Climate Change, Environment, and Infrastructure Committee

We'll begin at the beginning, as they say. The first group of amendments today relates to the environmental objective. The lead and only amendment in this group is amendment 165, and I call on Delyth Jewell to move and to speak to her amendment—Delyth.

Thank you very much, Chair. Good morning, all. Plaid Cymru welcomes this Bill. I would like to say at the outset that, yes, it's been long awaited, but it is such an important step forward that we're going to close this environmental governance gap that was left after Brexit. So, it is certainly something to be welcomed.

Crucially, the Bill also could empower Welsh communities in a way that would be revolutionary in a quiet way, giving people a real voice, a sense of agency, and the same to places that have suffered from environmental degradation and exploitation.

I will just say at the start, Cadeirydd, that I'd like to put my thanks on the record to numerous environmental groups in particular who have supported me in preparing a number of the amendments, as well as the Government with some of them as well: the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds, the Green Alliance, WWF, Wales Environment Link, Healthier Cymru, amongst others. Contrary to what we have heard in the past, I don't think we can hear enough from experts, so I'm very indebted to them for their support.

I speak to amendment 165. This would seek to strengthen the environmental objective by removing subsection (a). Experts in environmental law and governance have warned that the current wording would risk weakening the objective. Professor Maria Lee from University College London has highlighted that references to sustainable development and the well-being goals could dilute the focus on environmental protection. Legal advice from Kate Cook that was commissioned by the RSPB and the Green Alliance echoed the point and noted that the well-being goals already apply to Ministers and to public bodies under the 2015 Act.

Professor Bob Lee, who's chair of the environmental governance stakeholder group, also stressed that introducing economic considerations, even though, of course, these would be well intentioned, could overshadow the core aim of protecting the environment. Now, given the fragile state of our environment, this amendment seeks to ensure the Bill would prioritise environmental protection and avoid that potential dilution. It would keep the objective clear and focused, giving Wales the strong environmental governance it needs. I hope that Members will support it, though I look forward to hearing the Cabinet Secretary's comments. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Diolch, Delyth. Carolyn.

Could I also speak to this amendment? The second goal, the well-being goal, of sustainable development is often interpreted, in my experience, by public bodies as low carbon, renewable energy, solar panels, electrical charging, without much regard to the natural environment. And as has been said, I'd like to also thank the environmental non-governmental organisations who've have contributed and spoken up for nature—we need you to continue to do this. Thank you very much. They say it's difficult for environmental objectives to compete with social and economic objectives, as we're seeing from the way in which the UK Government is pursuing its growth mission and planning, so having that strong regard to the natural environment. So, I wanted to put that marker down now of my concerns, but we will at this stage be, sorry, voting against the amendment.

Diolch yn fawr. Okay. Jenny.

Well, I certainly don't want to see our countryside carpeted with solar panels; they belong on roofs and car parks. But, nevertheless, I'm concerned by this proposal to delete the reference to the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, around which we are all, all public bodies, have to be compliant. So, I look forward to seeing the wording that manages to navigate the path between those. But it needs to be really clear that the well-being of future generations Act has to be complied with.

Diolch yn fawr. No other speakers, so Cabinet Secretary.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Can I just say at the outset, first of all, my thanks to Members in advance for all their amendments and their contributions in the long day ahead of us today on this committee deliberation, but also what's come already, because it has helped us refine and shape some of our proposals coming forward already? But I also want to put on record as well my thanks to the many environmental organisations who've been intensely involved in the shaping of the Bill as it currently is, and also as it goes forward as well, and we seek to take what is a good Bill and make it an even better piece of legislation with the will of the Senedd. So, my thanks to everybody involved in this. I just want to assure you as well that we've considered all of what's coming in front of us today in great detail as well.

Let me turn to this particular amendment, Delyth's amendment 165. We understand the thinking of this, and we understand what you've heard from some of the voices—some of the voices—in response to your scrutiny of this on committee, but it is some of the voices. Let me make clear why we object to this amendment, and it does draw on some of the contributions of Members just now. So, the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 is an absolute cornerstone of Welsh legal and policy framework. It makes sustainable development a central focus for public bodies. It's not only well regarded here in Wales, it's internationally well regarded and it's lauded. We are praised for the fact that we have that on the statute book providing the framework for our approach in Wales. It requires public bodies to act in accordance with sustainable development principles, to consider long and short-term impacts and to improve the economic, social, environmental and cultural well-being of Wales by taking action to contribute to the well-being goals. Members won't need me reminding them of that, because we say this regularly in everything that we do.

The way the environmental objective has been drafted fully recognises this, so let me be crystal clear: the environmental objective is the attainment of a high level of environmental protection and an improvement of the environment. However, in the context of this objective, it is appropriate to set out examples of significant outcomes that can be achieved by taking action to contribute to the attainment of that objective. So, this is the role of paragraphs (a) to (d) of section 1(1), which complements the wider priorities and framework that policy makers must take into account here in Wales. If we remove this clear connection to the well-being of future generations Act, it would undermine this specific and very welcomed, I have to say, alignment between our Bill and the uniquely Welsh and internationally recognised and lauded legal and policy framework—the point that you so well made, Jenny. It may heighten the risks around inconsistency. It may develop, actually, a more siloed approach, which is what we spent many years working away from, those siloed approaches. It could potentially weaken the integrated approach that is promoted by the well-being of future generations Act, and the coherence of Wales's sustainability framework as a whole. So, I understand that this has been brought forward in response to some of the voices that have been made to committee, but it's not a consistency of voices that have made that point. There have been other voices as well who've said, 'Please stick with the well-being of future generations Act—that's important for the integration and the breaking down of silos.'

Thank you.

Thank you. Delyth to respond.

Thanks to all who've spoken.

Firstly, I agree utterly that the 2015 Act is a cornerstone. In many ways, that is why the amendment—it might sound perverse, but that's why it was laid, because I think that a number of the experts who gave evidence to us felt that, because of its essence, because of how central it is, it would already apply. So, just to reassure Jenny, the amendment wouldn't in any way seek to negate the application of the Act. I would never support that myself.

I do understand the Government's perspective on this, of course. The risk that this was trying to guard against would be that a Government in the future could misinterpret, potentially wilfully misinterpret, the need to focus on the environment, and use this as a potential way of doing that.

I accept that this is not going to pass at this stage. If Members before Stage 3 had any thoughts about other ways that we could seek to re-bolster the centrality of the environment without having to risk doing what the Cabinet Secretary has set out here, I'd really appreciate if we could have some discussions before Stage 3, but I appreciate what has been said. Diolch yn fawr.

Diolch yn fawr. Okay, so the question is that amendment 165 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There's an objection, so we'll move to a vote. So, those in favour of 165, please show. Three. And those against. Three. So, it's a tied vote and I use my casting vote in the negative, that is against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii). Therefore, amendment 165 is not agreed.

Okay, we'll move on to the second group, then. The second group of amendments relates to the environmental principles and associated duties. The lead amendment in this group is amendment 55, and I call on Janet Finch-Saunders to move and speak to the lead amendment and the other amendments in the group. Janet.

Diolch yn fawr. Prior to doing that, I just want to say that I was very pleased to support the previous amendment by Delyth Jewell. As a committee here it's our job to scrutinise any law going before this committee and this Senedd, and I agreed with your intentions.

I'm also very pleased that this Bill is before us. As a member of the Welsh Conservative group, we've long called for legislation that secures in law environmental governance, and I would endorse all the thanks that have gone to those that have come forward as witnesses as the earlier stages have gone through, but also those who've taken time to meet with us as Members, and point things out sometimes, because legislation can be quite onerous when it's going through the stages without their help and support. I think it makes now for a better Bill, I believe.

The fact, however, that some 160 amendments have been tabled does question whether this actual legislation has been framed well enough to actually ensure that there are no loopholes or misinterpretations going forward on the law. For me, what I'm looking for is something that will not allow those who pollute our environment, be it on land, the sea, or our rivers—. Too often Wales has been, in terms of environmental protections, seen as a soft touch. We've seen it ourselves in our constituencies when high-risk pollution events take place. I hope that this law, as it goes through and it's shaped and amended, will give us all assurance and put those safeguards in place.

So, I move my amendments 55 and 56. These amendments insert additional environmental principles into section 2 of the Bill. The precise meaning of these principles and how they relate to existing amendments' principles in section 2 of the Bill—. Dr Victoria Jenkins has already summed up certainly what I believe, and most of us do. I agree with the Countryside Alliance that there would be merit in including these proposed principles in the Bill. And let's be honest, this should not be a political—. We'll all vote together because of this, that and the other. At the end of the day, we have the opportunity, as scrutineers of this legislation, to get it right now. This stage is very important to make sure that we've got all the protections in place.

These will ensure that we will leave the environment in a better place than when we found it, which is what we're all aiming to do, and recognise the interconnection of areas such as water catchment areas, wildlife corridors and the marine environment, which is too often overlooked. When we talk about the protection of our environment, too often it is seen as on land, when our rivers are crucially important to ensure there's no pollution. And the same for our seas. I encourage you all to support these amendments. Diolch.

Diolch, Janet. Any further speakers? Julie.

These are amendments 55 and 56, which we would oppose. And I believe some of the environmental bodies also oppose those because they would add principles to the list of environmental principles in section 2, and they're not environmental principles, and would substantially weaken the intention of Part 1 of the Bill, which is to embed environmental consideration into policy making. So, for that reason, we would go along, really, with what some of the environmental groups are saying and oppose those proposals.

Thank you, Julie. And apologies to Delyth—I should have called you as a Member with amendments in this group, so I'll call you now.

Don't stress, you're fine. It was nice to hear Julie's voice. Diolch, Cadeirydd. I speak principally to amendments tabled in my name in this group, firstly. Amendments 121 and 122 would be aimed at bringing clarity to what the new duty on Welsh Ministers to have special regard to environmental principles will actually apply to. At the moment, the Bill doesn't explain what is meant by 'policy', and that could risk confusion. By setting out a non-exhaustive list, we think that we could give Ministers and stakeholders a clear understanding of when that duty is engaged to avoid inconsistent practice, as well as legal uncertainty.

This clarity would be especially important, as we, again, might have a new set of Ministers in the next term, potentially those who would not be necessarily as familiar as members of this committee with the purpose of the duty. We've already seen in England that a lack of transparency around the equivalent duty can stem from uncertainty about what counts as policy. Now, these amendments would help avoid Wales repeating those situations. If the Government isn't minded to put this on the face of the Bill, the same clarity I think does need to be set out clearly in an explanatory memorandum, and in the environmental principles and integration statement.

Now, to move on to amendments 123, 124 and 125, these would build on this same principle by strengthening the duty on public authorities, so that a higher standard of special regard would apply across all of their functions, and that would ensure that environmental principles are properly and consistently considered in decision making, rather than being treated as an optional extra. Raising the standard in this way would help put environmental protection at the heart of how public bodies operate, and ensure that principles are genuinely embedded in practice.

Now, to turn to amendment 126, this looks at how this would be followed through. It would introduce a clear requirement for Welsh Ministers to review how Part 1 of the Bill is operating in practice, and to report on its contribution to the environmental objective. As it stands, the Bill doesn't require any truly meaningful review of how the principles or duties are working. Ministers are only given a very narrow power to look at integrating the environmental protection statement 'from time to time'. That's how it is worded. Now, this was raised with us in evidence that that was nowhere near enough. We've looked at how this has worked elsewhere. The Environment Act 2021 did not require a review on the face of the Act, but that was only because the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs publicly committed to carrying out one within two years. That early review has, as I understand it, been important in shaping how the duty was implemented.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Cabinet Secretary.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Thank you for the comments of committee members. There's quite a lot of detail within some of these amendments, so I'll need to respond in some detail to each in sequence, if that's okay.

In response to Janet's opening remarks, we really do welcome as a Government all the amendments being brought forward. Some of them, during the course of the day, I'll explain with, hopefully, a considered and rational reason why we wouldn't support them. But we welcome them, even if they are there to seek to get the Government's clarity on record about what the intentions behind the legislation and individual clauses are. So, whether we're here till midnight, I'm more than happy to do that for the purposes of scrutiny. Well, not midnight perhaps.

Let me turn first of all to amendments 55 and 56. Julie made the comments, which I would agree with. I don't understand that these have any significant support from environmental organisations out there, from our discussions with them, but I'll explain why we can't support amendments 55 and 56. The four environmental principles that are in place, and the duty to integrate environmental protection included in the Bill, are based on concepts that have developed over decades. This includes through international agreements and European Union and domestic legislation. They are very well developed, and very well understood.

We have also placed a strong 'special regard' duty on Welsh Ministers and on NRW to apply these very well-understood and well-developed principles. There's real clarity and real purpose behind it. If we add further less developed, less well-worked, less well-understood principles in this list, then what we could end up doing is risking significant uncertainty and barriers towards effective delivery of what this legislation is trying to do.

The environmental principles and the integration duty presented in the Bill are supported, as they are right now, by a wide range of stakeholders. A case for additional principles has just not been made throughout our engagement with stakeholders—nor have I, by the way, noted it being raised during the course of the committee scrutiny either, with any great support. Furthermore, relevant aspects of these principles are already captured, to different extents, and to a more effective and appropriate degree, within the environmental objective and the duty to integrate environmental protection.

For example, non-regression is generally interpreted to require that there should not be a rollback in environmental standards. The environmental objective, however, aims, through relevant duties in Part 1, at the attainment of a high level of environmental protection and an improvement of the environment. This goes beyond non-regression in terms of preventing any lowering of ambition, and it focuses on contributing to a high level of environmental protection and actual improvement to the environment. So, I consider these amendments, although I understand why you've brought them—. I hope you'll understand that not only are they not necessary, they could be highly detrimental to the policy outcomes that are being sought.

It's very important to provide this threshold, given the very strong effect of our duties, which apply broadly across the full range of Welsh Government policy making. It would not be appropriate to apply the duties when making policies if there is no or negligible effect on the environment. I can't put it clearer than that. If we did not provide this threshold, we risk creating a situation where policy makers are straining to meet the duties, or turning it into something of a tick-box exercise. This could severely undermine the impact and the effect of the duties that we put in place. It is imperative that, instead, we empower policy makers to engage constructively and meaningfully with these new duties.

If it's helpful, Chair—I've referred to this, I think, before in committee—one of the possible examples—it's difficult, sometimes, to speculate—is a piece of legislation the two of us on this committee are intimately familiar with: the reasonable chastisement of children and young people. That is one of those areas of policy where it would be quite possible to go, 'Well, is that a no or negligible effect on the environment?' Yes? Or do we say to those involved with that, 'You now are going to have to go through a process where you have to—'. Yes, okay, I think I've made the point.

It's important to note, in practical terms, there are very few policies that would have that no effect or negligible effect on the environment, and so it is considered likely to be very rare that the duty will not apply to Welsh Government policy making. However, we want to ensure that the determination as to whether a policy has no or negligible effect on the environment is subject to careful consideration.

Whilst I appreciate it's not within this group, Chair, I consider this approach will be well supported by the non-Government amendment 51, which is in front of us today later, in the name of Carolyn Thomas, which would add a new requirement on Welsh Ministers to explain, in the environmental principles and integrated environmental protection statement, how the Welsh Ministers propose to determine whether a policy has a negligible or no effect on the environment. This statement, of course, will be subject, in the proposal, to formal consultation and Senedd scrutiny, which is proposed by amendment 13, and like amendment 51, will be covered, I think, in the next group. I think that really gives the clarity and the substance to this.

It's also important to reflect the combined effect of the amendments that we're bringing forward in respect of the Welsh Ministers' duty to apply the principles. This approach will remove the wording

Diolch yn fawr. I call on Janet Finch-Saunders to reply to the debate.

Let's just go straight to the vote.

The question is that amendment 55 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There's an objection, so we will take a vote on amendment 55. All those in favour, please show. One. All those against. Five. That means that amendment 55 is not agreed.

Janet Finch-Saunders, do you move amendment 56?

I do.

Yes, there we are. The question is that amendment 56 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection, so we'll move to a vote. All those in favour of amendment 56, please show. One. All those against. Five. Amendment 56 therefore is not agreed.

I move amendment 3 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. So, the question is that amendment 3 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No objections. Amendment 3 is therefore agreed.

Okay, croeso nôl. Welcome back. Apologies for the technical issues. I understand that they have now been resolved.

So, we will start again with group 3. The third group of amendments relates to the environmental principles and integrating environmental protection statement. The lead amendment in this group is amendment 4 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary.

I move amendment 4, and call on the Cabinet Secretary to speak to the lead amendment and the other amendments in the group.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. So, the amendments in this group, tabled in my name, will work together to revise and enhance the procedural requirements applying to the preparation and publication of the environmental principles and integrating environmental protection statement, including the role of the Senedd. The Senedd will have the opportunity to review the statement and make recommendations, and the Welsh Ministers will be required to respond to those recommendations before the statement can be finalised, published and laid before the Senedd.

The amendments also provide for a clear deadline for the final statement to be laid before the Senedd and published no later than 31 March 2027, and require the Welsh Ministers to review the statement after each general election. Commencement timescales are also revised to provide for sections 6 and 7, other than subsection (1)(c), to be commenced two months after Royal Assent, and for sections 3 to 5 to come into force on 31 March 2027. This revised timescale accounts for the additional requirements associated with Senedd procedure.

If I turn to amendments 4, 6 and 7 in my name, these are technical amendments to refer to the environmental principles and integrating environmental protection statement, or the revised statement published under section 7 instead of section 6. On amendment 8, this amendment removes a reference to publication from section 6, as publication and other procedural matters are now dealt with under section 7, amendment 13.

I turn my attention now to two amendments in this group that I referred to in the previous group of amendments: amendments 50 and 51 in the name of committee member Carolyn Thomas. Amendment 50, this actually reflects CCEI recommendation 6—and I recognise that—and the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee recommendation 3, and it places a duty on Welsh Ministers to explain, in the environmental principles and integrating environmental protection statement, how they consider the environmental principles should be interpreted. So, for those reasons, I support this amendment.

And amendment 51 places a duty on the Welsh Ministers to explain, in the environmental principles and integrating environmental protection statement, how they propose to determine if a policy would have no or negligible effect on the environment for the purposes of section 3(4). So, as I've explained previously, section 3(4), inserted by amendment 5 in the previous group, provides that the Welsh Ministers' policy-making duty to have special regard to the principles and to integrate environmental protection does not apply where the policy in question would have no effect or negligible effect on the environment. So, this amendment in front of us now further supports amendment 5 by requiring Ministers to explain how would they propose to determine whether a policy will have that no or negligible effect on the environment and, for those reasons, Government would support that amendment.

If I turn to amendment 9, this amendment omits section 6(5) and section 6(6), which made provision for review of the environmental principles and integrating environmental protection statement, as alternative provision for review of the statement is now made in section 7, amendment 13.

On amendment 10 in my name, this is an amendment to reorder the texts and related matters. So, section 7(1) is amended to reorder that text, to make clear that the requirement to consult applies to the preparation of a draft statement, and as there is no longer a need to state at section 7(1) that the requirement to consult applies to a revised statement as section 7(11), inserted by amendment 13—bear with me—now makes clear that section 7(1) to (6) and 7(8) to (10) apply in relation to any revised statement. So, it's a technical but necessary amendment.

If I turn to amendment 58 in the name of Janet, this is the amendment that would add 'members of the public in Wales' to the list of persons that Welsh Ministers must consult. In my response to your committee, I highlighted that the duty to consult at section 7(1) already includes the scope to consult the public, and with the necessary flexibility to do so appropriately in the circumstances. Now, such consultation must, of course, be carried out properly and fairly. Imposing a legislative requirement to consult 'members of the public in Wales' in the way proposed in this amendment would not only be unusual, but it would also be very uncertain in scope. It is not clear, for example, Janet, how it would be possible to determine exactly what such a duty requires, or even when the duty has been adequately discharged.

So, I don't consider—bearing in mind there is the ability to consult already within this—that a further amendment to the Bill in this way is needed or appropriate. The consultation approach will be supported, by the way, by the amendments I have tabled in response to the committee's recommendation 9, which provides a role for the Senedd in considering the statement.

In respect of amendment 11 in my name, this amendment clarifies that the environmental principles and integrating environmental protection statement must be laid in draft before the Senedd.

Amendment 12 in my name omits the reference to a revised statement from section 7(2)(a), as this is no longer necessary, as section 7(11), inserted by amendment 13, states that section 7(1) to (6) and 7(8) to (10) apply in relation to any revised statement. The amendment also makes a minor change to refer to 'together with', instead of 'and'.

Amendment 13 in my name sets out a series of amendments to the procedural requirements relating to the preparation of the environmental principles and integrating environmental protection statement at section 7. These amendments, to make clear, reflect our response to recommendation 9 of this committee’s report, and they include a provision providing an opportunity for the Senedd to consider the statement and to submit recommendations to Welsh Ministers. The Welsh Ministers will be required to consider and respond to such recommendations before the statement can be finalised and published. Provision is also made about reviewing the statement and setting a deadline for laying and publication of the statement.

Amendment 37, I think, yes, not 36. Amendment 37 is in this group. Amendment 36 is in another group.

Sorry, let me just check. Let me just check.

Never mind. When you ran through them—

Yes. Yes, indeed. It's amendment 37—37.

Okay. There we are. Great. Diolch yn fawr. Thank you. I will now call on Carolyn Thomas to speak to the amendments in her name.

Thank you. I'd like to move amendment 50. The amendment imposes a new requirement on Welsh Ministers to explain in the environmental principles and integrating environmental protection statement how they consider the environmental principles should be interpreted. This strengthens and clarifies the application of this legislation to section 6, and reflects recommendation 6 of this committee's recent report. So, I hope that this committee—and the Minister has already said he will—supports this amendment today. Thank you.

And regarding amendment 51 as well—I'll take this at the same time—this amendment builds on an amendment brought forward by the Government relating to the new provision at section 3(4). This amendment imposes an additional requirement on Ministers to explain in the environmental principles and integrating environmental protection statement how they propose to determine whether a policy would have no effect or negligible effect on the environment. This will help to ensure further clarity around how the Government will apply the duty, and in particular how the Welsh Ministers will consider whether the threshold of no or negligible effect on the environment has been met. And given that this builds on the Welsh Government's own amendments, I hope it can be supported today, as it strengthens it. Thank you.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Thank you. Janet.

So, I'm going to move amendments 57 and 58. These amendments will ensure that the Welsh Ministers review the section 6 statement at least once every two years. While the environmental principles are already well recognised internationally, it is the statement that will determine their meaning and how that will be applied in a Welsh context. As the Deputy First Minister is aware, our climate change committee have raised several and serious concerns that, as drafted, section 6(5) provides the Welsh Ministers with complete discretion. Healthy Air Cymru and academics have also raised these concerns. This is extremely important, particularly as we go into elections. And it also holds the feet to the fire of any Welsh Government Ministers, going forward, certainly where we could end up in a situation after the next election with a new Government who may not be as committed to this legislation.

Amendment 58 requires Welsh Ministers to conduct public consultations on the section 6 statement, and I'm really, really determined to see more engagement with our public on such matters and, indeed, laws, going forward. Now, this has been called for by stakeholders such as RenewableUK, FUW, the Countryside Alliance, WWF Cymru and others. There is clearly major public interest in this, and I'm surprised that it wasn't incorporated into this. I remember clearly there being more support for it when we were taking evidence. Too often, our constituents feel so disenfranchised with the Welsh Government when legislation is going through, and indeed afterwards. If you take, for instance, major pollution incidents, when they occur, they're ignored. Reporting pollution incidents is seen to be very frustrating by individual constituents and, indeed, organisations such as Surfers Against Sewage. When they report pollution incidents—take a water pollution incident—the process of Dŵr Cymru informing NRW, as that's their duty, then action being taken is often seen as much too delayed. This, in turn, does destroy our environment. And I have to say that you never see, as an elected Member, any consequences for these pollution incidents, and there is ongoing damage to our environment. I actually do believe that not all politicians know everything, and we rely—. They are our eyes and ears in our community, as we are, and I do believe that our citizens should have a much stronger voice on environmental governance. Diolch.

Thank you very much. Jenny.

I think that we're in danger of overcomplicating the legislation in Delyth's amendments, because I think the explanatory memorandum is the place to define what policy means, or matters like that. I just feel that those amendments are potentially—. We've already got making policy; if those lawyers don't understand what all of that is about, they can go to the explanatory memorandum. I feel that there's a danger of weakening the legislation here.

On Janet Finch-Saunders's proposal in amendments 58 and 57, the whole purpose of this legislation is to set up the office of environmental protection, and clearly the office will be the vehicle for reporting breaches of the law, and the whole purpose of this office is to investigate serious issues such as you describe. I just feel that we're double-bagging here. There are already measures for consulting the public, but you don't need to do it on changing the shape of windows in a particular heritage building.

Thank you. The Deputy First Minister to reply to the debate.

Indeed. I've listened with interest to the contributions, and just to reflect on the final contribution from Jenny, I think that there is that danger of confusing the purpose and the intent of this piece of legislation, which is not to duplicate the role of existing regulators and their enforcement, including on things such as acute river pollution, and so on. We know that we've got to do more on that as well. But, within this legislation, there can indeed be a challenge to environmental law. So, if there is a systemic failure, if there is a failure in guidance that has been put out from Ministers in respect of river pollution or the regulator, NRW, in terms of river pollution, then that can be done, but this is not, Janet, an issue of saying that we're setting up another regulator to respond to a discharge into a stream on the River Taf in Carmarthenshire—it's not specifically that. So, it's horses for courses here. What we are trying to do is actually strengthen the voice not only of the new OEGW, but also the citizen within that, in order to raise, 'We have a failure in environmental law.' And it could be to do with a number of things, not just water quality. But, yes, the other aspect is that there is already the ability to consult and there are well-established doctrines within Welsh public bodies about how that consultation takes place. It's already in there, so why would we, in the phrase that's been used, double-up on that, double-bag it? It's already there, the ability to do it. So, I would say once again to the committee, I understand why this is being raised and there are ways in which to deal with those issues, whether it's river pollution, water pollution and so on, but on the question of environmental law, I think the proposals we have here and the amendments that we have put forward and the reasons why we're, with respect, opposing the two you've put forward, I've explained in my introductory remarks, Chair.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Thank you very much. Okay, we'll move to a vote, then. So, the question is that amendment 4 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No objection. Amendment 4 is agreed.

Delyth Jewell, do you wish to move amendment 121?

No, owing to what the Cabinet Secretary said about the explanatory memorandum, I will not. Thank you.

I move amendment 5 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary, and if amendment 5 is not agreed, then amendment 51 falls. So, the question is that amendment 5 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No objection. There we are. Amendment 5, therefore, is agreed.

I move amendment 6 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 6 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No objection.

Delyth Jewell, do you wish to move amendment 122?

No, for the same reason.

The same reason. Thank you. Diolch yn fawr. We'll move on, then. So, Delyth, would you wish to move amendment 123?

I would, please.

There we are. Okay. The question is that amendment 123 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There's an objection. We'll move to a vote. Those in favour of 123, please show. Three. And those against. Three. So, it's a tied vote and I therefore use my casting vote in the negative against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii), meaning that amendment 123 is not agreed.

Delyth, do you wish to move amendment 124?

Yes, please.

The question is that amendment 124 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There's an objection. We'll vote. So, all those in favour of amendment 124, please show. Two. And those against. Sorry, Janet? All those for—

Yes.

—124. So, we're three in favour of 124. And against. Three. Again, it's tied. Therefore, in accordance with Standing Orders, I use my vote in the negative, meaning that amendment 124 is not agreed.

Delyth, do you move 125?

Yes, please.

There we are. We move to a vote on—. The question is that amendment 125 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There's an objection, so now we move to a vote. All those in favour of amendment 125. Three. All those against 125. Three. So, again, it's tied and I use my casting vote, in accordance with Standing Orders, against amendment 125, which subsequently is not agreed.

I move amendment 7 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 7 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No objection. Amendment 7 is therefore agreed.

I move amendment 8 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 8 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No objection. Amendment 8 is therefore carried.

Carolyn, do you wish to move amendment 50?

I do.

There we are. The question is that amendment 50 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No. There we are. Amendment 50 is therefore agreed.

Carolyn again, do you wish to move amendment 51?

I do.

There we are. The question is that amendment 51 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No objections. Amendment 51 is therefore agreed.

I move amendment 9 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. Now, if amendment 9 is agreed, amendment 57 will fall. So, the question is that amendment 9 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There's an objection. Therefore, we move to a vote on amendment 9. All those in favour, please show. Six. And all those against. Well, there's nobody against, so, amendment 9 is agreed.

That means that amendment 57 therefore falls. Janet, do you wish to move amendment—? Amendment 57 has fallen, hasn't it?

Amendment 57 was agreed and 9 falls.

If amendment 9 is agreed, amendment 57 falls. Amendment 9 was just carried, six votes to zero, so amendment 57 falls.

I move amendment 10 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 10 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No objections.

Janet, do you wish to move amendment 58?

I do.

There we are. The question is that amendment 58 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Object. Okay, we'll move to a vote on amendment 58. All those in favour, please show. Three. And all those against. Three. The vote is tied, so I use my casting vote in the negative, in accordance with Standing Orders, meaning that amendment 58 is not agreed.

I move amendment 11 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 11 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No objections. Amendment 11 is therefore passed.

I move amendment 12 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 12 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No objections. Amendment 12 is therefore passed.

I move amendment 13 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 13 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No objections. Amendment 13 is agreed.

Delyth, do you wish to move amendment 126?

Yes. There we are. The question is that amendment 126 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection. We'll move to a vote, then. All those in favour of amendment 126 please show. Three. And all those against. Three. The vote is tied, so I use my casting vote against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Orders, meaning that amendment 126 is not agreed.

Okay, the fourth group of amendments, then, which relates to the establishment of the Office of Environmental Governance Wales and related matters. Now, the lead amendment in this group is amendment 78, and I call on Janet Finch-Saunders to move and speak to the lead amendment and the other amendments in the group. Janet.

I move my amendments 78 to 111. As fellow committee members will be aware, contributors emphasise that the OEGW's independence will be critical to its effective operation, given that its oversight role includes the Welsh Ministers. They did raise concern that, as drafted, the Bill lacks sufficient safeguards to ensure independence, particularly in the longer term. But I do agree especially with the point by the Green Alliance, and I quote,

'the absence of any explicit legal safeguards on OEGW independence leaves the body vulnerable to the political whims of future ministers'—

and this is the point I was getting to earlier as well on that point I made—

'who may be less well disposed to the OEGW, especially once it has started to ask difficult questions about any potential lack of compliance with environmental laws.'

I have been thinking about how we can significantly reduce the influence, and we've seen it in other organisations that we're told are independent, but, quite often, they feel their mandate, really, is to satisfy Welsh Government Ministers. So, the amendment in question provides that the OEGW's chairperson is appointed by Senedd Cymru rather than Welsh Ministers. Consulting the Senedd is not good enough; that happens with other roles currently, such as the chairman of Natural Resources Wales. I was in that scrutiny meeting, and, let me say—other members agreed with me at the time, other committee members—it was a complete farce, a complete waste of an hour's scrutiny. It was a done deal, if you like, and we were just there; yes, it was a farce.

So, this Senedd is now expanding to include 36 additional Members. With that increase, it can afford to take on some extra work. It is costing the taxpayers of Wales a considerable amount of money for those 36 extra Members, and I wouldn't have said that it's onerous work that will be placed on the shoulders of those 96 Members. I think it would be reasonable to say it would help safeguard a goal that we can all agree on, and that there is a huge need, for this legislation to be meaningful in any terms, for the OEGW to be independent of the Welsh Government.

Amendment 81—this amendment requires the Welsh Ministers to consult the Senedd's prevailing environment committee before making regulations to change the number of permissible non-executive members of the OEGW. Again, this is a measure to protect the independence, the need for which I've already outlined above.

Amendment 82 offers clarity, and the amendment does not conflict with the discretionary provisions facilitating staff transfers. What it does is disqualify a member of the staff of the Welsh Government from being a member of the OEGW. Again, this is a measure to protect the independence of the OEGW, the need for which I've already explained.

Amendment 83—this amendment removes the provision that limits a non-executive's term to two periods of office. This amendment provides that a person may serve more than one term, but this has been drafted as a discretion. In short, should the non-executive member be extremely effective at their role and wish to serve more than two periods in the office, why prohibit that in law? Good people who undertake good work and who are happy to remain on for more than two terms should be able to do so.

Amendment 111 ensures that the OEGW—gosh, this 'OEGW'—sets up a website. I'm sure that's going to, in itself, mean a lot to my residents or indeed any people living in Wales. But it ensures that the OEGW sets up a website and must list all public authorities subject to the body's oversight and this must be kept up to date to ensure no crossover of bodies and that accountability is kept. So, therefore, I will be voting against amendments 149, 118, 120, 41, 150, 49 and 36. Diolch.

Thank you, Janet, and I'm sure you didn't mean to suggest that our scrutiny or pre-appointment scrutiny of the newly appointed chair of NRW was a farce. You can describe the wider process in whichever way you choose, but, obviously, we were clearly undertaking our work diligently as a committee.

No, I actually agree with what I've said, because I came along thinking that I was taking part in an interview and that my views would be taken into account. They weren't.

Okay, fine. Well, you were maybe under somewhat of a misapprehension that it was—. The rules of our role in terms of pre-appointment scrutiny are clear. Your views around how meaningful that is in terms of Government deliberations and considerations is maybe one that others share, but not to cast aspersions on the committee's work, I'm sure. But thank you for your contribution. [Laughter.]

Right, Carolyn.

It's kicking off.

It is, yes.

Could I move amendments 118, 119 and 120, please, and speak to them? These amendments strengthen the role of the Senedd and the appointment panel for non-executive members of the OEGW and the OEGW's first chief executive. This is in accordance with the second option in this committee's recommendation on this topic in our recent report. The first amendment enables a Member of the Senedd to be part of the appointment panel for non-executive roles. The second and third amendments make the revised appointment procedure more workable from a practical perspective. The second amendment excepts the nominated Member of Senedd Cymru from being required to have the specific knowledge and expertise set out for the other panel members, because I would imagine that Senedd Members and the relevant Senedd committee would be likely to nominate a Member with some expertise under environmental law and policy, but this may not be guaranteed, and it's not necessary for this to be demonstrated in the same way as for the independent panel members.

The third amendment ensures that processes around the appointment do not get held up if there is not a timely response to the request for a nomination. The Senedd is therefore given 21 days, not including recess periods et cetera, to nominate a Member. If no nomination is received within that time, the appointment process may continue without the inclusion of a Member of the Senedd. I appreciate the constructive conversations that committee members have had with the Deputy First Minister on this topic of strengthening the Senedd's role in this process, and I hope the Government will be able to support these amendments today.

Diolch, Carolyn. Delyth.

Thank you, Chair, and I'm speaking to the amendments tabled in my name: 149, 150, 163 and 154.

So, to speak to amendment 149, firstly, this would ensure that any non-executive member of the OEGW can only be appointed with Senedd approval. This would act as a safeguard to strengthen the body's independence and it would mean that Ministers cannot appoint members alone. It would ensure greater transparency, I would argue, and democratic oversight, not to mention public confidence in the body. I believe this would be a preferable approach compared with amendments 78, 79 and 80. It would, in effect, result in a shared appointment process.

Now, on amendment 150, I would like to thank the Welsh Government for preparing this amendment, for working with me to table it. I really appreciate the constructive approach taken by the Government, taking into account a lot of the recommendations made by the committee. Now, to speak to amendments 150 and 163, they focus on ensuring that the OEGW is properly resourced. Amendment 150 would place a clear duty on Ministers to provide funding that's sufficient. I'd draw Members' attention to the fact that, in evidence, both the Office for Environmental Protection and the Environmental Standards Scotland emphasised how important such a duty is. Natalie Prosser, the CEO of the OEP, explained to us that it ensures ministerial attention on the budget and that committees can hold Ministers to account. In practice, it has helped secure adequate funding. Now, amendment 163, I think, complements this by requiring the OEGW to report in its annual accounts if it has not been properly resourced, and this transparency allows scrutiny by future committees and reduces the risk of political interference with its funding. Taken together, I think that they would work well.

And then finally in this group, amendment 154. This would remove the OEGW from section 6 of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. The OEGW is an oversight body and not a service delivery body, so, including it there, some have argued would be disproportionate. It could potentially distract from its core functions, notwithstanding the points, of course, that were made in the first group by other Members, which, of course, I take into account there. The auditor general confirmed that it is more comparable with bodies like the ombudsman and it couldn't be reasonably expected to set objectives across all well-being goals. Its relationship with the future generations commissioner is already covered through requirements in the Bill to avoid duplication. And I would just emphasise the points that I made in responding to the first debate, that this is not meant, in any way, to lessen the application of the future generations Act, but merely to ensure that its application doesn't have the perverse consequence of, were a future Government to look at it in a more sinister way, detracting from the environmental core objective.

Diolch yn fawr. Do we have any others? Julie, yes, and then Jenny.

Yes. I want to move amendment 117. This amendment is about strengthening the independence of the OEGW, and it makes express provision about the independence of the OEGW from Welsh Ministers by requiring Ministers to have regard to the independence of the OEGW when exercising functions in relation to it. I think that the independence of the body was one of the strongest themes that emerged during Stage 1, and we had lots of expressions of concern that the office would not be independent. So, I think this is an important amendment and I think we probably all agree that independence from the Welsh Government is absolutely crucial for the success of the OEGW. We know that this has got the strong support of the environmental groups, and we also note that Mark Roberts, CEO of Environmental Standards Scotland, called such a duty 'an invaluable safeguard'. So, we hope that the Welsh Government will agree to this amendment.

Thank you, Julie. Jenny, did you want to come in?

I'll start by discussing Janet Finch-Saunders' amendment around who should appoint this office of environmental governance. The pre-appointment hearings are delicate matters. There's no doubt that it is a difficult balance between scrutiny and not undermining the future role of the person who has been selected by the panel as the best person to fit the job. But it is a really important safeguard, because were the appointment panel to make a decision on somebody who simply wasn't able to convince the committee that they had the qualities to carry out that role, then you can use what is a pretty fierce and difficult to wield decision to say, 'We do not support this appointment'. It is a safeguard, and normally it's not necessary, but I think it's an important safeguard, nevertheless.

I think there's an important intellectual argument to be had about whether it should be the Senedd or the Welsh Government who makes this appointment, but I note that it goes beyond the committee's recommendations in your earlier Stage 1 discussions, and therefore I think that you haven't managed to tie this down in your Stage 1 sufficiently to come to an agreement that that is what is needed. And having been involved in the process for appointing senior people in the past, both appointed by the Senedd and by the Government, I think both processes are very rigorous, apply the normal standards you would expect about equal opportunities, as well as rigorously applying the person spec.

I think that Carolyn Thomas's amendments are very helpful, because they enshrine into law that a member of the relevant committee has to be on the appointment panel and they don't need to be an environmental expert. That gives you that political angle that is important. I don't support Janet's amendments, because I don't think you've managed to make the case sufficiently at Stage 1. I think that Carolyn's amendments are important, but, obviously, the most important amendment in this for me is Julie Morgan's amendment about the independence of the office of environmental governance.

Diolch yn fawr. Thank you. I call on the Cabinet Secretary.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Cadeirydd. Can I say that that was a very useful discussion around a big batch of amendments, some of which are trying to wrestle with the issue of independence? We agree, by the way, and I've said powerfully before that we really want the OEGW to have independence. But, there are different proposals here in the way that we actually resolve that—different ways to skin the cat. Not that any of us are in favour of skinning cats—I'll make that point straight away. [Laughter.] Different ways to get to the right resolution, perhaps.

Let me first of all turn to the amendments put forward by Janet—quite an extensive range of amendments, 77 to 80, 85 to 104, and 107 to 109. These proposed changes are really substantial and would make the Senedd, rather than Welsh Ministers, responsible for administrating processes around the OEGW, including the appointment of non-executive members of the OEGW and, indeed, the first chief executive, and removing non-executive members, approving remuneration arrangements, and so on. I don't agree with these amendments. I would point out right at the outset that these go beyond the amendments that were put forward by this committee in recommendations 13 and 14. They put the responsibility for the vast majority of functions contained in Schedule 1 on the Senedd rather than on Welsh Ministers. So, it goes above and beyond what you recommended as a committee, for good reason, I have to say as well, to try and get that balance right.

The current approach grants access to civil service recruitment systems and processes, which are very well practised, I have to say, at handling very complex public appointments. In my view, requiring the Senedd to approve the appointment of five to seven non-executive members could actually slow down the appointment process, could slow down Senedd timetables, could be impacted by recess periods as well, and committee schedules, indeed, could create bottlenecks and potentially delay the establishment and the functioning of the OEGW, which would then undermine the timely commencement of the statutory duties. There's a range of reasons why I think the recommendations put forward by the committee were in the right ballpark on this, rather than going with this approach. It's my view that the independence of the OEGW, and I'll come to that in some detail, is better safeguarded through other amendments that have been tabled, a number of which have been referred to, including having duties on the Welsh Ministers to have regard to the need to protect the OEGW's independence, and the amendment to provide for a Senedd Member to sit on the appointment panel and the pre-appointment hearings for key roles. That's a real step forward. What is proposed in other amendments, and what we've proposed in ours, better reflects the committee's recommendations. It mirrors not just existing but well-established appointment processes, such as the process for appointing the Welsh Language Commissioner, indeed, and others.

On amendment 82, Janet, which would result in staff of the Welsh Government being added to the list of persons disqualified from being a member of the OEGW, the purpose of paragraph 3 of Schedule 1 to the Bill is to disqualify members of senior public and/or political offices from being members of the OEGW. This is because there could be a direct conflict of interest in these cases, particularly in relation to organisations that the OEGW is directly overseeing. But in all other circumstances, including members of staff of those organisations, we consider it appropriate and normal for such conflicts of interest to be managed through appropriate administrative procedures. We do not consider that there is a strong rationale to single out members of staff of the Welsh Government. These can be managed effectively and appropriately along with members of staff from other local authorities, NRW or other organisations listed where holders of public office are disqualified. Furthermore, the regulation-making power at paragraph 3(1)(i) will enable the Ministers to make regulations to include other organisations, including their members of staff, on the list of disqualifications, if this is considered necessary in the future. This will enable the Welsh Ministers to maintain a watching brief as to whether more disqualifications are necessary. So, as such, I consider this amendment shouldn't be supported.

On amendments 83 and 84 in Janet's name, well, the Bill as introduced provides that a person may only be appointed as a member of the OEGW for two periods of office. This provision is designed to balance the need for continuity and flexibility within the OEGW’s senior team against what will be a developing policy context and a developing framework, which will benefit, I've got to say, from new insight and new ideas, and being able to refresh that pool. We consider that setting a limit of two periods of up to four years each strikes this balance. Permitting longer tenures risks the organisation actually becoming stagnant, and it could result in the same individuals occupying those same posts continuously. So, that's why, Janet, we wouldn't support this amendment.

On amendment 149 in Delyth's name, many of the points made in response to amendment 77 apply here. Requiring the Senedd to approve the appointment of five to seven non-executive members risks that slowing down substantially of the appointment process. The independence of the appointment process can be better safeguarded through other amendments that have been tabled, including those duties on Welsh Ministers to have regard to the need to protect the OEGW’s independence and the amendment to provide for a Senedd Member to sit on the appointment panel and for pre-appointment hearings for key roles. So, in my view, to come back to that cat again, these other amendments would better balance the recommendations of the committee with the need to ensure the appointments are able to be delivered in good time. This approach would mirror existing and established appointment processes, such as that I referred to earlier on with the Welsh Language Commissioner.

In respect of amendments 105 and 106 in Janet's name, can I refer you to my response to amendments 83 and 84 earlier, which we don't support, and they flow from that?

Amendment 120 I've dealt with already, and that's why we'll be supporting it. It builds on amendments 118 and 119 and provides that the Senedd must nominate that Member within 21 days of receiving a request for nomination, not including recess periods. I think this is a very measured, considered approach to doing it. If no response is provided or the request declined, the appointment process can proceed without the Senedd representative. This ensures the appointment process is not unnecessarily delayed, so I'm happy to support this.

In my name, if I can turn to amendment 41, this amendment allows the OEGW to choose to only have one independent member on the review committee if it so wishes, and you'll find that this is a theme of mine today—'if it so wishes'. It's in response to concerns from certain stakeholders around the number of independent members potentially outweighing those of the OEGW. The review committee is responsible for conducting a review of compliance notices when this is requested by a public authority.

Amendments 42, 43 and 44 in my name respond to the concerns that have been raised around Welsh Ministers' role in the review committee process, and specifically the holding of the list from which the OEGW must select independent members for its review committee. The combined effect of these amendments is that the OEGW will hold the list from which they must appoint an independent member to the review committee, not the Welsh Ministers, and that the OEGW may not include persons on its list unless it considers they have experience of and capability in environmental law and policy, environmental science and/or investigatory and enforcement proceedings. Now, the process of the OEGW appointing independent members from a list held by the Welsh Ministers was intended to enhance the fairness of the review process by providing a degree of separation from the OEGW, who will have made the initial determination, as well as enhancing transparency by providing for this list to be published. However, we’ve reflected on the feedback that we have heard from certain stakeholders, and the committee's views as well, expressed in recommendation 22, that this balance may not be quite right. So, on this basis, we brought forward these amendments to provide that it’s the OEGW that holds and publishes the lists of independent members.

Amendment 110, in Janet's name, is a significant amendment, and I would say it holds a substantial amount of risk, injects a substantial amount of risk and inflexibility into the funding arrangements for the OEGW. We considered the funding source for the OEGW at an early stage, including the potential use of the Welsh consolidated fund. Now, we consulted on this matter as well in the White Paper and concluded there’s a significant benefit to funding the OEGW through Welsh Government budgets. Now, the clearest benefit of this is the flexibility that this provides. Experience has already shown both the OEP and the ESS, the sister organisations, have had highly variable budgets in their formative years, and UK and Scottish Ministers have had to increase and decrease their funding allocations accordingly. Now, I appreciate that funding from the Welsh Government could be seen as less independent, but we are confident that this is not the case in practice, and we note that committee members have tabled other amendments that would much more effectively safeguard independence, in particular provisions that would require Welsh Ministers to have regard to the OEGW's independence and the requirement to provide sufficient funding, which was a piece that came up regularly in your evidence. Now, those are, in my view, more sensible ways to strengthen and safeguard the role of the OEGW without exposing it to unnecessary risks around funding and flexibility on that funding as well. So, I don't agree with these amendments, but I understand why they are being put forward.

In respect of amendment 111, the Bill, in a broad, encompassing and futureproof way, ensures that any Welsh public authority that is subject to environmental law could fall within the scope of the OEGW’s functions. This means that any changes that establish a new public authority, or bring an existing one into the definition of a Welsh public authority, would be captured, as well as new environmental law requirements placed on existing public authorities.

We did consider and we consulted on an alternative approach to list all the public authorities that would fall within scope, but this was considered high risk. It's feasible that there could be public authorities with only one function relating wholly or mainly to environmental law, and whilst it is intended that they be captured, a list-based approach risks these bodies not being included—by omission, by lack of oversight.

Asking the OEGW to do this presents the same risk, as if it doesn’t identify an organisation on its website in accordance with this amendment, but subsequently decides to issue them with a compliance notice, the public authority in question may have grounds for a challenge to that notice if it is not listed. The OEGW must then decide on a case-by-case basis whether a public authority falls within the scope of the definition.

I don't consider that this provision would add clarity. In fact, it could be detrimental to the wider approach within the Bill and could add unnecessary burden and, potentially, restrictions to the OEGW. I'm therefore, for those reasons, unable to support this amendment.

Amendment 117 in the name of Julie Morgan, which I note already has had signalled support from other committee members—. I'm not surprised, because this reflects the committee recommendation 12, and it provides that express provision—and that's critical—about the independence of the OEGW from Ministers. We heard that from stakeholders. We heard what you were hearing as well. This strengthens the independence of the OEGW from the Welsh Government by placing that duty on Ministers to have regard to the need to protect the independence of the OEGW when exercising functions in relation to it. So it's no surprise that we would support the amendment in Julie Morgan's name.

On amendment 33, the effect of this amendment is that if regulations are made under the provision to be inserted by amendment 40, they are to be subject to the Senedd approval procedure. This amendment inserts a provision enabling the Welsh Ministers to make regulations to substitute a different period for the time being specified in the Bill, which, via amendment 39, will initially be a 24-month period. The initial 24-month period is based on a reasonable expectation as to the length of time required to set up a public body of this nature. I know we've discussed this in the committee before. Together, amendments 38, 39 and 40 reflect recommendation 10 of your committee’s report.

That's fine.

Amendment 36 in my name is a technical amendment. It's consequential to the amendments to Schedule 4 that insert additional consequential amendments to place requirements on the OEGW under the Government of Wales Act 2006 and the Welsh Language (Wales) Measure 2011.

Amendments 38, 39 and 40 in my name reflect recommendation 10 of the committee’s report, and provide that the OEGW’s substantive functions will come into force no later than 24 months after Royal Assent. It responds to that recommendation 10. However, the Welsh Ministers may make regulations—but they have to do this in full sight—to amend the 24-month period, up to a maximum of 48 months after Royal Assent.

If amendment 33 is accepted, the regulations will be subject to the Senedd approval procedure; so, the time period may only be amended with the approval of the Senedd. So, anybody who wants to come back and adjust that timescale, they're going to have to do it in the full light of this Senedd. I think that's a robust way forward. The Welsh Ministers may want to use this power to specify a longer period, if it appears to them unlikely that the OEGW's substantive functions can be effectively commenced at the end of the initial 24-month period—though I know we all want to see that happening within the 24 months.

Sorry for the extensive response to those amendments, but I hope that explains why we think there are amendments here that are really worth supporting. But I recognise that all the amendments are raised to try and do, in a different way, the same thing.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Cabinet Secretary. I call on Janet to reply to the debate.

I just find it rather fascinating that you choose to support the amendments put forward by members of your own group. I said right at the beginning let's try and keep this non-political.

It's not political. It's—

Well, we'll see. Anyway, after all that, I'm happy to withdraw amendment 81, and let's see if we can work together on it at Stage 3. I'm standing firm on amendment 82. I'm also happy to withdraw amendments 83 and 84, on the pretext that maybe we can work together on that, because I wasn't quite convinced by your arguments on amendments 83 and 84. Let's move to the vote.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. The question is that amendment 78 be agreed to, first of all. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There's an objection. We'll move to a vote. All those in favour of amendment 78, please show. It's in your name, Janet. One in favour. Those against. Three against. Abstentions. We have two. Amendment 78 is not agreed.

Janet, do you move amendment 79?

I do.

Thank you. The question is that amendment 79 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There's an objection, so we'll move to a vote on amendment 79. All those in favour of 79, please show. One. Against. Three. Abstentions. Two. Amendment 79 is not agreed.

Janet, do you move amendment 80?

I do.

The question is that amendment 80 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There's an objection, so we will vote on amendment 80. All those in favour, please show. One. Against. Three. Abstentions. Two. Amendment 80 is therefore not agreed.

You've suggested, Janet, that you don't wish to move amendment 81.

No. I'll withdraw.

We'll move on. Janet, do you wish to move amendment 82?

I do.

The question is that amendment 82 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We'll move to a vote. Those in favour of amendment 82, please show. Three. Those against. Three. That's a tied vote, meaning that, in accordance with Standing Orders, I vote in the negative, against amendment 82, meaning that amendment 82 is not agreed.

Janet, you've also suggested that you do not wish to move amendment 83.

Correct. I'll withdraw.

And likewise amendment 84.

Correct.

I propose that amendments 85 to 100, which appear consecutively on the marshalled list, are disposed of en bloc, given their nature. Does any Member object to them being grouped in that way? No. Thank you. Janet, do you move amendments 85 to 100 en bloc?

I do.

The question is that amendments 85 to 100 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We will move to a vote on amendments 85 to 100. All those in favour please show. One. And all those against. Three. And any abstentions. Two. That means that amendments 85 to 100 are not agreed.

Janet, do you move amendment 101?

I do.

The question is that amendment 101 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection. We will vote on amendment 101. All those in favour please show. One. All those against. Five. Diolch yn fawr. Amendment 101 is not agreed.

Delyth, do you move amendment 149?

No, I'll withdraw that, please.

Janet, do you move amendment 102?

Yes, please.

The question is that amendment 102 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There's an objection. We'll vote on amendment 102. All those in favour please show. Three. All those against. Three. The vote is tied, so I vote in the negative, according to Standing Orders, meaning that amendment 102 is not agreed.

Janet, do you move amendment 103?

I do.

The question is that amendment 103 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection. All those in favour of amendment 103 please show. Three. And all those against. Three. Again, it's tied, meaning that I use my casting vote against amendment 103, which consequently falls.

Janet, do you move amendment 104?

I do.

If amendment 104 is agreed, then amendments 118, 119 and 120 all fall. The question is that amendment 104 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection. We will vote on amendment 104. All those in favour please show. One. All those against. Five. Amendment 104 is therefore not agreed.

Carolyn, do you move amendment 118?

I do.

If amendment 118 is not agreed, then amendments 119 and 120 fall. The question is that amendment 118 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Janet objects. We will move to a vote. All those in favour of amendment 118 please show. Five. And against. One. So, amendment 118 is agreed.

Carolyn, do you move amendment 119?

I do.

The question is that amendment 119 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There's an objection. We will vote. All those in favour of amendment 119 please show. Six. Amendment 119 is carried.

Janet, do you move amendment 105?

I do.

The question is that amendment 105 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection. We will vote on amendment 105. All those in favour please show. One. All those against. Five. Amendment 105 is therefore not agreed.

Janet, do you move amendment 106?

The question is that amendment 106 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There's an objection. We will vote on amendment 106. All those in favour of that amendment please show. One. All those against. Five. Amendment 106 is not agreed.

Carolyn, do you move amendment 120?

I do.

The question is that amendment 120 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection. We'll vote on amendment 120. All those in favour please show. Five. And against. One. Amendment 120 is agreed.

Janet, do you move amendment 107?

I do.

The question is that amendment 107 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There's an objection. We will vote on amendment 107. All those in favour please show. Three. All those against. Three. It's tied, so according to Standing Orders, I use my casting vote in the negative against amendment 107, which subsequently is not agreed.

Janet, do you move amendment 108?

I do.

The question is that amendment 108 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There's an objection. We will vote. All those in favour of amendment 108 please show. Three. All those against. Three. It's tied again, so I'll use my casting vote once more in the negative, against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Orders, meaning that amendment 108 is not agreed.

Janet, do you move amendment 109?

I do.

The question is that amendment 109 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There's an objection. We will vote, then. All those in favour of amendment 109, please show. Three. All those against. Three. The vote is tied, so I use my casting vote against amendment 109, in accordance with Standing Orders, meaning that it falls.

I move amendment 41 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. So, the question is that amendment 41 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection. So, we'll vote on amendment 40—[Interruption.] 41, apologies. All those in favour of amendment 41, please show. Five. All those against. One. Amendment 41 is therefore agreed.

I move amendment 42 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 42 be agreed. Does any Member object? No objection. Amendment 42 is therefore agreed.

I move amendment 43 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 43 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No objections. Amendment 43 is agreed.

I move amendment 44 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 44 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No objections. Amendment 44 is therefore agreed.

Janet, do you wish to move amendment 110?

I do.

There we are. If amendment 110 is agreed, then amendment 150 falls. So, the question is that amendment 110 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There's an objection. We will have a vote, therefore, on amendment 110. All those in favour, please show. One. All those against. Five. Amendment 110 is not agreed.

Delyth, do you wish to move amendment 150?

I would be delighted to.

There we are. The question is that amendment 150 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, there's an objection. So, all those in favour of amendment 150, please show. Five. And against. One. Meaning that amendment 150 is agreed.

Delyth, do you wish to move amendment 163?

No, I won't.

There we are. Okay. That's not moved.

Janet, do you wish to move amendment 111?

Yes, please.

There we are. The question is that amendment 111 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There's an objection. All those in favour of amendment 111, please show. Three. All those against. Three. I therefore use my casting vote in accordance with Standing Orders against amendment 111, which subsequently falls.

Julie, do you wish to move amendment 117?

I do.

There we are. The question is that amendment 117 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No objections. Amendment 117 is agreed.

Okay. The fifth group of amendments, then, relates to the general purpose of the Office of Environmental Governance Wales. The lead amendment in this group is amendment 59, and I call on Janet Finch-Saunders to move and speak to the lead amendment and other amendments in this group. Janet.

Sorry. Just—.

Group 5.

Yes. I move my amendments 59 and 112. Amendment 59 severs the link to the environmental objective in connection with the OEGW's purpose and replaces it with a requirement to contribute towards the attainment of a high level of environmental protection, an improvement of the environment and ensuring the effectiveness of environmental law. The wording that I have outlined was highlighted by the Wales Environmental Link, and is similar to suggestions made by the Green Alliance and RSPB Cymru. My hope is that the new wording provides greater clarity than what the Welsh Government have included in the Bill. That change is needed is backed also by the comment from Professor Lynda Warren that the OEGW's general purpose is too broad.

There we are. Thank you, Janet. Rhys.

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. I wish to speak on amendments 157 and 161, and place on the record my thanks to my friend Janet Finch-Saunders for being willing to move my amendments and to speak on my amendments in group 8 and in group 13, as I'm unable to be with you this afternoon, and I'm grateful to the committee for being willing to accommodate that.

Both amendments 157 and 161 relate to the Aarhus convention and follow on from correspondence I've received from Friends of the Earth. The amendments are simple in nature and suggest saying that the OEGW must exercise its functions with regard to the Aarhus convention. Now, some of you might wonder what does that exactly mean. The subject of the convention goes to the heart of the relationship between people and government. The convention is not only an environmental agreement, it's also a convention about government accountability, transparency and responsiveness. It guarantees three key rights when it comes to environmental issues, and these rights are something we often hear about from our constituents. Firstly, the right of access to information. We had an example in the Petitions Committee on Monday about frustrations about a lack of access to information. That guarantees the public the right to receive environmental information held by public authorities. The second, and this is another huge issue with our constituents, is public participation. They don't feel that they're involved in decision making. So, that refers to the right of the public to participate in environmental decision making. And the third is access to justice, so gives the public a right to review, by a court or another independent body, the authority in respect to access to information, to public participation and also environmental law in general.

Earlier this year, a case was brought by Friends of the Earth to the compliance committee of the Aarhus convention. Now, it found that the UK had failed to ensure proper public participation when drafting post-Brexit legislation. Now, it also found the UK lacked a consistent system for consulting citizens on new laws with significant environmental implications in general. The UK refused, however, to endorse the findings. Now, this is a conflicting message, because it recently said that it was willing to uphold its obligations under the convention. So, I can't see how the two marry together. And it also said that it remains committed to the Aarhus convention. So, in terms of the Welsh Government and this Senedd, I think, by accepting my amendments, we send a clear message today that we are committed to the important Aarhus convention, so I'd ask you all to support the amendments. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Rhys. Okay, any other Members wishing to speak? There we are. I call on the Cabinet Secretary.

Thank you very much, Chair. First of all, can I say I do understand the spirit and the intention—the spirit behind these amendments and the intention behind them as well? But I'll explain why I think there are more appropriate ways forward on both of these sets of amendments here in the names of Janet and Rhys as well.

If I turn to amendment 59, first of all, the Bill as we've currently got it, as introduced, links the general purpose of the OEGW to the environmental objective set out in section 1, and that environmental objective is, it's important to state, the attainment of a high level of environmental protection and an improvement of the environment. And the objective also recognises connected outcomes that can be achieved through a level of environmental protection and an improved environment and which are unique to the policy and the legal framework in Wales, including the well-being goals, and hence it places particular focus on those areas.

So, in this way, it's my view that the environmental objective complements and supports the work of the OEGW and, importantly, it embeds it directly into the framework in Wales. This echoes previous discussions that we've had as well. The effect of the amendment, this amendment, as drafted, would be to lose the express link between the OEGW's duties and the matters listed in paragraphs (a) to (d) of section 1(1). So, on this basis, we can't agree with this amendment. We consider it right that the OEGW carries out its oversight in the context of the uniquely Welsh framework.

Furthermore, I do not agree with the way in which the amendment emphasises OEGW's role in respect of ensuring the effectiveness of environmental law over its other equally important roles—so, for example, its roles in things such as non-compliance. It needs to be able to make its decision on where it puts the emphasis on these, and it has various roles there.

Amendment 112, Janet, in your name—this amendment is consequential, of course, to amendment 59, which changes the general purpose of the OEGW. So, for the same reason as outlined, I can't give my support to that amendment.

If I turn to the issues on the Aarhus convention, and those that are picked up in your amendments 157 and 161, I'll try and explain why we don't support these amendments, because we don't think it's appropriate to require OEGW to exercise its functions in accordance with the Aarhus convention, respected as it is, long and enduring as it is. The Aarhus convention is an international treaty ratified by UK Government. It sets out broad principles rather than precise statutory duties. Now, as such, requiring the OEGW to exercise its functions in accordance with the Aarhus convention could actually open the door not to clarity, but to substantial interpretation disputes, and potential challenges to that as well. It opens the door to that.

Diolch. Thank you. So, I call on Janet, then, to reply to the debate.

Let's move to the vote.

Let's move to the vote. Okay, there we are. So, the question is that amendment 59 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There's an objection. Therefore, all those in favour of amendment 59, please show. We have three against, three in favour. The vote is tied. So, in accordance with Standing Orders, I use my vote in the negative, meaning that amendment 59 is not agreed.

Janet Finch-Saunders, do you move amendment 157 in the name of Rhys ab Owen?

I do.

There we are. If amendment 157 is not agreed, then amendment 161 falls. So, the question is that amendment 57 be agreed to. Does any Member object?

157, yes?

Sorry, 157. So, if amendment 157 is not agreed, amendment 161 falls. So, the question is that amendment 157 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection. Therefore, we move to a vote. All those in favour of amendment 157, please show. That's three. All those against. Three. It's tied. I use my casting vote then, in accordance with Standing Orders, against amendment 157, meaning that amendment 161 falls.

Janet, do you wish to move amendment 112?

Yes, please.

There we are. The question is that amendment 112 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There's an objection. We will vote, therefore, on amendment 112. All those in favour, please show. Three. All those against. Three. It's tied, so I use my casting vote against amendment 112, in accordance with Standing Orders, meaning that amendment 112 is not agreed.

We move on to the sixth group of amendments then, which relate to the strategy of the Office of Environmental Governance Wales. The lead amendment in this group is amendment 113, and I call on Janet Finch-Saunders to move and speak to the lead amendment and the other amendments in this group.

Diolch, Chair. So, I move my amendments 113 to 116. The first amendment adds Ofwat and the Drinking Water Inspectorate to the list in Schedule 2 for which the OEGW must explain in its strategy how it will exercise its functions in a way that doesn't overlap with these bodies. Now, I expect that we do see eye to eye here, Deputy Minister, bearing in mind your positive written response to recommendation 17 by our committee. In fact, you even noted that you have obtained consent from the UK Government.

The second amendment adds a provision into Schedule 2 that provides that the OEGW must explain in its strategy how it does intend to manage any cross-border elements in relation to its functions. I believe this is a commonsense requirement, which will help to ensure from the outset that there is a clear way forward for managing environmental issues that could easily affect both Wales and England.

Amendment 116 requires the OEGW to consult members of the public in preparing its strategy. The amendment is in line with recommendation 18 made by this committee, which the Welsh Government accepted in principle. However, the Deputy First Minister has now put forward an argument in response to the recommendation, noting:

'I recognise the importance of the public being able to comment on the strategy of the OEGW. It is our intention that this will be the case and the Well-being of Future Generations Act already requires certain public authorities, through the 5 ways of working to support the sustainable development principles to take a collaborative approach to making decisions which considers and involves people of all ages and diversity.'

I am concerned that your explanation now is far less clear than including the provision I have recommended on the face of the Bill, and I will be voting against amendments 153 and 148.

Thank you very much, Janet. Delyth.

Thank you. I will be speaking to the amendments in my name in this group, namely 151, 153 and 148.

Amendment 151 would require the OEGW to set out its strategy—that is, how it intends to work with the Climate Change Committee, the CCC. This ensures the OEGW co-ordinates with this oversight body, and while the OEGW would liaise with a range of organisations, of course, this amendment would give clarity and would strengthen accountability around this important relationship—well, I'd say 'crucial' relationship.

Amendment 148 simply defines the CCC on the face of the Bill to make it clear exactly which body is being referred to, and to support transparency.

Amendment 153 would give the OEGW the power to review its strategy at any time. As things stand, the Bill only requires a review every four years. I think that this would be an amendment that would add flexibility. It's important, because it would allow the body, the OEGW, to respond to changing circumstances, without waiting for the four-year cycle, and that flexibility would help the OEGW futureproof its work and focus its resources on the areas of greater strategic need.

Diolch yn fawr. Okay. I don't have any further speakers, so I'll invite the Cabinet Secretary—. Oh, you—

I'm supposed to be moving my amendments.

The Cabinet Secretary is responding first—

And then I'll come back to these. All right.

—and then you're closing the debate, and then we go to a vote. So, Cabinet Secretary.

No, no—about moving amendments 60 and 61.

That's the next group.

We haven't got to that group yet.

I beg your pardon. Sorry.

Right, let's stick to one group at a time. [Laughter.] Cabinet Secretary.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. So, first of all, if I can turn to amendment 113, in Janet's name, which deals with issues of cross-border considerations, I just want to say, in terms of amendments and legal drafting, it's not clear what is meant by 'cross-border considerations' in this amendment, so it's very difficult to offer this my support. But in any event, the amendment isn't necessary. The OEGW must exercise its functions for the general purpose of contributing to the environmental objective. It must set out in its strategy how it intends to exercise its functions, and exercise those functions accordingly, and, as already noted, this would include areas of common or cross-border concerns, where these applied in relation to Wales. So, that ability is already there within the legislation.

On amendments 114 and 115, relating to the Drinking Water Inspectorate and Ofwat, I consider—I've got to be clear—that there is very limited overlap between the functions of the OEGW and the Drinking Water Inspectorate and Ofwat, specifically, in terms of this amendment. It's therefore unnecessary to include an express requirement for the OEGW strategy to detail how the OEGW will avoid overlapping functions with these particular bodies. However, I have agreed with the principle of broadening the scope of this provision as introduced, by placing a requirement on the OEGW to set out how it will exercise its functions in such a way that it avoids overlap with functions of any other person—the legal terminology of 'person'—whose functions it appears to OEGW to be capable of overlapping with its own. So, this will be based—and I come back to this point again; it's going to be my common theme—on the independent expertise, professional judgment and assessment of the OEGW itself making those determinations, where it sees the overlap and where it has to then respond to it. This is actually there within amendment 45.

In amendment 151, in Delyth's name, this is quite an interesting one, because it refers to how the OEGW sets out in its strategy how it intends to avoid any overlapping functions. This does relate to the committee's recommendation 60. So, you'll note that amendment 45, which I just touched on, requires the OEGW's strategy to set out how it intends to avoid overlap with any person—legal terminology—whose functions appear to the OEGW to be capable of overlapping with its own functions. This could include the UK Climate Change Committee. So, at present, I'm very content that amendment 45 is sufficient for the OEGW to cover in its strategy any overlap with the UK Climate Change Committee. That's why I won't be supporting this amendment. However, I will continue to consider, because this is different from the previous amendment, where it's hard to see—. It's a very limited overlap, if anything. But, in terms of the Climate Change Committee, I will continue to consider in advance of Stage 3 whether such an express provision is appropriate in relation specifically to the UK Climate Change Committee. I think there's a case there to be made, but we have to think it through.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Janet, do you wish to reply?

Yes. Thanks for that, climate Secretary. As regards 116 in particular, I feel really strongly on this, because I think, by not accepting this amendment, we're undermining once again the voice of the public. The OEGW will be a significantly larger office than my own office, for instance, and yet, on my portfolio responsibilities in particular, I’m able to engage with the public in Wales. So, I find it a bit worrying that it seems to be an onerous task for this new body being set up, at great expense, again, to the taxpayer, that it’s not considered that it is within their remit to engage with the public. I find that really disappointing. So, let’s just go—.

Okay. Thank you, Janet. The question is that amendment 113 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection, so we'll vote on amendment 113. All those in favour, please show. Three. All those against. Three. It's tied, so I use my casting vote, according to Standing Orders, against amendment 113, meaning that it falls.

Janet, would you wish to move amendment 114?

Yes, please.

The question is that amendment 114 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection. We will vote on amendment 114. All those in favour, please show. One. All those against. Three. Any abstentions? Two. There we are. So, amendment 114 is not agreed.

Delyth, do you wish to move amendment 151?

I would like to, please.

There we are. If amendment 151 is not agreed, then amendment 148 falls. So, the question is that amendment 151 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection. All those in favour of amendment 151, please show. Three. All those against. Three. It's tied. I therefore cast my vote in the negative, according to Standing Orders, meaning that amendment 151 is not agreed and amendment 148, therefore, falls.

I move amendment 45 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 45 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No objections. Amendment 45 is therefore agreed.

Janet, do you wish to move 115?

Yes, please.

The question is that amendment 115 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection. So, we'll vote on 115. All those in favour of amendment 115, please show. One. All those against. Three. Abstentions. Two. There we are. Amendment 115 is therefore not agreed.

Just for Members' information, I will try to dispose of, if we can, two further groups before we break for lunch. I think that probably makes sense, doesn't it?

So, it's the seventh group of amendments next, which relates to the Office of Environmental Governance Wales's monitoring and reporting functions. The lead amendment in this group is amendment 152, and I call on Delyth Jewell to move and speak to the lead amendment and the other amendments in the group.

Thank you, Chair. I'm speaking to amendments 152, 127 and 128 in this group.

Amendment 152, which I move, would give the OEGW a clear role in monitoring and investigating any potential breaches of environmental law that relate to contaminated land. Now, I believe this would be an important addition because contaminated land remains a significant environmental, public health and social justice issue in Wales, particularly given our industrial legacy. By including this in the Bill explicitly, it would ensure that the OEGW can provide independent oversight and help drive action to address this form of pollution. I appreciate that this might be seen as a symbolic attempt. I do believe that this requires particular attention.

To turn to amendments 127 and 128, these would give the OEGW a clear role in the new biodiversity targets framework in Part 3 of the Bill. This framework is vital to tackling the nature emergency. The amendments ensure, or would ensure, that the OEGW can help Welsh Ministers to stay on track. They would require the OEGW to review the biodiversity reports and evaluation reports published every three years, providing independent assessments of progress and ensuring the Senedd and stakeholders could hold Ministers to account. Now, while this duty is substantive, it is less complicated than the Office for Environmental Protection's annual reviews and would allow flexibility for the OEGW to focus its scrutiny where it is most needed. By embedding this role in the OEGW's strategy, it would protect the body from future pressure, perhaps, to take lighter scrutiny by a future Government, and ensure that this important part of environmental law does receive proper oversight without compromising the OEGW's independence—again, just to guard against a Government with drastically different ideas from those represented in this committee being able to do something truly sinister.

Diolch yn fawr. Janet.

Thank you. I move my amendments, 60 and 61. These amendments require the OEGW to monitor biodiversity targets set under the new biodiversity target setting regime in Part 3 of the Bill, and section 6 plans prepared and published by the Welsh Ministers under the Environment (Wales) Act 2016. Although the Bill enables the OEGW to monitor and report progress towards delivery of targets, it is not required to do so. So, this was a concern raised with me by many contributors, members of the public and NGOs, and one that this committee shared. Strong evidence in support of the amendment is clear when looking at what's happening in England, Northern Ireland and Scotland. The OEP is required to monitor and report on progress towards environmental targets for England and Northern Ireland, including biodiversity targets. If the Scottish Bill as drafted becomes law, ESS will evaluate progress towards Scotland's biodiversity targets. I will also be supporting the other amendments in this group.

Diolch, Janet. I don't have any other speakers, so I'll call the Cabinet Secretary.

Thank you very much, Chair. First of all, again, I understand the spirit in which these amendments are put there, but I'm going to explain why my worries around these are actually to do with fettering the discretion and the independence of the OEGW and its expertise within that body. But I do get the point that's been raised repeatedly in several groups of these amendments about guarding against the sinister motives of future Governments, and I do get that very clearly.

So, let me try and explain my thinking on this. First of all, in terms of Delyth's amendment 152, this would place a requirement on OEGW to set out in a strategy how it intends to monitor and investigate breaches of environmental law relating to contaminated land, and I do recognise, Delyth, the many exchanges we've had around this issue and the importance of this issue. But as with amendments 60 and 127 and 128, I consider that mandating the specific elements of environmental law that the OEGW must oversee actually undermines its own independence and its discretion; it's counterintuitive, actually, for an independent body of experts. They may well choose to focus relentlessly on this, but let us give them the ability to decide that that's one of their priorities to set on.

I understand the spirit and the intent of this, but let us make it for the OEGW to decide what it will monitor, what it will investigate, and breaches relating to contaminated land already clearly fall within the scope of the OEGW. So, they can, Delyth, if they choose to, in their independence, with that body of expertise, say that is a priority, if they so want. But let's not have us tell them that that is the only one, and fetter them in any way.

But it is also notable that stakeholders have already raised concerns around Schedule 2 being overly prescriptive, and specifying additional requirements could actually exacerbate that view, that we are trying to determine in advance of the establishment of the OEGW exactly what their priorities will be.

Now, in terms of amendment 60, I get the spirit of what's being put here, but on amendment 60 and 61, similar to amendment 152, amendments 60 and 61 together require the OEGW to monitor and report again on a specific area of environmental law. In this case it's referring to progress to achieve the targets set in accordance with amendments to be made by Part 3 of the Bill, and I note that this reflects a part of the committee's own report.

When I responded to that report, I explained that I just don't consider it appropriate to set out specific elements of environmental law that the OEGW must oversee, as, again, I consider that this undermines its independence and its discretion. Evidence from stakeholders, including the OEP, has been clear and consistent that the ability of the OEGW to focus on areas that it considers a priority is paramount. Indeed, in her evidence to this committee, Dame Glenys Stacey, chair of the OEP, said, and I quote,

Diolch yn fawr. Delyth to reply to the debate.

Diolch. Only to say that on amendment 152, I do appreciate the points, of course, that the Cabinet Secretary is making. This was an amendment tabled to be probing, because I appreciate that this is, of course, something that would be within the remit of the OEGW. I wanted us to have this debate to—not to reassess, to re-say, I suppose. I can't think of the word. To say again.

Reassert.

Reassert, thank you. My gosh, my brain wasn't working. To reassert—thank you—how important tackling the issue of contaminated land is. So, I'm happy not to push 152 to a vote. With the other amendments in the group, I would still like to, but with 152, I'm happy to withdraw it.

Fine. Are committee content, therefore, given that it has been moved, for amendment 152 to be withdrawn? Yes, there we are. Okay, amendment 152 is therefore withdrawn.

Right, we move on to the eighth group of amendments, which relates to representations to the office of environmental governance and investigations. The lead amendment in this group is amendment 164, and I call on Delyth Jewell to move and speak to the lead amendment and the other amendments in the group.

Thank you, Chair, and I speak to amendments 164, 129 and 162 in the main.

I'll start, actually, not with the lead amendment, but with amendment 129. I'll come back to the lead amendment. Amendment 129 would give the OEGW a clear duty to promote awareness of the public's right to make representations about potential breaches of environmental law relating to water quality. It would also require the OEGW to publish an engagement strategy setting out how it would meet this duty. This would ensure the public know how to raise concerns about issues such as sewage discharges and other forms of water pollution. It would strengthen transparency and accountability. I also believe it would empower the public.

Now, to turn to amendments 162 and 164, I welcome the Welsh Government's amendment 14, which responds to calls from stakeholders for a clear process for citizens and indeed civil society groups to make representations to the OEGW when they believe environmental law has been breached or indeed is not working. Amendment 14, though, sets out only the process; it does not set out the right itself, and that is why I've tabled amendment 162.

The Deputy First Minister confirmed in committee that both the right and the process should be included in the Bill and that any person should be able to make representations to the OEGW on environmental law matters. So, amendment 162 would insert a new section into the Bill that explicitly would give citizens this right and would require the OEGW to publish how representations can be made and managed. This would lift provisions that are currently in Schedule 2, but it would bring them into the main body of the Bill because, as a committee, we've said that they were, in effect, buried or hidden, so it would bring them into the light.

Amendment 164 is the necessary consequential amendment that would remove duplicated text from Schedule 2. Together, amendments 162 and 164 would provide clarity. They would ensure that representations stay within the OEGW's remit and would protect the organisation from unnecessary resourcing pressures.

The omission of the right from amendment 14—. Perhaps this was an oversight, so I would welcome the Deputy First Minister indicating his support for my amendment, if I can be so cheeky. Although if he does not, I would welcome hearing the reasons for that. Diolch.

There we are. Well, there'll be an opportunity to hear that in a minute. Janet.

I'm happy to speak on behalf of Rhys ab Owen, my colleague. So, even the Bill, unamended, requires as a general principle for the OEGW—and I'm speaking to amendments 158, 159 and 160. Key opportunities have been missed to help guarantee that.

My amendments—Rhys's amendments—would require any reports in connection with an investigation undertaken by the OEGW to be published as soon as reasonably practicable. Bearing in mind GDPR, I have made the requirements subject to section 25, so that the OEGW will not be forced by the provision to breach confidentiality rules.

At the heart of these amendments is the wish for the new body to be at least as transparent as the Office of Environmental Protection. There is nothing that annoys residents more than the thought of England doing something better than Wales. So, let this be a warning. I've taken time to peruse the OEP website and can see that they publish regular reports detailing the complaints they are handling. The added benefit of this is that it reduces the need for others to submit complaints about an issue that is already being investigated. If they can do it in England and Northern Ireland, we can do it even better here. So, I hope that you will all support Rhys and Wales today. Diolch.

Thank you, Janet. Jenny.

I think we're in danger of micromanaging the office of environmental protection, because there are sometimes reasons why you don't want to rush into publishing something, and we have to bear in mind that, sometimes, people who raise environmental concerns are then the subject of adverse publicity and comment, and we don't want people to be prevented from sharing their concerns due to feeling that they're going to be in the public eye. There may be good reasons for that. It might be their landlord that they're complaining against, or something like that.

So, once again, I think the office is going to need to set their own timetable and ensure that the way in which they handle public representation doesn't, if you like, disable them. Because we're all aware of people who get the answer they don't want and then they keep going. So, I think there have to be mechanisms to both ensure that they are hearing about areas of concern, but it not being abused in order to cripple the work of the office.

Diolch yn fawr. Cabinet Secretary.

Thank you very much, Chair. It's a good discussion again. I think one of the things that's coming out of some of these discussions and groups of amendments is the areas that Members, either individually or collectively, would want the OEGW to turn its attention to. But I keep coming back to the point—. That's good, that's good, and they're probably going to hear it when this is established because they'll go back over this. But what we don't want to do is fetter their discretion and their independence to make those choices based on what they are hearing. But let me just deal with some of the—. So, we don't want to micromanage, you're absolutely right. But actually flagging those areas that are of high concern, whether it is on things such as contaminated land or water quality and so on, is a good thing to be putting on record now.

But let me come to my response to these various amendments. Amendment 164, which is consequential to amendment 162, removes requirements on the OECW to set out in its strategy how it intends to enable persons to make representations and manage representations. This is now dealt with under the new section, the new document proposed in amendment 162.

I'm going to come to my amendment 14. Thanks to my colleague for bringing me the detail of this. I wanted to see the full detail of it here as well, which I'll come to in a moment. Amendments 46, 47 and 48 in my name are amendments made in consequence of the substantive amendment on representations made at amendment 14. That goes to the heart of some of the comments that have been made, so let me go straight to that.

In line with my response to the CCEI committee's recommendation 21, this amendment inserts a new section to impose a requirement on OEGW to publish a document setting out how representations will be made to it relating to compliance, et cetera, with environmental law. The document must also set out the OEGW's policy on keeping those persons who've made representations informed about its response and any actions taken. And if you look at that amendment 14, it's publishing the document; setting out the procedure by which the representations may be made on public authorities' compliance with environmental law; how that environmental law is implemented and applied; the effectiveness of environmental law; and also setting out the OEGW's policy on keeping those persons informed, et cetera, and the actions that have been taken. Now, that's quite powerful. It deals with the committee's recommendation 21 and some of the matters being discussed in this batch of amendments.

Diolch yn fawr. Delyth to respond.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. First, on the points that Janet was making on behalf of Rhys, it's difficult to disagree with those when we're called on not just to support the amendments but indeed Wales. I do support the amendments that Rhys has tabled and that Janet has moved—diolch.

Amendment 129 was meant as a probing amendment, in the same way as the amendment about contaminated land, so I'm happy not to push amendment 129 to a vote. I'm happy that we've had that debate to reassert—now I remember the word—the importance of that area.

On amendments 164 and 162, I do appreciate the points that Jenny was making about potentially exposing members of the public to scrutiny, and, like the Deputy First Minister said, about how it could lead to hesitancy from members of the public. Jenny has also talked about the need to guard against undertaking this in bad faith—people abusing the process. Evidently, I support amendment 14 that the Deputy First Minister has tabled, and I appreciate the points that the Deputy First Minister made about amendment 14.

It does still, though, amendment 14, set out the process, which again I welcome, without setting out the right itself. The committee had felt that the right itself should be made more explicit. We'd said that it was hidden in the Schedules. I appreciate they're not going to pass. I will still push them to vote because I feel that having that right on the face of the Bill would be important, but I understand that, before Stage 3, perhaps, I'll need to look again if there's another way of doing this that would not lead to the unintended consequences that Jenny and the Deputy First Minister have set out. Diolch.

There we are.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. If amendment 164 is agreed, amendments 46, 47 and 48 will fall. The question is that amendment 164 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection. All those in favour of amendment 164, please show. Two. All those against. Three. Do we have an abstention? No abstention. Amendment 164 falls.

I move amendment 46 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 46 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No objection. Amendment 46 is, therefore, agreed.

The question is that amendment 47 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No objections. That means that amendment 47 is agreed.

I move amendment 48 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 48 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There's an objection. All those in favour of amendment 48, please show. Five. All those against. One. That means amendment 48 is agreed.

Janet, do you move amendment 116?

Yes.

The question is that amendment 116 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There's an objection. We'll go to a vote. All those in favour of amendment 116, please show. Three. All those against. Three. That vote is tied, so I use my casting vote in the negative against amendment 116 according to Standing Orders, meaning that it is not agreed.

Delyth, do you move amendment 153?

I believe that I do. I'm trying to remember which one it was, but, yes.

The question is that amendment 153 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There's an objection. All those in favour of amendment 153, please show. Two. All those against. Three. Any abstentions? One abstention. Amendment 153 is not agreed.

Janet, do you move amendment 60?

I do.

If amendment 60 is not agreed, then amendment 61 falls. The question is that amendment 60 be agreed. Does any member object? [Objection.] There's an objection, so we'll vote on amendment 60. All those in favour, please show. Three. All those against. Three. It's a tied vote, so I vote in the negative against amendment 60 in accordance with Standing Orders, meaning that amendment 60 is not agreed and, subsequently, amendment 61 falls.

I call on Delyth to move amendment 127.

I move it, please.

If amendment 127 is not agreed, then amendment 128 falls. So, the question is that amendment 127 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection, so we have a vote on amendment 127. All those in favour, please show. Two. All those against. Three. Any abstentions? No abstentions, meaning that amendment 127 is not agreed, also meaning that amendment 128 falls.

Delyth, do you wish to move amendment 129?

No.

No, you don't. You did indicate earlier. Thank you.

I move amendment 14 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 14 be agreed. Does any Member object? No objection. Amendment 14 is, therefore, agreed.

Delyth, do you move amendment 162?

I do, please, yes.

The question is that amendment 162 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There's an objection, so we will vote on amendment 162. All those in favour please show. Two. All of those against. Three. Abstentions? No abstentions. That means that amendment 162 is not agreed.

Janet, do you move amendment 158 in the name of Rhys ab Owen?

I do.

The question is that amendment 158 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There's an objection. We'll have a vote. All those in favour of amendment 158 please show. Three. All those against. Three. It's tied, so I use my casting vote in the negative against amendment 158 in accordance with Standing Orders, meaning that 158 is not agreed.

Janet, do you move amendment 159 in the name of Rhys ab Owen?

I do.

If amendment 159 is not agreed, then amendment 160 falls. The question is that amendment 159 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, an objection. We'll vote on amendment 159. All those in favour please show. Three. All those against. Three. I therefore cast my casting vote in the negative against amendment 159, as is required under Standing Orders, meaning that 159 is not agreed, and also meaning that amendment 160 falls.

I think it's time that we had a break, if Members are content. We will therefore break for literally 30 minutes and reconvene for 13:05 so that we can get cracking with the remainder of the groups. Diolch yn fawr. Thank you.

Welcome back to the committee.

Welcome back.

We now move on to the ninth group of amendments, which relate to the Office of Environmental Governance Wales's enforcement powers and related matters. The lead amendment in this group is amendment 62, and I call on Janet Finch-Saunders to move and speak to the lead amendment and the other amendments in the group. Janet.

I move amendment 62. The effect of this amendment to section 17 is to provide that urgent compliance notices may be issued where action needs to be taken promptly, and that the public authority has at least five days and no more than 30 days to complete that action. In short, I've amended seven days to five so that if there is an emergency situation requiring urgent action, those required to take that action can be given notice to do so in as little as five days, instead of the seven. I believe that five days, a working week, is reasonable, but will be pleased to understand why the Welsh government opted for a minimum of seven.

Okay. Thank you. Delyth.

Thank you. I'm speaking to amendments 130 and 131.

Amendment 130 would ensure that the review committee carries out its review of a compliance notice as soon as is reasonably practicable after a public authority notices the OEGW of its request. This would prevent unnecessary delays while allowing flexibility, and would recognise that each case will vary in complexity and urgency. I would like to thank the Welsh Government again for its support in preparing this amendment, and I think that it strikes the right balance between the timely oversight and practical discretion, so I hope that Members will support this amendment.

And to turn to amendment 131, this would give the OEGW the express power to apply for a judicial review, or to intervene in civil proceedings where necessary. Now, witnesses to the committee did raise concerns that without this express power, the OEGW's standing before the courts could be weakened, particularly as a new body establishing its legal authority, and similar powers are already provided to the Office for Environmental Protection and Environmental Standards Scotland.

The Deputy First Minister has said that the OEGW could use its supporting powers to apply for a judicial review or to intervene in court cases, and that anyone with legal standing can also do so. While this is true, it would be clearer and I think safer if this ability were explicitly stated on the face of the Bill, so that there is no doubt about the OEGW's legal powers, and for there to be consistency with the other bodies in the rest of these islands.

Diolch, Delyth. I have no other speakers, so I'll invite the Cabinet Secretary.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Let me first of all turn to amendment 62, changing the minimum period with which an urgent compliance notice may require action to be taken. I'm very happy to explain why we've gone for the timescale that we have, and why this amendment isn't necessary.

Urgent compliance notices are designed for situations where actions must be taken swiftly by a public authority to prevent or mitigate an imminent and serious risk of damage to the environment or to human health. And it'll help the committee in a moment if I give an example of where this has been used in a different administration. When we were preparing the Bill, we gave careful consideration to the timescales for dealing with these urgent matters, balancing the need for swift resolution against giving sufficient time for a public authority to prepare and submit a meaningful response. For those who are aware of the way that this will work, you could be talking about multiple partners actually being engaged in this process.

The minimum seven-day period is intended to allow time for internal clearance and review requests as well, and it allows at least five working days as a result, while recognising also the need for rapid intervention. So, it is my clear view, and based on our analysis of it, that a less period of time could, arguably, be unreasonable and potentially could be ineffective in achieving a meaningful response, where you've really drawn on those people who need to feed into it.

We also considered the relative urgency of matters that would be covered by an urgent compliance notice, and this is where I think the distinction is helpful to make. Importantly, we have to recognise that the OEGW is not a front-line regulator, in the way that other regulators are; it's focused on strategic oversight. It is not expected to deal with matters requiring immediate resolution, within hours or days. The urgency here is relative—it's on the procedures, rather than emergency-level intervention, which will actually be handled, as it is now, by the regulatory bodies, in accordance with their powers. Therefore, even the urgent compliance notices do not have the same immediacy as regulatory enforcement action taken by bodies such as our environmental regulators in cases of things such as acute pollution incidents or safety hazards.

So, it's on this basis we consider the seven-day window to be the minimum, reflecting the balance between urgency and procedural fairness. We don't want any reduction in this to disrupt this balance. Just to say, an example of this could be seen in Northern Ireland, in the pre-application letter for a judicial review from OEP guidance, which was to do with the breach on environmental law on ammonia guidance—yes, ammonia guidance—which was going out to local authorities. They stepped in to make sure that there was compliance, so they issued. But it's not the same as an urgent pollution incident, or something like that.

So, amendment 63—the rationale for the seven-day window here is the same as with my remarks on the previous amendment. We need to give the public authority adequate time to provide a meaningful response to the urgent compliance notice, which may include, by the way, requesting for it to be reviewed. That's why we think seven days is the right balance.

On amendment 130, in Delyth's name, the policy expectation was always that the OEGW would act reasonably in response to requests for reviews of compliance notices. However, there was no express requirement on the face of the Bill for it to carry out the review within particular timescales. Now, actually, in looking at amendment 130, I'm content that this amendment does effectively address CCEI committee recommendation 23—and my thanks to the Member for introducing this—because this requires OEGW to conduct a review of the compliance notice as soon as reasonably practicable after it receives a request for such a review. So, we'll support that amendment.

Now, in terms of amendment 64, there are factors, I have to say, that may lead to the OEGW needing more than seven days to consider the request for a review. This could easily and conceivably be the complexity of the issues in the notice or the convening of the review panel. So, amendment 150, which requires the OEGW to conduct a review of a compliance notice as soon as reasonably practicable—as soon as reasonably practicable—after it receives a request for review, is a better and proportionate way of handling this concern.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Janet, do you wish to reply to the debate?

Yes. I'm going to withdraw my amendments 62, 63 and 64.

Okay. So, amendment 62 has been moved, so I just have to ask the committee's permission if you're content for 62 to be withdrawn. Yes. There we are. Okay, thank you.

So, you do not wish to move amendments 63—

Or 64.

Right. Well, 63—. We'll come to 64 in a minute. Delyth, do you wish to move amendment 130?

Yes, please.

There we are. The question is that amendment 130 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No. Amendment 130 is agreed.

So, Janet, do you not wish to move amendment 64, then? Yes. Okay. So, amendment 64 is not moved.

I move amendment 15 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 15 be agreed. Does any Member object? No objection. Amendment 15 is therefore agreed.

Delyth, do you wish to move amendment 131?

No. I'm content not to move that.

There we are, not moved.

And that brings us on to the next group, which is the tenth group of amendments relating to the Office of Environmental Governance Wales's duty to consult counterparts. The lead and only amendment in this group is amendment 132, and I call on Delyth Jewell to move and to speak to her amendment.

Thank you, Chair. I speak to amendment 132.

This would create a clear duty for the OEGW to consult and co-operate with its counterparts, the Office for Environmental Protection and Environmental Standards Scotland. This would mirror similar provisions in UK and Scottish legislation and would ensure the co-operation is built into the law rather than being left to chance. Mark Roberts, who is the chief executive of Environmental Standards Scotland, told the committee that the ability for governance bodies to share information is, and I quote,

'a really valuable safeguard',

and will be

'a real strength for the UK environmental governance system'

if included in Welsh legislation. I think it would also be helpful to know whether the Welsh Government considers this provision would require consent from a UK Minister and, if so, whether the Government would be willing to pursue that.

Diolch yn fawr, Delyth. I don't have any other speakers. Cabinet Secretary, do you wish to speak?

Thank you very much. Delyth, I understand why you're putting this amendment forward, and I think I can give you some clarity that might be very helpful that explains why this isn't necessary. But it's important that I explain why. It's going to be a matter for the OEGW itself, and we feel that principle is important, about how it exercises its powers. But it is anticipated that the OEGW could, for example, use its supplementary powers to enter into agreements with relevant bodies in relation to the exercise of its functions, such as investigations into areas of common concern that apply in relation to Wales.

Now, as Members will know, it will be required to set out in its strategy how it will collaborate with other persons for the purpose of the exercise of its functions, and we touched on this earlier. But interestingly, the interim body here in Wales doing a really good job—the interim environmental protection assessor for Wales—already has, just of interest to the committee, a memorandum of understanding with the OEP and the ESS, and it has a very good working relationship on that basis. And the fact that this is effective, that these organisations want to work together, when the IEPAW is not at this moment a statutory body, shows also why this provision is unnecessary. There are other ways within this legislation now that build on the relationships that have already been built up that mean that this amendment is not needed.

Diolch yn fawr. Delyth, do you wish to respond?

Well, I appreciate the Cabinet Secretary's points. At this stage, I'm happy to withdraw it and not push it to a vote and to reconsider.

Fine. So, the Member is requesting to the committee that she's allowed to withdraw amendment 132. Are Members content with that? There we are. Okay. Amendment 132 is withdrawn, then.

The eleventh group of amendments relates to disclosure of information and confidentiality, and the lead amendment in this group is amendment 16.

I move amendment 16 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary, and I call on him to speak on his amendment and the other amendments in the group.

Thank you, Chair. Amendments 16, 17, 18 in my name make necessary amendments to reflect changes to the Data Protection Act 2018 made by the insertion of section 183A of that Act by the Data (Use and Access) Act 2025. Section 183A came into force on 20 August this year.

So, the effect of section 183A is that, in the absence of express provision to the contrary, all provisions about processing personal data enacted in other legislation after that date, including in this Bill, are subject to the general requirements in the main data protection legislation—i.e. they cannot override it. So, amendment 16, therefore, inserts a signpost to that provision.

Amendments 17 and 18 make consequential amendments and omit provisions that are now redundant due to the coming into force of section 183.

Diolch yn fawr. I don't have any other speakers. I presume you have no wish to reply to your own contribution, so we'll move to—[Laughter.] Having said that—. No, there we are. So, we're on 16, aren't we? So, the question is that amendment 16 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No objection. Amendment 16 is agreed.

I move amendment 17 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. So, the question is that amendment 17 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No objections. Amendment 17 is therefore agreed as well.

And I move amendment 18 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 18 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No objection. Therefore, amendment 18 is agreed.

Amendment 160 in the name of Rhys ab Owen fell as a consequence of another amendment earlier, so we will move on to group 12.

The twelfth group of amendments relates to the meaning of 'environmental law' in Part 2 of the Bill. The lead and only amendment in this group is amendment 19.

And I move amendment 19 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary and call on him to speak to his amendment.

Thank you, Chair. I hope this amendment will find favour with the committee, because it reflects recommendation 25 of the committee's report. It places a requirement on the Welsh Ministers to consult with the OEGW and such other persons as they consider appropriate if they propose to make regulations to provide that a devolved provision is or is not within the definition of environmental law for purposes of Part 2 of the Bill. We would consider it unreasonable for Welsh Government to alter the boundaries of what constitutes environmental law without first consulting the OEGW and others they consider appropriate anyway. So, I have no objections to placing the requirement to consult on a statutory basis.

Okay. Well, we'll move straight to a vote on this one, I think. So, the question is that amendment 19 be agreed to. Does any Member object?

Chair, what about Rhys ab Owen's—?

I explained earlier that that had fallen as a consequence of a previous amendment.

That's the one that's fallen, is it? Right. Okay.

So, we're now on group 12 of amendments and we're considering whether there's any objection to amendment 19. No objections. So, amendment 19 is agreed.

Right, we move on to a different part of the Bill now—biodiversity targets. The thirteenth group of amendments relates to biodiversity targets under new section 6B of the Environment (Wales) Act 2016. The lead amendment in this group is amendment 133, and I call on Delyth Jewell to move and speak to the lead amendment and other amendments in the group.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. I will speak to amendment 133 to begin with, then. This would aim to better reflect Wales's commitments under the global biodiversity framework to put nature on a path to recovery so that biodiversity is restored in the long term.

Now, there is no suspicion, I don't believe, from anyone about the current Cabinet Secretary's intentions here. This, again, would be guarding against situations arising in the future, where limiting the biodiversity target's power to simply halt and reverse biodiversity loss could risk a minimal interpretation and could cap ambition in the longer term.

Amendments 134 and 135 draw on goal A of the global biodiversity framework, which seeks to increase the abundance of native Welsh species to healthy and resilient levels. The 2023 state of nature report found that the average abundance of terrestrial and freshwater species in Wales had declined by 20 per cent over the last three decades. The amendment—well, these amendments—ensure that modest improvements are not seen as just sufficient and that biodiversity is genuinely restored to levels that are sustainable.

There has been a lot of debate in this committee that's focused on the meaning of 'enhance' and whether that is ambitious enough. Ecosystem restoration is an active and essential process, providing good-quality habitats for species, capturing carbon and moderating water flow and flood risk.

Amendment 135 clarifies that enhancing ecosystem resilience would include active habitat creation and restoration, such as rewetting peatlands or restoring native woodlands through planting or natural regeneration.

Amendment 136 ensures Welsh Ministers set a short-term target to reverse the decline in species abundance, in addition to targets under the priority areas in 6C. Now, this target aligns with the global biodiversity framework aiming for species abundance to be higher in 2034 than in 2030. Abundance is a key biodiversity measure that responds to short-term actions, and setting this target on the face of the Bill provides a clear north star to guide recovery, as was put across to us in evidence. Without that, Wales would risk losing critical time leading up to 2030, when urgent action is needed.

To turn to amendment 137, this relates to swifts, an iconic summer species, and they have declined by 75 per cent in the last quarter century. Amendment 137 would ensure that the targets under this Bill support a thriving swift population each summer. That would mean healthy habitats rich in flying insects, as well as nesting opportunities. Now, incorporating swift bricks into new buildings would be a key measure to provide homes for returning swifts and secure their future in Wales.

Amendment 138 would clarify that 'pollution' includes air pollution. This, I believe, is important because air pollution continues to pose such serious risks to public health and the environment across Wales. Air pollution contributes to respiratory illnesses, it worsens cardiovascular conditions, it affects biodiversity. Certain areas, particularly around industrial zones and major roads, experience a higher level of pollutants, such as nitrogen dioxide and particulate matter. Now, while 138 is a probing amendment—that is true of some others in this group as well—it would still be helpful, please, if the Minister—the Cabinet Secretary, forgive me—could set out how this Bill would address air quality, whether specific targets or measures would cover key pollutants, and what additional actions might need to be taken outside the Bill.

To turn to amendment 139, this clarifies that 'pollution' includes contaminated land; it is associated with an earlier amendment in an earlier group. This, again, is important because contaminated land risks falling between the gaps of planning, historic protection, remediation legislation, and the forward-looking targets of this Bill. Legacy pollution remains a critical issue. Research by Friends of the Earth Cymru this year identified that there could be over 45,000 potential contamination sites in Wales, including abandoned metal mines and disused landfills. Around 6 per cent of our population live near land possibly contaminated by historic metal mining. Now, that's associated with lead pollution. PFAS has been detected in all otters tested across Wales and England, and PCBs threaten the UK killer whale population. Now, while this is a probing amendment again, it would be helpful, please, if the Cabinet Secretary could set out how this Bill would address legacy pollution, whether specific targets will cover these forms of contamination, and what additional actions might be needed to be taken outside the Bill.

Finally in this group, from me, amendment 140. This would clarify that 'pollution' includes river pollution. Now, this will be important because fresh water ecosystems are vital for our biodiversity, for our health and the environment. Rivers in Wales face pressures from sewage discharges and other pollutants that threaten our fish populations, aquatic invertebrates and water quality for our communities. Protecting rivers is essential for supporting biodiversity, ensuring safe water supplies and maintaining resilient ecosystems. I'll say again that this is a probing amendment, but it would be helpful to hear how this Bill will address river pollution, whether specific targets will apply, and what additional actions may need to be taken outside the Bill. As with other groups, I would like to put on record my thanks for the support from various ENGOs in preparing for these amendments.

Diolch, Delyth. Carolyn.

I speak to amendments 52, 53 and 54. The amendments address recommendation 30 of this committee's recent report with regard to introducing short- and long-term targets. Amendment 54, in particular, defines '15 years' as less than 15 years after the target was set—that's part of the short-term target, so, it's any time up to 15 years—and 'long term' as at least 15 years after the target was set. These amendments will play an important role in making sure that this legislation drives urgent action in the short term, as well as sustained action in the decades ahead. We need to do both; to tackle the climate and nature emergencies together, we need to do both, and have short and long-term targets. And so, I hope we can support these amendments today.

Can I also speak to amendment 137, which is about the introduction of swift bricks? I led a petition regarding the introduction of swift bricks. I'm also a member of the North Wales Wildlife Trust, and it's something that was supported right across the Senedd. We've also got the swift champion here—the species champion here. So, it's something that's really well supported.

We also need to have messy gardens as well. Swift bricks on their own just don't do it, because swifts eat so many insects. And I'd like to also see the introduction of hedgehog corridors as well. That's something that's important. So, I'd like the Cabinet Secretary to speak to this, about why we can't include it, because I wasn't happy with the Cabinet Secretary's response to the petition—no, not you, sorry, the Cabinet Secretary for housing's response to the petition—as to why we could not mandate it in all new builds. So, I'd like this Cabinet Secretary to respond, please. Thank you.

Thank you, Carolyn. Okay, I invite Janet to speak.

Jenny wanted to come in.

I know, but we take them in order.

Oh, sorry. Okay.

Janet to come in, and I think, Janet, you wish to make some comments on behalf of Rhys as well.

Thank you. In relation to moving 65A, 1 and 2—I just want to move those amendments.

Oh, right, okay. So, you do not wish to speak on this group of amendments. Let's hear from Jenny first, then, and we can come back to Janet if you wish to speak on some of this.

As the Chair has said, I'm the swift champion, and I was promised that, for all new buildings of a certain height, it would be mandatory to have swift bricks in them by your predecessor. So, I'm very concerned that this aspect of the Bill has been used as an excuse to kick targets into the long grass. And given the uncertainty about who the next Government will be, I'm pretty concerned about that.

A 75 per cent decline in swifts. I think the amendment proposed by Delyth Jewell, 137, is—. I need some convincing if I'm going to support this. I think it needs to determine the height of the developments where this should be required, because swifts aren't going to nest in bungalows, you know. So, there has to be a certain height, and that's obviously down to consultation with the experts. But this is such a serious matter—a 75 per cent decline, when it used to be such an iconic sound of all our summers.

I think, separately, I also would back up the concerns that Delyth Jewell has expressed around air pollution. This is a massive issue for my constituents, simply because of the insufficiency of measures to encourage people to take alternative methods of transport other than cars. And nowhere do we see this more than this time of year, where everybody is queuing up to get into one particular car park in the city centre of Cardiff. It's completely ridiculous, but it's also terrible for my constituents' health.

But, on this particular issue, Cabinet Secretary, I need to understand why we haven't already put in building regulations on this matter, and why is it going to take a Bill for anybody to do anything on it. So, I'll wait to hear what you have to say, but we can't go on like this, just watching nature decline and waiting for targets to be set until we've appointed the office of the future generations commissioner and their deputy and their non-executive director. Meanwhile, the situation for nature is really disastrous. So, I look forward to hearing what you have to say.

Thank you, Jenny. Right, Janet, over to you.

Thank you. Diolch, Chair. So, I'm moving amendments 65, 66 and 67. And then, afterwards, I'll move the amendments by Rhys ab Owen, my colleague. So, this amendment inserts a headline target in the Bill to reflect the overall ambition for biodiversity recovery by 2050. Before setting a target, the Welsh Ministers, and indeed we as Senedd Members, must be satisfied that meeting the target or the amended target is achievable and would result in the improvement in the status of species, ecosystems and biodiversity recovery in Wales. Now, this amendment is aligned to recommendation 28 by our committee. The original version I was going to table included 2030 instead of 2035, but I believe that the delay in bringing forward this Bill, and the time it will take to receive Royal Assent and provisions coming into force, means that it would be difficult for the 2030 target to be achieved. That failure should rest heavily on the shoulders of the Welsh Labour Government.

Amendment 66 inserts 'maintaining common species' as a priority area for the Welsh Ministers under new section 6B of the Environment (Wales) Act 2016. The amendment builds on the feedback that we've heard from many NGOs, but also to include the RSPB Cymru. If anyone sat around this table hasn't looked at some of the decline, in particular in terms of birds and other sea mammals and all sorts, but birds in particular—. We really do need to tighten up our target setting and ensure that this Bill delivers in terms of nature recovery. It's vital that this framework seeks to drive the recovery, not only of threatened species, but also species that are widespread but declining as well, keeping common species common. This is in keeping with target 4 and goal A of the GBF.

Amendment 67 shortens the timescales for the Welsh Ministers to lay regulations with biodiversity targets for priority areas from three years to 18 months. We've heard very strong evidence that this time frame is too long, and we've heard it from Wales Environment Link and RSPB Cymru. The Royal Society of Chemistry highlighted that targets were set for England within 13 months of the UK Act receiving Royal Assent. If they can achieve it in 13 months in England, why is three years the target here?

Thank you. Did you wish to make some comments on behalf of Rhys?

Yes. Do you want me to do that now?

Yes, please. Yes.

Okay. So, again on behalf of my colleague and friend Rhys ab Owen, I will first address amendment 65A. The Kunming-Montreal global biodiversity framework, the GBF, was adopted during the fifteenth meeting of the Conference of the Parties, which is COP15, following a four-year consultation and negotiation process. Among the framework's key elements are the 23 targets for 2030. In adopting the Kunming-Montreal global biodiversity framework, all parties committed to setting national targets to implement it. Now, the United Kingdom as a whole is a signatory, and Wales has committed to the framework's goals through its national policies. In fact, on 4 October 2022, the Welsh Government did make a statement in Plenary noting:

'Through the deep-dive, we identified key recommendations to ensure meaningful delivery of the target known as 30x30: protecting and effectively managing at least 30 per cent of our land, freshwater and sea for nature by 2030. This is one of the global targets to be agreed at COP15.'

The Welsh Government was committed to meaningful delivery of the 30x30 target before it was agreed. Wales was represented—and this is Rhys speaking—by my friend and colleague Julie James MS, then Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change, in Montreal when the target was agreed. The 'Halting and reversing the loss of nature by 2030' report, was published by this committee in January 2025. That records how the Welsh Government informed your legislators, and he quotes:

'it's probably too early right at this moment to measure quite where we are on that trajectory. But the commitment stands very strong—30x30 is where we're heading.'

Eleven months later, we're not just talking about the target, but to all intents and purposes, we've given up on it. Whilst the White Paper proposed that this Bill includes a headline target mirroring the GBF commitment on 2030 and 2050, you have not been forthcoming. What is at the heart of the situation here is that this Welsh Government has been too slow in bringing forward this legislation. He's actually echoing some of my comments earlier. As the Wales Environment Link put it in their evidence:

'The Bill currently requires targets to be set within 36 months of Royal Assent—this timeframe means that targets might not be set until 2029. Given that the target priority areas are based on the GBF 2030 Targets, it would be unacceptable to delay target setting to a point where no measurable progress could be made by 2030. There is a clear risk the urgent change needed to reverse biodiversity loss would be delayed as a result.'

Thank you, Janet. Julie, you wanted to come in as well.

Yes. I just wanted to give my support for the general concern that has been expressed about swifts, particularly as we have the swift champion here today, who has given us evidence that there's been a 75 per cent cut. So, I wanted to ask the Cabinet Secretary if he could look for a way to ensure that this emergency is addressed swiftly.

No pun intended. [Laughter.]

I don't know whether this amendment is worded in the right way to achieve that, but I just want to express general sympathy for this situation. It doesn't seem beyond the bounds of possibility for us to take urgent action on this situation.

Thank you. Carolyn has just corrected me—or corrected herself, really—in that it was the Cabinet Secretary for planning, not housing, who responded to the swift box debate. So, just for the record, to get it right.

Fine. Cabinet Secretary, do you wish to respond to those comments?

Yes, indeed. Thank you very much. There is a range of comments there, and a big range of amendments as well. So, please, again, excuse me in advance if I respond in some detail, because I think it merits having some quality in the response here to some well-thought-out amendments, and I will explain where, for some of them, we have some real empathy with them and some, I think, we can support as well, and where not, there are reasons why.

Let me first of all turn to Delyth's amendment 133. Let me state at the outset that I recognise the interest in the target-setting framework, everybody has made it clear and it's been a theme of the scrutiny of this legislation, but particularly setting out a focus on recovery and restoration. So, we've been working—my teams of officials have been working with key stakeholders to understand their concerns with the current drafting. I've been consistently clear that the legal effect of halting and reversing the decline in biodiversity includes active improvement, but I do acknowledge the concerns that have been raised. So, I'm keen to work with committee members and with stakeholders to reflect the principle, the spirit, the ambition behind this amendment. In the current format, I cannot support the amendment, but if the Member is minded to withdraw this amendment, I'll take it away, I'll give consideration to bringing forward an amendment and work with committee members at Stage 3, because we can see what the intent is here, we just need to think through how it will be rightly phrased for this Bill.

On amendment 134, again, as in my response on amendment 133, I'm happy to take this away and, again, work with committee members to bring forward an appropriate amendment at Stage 3.

Amendment 20 is in my name. I'm bringing forward this amendment to ensure that Welsh Ministers have regard to the list in section 7 of the Environment (Wales) Act 2016 when considering whether a biodiversity target will contribute to any of the three matters listed under section 6B(2). These are, just to remind committee members: increasing the abundance of native species; enhancing ecosystem resilience; and increasing genetic diversity, rather than just increasing the abundance of native species. Now, this followed detailed discussions with stakeholders during Stage 1 scrutiny and since then.

The section 7 list identifies the species and habitats of principal importance for biodiversity in Wales. Biodiversity, as we know, is not just about species—it also encompasses ecosystems and genetic diversity too. So, without this amendment, the focus could have been too narrow and could risk an approach that overlooks the very habitats and the genetic variation essential for nature recovery. So, this change strengthens the duty and ensures that decisions are grounded in a really comprehensive view of biodiversity.

Amendment 135 in Delyth's name to do with the definition of enhancing the resilience of ecosystems so that it includes taking action to conserve, restore, create a particular type of habitat or ecosystem—I'm happy to explain and clarify why we don't feel that this is necessary. The explanatory memorandum provides a very clear explanation of what is meant by ecosystem resilience and the effective management of those ecosystems. It is also, by the way, a term that is used elsewhere in the Environment (Wales) Act 2016 without definition, so, for example, in the principles of the sustainable management of natural resources, SMNR, in section 4 and in section 6. So, it could be confusing to insert a definition here. So, that's why I don't support this amendment and don't think it's necessary.

On amendment 52 in the name of Carolyn Thomas, I support this amendment. It's a consequential change due to amendments—which I'll turn to in a moment—53 and 54, which introduce those short and long-term targets. And that's been a lot of the discussion that's gone through this committee and also our engagement with stakeholders. It ensures that section 6C is included in the list of provisions where the defined terms 'specified standard'—the standard the target must achieve—and 'specified date'—the date by which that standard has got to be met—apply. And this gives consistency across the framework for setting and achieving targets.

If I turn to the amendments 65A and 65 in the name of Rhys and Janet. I'll speak to these amendments together. I don't support these amendments, but I'll explain why. It's partly because one of these amendments is very broad in its scope. So, the intention of this Bill is to develop targets to align, where relevant, with the UN Convention on Biological Diversity—I think we're agreed on this. So, currently this means aligning with a global biodiversity framework, the GBF, which was developed to address the key drivers of biodiversity loss, and it recognises that targets have to be developed in a systematic way to address the nature emergency—not in an ad hoc way, but in a really systematic way. Targets will not only need to reflect the biophysical elements of biodiversity, but also to address the wider drivers, and the pressures and the levers that are leaning into biodiversity loss.

Amendment 137 in Delyth’s name introduces the requirement to set the target of abundance for swifts, for the incorporation of swift bricks in new housing developments. I think I have to declare my interest now. Having thought that I'm not, I'm also a species champion, but not for swifts; I'm in the rivers and seas space with my salmon, also a highly threatened species, the king of fish. So, it shows the importance of getting this Bill into place there.

I think there is work. Let me just deal with a substantive issue outwith of this legislation. There is a job of work to be done with swifts as there is with a number of species. This Bill can assist in this, and I'll explain how it can do it in a moment, but I think there is a wider piece of work and it's a cross-Government piece of work, which you rightly identify, that deals with building and planning et cetera, et cetera. We also need to deal with, in my portfolio, some of the other things that are impacting on swifts, which includes the impacts of climate change. The weather pattern changes that we're seeing are having a material effect on the migratory patterns of swifts as well, so we need to deal with it all. So, there are individual items that we can look at going forward, and I'm open to discussing that with you as the swift champion and other committee colleagues.

But let me say what this Bill can actually do within this space: the swift championing that you've been doing, the interest in swift bricks, which was the subject indeed of a petition earlier this year, shows the sheer public support around this issue. But I would also say it's not only swifts; there are other species that inhabit our gardens as well, and that point that you make, Carolyn, about messy gardens, is a pertinent one. I genuinely have a very messy garden, and I do have swifts. They're not nesting in my place; I've tried my best, but they're nesting in a neighbour's area, but you watch them out in the evening over the various insects that are flying about and so on, it's great to see. But we also have hedgehogs, because we have a slightly unmanaged garden, and it's great to see. I just have to keep control of my garden, because it feels like a wild space.

But I recognise that there's more we need to do across a range of native species, and one of the areas that's focused on is swift bricks. Now, swift bricks could help boost numbers, but there are other areas we need to work on as well, and this includes the effective management of ecosystems, which is a priority area set out within this legislation. So, the targets that will be set out will be evidence led; they’ll be informed by expert advice. So, for example, the biodiversity target advisory panel is set up in order to provide transparency and rigour as we bring forward these targets. The panel will give that balance of independent relevant expertise, provide that evidence-based advice expertly, recommendations, and peer review throughout the target-creation progress, both on the method of target creation and the content of the statutory biodiversity targets in Wales. So, I don't consider that this amendment, even though it has highlighted the issue around swifts and swift bricks, is necessary or appropriate here, but there are wide-ranging powers and duties set out in the target-setting framework within this Bill.

Now, amendment 1 in Rhys's name focuses on reducing pollution priority area 6C(2)(c), but that it's not limited to microplastic pollution. I don't support this amendment, because I don't consider it's required. It would be more appropriate to use the reducing pollution priority area to set such a target, should the evidence, the indicators and modelling through the development work identify this as a priority.

On amendment 138 in the name of Delyth, I don't support this amendment, because there's a conflict here with section 6C(3), which sets out that targets may not be set in respect of a matter within the reducing pollution priority area, if a target may be set in respect of that matter under the Environment (Air Quality and Soundscapes) (Wales) Act 2024. It's specifically laid out in that way. It's done to make clear there's no intention to duplicate the Welsh Ministers’ target-setting powers or duties under that Act, and to avoid any conflict or confusion on the statute book and for regulators, delivery partners, the general public and stakeholders.

So, amendment 139, Delyth, attends to the issue of soil pollution and contamination. Again, we don't support this amendment because we don't think it's necessary. Again, it's in the theme of where this can be dealt with within the legislation. The reducing pollution priority area is drafted so that it captures all forms of pollution except for targets that could be within the scope of the air pollution quality Act, and that's made clear in the explanatory notes and memorandum. So, that can be done, and it's captured within the legislation already.

Amendment 140 seeks to clarify the scope of the reducing pollution priority so that it includes, but is not limited to, river pollution. Now, the reason we don't support this amendment is again because we don't think it's necessary. The reducing pollution priority area is drafted so that it captures all forms of pollution, across land, fresh water and the marine environment, except for those targets related to the air quality Act. And, again, we've made that clear, so it can be done, but it's already in there.

Amendment 66, Janet, adding 'maintaining common species' to the list of priority areas, we don't support this amendment because the term 'common species' is unclear, especially when considered in the context of the defined term already used in the Bill of 'native species'. This amendment could conflict with priority area (a), which is reducing the risk of the extinction of native species. For example, 'common species' suggests species that are widespread and abundant regardless of origin, so this could include non-native species such as the grey squirrel.

Diolch, Cabinet Secretary. Delyth to respond to the debate.

Diolch. Thank you to everyone who took part in that debate. Firstly, on amendment 133, the need for restoration, yes, I'm happy to withdraw that amendment, because the Cabinet Secretary said that he's managed to look at more appropriate wording, and I'd be very keen to work with the Cabinet Secretary on that before Stage 3. Likewise with 134. So, on that basis, I'd be happy to withdraw those amendments.

Okay. On the swifts, there was a lot of agreement on the need for action on swifts. I took Jenny's point—. I should have mentioned Jenny as the swift champion at the start, and I declare an interest that I am the champion for the shrill carder bee. But on this point, Jenny's point about the height that is needed for buildings and other considerations, I would be happy to withdraw the amendment and for Members to work together to look at something to bring forward at Stage 3 on this.

On air pollution, Jenny had not just raised concerns, but also signalled support for the principle of what I was bringing up here, because I mentioned the effect that it has on cardiovascular health and it also has the most horrendous effect on children's respiratory health, and it's associated with increased incidence of miscarriage. It's this hidden harm in our society. I really do have serious concerns about this. I recognise the technical point that the Deputy First Minister made, that this is dealt with in another piece of legislation and so not to double up. As I said, this was a probing amendment, and I think that perhaps I won’t be pushing it to a vote, but if there were ways in which this could be named without it undoing or duplicating what's done elsewhere—. I will look again at it before Stage 3, because unless something is done, we will continue to see this disastrous increase in people's associated health risks.

The same point is true, really, for all of those other amendments that I said were probing in nature. I don't intend, at this time, to push them to a vote, but I do note that the Deputy First Minister had said that this Bill can deal with these issues. My concern is particularly, again, guarding against other Governments in the future: the Bill means that these issues can be dealt with, but it doesn't necessarily mean that they will be dealt with under the legislation. That is why I will not push them to a vote at this time, but I would be keen to work with other Members to see if there were some kind of wording we could work on ahead of Stage 3, just to—. Again, I don't have any suspicions about this Government's intentions here; it's future Governments I'm worried about, potentially.

Okay. Diolch yn fawr. A point of information—

I just want to declare an interest as species champion for waxcap fungi.

Fine.

Should I—?

Well, it's all on the record.

Okay.

I mean, we're fine. We've declared an interest before. I don't think there's a conflict of interest for particular species, unless it's directly referred to, I think, in the legislation.

So, Delyth, you've indicated that you won't be moving some amendments. We'll take them as we come to them and you can tell us, but you have already moved amendment 133, so with the committee's permission, you'd like to withdraw it. Is the committee content with that? Yes, there we are. Okay. Amendment 133 is withdrawn.

So, Delyth, do you wish to move 134?

No, for the same reason.

No. Okay.

So, I move amendment 20, in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 20 is agreed. Does any Member object? No objection. Amendment 20 is therefore agreed.

Delyth, amendment 135.

I would like to move that.

There we are. The question is that amendment 135 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection. We will vote on that amendment. All those in favour of 135, please show. Three. And against. Three. It's a tied vote. I use my casting vote in the negative against amendment 135 in accordance with Standing Orders, meaning that it falls.

Carolyn, do you wish to move amendment 52?

I do.

The question is that amendment 52 be agreed. Does any Member object? No objection. Amendment 52 is agreed.

Janet, amendment 65. Do you move?

Yes.

Before disposing of amendment 65, we need to dispose of the amendment to amendment 65, which is amendment 65A. Oddly enough, I think, Janet, you're going to be moving that on behalf of Rhys ab Owen.

Yes.

The question is that amendment 65A be agreed to first. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There's an objection. We will vote on amendment 65A. All those in favour, please show. Three. And against. Three. It's tied. I use my casting vote against amendment 65A according to Standing Orders, meaning that it does not pass.

That brings us to amendment 65, which has already been moved. The question is that it's agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There's an objection to amendment 65. We'll go to a vote. All those in favour of amendment 65. Three. All those against. Three. Once again, it's tied. I will cast my vote as Chair in the negative against amendment 65, meaning that it does not pass.

Delyth, amendment 136. Do you wish to move?

Yes.

The question is that amendment 136 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection. We will vote on amendment 136. All those in favour, please show. Three. And all those against. Three. That, again, is tied. I cast my vote in accordance with Standing Orders against amendment 136, meaning it falls.

Delyth, do you wish to move amendment 137?

No.

Amendment 137 is not moved.

Carolyn, do you wish to move amendment 53?

I do.

The question is that amendment 53 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No objection. Amendment 53 is agreed.

Janet, would you be willing to move amendment 1 in the name of Rhys ab Owen?

I would.

The question is that amendment 1 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There's an objection. Therefore, we will vote on amendment 1. All those in favour please show. Three. And against. Three. That vote is tied. I vote against in accordance with Standing Orders and my role as Chair, meaning that amendment 1 is not agreed.

Delyth, do you wish to move amendment 138?

No.

Amendment 138 is not moved.

Delyth, amendment 139.

No.

Amendment 139 is not moved.

Delyth, amendment 140.

No.

That isn't moved either.

Janet, do you wish to move amendment 66?

I would like to withdraw amendments 66 and 67.

We'll take amendment 66 first. Amendment 66 is not moved by the Member.

We move on to amendment 54. Carolyn, do you wish to move that amendment?

I do.

The question is that amendment 54 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There's an objection, we will vote. All those in favour of amendment 54, please show. Five. And all those against. One. Amendment 54 is therefore carried.

I move amendment 21 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 21 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No. Amendment 21 is agreed.

Janet, do you wish to move amendment 67?

No, withdraw.

That is not moved.

Janet, do you wish to move amendment 2 in the name of Rhys ab Owen?

I do.

The question is that amendment 2 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. We will vote on amendment 2. All those in favour, please show. Three. All those against. Three. As there's a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative, that is against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Orders, meaning that amendment 2 isn't passed.

We move on to group 14, which is a group of amendments relating to the process for setting biodiversity targets. The lead amendment in this group is amendment 68, and I call on Janet Finch-Saunders to move and speak to the lead amendment and the other amendments in the group.

Thank you. I move my amendments 68, 69, 70 and 71, and will be voting against amendment 22. This requires the Welsh Ministers to consult the Senedd's prevailing environmental committee and the public before making regulations under Part 3 of the Bill. This is a matter of public interest. Amendment 70 requires the Welsh Ministers to satisfy themselves that meeting a proposed target would not have an adverse impact on biodiversity outside Wales. The reason why I've tabled this is because it is a fact that this country is now becoming more reliant on imports, and I'm very mindful that, in some ways, we're offsetting our own climate change and nature recovery obligations. Achieving our nature and climate crisis obligations is resulting in us offshoring emissions.

For example, the sustainable farming scheme is expected to cause a livestock reduction by 5 per cent here. Anyone who can say, hand on heart, that our farmers are not up in arms about this kind of—. At the end of the day, we've got a food security issue already in this country. We've seen what's happening globally. I do not want to see a 5 per cent livestock reduction. There's certainly not going to be a 5 per cent reduction in food demand. So, that reduction is going to be made up by us increasing imports, which I just think is hypocritical, potentially from nations with far lesser standards than us. By operating in this way, I believe that Wales is being globally irresponsible. This amendment provides an opportunity for this to be addressed.

Amendment 71 requires the Welsh Ministers to have regard to ensuring a balance in relation to the land and sea, with the aim of preventing targets being set exclusively in relation to one and not the other. As we are seeing with carbon capture, the focus is very much on planting trees on land. I'm all in favour of planting trees on land, but I don't like the 10 per cent obligatory target that's been placed on farmers. They know best how to manage their own land.

Also, over the years, I've raised several times that a hectare of seagrass captures more carbon than a hectare of trees, and I don't think there is enough emphasis. Even Lord Deben, on the carbon budget 3, I think it was, stressed that he'd heard me quite a lot speaking up for the marine environment in terms of looking at our nature recovery, but also our carbon-zero targets. As we know with planning, the marine environment is often overlooked. Land has local development plans, whilst the sea is yet to have any meaningful infrastructure and a national marine development plan.

Recently, NRW published their 'Species in Peril in Wales' report. This was rightly picked up and was ran by numerous media outlets. However, for those who cared to find the report, they would discover that its actual title is, 'Terrestrial and Freshwater Species in Peril in Wales'. It's a pity Joyce Watson isn't here, in some ways—no disrespect to you, Jenny—because Joyce has always been fundamentally very strong, like me, on ensuring that the marine environment has a part to play and that it's widely recognised that we ignore that at our peril. The focus of this report is on terrestrial and freshwater species, and excludes those found in the marine environment other than breeding seabirds. The pattern is clear: land does receive far more attention than our marine environment. My amendment would help to reduce the risk of that happening.

Diolch yn fawr. Delyth.

Thank you. I'll speak mainly to amendment 141.

Amendment 141 would seek to ensure that there is a clear requirement for consultation on the biodiversity targets regulations. I think it's an important measure—or it would be, if it were passed—to give stakeholders, including environmental groups, local communities and experts, the opportunity to provide any input before the targets are finalised. Consultation helps ensure the regulations are robust, practical, and that they are in line with Wales's broader biodiversity and environmental goals. It would also promote transparency and public confidence in the process of setting those targets.

I will be voting against amendment 69, as well as the amendments that are associated with that, which will be discussed in later groups. My fear here is that these amendments, if they were passed, would limit the scope of biodiversity targets. I believe that they are based on an assumption that biodiversity targets would have a negative effect on agricultural output, which I don't think is necessarily the case, and indeed an assumption that agricultural output is the same as economic resilience in all cases.

I also think they could be unworkable, and furthermore that they could have an adverse negative effect on agriculture. They would lock the agriculture sector into chasing output instead of allowing farmers to adapt, to innovate and to focus on the quality of output rather than simply the quantity, if that's what's best for them. So, for those reasons, because of those potential unintended consequences—I know that's not what Janet would be seeking to do, of course—I will not be supporting those.

Diolch yn fawr. Jenny, you wish to speak.