is capable of more than one interpretation, and so making sure that we get the language right is a very important lesson to be learned.

Thank you for that answer. It's clear, ultimately—albeit, in the Minister's statement, she did mention reissuing guidance—we either need a new Bill or an amendment to the existing Bill in the future to sort this out. But the Cabinet Secretary essentially admitted that that couldn't be done in this Senedd term because of the lack of legislative capacity within the Welsh Government. That was a point that was just rehearsed by Rhys ab Owen. So, we're in a situation where the Welsh Government admits that there is a problem but can't do anything about it, and families and children who need the support, for this Bill to be fixed, are left in limbo in the interim. As the Counsel General, you must see that as a significant issue, so why aren't you freeing up internal capacity within the Welsh Government to solve this problem as soon as practically possible?

The issue of legislation for the remainder of the Senedd term has nothing to do with Welsh Government capacity. We are right down to the wire. I think we've only got 100 or so days left. When we come back after Christmas, all Members of the Senedd will see that they are doing so much legislation, including secondary legislation, that I fear that we will all need endurance medication to get through some of it. There simply isn't the Senedd time left to do big reforms of that sort.

What the Welsh Government is doing is working on a programme of Bills and reforms for year one of the new Government term, which should prove to be uncontroversial, politically non-contentious, and so on, and so any incoming Government has a flying start, if you like, for some of the things, and, frankly, new Ministers will have something to cut their teeth on so that they get used to that. I'm not, I'm afraid, familiar with exactly where we are in the ALN Bill—it's, obviously, not my specific portfolio—but it is one of the things that we're looking at: what tweaks to legislation might be required. I also think the Senedd itself—. Well, we know the Senedd itself—I took part in the seventh Senedd committee, and have had numerous conversations with the Llywydd about it—will be looking at scrutiny provisions as well for legislation, because, with more Members, we have a better chance to get that legislation right in the first place.

Thank you. I'm not sure I completely accept, though, that the Welsh Government can't do anything about this in the period of time left,. Notwithstanding the point you made, obviously, that this is not your portfolio, the bringing forward of Bills is, and some of the Bills that are being brought forward in what is left of this Senedd term are probably not the things that would be the people's priorities—a Bill, for example, to impose more regulations on the tourism sector, banning greyhound racing, and this ridiculous, unworkable idea to police what politicians can and can't say. Now, I don't understand why these are seen as more important than sorting out our children's education. Perhaps you can explain that to me.

They're not seen as more important. Tom, one of the things I fear that you have not yet learnt is that life is not binary. It is not a straight choice between that and what we're doing, of course. What it is about is making sure that we've done the right analysis on the lessons learnt, we've supported children with ALN at the moment in the system, and, for the future, that we get that system right. The idea that we can put very swift legislation in and that would somehow solve the problem of inconsistent application of guidance across Wales, for example, clearly just wouldn't work. It's not binary, I'm afraid, and I'm not sure that the Welsh Conservatives are in a particularly great place to tell me what the people of Wales think, given the level of representation they currently have.

The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Adam Price.

Diolch, Llywydd. Your speech at the Legal Wales conference, which has already been referred to, was reported in the Law Society Gazette in the following terms, and I'm quoting:

'Any prospect of a separate Welsh legal jurisdiction has been kicked firmly into touch, with the country’s top lawyer confirming it is not an option for the foreseeable future.'

Counsel General, could you take the opportunity now to confirm that the Welsh Government does remain unequivocally in favour of establishing a separate Welsh legal jurisdiction? Can you confirm, to dispel any confusion, really, when you did say in your speech that no Welsh Government is going to be advocating for blocking Welsh lawyers from operating in England, there's nothing in the creation of a separate legal jurisdiction that would in any way prevent Welsh lawyers from continuing to practise in England or elsewhere in these islands?

Yes. Thank you, Adam, for the chance to put it right. It's another good example of 'you shouldn't believe what you read in the headlines.' I said no such thing. I am in the process of writing back to Rhun—who I believe raised this in FMQs on a day when I wasn't able to be present, unfortunately—just to put the record straight, and it will have attached to it a full copy of the speech. I made exactly the point you've just made, in fact. A separate Welsh legal jurisdiction is inevitably developing. The more laws we make in this place, the more separate they become from the England jurisdiction. Regardless of whether you view it or not as a separate legal jurisdiction, a separate body of law is growing up in Wales, and lawyers need to be cognisant of that body of law. In practising in Wales, they need to be able to apply the right law in Wales to the right topic. I've had quite a lot of discussion with the Lady Chief Justice of England and Wales on this—she was at the Bangor conference as well—and with a number of other members of the judiciary as well, in terms of how you ensure that the developing body of Welsh law is properly adjudicated.

But, what I was doing was making clear to the Welsh profession, of which I'm very proud—and the current president of the Law Society of England and Wales is Welsh, and he made a very good contribution to the Bangor conference—that this Welsh Government—. And I took the liberty, I'm afraid, of foreseeing other Welsh Labour Governments—other Welsh Governments—. Forgive me, I'll say that again, because I had a slip of the tongue there. [Laughter.] Other Welsh Governments, I felt sure, would not want to limit Welsh lawyers to Wales in the way that they were showing a fear that that might happen. I thought that that would be a very short-sighted thing to do. Obviously, a large number of lawyers practise on both sides of the border, and we wish to encourage that.

But, as you know, one of my missions in this particular role is accessibility to Welsh law. I also took the liberty of saying in that speech, and I've said it here in the Chamber a number of times, that I want to arrive at a point where, if somebody is appearing in a court in Wales in a commercial matter, for example, your reaction to them isn't to say, 'Good luck'. I had a friend of mine appearing only two weeks ago in a Cardiff court, and I said, 'Good luck'. It is quite hard to find out what's in force in Wales. Lots of the legal books still say, '*not in force in Wales', and then you follow the asterisk down to the bottom of the page where it tells you nothing more, which is of no use to you at all.

The Lady Chief Justice of England and Wales did make a very engaging speech, including reference to the etymology of the word 'cwtsh', which is French, apparently—who knew? But she also did express her significant disappointment that the tribunals Bill was not going to be brought forward in this Senedd term. You have referred to the work on the draft Bill. Is it possible, Counsel General, to publish at least the draft Bill, as you complete it, in this term, so that we, on a cross-party basis, can move forward hopefully as fast as possible in making progress on this important constitutional reform?

It's absolutely our intention to publish the draft Bill. I'm in discussion with the president of Welsh Tribunals about it. I've said that we will do everything we can to make sure that that Bill is published, and we are continuing to do just that.

Finally, Counsel General, last week the Deputy First Minister said that the Welsh Government had secured a meeting with the UK Government to explore reform of the Barnett formula. Are you able to share with the Senedd when this meeting will take place, which UK Ministers will likely attend, and what specific proposals the Welsh Government will put on the table? You have said in previous exchanges that Barnett, as it is a non-statutory Treasury convention, is insulated, effectively, from judicial oversight. Is the Welsh Government's position therefore that any future reform, any territorial funding arrangements, should be placed on a statutory footing so that any departure from agreed principles is subject to legal accountability and not left solely to UK Ministers' political discretion? I'm mindful particularly of the prospect of political change in Westminster in the future. Unless we put it on a statutory basis, we are vulnerable to the vagaries of the political weather at Westminster.

The simple answer to the first bit of your question is that the meeting is going to be in February and in Belfast. I'm informed by my colleague the Minister for finance that that is so. In terms of the rest of your question, I think over recent years and successive Governments, we've seen a real need to start thinking about all of these conventions that we have relied on for hundreds of years being put into a written constitution or in written form, because, frankly, particularly the Government of Boris Johnson just rode roughshod through them. We hadn't seen that before, but now that we have seen it, it's clear that that can happen. I think there is a growing body of opinion that says that many of these conventions need to be solidified, shall we say, into things that cannot be just cast aside with political expediency. I think there is a growing need to do that. Whether or not you persuade any incumbent UK Government to put its funding formula into law I have a personal view on, which I suspect is a bit more dismal. But I think there is a growing body of opinion across the political spectrum that writing the conventions down and making them enforceable is a definite route forward for the British constitution more generally.

Question 3, Janet Finch-Saunders.

Diolch, Llywydd. My question—. Maybe we should have paired it, had we known. It has all been covered. I can ask it if you want me to, but it just repeats literally word for word what has been said.

This is the first time, I think, I've been asked to voluntarily withdraw a question because it's been covered already in a session. We'll take that as an offer we cannot refuse, Janet Finch-Saunders.

We'll move on to question 4. Delyth Jewell.

That was earlier than expected, Llywydd. Diolch.

Thank you, Delyth. Whilst rail infrastructure is not yet devolved to Wales, we will continue to make the case for a fair share of funding for rail infrastructure projects. We have a proud record of reopening closed lines, including the Ebbw Vale line and returning passenger services on the Vale of Glamorgan line.

It is frustrating sometimes how dependent we are on the whims of Westminster to get things done in this kind of area. The shadow of Beeching looms large over our Valleys. There are so many train stations and lines that were closed in the 1960s through those disastrous short-thinking cuts. Lindsay Whittle, Peredur Owen-Griffiths and I have written to the UK rail Minister, Lord Hendy, calling for a feasibility study to reopen the railway line that connects Nelson to the Rhymney valley line. That would not only benefit Nelson. Plans exist for a link connecting the Rhymney valley line with the Taff line. That would connect different Valleys. Reopening the line connecting Nelson to Abercynon would surely be an obvious way of doing that. The old line and track still exist in Nelson. Lots of people living locally would love to see that line reopen. Is that a project that the Welsh Government would want to see progress and are there any legal barriers in the way of that progressing?

Thanks, Delyth. As I said, we're very keen to reopen closed lines where that makes sense. The ones you mentioned in your area are by no means the only ones. I could give you a list in my own as well. We do support in principle the commissioning of feasibility studies on the options for reopening closed lines, but they have to be based on a set of criteria, as you'd expect—defined need, enough population to support the use of any future service. Very importantly as well, they need to take into account the new bus Bill and the services likely to be provided, so we don't have duplication, we have join-up and so on. As you know, rail infrastructure outside the core Valleys lines is a reserved matter, but we do work closely with them on rail infrastructure improvements.

With my delivery hat on, rather than my Counsel General hat on, I've been working with Ken Skates, the Cabinet Secretary, on a whole series of asks of the UK Government around making sure that the settlement for Wales makes sense, and that the Network Rail grouping makes sense and that we have a fairer share of that rail investment. But actually, it's not just about the money; it is about having a proper understanding at Network Rail level of what the needs of the infrastructure are to run the services we want to run. So, it's not just closed lines, it's about upgrading lines, making sure that they will run the trains at the right speed, all that kind of stuff as well. But rest assured it is absolutely part of the plan to look at reopening lines where we can demonstrate the feasibility.

Thank you, Rhys. On 16 October, the Minister for Children and Social Care wrote to the Chair of the Children, Young People and Education Committee, copying in the Chair of the legislation and justice committee, and provided an update on the working group and the planned next steps. That's published online.

I wasn't aware of that, so I'm very pleased to hear you say that, Counsel General. But I make no apologies for raising FDAC again with you. I think this is at least the third time I've raised it with you. In your response last time, you mentioned a workshop in June. I'd be very pleased to learn more about the outcomes of that meeting. The two-year pilot came to an end two years ago. We then had the two-year Cardiff University evaluation, which came to an end in January 2024, resulting in five very clear recommendations. To me, the benefits of FDAC are clear and obvious: a huge decrease in alcohol and substance misuse, an 18 per cent increase in children remaining living with at least one parent, a 23 per cent reduction in children living in foster care, and no expensive and traumatic final childcare proceedings. Counsel General, I'm not sure what further evidence is needed. I'm not sure why we don't have an FDAC already here in Cardiff and across Wales. Could you briefly tell me, before I go online, what are the next steps you're taking with regard to this?

Yes, Rhys, with the greatest of pleasure. The working group met on five occasions and heard from a number of organisations, such as the Centre for Justice Innovation and the Nuffield Family Justice Observatory. After their meetings and some expert feedback, the group developed a discussion paper, which recognised the FDAC model as effective and beneficial for children and families, for all the reasons you've just outlined, with wide support for embedding a problem-solving approach in public law proceedings, which we absolutely endorse.

They did, though, identify a number of challenges to national roll-out of the FDAC in Wales. They included inconsistent service availability across Wales, some geographic barriers, particularly in rural areas, and some financial constraints at multiple levels, which I know you're familiar with. The working group emphasised that the FDAC should not be progressed in isolation, but put within the wider system. That included the multi-agency practice framework, the pathfinder approach in private law, and the broad landscape of early intervention, prevention, edge-of-care services and post-court prevention services.

The family justice network considered the paper at their 22 September meeting, and proposed two task and finish groups should be established under the oversight of the working group, with the aim of reporting in the first year of the next Senedd term. Those are to map and assess existing edge-of-care service provision and opportunities for development, and to consider system and judicial design issues needed to support a public law problem-solving approach in Wales.

Just to add one last bit to that, I also discussed it with the Lady Chief Justice and with Ministry of Justice colleagues, because, frankly, if we can't solve the financial issues, then we won't be able to solve it at all. You'll be aware that, whilst the court is a very effective court, I think, and solves a number of problems from the judicial point of view, it's entirely paid for out of devolved service budgets. So, we do need to sort that out as well.

I thank the Counsel General.

Item 3 is the business statement and announcement. I call on the Trefnydd—Jane Hutt.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. There are no changes to this week's business. Business for the next three weeks is shown on the business statement, which is available to Members electronically.

Trefnydd, I would like to request a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care regarding trauma and orthopaedic waiting times across Wales. The average waiting time for a first out-patient appointment in the Hywel Dda University Health Board area is 18 weeks, and the average waiting time for someone to actually start treatment is 28 weeks, with 10 per cent of people waiting a staggering 79 weeks or more to start treatment following their referral being received by the hospital. Trefnydd, these figures are absolutely unacceptable, because people are living in pain and discomfort while they wait for much-needed treatment.

Improving access to healthcare and reducing waiting times should be a priority for this Government, and it's important that we hear from the Welsh Government what is being done to support health boards to bring down these waiting times. It has been almost six months since the last oral statement on waiting times, so I would be grateful if we could have an update from the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care on how the Welsh Government is helping to reduce waiting times and ensure that patients waiting for orthopaedic treatment are able to receive it as quickly as possible.

Thank you for that question. Of course, bringing down waiting times is an absolute priority for this Welsh Government, and indeed for the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care. Indeed, it is a priority of the new director of the NHS in Wales and all those who advise us, and indeed all of those who are delivering that reduction in waiting times. Again, thank you for raising this. It is important that we see the progress that is being made in terms of bringing down those waiting lists and waiting times.

Trefnydd, I would like to request a statement, please, from the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning on the Welsh Government's response to the threat of job losses at Aston Martin in St Athan in my region. I understand that more than 100 jobs are at risk and they are under consultation because of the impact of US tariffs and weak demand from China, with the majority, of course, being fixed-term and permanent production jobs.

We know that manufacturing is so important in terms of the Welsh economy, but the threat of such large-scale redundancies demonstrates the vulnerability of the sector when we are dependent on multinational companies subject to macroeconomic influences. Therefore, I would like to know how the Welsh Government is supporting and working with the company, how you plan to respond should there be full-scale redundancies, and how these fit with the broader strategy to support the manufacturing sector, including SMEs.

Thank you very much. Diolch yn fawr, Heledd Fychan, for raising that issue and perhaps I could just declare an interest because it is also in my constituency, and I have met with the company, and I visited the plant recently. It's deeply concerning news for the employees at the Aston Martin St Athan plant, their families and the local community. We are in direct contact with Aston Martin, and the Cabinet Secretary for economy, as well as the First Minister, have been briefed about the latest situation and are engaging. We have to await the outcome of the consultation, but we are prepared to work with the company and partner agencies to offer support and help workers where needed. It is very concerning, of course, that we hear of the impact of the US tariffs imposed by Donald Trump, and also recognise, as has been reported, weak demand from China. But can we just remember how important it is? I think the regional convener for Unite the Union was saying yesterday how important Aston Martin has been. It started production in south Wales in 2019, it employs up to 700 people at its St Athan manufacturing plant. I recognise what Unite said—they described the situation as 'devastating', and they're beginning a consultation with the company to mitigate redundancies. But Welsh Government, indeed, of course, also engaging with UK Government as well is vital.

I'd like to ask for two statements today. The first one is following the announcement by Cardiff University that 1,100 of its professional staff will be told that the future of their jobs are uncertain. This, of course, follows the academic reorganisation last year. I welcome the university's commitment that there will be no compulsory redundancies, but I do know that staff have spoken out, worried that alternative posts will come with lower wages, different hours and maybe worse terms and conditions.

And then, secondly, could the Trefnydd give us an update on the publication of the registered political parties' diversity and inclusion strategies? The Elections and Elected Bodies (Wales) Act 2024 guidance encouraged political parties to publish these strategies to ensure that the Senedd reflects a modern and diverse Wales, and I believe that the guidance encourages parties to publish at least six months before the election in May. Diolch.

Diolch, Julie Morgan. Thank you for your very important questions.

And also for your long-standing commitment and support for Cardiff University and its staff, and engaging with the difficult announcements and decisions that have been made by Cardiff University, appreciating the tough decisions universities and colleges are having to make during these challenging times. But as you say, we understand that Cardiff University is not proposing any compulsory redundancies as part of its review of professional services staff, and that there will be a role for everyone in the new structures. Of course, it's not for Ministers to direct them on academic or staffing matters, but it's very clear that we expect Cardiff University to work closely with their staff and students' unions in social partnership, and that the mental health and well-being of staff and learners is prioritised. The Minister for Further and Higher Education will be making a statement in the Senedd on 25 November on the future of the tertiary education sector, and the steps that we, as a Government, will be taking to work towards a sustainable future.

I'm pleased also to have your second question, which relates to the diversity and inclusion guidance. I was able to attend the Senedd political panel, organised, as you say, by the Electoral Commission, last Friday, and just to say it was good to see at that meeting—. It's a regular panel that meets, particularly looking at Senedd reform and the impact of it. The Conservatives, Welsh Labour and Plaid Cymru were all represented at that meeting. But I did write to all registered political parties on 22 October, because we are at that key milestone in terms of the strong recommendation, which was Welsh Government guidance, that political parties should publish their diversity and inclusion strategies for Welsh elections at least six months before the Senedd election in 2026, which—. We've passed the six months—six months away. That was a week or so ago.

So, I am urging political parties, as I did at the panel, to publish their guidance and share it openly and transparently so that we can see the guidance. And there's always learning from each other, but the most important thing is how we're approaching the elections, as parties, to ensure that we can have a diverse and modern Parliament—Senedd—which of course is what we've been seeking as part of Senedd reform. What's important is the fact that Wales is leading the way in the United Kingdom in publishing this guidance under that Act. We set out a clear practical framework for political parties to strengthen diversity and inclusion now, ahead of future legal requirements under section 106 of the Equality Act 2010. And as I said, by working together, we can ensure Wales continues to be a model for inclusive democracy. Also it gives voters, when they see our strategies, the chance to look at how candidates are selected, how they can be supported, how we can drive that positive change needed to create a Senedd that truly reflects and represents the people of Wales.

I'd like to raise a statement, please, from the Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership on the issue of bias in the BBC, which led to the resignation of the director general of the BBC, Tim Davie, and the chief executive officer of BBC News, Deborah Turness.

Of course, broadcasting is not devolved, but as we have a Senedd election coming up in May, it's imperative that our public service broadcaster in Wales is politically impartial and balanced, and that we can all have confidence that BBC Wales gives balanced coverage to all political parties. This recent scandal has hurt that confidence in the BBC, because we have not seen a few one-off incidents, we have seen deliberate editorial decisions that misinterpret comments or are straightforwardly biased, breaking down their own editorial guidelines. So, I think it's right that only those at the top did step down.

The report by Michael Prescott uncovered a problem of institutional left-wing bias in the BBC and he felt forced to leak the dossier since it was ignored by the BBC's board. So, it's essential that trust and accountability are restored in the BBC, and that if similar problems exist at BBC Wales, they are identified. So, can we have a statement from the Welsh Government outlining whether the Minister for culture and the Secretary of State for Wales will meet with BBC Wales to learn what they are doing to investigate and identify institutional bias in their organisation and what they are doing to restore trust and accountability in the BBC to demonstrate that they deserve licence fee payers' money?

Thank you for that question. Clearly, as you say, broadcasting isn't devolved and, indeed, we've all seen and witnessed the fact that over the last few days the director general and the head of news have stepped down. The trust and accountability of the BBC is absolutely crucial. We depend on that, and as licence holders as well. But we enjoy a very robust and strong relationship with our broadcasters here in Wales, and of course that is something that is very much important to us in terms of our democracy and our engagement as a Senedd. So, I think this is something that of course we will surely hear more about. I haven't spoken to the Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership, but it's important, of course, that we recognise how the people expect that trust and accountability in our BBC, which of course is so important to us, when we so much value the role of broadcasters here in Wales.

Could I ask for a statement from the Government in relation to what conversations they've had with First Cymru buses when it comes to the dispute that they are currently experiencing with their bus drivers. Now, bus drivers have been on strike for a number of months. Their demands are very simple and fair, but First Cymru keeps knocking them back. So, we'd be grateful if the Trefnydd could get one of her colleagues to give a statement as to what conversations Welsh Government have had with First Cymru, especially given that Welsh Government is subsidising First Cymru's profits.

Secondly, could I ask for a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for climate change in relation to support for flood victims? We've seen the recent devastating floods in Carmarthenshire, and residents have rightly been compensated in those situations, but in Bridgend we have Caer Castell, where residents have had three floods over the last decade and have still yet to receive support, with some of them even considering bankruptcy as their only next step. So, a statement on that would be much welcomed by those residents.

Thank you very much, Luke Fletcher, for both of those important questions for the people who are affected by those situations and events. Firstly, on First Cymru buses and the dispute, I'm not aware of our engagement, but we hope it will be resolved in the spirit, of course, of social partnership, and our Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Act 2023 is so important to us in terms of ways in which we subsidise and fund and support our services, public and private.

You also raise a key point in terms of the impact of flooding and of flood victims. Of course, we've had, particularly over the last few days, a really concerning impact of flooding on communities. Perhaps also, when there's a flooding event, you tend to focus on that particular area, and yet there are other areas all across Wales that have been affected. It is something where just in terms of support, response, compensation, where appropriate, it's clear that we stand by with our partners. I think what's important as well is that we are funding risk management authorities. It's something where, of course, we've invested more than £370 million in flood and coastal erosion risk management since 2021—the most ever that's been invested over a single Senedd term, because, clearly, prevention is crucial—and we're making £77 million available to risk management authorities in Wales, and that of course should include Bridgend in terms of allocations. It is going to be important that we take stock of the impacts in terms of benefiting properties and households. So, thank you for that question.

Could I join calls for the statement on Aston Martin to be brought forward as a matter of urgency, business manager? It is really important that the Government address the pressing problems at the St Athan site. I am amazed that no statement has come out of the economy department. The asks from Aston Martin seem to be pretty clear to me. One of them is about making sure they get their fair share of the £100,000 quota that is placed on the 10 per cent rate into America for cars, and there's a genuine concern that, given Aston Martin is a small producer of cars, as against the big multiples that put many units into the American market, they will struggle to secure a fair share of that quota, and in which case their cars will carry a 27.5 per cent tariff in the American market. Surely the Welsh Government have information about the economic situation in Asia, and in particular in the Chinese market, that they could put in a statement, given that you've got your offices out there that you keep talking about. So, why have the Welsh Government been so quiet over this matter? I urge with urgency that the economy Minister bring a statement forward and start speaking up for the plant in St Athan before it is too late.

We have been speaking up for the plant in St Athan, and again I declare an interest here as the constituency Member for the Vale of Glamorgan. But it is important that this is aired and shared today, this afternoon, in business questions, and as I've said, and I've responded to Heledd Fychan in terms of her questions, not only is the Welsh Government directly in contact with Aston Martin, but also the Secretary of State for Wales, because this is also for the Department for Business and Trade for the UK Government, particularly in relation to that really important point that you make, Andrew R.T. Davies, about ensuring that Aston Martin is not disadvantaged by being a small-volume manufacturer, which, of course, is very bespoke in terms of Aston Martin and the relations it has, of course, in terms of trade and business with the market, and the market, of course, now in the US—80 per cent, I think, of the market for their cars is with the US. So, again, it's important that this has been aired today and I know that the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning is fully involved, with her officials and with UK Government officials as well. I will be very pleased to update Members, as will the Cabinet Secretary, on those conversations and impacts.

And finally, Samuel Kurtz.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Trefnydd, can I firstly raise my disappointment with regard to animal health policy not being announced on the floor of the Chamber? My colleague, Paul Davies raised this with regard to bluetongue last week, and this morning, we had, again, a policy announcement via press release around the mandatory housing order that comes into place on Thursday—no opportunity for us to challenge the Deputy First Minister on that housing order on the floor of the Senedd. I think that is a disappointment. While we welcome the decision, it is a disappointment that this Senedd isn't afforded the opportunity to discuss that first.

Secondly, Castlemartin firing range in my constituency is a hugely important strategic asset in the Ministry of Defence's defence infrastructure portfolio. Indeed, it's where Challenger 2 tanks are able to train, it's one of only two places helping Challenger 2 tank drivers train, and, indeed, we welcomed Ukrainians to Castlemartin to help them be trained on using the equipment as well. However, reports in the Sunday papers showed that there could be a potential change of use of Castlemartin, for it to house migrants. Now, this would be a loss of a hugely important strategic asset and I just wonder whether this Welsh Government has had any discussion with either the MOD or with the Home Office regarding plans around Castlemartin firing range.

Thank you very much for those points you make. As regards the issue around that housing order, I know that a written statement is being issued and, of course, last week, I did respond fully in relation to the timelines in terms of the bluetongue control policy, and the importance of engaging with those affected by bluetongue and then being able to make sure that people are aware of the ways in which this Government's bluetongue control policy has successfully delayed disease incursion until the time of year when temperatures are lower and the risk of further vector transmission is decreased. But yes, of course, it is important that you ask these questions and air these points, as you will do, I know, with the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change, through committee and, indeed, oral Senedd questions.

I have had no evidence in terms of Castlemartin. It's not devolved, but I haven't had any contact or indication about Castlemartin.

I thank the Trefnydd.

Item 4 today is a statement by the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs—COP30 and Wales Climate Week. I call on the Deputy First Minister to make the statement—Huw Irranca-Davies.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. It has now been a decade since nearly 200 nations united behind the landmark Paris agreement, a shared global promise to limit warming and cut emissions. In those 10 years, Wales has played its part with purpose and determination.

We have expanded renewable energy, improved the energy efficiency of our homes, boosted recycling rates, restored our precious peatlands, and worked to keep fossil fuels in the ground. These actions have driven down emissions, put money in people's pockets, protected our green spaces, promoted economic growth and shown that Wales can lead by example. I am proud of the progress that we've made together. But we also recognise that many of the biggest drivers of climate change are global, and no one nation can solve them alone. That is why Wales continues to reach outward, to learn, to share, and to lead.

We have strengthened Wales's voice and influence on the world stage. We are a founding member of the Under2 Coalition and leader in the Regions4 network. Through partnerships like these, we have gained access to global best practice, shaped better policies here at home, and helped forge the international agreements that protect our communities.

Just last week, Wales was represented in the preparation for COP30, sharing our lessons, bringing home the solutions of others, and providing the stimulus and pressure to drive up global action. This collaboration proves that we can lead where others hesitate, and that Wales can make a global impact. It reflects the very heart of our well-being of future generations Act—our duty to act as a globally responsible nation.

We must keep making the case for ambitious, science-led climate action, informed by expertise and driven by the real-world impacts that we are witnessing today. The effects of climate change are being felt across every part of our country. This year alone, Wales has seen the hottest spring and summer on record, and the driest conditions in almost 50 years. These are not distant warnings. They are the reality of a changing climate, right here, right now, on our very doorstep.

The rewards of getting this right are really worth fighting for. As many look to COP30 in Brazil, at home last week, we marked the beginning of our own important national conversations on climate change through the Wales Climate Week conference. These conversations will continue into December and January and February, through a programme of community events right across Wales. To focus these conversations, on 21 October, we published a discussion paper posing a series of questions linked to our next carbon budget plan, 2026 to 2030. The paper draws on the latest independent advice from the Climate Change Committee, the Wales Net Zero 2035 Challenge Group and other expert sources. It explains the current policy landscape across key sectors in Wales where we have the devolved powers to lead—so, from agriculture and land use to housing and transport. It explores different options and invites thoughts from the people of Wales on the best path forward, given the growing importance of these sectors in the shift to a cheaper, greener, more secure future.

Now, of course, we are not working from a standing start. Far from it. We are already making good progress. Let me give you some examples. In housing, we are investing in retrofitting homes, supporting social landlords and helping households cut their energy bills. Our new standards mean that homes are warmer, healthier and cheaper to run. In transport, we are expanding electric vehicle charging, improving public transport and making it easier to walk and to cycle. In agriculture and land use, we are supporting farmers to adopt sustainable practices, restore peatlands and to plant new woodlands, protecting our environment and rural economy.

Climate ambition and social justice can go hand in hand. Let us continue to lead with courage, guided by science and united by purpose, because the future we build today will define the Wales we leave for generations to come. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer.

As you know, of course, carbon budget 4 depends on the successful outcome of carbon budget 3, Deputy Prime Minister. So, that is 58 per cent by 2030. However, you and I both know that there are a range of uncertainties that could affect Wales's pathway to net zero. Actions have been outlined by the UK Climate Change Committee, such as putting more emphasis here on supporting households to install low-carbon heating. We also know that Wales needs to rapidly transition to low-carbon electrified heat. In fact, support is available for some residents through Nest and ECO4. So, I have a couple of questions for you. Will you explain why residents are being blocked from accessing support from Nest due to a decision not to allow solar panels on flat roofs? That's caused me and some of my constituents some concerns. Will you also explain why residents in terraced housing are being blocked from accessing ECO4 funding for air-source heat pumps due to this Welsh Government's delay to changing permitted development rights? Terraced housing is a very common feature in Wales, with a report from the Royal Society of Architects in Wales estimating it made up around 40 per cent of homes at the time. Welsh Government's failure to copy the changes to permitted development rights in England is meaning that as many as 40 per cent of premises in Wales are now being blocked from having those important air-source heat pumps.

The number of public EV charging points per capita in Wales is similar to the UK average, but definitely needs to continue to increase in line with EV uptake. With prices for new and second-hand EVs falling, there is an opportunity for rapid take-up providing the right infrastructure is in place and people are provided with accessible, accurate information on those benefits. Welsh Government and Transport for Wales were setting a target of delivering the provision of rapid charging every 20 miles on the strategic trunk road network of Wales by 2025. Again, Cabinet Secretary and Deputy First Minister, you and I know that target has not been met.

The UK Climate Change Committee has highlighted their belief that incentives and markets should be provided for our farmers and land managers to diversify their incomes for actions including woodland creation, peatland restoration and renewable energy. In essence, they are pushing for a reduction in food production. The madness of that is astounding, because such policy results in an increased reliance on food from abroad, thereby stepping up and making it more difficult for us to achieve our carbon budget.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Janet. There were lots of points within that. First of all, in terms of the carbon budget, all of these carbon budgets are challenging. We are likely to bring in carbon budget 2 on target, as we did with carbon budget 1. Carbon budgets 3 and 4 will be more stretching, and particularly in the areas of agriculture and transportation, and homes and businesses de-electrification, across to green energy, as opposed to other forms of energy. So, what we will be advocating very strongly, and what we'll continue to advocate very strongly, is that we stick to that mission, because that will mean some difficult choices.

On the issue of air-source pumps—that was a very detailed point there, which I'm happy to take up—as you know, we operate a low-carbon first approach. So, we assess for heat pump feasibility now as default, but we're also very aware, Janet, of concerns around the cost of operating heat pumps, so that's why we have targets around fuel reduction and carbon savings built into the Nest scheme.

We're also quite keen, by the way, as we've made clear repeatedly in this Chamber and elsewhere, and feel, in Welsh Government, that a reduction in the cost of electricity, and the way we actually denote that within bills, for example, could incentivise the switch to that low-carbon heating that you are describing. For some lower income households, depending on, for example, gas, a switch of costs to electricity could bring further financial pressure. So, we're looking for a holistic system, where the switch to more renewable forms of energy is incentivised, including through things like social tariffs as well there.

In terms of the charging points in Wales, the Climate Change Committee have pointed out that the number of charging points in Wales is in line with the UK average, but we are doing a lot more work in this space, I have to say, and are driving forward with innovation and with purpose.

In terms of seagrass, I'm pleased to say that I opened this morning, Dirprwy Lywydd, the UK national convention, which is taking place in Techniquest over the next two days. If any Senedd Members want to drop in, I'm sure they'd be really pleased to see you. But it shows the leadership we're showing here in Wales on seagrass, and other areas within the marine environment.

I agree with your points on local food and the use of our primary production, our produce that comes off our beautiful pastureland in Wales, and that we should be making the most of that. I entirely agree. And that's why we brought forward not least the community food strategy, and why we're doing work extensively on more procurement within our prison estates, within schools, with healthy eating, and so much more as well. All of this works.

Thank you to the Deputy First Minister for the statement.

I welcome what's happened during Wales Climate Week, and what's continuing with that. I also feel a lot of trepidation about what this COP could bring, not because of Wales, but elsewhere. The danger with this COP is that it could be another cop-out, another chance for world Governments to justify why saving the planet isn't quite at the top of their to-do list, another chance to miss crucial targets. I know we have to stay optimistic, but, my goodness, the world is prevaricating and delaying and looking to tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow, as the planet burns.

The COP conferences were established to help prevent dangerous climate change. Well, that ship has sailed. Our communities suffer with flooding, with water that gets into people's homes, that destroys livelihoods. We have children who are frightened by heavy rain. We've seen coal tips slip down mountainsides. We've seen landslips, sinkholes open, because our infrastructure can't cope with changing weather patterns. Would you join me in condemning the comments of those who seek to downplay the realities of these catastrophes we are living through? It's about time, isn't it, that we felt a righteous fury, an anger about the chances that are being squandered before our eyes.

There was a cartoon a few years ago in The New Yorker, and you see it sometimes on the internet. It depicts a scene where there's a group of children, they're huddled around a bonfire, and you can just about tell from what's illuminated by the flames behind them that, behind them, it's a wasteland. It's the stuff of dystopian nightmares. And one child says, 'Well, yes, the planet got destroyed, but, for a beautiful moment in time, we created a lot of value for shareholders.' Now, when we talk about the need for a wealth tax, the need to curb the excesses of billionaires—the Bezoses, the Musks of this world—it's because they could choose to stop this crisis from continuing, but, instead, they choose more wealth. Our systems let them do that, because we're living in a capitalist system that prioritises growth—not care, not quality of life, not decency, not sustainability, not even survival, but growth. And that hellscape is where we're headed.

As you've said, Dirprwy Brif Weinidog, this isn't a distant threat, it isn't the day after tomorrow; it's tomorrow, it's today, it's already happening, we're walking towards it. So, yes, there are issues I want to see prioritised, of course, by the Welsh Government and by the UK Government at COP. There are things I know that we, as Wales, can raise as a sub-state nation that I hope we'll keep pursuing. I'd love to hear more about that, please. I'd love to know more about the presence that we've had at this COP and what we're hoping we can achieve through that—how Welsh expertise is going to be heard. But I would also want to hear from this Government that, when it has calm discussions and polite meetings with the UK Government, it will bring some of that righteous fury into play, that it will convey the sense of anger and anxiety being felt by young people, especially, across Wales, that we are letting their futures slip through our fingers, and that this is one more chance to act, one second closer to midnight.

Delyth, thank you so much for that. And yes, while others are choosing to walk away from this—some are talking about scrapping their commitment, which I thought was unthinkable several years ago, scrapping their commitment to the climate targets—we're doubling down on it. We will stick fast to them, as we have done in carbon budget 1 and carbon budget 2. And it's not because, as is often portrayed out there, somewhere in the culture wars, that these are incredible burdens that we have to do or terrible things will happen. It's because of the opportunities that it also gives of being there, not just in leadership, but seizing the market opportunities of global leadership as well. And we've done this in so many ways.

Yes, just to reassure you, we are represented out there by my officials at COP. But it's not only at COP, it's the work that we've done leading up to COP—so, the engagement that we've had with the Under2 Coalition, with the Regions4 grouping as well. They value our presence in there as founding members of the Under2 Coalition, as a leading member of the Regions4, because we not only learn from others, but we drive forward. You're right in what you're saying: in some ways, it is deeply regretful that we do not have, as of this moment, the commitment of a major nation, a major player like the US, which seems to be going backwards at the moment from their commitments. But what we do have is the ability of Wales, of some of those, as you say, sub-national entities, to actually show leadership, alongside places like California, New York state and others, who are utterly committed to this.

You rightly raise the point of what we can do in engagement with UK Government. I'm really pleased that UK Government has also made very clear that it is not going to be walking away from these commitments either. It will drive forward. The role that we can play in engagement with UK Government is significant. When I was at the New York climate change week 15 months, 18 months ago, there was a real purpose in being there. One of those purposes was not just, again, to push people and promote leadership, but to engage with UK Government while we were out there and the Ministers, and speak to them directly and say, 'We want you at the table with CHAMP, the high-ambition coalition.' And indeed, within 24 hours, the Minister had announced, 'Yes, we are signing up, finally.' The UK Government had resisted for years under the Conservatives. They said, 'Yes, we absolutely see the necessity of it.'

We will keep that commitment to locking fossil fuels in the ground. We will keep that commitment to driving forward on our carbon budgets. What we bring forward will be subject to consultation, because this is the way we should do it in Wales: listen and engage with people throughout Wales, with these conversations in many, many communities to hear the ideas and to work with people across Wales. So, we're doing it with the people of Wales. In that way, we will seize the opportunities. And in that way, we build resilience for the future, so that our farming, our industry, our homes, the way we travel, are far more resilient, and we don't face the scares, for example, of geopolitics that we've seen in recent years, where we are held hostage by petrochemical states like Russia, and gas and so on.

As you say, we've achieved lots of fantastic things to decarbonise our country and deliver on our global responsibilities. It's been recognised by the UK Climate Change Committee that Wales has actually been much more consistent in this than England, for example. But, as we know, there's no room for complacency. I was really disappointed to see that Keir Starmer went all the way to Brazil, having helped establish the Tropical Forests Forever Facility, and then has decided that the UK would not be investing in it. I think that is really depressing, actually. The WWF saw it as a missed opportunity, the fact that the UK, one of the richest countries in the world, can't help save the tropical forests, which are all in the third world, and most of the tearing down of the tropical forests is occasioned by those who want to feed the beast up in the northern countries. So, we need to double down on not having any of our animals fed by soya from the Amazon forest.

You need to ask a question, please.

Okay. There's still more to do. In the feedback you've had so far from this excellent document, what do people want done about decarbonising our homes? Because I'm still disappointed that we don't have an area-based scheme, which is what we need to tackle the extent of the fuel poverty, which is affecting one in four households.

Thank you very much. That's exactly, Jenny, why we're looking forward to the ideas and suggestions that come out of these conversations that we are doing right now and going through December, January, February as well. Because I suspect that there will be, first of all, calls not to lose the gains that we have done and to keep doubling down on our commitment in terms of housing, for example.

We have previously, of course, done area-wide schemes, so I wonder whether we'll have proposals coming forward now to say what can we do on that, but what do we do with not just social landlords but also the private rented sector as well, what do we do with private householders that own their own properties, how do we do that in a way that we learn from previous schemes. So, we're looking forward to that coming forward, but let me just make this commitment to you: the CCC advice is very clear that that is one of the three big areas they see as crucial to our pathway to decarbonisation in carbon budget 3, let alone 4. On that basis, we're going to have to step up the action, but do it in a way that provides the right incentives for the housing sector to decarbonise, alongside agriculture and alongside business, but also transport.

You mentioned soya as well, and this is an important point. I'm pleased to say that we aren't starting from scratch here in Wales, but we recognise we need to do more and work with the whole supply chain to do it. We've got processors at the moment who are responding right now to consumer and supply chain pressure to reduce reliance on imported soya, because it is a real issue. Some processors are embedding now soya-free feeding as part of their conditions of supply. We've got some really progressive processors and distributors in Wales who are bolting this in to their contracts, and farmers are willingly saying, 'Yes, we're up for that', but they need to know the 'how', what do they do as an alternative.

I can't list the whole range of interventions, but for example, we already have the Growing for the Environment scheme. This supports farmers to respond to what is also, by the way, increasing input costs, including from bought-in feed and soya feed, by growing more home-grown forage with no artificial fertilisers and building that stock through the crops that they produce. I was on a field with an award-winning farmer up in Ynys Môn about four months ago looking at this, where he was in a field growing the forage for the winter within those fields. At the same time, of course, those farmers are being hit by the weather that we have, deluge or drought. So we've got to find ways to work with the farming community to do this, and with the supply chain. But you're absolutely right, the direction of travel has to be in one way, which is not deforestation through soya production, providing alternatives, and the best alternatives are ones that are home-grown, literally, on that farm.

One of the things missing from the document and your statement today is any reference to aggregates. When we consider that MTAN 1 says that aggregates produced in Wales will be closely monitored annually, and that we'll review the need for them, especially when we've seen good progress being made in terms of incorporating recycled materials in road construction in Wales, communities such as Glyncoch in my region are questioning why they continue to suffer from extractive industries such as this.

Where do you see aggregates in particular, and how we can progress on this element? Do you think we've made enough progress in terms of ensuring that we're incorporating recycled materials so that this extractive nature does not have to continue? I urge you, Deputy First Minister, to look at a film produced looking specifically at Glyncoch, called Hollow Mountain, which has just been released. It shows the environmental impact as well as the health implications and why we need to see action if we're going to see a progression towards net zero.

Thank you very much for that question. First of all, you're right, we need to do more and more as every month and every year goes past on reusing what's currently out there that has been extracted in a wide range. That's why we're so, so strong on the whole circular economy approach, and that includes in terms of aggregates—what more can we use, in terms of constructing and deconstructing buildings, of what is currently there on site to actually rebuild, repurpose, et cetera, what can we do in terms of highway construction as well, all of that.

It is undoubtedly the case, however, that we still need an aggregate industry at this moment. It has always been based in different parts of our communities and different parts of Wales through long history. But what we do have to do is constantly work to see what more we can do that doesn't require extractive industries, because that's the way we head with the circular economy. But we can't rule it out overnight, we cannot do that. We have to think about, in this just transition piece as well, how we move to that much more circular approach, using what we currently have, but recognising that, as of this moment, aggregates are still very much a need for particular sectors and for particular needs. So, we're not going to do away with it overnight.

Deputy First Minister, it's really good to hear you setting out the important progress we've made in Wales in playing our part in tackling this crucial issue facing the world of tackling climate change, and to hear you committing to continue with evidence-based policy and also our important international work with people like Jenipher's Coffi and the communities that that supports. I very much support that approach and it's very good to hear you say it.

We often talk about thinking global and acting local, Deputy First Minister. In my constituency, the Gwent levels are a good example of that. We are making real progress in protecting and enhancing those precious environmental assets and unique landscapes in the Gwent levels, with their potential ecosystem services, such as carbon storage and flood capacity storage, for example, and the way they connect people to nature, building that vital public support for work to combat climate change. Would you agree that in the overall policy that you're taking forward on tackling climate change, Deputy First Minister, that it's really important that we look at the local environmental and nature assets that we have in Wales and how they can be enhanced to play a full part?

Yes, entirely, John. I'm very much in line with the approach to working together with communities now and for future generations that was laid out in the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, which you played such a pivotal role in bringing forward. But you also remind us that nature and the climate emergency go hand in hand, but so do building nature's resilience and climate resilience as well.

There is a big benefit in this, whether this is in the Gwent levels or whether it's in the work that I've seen this morning in what we're doing in seagrass: seeding, reseeding, growing seagrass, planting out, engaging with volunteers. It really does inspire people to get involved with this as well. Seagrass is another good example of where it not only helps develop resilience to some of the climate effects that we are seeing, but it also benefits significantly nature and biodiversity.

From the Gwent levels to the coast off Porthdinllaen in north Wales, we are focused consistently, not just as a Government, but as our partners, the third sector organisations out there as well, on making sure that we address the challenges of the climate and nature emergencies together, but also find the solutions together as well, and inspire people to give us, as mentioned in this debate earlier, that idea of hope, because it can be easy to become pessimistic. What we can actually say is, 'We can see this stuff working, we need to do more of it'.

And finally, Laura Anne Jones.

Diolch, and diolch for your statement, Cabinet Secretary. Deputy Presiding Officer, the Deputy First Minister says climate change affects us all, from flooding in our communities to rising food prices, but he forgets to mention that Welsh people already face some of the highest energy bills in Europe, made worse by his own party's Government's costly and unrealistic net-zero agenda. He talks about global leadership, but families across Wales are choosing between heating and eating, farmers are drowning in red tape, and rural businesses are being pushed to the brink, all whilst Labour pats itself on the back for being world leading. Let us not forget, the same Government finds millions, as you said, to fund tree-planting schemes in Uganda, supported by Plaid, rubber stamped by the Conservatives, whilst people at home are struggling. It is not culture wars to say so. We see at COP30 that a new runway was made to accommodate multiple jets flying in, cutting down trees to do so. This is not climate leadership; it's hypocrisy. Wales needs practical solutions that work for ordinary people: affordable energy, food security—

You need to ask your question now, please.

—and genuine support for farmers. Cabinet Secretary, when the USA, China and India, the three biggest economies on the planet, don't even go to the climate summit, I want to know if you think the cost to the taxpayer for Wales of being represented there, coupled with the expensive policies you're imposing on the people of Wales as a result, which are hitting hard-working families hard, can really be justified, and how much you think can realistically be achieved without those big three there. Diolch.

I couldn't disagree further, but I'll disagree in a nice way. First of all, the Climate Change Committee makes absolutely clear that the investment that we now do in renewables and the grid, decarbonising our electricity, will give us not only the energy security that we need against geopolitical shocks, but will actually lead to bills coming down. The investment we do now will bring down those bills down.

Secondly, the interventions we do internationally, of which I am deeply, deeply proud—. And it will be interesting looking back at people who walk away from this sort of thing to see whether they ever stood alongside Fairtrade Fortnight and Jenipher's Coffi and so on in past history. Because the cost of planting a tree, throughout the years that we have been involved in international tree planting, is 15p per tree. I’ll remind you that it is 0.0001 per cent of our annual budget that goes on that. I repeat: 0.0001 per cent of our annual budget.

I recognise that Reform are completely in climate denial. They do not recognise the scale of the challenge. They do not think we should do anything about it. And let me tell you what that leads to. If Nigel Farage and his party have his way—. We still recognise there’s no leadership of Reform here in Wales, of course, at the moment. But if Nigel Farage and his ilk have their way, then what that means is we sacrifice our farmers and our food production as we are faced with drought and we are faced with deluge. We sacrifice our major infrastructure in Wales as it’s overcome by the impacts of climate change. We sacrifice communities that are constantly facing now the trauma of traumatic flooding and weather incidents. We give up on all of them. We walk away. That is what you are asking us to do. And not only that, we miss the opportunity to capture the economic and skills and jobs benefits of investing in renewables, in other announcements that are to do with jobs and skills, in Port Talbot, where we can secure the advantages for the port and the renewables, and they need it in Port Talbot. It is next door to me.

That is what Reform is asking us to walk away with. At the same time, as they say, they will reintroduce fracking in Wales and they will reopen the pits. Well, you are living in the past century. We are trying to create future centuries for all our children and grandchildren.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

Item 5 is next, a statement by the Minister for Children and Social Care, the annual report on the abuse of older people. I call on the Minister, Dawn Bowden.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. This week is Safeguarding Week, a week that invites us not only to celebrate the invaluable contributions of people across Wales, but also to reflect on the kind of society that we’re shaping for the future. Safeguarding is at the heart of everything we do, because we all know how devastating it can be when things go wrong. The Cabinet Secretary for Education's statement last week on the child practice review in Gwynedd was a stark reminder of the consequences when systems fail, and why our vigilance and commitment to safeguarding must never waver.

Safeguarding is not just a policy or a procedure. It is a shared responsibility that touches every part of our work and our communities. At its heart, safeguarding is about protecting people's rights to live safely, free from harm, abuse and neglect. It is about creating environments where children, adults and families feel supported and empowered. As we look ahead, our commitment must remain clear—to strengthen partnerships, embrace innovation, and ensure that every voice is heard. Because safeguarding is not just everyone's business, it is the foundation of a fair and compassionate society.

In 2024, the Welsh Government published the national action plan to prevent the abuse of older people, the first document of its kind in the UK. This plan was developed through cross-Government collaboration with partners, reflecting our ongoing commitment to protect those most at risk. We promised to create this plan in the strategy for an ageing society. That strategy aims to build a country where older people are respected and supported, where they can stay independent, take part in their communities, receive good care, feel fulfilled and be treated with dignity, following the United Nations principles for older people.

The national action plan supports the realisation of this vision by ensuring that older people are valued, empowered and protected from harm. It adopts a cross-Government preventative approach grounded in Welsh legislation such as the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014, which places a clear duty on public bodies to protect adults who may be at risk. The national action plan aims to ensure that safeguarding arrangements across Wales are effective, transparent and responsive to the needs of vulnerable individuals, placing a particular focus on older people. Under the Act, an adult at risk is defined as someone experiencing or at risk of abuse or neglect, who has care and support needs, and who cannot protect themselves as a result of those needs. This legal framework underpins our safeguarding work and ensures that our approach is both robust and rights based.

This year marks the first reporting cycle of the adult receiving care and support census. Data has been collected and is now being analysed for publication in the coming weeks. This data will provide us with an improved picture of the adult social care population and the services provided to them, enabling better planning and targeted interventions.

In Wales we have a strong track record of recognising and responding to adult abuse. We were also first in the UK to establish the office of the older people’s commissioner to act as an independent voice and advocate for older people—a significant step forward in protecting vulnerable older adults. The current and former older people’s commissioner have been closely involved in the development of this plan and continue to inform its implementation.

So, I'm proud to present to you today our first annual update report on our national action plan to prevent the abuse of older people. Let me highlight some of the key achievements. The national standards for safeguarding training have been developed and implemented by Social Care Wales, in collaboration with regional safeguarding boards. The review of the guidance document on domestic abuse and safeguarding older people is under way across safeguarding and violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence policy areas. Our groundbreaking single unified safeguarding review has ensured clear thematic learning, and allows clearer targeted work programmes to address key issues. The 'Supporting positive cultures' guide was launched by Care Inspectorate Wales and Social Care Wales, along with related resources, and a webinar attended by over 300 people was held. These materials and ways of working will help integrate dignity and rights within care settings.

Key areas of focus in the second year include improved collation and use of data, clearer guidance, cross-sector collaboration, evaluation of impact and improved monitoring, and a continuation of our cross-Government work to raise awareness of abuse and how it affects older people.

We remain steadfast in our commitment to address the causes and impact of ageism. Ageism is universal and manifests itself in various aspects of our daily lives. Ageism is not just a cultural issue, it is a safeguarding issue. The World Health Organization has identified ageism as a major risk factor in the abuse of older people. The older people’s commissioner has published a briefing paper outlining how ageism impacts older people’s experiences of abuse. The ministerial advisory forum on ageing has been discussing these impacts and convened a working group to explore options for addressing ageism in its many forms. The group is developing proposals to challenge damaging narratives and stereotypes, and work plans to work with other UK nations to place older people at the forefront of this programme. The national action plan is built on partnership, compassion and the unwavering belief that everyone deserves to age safely and with respect.

To further progress, I'm working with the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, Trefnydd and Chief Whip to support the older people's needs work stream, which is working to improve risk assessment for older people, and a Live Fear Free campaign focusing on sexual violence against older people. A subsequent campaign will focus on financial abuse against older people. This is part of our commitment to the prevention of abuse, as abuse of any kind has no place in Wales.

The action plan is not just a plan, it is a promise in action, a promise that in Wales, growing older will never mean growing more vulnerable. It will mean growing more respected, more protected and more heard. We all have a part to play in this, as safeguarding is everyone’s responsibility. Diolch.

I welcome today's statement by the Minister and the publication of the first annual report on the national action plan to prevent the abuse of older people—a plan that is, as you said, the first of its kind anywhere in the UK, and its ambition is significant. The issue itself is one that all of us across this Chamber should treat with the utmost seriousness.

We know from the available evidence that many older people feel that services simply aren't designed with them in mind. Many are unaware of their rights or the services that are available to them, others feel overwhelmed by the complexity of the system they must navigate. While the data available confirms that older people experience all forms of abuse—physical, emotional, financial, domestic, sexual and neglect—older people remain disproportionately vulnerable to neglect compared to the wider adult population. Yet, with these findings, we still face fundamental problems: the lack of meaningful, comprehensive data about the scale of the abuse in Wales. Without reliable, consistent information, we risk designing policy in the dark. So, Minister, when will the Welsh Government address the data gaps, and how will it ensure that safeguarding boards across Wales report information consistently and transparently, so we can finally build a full picture of what older people are experiencing across Wales?

I welcome some of the progress highlighted in the report: the work on the successor to the dementia action plan; the resident well-being toolkit, developed with Age Cymru; the support delivered to the unpaid carers through the carers support fund—I think that's a policy everyone across this Chamber can get behind; the publication of the code of practice for Llais; and a number of other things that you highlighted. But progress, Minister, must be judged on outcomes and not just those announcements. Too many older people across Wales, as I've said, still face neglect and that domestic abuse. So, Minister, what specific measures will the Government introduce to encourage and support older people to report abuse? How will you ensure that they're met with a system that responds swiftly, respectfully and consistently when they do raise concerns?

A central issue raised repeatedly by older people's organisations is accessibility. As I said, many older people feel that they cannot access the services or that those people are there to help them. So, when the Government is designing these schemes, how can we make sure that people aren't exempt from them for digital reasons? We need to make sure there are other ways people can access them. We always tell people, 'Please go online', but a lot of older people feel digitally excluded. So, I'd like to know what you're doing in this space to make sure older people can get access to help more simply.

Can I thank James for those views and comments and for the general support for the plan and the direction of travel and what we're looking to do? Again, I think it's probably worth reiterating: this is the first plan of its kind in the UK. So, we're kind of like blazing a bit of a trail here for other nations of the UK to follow our lead. What we're looking to do is to make sure that age doesn't diminish the individual's right to be treated with the dignity that they should expect.

Now, if you look across our society, one of the things, to me, that always strikes me is amongst our volunteers. Our volunteers are predominantly older people, and they have a huge contribution to make to our communities, and we have to make sure that that is not overlooked, that that is recognised and so on. So, the overarching strategy, really, is about creating a Wales where ageism doesn't limit the potential for people to affect the quality of their life and, more importantly, to affect the quality of the services that they receive.

I think you talked, quite rightly, about data and the importance of data, and I indicated in my statement that this is the first year of the adult receiving care and support census. So, we're still in the process of analysing what that data means, and we will be publishing the outcome of that in the coming weeks. It kind of mirrors the pre-existing data collection that we do for children receiving care and support. So, it mirrors that sort of process, but what data will do for us, and what this new form of data collection will do for us, is it will enable us to develop and to inform our decisions about the services that we provide for older people, particularly older people in our care system. That's very much what we're aiming to do. We already collect data from local authorities and partner organisations that's about monitoring the flows into and out of social services in Wales, but this is going to be a little bit more granular, and I hope will give us that reliable and clear understanding of how local authorities' care provision is changing over time, and how we need to adapt that over time.

You talked very specifically about digital exclusion, and I think that is something that we know the older people's commissioner has just published a report about. We're looking to do a significant piece of work in response, because older people still account for the largest demographic of those that are digitally excluded. And I know that from my own personal experience: I've got an 87-year-old mother. We taught her how to do FaceTime during COVID; she's lost the memory of how to do that now. I manage her finances, and I deal with her bank, and I've got her app on my phone and so on, and being able to get her to do that would be nigh on impossible. The point of that is I do that for her, but doesn't that potentially leave somebody open to financial abuse as well, where they are not able to do those things themselves, and rely on others to do it for them?

I welcome the publication of this plan today, and it's good to see that this Government is leading in this regard. It's entirely right to note that the abuse of older people is one of the most pressing challenges in our society. However, it is not by trumpeting the scale of stated ambition that the true value of any scheme can be measured, but rather by seeing the fruits of the action that comes in its wake, backed by the resources needed.

So, although I welcome this statement very warmly, it does raise some questions. I want to refer to three specific matters, therefore. First of all, the plan notes an objective that

'older people experiencing domestic abuse or sexual violence are able to access relevant support from Violence against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (VAWDASV) services when required'.

However, this statement will sound like empty words to constituents in our rural areas, due to the difficulties they face in accessing services. Will the Minister provide specific data, on a regional basis, which demonstrates average journey times on public transport for an older person seeking to access the closest sexual violence crisis centre, or specialist support services for victims of sexual violence, across our counties? Bearing in mind the poor state of public transport in rural areas, what directly funded initiatives will the Welsh Government be introducing to ensure that these specialist services, which are vital and so often save lives, are not unfeasible in terms of access for older survivors who are geographically isolated? And bearing in mind that key objective 2 focuses on access to VAWDASV services, what accountability measures, beyond monitoring adherence to grant conditions, are linked to year 2 objectives to guarantee better visible geographical provision of specialist support on sexual violence in the year to come?

Secondly, the scheme outlines a core objective, namely that

'older people are supported to live independently and with dignity and are able to access relevant support from safeguarding services'.

Now, this objective is totally dependent on a stable social care workforce. How can the Welsh Government credibly commit to supporting older people to live independently when the foundation of that independence, namely the social care workforce, is suffering a severe crisis in terms of pay, staff retention and dignity in the workplace? Specifically, what direct funding floor will be established to ensure that every social care worker receives a starting wage that is above the level of the real living wage, and is also benchmarked against comparable roles in the public sector, thereby making social care a competitive career path?

Diolch. Thank you, Mabon, and, again, thank you for your general welcome and support for the work that we're trying to do here. You've acknowledged that, really, we're looking at an initial plan. We've had year 1. Year 1 is really forming the basis. The work we've done in year 1 is really forming the basis of the work that we need to do in years 2 and 3, and I meet regularly with the older people's commissioner who has expressed her desire that we move, as quickly as we can, to implement a number of the objectives that we have in place.

A number of points that you have raised—. On VAWDASV, clearly that is something that is being led by my colleague, the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, and all of the issues that you raise about access to services, particularly from those in rural communities, will all be part of the work that that workstream is doing within the VAWDASV workstream. So, I hope that we'll be in a position to report back on that fairly quickly. But the whole point of that is that it has to be available to everyone. What we can't do is we can't necessarily link the VAWDASV policy to our transport system, but we can make sure that people have the appropriate access, when they need it, in a timely fashion. And so that will be something that we have to consider.

The social care workforce—. I think we've rehearsed this a number of times, Mabon. We talked about this last week in Plaid's debate on the national care service. I will repeat what I have said. We have an absolute commitment to the national care workforce. You know that we have supported the real living wage. I note your comments about us going further than that. We have an ambition to do that. We have a commitment to do that. We have signed up to the fair pay agreement, part of the UK employment legislation, and that is going to form the basis, without any shadow of a doubt, of higher pay in the sector. We already see that our social care workforce now is really just below the equivalent workforce in the NHS—it's a matter of pennies per hour now. From where we were just a few years ago, where that gap was quite a chasm and meant that we were losing people from the social care sector into the NHS in droves, we're not seeing that in quite the same way now that we have that. But I am ambitious for us continuing on that path, as we are with the whole pay and progression framework for our social care workforce, which is not just about pay. It is about professionalisation. It is about career progression. It is about us establishing our social care academies so that we can grow our own and we can encourage people from other careers to come in through the local authorities and so on and develop that career pathway.

Registration of social care workers, which is the key to professionalisation, has been growing year on year. We'll be getting this week published the social care workforce survey, and I think you'll see through that survey the response from the social care workforce itself about how they are increasingly content with their lot as social care workers—still a huge amount to do, and I'm not being complacent in this, but we have to compare it to where we were, and we're seeing a year-on-year improvement in the attitude of our workforce in terms of how they feel about being part of that.

I'm very pleased to be able to speak in this important statement today. I'm also very pleased that the Minister has mentioned ageism, and the fact that it is a safeguarding issue. I think we all know that ageism is very prevalent in our society and is one of the causes of abuse of older people. So, I think we must do all we absolutely can to combat ageism, and I'm very pleased to hear that there is a working group that's specifically to going to address those issues.

But one of the things the Minister didn't mention in her statement was the age-friendly initiative and the work with the World Health Organization, which is to give status to cities and local authorities throughout Wales, recognising the work they do to try to involve older people in their decision making. And I know that I was very pleased Cardiff has had that status since 2022, and I wondered how far that initiative had spread. And doesn't she agree that doing that sort of grass-roots work, giving opportunities to older people before they need to go into a care home or need intensive care, is vitally important and also does help to stop abuse?

Julie Morgan, thank you for those points and those questions. You're absolutely right, and the Welsh Government has been allocating £1 million a year for each local authority to appoint an age-friendly champion that will work to develop those kinds of age-friendly policies within the local authority. As you quite rightly say, it's the World Health Organization that defines what an age-friendly community looks like. We have 10 that have been recognised in Wales so far, and I'm fairly confident that, given the conversations that we've been having with the remaining 12 local authorities, we will have all 22 of our local authorities recognised by the World Health Organization as age-friendly communities by March of next year.

I've announced already that we are continuing to fund the age-friendly champions within local authorities, and that will, hopefully, support the work that they're doing. The important element of the work that they're doing is taking into account everything that a local authority does through the eyes of people growing older and how they can manage themselves around their communities as they grow older, and can do that in a safe way.

The charity Hourglass, dedicated exclusively to ending the abuse of older people, has warned that 2.6 million older people have lost money to abuse in the UK, with projections showing that over 1.5 million could become victim survivors annually by 2030, and it's described by Hourglass as the most under-recognised safeguarding crisis of our time. What action is the Welsh Government taking on this, both at tomorrow's 2025 UK Safer Ageing Summit and otherwise?

Although the Welsh Government's 2024 national action plan to prevent the abuse of older people specifically outlined that staff training in dementia required improvement—something you've already alluded to—Alzheimer's Society Cymru's 2025 lived experience survey found that this was still negatively impacting those who receive or have received professional care. What action have you taken to meet the urgent need for high-quality dementia training for all social care staff in Wales, identified by Alzheimer's Society Cymru this month, and to monitor the outcomes from this?

Finally, every day—

You've had two questions already, Mark, in your one minute.

Can I ask the final one, or not?

No.

Okay.

Thank you, Mark Isherwood, for those questions. As I did say in my statement, I'm working with the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice around the older people's needs work stream, which is working to improve risk assessments for older people and the Live Fear Free campaign. And although that is focusing on sexual abuse of older people, the next piece of work that it will be doing is a campaign focused on the financial abuse of older people. So, that is a piece of work that is planned, because we do recognise—and I have met with a group of older people who were victims of financial abuse, and I met them with the previous older people's commissioner—the shame and the embarrassment that they felt because they had been the subject of financial abuse, because they didn't feel that that was something that would ever happen to them. Quite often, it happens to them within their families and they don't want to tell anybody about that. The other element of financial abuse, of course, is them being very vulnerable to scams. We know that that is a key area that we have to address and that is something that is part of the work that I'm working on with my colleague Jane Hutt.

I mentioned the issue of digital exclusion in response to the questions that were raised by James Evans. I'm aware that the older people's commissioner, as I say, has published a report on that and it is very much part of our programme for government commitment that we deal with digital exclusion across the population, but with a very specific focus on older people. They have very different challenges in terms of digital exclusion for the reasons that I explained in my answer to James Evans.

Again, on training for dementia, just to repeat that we do have an all-Wales induction framework and health and social care qualifications for social workers in adult settings, which includes dementia, and all new workers are required to complete that training, with section 3 on the health and well-being covering issues such as indicators and signs of dementia and how that can affect individuals. We have regional training available for social care workers to be provided with dementia learning and development opportunities, as well as the all-Wales programme, and the new WeCare.Wales introduction to dementia sessions. They run once a month, they started in September, and those are aimed at helping people understand what dementia is, how those symptoms occur, and most importantly, how they can support a person to live well with dementia. So, that is already happening, and that is already being done, and obviously we will continue to monitor how effective that is, but it is something that is being rolled out across our social care workforce as we speak.

And finally, Sioned Williams.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. The abuse of older people continues to be one of the forms of abuse that is perhaps most hidden in our society, and we must continue to do more to prevent it and respond more effectively when it does occur.

The importance of giving equal attention to prevention as well as safeguarding is clear, and multi-agency working has to be effective in order to deliver that. Independent advocacy can make a very real difference to those at risk, or who are subject to safeguarding investigations, helping older people to ensure that their voices are heard. We have heard, haven't we, about the importance of that over the past week—ensuring that people's voices are heard in these scenarios.

So, we need better awareness, I think, of the advocacy services available, among older people and professionals, in order to help to ensure that support reaches those who most need it. So, what work is being done to increase access to independent advocacy for older people who are at risk, or who are subject to safeguarding investigations? Thanks.

Diolch, Sioned. Again, I agree with everything that you are saying. One of the things that struck me when I took on this role and found that older people were in the portfolio, and I started to deal with the older people's commissioner and meet with older people, is, actually, for the first time properly recognising how ageism adversely impacts on the lives of older people. It's not necessarily overt ageism; it's the kind of—. We have experienced this, haven't we, as women? It's the sexism that we kind of live with; older people kind of live with the ageism.

It takes Government to intervene and to draw attention to society that this is happening, and this is how we have to address it. That's really what the action plan is all about. It's focusing on ageism. It's focusing on how we tackle ageism, how we ensure that people have dignity in everything that they do, and that our policies and procedures, in everything that we do, take account of how older people see that, and how it is seen through the eyes of older people. That's so important when we come on to prevention and safeguarding as well.

I absolutely agree with what you are saying about independent advocacy. Certainly, one of the outcomes of the plan in its first year was to develop a code of practice for Llais, and that's about to be published now. That's about access, it's about involvement, it's about giving those people a voice. You are quite right: it is very difficult for people to advocate for themselves. Even when you don't have all the other barriers in place, it's difficult to advocate for yourself. So, I do hope that the code of practice for Llais will help people be able to access the support and the advocacy services that they need, because Llais can absolutely point them in the right direction.

Your final point was—. Well, that was your final point, actually, but there was another point that you made about multi-agency working. I am very much part of the VAWDASV work. The work that we are doing on financial abuse is about how do we properly risk assess the dangers to our older population, and that can't be done by one agency alone. Older people will deal with a plethora of agencies through the course of their lives, particularly in their later years, whether it is health, whether it is social care, whether it is the local authority, whether it is whatever it might be. All of those agencies have to come together and work together to make sure that risks are properly identified and directed in the right way. That is very much what the plan is aiming to do.

I thank the Minister.

Item 6 is a debate on remembrance. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales to move the motion. Ken Skates.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. This motion speaks not only to our history, but to our identity, our values and our shared future. This was a motion shared across the party groups beforehand. It reflects previous debates in an area where there is strong consensus.

It calls on us to recognise the enduring importance of the remembrance period to families and communities across Wales, and to honour the service and sacrifice of those who have worn the uniform of our armed forces. It invites us to acknowledge the tireless work of those who support our veterans, to reaffirm our commitment to peace, and to remember all who have lost their lives in war, including civilians, whose stories are often forgotten.

This year marks the eightieth anniversaries of both VE Day and VJ Day—two milestones that signalled the end of the most devastating conflict in human history. For many, these anniversaries are not just historical footnotes; they are personal and they are lived memories. In Wales, the remembrance period is woven into the fabric of our communities, from the smallest village memorials to the national observance, which the First Minister and party group representatives attended at the cenotaph on Sunday. We gather each November not to glorify war, but to honour courage, sacrifice and the hope of peace. We wear our poppies not as decoration, but as a promise that we will remember, and we do remember.

We remember the young men from all communities who fought in the jungles of Burma and on the beaches of Normandy. We remember the women who served in the Auxiliary Territorial Service, the Women's Auxiliary Air Force and the Women's Royal Naval Service, who kept our country running while their loved ones were away. We remember the merchant seamen from ports across Wales who braved the Atlantic convoys, and the Bevin Boys, who mined the coal that powered the war effort. We remember evacuees, the nurses, the code breakers, the countless civilians who endured the Blitz, rationing and loss.

We also remember the diversity of those who served. That was reflected in the Royal British Legion's VE Day event at the Senedd, and, more recently, we were pleased to continue our support for the black, Asian and minority ethnic remembrance service, which my colleague the Cabinet Secretary for social justice attended. And my colleague the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning attended a wonderful Royal British Legion festival of remembrance in Newport at the international convention centre. Within that, we remembered 25 years since the end of the gay ban in the armed forces, recognised, of course, earlier in the week by His Majesty the King.

VE Day, Victory in Europe, was a moment of relief and celebration, but it was also a moment of reckoning. The cost of victory was immense. VJ Day, Victory over Japan, came months later after some of the most brutal fighting in the Pacific and the horrors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. For many Welsh families, VJ Day marked the return of loved ones who had been prisoners of war or who had served in conditions that defy imagination. For others, it marked the beginning of grief that would never fully heal. These anniversaries remind us that peace is precious, that freedom is fragile, and that the sacrifices made by previous generations must never, ever be taken for granted.

But, of course, remembrance is not just about the past, it is also about the present and the people who continue to serve and who have served in conflicts and operations since. Today, thousands of individuals from Wales serve in our armed forces. They serve in the Royal Navy, the British army, the Royal Air Force and the reserves. Some 7 per cent of the UK's armed forces come from Wales, from a population of 5 per cent. They serve in peacekeeping missions, humanitarian operations and in defence of our nation and our allies. They train, they deploy, they sacrifice, and they do so with professionalism, with courage and quiet dignity. We owe them our gratitude, not just in words, but in actions, and that means ensuring that they have the right support that they need during service and after. It means recognising the unique challenges faced by military families: frequent moves, separation and the emotional toll of deployment, and how health, housing, education and other services for which we are responsible have a part to play in that. It means ensuring that when service ends, support does not.

I'd like to thank the Welsh Government and the Minister for bringing forward this motion. It reflects a moment in our national life when we pause quietly, collectively and with reverence to remember all those who lost their lives so that we can enjoy the freedoms that we have today. Each year, the remembrance period gives us a space to honour those who served, those who suffered and those who never came home. This year, we mark the eightieth anniversary of VE Day and VJ Day. We reflect once more on the extraordinary generation who, in the darkest of times, stood firm in the defence of our islands. Their courage brought the peace we often take for granted. Their sacrifice shaped the world we know today.

For many of us, remembrance is personal. My father served in the army and both my grandfathers served before him. One endured the terror of being torpedoed twice while at sea and survived to tell the tale. The other played his part in the liberation of Europe. Their stories are carried in my family, as similar stories are carried through families right the way across Wales. They remind us that the cost of war is measured not only in battles, but in lives interrupted, futures changed and families forever marked by loss.

During this period, we also remember those who served in later conflicts. We remember those who served in the Falklands conflict, where young men from Wales found themselves thousands of miles away from home on the far side of the world facing down tyranny. I was honoured, along with other members of the cross-party group in the Senedd, to lay a wreath at the memorial in the Falklands, something that I will never forget. We remember the Balkans, including Kosovo, where Welsh personnel helped bring stability and compassion to communities torn apart by violence. We remember more recent conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan, conflicts that shaped a generation of servicemen and servicewomen from Wales. Many gave their lives, many returned with wounds, both seen and unseen, and we hold them in our thoughts today.

Deputy Presiding Officer, Wales has long played a central role in the defence of the United Kingdom. From north to south, our military presence forms an integral part of our national resilience. In the south, we have HMS Cambria. It stands as a testament to the commitment of our naval reservists, men and women who balance the complexities of civilian life with the highest responsibilities of service, and HMS Cambria is the home of the Royal Navy in Wales.

In my own constituency in Brecon, the Infantry Battle School prepares soldiers for the harsh realities of modern conflict. Its instructors, its staff and its trainees demonstrate professionalism of the highest order. Alongside them, the 160th (Welsh) Brigade anchors the army leadership and readiness here in Wales. In the north, RAF Valley continues its essential work in training the next generation of fast-jet pilots, supporting search-and-rescue missions that have saved countless lives. The base stands as a reminder of the close bond between our armed forces and the communities that welcome them and call them home.

As every year passes, the pain grows in terms of Remembrance Day. Yes, we keep in our minds the sacrifice of all those lost in world wars, but we are also alive to failures over many decades to keep the peace and the high price that continues to be paid for that to this day.

We bear witness today to the emptiness of the words that portrayed the first world war as the war that would bring an end to all wars in Sudan, in Ukraine, in Gaza, to name but three conflicts or genocides. The atrocities of oppression and violence bring pain and suffering that we cannot comprehend to millions of people. And let us say this once again with one voice: that arming oppressors isn't in keeping with calling for a ceasefire, it's never in keeping with calling for peace.

According to the latest figures of the United Nations, 117 million people have had to flee their homes across the world as a result of persecution, war, violence or crimes against humanity. Among these, there are 42 million refugees. With the global population increasing, our planet feels ever smaller as people migrate from one country to another, or even cross continents, to seek peace and shelter.

Let us keep some fundamental values in our mind today—values of peace, of care for our fellow human beings and of mercy. Wales has always been a nation of welcome, a nation of kindness and a nation that supports others, and I want to see that continue, not only in honouring those passed in past wars and giving sanctuary to those in need, but also by giving a pledge to our veterans that they won't be forgotten, either in accessing health and care services, and expert care as a result of trauma, or the right to stable, quality accommodation. We are all duty bound as politicians to do everything within our ability to support our communities.

Let us today reinforce our commitment to create a world that is safer, where words can deliver more than weapons and where all peoples in all nations can live fear free, and where remembering, as we do on this day annually, past losses and the pain of war influences us on a daily basis to insist on peace.

This year, as a consequence of misplacing the first, I purchased not one but two poppies. You're probably wondering why I'm sharing such a mundane story with you around such an important issue. Well, I purchased my first poppy from a very small girl, probably around seven years of age, supported by her mum, and I bought my second from a gentleman much nearer 70 years of age rather than seven, with his beret and medals proudly on display. The gap between the two in age and experience was huge, but the commitment of both was very much on a par, filling me with both pride and joy that, on this particular matter, the generations, year after year, come together to each do their bit and help us to both remember and to say a heartfelt 'thank you' to all who've lost their lives due to war and conflict, so we can enjoy the freedoms we have today.

On Sunday, I again attended the main remembrance service in my Wrexham constituency, where I was struck not only by the large number of people attending, but by the ages represented: the old, the middle-aged, the young, the children, including the cadets, all coming together with a shared purpose. For such a sombre occasion, it was heartwarming to see.

Of course, Wrexham has long been a military town, now city, for some 140 years, and the military was well represented on Sunday. But there were also many from the local area who have few, if any, direct links with the army, the Royal Navy, the Royal Air Force and other services, but who still wished to attend and be part of this annual very important gathering. This year, of course, marked the eightieth anniversary of VE Day and VJ Day. I want to thank all who took part in Remembrance Day and Armistice Day services in my own constituency and beyond, whether in person or, perhaps due to poor health or age, from their own homes in front of their television sets. I want to thank also the many individuals, volunteers and charities that offer such wonderful support to our veterans.

I also want to thank the Welsh Government for the support it provides to our veterans, including Veterans' NHS Wales and the armed forces liaison officers, who may be small in number, but they do such valuable work right across our country. I also want to thank the UK Government for working jointly with the Welsh Government on support for veterans via the Veterans Commissioner for Wales. So, thank you Deputy Presiding Officer. I'm very pleased to have been able to make a small contribution to today's debate. In conclusion, I wish to simply say, to all who've given so very much for us, that we and I will remember you.

I'm pleased to take part in today's debate, and I thank the Cabinet Secretary for bringing it forward and introducing it. As the Member of the Senedd for Monmouth, I am deeply honoured each year to attend remembrance services across the county. This year I had the privilege of joining commemorations in Usk and my own village of Portskewett, where I laid wreaths in tribute to those who have made that ultimate sacrifice. Though only a small token of remembrance, moments like these grow evermore vital each year. They give us the space to reflect, to listen, to honour the sacrifices made for the freedoms we enjoy, and often take for granted, today. We remember the fallen, not only at this time of year, but always. Their legacy lives on in our communities, our values, our commitment to peace.

Remembrance Day has become deeply woven into the fabric of Wales, reflected in local traditions, services and events that bring our communities together. These moments not only foster unity, but more importantly deepen our understanding of the sacrifices made in the name of peace and freedom. In today's world, understanding and unity are values we must hold close, not just on Remembrance Day, but every day. Remembrance is not only about honouring those lost in past wars, but also about recognising the conflicts unfolding across the world today. Our gratitude must extend to those currently serving, working tirelessly to bring peace and stability to regions in crisis.

Our armed forces play a vital role, not just overseas, but here at home. We've seen their unwavering commitment during times of flooding, national emergencies and throughout the pandemic, always ready to support and protect our communities when called on.

Thanks must go to the families of veterans, and I know well as a father of a veteran who was injured in service the toll it can take on families. So, thank you to those families for all they do to support our veterans. Thanks to the many charities, organisations and individuals who tirelessly support our armed forces personnel. Their dedication is constant and their impact immeasurable.

Our veterans today face too many issues when leaving the armed forces, including homelessness and often feelings of isolation. It is simply unacceptable that any veteran should face such hardship after giving so much in service to Wales and the UK, and we must do all that we can to ensure that we do what we can to support them. Many who leave the armed forces do so carrying complex physical injuries or mental health conditions, a reflection of the immense challenges they have faced in service. Our NHS in Wales must be equipped to provide the specialist care veterans need. If it isn't, how can we expect it to deliver the support they deserve? We need to see initiatives such as permanent peer mentors across our health boards, a vital step in ensuring long-term consistent support for those who have served. Sadly, this kind of continuity is often missing, and it's time we changed that.

It is an honour to pay tribute to those who have served our country, particularly this year, as we mark the eightieth anniversaries of both VE Day and VJ Day. But with that relief, the victories also came with the deep despair of thousands of families across Wales who were left to grieve loved ones who had made the ultimate sacrifice.

Over the weekend I heard a surviving veteran of the second world war say on the news that war was a waste and a terrible tragedy. A tragedy that sadly continues today. Every one of us in this Chamber will have had relatives who went to war. My great-grandfather, Thomas Morris, was killed in action in Mesopotamia in 1917. He was aged just 32. Following his death, my grandfather spent time in an orphanage. It was an experience he rarely spoke about, but he too was a victim of war.

As I attended the memorial service in Treuddyn on Sunday, I spoke with Morris. He was a farmer from Hope Mountain, and he shared a story about how a local farming family lost all three of their sons to war. He carried with him a framed photograph of three shire horses, each turning their heads in unison. And I said I'd bring it to the Senedd today. I just wanted to share that with you. He said they turned their heads at the same moment that their owner bowed his head in memory of the fallen. It was a powerful image of shared loss and remembrance.

Morris continued to speak about the sacrifice of animals in the war. During the first world war, more than a million horses were taken from civilians across Britain for military service, and only 60,000 returned. Their role was critical, pulling guns, transporting supplies and hauling ambulances for the wounded. And in the second world war, stealth mules had their voice boxes removed so they couldn't shout out in fear at the loud noises being made around them. They were kept silent. They used to carry supplies across enemy lines in Burma. It's a stark reminder of the cruelty of the war and the sacrifices made of the innocent, and to animals as well as humans.

As we remember those who served and those who never came home, we also honour the courage, compassion and resilience of those who continue to work for peace today. Their sacrifice reminds us that remembrance is not only about the past, it's a call to protect the peace and freedoms that we cherish today, and to ensure that future generations never have to endure that same loss. Thank you.

I'd like to start by thanking those who brought forward this motion today and, of course, we as a party firmly support it. I'm sure we all agree, across this Chamber, what an absolute honour it is to lay wreaths on behalf of our constituents on Remembrance Sunday and Remembrance Day. Every year, I'm humbled to stand alongside veterans, serving personnel, families, importantly young people, and members of our community who come together to remember those who gave everything for our country. As many of you here will know, I come from a farming family, but the other half of my family are army. That connection has shaped me deeply, and I will always have an enormous respect and admiration for our armed forces and for our veterans. I grew up listening to stories of war that were fascinating and even inspiring, but what stays with me most is that look on my grandfather's face when a question would touch a memory that he did not want to revisit. The silence and his eyes said more than words ever could. It was a reminder that, behind every medal, every story of courage, there was also deep pain and sacrifice.

At the weekend, in Abergavenny, I heard more stories from veterans—some joyful, some heartbreaking. The camaraderie between them was palpable and inspiring, but so too was the clear reminder of the toll that service takes. Many still carry those scars today, both visible and invisible. Our soldiers, on land, at sea and in the air, gave or were prepared to give their lives so we might enjoy the freedoms that we so often take for granted. We must never forget that debt. I will always be thankful to those heroes and also those that stayed at home to keep the country running—the land girls, the factory workers, the nurses and all those who kept our nation fed and functioning throughout those darkest days. My father often tells me how, during the war, people came to Usk in Monmouthshire to help on the farms. They worked long hours and in difficult conditions, doing their bit to help the men and women serving overseas. It's part of our history that deserves to be remembered with equal pride.

This Remembrance Week it was heartening to see so many young people at the service in Abergavenny on Sunday, and again this morning in Usk at the castle. Seeing the next generation stand in quiet respect gives real hope that they really understand the meaning of remembrance, that they truly grasp the scale of sacrifice made by those who came before them. As we remember those who fell in the world wars, we must also remember those in the more recent conflicts—in the Falklands, in the Gulf, Iraq, Afghanistan—and those who continue to serve today, often far from home. Their courage and commitment are the living continuation of the values we honour each November.

Remembrance, of course, is a verb. It's not a noun, it's an action, and not simply a passive voice. And it's a challenge. It's a challenge to all of us. The act of remembering and how we remember the sacrifices of servicemen and servicewomen speaks to who we are and who we wish to be.

When the first cemeteries were laid out in Flanders following the first world war, the headstones were designed to be uniform, without reference to the religion or the nationality of the individual soldier, or their rank or social standing. All those men lying together, united in suffering and sacrifice. And the people who designed those cemeteries were, of course, the people who had witnessed that suffering and that sacrifice. They were people who knew the meaning of war. They knew what war sounded like, what war smelt like and they knew what war felt like. And at the same time, a year after Armistice Day in 1919, the first two-minute silence was held. And again, war and sacrifice and loss was met by a silence, and that silence speaks to all of us. In many ways, it's more powerful than a politician's speech or even the words well meant. It is a powerful recognition of peoples united in loss and sacrifice and respect and gratitude. In many ways, this silence is the most powerful symbol we have of remembrance.

But remembrance must mean more than simply an event held once a year. It is, as I've said, a challenge to all of us. It means that we take care of veterans, that we take care of the families of veterans. It means that we invest in today's armed forces, that we invest in the people who are serving today, as well as looking after the victims and those who have suffered as a consequence of conflict. But it is more than this, and it has to be more than this. Many of us have referred this afternoon to the eightieth anniversaries we've marked this year. The generation who fought and defeated fascism in the 1940s were the same generation that established the United Nations. The charter was signed in San Francisco in June 1945, whilst the fighting was still taking place. And it is a powerful document, because it speaks:

'We the peoples of the United Nations'.

'We the people'—not the Governments, but the people, who spoke about what sacrifice and what war had meant to that generation in that time. And they established the United Nations to create the conditions for peace. The same generation established the European convention on human rights, because they knew what the loss of human rights meant. Human rights isn't simply our ability to speak here, although it is, but it's the right to live in peace, and the right to live without prejudice, and the right to live without racism and all the other things that people had witnessed at that time. And that generation also established the foundations of the greatest peace project we have seen in our continent, the European Union. And it was that generation who had borne witness to conflict and war, but shared the deepest commitment of all, to putting in place a future where borders are removed and not built up, walls are taken down, human rights are universal and enforced openly and fairly, and that is why we created and they created the United Nations.

We live in a time of great division, but remembrance should unite us, as Alun said about the graves in Flanders—unite us across different faiths, cultures, backgrounds. Today is an opportunity to remember everyone who has served and everyone who has suffered in wars over the centuries. On Remembrance Sunday this year, of course, Wales were playing rugby against Argentina, and many here will remember the time when soldiers in Wales fought soldiers from Argentina. While in Patagonia, I saw a Welsh name engraved on a military memorial on the way to Cwm Hyfryd. Having asked, I discovered that the man named was a great-grandson of Thomas Tegai Awstin, who set sail on the Mimosa. I had the great pleasure of meeting members of his family, who continue to be linchpins of the Welsh-speaking community there. This demonstrates how a friend can become an enemy all too swiftly. However, as Sunday showed us, and as European history teaches us, enemies can also be turned back into friends. It's important to remember that.

Some of you will remember when Cardinal Basil Hume was called unpatriotic for praying for both British and Argentine soldiers. He argued, in face of criticism, that it was his Christian duty to pray for all who suffer and die in war, friend or foe, because we are all children of God. In a discussion last week, somebody pointedly told me that the UK is a Christian country. For anyone trying to use our faith as means to divide, it's worth remembering the words of Basil Hume, and, even more importantly, it's worth remembering the words of Jesus Christ and how Jesus Christ treated people outside his nation and outside his faith. Unfortunately, we live in an age that others people. We dehumanise, we concentrate on differences, rather than on what we have in common. We put people in a category away over there because of their nationality, or their faith, or even what political party they vote for.

Britain did not have to stand alone at any point during the second world war. Because of its empire, men and women from every continent fought for democracy—international solidarity against a Nazi regime that wanted an ethnically pure world. It is estimated that, in two world wars, almost 170,000 British Indian soldiers lost their lives, with a further quarter of a million Indian servicemen and women wounded or became prisoners of war. The figures are even higher for Muslim allied soldiers, with 1.5 million being killed in action in the second world war. There's a plaque at the national war memorial in Cardiff—and if you haven't seen it, please go—that acknowledges the sacrifice of diverse ethnic and Commonwealth men and women. When unveiled, this plaque revealed family historic stories of young men and women who arrived in Cardiff during the time of the coal boom from the Caribbean, making Tiger Bay their home. It goes on to tell of the feeling that they felt that they to sign up, the responsibility they had to sign up and serve Wales and the United Kingdom. The photos shared by families show forever-young men suspended in time.355

The empire is long gone, never to return, but I believe that Wales and the UK still have a role to play in the world. We can be a bastion of tolerance, of kindness and of respect. And that is how we never forget the sacrifice that so many made for our freedom. Diolch yn fawr.

The Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales now to reply—Ken Skates.

Diolch, Llywydd, and may I thank all Members for their tributes today? We've heard tributes of a personal nature and reflections of having had loved ones who have served, and there have been tributes to all who have served and do serve. Lesley Griffiths highlighted the diversity and size of attendance at Wrexham on Sunday, and it's true, the attendance was phenomenal, the diversity was indeed impressive, and I think this was reflected across all of our communities and demonstrates that, in this troubled world, we have a growing movement of people who genuinely and sincerely want a more civil society, a more respectful society, a more responsible society, and one that remembers the devastating cost of conflict and war.

Peter Fox referred to unity. I think it's ironic that our armed forces, deployed when and where there is severe disunity and conflict, so often bring us together in unity and to pledge our commitment to peace. Many atrocities, many conflicts, wars, battles and acts of genocide have been highlighted today, but so too, by every single person who has contributed, the need to pursue and to protect peace, and James Evans stated that peace must be protected by those with the courage to defend it. That's absolutely right.

In terms of courage, a veteran on Sunday told me that courage is not the taking of action in the absence of risk. Courage is the pursuit of what is needed in the full knowledge of the challenge, loss and suffering that will have to be overcome. Well, the veins of our armed forces flow with courage, and, Llywydd, today we honour and remember them.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed.

The next items are items 7 and 8 on the general principles of the Environment (Principles, Governance and Biodiversity Targets) (Wales) Bill, and unless two Members object, the two motions under items 7 and 8, the principles and the financial resolution, will be debated together with votes held separately.

And if there is no objection to that, I will ask the Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs to move the motion—Huw Irranca-Davies.

Thank you, Llywydd. It's a great pleasure for me to open this debate on the general principles of the Environment (Principles, Governance and Biodiversity Targets) (Wales) Bill, and to put forward a motion on the financial resolution. Llywydd, I'd like to thank the Chairs and members of the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee, the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee and the Finance Committee for their scrutiny of the Bill during Stage 1.

I truly appreciate the work that's gone into delivering the very comprehensive and helpful reports within a very tight timescale, and, in particular, I welcome the recommendation of the climate change committee that the Senedd should support the general principles of the Bill, which I hope Members today will also endorse. I would also like to thank the stakeholders and the communities that have contributed to, supported and, indeed, worked with us to develop the proposals for this vital legislation. Their combined perspective, expertise and challenge has been instrumental in shaping and refining this Bill so far and will continue to be as we go through the next stages of the legislative process.

When debating legislation, Llywydd, it's often easy for us as policy makers to focus straight away on the policy detail. But, before we do this, I just want to take a moment today to recognise the impact this Bill will have on nature in Wales. At its very core, this legislation will strengthen environmental protection. It will drive us forward in the crucial years ahead. It will underpin our actions to preserve and restore the environment during a climate and a nature emergency. And the Bill achieves this in three ways. It establishes an environmental objective, introduces four core environmental principles and duties to integrate environmental protection. We will create the Office of Environmental Governance Wales to oversee and enforce environmental law. The Bill also establishes a framework empowering Welsh Ministers to set targets in secondary legislation to contribute to halting and reversing biodiversity loss.

When I introduced this Bill in June, I highlighted its essential role in addressing the climate and nature emergencies. Since then, the urgency has only increased, with the UK experiencing its hottest summer on record—1.5 degrees above average—causing droughts that harmed ecosystems and agriculture. Scientists warn that earth's climate and nature are already passing key tipping points. That means that now more than ever before, we must all act to protect Wales's natural environment, which is so vital to our own well-being.

I'm encouraged that committee recommendations reflect this urgency and I acknowledge that there are areas in the Bill that could, indeed, be enhanced. So, I have responded to the Finance Committee's recommendations, and I will soon address those from the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee and the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee. I also plan to outline Government amendments in a written statement later this week. But, in the meantime, I will respond to key recommendations and highlight amendments that we intend to introduce, though I cannot cover every single point today.

The Chair of the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee now—Llyr Gruffydd.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. I'm pleased to have the opportunity to contribute to today's debate on a Bill that has been very highly anticipated. Before turning to the committee's report, I would like to thank everyone who has given evidence to inform our consideration of the Bill as a committee. I would also like to thank the Cabinet Secretary for the constructive way that he engaged with the committee, both in the run-up to the Bill's introduction and during Stage 1.

However, it is a shame that we weren't given forewarning of some of the things that you said in your opening remarks, because that has undermined many of the points that I intended to make. But, there we are. So, if you will forgive me, I will try to remember everything that you had to say, but I will have to remind myself as I move forward, perhaps, of that.

That does highlight the problems in not getting a response to the Stage 1 report before the debate on Stage 1. I understand, of course, that everything is in order—no rules have been broken here—but I think, practically, that it is better that we have all the information at our fingertips before we have to respond in such a debate and make a decision as to whether it should move to Stage 2, of course.

However, as a committee, we have made no secret of the fact that we want the Welsh Government to legislate to address the significant post-EU exit environmental governance gap, and to introduce legally binding biodiversity targets to drive action to tackle the ongoing nature emergency. We are therefore pleased that a Bill has now been introduced, albeit much later than perhaps we would have liked, as a committee.

In scrutinising the Bill, we considered the general principles of each of its three substantive Parts, and I will speak to them briefly. Part 1 delivers the Welsh Government's long-standing commitment to enshrine the internationally recognised environmental principles in Welsh law. It seeks to ensure that these principles are embedded across future policy and law making in Wales, strengthening the foundation for environmental protection and governance. There was strong support among stakeholders for this approach.

The evidence that we received in relation to Part 2 was also compelling. Wales needs a new environmental oversight body to hold the Welsh Government and public authorities to account in respect of their environmental obligations. Contributors emphasised that this body must be genuinely independent, must have robust enforcement powers and sufficient resources too, if it's to command public confidence and deliver meaningful outcomes.

As we highlighted in our report as a committee, 'Halting and reversing the loss of nature by 2030', which we published back in January of this year, biodiversity loss is as important as climate change, and it calls for the same urgency of response, but it hasn't received the same policy focus or priority in legislation. Part 3 of the Bill provides an opportunity to address that. We heard from contributors that legally binding biodiversity targets will be vital in driving action to deliver on Wales's domestic and global biodiversity commitments. So, given the strong support among contributors for all three Parts of the Bill, we're pleased to be able to recommend as a committee that the Senedd supports the general principles of the Bill.

Now, before moving to some of the key issues addressed in our report, it's important to reflect on the timing of the Bill. The implications of the decision to introduce the Bill later in the sixth Senedd mean that responsibility for its implementation will fall on the next Welsh Government. This was a key concern raised by many contributors. We heard strong calls for greater clarity and strength in the Bill's provision to ensure that it fully delivers on the policy intentions, and for more ambitious time frames to enable it to be rapidly implemented. Our recommendations have been made in response to those calls, and I will review the Deputy First Minister's comments, who has referred to the intention for a gear shift in that regard.

We made 42 recommendations in total. Thirty six of these are for amendments to the Bill. We are expecting a formal response from the Cabinet Secretary imminently, but, of course, I would urge him, as he has already suggested in opening this debate, to be open to persuasion in terms of amendments as the Bill makes its way through the remaining stages of the scrutiny process.

I will therefore turn to some of the key issues raised during our scrutiny work. First of all, on Part 1, I want to focus my comments on the application of the environmental principles and integrating steps to safeguard the environment. The duty on Welsh Ministers to give what's called 'special regard' to the principles when making policy is undoubtedly a step that we would welcome, and one that should lead to making these principles a prominent feature of the decision-making process. But we did hear from contributors that limiting the scope of the duty to policy that has or could have an environmental impact creates uncertainty, leaves room for considerable discretion and undermines the principle of integration. So, we have called for the scope of the duty to be extended to all policies, to address this.

The Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee now, Mike Hedges.

Diolch, Llywydd. The Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee’s report on the Bill drew two conclusions and made eight recommendations. It is disappointing that we have only received a holding response from the Cabinet Secretary, but look forward to receiving a positive response to our recommendations in due course.

The delay to the introduction of this important Bill is a concern to the committee, and we do not consider that this delay has been adequately explained to the Senedd. We noted that the Office of Environmental Governance Wales may not be operational for up to two years from Royal Assent, and certain substantive provisions in the Bill are to be commenced by Order at the discretion of the Welsh Ministers. Furthermore, the Bill itself does not set biodiversity targets, and only requires the Welsh Government to bring forward regulations setting targets in four priority areas within three years of Royal Assent. As a result, we concluded that, without robust evidence to the contrary, it appears that the Bill has been deprioritised by the Welsh Government.

Under Part 1 of the Bill, the Welsh Ministers are required to set out how the four principles in section 2 relate to each other, and how they relate to the environmental objective set out in section 1. However, there is no express requirement in the Bill to set out the interpretation of the principles. We believe that the Welsh Government should take steps to remove the potential for uncertainty and consequently provide clarity about the interpretation of the principles. While the Cabinet Secretary told us that the four environmental principles are well established and understood, we do not believe that this explains, using a non-exhaustive list, what constitutes 'making policy'.

Turning now to Part 2 of the Bill, about the Office of Environmental Governance Wales, the Cabinet Secretary told us that this new body will be independent from Government. We said that a statement to this effect would be helpful and, as a result, we recommended that the Bill should be amended to include provision that expressly confirms the independence from Government of the Office of Environmental Governance Wales.

Section 29 provides for the meaning of 'environmental law', a fundamental definition in the Bill. Subsection (4) provides a power, if exercised, to substantially affect provisions in the Bill by adding, amending or removing provisions that can be considered ‘environmental law’ for the purposes of the Act. Any amendment to the definition has a substantial bearing on the scope of the functions of the Office of Environmental Governance Wales. We recognise there are benefits to removing ambiguity about whether certain provision comes under the definition, and that there may be a need to reflect court decisions on such matters. We therefore acknowledge that the power may be justified in principle. However, given the breadth of the power and its potential impact on the functions of the Office of Environmental Governance Wales, we recommended that this regulation-making power should be subject to an enhanced form of the Senedd approval procedure. In particular, the Bill should be amended to require mandatory consultation, including public consultation, and a longer laying period in the Senedd to allow sufficient time for meaningful scrutiny.

And the Chair of the Finance Committee is next—Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Diolch, Llywydd, and I welcome the opportunity to contribute to today's debate, and I'm pleased to note that the Deputy First Minister has accepted all of our six recommendations in response before today's debate, and I wouldn't want to upset Llyr, of course, by saying that we received that response before the debate, which makes my job easier in terms of contributing to this debate.

But let me begin with the Bill appraisal period. The regulatory impact assessment estimates a total cost of £33.64 million over a 10-year appraisal period. However, it does not attempt to qualify the benefits over the same time frame. Instead, it presents indicative costs of £664 million and benefits of more than £1.7 billion over a much longer 78-year horizon. We understand that this extended time frame is consistent with the UK Government's approach to the Environment Act 2021. We were also told an indicative estimate is presented as the Welsh Government is unable to monetise benefits from most aspects of the Bill, which are yet to be determined. While we recognise that the environment costs and benefits often emerge over the long term, we have found it extremely difficult to assess the accuracy of such long-range projections. And although we are broadly content with the financial implications presented, it's important to acknowledge that the full picture remains uncertain. We are particularly concerned that the RIA provides no explanation or breakdown for the £664 million cost estimate. This lack of transparency undermines confidence in the figures. This is why we have called on the Deputy First Minister to explain how this figure was calculated in a revised RIA after Stage 2, and I am pleased to see that he has responded positively to that recommendation. We also heard that further modelling will be undertaken as the Bill progresses, and that more accurate figures will be provided for subordinate legislation. As this is far from ideal, we have recommended that the Deputy First Minister publishes full and robust RIAs to accompany subordinate legislation, and I welcome the assurances provided in his response.

Looking ahead, we expect a clear assessment of the actual costs and benefits of the Bill to be included in the post-implementation review. As we have commented in relation to other Bills, this is essential to ensure legislation delivers value for money and achieves intended outcomes. It's particularly important given the scale and significance of this Bill and the indicative nature of the estimates presented. Our third recommendation, therefore, asks the Deputy First Minister to quantify the actual costs and benefits arising from the Bill as part of the post-implementation review, and to confirm the timescales of the review. Again, the Deputy First Minister accepts this recommendation, although the timing of the post-implementation review remains unclear, and I would welcome further clarification from him on this.

Finally, Llywydd, I would like to turn to the costs relating to the proposed Office of Environmental Governance Wales. We were told that a new stand-alone environmental governance body is necessary to effect the distinct Welsh policy and legislative context. The office is estimated to cost approximately £20 million over 10 years, with annual running costs of £2.79 million, which is based on the running costs of Environmental Standards Scotland. We are surprised by this comparison, given the emphasis on creating a body tailored to the Welsh context, and we are disappointed that the RIA provides no breakdown of these annual running costs, particularly in relation to staffing and the cost impact on Audit Wales. It stands in contrast to the biodiversity target-setting framework, where a clear breakdown of staffing and implementation costs is provided.

As a result, we have asked the Deputy First Minister to provide more detail on the annual running cost for the office and to explain how the Scottish figures have been adjusted for Wales. In addition, we have requested a breakdown of the staffing resources required to run the office, and an estimate of the cost impact on Audit Wales, in consultation with the Auditor General for Wales.

I'm pleased that the Deputy First Minister has accepted our final three recommendations and has committed to updating the RIA after Stage 2. I welcome the positive approach he has taken in engaging with the committee on this Bill. Thank you very much.

It's a good day for Wales today that this is coming forward, and we as a group will be supporting this Bill in principle. As has been mentioned by other Chairs of committees, there's a lot more to do on this in terms of the financial aspects, but, also, we need to make sure that this Bill now really does hold the feet to the fire of both the Welsh Government and, indeed, those people and businesses who believe they can pollute our land and our waters.

It's a point of national shame, however, that Wales is the last nation in the United Kingdom to have a proper and legislative office for environmental protection, as was highlighted by our colleague Alun Davies MS during previous scrutiny sessions. This Bill was promised in 2018 and here now we are in 2025. As Alun stated, this is a serious political failure, and I agree with him. This now has placed the Senedd and the Bill in a very difficult position. As most of the provisions of this Bill will not come into force until the seventh Senedd, there's a real possibility and chance that it will not achieve its ultimate purpose that every single member of our committee is committed to. We should heed the warning by Dr Viviane Gravey. She said,

'a lot of this Bill is written with the underpinning assumption that Welsh Ministers now and in the future will always care for the environment'—

and therein lies the problem—

'It's a nice view to have, but I think if you're going through the effort of creating a Bill, you need to prepare for a moment when you may have Welsh Ministers who will not care as much about the environment.'

There is real cross-party consensus between many of us here today and, indeed amongst our committee, but there's a real risk, after the elections next year, that there could be, in some way, a Government that—. I suppose I could potentially think of a party like Reform, who have been very, very choice, throwing out lots of things that they're going to do and not do, and it would be such a shame if there was not that kind of cross-party consensus for what we want to ensure is saved today.

Something else that could risk knocking the legs off this legislation was highlighted by Ruth Chambers, who stated,

'the whole point of integration is to bring the environment into all policy making.

'the Bill...limits the integration duty only to environmental policy...Why have a duty to integrate the environment into the environment? It just doesn't make sense. So, I think the scope is problematic'.

As the lead Member for the Welsh Conservatives on this, I intend for us to put some very robust amendments, going forward.

You need to conclude now, please, Janet.

—that we now need to take the nature and climate crises seriously. 'Better late than never', people say. I just hope, on this one, it isn't too little, too late. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you to the Deputy First Minister, and thank you to the Bill team and those who have assisted the committee over recent weeks, and those who provided evidence to us too. This is an important piece of legislation, and I welcome it, and we as a party are supportive of the underpinning principles.

Yes, it's been long awaited, and yes, we have been behind in terms of the environmental governance gap, and that's a cause of concern, but we must now focus on what we have in front of us. Last week, I welcomed stakeholders to a round-table discussion on the main environmental challenges facing our communities and how this Bill could be used to address some of those.

This Bill is ultimately a Bill about power, a Bill that could start to correct the imbalances of power that have existed in our communities for too long—communities that have powered the world with our resources, but have been left disempowered by the legacy of industry, dirty air, contaminated land, polluted rivers. This Bill, if it's enacted correctly, could finally empower citizens to exercise their rights to an environment that's clean, a natural world that's flourishing, through a body that's there to work for them. That is the goal. That's what we will be pushing for, and I'd like to put on record my thanks to Wales Environment Link, the Green Alliance, RSPB, WWF, Friends of the Earth Cymru, all those groups who are seeking to make this Bill better. I look forward to working with them as the Bill progresses.

Now, I'll focus some remarks on what improvements need to be made in this Bill. Some of them have already been outlined, of course, by the Deputy First Minister this afternoon, and, again, having already set out my support for its principles. Now, in setting out its own principles, the biggest change we need to see in the Bill in terms of the first Part is to ensure that the duty on Welsh Ministers applies to all policy, not just environmental policy, otherwise we risk going into silos. Now, I do welcome some of the wording that I heard from the Deputy First Minister on this.

And then to turn to the OEGW itself, it must be independent of Government. That has to be made explicit. On funding, it needs sufficient money. Now, it's curious, and the Finance Committee, I know, had queried the rationale for basing OEGW costs on the Scottish model. The body is projected to get more than £300,000 less than the Scottish body when the OEGW will have a wider remit. I'd like to understand more about that, please.

I talked about power. The extent to which individual citizens in Wales or non-governmental organisations will have the power to task this body with doing something—to investigate, or right a wrong—is implicit, not explicit. That, again, needs to change if we truly wish to empower people. Why can't Welsh citizens have the same explicit rights as citizens in neighbouring countries? Again, there was some wording on this in what the Deputy First Minister said, and I'd be keen to know how far the changes will be going in that way.

There's the question of those public authorities in reserved areas—like the Crown Estate, Network Rail and the Ministry of Justice—working in devolved areas in Wales. Will they fall under the OEGW's remit? Again, it isn't clear. I realise that is a competence issue, but surely we should be inserting powers for future Governments to update this list as and when further powers come to this place.

I strongly support the principles of this Bill, and I hope that the Senedd will support them here today. I think it's absolutely crucial that we have a strong Bill in Wales, showing our commitment to the environment, to biodiversity, and to nature in Wales. I'm pleased to have been on the climate change committee that has been scrutinising the Bill throughout Stage 1. I think the committee's recommendations are very important and very strong.

I know that the Cabinet Secretary has been very receptive, and has been listening very carefully to the committee and also to all the excellent organisations that we have here in Wales who are advocating for the environment. His introduction to the debate was very encouraging, and I could see that he is going along with many of the recommendations that we have made in the committee. Obviously, we'll have to wait to see the formal Government response, but, as I say, it sounds very promising.

Yesterday, I was also very pleased to meet with a number of organisations, like Delyth has met—the Green Alliance, the RSPB, Wales Environment Link and Plantlife—where we discussed the Bill. They said how much they welcome the Bill, and were very enthusiastic about it. But they did hope it would be strengthened in certain ways, and the Cabinet Secretary has actually addressed quite a few of those issues in his introduction. He's covered the committee's recommendation, supported by the different organisations, that the duty placed on Welsh Ministers should cover all policy, and not just that which specifically covers the environment, which was our recommendation 2. I believe he did say in his introduction that that is something he would go along with. Also, our recommendation 12, that the new oversight body should be independent, should be protected, given the correct resources and funding to do its job correctly—recommendation 15.

The environmental agencies also stressed, I think as Delyth has already said, that there should be the right for the public and organisations to make representations to the OEGW if they felt that there is a failure to comply with an environmental law, which was our recommendation 21. And finally, there should be short-term as well as long-term targets, and the deadline for enactment should be brought forward. So, I think that was very encouraging, what he said in the beginning. And also, the RSPB were keen to stress that they welcome 'halt and reverse', but they think that 'restore' should be included. And I noticed he did specifically use the word 'restore' in his introduction.

One of the reasons that I support this Bill very strongly is that I am the Senedd species champion for the waxcaps. We know that, when waxcaps flourish, it's a good sign that biodiversity is going well. Every autumn, I've visited a waxcap spot around Cardiff. Last year, I went to Lisvane reservoir, and the year before I went to Cathays cemetery, which was absolutely exciting and riveting to find these absolutely beautiful waxcaps, which I had not even known were there until they were pointed out to me. I've been with Plantlife Cymru every year.

It's great to hear that there is so much consensus across the Chamber for this, and it's absolutely right that that should be the case. I, too, have had a great deal of correspondence from constituents, and so I think that it is absolutely clear that many people are absolutely passionate about nature and the environment and are very concerned about its current state. With one in six species at risk of extinction in Wales, and Cardiff being one of the most at-risk cities in terms of flooding, we absolutely need to take action now to reverse the problems that we are facing.

One of the things that this Bill needs to do is to ensure that rivers and floodplains are protected from development, because otherwise they will be in breach of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 and we'll just be getting future people to clear up the mess created when we build in the wrong places.

I agree with other people that these environmental principles must apply to all policy, because it's no use simply focusing on the environment, you have to focus on every aspect of public policy, and that intersectionality is absolutely vital. We need more jellyfish eaters, because it will benefit tourism, and we definitely also need to ban plastic from vegetable contamination, because of our health—see Rhys ab Owen's proposal last week.

Many correspondents have said that it's vital that the office of environmental governance has to be completely independent, and that needs to be enshrined in the Bill. We need to futureproof this, as Janet Finch-Saunders said. So, I would like to see a greater role for the Senedd in appointing board members so that we aren't getting a future Government that wants to row back on the environment appointing people who will do nothing.

I also think it's really important that, given the level of interest from people across Wales, the public is able to make representations to the office of environmental governance if they think that organisations are not adhering to the law, because this office can't be everywhere all of the time. Everybody—whether they're litter pickers or people who want to go swimming in unpolluted water—has a role to play in this. We really do need to get the energy and the commitment of citizens involved in improving our current environment.

I think the targets really need to be smart. We can't have feeble targets and we need to set some targets much more quickly than in 2029. We need short-term targets to deal with immediate issues and we need really clear targets. I heard what other people were saying about 2030. We need to be ambitious in this and we need to ensure that the targets deliver a reverse, ensuring that we are restoring nature across all areas. We can't just leave it to some far-flung rewilding project, which most people will never get to see, though they have an important role as well. We want everybody in Wales to be able to enjoy nature and its wonder.

This is yet another Bill made necessary by Brexit and the governance gap that opened when the oversight of the European Commission and the courts fell away. But nature can't wait any longer. Like Janet said earlier, I am deeply worried about the current political uncertainty. We've often seen that those parties who drove Brexit, and who still dismiss the urgency of the nature and climate emergencies, are willing to delay or dilute action. We cannot allow this to happen in Wales.

This Bill must pass before the end of the Senedd term, and it must include a clear, legally binding timetable for implementation. Only then can we ensure that the momentum this Welsh Labour Government has built on improving the environment is not lost.

Those who ignore nature fail to see that it underpins everything: our environment, our economy, and our well-being. It's a delicate balance, and if we take it for granted, we do so at our peril. That's why this legislation must set out binding short and long-term targets in law. Successive governments must be held to account for delivering urgent action, and that means sustained investment, too. I believe this was addressed in the introduction by the Cabinet Secretary. He's nodding his head—that's good.

The Welsh Government has already shown real commitment, and through the Nature Networks programme, it has invested significantly in restoring habitats and creating local nature partnerships that are doing outstanding work with communities across Wales. The Local Places for Nature scheme has created more than 4,000 spaces for nature and community growing, supported by around 20,000 volunteers. These projects don't just restore our environment, they transform people's lives through the mental and physical well-being that they bring.

We now have more than 2,400 pollinator sites, 700 community orchards, and 86 therapeutic gardens. We've also seen funding for wildlife corridors, local nature sites, and managing roadside verges to support biodiversity. Near St Asaph, for example, because of a change in the verge management, biodiversity has increased by 300 per cent, and that's in just four years. That's what progress looks like, and it must continue.

We need to connect people to nature so that they actually value and understand it, like Julie and her waxcaps. That has made a difference. We must also be clear about what we mean by 'environment'. Too often, the word is interpreted narrowly, focusing on the built environment, climate change, or carbon targets, leaving nature out of the picture. Environmental principles must inform all policy across every department, and they must explicitly include biodiversity.

We've got to do more than simply pass declaratory legislation, because declaratory legislation doesn't have any bite, and this is a challenge I've got to Government on this. I do agree with the general principles of this Bill and I will vote for it. However, I want to challenge the consensus that we have here, because all too often the vanity of politicians takes over, and we believe that we can change things quite fundamentally and usually outside our control simply by passing laws on these matters. Now, the Government is asking us to take this legislation through prior to dissolution, and I've no doubt that we will do so. But I remember when this was important and an emergency back in 2018, and when the Government first suggested this legislation, and the Minister, the Deputy First Minister, was able to offer no credible explanation at all as to why it's taken seven years to bring forward this legislation.

Now, if this was a one-off, and this was just simply one of those things, I'd be quite content to listen to what the Government has to say. However, the LJC committee has in the last six months, or in the last year or so, also heard Ministers explaining why public health legislation, which I remember was first introduced by Mark Drakeford when he was a health Minister back in the 2011 Senedd—. It didn't get through before dissolution, and we all remember that in 2016. It was reintroduced, then, after the election, and was actually given life through statutory instruments in the last six months and in the last year or so. Now, why has it taken a decade for the Government to do that? We need a decent explanation from Government as to why powers are provided by this place, but they're not delivered by Government. And we saw the same thing with the renting homes legislation. I remember sitting on that committee, that Bill committee; it was Lesley Griffiths who stood in front of us at the time prior to dissolution in 2016. We were told then, and we voted for it, that we needed to improve the lives of renters in Wales. That was only given life in the last few years, in the last two years or so. So, why is it that we are asked to vote for this legislation time and time again, but the Government isn't able to deliver the consequences of this law and is not able to deliver the policy? And I believe this is something that should require a parliamentary inquiry. We should review why and how the Government is not simply legislating but delivering policy, because there are real failures here. There are real failures of parliamentary and governmental process here. And I believe that this is something all of us, across the whole of this Chamber, should take an interest in and should review. So, I think there's an explanation required from the Deputy First Minister as to why this has taken so long. We offered him a number of opportunities to explain this at LJC, and, I'm afraid to say, he didn't accept any of them. So, the buck stops with you, I'm afraid, Deputy First Minister. We do need and deserve, and this Parliament deserves, an explanation.

You need to conclude now, please, Alun.

—and that create burdensome and cumbersome demands on public bodies, which they themselves are unable to deliver, and then what we've got is no change in the reality of what we see in front of us. So, then, our children and grandchildren will pass another Act to do exactly the same as what we are doing today. So, I think we need a real hard, tough conversation on these matters, and that is my challenge to the Government.

I call the Deputy First Minister to reply to the debate.

Thank you to everyone. I welcome very much all of the comments that Members have made today, and the spirit in which they were made. You too, Alun. [Laughter.]

I've explained today why this Bill is vital to safeguard and enrich the environment.

Let me just turn, Dirprwy Lywydd—I'm going to try and go through very, very quickly, with your indulgence here some of the comments. First of all, Llyr, we will get the full response to yourselves and the LJC recommendations very shortly. But I hope my introductory remarks, which I would suggest are slightly unusual at a general principles debate, going into the detail I have, show the extent to which we're responding both to the committee's recommendations, but also to stakeholders. And one of the signal marks of the way we've brought this Bill forward is intense stakeholder engagement, minute by minute, day by day, to see where we can make improvements.

You mentioned specific things here. The independence of OEGW I touched on in the opening remarks—the urgency. I agree, we can bolt this down in the next stages. And also, as some people have picked up as well, making sure that a future Government cannot unwind this very easily. Future Governments can do whatever they want, of course, but we need to make sure that this legislation is firm enough and clear enough, and is very difficult to unwind, except in the full glare of the Senedd actually allowing it to happen. And I say now, 'Beware, beware.'

The special regard you mentioned—we'll debate this on the committee, but the special regard is in there for a purpose, as we outlined previously. It is stronger than a simple 'regard to'. Section 6, as I mentioned in my outline remarks—we can strengthen it. We can strengthen independence, we can strengthen target setting. A sunrise clause: interesting, because I think I can explain when we get into committee that, effectively, that is what we are delivering and what we can do here, and we can craft that.

Mike, similarly, in terms of meaningful scrutiny, I think you'll have seen in some of my opening remarks, but we can happily come back to you in detail—we can strengthen that meaningful scrutiny. And in terms of delivering positive outcomes for nature and biodiversity, both now and when we progress through subsequent stages, be assured that this is evidence-led, expert-led, shaped by stakeholders, and very clear on what's anticipated in terms of outcomes. We will also clarify, by the way, the meaning of 'making policy' as we take this forward through committee and the interpretation of principles and other aspects.

Peredur, thanks for your comments. We'll provide further detailed costings in updated regulatory impact assessments as this progresses. The timing of things such as post-implementation reviews will be determined by the three work streams, and an RIA will accompany the biodiversity targets when they are set in regulations as well. And there are other points you raised, which we'll explore as well.

So, Dirprwy Lywydd, the time that we've given to develop the Bill has made it a better Bill. That includes close work with stakeholders and listening to committee feedback following their scrutiny. This also includes building a genuinely Welsh approach, which is stronger from learning the lessons that we have seen in England, Scotland and Northern Ireland again.

I will write to the committees with a response on every one of the recommendations that they have made and the matters that have been raised by different Members today on the committee reports. I ask Members to approve our motion and to agree the general principles and the financial resolution for the Environment (Principles, Governance and Biodiversity Targets) (Wales) Bill. Thank you very much.

Therefore, the proposal is to agree the motion under item 7. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Sorry, did you object, Laura? I apologise, Laura, I didn't see it. There is an objection, therefore we will now have a vote at the voting time.

Ring the bell.

Ring the bell.

I haven't got that far yet. For Members, can we remind ourselves that we can't vote on the financial agenda until we vote on the original motion?

So, now we've reached voting time.

Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I will proceed directly to voting time.

Does anyone wish to ring the bell? Yes. I need three Members. I've had one, two—three. I've had three Members asking to ring the bell. Ring the bell.

The first vote this evening is on item 7, the general principles of the Environment (Principles, Governance and Biodiversity Targets) (Wales) Bill. I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Huw Irranca-Davies. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 50, no abstentions, one against. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

The next vote is on item 8, the financial resolution in respect of the Bill. I call for a vote on the motion in the name of Huw Irranca-Davies. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 50, no abstentions, one against. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

That brings today's proceedings to a close. Thank you.