Plenary

Item 2 will be the questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, and the first question is from Buffy Williams.

Diolch yn fawr, Buffy Williams. We continue to support families and children across Wales with the cost of living this winter. This includes our new baby bundles scheme, which will help to reduce the financial pressure families face in some of the most deprived areas. I am delighted to hear the Chancellor confirm that the two-child limit will be abolished and will bring relief to over 20,000 families in Wales, including in Rhondda Cynon Taf. And, of course, this is something the Welsh Government called for.

Thank you. As the weather gets colder, we all know many families and older people will hold off putting the heating on for as long as they can. We know loneliness creeps in and, for some, a quick chat with the postman might be the only conversation they have all day. We know that too many children will go home, after their free school meal, to a house with no hot dinner waiting.

Thanks to Welsh Government support, charities and community groups are opening warm hubs across Rhondda, offering a warm space, a hot drink, and sometimes a hot meal. I want to place on record my thanks to the staff and volunteers supporting residents, from the top of Maerdy down to Porth, and from Blaenrhondda to Trehafod. Does the Cabinet Secretary agree it's so important that residents make use of these hubs to save money on their energy bills and to see a friendly face for a few hours?

Thank you very much for that supplementary because it's been made quite clear to us, and on my visits, and indeed with local authorities across Wales, that our funding for safe and warm hubs has provided warm and safe spaces in the community that can provide company and support for people. It's part of an ongoing package of support, including access to information about our discretionary assistance fund and the fuel vouchers scheme, and, in total, we've invested over £4 million in the warm hubs initiative. We know that over 600 warm hubs are being supported by funding across Wales. I think, also, the warm hubs are enabling people to come together to access fresh food and meals together, as well as, as I've said, being able to access information about how they can, together, keep warm this winter and get all their entitlements.

Thank you very much, Altaf Hussain. I've discussed the expansion of His Majesty's Prison Parc with UK Government justice Ministers, and there is ongoing engagement between our officials to examine the implications across devolved areas.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. HMP Parc, in my region, has been beset by problems. Actually 'problems' is too mild a term to use. In the last year, 17 inmates have died—more than at any other UK prison—and the majority of the deaths have been tied to illegal drugs. An unannounced inspection of the prison in January found drugs were widely available, with deliveries to cell windows via drones. Now, the site is to be expanded to house an additional 345 prisoners.

Cabinet Secretary, what steps are the Ministry of Justice taking to stop the use of drones, which not only deliver drugs into the prison, but also put local residents at risk? And have the Ministry of Justice indicated that steps are being taken to combat addiction within the prison population?

Thank you for that very important supplementary. Of course, justice is not yet devolved to Wales, and prisoner and offender management are the responsibility of the UK Government. But I do meet regularly with Lord Timpson, the Minister of State for Prisons, Probation and Reducing Reoffending, and Ian Barrow, the chief executive of His Majesty's Prison and Probation Service in Wales. In fact, we visited Parc prison together with the Minister for Mental Health and Well-being, who obviously is very engaged because of her responsibility for substance misuse. In April, the HM Inspectorate of Prisons report on Parc noted that new leadership has brought significant changes and said it had a comprehensive improvement plan, including all of the inspector's recommendations. We remain engaged with HMPPS to monitor progress.

I have to say, I am completely shocked by much of the reporting on the expansion of Parc. We've seen a number of outlets talk about how opposition is based on increased traffic locally because of visitations and stuff like that. I think actually there are far more serious concerns to have around the expansion of Parc that go beyond simply more traffic in the local area. I don't need to tell Members in this Chamber about the poor, incredibly disgusting track record of Parc. Altaf has already pointed to it in his question.

Now, just imagine for a moment being a family member whose loved one has gone into Parc, and then you're stood there wondering as to whether or not your loved one is going to get out of that facility altogether. Now, I'm not trying to be an alarmist here, but this point cannot go unsaid. So, Cabinet Secretary, given everything we now know about the serious and persistent failures in prison safety and welfare at Parc, can you tell us what concrete actions will be taken and what assurances, if any, the Welsh Government has received that an expansion won't simply just magnify those risks? I would actually say that this needs to be stopped in its tracks now, not on the basis of increased traffic, but on the poor track record of Parc, on the fact that we have a prison system in Bridgend that has basically created a culture where inmates have committed suicide, self-harm and abused drugs. That is the basis that this should be stopped on. It should be taken out of the hands of G4S altogether and back into the hands of the state.

Thank you very much, Luke, for also adding that really important wider dimension, because it is a prison in the community. We do work very closely with HMPPS on those areas where we have responsibility. Obviously, we've mentioned the important responsibility in terms of health, substance misuse, but also housing and social care. We work to help mitigate the risk of future harm to staff and prisoners. Also, these questions are really important for me to take back to my discussions, as we look at the implications of this latest announcement for communities in Wales, recognising, of course, that this is an issue in terms of prison capacity—a long-standing issue in terms of prison capacity—which was inherited from the former Conservative Government, which did leave the justice and prison system in a very difficult place.

But I would say that what has been helpful, just in terms of the report from HMIP in April of this year, is that there is some positive practice: a collaboration with the University of Bath to provide innovative drug detection technology; and Parc Tank, an initiative for prisoners due to be released with business ideas for investment. And there is a sign of improvement under the new leadership. The new director has implemented a plan to tackle basic failings and prevent further deaths. But your points, I think, will help form the agenda for my next meeting in terms of Parc prison. So, thank you for raising this.

Last night, I sponsored an event here in the Senedd about miscarriages of justice, which included John Actie and Michael O'Brien, two victims, with Mike spending over 11 years in prison for a crime he didn't commit. We have known, Trefnydd, since 2019 that Wales has the highest incarceration rate per head in western Europe. Now, figures published in the prison fact file of Dr Rob Jones from this month show that that remains the case. Of course, I accept that justice is reserved, but many of the levers to stop people committing crimes are devolved to this place. With Berwyn, we already have the largest prison in the UK. With this expansion, it will make Parc one of the largest prisons in the UK. And as Altaf and Luke have eloquently said, we are well aware of the terrible record of Parc prison. Why does Wales still top that terrible league, Trefnydd? And do you agree with me that expanding Parc prison certainly isn't the answer? Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you, Rhys ab Owen. I'm meeting Dr Robert Jones shortly to discuss his fact file. And also, I have sent the fact file to Lord Timpson, as I did last year for Robert Jones's fact file. I think it is important that we recognise that we need this justice data, and it needs to be clearly disaggregated, which was one of the most important calls from the Thomas commission. We need accessible information so that we can see how the justice system is working in Wales, and so that people can see how the justice system is working where they live. We must then progress our policy development on the devolution of justice in Wales, as we address the here-and-now operational issues and concerns that have been raised about Parc prison.

Questions now from the party spokespeople, and first the Welsh Conservatives' spokesperson, Altaf Hussain.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Cabinet Secretary, today is National Energy Action's Fuel Poverty Awareness Day. It comes as six in 10 adults in Wales have indicated that they are worried about energy costs this winter, increasing to 73 per cent for parents with children under 16. Fittingly, this year's awareness day is focused on children living in poverty, living in cold, damp homes and in fuel poverty. Evidence shows that living in a cold home can affect academic attainment and people are more likely to develop lifelong respiratory issues. Cabinet Secretary, will you commit today to implement measures to protect Welsh children from the impact of fuel poverty?

Thank you for that question, Altaf Hussain. I'm aware—and of course this was raised yesterday—of the National Energy Action event today. In terms of the ways in which we can support children and families in poverty, you’ll know that we have a clear commitment to this in terms of our fuel poverty strategy. I'm sure that you do, and I hope very much that you will, welcome the fact that the Chancellor has confirmed in the budget statement that the two-child limit will be removed. Welsh Government have consistently urged the UK Government to consider its removal, and we're pleased that that's now being listened to. It will bring relief to over 20,000 families in Wales. And that's crucial in terms of all of the burdens and costs, in terms of the cost of living, on families, and particularly supporting children. In fact, the removal of the two-child limit will reduce child poverty in Wales by 3 to 4 per cent, and this is something that has been called for, certainly in terms of the Welsh Government and all of those organisations that are supporting children. But it is clear also that we can support families through the support that we give through Nest, the Warm Homes scheme, because it is, as you say, about how we can make sure that that investment means that we can bring homes up in terms of energy efficiency, and also the retrofit programme as well.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Of course, the support you have so far committed to tackling fuel poverty is woefully inadequate. The Welsh Government's Warm Homes scheme, which stakeholders deem woefully inadequate, has seen a real-terms cut in the draft budget. The biggest help you can give to Welsh children is to state that you will use all the consequentials from the UK Government's Warm Homes plan towards helping to cut bills, tackle fuel poverty and making homes greener in Wales. Will you mark Fuel Poverty Awareness Day by making these commitments?

Again, I haven't heard from you, Altaf Hussain, that you welcome the most major announcement today in terms of the scrapping of the two-child benefit cap, which will bring 20,000 families in Wales out of poverty. Of course, that will mean that it will support them in terms of the costs that they have in terms of energy. We will look carefully—it's just coming through, of course—at the Chancellor's statement in terms of opportunities for us to support families and households. But also, I think it's important to look at this intergenerationally as well in terms of the fact that we've got now the warm home discount and the winter fuel payment as well, being paid by the UK Government. But it is important that we recognise what we have been doing in Wales in terms of tackling fuel poverty. Many families have benefited from our Fuel Bank Foundation grant aid, which of course helps people on prepayment meters and also helps people off-grid. This is direct access to support for families, which, of course, will support children as well.

Diolch, Cabinet Secretary. Although National Energy Action have decided to focus upon the impact of fuel poverty on children for this year's awareness day, the other group hugely impacted are the over-65s. Yesterday, the Older People's Commissioner for Wales published her latest report on older people and poverty in Wales. The commissioner lays bare the scale and impact of poverty amongst older people, highlighting that one in five older people in Wales has had to go without heating, while a quarter skipped meals or ate less. According to the commissioner, this contributes to a significantly higher mortality rate among older people, as well as huge avoidable costs to the NHS, estimated to be over £40 million a year. This is way more than the Welsh Government spends on tackling fuel poverty across all age groups. Cabinet Secretary, do you agree with the older people's commissioner, and will you adopt her recommendations? Thank you.

I very much welcome the older people's commissioner's report as well. I met with the older people's commissioner very recently, and, indeed, with older people as well, looking at the all-important issues of digital inclusion for older people. These are challenging times for many older people in Wales, and we do everything that we can to support older people. I've already mentioned the investment that we are continuing to make into our safe and warm hubs this winter, which are particularly important for older people, enabling them to get out and to meet other people and break down isolation. Also, we've put, as I said, over £7 million of funding into the Fuel Bank Foundation, with that fuel voucher and heat fund scheme in Wales.

I think it is important that we see again the investment in Warm Homes Nest of £30 million a year. It's going to help low-income households, and people can access free expert energy advice by ringing the Nest helpline. It is important that we work closely as well with the UK Government, to make sure that everyone takes up the entitlements that they should, and that includes pension credit. That's something that I've been working with the older people's commissioner on. This is something where we would guide people to our 'Claim what's yours' webpages, so that they can see eligibility for pension credit. But also, the UK Government will be spending over £30 billion more over this Parliament as well. Those are our efforts to support people, particularly older people, in terms of that commissioner's report.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Sioned Williams.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Plaid Cymru has long campaigned for the abolition of the two-child limit, and we welcome today's announcement that the UK Government will finally scrap it—although in our view, this decision is shamefully overdue. Welsh Labour once supported that position, yet after the general election, there was initially a deafening silence. Here in the Senedd, Labour Members even voted against Plaid Cymru amendments calling for its removal. Those Labour backbench MPs who are guided more by principle than by polling and rebelled against the continuation of Tory welfare policies were punished by Keir Starmer. When this Welsh Government scrapped child poverty targets in 2016, one reason given was the impact of the two-child limit. That excuse no longer stands. Cabinet Secretary, with the limit gone, will you now commit to reinstating clear child poverty targets to ensure Wales tackles child poverty in the most effective way possible?

Thank you very much, Sioned Williams, for that question. I can only say again that it is a day when we must celebrate the influence of not only the Welsh Labour Government but also this side of the Senedd, I believe, in calling for the abolition of the two-child limit. We've called for it as a Government, and consistently urged the previous Conservative UK Government to remove the two-child limit. It is important to say for the record that over 20,000 families in Wales who have been denied financial support from the UK benefits system can now have that access to that finance that will help their day-to-day living costs. A key objective of our child poverty strategy is to maximise incomes. That's the first objective that we have. This will assist with this as well, reducing child poverty by between 3 per cent and 4 per cent.

It is important that we look at this in terms of not just the influence that we've had on this, but in terms of the development and the progress of our child poverty strategy, which does have very ambitious objectives and priorities and a very clear monitoring framework in terms of how we monitor how the impact of our strategy is making a difference. This is something where I look forward to coming to the Senedd very shortly with my update for scrutiny and for consideration and debate in terms of the impacts of our powers, our responsibilities and levers, in terms of tackling child poverty, but also recognising the way in which social security has such an impact on poverty and has made a difference.

We'll wait to see if that update includes the introduction of targets. As you say, this will have a welcome impact, a reduction of 3 per cent to 4 per cent on child poverty levels in Wales, but we know there's a long way to go when we know that we are looking at nearly 30 per cent of children in Wales in poverty. Having those targets would drive that progress. So many of those who campaigned for the scrapping of the two-child limit here in Wales, anti-poverty campaigners, have also said that they really think that that child poverty strategy of the Welsh Government needs targets.

While the scrapping of the two-child limit has been welcomed, there is still concern amongst anti-poverty campaigners about the apparent lack of change to the benefit cap, another Tory policy that remains in place. The cap creates a real risk that some families, who in theory would gain from the abolition of the two-child limit, could lose additional money due to the benefit cap. Cabinet Secretary, in your discussions with the UK Government around child poverty strategies across the UK—I know you're a part of those discussions—will you be stating that they also need to review the overall benefit cap? What assessment have you made of how this will continue to impact levels of child poverty in Wales?

Thank you for that question. I met only last week the End Child Poverty reference group in Wales, which I'm sure you will know, and have engaged with all those organisations on the front line of ending child poverty, which must be an absolute priority for all Governments at all levels—UK Government, particularly in relation to tax and benefits, and we've seen that welcome news today, but also using all our levers that we have to our fullest extent, and working with local government on our Welsh benefits charter as well.

Just to comment again on your question about targets, our current targets for tackling poverty and improving outcomes, of course, are set out in our programme for government and form part of our national milestones, and we do report annually on our progress. I will be, of course, reporting on this with my child poverty progress report. I think one of the important parts of that, when I publish it, will be a report that we've done on lived experience to see what really makes a difference—what works in terms of our responsibilities, what impacts we are making that are positive, and where we need to do more.

But I do want to just, if you bear with me, say that there was one other really important announcement today, which I'm sure that you will welcome, namely that the Chancellor is removing the dehumanising and cruel rape clause from the two-child benefit cap arrangements.

I certainly welcome that. On the need for specific child poverty targets, of course, those arguments have been well rehearsed, but we will wait to see what your statement brings to us shortly.

As we've heard, it's Fuel Poverty Awareness Day and 25 per cent of Welsh households are in fuel poverty. The Equality and Social Justice Committee has concluded in more than one report that the Welsh Government's level of investment in the Warm Homes programme is nowhere near the level required. When we asked you about commitments in the draft budget, you said:

'Let's just also think about the Warm Homes programme in terms of the fact that it's not the only grant funding available for households....the GB-wide schemes, for example ECO Flex, are available to every local authority in Wales.'

While you invest £30 million in the Warm Homes programme, Welsh local authorities have leveraged between £70 million and £100 million through the ECO scheme. What impact will the fact that the Chancellor has now scrapped the ECO scheme have on the Welsh Government's efforts to ensure the houses of people in fuel poverty in Wales are warmer and more efficient?

I welcome that question. Of course, the news of that change is just coming through. We will look at this very carefully and be able to respond, and I'm sure also engaging with our local authorities as well. It is important that we put on the record today as well that up until the end of March 2024, we've invested more than £479 million to improve home energy efficiency through the Warm Homes programme, and over 82,000 households have benefited from measures in their homes.

I've also mentioned the other programmes that we have, like the partnership with the Fuel Bank Foundation—the £7.1 million funding. This is a Wales scheme that we have in partnership, and it has helped a lot of eligible households that prepay for their fuel and are at risk of disconnection. But we will look at the impact, of course, of that change that's just been announced in the budget today.

Diolch yn fawr, Sioned Williams. We know that some people are more likely to be living in poverty, including disabled people, and we are fully committed to providing the support they need. Since 2022, we've invested over £7 billion in programmes that alleviate financial pressures, maximise income and help keep more money in people’s pockets.

Diolch. The Bevan Foundation's latest 'A snapshot of poverty' report highlights that high levels of hardship continue to be present among a significant proportion of the Welsh population. The report makes clear that some groups are experiencing hardship at much higher rates than others, including disabled people and those with a long-term health condition. Half of people living in poverty in Wales live in a household where there is someone with a disability. Almost a quarter of disabled people, or those who have a health condition that limits them a lot, report that they sometimes, often or always struggle to afford the basics.

We know that affording heating is one of the main areas of pressure, and the recently announced increase in the energy price cap from January means that, on average, a dual-fuel direct debit energy bill will increase to £1,758 per year—the rates, of course, are higher still in Wales, and north Wales is the most expensive region across Britain. Given that we know disabled people are far more likely to be in poverty, they will also spend more on their energy bills. This is disappointing news for many. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to support disabled people living in Wales, especially with energy costs? And what measures announced in today's budget will support disabled people?

Thank you for that question. Indeed, the Bevan Foundation evidence and reports are always so valuable in providing us with the guidance and the direct lived experience of what works, what is most important, what can, particularly in terms of your question, help disabled people. I also just saw recently one of their reports showing, in terms of what the Welsh Government can do with its powers, strong support for the discretionary assistance fund and the single advice fund, and also our council tax reduction scheme. Our Welsh benefits charter is crucial, and it is important to remember that 260,000 low-income households receive support from the council tax reduction scheme, and almost 214,000 pay no council tax at all. But it's crucial that we look at the child poverty strategy and disability as well—this has been mentioned already in terms of tackling fuel poverty—and learn from them how we can support disabled people and families in terms of tackling child poverty.

But I hope that you will recognise that this is something where, again, welfare is not devolved to Wales, but we can make a difference by ensuring that people maximise their incomes through the 'Claim what's yours' benefit take-up campaign. I look forward next week to making a statement on international day for the rights of disabled people, where we can look at the ways forward in terms of our disabled people's rights plan.

Diolch yn fawr, Gareth Davies. Local authorities are legally required to have a local toilets strategy. The Welsh Government has provided comprehensive statutory guidance to support this requirement. Local authorities are wholly responsible for decisions on whether they provide public conveniences and how they are managed.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. The planned closure of public toilets in Denbigh and Dyserth in my constituency, following a Denbighshire County Council cabinet decision last week, raises serious concerns about the impact on some of the most vulnerable people in our communities. Denbighshire County Council itself acknowledges that older people and people with disabilities rely disproportionately on these facilities, and many respondents to their recent public consultation were over-65s or had a long-term condition. Older people may be less willing to leave home in confidence if they can't rely on a safe, clean and accessible public toilet. As Age Cymru warns, poor provision can reduce their ability to remain active, restricting how often and for how long they are able to leave their homes.

Flintshire County Council is also threatening the closure of many more public toilets in the neighbouring county, mainly in Talacre, Mold and Holywell. Budgets are tight, but the cuts are affecting the most basic services, affecting the oldest and the most vulnerable. The Welsh Government can change this by altering the Public Health (Wales) Act 2017, which requires councils to publish a local toilet strategy, and creating a clause that mandates a minimum number of toilets based on population or demographics. So, does the Cabinet Secretary share my concerns that the loss of public toilets threatens the inclusion and well-being of our most vulnerable, and will she commit to reviewing the Public Health (Wales) Act with a view to including a clause that makes their provision a legal requirement?

Thank you for recognising that local authorities are legally required to have a local toilet strategy, and we've produced strong guidance to local authorities on delivering on that. As far as Denbighshire council is concerned, I understand the Welsh Government awarded £44,000 under the Brilliant Basics scheme to the council to refurbish toilets in Corwen, including a fully accessible dementia-friendly toilet pod. Also, I understand that, under the current round of funding, Denbighshire council's application to install a cashless payment system in their toilets wasn't successful, but that project's been placed on a reserve list, should further funding become available.

And also, I think Denbighshire council has made some progress and taken new opportunities by being awarded £300,000 to establish a number of overnight stay areas for motorhomes, which I'm sure you'll be familiar will be in your county, including facilities to empty waste water and chemical waste.

Diolch. I agree with the points the Member has raised. The importance of public toilets and the need for them is, actually, a basic human right. But the costs have risen to more than just spending a penny these days, and I know that councils are facing very difficult decisions following 14 years of Tory/Conservative austerity. I believe that the Conservatives still want to cut public service funding, going forward, in their budget plans. They also oppose every single method of raising money for them, because we do actually need revenue funding. I know you mentioned capital pots, but we need revenue funding. So, they opposed the tourism levy as well, which would raise money for running public toilets. So, Cabinet Secretary, do you agree with me that one of the credible ways to improve access to these essential facilities via council funding is to continue reversing 14 years of austerity and to properly fund our local authorities and our public services? Thank you.

Diolch yn fawr, Carolyn Thomas. I think it's important to recognise other responsibilities, as well as the Public Health (Wales) Act, which actually brought in the duty in terms of local authorities' public toilet strategy, as the Welsh Government has worked with the UK Government to ensure that stand-alone public toilets in Wales now receive 100 per cent relief from business rates. But I can't agree with you more—we are seeking, and we see in the Chancellor's statement today that we are now reversing 14 years of austerity to properly fund our local authorities. Let's just for a moment recognise that the draft budget for next year provides more than £27 billion for public services and authorities—[Interruption.]

Cabinet Secretary—

—and that's the beginning, of course, of the budget process, not the end, and a lot will change between now and January, when the final budget is published.

I would be grateful if Members allowed the responses to be made in silence, and similarly, when other Members ask questions, allowed the Members to ask their questions as well. Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. The lack of public toilets has significant implications for people's health and, therefore, for the NHS. In the absence of public toilets, people are having to delay or hold in urine for longer than is good for them. This is especially dangerous for older people, people with disabilities, women, carers and those with certain medical conditions, with increased risk of urinary tract infections, pelvic floor dysfunction, and, in severe or chronic cases, back pressure effects on kidneys. And there is an equality implication, as women are more likely to suffer than men. In Fairbourne, the community-run Fairbourne Amenities Trust have ensured that the public toilets there can remain open. The Llandrillo community has done the same, as well as the aforementioned Corwen Town Council project. Will the Cabinet Secretary look at these examples of best practice in order to allow other communities to receive the necessary support to take over and run public toilets as community enterprises? Should she wish, there's an invitation for her to join me to see the Fairbourne Amenities Trust as well.

Diolch yn fawr, Mabon ap Gwynfor. I would very much like to join you on a visit to the trust. Clearly, local authorities are taking the initiative. I've already given some examples from Denbighshire council and Flintshire as well. Just to say finally, of course, there are other sources of funding. The Transforming Towns regeneration programme toilet provision is a dedicated support for town centres, and very much identified within placemaking plans.

Thank you for focusing on the equalities issue, because this also draws attention to changing places for disabled people, and the Public Health (Wales) Act 2017 includes changing places within the definition of 'toilet' in relation to local toilet strategies. That's something where local authorities have got to make that adaptation, particularly to support disabled people.

Thank you, Jenny Rathbone. The Welsh Government is investing in grass-roots voluntary organisations through our £8.6 million third sector support Wales infrastructure funding. This supports organisations and initiatives involving volunteering, funding and good governance, which in turn helps strengthen community resilience and support deprived areas across Wales.

Thank you. I recently sat on a panel to choose Cardiff Third Sector Council's volunteer of the year award. I'm sure that all the nominees were making a valuable contribution to their communities, but I was surprised to see so few applicants from Cardiff's southern arc of deprivation, in particular, not a single nomination from any organisation in Newtown, which is where we were convening. I appreciate that the Welsh Government provides considerable sums of money to the Wales Council for Voluntary Action and to other organisations, big and small. However, reflecting on the inverse care law, based on the pioneering work of Julian Tudor Hart, what attention does the Welsh Government pay to nurturing voluntary sector capacity building where it's most needed in our most deprived communities, where we know that there are citizens struggling in deep poverty and they need that helping hand to allow them to thrive?

Thank you for that important reflection on where and how we are supporting volunteers, particularly perhaps in our most disadvantaged communities. You know that we have published a new approach to volunteering alongside our code of practice for funding the third sector, which is important for those grass-roots and community organisations that are engaging with volunteers across Wales. And the new approach to volunteering actually does particularly ensure that we're engaged with all citizens across Wales.

I just would say that I've seen such fantastic volunteering coming through many of our community policies, which includes our community facilities grant. I would say, in Cardiff, I was very pleased to fund five projects: the Green Squirrel, which I think is a really excellent project; Oasis Cardiff, particularly reaching out with volunteers to our black, Asian and minority ethnic citizens; the Trinity Centre, again, vulnerable individuals; Media Academy Cymru with Cardiff primary schools. These are all, actually, reaching out to some of the more disadvantaged citizens in our community, also in Riverside, and Splott Community Volunteers—there are many examples.

Some of these most deprived areas aren't just in cities or in our towns, they're in our rural areas as well. As a former young farmer myself and a member of Pembrokeshire Young Farmers Club and, indeed, former chairman of Pembrokeshire YFC, I've seen the role of volunteers within the YFC movement and the support that they give to membership-led organisations. Cabinet Secretary, would you be able to confirm that the Welsh Government will continue to support Wales YFC financially, given the role that they play in our rural communities, ensuing that volunteers are there, available to support young people between the ages of 10 and 28 getting an education outside of school and socialising in those deprived areas in our rural communities?

Thank you for that. The young farmers clubs play a vital role and, more importantly, they need to be supported, and indeed they have been by the Welsh Government consistently. In fact, the new approach to volunteering requires that kind of active promotion to ensure that Wales is the volunteering society that we want it to be, and, of course, that includes our rural areas, but it includes the younger generation, diversity and inclusion, and strong leadership. We have substantially funded the voluntary sector through the Volunteering Wales main grants.

Diolch yn fawr, Peter Fox. Financial services is a reserved matter. However, the Welsh Government works closely with the UK Government and key organisations to champion the importance of access to cash and inclusive banking services in Welsh communities.

Thank you for that, Cabinet Secretary. Whilst we know that digital banking is very useful, many people, especially the most vulnerable members of our society, still rely on cash to manage their finances. Sadly, the combination of businesses increasingly going cashless and many rural communities struggling to access bank branches, with an increasing number of bank closures, is resulting in too many people feeling financially excluded. Whilst this may not be devolved, we have a responsibility for those people. In my own constituency, eight banks have closed, and I shockingly found out there have been 1,649 branch closures across Wales since 2022. With this in mind, Cabinet Secretary, what progress has the Welsh Government made in promoting greater community-based banking, such as the hubs, for instance, to ensure that cash continues to be a valid method of payment in Wales?

Thank you for that important question. It very much follows up the Petitions Committee debate and report on a cashless society, which we did respond to. I made the point that cash remains a vital part of our economy, and the Welsh Government does not accept the inevitability of a cashless society. We had that powerful evidence from Mencap Cymru, and I met with them. It is reserved. It's not devolved in terms of responsibilities, but I know you will recognise that, in January 2025, Emma Reynolds, the then economic Secretary to the Treasury, confirmed that shops and service firms would not be compelled to accept cash. So, again, we can revisit our responses to the recommendations from that Petitions Committee and show that we are working, as far as we can, with the UK Government and with the banks. We have a Banking in Welsh Communities event in March next year, and we will put access to cash on the agenda.

Thank you for that question. The Welsh Government is supporting partners to tackle the epidemic of violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence. Through our national strategy, we fund services that support and protect victims, and early intervention and perpetrator programmes to stop domestic abuse.

Thanks for your response, Cabinet Secretary. I found a shocking statistic recently, which is that, on average, two women a week are killed by a current or former partner in England and in Wales. Ending domestic abuse should be a top priority for any Government. Important steps have been taken across the border, including Clare's law, which allows individuals to ask the police if their current or ex-partner has a history of domestic abuse, but there is certainly more that we can all do.

Now, I've been following really closely an important piece of work taken forward by my Scottish Conservative colleague Pam Gosal MSP. She's in the process of bringing forward her Prevention of Domestic Abuse (Scotland) Bill. If passed, this Bill would introduce a register for domestic abusers, meaning offenders would have to keep the police informed of their address and passport details. It would also include mandatory assessments for rehabilitation, data collection duties and domestic abuse education in schools. Cabinet Secretary, if you haven't already, will you please take a look at Pam Gosal's Bill and see if there are any measures that can certainly be introduced here in Wales? Thank you very much.

Diolch yn fawr, Natasha Asghar. I certainly will be looking at that Bill to see how it aligns with our Violence against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act 2015, which of course has its tenth anniversary, and look to see if there are ways in which there is anything that we can learn from that. I hope also that you will be sharing with your colleague in Scotland the work that we're doing, and perhaps share our annual report on progress made against the six objectives of our violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence strategy.

Finally, question 8, Llyr Gruffydd.

Diolch yn fawr, Llyr. We continually review our interventions to better support households in need. For example, we work with the Fuel Bank Foundation to regularly review their support offering. On Nest, we introduced a crisis route, following stakeholder feedback, and have commissioned an external evaluation to inform any further refinements to the scheme.

I'm particularly concerned about the fact that the current fuel poverty schemes don't adequately address the unique challenges faced by rural and off-grid households. Your own policy statement for the new Warm Homes programme explicitly acknowledges that off-grid and rural homes must be better targeted with the scheme, but we know that the Equality and Social Justice Committee has previously highlighted in the Senedd the lack of local contractors and skilled workforce in rural areas, saying that that limits the accessibility and reach of energy efficiency measures for off-grid properties.

Now, as we've heard already today, 25 per cent of all Welsh households are now in fuel poverty, and we know that many of those worst affected are those living in those isolated and off-grid homes. A recent report warns that, at the current pace, it could take until the year 2160 to retrofit all fuel-poor homes, which is of course wholly unacceptable. So, given these stark warnings, what specific measurable steps will you take to prioritise off-grid housing in the Warm Homes programme, making sure that contractors and grant providers extend their reach into rural Wales? Will you outline what you will do to accelerate delivery so that these communities aren’t left waiting decades for what they deserve?

Thank you very much. Warm Homes Nest is very aware of the needs of home owners in rural areas, particularly living in off-grid areas, because rural households are more likely to be in fuel poverty. Often, that’s the case. The Warm Homes Nest programme is designed to have a positive impact on the lives of rural people and also to deliver efficiency upgrades as well. I have commented already on the Fuel Bank Foundation and about the access to grants for rural off-grid homes, but also I would like to say that the discretionary assistance fund, in the winter months of November 2024 to February 2025, provided £92,355 for off-grid oil and gas applications. This again is something where I would hope that colleagues, particularly in rural Wales, can raise awareness both of the Fuel Bank Foundation and the discretionary assistance fund, because it is often the payment that they need to be able to pay their bills, and that access to support from DAF and Fuel Bank Foundation is there.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

Item 3 today is questions to the Senedd Commission, and question 1 will be answered by the Llywydd. Joel James.

The Senedd Commission news team works with journalists in Wales and beyond on a daily basis to ensure accurate reporting of Senedd business. This is achieved in a number of different ways, including media releases to promote and explain committee reports, weekly briefing notes on upcoming Senedd business and technical briefings ahead of high-profile issues. The team also closely monitors news coverage of all issues relating to the Senedd, using media monitoring software, and will seek to clarify inaccuracies with journalists when they do arise.

Thank you, Llywydd. The recent 'Our BBC, Our Future' questionnaire showed that only 43 per cent of people believe that the BBC is independent of the Government of the day, dropping to 40 per cent amongst respondents in Wales. Concerns of impartiality and bias were the top issues for those aged 18 to 54, but this is not a new issue. A 2023 YouGov poll found that just 44 per cent considered the BBC either to be 'trustworthy' or 'very trustworthy'. I am sure you have been following the reports we have all seen by the BBC's Panorama and Newsnight programmes about how the corporation deliberately doctored a speech made by the US President to deliberately mislead the British public about his role in the Capitol riots.

I think this should deeply concern all of us. We live in an age where many struggle to discern truth from opinion, and even truth from lies. Our national broadcaster should be a beacon of impartiality and reliability. Is the Commission prepared to undertake an independent review, in the same way as it did with GB News, to assess the output of the BBC in relation to its reporting of Welsh parliamentary business, and what steps will it take if any reporting has been found to be misleading? Thank you.

I think that, first of all, I need to draw Members' attention to my declaration of interest on my register of interest. The BBC is very much the subject of news coverage and public discussion at this point. I would suggest that, to undertake the vast scope of work that the Member has just outlined, the Commission would require a very big budget increase. I remember that the Member probably did not vote for the budget we already have, let alone a budget increase of the magnitude that a Commission, whether it is this one or the next one, would require to undertake the work that the Member has outlined. I would also suggest, when there are questions around policy and broadcasting policy, that those questions are most properly addressed to Government Ministers and not to me.

Question 2 and 3 will be answered by Joyce Watson. Question 2, Jenny Rathbone.

Thank you for your question, Jenny. British Sign Language interpretation is made available at the moment for First Minister’s questions each Tuesday. Since the summer, a number of committee scrutiny sessions of the Member's Bill on BSL have also carried live interpretation. This has provided us with valuable insight about the implications of extending the service in the seventh Senedd.

The service is provided to the Senedd through the broadcasting services contract at a fixed annual cost. The service is also available upon request for other items of business in Plenary or committee meetings, with each request subject to an additional charge. The current annual cost of providing BSL interpretation for First Minister’s questions is approximately £19,000.

Thank you, Joyce Watson. I don't want to sound like a broken record here, but we know that there are only 54 BSL interpreters in Wales. There was a fantastic initiative run from 2006 to 2008, I think initiated by the current Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice. That generated 30 extra BSL interpreters. The reason I am pressing this point is because this is not something we are going to be able to magic up overnight. Therefore, if, as a Senedd, we are going to collectively pass this BSL Bill—we'll have to wait and see on that—but if we are, we then are raising expectations that we will be able to provide more interpretation, so more people can share what is going on in their Senedd. The problem is, if we don't create more interpreters, we are going to be competing with health services, education services and other essential emergency interpretation that people need to get whatever they are entitled to. I'm trying to prompt the Commission to think ahead, rather than, 'Oops, we have a problem.'

Thank you for that, and I don't think we're just thinking, 'Oops, we have a problem.' We recognise the scale. You've asked me previously on this and I've answered previously as well. You're right to say there are limited numbers. Those numbers reduce even further if you're talking about bilingual interpretation that will be required as well. The current annual cost, as I said, is £19,000. The training of interpreters will take a long time. We are committed to try and do some of that here, but ultimately it's a budgetary question as well as a training question. The Llywydd has already said we have significant budget pressures. We know that that budget pressure wasn't supported by the Conservatives here, yet this Bill has been brought through by one of their own, which is somewhat disappointing.

You can be assured, Jenny, that we are live to this. The time frame is critical, as you have recognised, as I'm sure the Member who is bringing this Bill forward is also aware of. But there are many other things, apart from just training people. It's about the space that we also have for those individuals to work in at the moment. We have a whole project going forward that's looking at the detail of the upgrades to the studio where the interpreters will be filmed. They will need additional equipment and perhaps some structural changes as well. So, it isn't simply just about training the individuals, it's about giving them the capacity to carry out their work. Also, you need to make sure that there is a seamless swap-over of interpreters to allow that in simultaneous meetings. So, we are in the process of compiling those costs, and there will be a proposal submitted for evaluation and prioritisation in the new financial year.

So, it is, as I said the last time I answered a question like this, demanding work. So, there's only so long that an interpreter can work, and, of course, that will require more than one interpreter to be available for each single session. But those costs will come in the new financial year, and also, incorporated within that, will be the structural changes that will be needed for those people to work under as well. But I do thank you for your question, and you're absolutely right to keep this alive.

Again, I thank you for that question. The Commission is committed to ensuring all documents supporting Senedd business are accessible to Members, staff and the public. Accessibility standards are embedded in committee outputs, with reports produced using accessible templates and guidance. Guidance is provided to staff on accessible document production, and third parties are encouraged to submit accessible content. The Commission provides online guides to clarify how witnesses and contributors can request accessible formats or adjustments, ensuring full participation in Senedd proceedings. The next step is to improve accessibility, including reviewing and updating guidance, refreshing staff training, and implementing feedback mechanisms that will ensure all documents consistently meet the accessibility standard.

Diolch. I've received concerns from the learning disabled community that more needs to be done by the Commission to accommodate and promote the need for easy-read documents. As well as the timescales for producing and presenting reports and minutes, and taking account of the time it does so, for example, by the Table Office, it's also important that people with a learning disability should have access to good-quality easy-read versions of documents from the Commission. Some quality issues with the easy-read versions that have been produced for the Welsh Youth Parliament, for example, have been brought to my attention, especially the Welsh easy-read. The photosymbols that contain text are not translated, so appear with English text in the Welsh versions. This is presumably because the photosymbols tool does not offer Welsh versions. However, photosymbols can be edited to produce Welsh versions. So, will the Commission consult with learning disability groups on this matter, so that people with a learning disability can have consistent access to good-quality accessible information?

Absolutely, and I'm really disappointed to hear what you've just said. As you say, things can be formatted, they can be changed. I'm sure somehow—or I would like to think somehow—it's an oversight on that. It's been raised here today, quite rightly, it's on public record, to make sure that action is taken in the way that you have just asked, and I absolutely support that.

The Commission has recently updated accessibility statements for the website, and it's updating those relating to systems used for other public-facing sites. We are striving for the web content accessibility guidelines AA compliance—that's the accessibility benchmark for public sector bodies. I would hope that what you've raised today falls within those guidelines and that we make sure, absolutely, that we don't have what seems to be a dual system and an unfairness that has crept into what were probably very good intentions, but the outcomes are not good enough. So, I will keep you updated. I thank you for bringing it to our attention, and I'm sure everybody else will be pleased it's been brought to our attention, because it wouldn't have been an intentional outcome. Thank you.

I thank the Llywydd and Joyce Watson.

Item 4 is the topical questions. There is just one question today, and that will be from Mabon ap Gwynfor.

The latest NHS performance official statistics were postponed due to data quality issues affecting referral-to-treatment waiting list data at Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board. A partial statistical release was issued the next day, covering the areas usually published other than RTT. We are working with the health board to urgently address the issues and update the statistics.

It's disappointing that, instead of being upfront from the outset about the precise cause of this problem, we've had to put forward this topical question to try and get transparency and understand what on earth is going on. We also know this is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to shortcomings in the quality, consistency and transparency of health data in Wales. As Iona Collins, the head of BMA Cymru Wales said recently, the true scale of the long waiting lists are being obscured by the fact that, unlike in England, RTT, referral-to-treatment time, figures in Wales only reflect the period after the hospital's receipt of a referral, rather than starting from the moment GPs make that referral. And I'm also hearing that differences in body mass index thresholds across Welsh health boards might be downplaying the extent of pressures on specialisms such as orthopaedics.

So, we deserve transparency and clear and unambiguous answers to the following questions: can the Cabinet Secretary explain what caused this data gap and what exactly is the Welsh Government doing to resolve it? Did the recent contentious decision to publish provisional NHS data ahead of official data releases contribute to this problem? Can the Cabinet Secretary guarantee we will receive the relevant data in time to determine whether the promise given by Betsi Cadwaladr that two-year waits in the health board—which currently stand at over 5,000—would be eliminated entirely by the end of 2025 is met? And finally, does the Cabinet Secretary agree with me that this fundamental failure in the NHS's data process demands a comprehensive audit of the quality and reliability of health-based data in Wales?

Well, the situation to which the Member refers is indefensible, and I don't seek to defend it. We're all entitled to rely on the timely reporting of accurate data: health boards, in order to improve their performance; me, as health Minister, in order to hold health boards to account; and Members of the Senedd and others to scrutinise both the health service and the actions of the Welsh Government. So, I don't seek to defend the failure by the health board to report accurate, timely data.

I would just say to the Member that, if he had watched the public accountability meeting, which was broadcast on Thursday afternoon, he will have noted that the very first question that I asked the health board was in relation to this specifically. So, there's been no attempt whatsoever not to address the question. That was the very first point I put to the health board, given the potential significance of it.

My officials, the NHS Wales chief executive and others, have been in constant contact with the board to seek to understand what is the cause of the issue and to get the relevant data from the board. Obviously, as the Member is aware, official statistics are produced independently, free from political influence or ministerial decision, and they adhere, as he obviously knows, to a range of codes of practice that govern that independence.

What I will say is that less progress has been made than I expected and was assured would have occurred by close of business yesterday. I'm not at all happy with the level of urgency that the executive team is bringing to resolving this matter. I have a meeting with the health board chair at the end of today, where I will expect an account of where they are so that I can decide on our next steps as a Welsh Government. But I expect this to be resolved within the next 24 hours, and, if it is not, I will want a formal investigation of data standards and governance at the board.

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary, for your answer and also to the Member for bringing this topical question forward. You've answered some of my questions already, Cabinet Secretary, but I still don't think we know the 'what', why this has happened. You have said officials are in contact with Betsi Cadwaladr to understand why we've got to this situation, but surely the health board have told officials by now exactly what is the cause of this and what area of the data they cannot provide you. Because surely it is incumbent on all of us around this Chamber that we know exactly what has gone wrong and how you are going to put it right. You did say you would give them until the close of play today to sort this out. If it isn't sorted out by close of play today, Cabinet Secretary, you said that there are steps you would take. I'd like to know what steps they are going to be, because I also heard, I think yesterday it was, from the business manager, that a statement is going to be forthcoming now in January, which is another couple of months' time until we can actually have proper time to scrutinise these figures properly in this Chamber. So, I'd like to know, if these data problems can be sorted out, are we going to have this statement sooner rather than later, rather than waiting until January for a statement to be forthcoming?

Well, the answer to the Member's question of, 'What has gone wrong?' is not one that I can give a categorical answer to at the moment. It's in the nature of the challenge that we're trying to resolve to understand what that is. I also am cautious about giving speculation, because obviously these are matters of statistical veracity and there are processes in relation to that specifically. What I can say to you is that the incident that triggered the concern originally was around the numbers of people appearing on lists when they had been treated. So, that is the basic challenge that caused the issue to be investigated further.

In relation to timing, I think I've been very clear that I expect the issue to be resolved urgently, for reasons that we will all subscribe to. If we are not in a position within the next 24 hours that I have the level of assurance that I want as the health Minister, and that statisticians will also separately want to have, I will want a formal investigation of data standards and governance at the board, so that we can all have the level of confidence that we need in relation to the timely provision of accurate data.

What I would say in relation to the other points that the Member has made—. I'm not sure I know what the reference particularly was to the timing of a statement. It is my intention in any event to make a statement further later on this week, updating the Senedd on whatever developments will have occurred in the meantime and on the latest arrangements in relation to the statement I've already made about making further support available to the health board by way of senior executive advice, and I plan to make that statement to update the Senedd in the coming days.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

Item 5 is next, the 90-second statements. The first is from Joyce Watson.

Diolch, Llywydd. Yesterday, this Senedd marked the International Day for the Elimination of Violence Against Women. I wanted to take this opportunity to highlight again the White Ribbon campaign and why we must dedicate ourselves in Parliament and throughout society to never commit, excuse or remain silent about violence against women and girls.

So far this year in the UK, at least 64 women have been killed in circumstances in which a man or men are primary suspects. They include Leanne Williams of Swansea; Tracey Davies of Cefn Cribwr, Bridgend; Nirodha Kalapni of Cardiff; Shelley Davies of Cardiff; and Angela Shellis of Prestatyn. Welsh women with families and friends and lives wiped out by male violence. Earlier this month, 17-year-old Lainie Williams was found dead near Blackwood. Two days later, 21-year-old Corinna Baker was found dead in Cardigan. In both cases, a man has been arrested on suspicion of murder. That is the ultimate cost and terminus of gender-based violence, but it diminishes and ruins many more lives. One in four women will experience domestic abuse in their lifetime.

I would like to pay tribute to the organisations that work day in, day out to support these women and their families. White Ribbon Day marks the beginning of 16 days of activism against gender-based violence, which is supported by events across Wales, offering a powerful opportunity for men and boys to be allies for women and girls, to challenge violence and misogyny at every turn. I urge everyone to get behind it and be part of the change. Thank you.

Today is a landmark moment for Wales and for skills development, as we host the WorldSkills UK national finals for the very first time. Of the 417 finalists from across the UK, 102 are from Wales, representing 10 colleges in 33 competitions, covering areas such as industry 4.0, cyber security and renewable energy. I'm especially proud that Bridgend College is not only one of the three host colleges for this prestigious event, but also has 15 talented learners competing in a range of disciplines, from industrial robotics, landscaping, to foundation skills, including enterprise and restaurant services. Their dedication and achievement reflect the strength of our local education sector and the ambition of our young people.

WorldSkills competitions are more than just contests. They are a platform to showcase Welsh talent, innovation and resilience on a global stage. They help raise learners' ambitions, including to develop technical and employability skills, which underpin a strong and prosperous economy. This is how we prepare for the future and equip our workforce with the skills needed. So, I want to congratulate every learner taking part and thank our colleges for their commitment to excellence. This event sends a clear message that Wales is a world-class place to develop talent and skills.

Thank you, Luke and Joyce.

Item 6 is a debate on petition P-06-1456, 'I demand a full public enquiry into the closure of Welsh Air Ambulance bases in mid and North Wales'. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion—Carolyn Thomas.

Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer. On behalf of the Petitions Committee, thank you for the opportunity to introduce this debate today. This debate has been a long time coming. The continued determined efforts of campaigners to pursue all legal avenues to preserve the Welsh Air Ambulance base in mid Wales has postponed this discussion for months. It was vital to ensure that we were not speaking about a matter that was properly being considered in the courts, but the rejection of the last appeal, in October, has removed that barrier.

This petition was submitted by Karl Ciz, having collected a total of 10,437 signatures, and, ironically, was closed early to allow a debate to take place sooner. The text of the petition is as follows:

'Recent announcement by Welsh Air Ambulance to close two bases and centralise its operations leaves whole swathes of Mid and Northwest Wales with inferior coverage. I believe the public need, and public opinion on the matter has not been listened to, and appeal to Welsh Government to intervene.

'A full public enquiry should be launched.

'Many of us feel our rights to Air Ambulance coverage will be eroded, and especially those of us in the mid and Northwest of Wales where the distances to nearest Accident and Emergency facilities are often very distant. This is a lifeline for many of us and it must not be removed without a full public enquiry.'

In response to the petition, in July 2024, the then health Minister, Eluned Morgan, wrote:

'The decision was—and should remain—the responsibility of the NHS Wales Joint Commissioning Committee. The committee was established for the purposes of jointly carrying out the function of planning, securing and commissioning of a range of specialist services, including EMRTS'—

emergency medical retrieval and transfer services.

'It is not a decision for the Welsh Government to make and nor should an operational decision of this nature be one for Ministers to make.'

A review of the service by EMRTS recommended closing the bases at Welshpool and Caernarfon, and moving the helicopters to a new site in north Wales, near the A55. Supporters of the change say this would mean more emergency calls could be answered each year, but campaigners fear it will mean slower response times for certain communities. The EMRTS recommendations included providing an additional bespoke road-based service for remote and rural areas. I'm sure local Members will have more to say about the specifics of the decision and the strong feelings in their communities.

Campaigners have taken their challenge to the highest courts in the land in recent months, without success. While the air ambulance is unique in Wales, at the heart of this petition is a question that will be familiar to Senedd petition watchers: how do we hold health boards accountable for their decisions and how do the views of communities get heard in that decision-making process?

The Petitions Committee has seen petitions relating to almost every health board in Wales seeking to challenge decisions that, usually, are centralising services away from a specific community. I suspect this is a theme that will still be here in the seventh Senedd, as technology and changing patterns of demand will drive further changes in the way health services are delivered. As politicians, we need to find a better solution. I look forward to the debate and hearing the views of Members across the Chamber.

I'd like to thank the committee, the petitioners, all those campaigners right the way across mid Wales, and those people who are going to be affected by these changes. Let's not go around the bush: Powys has become a health desert. We have a county with no district general hospital, no A&E department, minor injury units are operating with limited hours, and ambulances are consistently dragged out of our communities to cover shortages elsewhere in Wales. As a direct result, people I know in my constituency, and across mid Wales, have lost their lives. This has caused deep trauma for their families.

Against this backdrop, the decision to close the Welshpool air ambulance base is not only irresponsible, it is dangerous. Response times are already unacceptable, and will only get worse. Communities across mid and north-west Wales will experience slower emergency interventions, yet the Cabinet Secretary continues to offer reassurances that simply do not reflect the lived experiences of people we represent. While the judicial review confirmed the legality of the JCC process, legality does not equal morality or clinical sense. The courts do not rule on whether this decision was safe, fair or justified for rural Wales—that responsibility lies with us here in the Senedd.

The proposal to replace the lost air assets with so-called mitigation measures—rapid response vehicles located around mid Wales—is wholly inadequate. Even worse, these vehicles do not even exist yet. There are no final plans, no costings, no procurement, and no deployment timetables. The JCC was required to present the detailed plans by September of last year. They did not. Nothing has been delivered.

Meanwhile, the Government insists this is an operational matter, while acknowledging that the decision reflects the Welsh Government's policy expectations. The public, I believe, deserve clarity. If Ministers here are washing their hands of this matter and will not intervene to prevent the closure of these bases across Wales, then they must, at the very least, guarantee that the promised emergency road vehicles are fully operational, fully staffed, fully equipped, and generally capable of replacing what is being taken away to serve urban populations. Without this guarantee, rural Wales faces an unacceptable patient safety vacuum.

The Cabinet Secretary references improving amber category response times in Powys, but they do nothing to change the fact that a man in my constituency waited hours for an ambulance, only to die of a heart attack. That is not acceptable. We cannot discuss theoretical future improvements here while rural residents face real and immediate danger. While we hear the talk of rounded proposals, including night-time capabilities in north Wales, none of that protects the farmers in my constituency, the walkers in the Elan valley, or those drivers on the A470 who might have an accident.

Thank you to everyone who has been involved with this petition and has ensured that the petition reached that threshold of 10,000 signatures. May I also thank Russell George for collaborating with me on this? I know that Russ has done a great deal of work in Montgomeryshire and mid Wales with that group.

May I start by pointing out how important this service is for my constituency specifically? The air ambulance was established as a result of a fatal accident in the Harlech area many years ago, on the west coast of Wales. The constituent who started this petition also lives in my constituency on the west coast of Wales, and the young mother who took this case to judicial review also lives in my constituency on the west coast. That's how important this service is to my constituents, to Dwyfor Meirionnydd, and that's why I've been so vocal on this issue, because the proposed changes do worry those constituents.

The one thing that people need assurances on in mid, west and north Wales is that they have health services, and, to date, they have seen their health services decline and lose ground. We've seen the closure of medical centres, we've seen the closure of different health services, and now they see that that one lifeline, if you like, is under threat.

Threatening to centralise the service somewhere in the north-east of Wales at the expense of Dinas Dinlle, north-west Wales, and Welshpool in mid Wales, yes, that will benefit a great number of people in the north-east—and I do welcome that move to providing more services at night—but for anyone who is familiar with the data and statistics that were part of that investigation, we see clearly that there is a threat to services for people in north-west and mid Wales, and that's not acceptable. The people I represent, people in mid Wales, people on Anglesey and in Ceredigion, deserve the same service as any other part of Wales.

That's not to say that we don't support the air ambulance. The service provided by the air ambulance, the charity, is excellent. And that is proven through the fact that people in north and mid Wales are some of the most generous when it comes to donating money to this charity, because they do appreciate the provision being made. But there is no doubt that centralising the service, as is proposed, will be harmful to people in that area, because not only will it take more time for a helicopter to fly to the far ends of the Llŷn peninsula or to southern Meirionnydd, but these rapid response vehicles will also find it more difficult, and it's those vehicles, in truth, that I am perhaps most worried about. It's clear to me that the people who put these plans together haven't considered the landscape of the area. You have to travel along long and winding valleys in very difficult circumstances, when the fog comes in, when the frost sets in, which will make it very difficult for vehicles to get to areas such as Anelog at the far end of the Llŷn peninsula or Bryncrug in southern Meirionnydd.

Tens of thousands of people have signed petitions objecting to the plans to close the Welshpool and Caernarfon air ambulance bases. I'm pleased that we have the opportunity again to discuss and debate this issue and the dreadful impact it will have on people living in mid and north Wales.

When someone in Wales faces a medical emergency, it is only natural to wonder who will come to their aid and what services will be available to them upon their arrival. This concern, of course, is even more evident in rural parts of Wales because of the time it takes for emergency services to reach many locations, and this is exactly why the air ambulance service is so valued. Last year, a committee within the Welsh NHS, the JCC, took a decision to close bases at Welshpool and Caernarfon. They made the wrong decision. Lives in mid and north Wales will be put at risk unless the Government intervenes.

The people of mid Wales don't buy the spin that some are peddling that this is going to be a better service for them. It's not. Powys health board and Betsi Cadwaladr health board both voted against and do not support the decision to close these key strategic bases. It's not supported by not only the two health boards, but by tens of thousands of people and clinicians at the bases. It also has cross-party support. I thank Mabon ap Gwynfor, James Evans and others across the parties for their commitment to save and retain these two bases.

Powys does not have a district general hospital, which is precisely why I and Powys residents feel so passionate about retaining the air ambulance service. If people are receiving the service now, they should continue to receive the service in the future. That was the key principle of the so-called consultation. That clearly is not going to happen if the two bases move further away from rural communities. It will take longer for the air ambulance to reach an incident, offer urgent medical attention and transfer people into care as quickly as possible. It is a matter of life and death.

This decision, of course, was later challenged through a judicial review, but it's important to point out that the JR did not examine if the policy to close these bases was correct or not. It was solely concerned with the decision-making process. So let no decision maker or Welsh Government Minister suggest that the legal challenge endorsed the decision in any way.

As part of the proposed changes, a range of so-called mitigation measures were announced, including the deployment of additional rapid response vehicles for areas of mid and north Wales. Those steps fall well short of what is truly needed. But there was a promise made that no base would close until these further resources are operational and in place. Public trust and confidence in the decision makers is at an all-time low. This is why the campaign group, of which I am one member, and the wider public remain sceptical of those commitments made. To date, no clear details have been provided regarding the promised measures, and requests for confirmation from the health Secretary and others have not given any assurance. What the Welsh Government and the health Secretary should do is intervene and ensure that these bases are not closed.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care, Jeremy Miles.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Can I start my contribution to this debate by recognising the strength of feeling in our communities when it comes to local health services? This is particularly true in rural areas and when people feel that a service is to be lost or taken away from them. I welcome the opportunity in this debate to provide an update to the Senedd on the plans of the Wales Air Ambulance Charity and the NHS Wales Joint Commissioning Committee to improve services, following the Court of Appeal's decision in this case.

The purpose of these plans is clear, namely to improve care and outcomes for people in Wales, including mid and north Wales, who suffer a life-threatening crisis and need medical support and transfer, particularly at night. I understand people's concerns who live near the current centres that this will mean a reduction in service levels. But the aim is to improve everyone's access to care that saves lives.

Quite simply, the current service cannot reach enough people who need support, and the way that the service is organised is responsible for this. Between 2023 and 2024, it was not possible for the service to get to 551 people who needed support in mid and north Wales between 8 o'clock in the evening and 2 o'clock in the morning. In addition to that, the crew in Caernarfon for 199 days didn't see a single patient. And also in Welshpool: 163 days over a two-year period without coming into contact with a single patient. To all intents and purposes—

Cabinet Secretary, would you take an intervention?

Yes.

I'm just interested in those figures you quoted. Does that include the time during the COVID pandemic as well?

As I mentioned to the Member, that was between 2023 and 2024, so no.

To all intents and purposes, that is a whole year without a single patient being treated across both centres.

I know that campaigners have fought through the courts in favour of keeping the current arrangements in place. The legal process, as has been acknowledged already in this debate, has now been fully completed, and this allows the charity now to work with the joint committee to improve outcomes for the people of Wales.

It's important to note that it is the joint committee, as has been acknowledged, that commissions the retrieval and transfer services, and they are responsible for this decision jointly with the charity.

What risks being lost in this process, Dirprwy Lywydd, and in what is understandably a highly charged debate about where bases are located, is the understanding of the excellent work done both by the charity and EMRTS. The charity is a highly valued partner of NHS Wales, and I know it's absolutely passionate about enabling more Welsh residents to receive its services, to save more lives. EMRTS and the air ambulance charity are not—

Will you take an intervention? I'm grateful for the intervention. You say that they do want to see more lives saved. There is no doubt about that, and good work is being done. But a pledge was made that we would have emergency response vehicles and that they would be located somewhere in the north-west of Wales or in mid Wales. To date, we haven't seen any updates on that, and that's a cause of real concern. Do you acknowledge that concern, and are you working with them in order to ensure that that is developed as a matter of urgency?

Dirprwy Lywydd, I intend to cover that specifically, as it has been raised more than once in the debate. So, I'll get on to that issue specifically, if I may.

As colleagues will be aware, EMRTS and the air ambulance charity are not the first on the scene of an accident or injury. They are the experts who are called to the scene of trauma and life-threatening incidents to provide that life-saving care and to get patients to the right hospital for the next stage of their treatment. The purpose of the change is to ensure that everyone who is currently able to receive EMRTS care will continue to do so, while improving access for those who currently have little or no access at night. As has been acknowledged, the lawfulness of the JCC's decision has been subjected to comprehensive judicial examination, where all relevant facts, evidence and arguments were scrutinised. So, while I note the petition, I don't believe a public inquiry would do more than duplicate the scrutiny. Importantly, it would not result in improved clinical outcomes.

Will you take an intervention?

Yes, certainly.

Thank you. I think you probably would acknowledge, though, that the judicial review was about the process and that an inquiry would be a very different process. It wouldn't be looking at the process of the decision making, it would be looking at the political decisions that were made. So, they are two different things, aren't they?

They are two different things. I also went on to say that I don't believe an inquiry would result in improved clinical outcomes, and I set out earlier in my contribution to the debate the level of capacity that is currently not used and the level of need that is currently not met by the existing arrangements, which I hope Members will have found helpful.

Coming on, Dirprwy Lywydd, if I may—[Interruption.] I want to address a point that Members have raised consistently in the debate, if I may, on recommendation 4 in the review, in relation to mitigating factors. The position of the JCC and health boards, which the court accepted, was that these are a response to core ambulance provision, not a mitigation for base changes. But following the conclusion of the legal process a few weeks ago, work can now resume on those proposals. A plan and a timeline will be published in early 2026 as part of the integrated medium-term plan process for the JCC. That will be supported by transparent governance and, as Members I'm sure will be reassured, appropriate stakeholder engagement. I don't think at this point, in light of that, that it's appropriate for me to comment further, but I hope that timeline is of some reassurance to Members. The JCC and the charity can now, in light of the proceedings concluding, take forward the changes. My role and the Government's role will be to monitor that closely and to get the assurances that we all want to see that these improvements will deliver better for people in Wales.

I call on Carolyn Thomas to reply to the debate.

I'd like to thank Members for their contributions. James Evans highlighted the lack of access to facilities in his rural community and highlighted that the court decision does not cover what he felt was safe or fair. He also talked about the golden hour, that it should be a right for everyone, not just those in urban centres.

Mabon told us how the air ambulance was started because of a fatality in his area. It is a lifeline for many. He also highlighted how generous people have been in fundraising over the years, and also that the landscape and terrain in west Wales, north-west Wales, can be difficult for land-based vehicles, which should be a consideration going forward. Russell George also highlighted that Powys does not have a district hospital and it's a matter of life and death. The JR did not examine whether it was the right decision, only the process. He also highlighted other things as well. [Laughter.] I'm just picking out the highlights here. Rapid response vehicles and other measures are not in place yet; they need a guarantee they will be in place before any base is closed. That's essential.

I'd like to thank the Cabinet Secretary for his response, and also an update regarding the Wales Air Ambulance Charity plan. So, the aim is to improve access to everyone's life; the current service is unable to get to everyone who needs it. He also highlighted how the charity is a valued partner of NHS Wales, and believes a public inquiry would not improve clinical outcomes and that there is a level of capacity that's not currently used. But following, now, the court decision, work is now resuming on proposals to take forward the plan. So, hopefully, there will be some reassurance there.

I'd like to thank campaigners for—[Interruption.]

Will you take an intervention?

Yes, I will.

Thank you, Carolyn. I wonder whether you can just confirm: will this petition remain open? Because I think it should do, because there's further work and scrutiny to do on this, as you've acknowledged, because, of course, that commitment was made that no base would close until those rapid response vehicles were in place. So, I do hope that you'll keep the petition open in order to scrutinise the Government on this.

I will check the committee decision and—. Well, I'll take it back to committee—it's not my decision to make—and check whether it hadn't been closed before we had this debate, but it shouldn't have been. Okay. Thank you.

I'd also like to thank the campaigners for their efforts—gaining over 10,000 signatures is a huge effort. It's highlighted the passion of campaigners for the air ambulance's work, and all the volunteers as well that raise money all the time. It's an emergency service that none of us would ever want to use, but for which all of us are extremely grateful. Thank you for the debate.

The proposal is to note the petition. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there are objections. Therefore, I will defer voting on this item until voting time.

Item 7, debate on the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee report, 'Apprenticeship pathways'. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion—Andrew R.T. Davies.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I move the motion in my name on the order paper.

Before I open this debate, I would like to briefly acknowledge that one important voice will be missing today. Hefin David was extremely passionate about apprenticeships and the opportunities they presented to learners and getting the system right. I think other committee members would agree he was the driving force behind this inquiry, and it is very sad that we will not be able to hear his contributions this afternoon.

Apprenticeships are a fantastic option to help people develop their skills and also to assist businesses in upskilling their workforce, which should in turn improve the bottom line. However, we found that there are numerous challenges that stand in the way for people who wish to take a vocational pathway. For many people looking to increase their skills, apprenticeships are by far the best choice. They combine learning and earning, work and training, but we heard that being able to make that choice is not easy, and even once you are in the system, the route is not particularly clear. If you want to sum up this report in one sentence, it is: apprenticeships need to be demystified. That's not my word.

We heard from a number of apprentices as part of the engagement work we commissioned for this inquiry. I would like to thank everyone who took time out from this course to contribute to the work. All those apprentices who have been keen advocates for the vocational route—. One of the participants told us taking an apprenticeship was a massive turning point in their life. It improved their morale and the only regret was they did not start sooner.

However, participants also flagged many of the challenges we have seen with the access to apprenticeships and the pathway. A key challenge for apprentices highlighted in this report included parity of esteem, awareness of what was on offer, and understanding the route through. Whilst we have seen some improvement, parity of esteem is still a real issue. We heard from apprentices that convincing their parents that the vocational route was the right route for them was sometimes actually a hurdle to studying. However, some parents are not the only ones to give poor advice. One participant knew all her life she wanted to run a hair salon like her mum, but her careers advice was repeatedly that she should take A-levels and a degree before going on to vocational training.

We found that there was a perverse incentive at the centre of our education system that almost certainly goes some way to maintaining this misguided view that the academic route is better than the vocational. Welsh schools have a very strong financial incentive to encourage pupils to carry on to study A-levels at sixth form, instead of going off to pursue vocational education at the local college. This leads to the shocking situation where schools are actively giving pupils advice that is to the school’s benefit instead of the student’s. This is, of course, disgraceful. Schools should be acting solely in their pupils' interests, but we heard of cases where, even when the college was next door, pupils were not given information or allowed to explore courses.

I imagine any parent reading our report will be absolutely horrified to hear that schools, as institutions that we would expect to put the interests of pupils first, are incentivised to and actively give poor advice to their students. To address this, recommendation 1 in the report calls on the Welsh Government to ensure schools, colleges and employers work together to present apprenticeships as a high-quality option.

We heard a lot about the Baker clause in England, legislation that requires schools to allow vocational providers access to their pupils. It is not perfect, but it seems a good option to explore, and I think it might provide some useful lessons we could replicate and improve on here in Wales. I was pleased to see the Welsh Government accept this recommendation and give a very comprehensive response. I note in the response that the Minister committed to looking into the Baker clause and writing to the committee. I wonder if he might give us a sneak peek of his findings, and if it is still a matter that his views are being formed on, could he just give us an indication of the timeline that he's working to?

The report also makes recommendations around improving recruitment and retention of vocational trainers, remuneration of apprentices, the degree apprenticeship offers, improving guidance for employers, ensuring progress on the vocational education and training strategy, and enhancing labour market intelligence.

I am pleased to see seven of our eight recommendations were accepted and only one received the dreaded 'accept in principle'. I would like to thank the Welsh Government for their constructive response to this report. I look forward to seeing the outputs; in particular I'm looking forward to reading the vocational education and training strategy in the spring.

I would like to thank everyone who gave evidence to this inquiry for helping the committee develop our understanding and make our recommendations. I look forward to hearing the other contributions on this important topic.

As a member of the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee, I am, first, pleased to be able to contribute to today's debate on the report into apprenticeship pathways, and would like to align myself with the Chair's comments around Hefin David and his contribution. It really was the driving force of this, and his passion for apprenticeships brought us as a committee to this inquiry. His contribution today, I'm sure, firstly, the Minister would have really enjoyed, given Hefin's involvement in apprenticeships, and I'm sure we as a Chamber would have enjoyed it too.

But what the report makes clear is that apprenticeships matter, not just as a route into work, but as a foundation for Wales's future economy. Colleges alone deliver nearly half of all apprenticeships in Wales, consistently performing above the sector average and helping to equip learners with the skills our industries desperately need. Yet, despite that importance, the system supporting them has become stretched, inconsistent and, as the continued reduction in apprenticeships stats shows, fragile.

We've seen starts fall from 22,880 to 21,626 in just one year, and the Welsh Government has revised down its target from 125,000 to 100,000, and even that is looking increasingly challenging, despite the Minister's commitment to that figure, which he gave to the economy committee this morning. Providers have had to rely on an emergency £4.1 million from Medr simply to sustain new and additional starts, and as ColegauCymru highlight, more will be needed next year to ensure apprentices can complete their programmes.

The impact on young people, particularly school leavers, is clear. The Government's own response acknowledges that rising delivery costs have resulted in fewer entry-level opportunities in sectors such as construction and hospitality, precisely the routes that offer 16-year-olds a practical, respected alternative to academic study. If we genuinely believe in opportunity, ambition and aspiration, we can't keep narrowing the very pathways that make vocational education viable.

I am pleased that the Government has accepted many of our recommendations—not all—including the need for clearer, more consistent advice and guidance. Access to impartial in-person careers advice for 14 to 19-year-olds remains patchy, as the Chair alluded to in his opening remarks, and too often apprenticeships are still framed as second best. That must change. In rural communities like the one I represent, where transport costs and availability already limit opportunities, clarity and early information is vital.

I'd like to thank the clerks, the Chair and fellow committee members in this inquiry. I would also echo the tributes that have been paid to Hefin David. It's in moments like this when we're debating the apprenticeship and skills agenda, when we're in budget scrutiny, as we were this morning, asking questions around apprenticeships, that I find that I miss him the most. I miss those conversations that we both used to have around how you could tackle some of the issues within the skills system and how you improve the apprenticeship offer. One of the biggest regrets that I have is that we never had the opportunity—we spoke about it all the time—to sit down and tackle that giant of an issue within apprenticeships, which is how you reform the apprenticeship levy. I know that the Minister also shares that interest in how we tackle the apprenticeship levy and I look forward to hopefully having those conversations with him, as we progress the agenda on apprenticeships in the run-up to the next Senedd. But it's in moments like this that I miss Hefin deeply.

I want to agree with Sam Kurtz. I think we need to move away from—and he touched on it—that stigma that is around apprenticeships as being the second-best form of education. I think this report reaffirms everything that we already know about apprenticeships, and that is that they are the cornerstone of Wales's skills agenda and one of the most effective investments, actually, a Government can make in our workforce and in our society. And that's what makes, I think, the moment that is facing the sector such a critical one, as the Welsh Government prepares to lay its draft budget before the Senedd for debate next month.

The past few years have been uncertain for the sector and apprenticeships have taken centre stage in the national conversation in a way, actually, that they haven't for a long time. And, of course, the world is shifting incredibly quickly. What a genuinely growth-orientated education and training system looks like in an age of AI, with ecological and demographic pressures shaping everything around us, is a conversation that actually could keep us in this Chamber for the next week in itself, but the one thing we can say with confidence is that it doesn't look like the status quo.

Now, what this report does is challenge Government to aim higher, and it's a bit of a provocation in that sense. The kind of economy and skills system we want to see is on the other side of a lot of hard work, and reports aren't the end but the beginning of something. So, even though this report is complete, the priorities it lays out for the next Welsh Government have to be given renewed impetus.

I'm pleased to contribute to this ETRA debate on apprenticeship pathways today. It aligns closely with the Children, Young People and Education Committee's work on routes into post-16 education. And I would also like to highlight the work of our colleague and friend Hefin David. Although he is no longer with us here today, I'd like to just say that the ripples of his legacy continue all the time and we take them forward on his behalf.

For young people and for their parents, who will often have a major influence, clearer, accessible information is essential. They need to know what jobs are available locally and nationally, and they need clarity on the pathways that will take them there. Too often we hear UK and Welsh Government announcements about large investments promising thousands of new jobs, but many of those jobs are in construction and the reality is that we don't currently have enough skilled people entering that sector. If we are serious about delivering these projects, we need a proper workforce plan that starts with our young people.

A key part of that is work experience. Many young people learn best by being practical and engaging directly with the world of work. If we want to keep them engaged and prevent them from dropping out, then there needs to be more meaningful work experience opportunities available. The junior apprenticeship route is a strong example of where this is working well already. We also know that learners training as plumbers and electricians often struggle to secure that final year of real-world experience required to finish their course. We need a simple, consistent model that employers can easily use. At the moment, issues like insurance and administrative burdens too often stand in their way.

Across Wales, there are promising examples we can build on, such as the Cardiff Commitment and Anglesey council's work, which shows how local government can create clear pathways into employment, whether in local businesses or within the foundational economy. There is a real opportunity for other city deal regions and corporate joint committees to support this work in collaboration with Medr and Careers Wales. We also have to acknowledge that sixth forms and further education colleges are also competing for the same students.

A genuinely learner-centred approach, including colleges and employers attending parents' evenings, would help families better understand the full range of vocational and apprenticeship opportunities. University is not the right option for everyone and it's becoming increasingly expensive. One of the report's recommendations is to promote apprenticeships as a career pathway. For the first time, our Minister for apprenticeships is someone who has actually done an apprenticeship, and I know Jack is using that real-world experience to champion the benefits of earning while learning.

I'd like to thank the committee for all their work on this, and I think it's really important that we talk about apprenticeships and the opportunities that they can provide for young people. But, as somebody who represents a border constituency, opportunities to access apprenticeships aren't always available for people in my area, because the opportunities available for apprenticeships in England are blocked out from them, because Welsh funding will only be provided to Welsh providers, which I think is a mistake. I think it hampers opportunities for young people. I had a constituent who wanted to study rural enterprise and land management as an apprentice up in Harper Adams, but they were denied that opportunity because they said, ‘That course is not in Wales, it can't be funded, because we do not fund English universities.’

I think if we're going to start to give young people in my constituency, and those people who live on the borders, the opportunity to do apprenticeships, the Welsh Government needs to look at its policy of how it funds those places with English providers, because I'm afraid to say that parochialism that we have here, that we'll only fund in Wales, I think is a mistake. It is holding back some of our young people, and this young individual I was speaking to wanted to come back to work in Wales, and the actual business they want the apprenticeship through was a Welsh provider, so they were only going to go there to study and come back. So, I think the Minister and the Welsh Government really do need to look at how the funding model is set up.

As Luke Fletcher and others have said, if we want to make this an option for people to study, and make it the first choice, not the second choice or a fallback for people, we need to give them the opportunity to study those degree apprenticeships or apprenticeships right the way across the United Kingdom, not just here in Wales, because I think holding people here puts people off doing them, and actually forces them then to go down a route that isn't for them.

I told you, Deputy Presiding Officer, that I'd be very short, and I'll sit down.

And I call on the Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership, Jack Sargeant.

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. Can I thank all Members for their contributions today, and can I echo the remarks of the Chair and all Members who contributed to today's debate by supporting their comments around our good friend Hefin? I think Hefin would have particularly enjoyed today, mainly because he would have had the opportunity to grill me not once, but twice. Hefin, of all of you, liked to give me a bit of a hard time, and we enjoyed that contribution from him. It was always a valued contribution.

I'd like to thank all of those who provided evidence to the committee, including apprentices themselves—which I think is great to see and we should see more of—providers, employers and partners across Wales. And I hope the positive spirit in which the debate has been held this afternoon is a reflection on (a) the committee's work and their findings, which we welcome, but also the response that the Government has provided, including accepting seven out of the eight recommendations. I'll try and cover the 'accept in principle' point the Chair made and other colleagues have made later on in my contribution.

Apprenticeships remain a high-quality, accessible route for people of all ages, and they are a vital driver of economic growth. We are proud of the record on delivering our flagship apprenticeship programme in Wales. The Welsh Government has increased annual funding for apprenticeships to £144 million this year, and under the draft budget this will increase further to £146 million for next year. This demonstrates our ongoing commitment to delivering high-quality apprenticeships that support both learners and the Welsh economy.

Llywydd, supporting young people and building a skilled workforce are central to our national priorities. Since the start of the Senedd term, over 85,000 apprenticeship opportunities have been created, and, for Sam's enjoyment in particular, I'll reiterate what I said in committee this morning: we are on track to achieve our 100,000 all-age target for this Senedd term. To further boost delivery, Medr are reallocating an additional £4 million this year, creating more opportunities in sectors that matter most to Wales's economy.

And Llywydd, our world is changing fast. We heard from Members about this, and that is why the Welsh Government's apprenticeship policy statement underlines our commitment to accessible, high-quality apprenticeships that meet the needs of learners and employers. Our approach is to ensure apprenticeships remain flexible and responsive to economic and sectoral needs, supporting progression and opportunity for all.

I appreciate that, obviously, the budget has only come out today in Westminster, but there were some really exciting parts of that budget speaking particularly to apprenticeships and providing that support to businesses who want to take on apprenticeships. Has the Minister had an opportunity to think about how that might factor into a Welsh budget around apprenticeships, again, appreciating that you might not have had the chance to go through the detail?

So, I haven't had the chance to work out the detail, but it was a nice try from the Member. I know James doesn't have anything to do today and can watch BBC, but I've been quite busy, Presiding Officer, but I will take the time to watch the detail.

As I was going on to say, Presiding Officer, apprenticeships in Wales remain fully funded for training costs for all ages and businesses. The shared apprenticeships programme enables apprentices to work with multiple employers and is being expanded to include green skills sectors. We are acutely aware of our current and future skills needs across Wales in many of our key sectors, and the need to prioritise this. Addressing this, labour market intelligence is being strengthened through a planned national skills audit and enhanced collaboration with regional skills partnerships. Members will be pleased that the skills audit planned will be supported by £75,000 in dedicated funding, and will provide robust evidence to inform future planning and building on the work of the successful green skills review.

Llywydd, apprenticeships are just the start of people's learning journey. Members will also be aware of the funding for the flexible skills programme that has not only been welcomed in this Chamber, but also by industry. Parity of esteem, as the Chair outlined in his opening, between vocational and academic routes, is vital for providing the young people of Wales with the opportunities they deserve, while acting as a vital starting point for the talent pipeline in our economy. Our programme for government commitment commits to achieving parity, and we are working with Careers Wales, Medr, and other partners to ensure learners receive impartial advice and are aware of all of the options that the Member outlined. Careers Wales now offers guidance to all year 11 learners, and we are supporting initiatives to widen participation.

Llywydd, a national vocational education training strategy is in development with stakeholder engagement. The strategy will be informed by five delivery strands, including innovation, collaboration and widening participation. A stakeholder reference group is helping shape that work, and a strategic direction for vocational education and training will be published in the spring. [Interruption.] Yes.

You mentioned a little bit ago about Careers Wales and the advice that they give to people. I'm just interested: is that advice tailored, as I said earlier, to people who are living in my constituency and other areas, to sort of say, 'If you want to go and study an apprenticeship in England, you probably will not get funding for that', so it doesn't build up the hopes of young people just to crash them down when they go through the process?

Well, Careers Wales will offer impartial and correct advice to all Members, and they will do that in a way that suits all parts of Wales and all constituents as well.

Llywydd, further work is being done to clarify progression routes and expand higher level opportunities, including degree apprenticeships. One of the points the Chair recognised as well was that recruiting and retaining skills trainers and assessors is essential to achieving all of our goals, and we are working with providers to identify barriers and support professional development, ensuring a sustainable workforce. We are committed to supporting providers, as they adapt to new challenges, and promoting a more consistent approach to professional development. Every learner, regardless of their background, deserves the opportunity to succeed, and we are determined to ensure they can. And the reason, Presiding Officer, for the one accept-in-principle recommendation to recommendation 3 is because that precisely falls in the operational remit of Medr, who have also responded to the committee.

Llywydd, we set ourselves ambitious targets regarding uptake of the apprenticeship system in Wales, precisely because we know the difference apprenticeships make to the lives of those who complete them and to the future of Welsh employers. I will never tire of saying how proud I am to be a former engineering apprentice. Apprenticeships are the gateway to success in life, and I would like to recommend that path to anyone that I meet in the future. I can see time's with us, Chair, so I'd like to—

I'll give you extra time because of the interventions you accepted.

I'm nearly wrapping up anyway, Chair, and I think Members will be grateful for that. So, I do want to thank the committee for its work again. We are committed to working with all partners to ensure apprenticeships remain a robust, attractive and accessible pathway for all, supporting both individual aspirations and the future needs of our economy. And to the Chair, who I haven't quite got to, I haven't got a timeline for responding, but I am committed to it. He'll appreciate that I'm still only just responding to the committee report, but I will provide the committee with an update on the question that he asked. Diolch.

I call on Andrew R.T. Davies to reply to the debate.

Thank you, DPO, and just to sum up the few points that were raised. It's always pleasing to hear Members who weren't sitting on the committee contributing to the debate—Carolyn Thomas and James Evans. James Evans highlighted a problem with a Powys constituent, but that is a problem that is across Wales, and especially in the agricultural community. With agricultural engineering, I can think of an example in my own region where someone wanted to do an engineering course on a particular brand of product, and that product was only available at an FE college in England, that part of the course was, and they couldn't get funding to go to do the course and therefore they couldn't take their apprenticeship any further forward, they couldn't. So, there is an issue about the slate curtain that is stopping people going over to colleges in England where courses are provided. And that's something, I think, that the Minister hopefully will take up and look at, because, obviously, it's been raised with us here today by James Evans, and I'm sure others would have other examples they could use as well.

Carolyn Thomas highlighted the importance of quality information and the ability to work with the learner and make sure that they get the right work experience—quality work experience—which I think we can all remember in our school days was something that was readily available, in fairness, but sadly has fallen out of favour, almost, in schools. And we need to get that work experience—. Not just give someone an overall to stand in the corner of a room, but to actually get their hands on oil and other bits and pieces in the engineering sector, and other vocational courses, so that they get a genuine taste of what an apprenticeship might look like. And that, hopefully, would stimulate their imagination and their desire to actually fulfil the course and get the grade of training that they require. And it's an important part that was touched on in our report when we were taking evidence.

She also touched on an interesting route to provide more apprenticeships: city deals. And it's something that I hadn't given much thought to, to be honest with you, but I think it is something that is very worth while considering and taking forward. And we might well, as a committee, put our thinking caps on and write to the city deals, because that's an inquiry we have undertaken, and put that suggestion to them to see how they can facilitate that learning route for apprenticeships.

The two committee members who spoke, Luke and Sam, both highlighted the importance of the apprenticeships that they have both signed up to, because they are both very evangelical about talking about the apprenticeships that should be available to learners. But, importantly, they both highlighted the evidence that we took that, in many instances, they're regarded as second best, because obviously there's this overarching belief in the educational fraternity that you have to go down the route of academia, and that isn't the case. And, frankly, someone who's done an apprenticeship and done a vocational course, very often, when it comes to pounds, shillings and pence, is earning more at the end than someone who has taken an academic route and got a degree.

I always remember an experience when I was in Dublin and someone said to me, 'If you want someone to programme a computer, you can find any one of 101 people in any bar or club across this city. If you want someone to change a light bulb or fix the plaster in your flat, you won't find anyone as such, and they'll be able to command a premium for that then.' And that's the truth of it. We train people, whether it's academia or vocational, to go into the place of work and make our economy work better, and that's what should be driving what we're trying to achieve.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Item 8 is next, the Welsh Conservatives debate: UK Government budget. I call on Sam Rowlands to move the motion.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I move the motion before us today. What an omnishambles of a budget we've experienced this afternoon. The autumn budget is supposed to be one of the most important economic moments of the year. It sets the tone for the months ahead, highlights the Government's priorities, and outlines the challenges facing families, workers and businesses. At a time of real economic pressure, people across Wales were looking for certainty, stability and leadership. Instead, what they received is a culmination of weeks of confusion, delay, uncertainty and economic instability. And what does all this do? It erodes trust and confidence in a Government to deliver for people in the UK and here in Wales.

We know in this place that trust is so important, the cornerstone of our democracy. Without it, our whole system begins to fall apart, and right now, that is breaking, because we have a Labour Government who have broken promise, after promise, after promise. When Labour came into Government, they promised to not tax working people. They brought in a jobs tax, which is hitting businesses and charities with higher national insurance contributions. Their family farms and family firms tax has caused real distress for people who are already working hard just to keep things going. Promises made, promises broken.

We were also told that the last budget, last year, was a once-in-a-Parliament budget. Rachel Reeves said, 'We're not coming back with more tax increases or borrowing.' Yet, today, the Chancellor delivered another tax-raising budget: £26 billion in tax rises that will punish hard-working people up and down Wales. The result of Labour's choices. Promises made, promises broken.

I said this budget was an omnishambles in my opening remarks. It was delayed, rewritten and accompanied by a series of very public u-turns. Far from providing reassurance, the uncertainty created by the Government has led to hesitation in the markets, delay from investors and anxiety among employers. Businesses across Wales, especially small firms already working with tight margins, were left unable to plan, unsure what tax or regulatory environment they would face. And then, to top it off, the Office for Budget Responsibility report leaked before the budget was announced. Absolutely extraordinary, and shows that Labour has not got a grip.

Since Labour took office, people are telling us that they feel worse off, and this is for good reason. We have so far seen unemployment up; borrowing costs are up; inflation is up; debt interest up; tax rises are up. Simply put, this Labour Government is not working. This is not how a responsible Government behaves. Stability and predictability are the foundations of economic confidence, and today's budget has delivered neither.

But we know, even without this recent instability, the economic backdrop created by this Government was already extremely challenging. Analysts, including from the Bank of England, have made it clear that Labour's tax rises last year hindered growth, reduced unemployment, added to inflationary pressures, and ultimately have depressed tax receipts. And here lies the core problem: Labour's economic decisions last year made the situation worse, not better.

We've heard that Labour backbenchers in Westminster have described this budget as a budget for the party, not for the nation. They continue to put party before nation by refusing to get welfare spending under control. Instead of taking the fair and truly compassionate approach of helping people into work, they're expanding welfare spend, whilst also seeing 5,000 people a day move out of work and onto benefits.

By contrast, when the Conservatives were in power, 800 new people every day entered the workplace. We are clear that only the Conservatives offer a credible route to repairing public finances, with £47 billion in spending reductions, including cutting foreign aid, reducing the civil service back to pre-pandemic levels, and getting welfare spending back under control so that work pays and the system is fair and sustainable, following the Conservatives' golden economic rule to get borrowing back under control.

What we're seeing from Labour in Westminster looks all too familiar, because it's the same story we've seen from Labour here in Wales, being propped up by Plaid Cymru. They simply don't know how to manage the economy. The Welsh Conservatives have already pointed out areas in the Welsh Government where they continue to waste money that could be put to much better use in helping our economy thrive.

These national decisions matter deeply for Wales, because here we face serious and growing challenges. Economic and demographic and social pressures are mounting, our public services are stretched to breaking point, our private sector remains reluctant to invest here because of the hostile business environment created by Labour-run Governments at both ends of the M4, households continue to struggle with real cost pressures because of the rises in inflation, businesses are still recovering from multiple economic shocks, and local authorities from Wrexham to Pembrokeshire warn of unprecedented budget deficits.

In that context, this autumn budget should have offered clarity, ambition, and a plan for growth. Instead, it delivered uncertainty, instability, and neglect, all rooted in Labour's decision to continue raising taxes and its refusal to get welfare spending under control. It's clear that Labour entered Government without a clear plan. They inherited a recovering economy, the fastest growing in the G7, with inflation back under control at 2 per cent. But their disastrous choices at the budget last year have locked Britain in a doom loop of higher spending, costly borrowing, and higher taxes.

On these benches, we want Wales to thrive, we want families to prosper, businesses to feel confident, and communities to know that they are supported. But for that to happen, we need a UK Government that treats Wales as a serious partner. We need long-term strategic investment, not one-off pots or sporadic gestures. This budget was an opportunity to reset the relationship with Wales and to demonstrate a real understanding of the challenges our nation faces. Instead, it has shown the opposite. It's clear that the Conservatives have a credible plan to fix Wales and get our economy moving.

Today I urge Members to acknowledge the reality that the autumn budget has failed to deliver for Wales, the UK Government's priorities are not aligned with the needs of our communities, and the people of Wales deserve better. I urge all Members to support our motion.

Though it's very tempting to focus on the hypocrisy of the Tories in my response to the budget, I'm not going to do so, because this is a big deal, a big moment, not just for political commentators, public services and Governments, such as ours here in Wales, but, more importantly, for the people we represent. They are the ones looking at what the budget means for them. They are the ones that have felt the pressures in recent years. It's not just a cost-of-living crisis—[Interruption.] I'm not taking an intervention. I haven't made any points at the moment relevant to the budget, so I'm not taking that intervention.

It's the people of Wales who've had to suffer in recent years. It's not a cost-of-living crisis—it's become a way of living for the majority of people, of facing that impossible choice that we've seen between heating or eating, or neither in some cases, of not being able to afford a home. The increase we've seen in services such as the reliance on foodbanks, for things that are completely fundamental, should shame us all. So, I'm testing today's budget on what those people that we represent will be thinking of this budget.

We also need to look at what all of our scrutiny work, and looking at the budget that we have as a Senedd, will mean for them. Because, let's be clear, whilst there is additional funding being announced for Wales today, this is consequential funding, Barnettised, that it is usual for Wales to receive. It's also worth noting that it is an eighth of what Wales is owed from HS2 expenditure alone. The reality is that real-terms growth in the Welsh budget over the course of this spending review period will be lower than at any point during the devolution era—lower even than the last spending review period of the previous Tory Government. Wales's capital budget is also expected to contract in real terms over the same period—the only one of all the devolved nations where this is the case.

The budget is completely silent on reforming our outdated and unfair funding arrangements, silent on the devolution of the Crown Estate and correcting historic underinvestment in our rail infrastructure, of which HS2 is just one symptom of a larger problem. Furthermore, the fundamental injustice—the words of the Cabinet Secretary for finance—of Wales being short-changed as a result of the Barnettisation of UK Treasury reimbursements for employer national insurance contributions in the public sector has not been rectified. This is a shortfall that will continue to be passed on to our public services for the foreseeable future, meaning further reductions in services and support, as we've seen over the past year, being inevitable.

Apparently, the Tories have a credible plan to get the economy of Wales moving. [Interruption.] The trouble is—[Interruption.] It's just a real pity you've failed to provide any insight into how you would do that. So, I absolutely don't think at the moment you're part of the discussion.

Yes, of course it was as expected. We had the abolition of the two-child benefit cap, which, as others have said today, should have gone much earlier, but now it's gone and that's great. That's really good news for people with several children in their families. What I want to concentrate on today is how this budget did not do what I had hoped it would do in terms of rectifying the completely dysfunctional system that we have in our energy system, which obviously, along with food, is the main cause of people's distress with the cost-of-living crisis. So, yes, there were baby steps taken in removing social and environmental levies from electricity pricing and moving that over to general taxation, which is obviously much more progressive, and that will presumably reduce the cost of electricity bills, though it's unclear at this moment how much, but no doubt we'll read about that in tomorrow's papers.

But it was very disappointing, for me anyway, that the Chancellor didn't decouple the price of electricity from the global price of gas, because whilst we are pegged in everything we do in energy to the global price of gas, it doesn't give us the true benefit of all the work we've done on switching to renewables. Green energy should be protecting our energy supply from the chaos that is the fluctuating price of fossil fuels on the global marketplace, because renewables are now far cheaper than fossil fuels. Between 2010 and 2023, according to analysis done by Unite the Union, which is my union, solar power costs have fallen by 90 per cent, onshore wind costs have fallen by 70 per cent, and offshore wind has fallen by 63 per cent. That's in a mere 13 years of Tory Government. Solar is now 56 per cent cheaper than fossil fuel energy, but we're still stuck paying the same inflated prices because of the pegging of energy prices in our domestic bills to the global market price of gas, which is something that obviously all our constituents can do absolutely nothing about.

Obviously, it keeps the fossil fuel barons in the middle east, Russia, China and the United States very happy, but it really doesn't do the job that we want to have done to move forward in greening our economy, which is absolutely crucial to everything that we are going to do in terms of continuing to be able to deliver the developments and jobs that all our constituents want. Instead, we continue to reward energy companies who made £30 billion of profits before tax from the energy system in 2024. This is the last available analysis that we have true figures on. That means that the average UK household gives £500 a year to the energy companies' profits. The Government of Norway makes an excellent £5.9 billion pounds from UK households, and the second biggest gas generator, Uniper, owned by the German Government, is also making a tidy sum.

Will you take an intervention?

Yes.

I'm enjoying your contribution very much on energy bills. You'll obviously remember, before the election, Ed Miliband promising that he would cut energy bills. Has that happened yet?

No, it hasn't happened—precisely, it hasn't happened, because we haven't decoupled the price of electricity from the global prices of gas. Don't worry, I'm sure that's exactly what he wants to do, but we haven't got the Government to do it yet. It's important to understand that that is the measure that needs to be taken.

At the moment, the profits are mainly going to foreign states, particularly France, Qatar and Denmark. The average profit margin in the energy sector is 23 per cent, three times above the economy average for profitability. Therefore, this is not a sustainable solution, and we need to keep asking for the change that is needed to encourage even more people to switch away from fossil fuels and to ensure that we can give our manufacturing industry and all our other companies the long-term investment in our sustainable energy systems, which are crucial to our future prosperity.

I think it's fair to say that the run-up to this budget has been the most chaotic I think I've ever seen in my adult life. We've seen policies floated, leaked, denied and then resurrected. We then saw the whole budget leaked by the Office for Budget Responsibility before the Chancellor even delivered it to the Houses of Parliament. This totally shambolic handling meant that the budget designed to calm the market achieved the very opposite, with the FTSE 100 plummeting. Labour in both Westminster and Cardiff seem intent on tanking out economy whilst talking about growth. It's akin to a rain dance, where they think growth will appear simply by talking about it, whilst creating all the conditions for recession, namely higher spending and higher taxation. Even the leader of the Liberal Democrats stepped off his log flume for an hour this afternoon—[Laughter.]—to tell the Chancellor that you cannot tax your way to growth. And if you need Ed Davey to tell you that, perhaps you have gone too far.

Our tax burden is now set to soar to 38 per cent of gross domestic product, the highest since world war two, with the OBR forecasting GDP down in every year of the forecast, from 2022 to 2029. The Chancellor's budget benefits bonanza will be paid for by hard-working taxpayers through their incomes, pensions and property, a million workers set to pay a higher rate of income tax through the freeze of income tax thresholds, a stealth tax affecting working people whilst funding an unsustainable rise in the benefits and state pension budget.

The two-child benefit cap will now be lifted, and we already have one in 10 working-age adults claiming personal independence payments, and a million extra universal credit claimants since the last budget. This is a budget for shirkers not workers, and we are the only party putting forward a conservative economic plan of high growth and low tax. The UK Government needs to get a grip on the huge sums of money squandered on things that nobody voted for, from the cost of illegal migrant accommodation, which has tripled to £15.3 billion, to the spiralling welfare budget, to the foreign aid going towards fixing Ethiopia's tax collection service. Raising taxes whilst wasting money is a total rejection of fairness, and again it demonstrates a Government that refuses to spend money on the productive bits, whilst indulging in the unproductive bit.

Before tax is raised by another penny, the UK Government needs to get their house in order, and yet we see no evidence of this, and, on this side of Offa's Dyke, only continued waste of hard-working taxpayers' money. Whilst families see their taxes go up, they see millions being spent on tree planting in Uganda. People feel that they are contributing more than enough already, and this budget as usual will hit Wales the worst. We already have the highest unemployment in 10 years at 5.7 per cent and economic inactivity at nearly 25 per cent, which is the worst UK. There is also potential for reduced Barnett consequentials and Welsh Government per capita spending on culture and sport—[Interruption.] I'll just finish this point. That's already amongst the lowest in Europe, and we can only expect that to get worse. Mabon.

I was unfortunate enough to listen to Nigel Farage speak on the television the other night and he sounded exactly like you're sounding now, so are you planning on joining Reform?

I don't know where you got that claim from. I'm sure if you saw Kemi Badenoch's response to the budget as well, you'd have heard similar messages to what I'm delivering in this speech. So, nice try, I must say.

We're also entering this autumn budget with borrowing costs at their highest in a generation, with the Institute for Fiscal Studies warning that the UK has lost market confidence because Labour has no credible plan for growth. Debt interest alone is heading towards £110 billion next year—money that could and should be going to front-line services, not plugging holes left by Labour's economic mismanagement. And these are holes left by Labour. After last year's £40 billion tax raid to close the black hole supposedly left by the previous Government, which Reeves said would be a one-off, she's now scrambling to plug an even bigger financial hole of £30 billion. Now they are raising taxes and saddling debt on our children and grandchildren who all have to pay for it.

Following the raft of tax rises in the last budget, Rachel Reeves is having to put up taxes again with a misleadingly named mansion tax, which is at a threshold of £2 million, which would apply to even some flats in Cardiff. It's also a tax on historic homes and buildings of historic and architectural interest, demonstrating again Labour's war on our heritage, which farmers are all too familiar with. And the pettiness of the UK Government and its unquenchable thirst for cash even extends to milkshakes—an absurd attempt at grabbing more tax, disguised as nanny-statism and concern for public health. Rachel Reeves—

Will you take an intervention?

I'm running out of time, but I will.

Great. The tax on milkshakes is just a baby step that needs to be taken, because all the ultra-processed food that is in most of the foods that people eat are from takeaways and from ready meals. Without that, the NHS is—[Inaudible.]

My only response to that, Jenny, is that your party is advocating a family farm tax, which, in the long run, will make us more reliant on processed foods, because farms will close. It goes back to the old adage of no farmers, no food, and we'll become more reliant on foreign markets, which we don't want to be the situation.

Llywydd, the Welsh Conservatives have set out the alternative that will boost growth and protect working families, a plan to scrap crippling business rates, cut income tax and rule out any new tax rises. Every other political party with representation in this Senedd is calling for more tax and more spend, from Labour's ongoing vandalism of our finances to Reform's support for ending the two-child benefit cap, to Plaid Cymru's plan for a version of this tax-and-spend budget on steroids, a suicidal push towards independence and a wealth tax that almost every other nation on earth has tried and has abandoned.

Llywydd, I urge all Members in this Chamber to vote with our motion and recognise this ongoing damage being inflicted on our public finances, restore fairness by cutting the huge amounts of waste before taxpayers are asked to fork out a single penny more.

Once again, in this budget, it does feel like Wales is an afterthought. There is no return of the billions owed from the HS2 funding misclassification, no movement on devolving the Crown Estate, no action on taxing the excess profits of major banks, no commitment to invest in tidal or offshore wind sectors, where Wales should be leading, not waiting. The news that Northern Powerhouse Rail will proceed in full risks Wales being left without a penny in consequentials, unless it is explicitly designated as an England-only project. Once again, Westminster is levelling up England using Wales's wallets.

I, like many here, welcome the long-overdue decision to scrap the two-child benefit cap. But let's be honest, it has taken a year of delay, after years of denying the evidence, and only after sustained pressure from many of us in the Siambr. If it is finally removed this April, it will be a hard-fought and overdue victory for families who have waited and suffered for far too long. But removing the cap alone does not address the wider reality. Wales continues to face some of the highest child poverty rates here in the western world, and many households remain under immense financial strain with little certainty about the months ahead.

While progress is made in some areas, I must raise the most pressing concern for many of my constituents, the future of our family farms, and the ongoing issues created by the so-called family farm tax. Yesterday, at the Royal Welsh winter show, I spoke to many farmers who feel completely left behind. They are worried about their future, their families and the communities that rely on them. The message from unions, accountants and supply chain partners is identical: people cannot plan, and they cannot invest—they are stuck in limbo. These are not wealthy estates. These are small, low-income, often multigeneration farms, where three or four generations work side by side. Land values have risen on paper, but incomes have not, and that mismatch is precisely what puts so many at risk.

We know that the Welsh Affairs Committee report is unequivocal. It unanimously calls for a pause until a Wales-specific assessment is completed. It also questions the Treasury's own modelling. Without detailed information on ownership structures, succession plans and gifting arrangements, the committee warns that the estimates lack precision and risk being misleading.

I've spoken with families who arranged their affairs exactly as they were advised to over many years. Elderly farmers now facing the dismantling of a lifetime's work. They cannot restructure those plans now. They are the ones who will be hit hardest and first, and the effects don't stop at the farm gate. When farmers pause investment, the whole rural economy feels it. This is happening while the industry is already grappling with falling livestock numbers, rising costs and trade deals that open the door to increased imports from Australia and New Zealand. There are practical, fair alternatives that would close loopholes exploited by large, multinational corporations without inflicting this damage on rural Wales. Yet, No. 10 refuses even to pause and look at the evidence: no new assessment, no willingness to consider.

As many have already said, I too cannot remember a budget that had a build-up that has been this chaotic and worrying for so many families and businesses. But this isn't really a surprise, considering just how unprepared this Government was. It is clear to everyone that this is a Government in crisis. It's a Government with a leader whose days are clearly numbered, with ambitious colleagues queuing up to replace him and a budget solely designed to buy him more time.

Last year the Chancellor promised that she would not come back for more taxes. It was repeated again and again and again. But that is just another one of her broken promises. It's incredibly telling that the Chancellor announced a morning briefing to try and set up the groundwork for income tax rises just to u-turn after facing backlash from her own party; that shows the weakness in this Government. While I'm glad that income tax isn't rising, it is clear that the uncertainty that this UK Government has caused has terrified the market so much that the cost of Government borrowing hit the highest since 1998. Now, clearly, the UK Government does not have the strength to push through the necessary changes it needs to make to grow the economy and cut public spending. Instead, it's being forced to keep taxing and spending, to keep its own backbenchers in line. We saw that earlier this year with Labour's attempt to look at welfare spending and then their u-turn on winter fuel payments, which was cruelly levelled on our pensioners. This just demonstrated the extraordinary level of incompetence within the Labour Government.

Not content with £40 billion in tax rises in that year's budget, Labour's tax-and-spend policies have meant that the Chancellor now has to find an extra £30 billion. Now, the Chancellor will continue to try and blame everybody but her party's policies, but the simple truth is that there is no-one left to blame. And people will not be hoodwinked by constant reference to the last Government. I want to be clear that this budget will do little or nothing to improve the lives of the majority of people in Wales. Welsh families are facing a plethora of stealth taxes, while our farmers still face the horrendous family farm tax and our businesses have been hit with the rise in national insurance that has done nothing but harm our economy. The UK Government very clearly demonstrated that they have no empathy with our rural communities or our farming communities. It is astonishing that Labour are now coming for people's pensions and savings through the taxing of salary sacrifices and the slashing of cash ISA limits. This Government clearly is doing its best to squeeze every penny it can from hard-working families.

Well, Gordon Brown was the architect of austerity. He broke the economic rule that requires Governments to reduce spending as a proportion of GDP when an economy is growing in order to increase spending as a proportion of GDP when an economy is slowing. He ignored the IMF when they forewarned that he should stop increasing spending as a proportion of GDP faster than the growth rate of the economy, and that the UK banking system was more exposed to sub-prime debt than anywhere else in the world, leaving the UK particularly exposed to the 2008 global financial crash. By 2010, the UK budget deficit was the worst in the G20 as a share of GDP, behind only Ireland and Greece in the EU. If you have a big deficit, the lenders own you and set the terms, and they would have imposed greater cuts if the UK had continued to grow deficit and, therefore, debt, as happened in Ireland and Greece, and as happened in 1976, when a Labour Chancellor was forced to go cap in hand to the IMF for a bail-out, requiring substantial cuts in spending. I remember it well.

Before his last budget statement in March 2010, the then Labour Chancellor Alistair Darling stated that austerity had already arrived. His March 2010 UK budget statement that followed recognised that the scale of the deficit meant the UK didn't have enough money, with Mr Darling admitting that Labour's planned cuts in public spending would be, quote, 'deeper and tougher' than in the 1980s. The consequence was the austerity inherited by the new UK Government in 2010. Although the deficit was then virtually cleared in a decade, the subsequent financial shocks caused by the global pandemic and the global cost-of-living crisis generated estimated borrowing of over £400 billion. Despite this, in 2024, the outgoing UK Government left the incoming UK Government deficit levels only 40 per cent as a share of GDP of those inherited in 2010 by the Conservative UK Government, and inflation at the Bank of England's target rate of 2 per cent.

And then came Rachel from accounts, the 'grim Reever', whose budget decisions remain the No. 1 barrier to economic growth and the No. 1 domestic contributor to cost-of-living increases, stoking inflation, with borrowing costs hitting a 27-year high. This summer, leading economists, including a former head of the National Institute of Economic and Social Research, and a former member of the Bank of England's Monetary Policy Committee, highlighted the risk of a repeat of the crisis in 1976. Although Rachel Reeves has vowed today to go further and faster to kick-start the economy, the final official figures before the budget show slower than expected economic growth, at just 0.1 per cent between July and September. Meanwhile, Government borrowing reached £17.4 billion in October, higher than expected, with debt now nearly 100 per cent of GDP. Borrowing for the financial year to date has now reached £116.8 billion, nearly £10 billion more than the OBR forecast in March. And prices are still rising faster than expected, with inflation at 3.6 per cent, well above the Bank of England's 2 per cent target. Analysts, including the Bank of England, have said that Labour's tax rises last year have hindered growth and employment, adding to inflationary pressures and hitting tax receipts. That's why we're facing a £20 billion shortfall. Her tax and spending announcements today will only exacerbate this, with forecast GDP growth lower than expected and the tax burden to hit a record high, at 38 per cent of GDP.

Before I call the Cabinet Secretary, knowing you as I do, Mark Isherwood, I'm sure you didn't mean for the reference to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to be in any way interpreted as a sexist comment, but some of us would have taken it, possibly, as such. So, can I just ask that you refer to the Chancellor—any Chancellor of the Exchequer—by her full name, as elected to the House of Commons?

The Cabinet Secretary for finance to make his contribution.

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. In the time I've got, I'll try and respond to some of the main points made in the debate, and then set out the Government's response to today's budget.

Well, Sam Rowlands opened the debate with a reprise of his greatest grievances from last year's budget. In fact, quite a number of Members appear to have decided that they'd prefer to talk about last year's budget than this year's budget—a budget, Sam Rowlands said, that made the situation worse, not better. But, in today's budget, the OBR revised its growth forecast for next year's economy up. The Bank of England confirmed its forecast that inflation will continue to come down. And the budget brings borrowing costs down for the nation as a whole.

Sam said that the Conservatives have a credible plan. But, as ever, it was hard to believe that his heart was really in it, because he knows that, when he says that the Conservative Party would bring taxes down, what people remember is that, under a Conservative Government, taxes went up to a 70-year high. When he says that, in the last quarter—the very last quarter of 14 years—inflation was at 2 per cent, what people remember is that, under the Conservative Government, inflation was, for a year, at 11 per cent. And when he says that a Conservative Government would bring stability to the economy, what people remember is that rollercoaster six weeks of a Liz Truss Government. The idea that, outside this Chamber, people believe that the Conservative Party has a credible plan flies in the face of everything that led to the election result in July of last year.

And when it comes to that credible plan, what have we learnt, Llywydd, this afternoon? Well, we've learnt that you don't have to scratch very far to find that the nasty party is alive and well here in Wales. You only had to listen to the dog-whistle contribution of Gareth Davies to know exactly that. What was Sam Rowlands's idea of how to bring economic stability? It was to bring welfare spending under control. Well, I know what that means, and so do people in Wales. It means taking money away from people who have the least in order to bolster the incomes of those who already have the most. That's what lies behind today's Tory party attack on the very, very welcome plan in the Chancellor's budget speech to remove the two-child benefit cap.

Will you take an intervention?

Are you taking an intervention from Gareth Davies?

Yes, of course.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. You've been going for three and a half minutes, and all you've done is blame the Conservatives for your party's budget today. Would it not be wise to use this time that you've got responding to the debate saying what your assessment of this budget is, and your assessment of what that means for the people of Wales? Would that not be a better use of Senedd time, rather than blaming a Government that's not even in power any more?

Llywydd, I'd probably decided not to say this, but, when I listened to Mark Isherwood's historical ramblings and his attack on Gordon Brown, I was reminded of what Denis Healey said about being attacked by Geoffrey Howe—that it was like being savaged by a dead sheep. I'm reminded of that again in Gareth Davies's intervention. I'm replying to a Conservative Party debate, Llywydd. I think I'm entitled to point to some of the flaws in the contributions of Conservative Members here this afternoon.

Heledd Fychan began by repeating a canard that has become part of the canon of Plaid Cymru, and that is that somehow Wales is worse off under Labour than we were under the Tories. The truth of the matter is that the comprehensive spending review provides Wales with £5 billion more than we would have had under the plans left by Jeremy Hunt. She then went on to focus on what the budget doesn't say, rather than what it does say. I'm not surprised at that. For Plaid Cymru, the glass will always be half empty, partly by temperament and quite certainly by political calculation.

Let me show, by contrast, what is in today's budget: £0.5 billion in extra investment for this Senedd over the spending review period; investment in the semiconductor cluster in south Wales; more money for Port Talbot; an AI growth zone, not just in north Wales now, but in south Wales as well.

Will you take an intervention? The First Minister said that she had a list of demands from the Prime Minister. She wouldn't name the list and she wouldn't say what was on that list. Can you confirm whether that list has been fulfilled, and what was the list?

Well, I can certainly confirm for you that AI zones in north Wales and south Wales were absolutely on the First Minister's list. She has made it a mission over recent months to emphasise the opportunities that come for Wales through artificial intelligence, and now we have zones north and south in order to make sure that that defining development—. That is a defining development of the future of our economy. I'm really surprised that Plaid Cymru does not want to welcome the fact that there will be thousands of jobs in Wales preparing us for that future, making sure that we are in the best possible place to take advantage of the many opportunities that can now come to Wales.

I'll tell you something else that was on the First Minister's list, and that was that we should see changes in Wales's fiscal flexibilities. For nearly a decade, we have been stuck with the figures that were negotiated in 2016. For the first time in that decade, we now have an uplift in our annual capital borrowing limits, a further year of unfettered access to the Welsh reserve, and, maybe most importantly of all, a commitment to uprate every year, in line with inflation, the figures that give us the flexibility we need to manage our own affairs.

Let me just say something, Llywydd, about the very important decisions that the Chancellor announced today that will make such a difference in the lives of so many families here in Wales: the 160,000 workers who will benefit from the increase in the national living wage and the national minimum wage; the fact that there will be a £150 reduction for households up and down the country in their energy costs in the coming year; the fact that pensioners here in Wales will see their incomes go up by £575 a year as a result of today's budget; and, most of all, for those of us who came into politics in order to make sure that our children have the best possible start in life, the fact that 70,000 children in Wales will benefit from the abolition of a two-child limit. We've had a decade under austerity when child poverty—[Interruption.]

Thank you very much for taking an intervention, Cabinet Secretary. So, you're highlighting some of the things that came in the budget today, but I was very disappointed that we did not see a u-turn on the family farm tax, even though your own Government and some of your own backbench Members have called out the family farm tax. I know Mabon ap Gwynfor asked you about the list. So, I'm just interested: was the family farm tax u-turn on that list, and is the Government disappointed that the UK Government have not reversed this policy?

Well, the Welsh Government's position on family farms was set out in letters from my colleague the Deputy First Minister in June and September of this year. The fact that the budget did not say something on family farm inheritance tax does not mean that those conversations haven't been had and aren't continuing.

What the budget will mean is that those children who, under a Conservative Government, saw their future getting bleaker year on year will now see their future made better by a Labour Government. Child poverty having gone up inexorably will now come down here in Wales. Sam Rowlands said that the national decisions in the budget matter deeply to Wales. Well, I agree with him there, and so will those pensioners, and so will those households with their bills going down, and so will those children who see their future made better. That's what this budget delivers, and that's why this budget is a good budget for Wales.

Sam Kurtz to close the debate.

Diolch, Llywydd. It would be hilarious had it not been so tragic. The briefings on the budget ahead of time, the u-turns followed by u-turns, and an OBR projection released 45 minutes before the Chancellor of the Exchequer even had the opportunity to stand at the despatch box. As I said, it would be hilarious were it not so tragic. It is a disaster.

'We are on the wrong side of every statistic, argument, policy and public opinion'.

Not my words, but the words of a senior Labour figure. Forty-three separate tax rises coming in this budget, equating to £26 billion. This is the largest tax burden in a generation. And we heard about electricity pricing from Jenny Rathbone, and that promise from Ed Miliband before the election of a saving of £300. Bills ending up £200 more expensive and the changes from today's budget saving approximately £70. So, that, in my arithmetic, is energy bills are still £130 more expensive under a Labour Government.

And on the family farms tax, I will take no lectures or be patronised for the concern, heartbreak and terror felt by rural communities at the impact of the family farm tax. And while those conversations may have been had and may still be being had, those conversations today fell on deaf ears, as farmers saw no respite to this cruel, callous policy.

Failing to deliver for the people of Wales was on the order paper today, and I'm pleased that Plaid Cymru and the Liberal Democrats are supporting that, because it certainly does fail the people of Wales. Why? Because of that tax burden reaching a record high. Why? Because the squeezed-middle SMEs are being asked to do more and more and more. We are seeing the income tax thresholds frozen, meaning more workers will be dragged into higher tax rates. Growth forecasts downgraded. We've seen the welfare bill go up to £11 billion. Electric vehicles, lauded as the saviour, we've seen their increases on mileage rates going up. We've seen property dividend and savings tax up 2 per cent. We've seen gambling taxes increasing. We've seen council tax surcharges on 2 million homes.

And what's interesting about that policy—[Interruption.] I won't take an intervention for this point. I will in a second. But what's interesting about that policy is it's purely the politics of envy, because that policy will raise less money in taxation than it takes to administer. That is purely the politics of envy, to come in with a policy that will raise less money than it will actually cost to deliver. How economically illiterate is this Government?

Will you take an intervention?

I'll take the intervention now, Jenny.

I'm surprised that you're attacking the gambling tax. I would have thought we'd all welcome that. In the context of the fact that the NHS has seen a 130 per cent rise in referrals since January for people with a gambling addiction, and it now affects one in four Britons, why would we stand aside and allow these companies just to make their profits on other people's misery?

Taxation, taxation, taxation is the answer to every single one of the questions when you ask a Labour Member. More tax, squeeze people for every penny that they have, because the state is the best arbitrator of spend. As Conservatives, we believe the individual is the best arbitrator of their money. That the pound in the pocket is worth more than the pound in the Treasury. It's up to the individuals.

I'll end, Llywydd, with this. I started with a quote and I'll end with a quote: 'We don't know what we're doing on the economy.' I didn't realise that Lee Waters was speaking for all Labour Governments. Diolch, Llywydd.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? Are there any objections? [Objection.] There are objections. We will, therefore, defer voting until voting time.

That brings us to voting time. And unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, we will move directly to our first vote. And that first vote is on item 6: debate on the petition 'I demand a full public enquiry into the closure of Welsh Air Ambulance bases in mid and North Wales'. And I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Carolyn Thomas. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 24, five abstentions and 20 against. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

The final vote this afternoon is on item 8: the Conservatives' debate on the UK Government budget. I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Paul Davies. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 25, no abstentions, 24 against. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

The next item of business is the short debate. And I call on Peter Fox to speak to the topic that he has chosen. Peter Fox.

Diolch, Llywydd. My theme for today's short debate is 'Sowing the Seeds: Wales's journey to a sustainable food system.' And I'm happy to give a minute of my time to Sam Kurtz, James Evans, Jenny Rathbone and Sam Rowlands, time allowing.

Across Wales, food is much more than what we put on our plates. It is the foundation of our health, our economy, our culture and our rural way of life. Yet the way we currently plan, produce, access and value food is fragmented. We face rising diet-related ill health, pressures on farming families and increasing demand on public services. At the same time, we have extraordinary natural assets, passionate producers, and a deep community pride in the land that feeds us. My debate is about how we bring those strengths together, how we create a truly holistic, coherent Welsh food system that works for our farmers, our communities and our future generations. The challenge then is addressing the weakening link between production, health and economic resilience.

We're all aware of the worsening health picture: obesity levels continue to rise and we see that type 2 diabetes is increasing among adults, and shockingly among young people too. Diet-related illness is now one of the most significant contributors to pressures on our NHS. We cannot keep treating the consequences without reshaping the system that drives them.

At the same time, the backbone of that system, our family farms, are under immense strain. Farm businesses face uncertainty over future support frameworks, rising input costs, major transition in land management expectations, and now deep concern over potential changes to agricultural inheritance tax.

For many Welsh farmers, especially smaller family farms, inheritance tax relief is not a windfall; it is the only mechanism that allows land, stock and business assets to pass from one generation to the next without triggering a crisis that forces sales or fragmentation. If we allow farming families to lose confidence in their future, we risk hollowing out the rural economy, losing domestic food production capacity and weakening the very communities who safeguard our landscapes. So, in my mind, a sustainable Welsh food system must start with sustainable Welsh agriculture, which requires sustainable farmers.

We all know that farming is not just an economic activity. It underpins our culture, our heritage, environmental stewardship and community identity. A sustainable food system must therefore maintain a strong, viable family farm structure across Wales, but it must recognise the strategic importance of domestic food production. It should reward high-standard sustainable practice without creating unmanageable burdens and ensure generational succession is possible and encouraged.

The farming industry needs clarity and stability. Rural Wales cannot be expected to deliver food security, environmental recovery and wider social value if the very viability of the businesses charged with delivering these things is continually uncertain. Welsh food system reform must place agriculture at the centre, and not as an afterthought to public health or community priorities, but as the essential foundation that enables them.

The Government's community food strategy contains positive elements: its support for community growing, better local procurement, food partnerships and improved access to nutritious food. These initiatives matter. They can help strengthen resilience and engage citizens directly with the food system. But community action cannot substitute for strategic national leadership. Without a whole-system approach, one that connects agriculture, health, the environment, public protection, planning, education and economic policy, we will continue to chase symptoms rather than address root causes.

I thank Peter Fox for giving me a minute of his time. The title of this, 'Sowing the seeds: Wales's journey to a sustainable food system', got me thinking of the definition of 'sustainability', because 'sustainability' means the sustainability of our rural communities, it means that they can survive, it means the sustainability of our culture, it's the sustainability of our language, and the sustainability of that fabric that underpins rural Wales, which is agriculture.

After today's budget, and with so much turbulence in the sector at the moment, I do worry for the future of the sector. We've seen those tragic stories of farmers denying themselves cancer treatment in the hope that they don't burden their families with the family farms tax by April of next year. That is callous. That for me is unbearable, that a party would bring forward a policy that would inflict such pain on the population it is due to represent. That is shared amongst the whole sector, and those outside of the sector as well who know the impact of this.

I'd like to end by commending Peter for his relentless work since his election to this place on providence for food production. On that food Bill of his, the Deputy First Minister said, 'This is a Government Bill'. Now he's in Government, he may have wished to have brought it forward, but he hasn't, Peter. You'll hold him to that, I'm sure. But that Bill that Peter brought forward should underpin future policy on how we make sure that the Welsh food system is sustainable.

Thank you very much, Peter, for bringing this debate forward this evening. One thing that I care about is the sustainability of our food system here in Wales, and making sure we've got sustainable numbers of livestock going through our abattoirs. What we are seeing—I'm sure it's fresh in the Deputy First Minister's mind, because I know Hybu Cig Cymru raised this with him when he was at the winter fair—is that the numbers of livestock going through our markets are declining. The critical mass of lamb and beef is going down.

Some of the abattoirs, not just in Wales, but across the country, are reducing from five days to four days because they cannot get that critical mass of livestock numbers through those abattoirs. If we are going to have a truly sustainable food system here in Wales and across the United Kingdom, where we're not relying heavily on imports, we need to make sure that we have got those livestock numbers coming through our abattoirs to make sure that jobs are not just provided in that sector, but also in the agricultural sector as well.

I'd like to hear from the Deputy First Minister, now he's had time to recover from the winter fair and think more about critical mass, how he's going to address this and how the Welsh Government is going to address it going forward.

Thank you very much, Peter, for your relentless focus on this important subject. In the absence of any serious action to use fiscal measures to control big food coming from the UK Government, one of the things we can do in this country is improve breastfeeding rates. That would instantly attack the rates of childhood obesity, which are really shameful. It would also have long-term benefits for people's well-being and prevent hard-pressed mothers from having to pay up to £16 a tin for infant formula, when they actually wanted to breastfeed. It really is a shocking tax on motherhood.

We're investing £93 million a year on free school meals for primary schools, and we need to accelerate the production of Welsh veg and fruit to contribute to the foundational economy and enrich the nutrition of our pupils, rather than having food made with bags of processed food, made goodness knows where.

Thank you, Peter, for this short debate today. I just wanted to contribute from a slightly different place. I have the privilege of chairing the cross-party group on faith in this place and we—. Excuse me, I think I've swallowed something strange there. Excuse me. At our last meeting—. It sounds like I'm getting emotional, but I'm not at all. I need some water, but my glass is completely dry. At our last meeting we had a contribution from Trussell, who are the foodbank charity—[Interruption.] Oh my goodness. Can I start again, Deputy Presiding Officer?

You can.

Very good of you—thank you very much. I have the privilege of chairing the cross-party group on faith in this place, and at our last meeting we had Trussell make a presentation. They're clearly at the sharp end of where food strategy is not working right, because far too many people in Wales are relying on foodbanks to get the food they need on a day-to-day basis. It really struck me that 99 per cent of foodbanks that are delivered in Wales through Trussell take place through churches, and they do sterling work, week in, week out, supporting people in our communities, but that is not sustainable. And to credit Trussell, their No. 1 ambition is to end the need for foodbanks in Wales. They want to do themselves out of a job because they recognise that foodbanks are not sustainable. I wonder whether the Cabinet Secretary and Deputy First Minister would, first of all, recognise the good work that takes place in faith groups like churches in alleviating hunger in our communities, but also recognise the ambition of people like Trussell to end the need for foodbanks and see that there's a link between our food strategy and what has become a scourge in our community, which is the necessity of having those foodbanks.

I call on the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs to reply to the debate. Huw Irranca-Davies.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I very much welcome the opportunity to respond to Peter's debate. He's often spoken in this Chamber on this matter in favour of a sustainable food system, and I've got to say that there is much in his contribution to agree with—as always, I have to say. I note that his contribution was about farming, but it was much broader than farming, which I really welcome as well. We've just heard contributions on diet and nutrition and on foodbanks and ending food poverty and making sure that the distribution of the food that we have is not going to waste but it's actually feeding people as well. I really welcome this as well. There's much I agree with. I can assure him that I and my colleagues and my officials are very much on the same page. Indeed, over the last few years we've worked tirelessly to bring sustainability to the forefront of food growing and processing and consumption in Wales. My response is going to be like-minded, covering a wide range of areas, which I hope he'll find helpful.

'Sowing the seeds' of a sustainable food system—the title of this debate tonight—is more than a metaphor; it's a call to action, indeed. Every decision that we make today about how we farm, but also how we eat, how we process, how we transport food and how we prepare for tomorrow's challenges has an impact on our now and our future. A sustainable food system balances many elements, as we've heard today: environmental protection with economic viability, food security with climate action, local resilience with global trade, fair livelihoods with affordable nutrition, traditional knowledge with innovation, and recognising that each element is deeply interconnected. From farm to fork, we are already building a more sustainable and more resilient food system, and we're beginning to see the first genuine green shoots of that action. Our strategic vision for the food and drink industry from 2021 and our Welsh Government food forum, which underpins 'Food Matters: Wales', bring together those policies, they drive our policies, ensuring that there is one direction of travel. I hope that you'll agree with me that we've made a very strong start.

Let me just highlight to you some of the main actions that have flowed from that and the initiatives and how they are collectively contributing towards the direction of this journey. At farm level, the sustainable farming scheme will transform how we support agriculture, because it will help farmers produce really good quality food, as they do, whilst also restoring nature and tackling climate change. It recognises at its heart that healthy soils, clean water, biodiversity are the foundations of our excellent food production. Just take, for example, the most recent addition to our strong support for the farming sector when I announced £3 million of indicative funding for organic farming at the winter fair at the Royal Welsh showground this week. It backs systems that work with nature, strengthens ecosystems and also secures the resilience of food supply for generations to come.

Thank you for giving way, Deputy First Minister. That's one of the key points, and you mentioned it there, the domestic market for shellfish. As an island nation, we actually underconsume seafood. So, what work are you doing around introducing seafood into public procurement? And something else that we do very well that is very healthy is game meat.

It's a very important point, because we have a large export market for some of our domestically produced seafood. I’m a north Gower boy. I’m from cockle areas, originally. Most of our produce from that, or a lot of the produce, actually goes for export, where there is a premium price to it. So how do we develop the local palates here in Wales, and the pride in our local Welsh food, so that we consume more here as well and we are willing to pay a decent price for it? I do eat cockles and laverbread, with a bit of bacon along with it as well. It’s the breakfast of champions, I have to say. But we need to develop that within the domestic market as well, but there's certainly a lot we can do in that.

For the food and drink industry, we've delivered significant support, focusing on carbon reduction, climate resilience, skills development and collaboration, through incredible initiatives—I have to say, leading initiatives—across the UK and Europe, such as the HELIX programme and sustainability cluster, and these make a tangible difference to driving the success of our food sector, and every investment we make in sustainable farming, in horticulture, in food processing and in community food systems is an investment, to be quite clear, in Welsh jobs, Welsh communities and in Welsh futures. And we're even looking, Dirprwy Lywydd, at how we transport our food. We are driving that shift that we need to do to sustainable transport and reducing reliance on high-emission freight. So, this includes the vehicle emissions trading scheme, which mandates zero-emission targets for cars and vans, complemented by the programme that is called Moving to Zero, which focuses on decarbonisation for vans and heavy goods vehicles. This is a journey we're on, but we're really set on it, and we've made a strong start, as I've mentioned, but we need to do much more.

We have to acknowledge that the world around us is very fragile and the food system in Wales is part of a big picture. Global supply chains are under increasing strain from conflict, from economic instability, and shifting trade relationships. We see this day by day when we watch the news. Events thousands of miles away have a direct impact on the prices of food on Welsh shelves, the cost of feed and inputs for Welsh farmers, and the cost of ingredients for the food manufacturing industry. And, of course, climate change is adding pressures too. We are seeing, as we often say, hotter, wetter and more unpredictable weather patterns. Flooding threatens farmland and our infrastructure. Droughts challenge water availability. New pests and diseases are emerging almost seemingly on a daily basis. These are not distant risks; these are present now, real, clear risks and dangers. They layer in additional stress onto a food system that's already challenged by global volatility, and our food system here is intrinsically linked, of course, to the UK-wide system and the deeply interconnected global systems, where shocks in one region will ripple right across the world.

So, as I said, we need to do more—more to prepare, more to increase resilience, more to adapt to the accelerating impacts of climate change and global changes. So, building on the existing activities I've described, what we will do is take the following additional steps on this journey, bearing in mind that this is a long journey and it's got to be a continuous journey that we go on, and the progress will be step by step by step, with each year building on the success of previous actions moving us along. So, to support local food production at all levels and to reduce food miles and to encourage the public to choose food produced here in Wales, we will launch a public campaign called Rooted in Wales. This campaign, developed with the support of community food partnerships and also with Climate Action Wales, will be the perfect opportunity to drive forward how we celebrate and take pride and we consume Welsh food in the communities where we live.

—for the future. I will give way. Sorry.

You didn't mention breastfeeding, which is so important. I wrote this: it helps prevent diseases in both infants and mothers, by providing antibodies, immune factors and beneficial nutrients. For babies, this includes a lower risk of infection, respiratory diseases, diarrhoeas and sudden infant death syndrome. For mothers, it reduces the risk of breast and ovarian cancers and, potentially, heart diseases and type 2 diabetes. I think it should be included, because it is preventative medicine. It prevents the diseases, both in children and in mothers. I think that will be very important. It doesn't need any technology, it doesn't need any money; it needs just to educate the public that breastfeeding is very important. Thank you.

I'm so glad I took that intervention, and thank you for that. You speak with not just experience as a Senedd Member, but also with your long years of experience and medical background as well. That actually demonstrates how what we need in the food system is the join-up across all of this—not one piece over here, one piece over there; we need it joined up and focused. I hope I've stressed—I haven't been able to cover everything today—how, along with the wider aspects of food, food matters to us in our daily lives, in our economy, in our culture as well, and pride of place. I thank Peter for leading this debate once again, and it's great to see this Senedd Chamber once again focusing on the importance of food and a joined-up approach to food here in Wales. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you, all, and that brings today's proceedings to a close.