Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee

Good morning once again to everyone who's watching, and welcome back to this meeting. We're moving straight to panel 2 now, still looking at Wales-Ireland relations. We have Jane Richardson here giving her evidence. I'll ask Jane to introduce herself for the record.

Thank you, Chair. I'm Jane Richardson, chief executive of Amgueddfa Cymru.

It's lovely to have you with us. We'll go straight into questions, if that's okay.

If I can ask you firstly, Jane: Amgueddfa Cymru has already given evidence to our inquiries previously, both looking at Wales-Ireland relations and also on 'Culture shock' and the effects of Brexit—could you please update us on your work with Ireland since then?

Yes, of course. Ireland has historically been, and continues to be, one of our most important strategic international partnerships. We're very targeted as an organisation as to where we feel we can have most impact, most benefit, for the people of Wales in terms of our international working, and Ireland is definitely at the top of that list.

So, at the corporate level, of course, we have a memorandum of understanding with the National Museum of Ireland. But across the museum family, be that through research, collections, curatorial staff, projects, there are all sorts of individual initiatives that have been developed through particular relationships. We've also developed a strong working relationship with the Consulate General of Ireland in Wales, which, of course, is a huge asset to us here in Wales. One key example of that was, in July of this year, we hosted the launch event for the Ireland-Wales shared statement at our National Waterfront Museum in Swansea. Also, since we were last presenting to the committee on this subject, we've opened the Vulcan at St Fagans, and the Vulcan, really, is right at the heart of the Irish community and Irish culture within Wales. That was, of course, in a part of Cardiff that was populated particularly by the Irish who moved over to Wales. So, we've been working with the consulate and the Irish community in Wales around the opportunity of the Vulcan, and events there, and how they can really see that as their community space to use as they want to.

Since I've taken office, I've also been really developing the relationships that we have at a corporate level with both the National Museum of Ireland and the National Gallery of Ireland. Only a week or two weeks ago, I was over in Dublin for the second annual meeting of the UK and Irish cultural institutions. This was organised by the UK Government's Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport and the Government of Ireland in Dublin. We were there, many of us from Wales—there was a really strong Welsh contingent—and we were looking at opportunities for joint programming, joint initiatives, collaboration, skills transfer. I'm really excited that there are some very specific projects that we are now developing with the National Museum of Ireland that we'll be putting forward for funding through that programme.

Thank you very much. We're pleased to hear that. I'll ask Mick to ask his questions.

Yes, just a few questions, and just commenting on the Vulcan and how much larger it seems from how I remember it from the 1970s and so on, but that's another matter. It's certainly a massive asset there at St Fagans. What would you identify as being, really, the main challenges, the main issues, that are affecting you that we need to look at, that we need to address, that you would like to see addressed at the moment?

I think that a lot of this work is happening as a result of goodwill and individual relationships, perhaps, rather than a clear set of strategic objectives that we can collectively work towards as bodies in Wales, not just the amgueddfa. So, I think that would be a key thing that could be improved. I think, clearly, funding would make a really big difference, and funding that was delivered over a long period of time. Just an experience I had the other day—so, I spend time in the museum with different teams that specialise in different areas of our work, and I spent some time with the marine biology team curators very recently. When you walk into that section of the museum, there's a huge poster on the wall, and it shows, obviously, the UK and then Ireland, but it focuses on the sea in between. And we can end up thinking about the two land masses, but we don't think about the fact that we have one sea between us, and what this poster shows is all the work that was done collaboratively between ourselves and our Irish partners over a very long period. It may be two decades—I might be wrong on that. What they were doing was they were tracking the life on the sea bed and how it was moving. And you can track—they're called bristle worms—different types of worms, where they are, where they've moved. And if you have long-term funding, then you don't just get a once-in-time snapshot—you keep revisiting it every maybe three, five years. And that was a massively insightful, important insight into climate change, because the worms and where they are is one of our best indicators of the changing temperatures of the waters, which is an indicator of the changing temperature of the planet. Now, the reason I'm raising that is because the post has stopped. There is no more work going on in that area. And so work that had been built up over many years, and a picture that was evolving, now no longer takes place. And I just thought, 'What a shame.' So, that kind of initiative, which I think is so important to our society now, relies on not just funding, but funding that is committed to over a long period of time, with a shared strategic objective that is something that we absolutely share in common for the benefit of all our communities.

I'm certainly intrigued by the bristle worm, which I knew very little about until just now. You've previously given evidence, really, about the situation with Brexit, and, of course, this is incredibly topical at the moment, in terms of discussions, in terms of everything that's happening and all the complications and issues that are arising as a result. Since you last gave evidence, has the situation changed? Are there any developments that you want to draw our attention to? Are there any particular areas of focus that you think are really important for us to address at this moment in time? Essentially, what has changed?

Obviously, there are challenges post Brexit—the loss of the funding, some of the important collaborations that we had and the research that we were doing under programmes like INTERREG. But I think you heard quite a lot about that from your previous witnesses. I think something I want to flag as a positive that has happened is that, in the past couple of years, the UK has become a signatory to the United Nations Convention for the Safeguarding of the Intangible Cultural Heritage. Now, for many, many years, we were an outlier in the UK to this. It is a really powerful statement that we have now joined it and, from my sector, intangible cultural heritage is one of the most important areas of overlap and synergy that we have with our friends in Ireland. So, being able to work together around crafts, skills, traditions, music, dance—all those things that, for me, make us what we are as Wales, and what makes Ireland what it is as Ireland—are captured, often, through our intangible heritage. When I went over to Dublin last week, I felt a greater synergy, if I'm honest, to the partners that I was meeting in Ireland than to many of the partners I meet in the wider UK, because there is a real shared sense of a culture, a set of values and the work that we do as organisations. And often, it's coming down to intangible heritage and it's coming down to inclusive histories. And I think that's another thing that has happened in the years since Brexit. There has been greater interest and engagement with telling the stories that weren't previously told, inviting people who perhaps weren't previously represented in our institutions to share their experiences. And we've done a lot with that in Wales and we've done some really pioneering work in the amgueddfa. And similarly, Ireland does such a lot around that. There are so many difficult stories, from Ireland's past, that they've been wrestling with. So, there are shared methodologies, commitments and values that I think have come more to the fore, ironically, since Brexit. So, although we can talk about everything that we've lost, I think we can also look at some of the things that have come to the fore and, perhaps in the way that we work together, take greater advantage of those.

I think the other thing we've done since Brexit, as a nation, is some really brilliant work with our 'Wales in' years. And I agree with Dafydd from the Arts Council of Wales that a year is not enough to deliver this work. You just get started after a year, and then exciting stuff is moving. But I think what it's done is create a kind of a methodology, a way of working, that has shown us that, if you take an all-encompassing approach to focusing on our relationship with a nation, you make a leap forward, rather than a gradual, step-by-step approach. So, I think those 'Wales in' years have been really helpful, and if we can perhaps reimagine how we do that moving forward, that could really deliver for our work with Ireland, I think.

We'll go to Heledd.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. I just wondered, obviously building on the points you made, Jane, in terms of greater synergy and so on, how the Wales-Ireland forum and also the shared statement are actually helping to progress that now. What's your feeling with the new statement, and how you're involved in that, because, obviously you're named as Amgueddfa Cymru again in this specifically? So, I just wondered how you are being supported to take that forward.

Diolch. I haven't got direct experience and engagement with the forum. The statement I can speak much more clearly about. So, I think—. I'm delighted that we're mentioned, because that's really important, because we really believe that we have an important role to play. So, isn't it great when cultural organisations are recognised?

I think the shame is that we tend to think in boxes, or put people and organisations into boxes, and that limits the full impact and the ability to realise the opportunity fully. So, I think, when the amgueddfa is cited in a statement like this, it tends to be more in the rather limited context of us purely as a cultural venue, as a museum. Whereas, really, on behalf of Wales, Amgueddfa Cymru is so much more, in terms of—. You know, we are an independent research organisation on a par with universities. So, our research work—we're the biggest provider of education outside of schools in Wales, so there's so much around learning, engagement, the collections. And I think what we're not doing enough of is reading across and seeing how organisations like ours can deliver to the bigger agenda that Wales has as a nation, and I think some of your previous witnesses spoke to this as well.

But we, as cultural bodies, and specifically us as the amgueddfa, can do so much for Wales around soft power. And if we could be engaging with wider teams in Welsh Government, with trade and investment, the economy et cetera, there are things that we could do to open up doors that have much wider benefits for Wales, beyond purely culture. And I think if you just see, with the recent work with France, the power of just agreeing that the Bayeux tapestry is coming to the UK—it just shows you that if we can get a really strong cultural connection, which is more widely linked into the strategic objectives of Government, around economic growth, skills development et cetera, et cetera, we can be a really positive, friendly way in into some of those, occasionally more challenging, conversations.

So, I really welcome the statement. I'm delighted we're in it. I think there's much more we could do on it if we look more broadly, and if we're a bit more joined up, and perhaps even a little bit more ambitious about what we want to get from it.

So, can I take from that—? Did you know you were going to be in it, and did you have any sight of it, or influence, prior to its publication? And also, will you be part of the forming of any action plans that you can help shape, with your involvement and the measures, linked to the fact that you're named? Sorry, lots of questions there.

I'm just going to hopefully go through them in order. I personally wasn't aware that we were going to be in the statement. I think we'd been referenced in the previous iteration, so perhaps it shouldn't have been a surprise to us. It may have been that people on my team were aware and just that I hadn't clicked it. But I can't say that I was aware. And, again, I haven't been engaged in any conversations about the action plan to date, or about how the work might go forward, but we're obviously very willing to be part of that, if that's welcome.

Is it something that you're proactively seeking through the Minister? Can I ask which department have you had the most contact with regarding this, or has it just been that you're named and that's it?

I haven't had contact with Government departments about it, beyond, obviously, us hosting the launch of it. Pretty much all of our contact with the Welsh Government comes through the culture department, and that's why I was saying, really, that it would be great to be more widely plugged in, I think.

Yes. So, in terms of the international relations team, then, you're not having those meetings or you've not been invited to anything around the action plan currently, just for clarity for us.

Not that I can remember. We have conversations with the international team, because we work with them whenever there are important visitors to Cardiff or other parts of Wales. We work with them on the 'Wales in'—so, on Wales in France, Wales in Japan, we worked very closely with them. But I'm not aware, personally, that we have been particularly closely involved in this particular piece.

Thank you. I think you've covered quite clearly there that the shared statement, maybe, captures some of your work with Ireland, but not all of it, and there's the potential for more. In terms of some of the things that we've seen before—. I know that you were talking about focusing on the positive, but is there anything that you think remains as something from Brexit that is still proving to be a barrier to some of the things that you'd like to achieve. Obviously, you mentioned research, and that's something that came through in our previous reports as being impacted because of there being less potential funding for collaborative projects. So, it's just to understand if things have progressed from our 'Culture shock' report previously, or are there some things that you'd still like to see movement on?

I think that the reality is that there aren't necessarily new challenges but that the challenges that were identified before remain. So, those challenges around research, like the bristle worms example, nothing has moved on. There has not become a new opportunity to do that kind of work. The funding that we had—. The beauty of European funding, of course, was that it was multi-year, so you could take a programme approach and recognise that, often, it can take three years for a project to deliver. So, all of those challenges that were flagged previously still remain. We haven't uncovered anything new, but it would be great to be able to address some of what are now becoming longer standing challenges.

Thank you. If I may just ask one other question, Chair. We also have a joint statement between the UK Government and the Irish Government. Arts and culture are referenced there. Are you part of any discussions relating to what that would look like on a UK-wide level? Is that something that the sector is engaged with and, if so, how?

Yes. So, that is really positive. In that context, we had the event that I referenced where I went to Dublin a couple of weeks ago. That piece of work at the UK level is really proactively bringing together the key cultural players from all parts of the UK and actively encouraging us to bring forward projects. The Irish Government has put €6 million into a fund that will enable us to develop projects, and we as Amgueddfa Cymru will be submitting projects under the themes of research and also skills and knowledge transfer, and we're doing that with the National Museum of Ireland, and also for one of the projects we will be teaming up with our friends at National Museums NI in Northern Ireland and the National Museum of Scotland as well. So, it feels like that has impetus, energy, it's being well co-ordinated, the British Council are playing a really important role, and that work is being underpinned by an important piece of research that I think Eluned brought to you in the previous session, and I'd really commend that research to you. It's a really interesting, revealing piece of work that shows where the barriers are now and what some of the opportunities are.

Thank you. There seems to be quite a contrast there in terms of how you're being involved here in Wales and on a UK level in terms of those statements. Can I ask, are you aware if the UK Government have any funds to support the work that you're involved with, or is it likely that all of the funds will be from the pot of money, the €6 million we heard about earlier that the Irish Government have set aside?

Our understanding is that, no, there is no money coming from the UK Government. We've obviously been asking about that, because it feels a bit awkward when you're in the room and all of the money is coming from one side. But, at the moment, there doesn't seem to be a commitment to money from the UK.

Is that likely, then, to impact on your resources—i.e. will you have to find, within Amgueddfa Cymru's current budget, any funding to help enable that work to happen?

I'm not 100 per cent sure. I think the money coming from the Irish Government is for both sets of partners. I don't think it's that that just funds the Irish bit and we have to fund the Welsh bit. But it's all so new and we've only just had sight of it, and the deadline is early in January, so we're discovering more about it as we do it at the moment. I'm not entirely clear.

Thank you, because, obviously, in terms of staff resource, there will be an implication for you there. And can I just ask, as part of the joint statement between the UK Government and Ireland does reference the Euro 2028 men's football championship and the role of each of the nations, are you involved in any of that preparatory work in terms of the cultural offer? But also, obviously, there's a huge opportunity to showcase our national museums to all those coming to Wales for that tournament as well.

Yes, it's a really exciting opportunity for us. I'm not aware that we, as yet, have been involved in the planning around that, but we have developed in recent years really great relationships with the Football Association of Wales, and we've supported both men's and women's championships, where Wales has been involved in both men's and women's championships. And we support with programming and exhibitions, and we also celebrate those who are representing Wales internationally at our sites. So, I would really anticipate that we would be part of that offer and can add that cultural dimension to that really exciting event.

Thank you.

Thank you. We'll go to Gareth.

Thank you very much, Chair. I want to touch on funding and resources and ask a couple of further questions relating to the earlier ones around the EU and Brexit and things. One of the most important messages we heard in our 2023 Wales-Ireland work was that funding was needed to match ambition, and, at that time, many witnesses were receiving the last of their EU funding. Has your sector been impacted by those funding challenges? I'd strongly guess that 'yes' would be the answer to that, but what effect has it had on your work with Wales-Ireland?

Well, yes, and to come back to an earlier point, research is really badly hit in that context. And it's through research that we deepen our understanding of our past within the museum and enable our visitors to learn new things about the future, as I was saying, for example, with climate change. So, when your funding is limited purely to UK sources, it's very competitive, and often we put forward a project and we might come in at No. 2, but there's only funding for one organisation, and therefore the research agenda isn't able to move forward as much as it would.

I think also it's just about networks and mobility. As museums, we grow when we get the opportunity to learn from one another, and, as I said, there is such amazing synergy with institutions in Ireland. I mean, even the portfolio of museums within the National Museum of Ireland is so similar to us, with an equivalent to St Fagans et cetera, but with funding being so tight, we can't, as an organisation, just say, 'Yes, go over for a research visit', to our visitor experience teams or curators, and, 'Learn how they're doing it over there', or, 'Why don't we go over and share knowledge about how we're using Welsh language in the visitor experience?', which is a bit more new to Irish organisations. So, lack of funding definitely impacts on how much we are able to do, and, as I say, a lot of the relationships are based on personal networks and goodwill, really.

Yes, and just in addition to that, just to hone in on the support from Governments and what you would like it to look like, do you think that that is the most critical part of delivering the ambitions of the shared statements? And what areas would you specifically target within that?

In terms of the priorities for the delivery?

Yes.

I think I would say that the priorities should be about taking a whole-term approach. So, if an administrative cycle is four years, seeing it, as a minimum, a whole administration effort and then putting a funding structure in place that reflects that, so that you can develop initiatives together. So, for example, if we were to do a collaboration and shared exhibitions, et cetera, an exhibition usually takes three years to develop, and so I would say, 'Take that longer view, learn from what we've done with Wales in Japan, Wales in France and then elevate that to a bigger, more purposeful approach to the relationship with Ireland.' And then I would suggest that there's a lot of work that we should do internally. So, it's not just about what we do between ourselves and Ireland, but how we really make stronger linkages within Wales so that it's a much more coherent offer, so that we strengthen the connections between the cultural organisations, we strengthen the relationship between those organisations and the different departments in Government, and particularly with the international departments and trade and invest, so that rather than cultural organisations just being seen as the bits that are done by those guys over there with the cultural portfolio, it's seen as being part of a wider effort.

So, I think that they would be my big recommendations: longer term approach, real focus and intent, perhaps with a dedicated cross-party group supporting it, and then really getting our ducks in a row behind the scenes so that everything is co-ordinated and connected, so that we get the biggest impact from the effort that we put into it.

And just finally, if I may, Chair, we heard from the previous panel this morning evidence to the tune of culture being regarded as fairly nebulous in some ways, and being quite hard to draw down specific and sustainable funding for in some senses. Do you see that challenge within the culture sector, and do you think that's a fair remark to make, in recognising some of those challenges in getting the funding they need, really?

I do, actually. I do. I think culture can sometimes be seen as the fluffy bit, or the 'nice to have'. I don't think everybody always realises the full power of what culture can unlock. A recent example would be the big investment summit that we had, with a big economic focus. Culture wasn't part of that. Had we been, there were all sorts of 'wow' moments we could create for a summit like that that could get to the heart as well as the head. And I think if you're trying to achieve a big ambition, like big economic investment into Wales, it's got to be heart; people aren't just going to do it on the figures and the economic projections. But if you can create a sense of excitement and wonder and wow about what Wales stands for and what we have and the treasures and the richness of what Wales is as a country, then we land some big economic wins. But that's what culture can bring, and that's why I think we've got to stop seeing it as being in a particular and perhaps more nebulous box, as you say, and get culture around the table to deliver on some of these bigger things for Wales.

Diolch.

Thank you, and we'll go to Lee.

Just to pick up your comment there about culture being neglected in the investment summit, was that something the sector raised in advance?

Yes. Well, whether the sector did, I can't say, sorry, Lee; we did as the amgueddfa. We made the case, and not least because, as you and the committee know, there is big investment needed in the cultural offer of Wales and the cultural infrastructure in Wales. And so we did press quite hard to be able to be included, but the remit was very tight for that event, and so it was felt that, for this particular event, there wasn't a need for us to be involved.

What was the rationale as you understood it?

I think it was just that it was a very limited guest list, very limited remit that was being targeted in very particular ways, and that our offer wasn't perhaps part of the way the event had been designed and the remit of the event.

Lee, I think Heledd just wants to ask something quickly.

May I just ask to whom did you make the representations? Was that to the Minister?

Not directly to the Minister. We were liaising. The culture department, of course, supported us in making representation to the international department. But it was at that level—it was the organising department that made the decision.

Thank you. I think it's quite at odds with what I heard from the Minister yesterday, where I was told that culture and sport were at the heart of the event, so certainly that's something we can pick up on. Thank you, Chair.

Diolch. Lee.

I think it's quite telling, isn't it? I just wanted to ask, in terms of what this committee might recommend to our successor, where you think the focus should be for the next Senedd term on Wales-Ireland relationships and any recommendations you think we should think about.

I think we should be really ambitious with it. I think we can definitely lead with a cultural offer. Let's have an ambition on scale of the Bayeux tapestry, let's go really big, but do that with the intention of wider benefits for Wales, so that you go for something really ambitious because it's going to deliver on skills, on economic growth, et cetera. If we did something really big on culture, it would get so much profile, excitement. People on the streets of both countries will talk about it, and then that opens the door to the bigger things. So, that's why I think—bring together a dedicated group to deliver on this opportunity. We've got the EU presidency coming. I think Wales-Ireland is probably the biggest international opportunity we've got. So, as they say, go big or go home. I would take it to a whole new level.

Interesting. What do you think might be our equivalent of the Bayeux tapestry?

We have an extraordinary set of collections that we can offer, and it would be interesting to talk to people in Ireland about some of their amazing treasures that they've got in the museums that will never have been seen in Wales before. I wouldn't want to put them on the spot right now by naming things, but if we had the mandate to be talking at that level—. Just look at what we did with Wales and France. We just exchanged one item each. We took Renoir's Blue Lady to the Musée d'Orsay, and we got a Van Gogh back. That was unbelievable in terms of the museum. It was unbelievable in terms of Cardiff, and then the events, the soft-power benefits that we had off the back of it, the people that were able to come in and engage around it, the VIPs, et cetera, fantastic visitor numbers. That was one painting. Imagine, if we had a whole programme at that level with Ireland, what it could do and what it could open up.

I must say, having been to both, the visitor experience at the national museum in Cardiff is significantly better than the Musée d'Orsay. I think that's a really useful, tangible recommendation for us to make. Thank you.

Diolch, Lee. Jane, was there anything further that you had hoped to bring up this morning that hasn't come up in the question areas?

I'm delighted to have mentioned bristleworms. I hope that that might be their first appearance at this—

You caught our attention. I am obsessed with wanting to see a picture of one now.

There are all sorts, and we've got some of the greatest experts in the UK, if not Europe, around bristleworms. But the one thing that I was hoping to say is that I think one thing we could do more of is create the spaces for people to come together—so, having conferences, workshops, study opportunities, literally creating the moment and the space where we can learn from one another. At the moment, because there isn't funding, that kind of stuff hasn't been happening. I had half a day with my counterpart in the National Museum of Ireland, and I came back buzzing with opportunity and ideas. Imagine if we could bring teams together in the same space to talk about those big opportunities that I was just describing. So, sometimes it just starts with a little bit of money to create a moment and a space where people can talk and connect.

Thank you ever so much. Well—

Chair, I just—

Oh, yes, Mick, forgive me.

Are they Welsh bristleworms or Irish bristleworms, or has that not been determined yet?

Shall we claim them?

They're all part of the same sea.

That's a very diplomatic answer.

Thank you very much. Thank you for the evidence, it has been very useful.

There were good challenges for us, and, again, some notes of hope to end on as well.

A transcript of what's been said will be sent to you for you to check that it's an accurate record. But could I thank you once again for the evidence? It's been very useful. Thank you very much.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Thank you very much.

Thank you. Members, we'll take a short break, and the next session will start at 11:50. Thank you very much again, Jane.

Good morning and welcome back. We move straight on to item 4. We're still looking at the relationship between Wales and Ireland around culture, language and heritage. We will now be taking evidence from Siân Lewis and Mícheál Ó Foighil. I'll go to Siân first of all to introduce herself for the record.

Hello, good morning. I'm Siân Lewis, chief executive of the Urdd. I'm here on behalf of the Urdd, but Ceren Roberts usually reports on the international work. She is out in Japan since Monday, so I'm here on her behalf. I'll do my best to answer your questions as well as I can.

Thank you very much. That's a fair enough excuse, that she's in Japan.

And Mícheál, if you could introduce yourself, please, for the record.

Dia daoibh. Helo, sut wyt ti? Mícheál Ó Foighil is my name. I'm the chief executive officer of Coláiste Lurgan here in Indreabhán. We're looking back with pride on the amazing projects. I've lost count of how many we've completed with our partners in the Urdd over the past four or five years, and looking forward to many more.

You're both very welcome. I'll go straight into questions if that's okay with you. Both your organisations have given us evidence in the past in relation to the relationship between Wales and Ireland, whether that is in relation to Brexit or more broadly. Could you talk us through, please, your recent work when it comes to the Wales-Ireland relations? I'll go to Siân first.

As Mícheál has mentioned, we started this partnership back in 2021. It has been a very successful partnership from the very outset. And the aim, quite simply, as you saw in the video, was to create joint productions of contemporary music in both Welsh and Irish. Since its establishment, there have been six exchange projects. But since 2023, there have been two exchange projects that have gone from Wales to Ireland and two from Ireland that have returned to Wales. Glan-llyn has been a setting for those exchanges, and 1,023 young people have been involved in this.

I think it's important that we reinforce the message not only in terms of how successful the project has been, but how important it is to develop national pride among young people, to raise the status of minority languages in these social settings. Producing Welsh and Irish videos and putting them on YouTube is unique, and it's been possible through Government support that's allowed us to do that. But also, it brings speakers of minority languages together. And again, those opportunities have been quite unique in the past.

It's good practice. There aren't many languages or nations across the world that bring young people together to create these opportunities. It promotes the Welsh language and the Irish language on an international platform. It develops cross-border and international friendships. And we're looking forward, as is Mícheál, to expanding these projects.

Alongside the work with TG Lurgan, there are two initial projects that we have been working on this year, specifically. The first programme is the Talent Cymru-Iwerddon programme, where we've learned from the good practice of TG Lurgan and we've brought young musicians together to create music together, folk music on this occasion. They have that opportunity to perform. They performed in Cardigan recently and they returned from Dingle just last week. Again, that's bringing young people together and giving them that platform to perform.

Beyond that, we've established a new partnership between Theatr Ieuenctid yr Urdd, which is funded by the Welsh Government, and Crooked House in Kildare, which is a youth theatre in Ireland. Through Taith funding, we took them out to Catalonia over the summer to work with the youth theatre there—Crooked House in Ireland and Theatr Ieuenctid yr Urdd—to create a joint theatre production on minority languages. That is a partnership that we're eager to develop further, and I can tell you a little more about that later on.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Mícheál, is there anything that you would like to add to this, please? We'd be very interested to hear from you.

I suppose the most profound influence I see from these workshops, this connection or this collaboration is that you can see it in how it influences the young people. I've been working with young people here in Ireland for quite a number of years, bringing them on courses. I suppose one big difference between the Urdd and Lurgan would be, I suppose, that we deal mostly with those who are trying to acquire the language. We look enviously on our Welsh counterparts where they already have acquired the language. It's not a language-learning kind of situation or objective.

But learning, acquisition, using, it's a tight space. Once you're creating, once you're using, once you're enjoying, once you're reaching out, especially to peers, the people of same age group, I know how powerful it is, because I know how well it works. We're fortunate. Even though, at the moment, Lurgan's medium-term objective—. Gabh mo leithscéal. I'm a bit under the weather at the moment.

We've a fairly major redevelopment programme under way at the moment. It's going to be a fairly substantial one, where we're going to end up, hopefully, in three years' time, with a state-of-the-art creative space. Even though it's going to be state owned, it really is driven by Lurgan. Especially the creative aspects have been driven by Lurgan. They're quite ambitious. But it will create this multi-function, immersive, audiovisual very expansive space using the latest technology in acoustics and the sound system and all that's going on. It's state of the art. All of this vision or this ambition has all arisen from the energy that young people supply. All you need to do for young people—. We regard ourselves as being kind of just facilitators, creating the space, giving the opportunities, and after that it's just facilitating and allowing young people more or less to create.

This has actually arisen from—. I suppose we're going back almost 20 years now of creating, as Siân said there. It's contemporary music, yes. Some of the traditionalists don't like it so much, but, you know, it's what students want to create themselves. Last August, we had an amazing four days with the Irish congregation here in Lurgan. There are two outstanding—I'd say our two best yet—projects. They're still in the editing suite. People say they'll finish this, that and the other, but we are a tiny organisation. During the summer, we'd have 150 people working full-time for us; the rest of the year it's only me. We're not state run, but we co-operate with the state. And another point I'd like to make is that all that Lurgan puts into it comes from Lurgan's funds. Our funds come 100 per cent from parents that pay fees to send their students to Lurgan.

But the parallel is huge, the aspirations are the same. You can see us talking. And I love chatting with the young people from Wales, because they're interchangeable with the young people that we meet coming on our courses. They're really positive, really kind, really engaging. You can see that the language barrier is a bit of a—. Yes, it is. We're supporting Gaeilge. I suppose it would be the same with Cymraeg. But I suppose there is a bit of a challenge in that there is a bit of a language barrier when we want to actually communicate straight away, directly.

But we had two teachers over—Iestyn Jones from Cardiff and Paul from Anglesey. They actually partook in our course last year, and they were part of our teaching staff. What they did is they introduced a Cymraeg module over the 10 preceding days before the contingent from the Urdd actually arrived, and that was hugely, hugely successful. It did deepen the whole idea of it being a language exchange, more so than in previous years, when this didn't happen. So, yes, I would say we would fully intend to maybe have two more teachers from Wales to prepare the ground for when the Urdd contingent arrives so that they would have quite a number of essential basics, because you don't need a huge amount to interact.

Thank you ever so much.

We'll go to Mick for the next questions.

Just a couple of short general questions that follow on from that. I suppose, basically, if you could outline what you see as being the one or two most important issues and challenges that you're facing, and the obstacles, I suppose, to both of you in terms of your work and the relationships developed, and perhaps add on to that, to deal with this as one item, the issue of Brexit and whether you see any particular developments there or issues there or opportunities there that may impact on what you're able to do in the future.

I'll answer first.

Okay, great.

When we're talking about problems or talking about the sector, the truth is that the Urdd perhaps doesn't fall into the artistic sector in its entirety. We have eight service portfolios within our services, in different sectors: sports, residential centres, apprenticeships, youth, volunteering, open-air activities, international and the arts. So, it's part of our work; it's an important part, the international work and the work on the arts, but there are other things going on too.

I think perhaps as well—I know I've discussed this before with Heledd and a number of Ministers and officials—perhaps giving you the Urdd's financial context will help you to see where the problems are. The Urdd has a turnover of £20 million now, and 26 per cent of that comes from the public purse, and 11 per cent of that 26 per cent comes from the Welsh Government, which is around £2.7 million, and 1 per cent of that £2.7 million goes to the Wales-Ireland project, which is £27,000. So, when we're talking about international collaboration and joint working on the arts, this is a small project. It's an important project, and we can reflect that, but it is a small project within the larger context.

So, in terms of challenges and problems, we certainly aren't facing financial pressures. That isn't relevant to this piece of work, and we can ensure that we work within our budget. But I also think that we don't have problems in the context of the project. We work very effectively with Welsh Government officials here in Wales, and also in Ireland. We also work effectively with our partners, like Wales Arts International, and a number of other partners as well. So, that gives you a little bit of the context in terms of our extent and scale compared to perhaps some of the other partners that are giving evidence today.

In terms of Brexit, the Urdd's international vision came back in in 2019. The Urdd was active internationally at its inception 100 years ago, when Sir Ifan wanted to take people on voyages across Europe. We've restarted that international portfolio, it's important to note, because the Welsh Government has funded it. That's what made it possible. But that was at the end of 2019, and then Brexit came in and affected us a few months after that. So, the truth is that Brexit hasn't had an effect on our budgets in terms of an international aspect, because it's only recently that we've picked that portfolio up again.

Perhaps to give you more context as well, we haven't received international funding for our international tours and travelling. In terms of the Urdd as a whole, 2008 was the last time the Urdd received any European funding, and that was for the Llwybrau i'r Brig project, the youth work we did years ago. The Urdd hasn't been affected by Brexit in that sense, therefore.

We understand, obviously, that Erasmus discussions are going on. Those are important discussions. The feedback from the Urdd about the old Erasmus system was that it wasn't the easiest or most flexible scheme to facilitate. An example of that is, if you wanted to take young people abroad, you would have to put those young people's names in 15 months before the journey. And knowing that young people's journeys through education can vary so much in 15 months, that meant it was a big challenge for us as an organisation that doesn't directly deal with young people on a day-to-day basis like the education system does. There were challenges in relation to that. And, the same old story, Wales wasn't represented financially fairly enough in the Erasmus context before it happened, so it's important that we learn those lessons in moving on.

Thank you.

And Mícheál on this.

Problems? No, we don't have problems, I must admit. We don't have problems. We find it really easy to set up and to organise our workshops with the Urdd. It's not at all difficult, and we're really very much looking forward to next year's workshops already. I don't think we will be able to visit Cardiff as was planned. For the last two years, we weren't able to travel because we don't have a campus at the moment. We're currently building our second temporary campus for next summer. We're under extreme pressure to have it ready in time for next summer—there are camps, et cetera—just to make way for the new development that will open in 2028. But we find it very, very easy to organise, to co-ordinate with the Urdd. I know some of the personnel have changed over the years all right, but it all remains the same, so there's no difficulty in that regard whatsoever.

Thank you. Mick—

And, yes, that's—.

Forgive me. Mick, was there anything else you wanted to ask?

No, that concludes, thank you.

Great. Thank you very much. We'll move on to Heledd.

Thank you very much. If I could just return to the joint statement between Wales and Ireland, and if I could start with you, Siân, please, in your evidence to us, you told us that you haven't had direct input into forming that statement or drawing it up, and you note that you would be able to add value to the statement if you were included. In terms of the action plan, then, have you had any sort of response yet, or any offer to be part of that piece of work?

At the moment—. Well, we weren't part of the discussions and negotiations. We continue to have discussions with Welsh Government officials in Ireland, and we've had politicians over to see our work and our projects—Jeremy Miles and Eluned Morgan came out to two very different events.

It notes in the shared statement that there is an intention to partner with youth organisations, and I'm sure that they intend to refer to the work of the Urdd, and that that will dovetail with the Urdd's work. As it has been a strong partnership, I was surprised that we weren't named, because it is quite a unique project between young people in the statement. Now, in the previous statement the Urdd was named, and we were pleased to ensure that we were part of that.

I think that we would have expected to have been recognised for the work that we do, because, as I said, we are the tool that leads that collaboration between young people, particularly in terms of the good practice that we've demonstrated where other nations can learn from the work of the Urdd and TG Lurgan. So, I think there is an opportunity to ensure that we are part of that broader discussion as we move forward, hopefully, and we do want to be included in that.

I think it would have been an opportunity to name a number of partners. I'm a strong believer in 'in unity there is strength' and demonstrating the opportunities that can be developed between Wales and Ireland, and naming those partners provides more opportunities for those discussions to develop organically. There were 20 people who came over from Ireland the day before yesterday to visit the Urdd. There were a number of councillors from Dublin, and other partners. Now, they weren’t aware of us prior to that—it was Cardiff Council that made that contact with us. So, if were named in more prominent public statements, then they would have made that link directly. They learnt a great deal from what we had to offer, and we’ve, hopefully, been able to expand that discussion and see opportunities for us to work with them.

So, I think it’s important, perhaps, to look back at the good work that has happened where there is joint working by partners. If you’re talking of the Euros and the World Cup campaign, for example, there was a feeling of great unity among the partners that we were all working on a single project, sharing the same values, and I do think that perhaps that is a lesson to move this kind of collaboration forward, to get those partners meeting regularly together, sharing good practice, sharing our projects, and naming each other in those project, because there is a great deal happening in Wales beyond the work of the Urdd, and it’s an opportunity for us to sell that on the global stage.

Certainly, it seems strange, when you've achieved so much, that you haven't been recognised there, especially when some organisations have been listed there who haven't perhaps been taking action, but are hoping to do so in the future.

Perhaps I can turn to Mícheál now to ask, in terms of that Irish aspect, whether you had any input into the shared statement—or are you in a similar situation to Siân, and the Urdd?

Again, we’re a small organisation. We’re a tiny language school in Connemara. I suppose all or most of our dealings with politicians over the last—. And we’ve had quite a lot, but it has been all more or less focused on this huge development that I alluded to there earlier. So, we’re a bit confused, really, as to exactly what department this relationship actually comes under, whether it’s foreign affairs, whether it’s higher ed, whether it’s education, or whether it’s Gaeltacht. But there seems—.

But we’re not too worried about it, I must admit. We’re not doing this because some Government department more or less asked us to do it. We’re doing this because we see the huge, huge educational benefits. And people will say, 'What’s the educational benefit, for someone who cannot speak Gaeilge to get exposure to Cymraeg?' But it’s there. It just shows that we’re not—. The biggest challenge for Gaeilge is to normalise its use in an informal kind of interaction. That’s the huge challenge. People can learn in classrooms et cetera, but it’s to get beyond that, get beyond the classroom, get into the real world, to own it, to claim responsibility, to claim ownership of the language. That’s where the crossover is. That’s what happens, really. That’s what we set out to do during our courses during the summer. It’s kind of to—. It’s education to lead off the potential, because people are really interested in it.

But the fact that Gaeilge is not—. We always grew up thinking that that Gaeilge was just this one language at the extremity of Europe. So, it was quite profound to find out that we’re not. On my first visit to Wales about 20 years ago, I was dumbfounded at the extent of the usage of the language, especially in north Wales. And to know that you have, I suppose, your sister language—because that’s what they actually are—right there next door to you—you should know about it. When you’re studying English in the Netherlands, for example, the English department in the Netherlands have a Celtic languages department, or sub-department. It’s just to see the whole picture.

It’s not just one language—it’s not an island, it’s not there on its own. It’s just that this kind of interest—. And people are interested, all right, especially the young people that I’ve met from Wales, and their teachers, and the young people—they’re keenly interested in, 'Wow, do you know what, there is—we are not alone, we are not so different after all—another kind of close relation here, right next to our doorstep that we know nothing about'. If you look at this from an educational point of view, the goal should be, long term, for people to know, to realise, to see the full picture. When you just look at Gaeilge only, all you're seeing is part of the picture, and the same for Welsh. They're two sides of the same coin.

Thank you very much for that. Certainly, as to the partnership that you've built, there is strong evidence—we've heard Ministers frequently referring to the work that you've been doing. So, yes, it is surprising to us that, perhaps, it hasn't been recognised there. We heard earlier, in relation to the work that's been done, that partnership work between the United Kingdom Government and the Irish Government, Amgueddfa Cymru mentioning that they are currently applying for money, from the €6 million that's available. Have both your bodies been part of any discussions on that, or is there any possibility of you being part of any bid for funding through that fund?

Siân yn gyntaf.

As far as I know—. Sorry.

Sorry.

Sorry. We'll go to Siân first and then I promise we'll come back to you, Mícheál.

As far as I know, we haven't been involved in those conversations. It's important to note that conversations between the Welsh Government and the Urdd happen regularly. We have a very strong relationship with Ffion, David and Geraint in the international division here, but also with the workforce out in Ireland. But, in terms of any negotiations or discussions to expand our international work in Ireland, no, there have been no discussions beyond those that happen at the moment. We haven't succeeded in getting European funding for our projects in the past. It's been a challenge for us as an organisation to do that. We would welcome support in accessing those funds and any opportunity to have broader discussions on that.

Diolch. A Mícheál.

No. I don't know anything about it, no. We wouldn't be involved. We live hand-to-mouth, really, here. We know our income comes from parents' fees, and that's what we rely on mostly. As I said before, we are involved in a huge, huge development project already, and that is going to—. There is quite a substantial amount of funds being allocated to that, so we're delighted with that, but not that particular EU fund you alluded to.

Thank you very much. One of the things that is noted with the shared statement between Ireland and Wales is the work that will happen in terms of the Euros in 2028, because they're across these islands. Are you aware of any role that you're being encouraged to play? Because, obviously, in terms of the legacy, and young people and sports—and I'm thinking in particular, Siân, about the role of the Urdd with sports as well, beyond culture—is there any possibility here of closer collaboration between Wales and Ireland?

There's always that willingness to collaborate, so we're more than happy to do that. We do have a strong partnership—when the Euros and the world cup were taking place. We were involved with the world cup in Qatar, the Rugby World Cup in France, and the women's Euros recently. The legacy of the women's Euros was the very successful #FelMerch conference that was held around three weeks ago in Cardiff City Stadium—250 girls aged 16 and above came together from all parts of Wales—and they were empowered through sport, ensuring that that legacy continues to get young women into sport. So, certainly, we have the trademarks to do that work, and we have been a major partner of the Welsh Government in previous years. There have been no discussions between the Urdd and Government more broadly about anything that's happening at the moment.

Thank you very much.

Okay. Sorry, Mícheál, was there anything you wanted to add?

No, but just, look, when we're playing Wales, I don't think there's going to be too much co-operation, if we get drawn against Wales in any of the games, all right. But after that, they're my second favourite team.

That's on the record now. We'll hold you to it.

Yes. But what we have done quite successfully in the past, all right, especially with—. Ireland haven't happened to appear in too many finals over the last number of years, but we've had some very successful songs that students did during the course of Gaeilge. We had a really nice rugby one a number of years ago as well. We used to build a project around it and have kind of a support song as Gaeilge to back the team.

Thank you very much.

I don't think we can have one to back both teams. I don't think so. That would be pushing it a bit too far, I think. [Laughter.]

Thank you very much.

I've known people who have one parent from one nation and another parent from another and they have fashioned their own equivalent of a T-shirt with both. But it becomes very messy, so I respect your decision.

We'll go to Gareth.

Thank you, Chair. Good morning—well, good afternoon, everybody, I should say now. I was going to ask my first question about EU funding, but I think that's been addressed earlier on in the session with the evidence that the Urdd hasn't received funding from the EU since 2008, and thus is not being impacted by Brexit. So, my only question to both, really, is: what support from the Governments do you think is most critical to delivering the ambitions of the shared statements, and are there any areas you would look to specifically target within that?

We'll go to Siân first.

I would just like to recognise the important contribution of the Welsh officials in Ireland working with us, with the partnership there. Rachel and Ian are a great help to us on the other side of the phone and on Teams, from Ireland, with Ceren Roberts as our international officer. So, we're keen that that does continue. The work that they've done has been crucial in opening doors for us in terms of schools and colleges, and also to youth organisations in Ireland. We wouldn't have been able to do the work without that support, and we are very grateful for it.

I think, in terms of the shared statement, perhaps, as an organisation that represents young people and as an organisation that gives a voice to young people, and even within our governance boards, I think that perhaps the shared statement was a missed opportunity in terms of not including young people in drawing up the statement in order for us to be able to reflect, and that they could reflect, the aspirations of future generations. We're talking about the future and developing for the future.

We certainly, as the Urdd, have transformed our governance structures and, for 18 months, we have had young people on our national boards, making up 34 per cent of Urdd board membership. They're young people under 25. Their contribution is a professional one and their contribution is important, and they also have that wider understanding of where they want us to be as an organisation in five or 10 years. And I think it's a missed opportunity to not include them in this at this time.

Thank you, Siân. Mícheál.

I suppose we would very much like to continue with our workshops. They've been such a dynamic part of our summer programme over the last number of years and people really look forward to them quite a lot. And the support, you know, whatever support is necessary—. I'm not saying we receive a lot of support from the Irish Government just in that respect, but it doesn't cost all that much, it's quite easy to do and, as I said, as an educational benefit, I think it's more than worth while.

So, yes, what I'd like to see is to keep things very much alive over the next few years. And, again, I'll mention that, in 2028, this new centre that will be opened in Connemara will be built on these kinds of projects. These projects and this kind of input, and then the interest that's generated across the world, are the reason why it's going to be built. Once we're there, it's a game changer. It's a game changer, and we would very much like to be in a position to really develop further collaborations between—. The collabs between Éireann and Cymru, you know, I see them as being really natural ones. From a geography point of view, they are so near and the similarities are there, and the language is the common purpose, all right. So, yes, I would say our goal over the next two years, as we build our new place, would be to keep things going, the workshops proceeding. That's what I'd like, to have the workshops continue, and hopefully to have a really good look at things when the new centre gets built. It's going to be really, really exciting.

Thank you so much.

Diolch.

Thank you very much. Finally, we'll go to Lee.

I think we've covered a lot of this already. I just wanted a chance to sweep up, really, and look forward to the work of this committee in the next Senedd and what things you think we should be recommending to them that they look at, in terms of the Wales-Ireland relationship and any priorities you think that we should have.

We'll go to Mícheál first, Lee, on this one.

Sorry?

We'll come to you, firstly, on this one.

Sorry, Lee, I didn't get that. Sorry, Lee.

Okay, it was just to see what you think the committee in the future should focus on. What priorities would you recommend for the future relationship?

Well, look, far be it from me to tell people what to prioritise. All I know is what we prioritise all the time ourselves. We prioritise having the young person at the centre—how can you not support, but incentivise, to educate. We're all about education, so it's all about the people, the young people that are involved. So, the support, have that as your mainstay. Again, it's bringing people together. There's a lot of work involved. I know the amount of work involved in getting people together, whether it's over in Wales or here in Éireann, and the amount of work involved in compiling these absolutely fantastic workshops into two or three days. There's a huge, huge amount of work involved. But that's the energy that comes from the participants that make it such a special event, and you can see, as I said, we have two outstanding projects. One just finished the day before yesterday. We'll possibly have them up online in the new year. But it's really that—it's really just to keep your eye on the most important thing of all, and that is to support and incentivise the young people.

Okay. Thank you.

Thank you ever so much. Siân.

Just to say, I'm enjoying your podcast, Lee, by the way. But just go back to what the priorities are—

—for the future, we have three priorities, the first of which is to continue the very effective partnership with TG Lurgan. We are seeing the positive impact of that on an annual basis and we want it to continue. It's a partnership that's prospering and growing, and there's very successful collaboration.

The second priority is to enhance this initial partnership with the theatr ieuenctid, between the Urdd and Crooked House. I'd like to ensure that we could co-create a theatre production with them, and there are discussions about the possibility of starting that for the summer.

We do invite the TG Lurgan group to Wales, and it's important, with each of our international projects, that we invite people back to Wales. We have the Urdd Eisteddfod, which is an valuable and major platform for ensuring that people from Ireland can visit the event and participate. In the most recent years, we have been inviting groups of young people to the Urdd Eisteddfod. The Alabama gospel choir sang there, and here was a group from Catalonia and another from Brittany that visited recently. So, certainly we extend a hand of friendship by inviting people to come and use the eisteddfod as a platform, and also Gŵyl Triban as a platform.

So, the main objectives, I think, are to use the eisteddfod as a platform, to develop the youth theatre and the partnership there, and to continue with the current successful partnership.

This isn't for us, but it's for a future Government to ensure that the voice of young people is dovetailed into all of those strategic discussions. But those are our priorities.

That's very useful.

Diolch.

Okay. Thank you. Well, could I just check if any Members have any other questions to ask? I think the value of the work that you do jointly has come across very powerfully to us. So, thank you very much for everything that you do that you do, and thank you for the evidence this morning. A transcript of what's been said will be sent to you for you to check that it's an accurate record. But can I thank both of you once again, and your organisations, for everything that you do for future generations—thank you very much—and for our languages as well? So, thank you for that.

And, Members, we'll take a break for lunch, and we'll be back at 1.30 p.m. for our final session today. With that, thank you again to our witnesses for the powerful evidence this morning. Thank you.

Good afternoon and welcome back to everyone watching. We're moving on to panel four this afternoon. We're still looking at Wales-Ireland relations, and we're just about to hear from the National Library of Wales, and we're looking forward very much to the evidence. So, I'll ask our witnesses to introduce themselves for the record. I'll go to Rhodri first.

Thank you. Rhodri Llwyd Morgan, chief executive of the National Library of Wales.

It's wonderful to have you here. Maredudd.

Maredudd ap Huw, curator of manuscripts at the National Library of Wales.

Well, it's lovely to have both of you with us. We'll go straight into questions, if that's okay. The National Library of Wales has given evidence to our inquiries into the relationship between Wales and Ireland previously, and we have spoken to you as well about the consequences of Brexit. In terms of an update since then on your work relating to Ireland, could you give us a little snapshot, please, of where things are at the moment?

Of course. Well, in the previous report, we made reference in our evidence to the relationship in terms of legal deposit and, of course, that is a statutory relationship that is ongoing and relates to the national libraries of Scotland, Wales, the British Library, the Bodleian Library in Oxford, Cambridge and Trinity College Dublin, which is a member of the partnership because the Copyright Act 1911 came into force before the establishment of the Republic of Ireland, and therefore Trinity College Dublin has continued to be part of the legal deposit arrangements for these isles. So, there is close co-operation with Trinity College Dublin, and the library in particular. In that context, we share resources, share staff expertise when it comes to cataloguing materials. Of course, at the national library, we have as part of our charter, part of our core mission, an interest in collecting and sharing information, not only about Wales but also about the other Celtic nations too, and therefore our collections are substantial when it comes to reflecting on that relationship with Ireland and the history and culture of Ireland.

But I think the one thing I would add that is new since the last time that we provided evidence is the development of our direct relationship with the National Library of Ireland on the one hand, and it is a relationship that is developing a series of projects at the moment, and I'd be happy to expand on those. Also, we're developing a relationship with the National Archives of Ireland too, because our function, broadly speaking, as the largest archive of Wales—not a national archive as such, but we can certainly learn the extent of the work and the challenges and opportunities from a sister organisation such as the National Archives of Ireland. And we are certainly looking at the types of collecting that they do, the types of engagement that they do with the public, the regulatory work that they're responsible for, so that we too can learn how to work effectively within that kind of regime. So, those are the new relationships, perhaps, that are worth reflecting on. There are programmes that we are working on specifically under the banner of the year of the Normans, which is taking place during 2027, and I can expand on those too. So, those are the direct relationships that the library has.

That's very useful, to have that overview, so thank you very much. I'm sure there will be several subjects that we'll want to go into in more detail later, but we are grateful to you. Thank you very much. We'll go to Mick next, please.

I've got a couple of questions, but just to ask one thing that follows on from what you were saying there, you've inherited and you receive a lot of archives to do with politics, political events and so on, which are incredibly important for the future. Do you have a problem now that so many records are actually digital and then how those can actually get transferred over? Because it's one thing receiving a big box of papers, it's another thing now when, effectively, these things are digital and you have someone who passes on or whatever. Is there a concern about lots of archives being lost because of that, or is there a way of tackling it?

Certainly, we conduct sessions with Members of the Senedd at the start of the parliamentary term, appealing to the Members to retain materials in order to keep in mind the possibility of transferring that material to us for our Welsh political archive, which is part of the national library. And of course, there's a long tail of paper, but increasingly, that material is coming in in a digital format and that is sometimes in old computers or copies of hard disks and so on. They come in several formats. That is a challenge that we and archives and libraries around the world have all faced over this past period.

We put digital conservation very high up on our list of priorities. We have this new department in the library, since a reorganisation at the start of the year, that is looking specifically at care and conservation of collections. So, we've been able to put, within the funding envelope that we have, a greater emphasis on digital conservation. So, I think that we're in a fairly good position to be able to cope with that challenge. Would you like to add to that?

On the process of managing our records, whether they are records of institutions or individuals, the digital element is crucial to that process. We can't keep everything, but we must ensure that the most important materials are safeguarded, whether digital or on paper, and both streams are now being combined as part of the process of managing records—they are equally important.

Thank you. I think I probably went a bit off message with that.

It was still very interesting. I don't think that that is off message; it's interesting.

What would you challenge—? Just looking in terms of this particular aspect of our inquiry, as we look back and also try and identify things that have been changing recently—and particular challenges that are facing us and particularly for the coming Senedd—what are the main issues that you face now? How is this really affecting your current work? And what would you say are the biggest problems, biggest challenges, that are facing you?

And can I just add on then, rather than going into it as a separate thing, obviously, leaving the European Union had a big impact in terms of a lot of relationships and a lot of engagement and a lot of cross-border projects and so on? Are there any sort of updates, really, on the position you have in terms of challenges that arise from that and arise from the relations? You've already explained quite thoroughly the developing relationship with Ireland and so on. But are there any broader problems that are arising from, I suppose, our post-EU status?

Certainly, losing that opportunity in terms of European funding has been a blow. That is clear. Projects had happened in the library thanks to that funding from Europe, and that door isn't open to us any more. We have been welcomed into some other forums, which do not necessarily emanate from the European Union, but that are European in terms of their scope—a little bit broader perhaps than the European Union. So, the Conference of European National Librarians, we have joined that conference for the first time this year. The National Library of Scotland is also a member. I had the privilege of attending the conference in Edinburgh in June this year, and being in that room with all the national libraries from the rest of Europe was a privilege in itself, and it was educational for me to be able to understand the challenges and the co-operation in terms of the shared mission of each library.

So, there has been a loss of opportunity there. There is a new opportunity going on now in relation to Ireland, thanks to an agreement between the Taoiseach and Keir Starmer to work closer together. So, we are hoping to see programmes being agreed, programmes of co-operation between cultural institutions, and I'm sure other institutions too. But in particular in our case, we were in Dublin two weeks ago attending a meeting of cultural institutions of the UK and Ireland discussing collaboration, and we will be introducing programmes for consideration early in the new year. The Irish Government has committed €6 million from now until 2030. I'm not aware of any commitments from DCMS on this particular point, but as long as there is a national partner in the Republic of Ireland, then institutions from Wales will be eligible to be part of those projects. Perhaps you already heard this this morning, but the Arts Council of Wales, Wales Arts International and Amgueddfa Cymru and us, we went to that meeting together as team Wales, of course, batting hard and part of those constructive discussions. We are certainly going to put forward a bid as the national library jointly with the National Library of Ireland, the National Library of Scotland and the British Library, which will look at areas of interest to us, and hopefully more broadly too.

Thank you.

Great, thank you very much. We will go to Heledd.

Thank you very much. It's wonderful to hear that you did attend that meeting and that there is some hope. In looking at the agreement between Wales and Ireland, can I ask what role you played in that? Clearly you've been named, but how much discussion was there with you before that document was published?

I'm not aware of any input ahead of time, but I'm certainly very aware that there are expectations in terms of opportunities in the areas of heritage and culture and the Welsh language, and we have been working with the international office of the Welsh Government. We have a direct connection now with the Welsh Government's office in Dublin. That has come following discussion of our ideas—imaginative ideas, I hope—for the year of the Normans. So, we are part of the discussion now, I think, certainly.

But there had been no consultation as to whether you were happy to be named and so on, or—. I'm just trying to understand how you came to be named again, where other organisations haven't been. So, I assume that you weren't consulted, therefore.

I'm happy that we're there having the conversation.

Yes.

I'm not completely aware, perhaps, of the discussions that took place ahead of time to name some organisations and not others, but certainly in that international context, where there are networks and arrangements between national libraries, national archives and a number of memory institutions and heritage institutions, they are well used to working together, so we're ready to do what we can.

And in terms of, then, we've discussed this morning the action plan to go alongside the document, are you part of any conversations or discussions in order to plan how the fact that you are named is reflected in that action plan?

At the moment, not yet, but certainly we are very pleased to be part of the team that is involved in looking at the opportunities to work together, and there are several things that will happen independently of that document, I would imagine, but because of our interest in terms of the long history of our relationship with institutions in Ireland and the nature of our collections, which include so much Celtic material, then it's completely evident that we would want to be a partner.

Certainly, in terms of that. I think one of the challenges for our committee, and then future scrutiny committees, is to measure the success of statements like that one. So, obviously in terms of an action plan, the hope is that there will be specific steps that will set out what the commitment is required from the Welsh Government and the Irish Government in order to support that. Knowing that you work independently, would you like to have a role in terms of that action plan, so that you're involved in shaping what those KPIs are?

We would welcome that very much. I think, as a memory institution and cultural institution, we would also emphasise the role of legal deposits as part of that, but we are part of the data infrastructure and knowledge infrastructure, and knowledge security at the moment is an issue that is so important. We had an opportunity in Dublin two weeks ago to discuss very pleasant themes—engagement, reaching audiences—but also we had a session that was a little bit more serious about threats and how Britain and Ireland, and Wales as part of that, do have a shared responsibility to ensure the security of the information of the islands.

Thank you. One of the issues raised this morning by Amgueddfa Cymru was that they felt that they could contribute to more than one aspect, and perhaps that where you're named as organisations is too restricted or limited. She emphasised research—you've just mentioned security there—and education was another. Do you believe, as the action plan is developed, that there is a possibility of looking at the broader contributions that the partnership could create?

I would certainly agree and I would welcome the opportunity.

Thank you. Literary co-operation is no longer listed in the shared statement, as compared with the previous statement. Do you have any view on that and the possible impact that that could have on you as a national library?

I wasn't aware of that fact specifically. Literary connections are multifarious in our collections. The city of literature status for Aberystwyth, Ceredigion, now gives a platform and a golden opportunity for the national library and for other partners in Wales, in particular in Aberystwyth, Ceredigion, but also beyond that. Dublin is a city of literature, Edinburgh is a city of literature; Barcelona and Rio de Janeiro have been named too. But I think, particularly in terms of what we're talking about today, developing work with Dublin is an obvious opportunity.

Thank you for that.

If I could ask you briefly: is that a surprise to you? I accept the fact that you weren't aware before we mentioned it now, but given those crucially important relationships between these nations in terms of our literature and how important they are to so many different things, is it surprising for you that it isn't listed? What do you think the implications of that might be, because I can accept 100 per cent what you've said in terms of the work that's ongoing in any case, but in terms of the fact that it's not listed, is that a concern for you?

Well, it's a surprise, perhaps. I would go as far as that, because I know how important literature is in terms of Ireland, and celebrating—I'm thinking about the work of Seamus Heaney, and the nation's poets and novelists, of which, again, there are very many, who are celebrated and who are a very prominent part of the collections of the national library there. I have myself enjoyed the permanent exhibition about Seamus Heaney, which is excellent, and Yeats as well. They are great places to visit in terms of the buildings and they are very rich exhibitions, and we're in a position to be able to try and replicate that and do something similar.

I was wandering across St Stephen's Green and I went to Trinity College Dublin, and the Book of Kells exhibition there attracts 900,000 people a year. There's the red box there as well that includes that immersive experience, which is very, very contemporary technology, and it's very popular with the public, and again that presents the history of the city and of the country in a very accessible way. And again, I was inspired, certainly, by the visit there. So, the opportunities are great ones, I think.

Thank you very much for that. Maredudd, did you want to come in?

The challenge is telling the stories anew, isn't it? Our manuscripts, many of them, have been in our institutions for a century and more, but they are as fresh and as important now. When you think about the earliest appearance of Ireland in our Welsh literature, one of the most prominent is in 'Pedair Cainc y Mabinogi', an old story told time and time again, but it's a very fresh story and a story that still grips the imagination. And it's still on the A-level curriculum in Wales, as I learned very recently when I had a group of visitors, who were extremely enthusiastic, from a secondary school in Wales to see that original manuscript, and it was worth seeing their eyes as they looked at those manuscript pages. They'd read into the background, but, indeed, it's a story that's still so gripping: the Irish in Wales and the Welsh in Ireland, and we know what happened there. [Laughter.] I could expand on that if you're not aware.

A lot of blood, and horses especially. Heledd.

Thank you very much. Certainly, in terms of what you outlined there, in terms of the collections and objects that we have, obviously, there is enormous potential here in those. What do you think is needed in order to enable you to take advantage of these opportunities? Obviously, in previous scrutiny sessions, we have spoken about the staffing challenges, and the cuts are something that are well known by now. How much of a challenge is it for you to ensure that you have the resources? Certainly, you have the ideas and the collections, but how much of a challenge is it? And in terms of developments, such as you mentioned in Trinity College Dublin and how they were able to interpret—significant investment has gone into that. Do you think that we need to look at what's happening in Ireland in order to not only collaborate with them, but to learn from some of the things so that we can know what we can do differently here in Wales?

Well, the financial situation in Ireland is quite different to that in Wales. The nation has benefits of substantial income, thanks to the establishment of technological headquarters within the country, and that makes it quite a prosperous place. There's also been investment in infrastructure in terms of the national library and also the National Archives of Ireland. There are new stores and public spaces, too, for both institutions and they're being developed now. And we've been having discussions with both of the institutions, because of the need for us to plan for the long-term storage of the national collections—the lessons that we can learn from them, of course. There is a major project to renew the long room in the old library in Trinity College Dublin as well, and there are the elements of dealing with a historic building also provide us with lessons that we can readily learn as we try to refurbish, from time to time, our building in Aberystwyth.

But what is beneficial for us is to see, yes, the investment, and that is what would of course help us—not only to have investment to support us to develop those relationships and that collaboration, but also funding over a longer period, rather than year-on-year funding, which can be less flexible, I should say, and therefore there is pressure to use the money well within that 12-month period, which is less effective than if there were to be an arrangement over a period of years in place. And we are now thinking about the Norman exhibition, and that's for a period from autumn 2026 to the spring of 2027, and then a series of further activities that will follow on from that, which takes us beyond the threshold of one financial year.

We have discussed in principle a loan of a manuscript from Trinity College Dublin that was originally drawn up in Llanbadarn. There are three manuscripts from the Llanbadarn scriptorium that were created at the very time when the Normans first arrived in Wales at the end of the eleventh century. And if we get our way and are able to stage this exhibition of the three manuscripts—one from Cambridge, one from the British Library and one from Dublin—it'll be the first time in over a thousand years that those manuscripts have been together once again in Wales, just a mile down the road from Llanbadarn, and we're very excited.

The manuscript that I have seen in Dublin is in the style of these islands, that is it looks like a small version of the Book of Kells, and it's wonderful to see, and the others are similar too. It's an interesting story, because the Bishop of St Davids at the time, when William the Conqueror came on a visit specifically to St Davids in the year 1081—Sulien was the bishop there, the Bishop of St Davids. Sulien was from Llanbadarn. The sons of Sulien then ran the church in his absence and were responsible for the scriptorium.

You can feel the enthusiasm. [Laughter.] It's a great opportunity. This has never happened before, having these treasures coming back to Wales. You might remember a few years ago that we had an exhibition where we had the four books of Llyfr Coch Hergest together. Sometimes you have to borrow some things to combine them with elements that are already in our collections in order to tell the whole story of something.

This is a good opportunity. Yes, there's a European project happening—the year of the Normans—but we have our own take on the Norman story too. This is the indigenous culture of Wales and the countries of the west, isn't it, and this old idea that the sea between us and Ireland isn't a barrier, but a highway. I think that this exhibition is going to work on that element of the highway, that there are more connections between us than there are differences. And if this exhibition is going to show that, then I think there's something to be celebrated about that during the year of the Normans in the national library and in Wales. So, that's the challenge for us.

It's very difficult to scrutinise, because I just want to listen more—

It's fantastic. I had chills when you were talking about the manuscript—

But I think it does demonstrate the importance of getting some of these things into the action plan, I would argue, so that they are things that can be measured. So, certainly I think, in looking to the future now, clearly there are possibilities in place. We will be moving on to funding and resources in Gareth Davies's questions, but I just want to ask specifically in terms of staffing—how much of a challenge is it at the moment? Clearly, you have the expertise among your staff and so on in order to deliver this, but is it a challenge to be doing this, given that you have your day-to-day work here in Wales in terms of engagement and so on? How do you maintain that balance? Do you feel that there are more resources on Ireland's side to be doing this, or are they in a similar position in terms of trying to do this on top of their day-to-day activities?

Very simply, they're in a better situation than we are at the moment. The staffing situation is a challenge, and I would put the staffing situation amongst the top three challenges: the budget generally, then cyber, and then staffing. And we do ask a lot of our staff. We ask people to deliver work at a time when 200 members of staff are in the library, and there used to be 300 members of staff in the library 10 or 15 years ago. So, we have shrunk, and there are significant challenges from that.

So, one of the risks for staff is them overextending themselves. There are opportunities that arise, and it's very difficult to reject those opportunities. But we have to be very cautious as well, and we have to be responsible, at a time when we are going through difficult situations in the library, to try and ensure that that balance is there across all of the functions. Some are statutory, because of the legal deposit element, of course, and then some are ones where we have accepted that challenge, and we have adopted that challenge, of engaging more broadly, and we have accepted that and are enthusiastic over the fact that that is a responsibility. We do that, and I feel that we are on the front foot, but I feel a lack of depth sometimes. That's a situation that we're in very often. We have that expertise, perhaps, held by one person, and that is a risk in itself as well.

Thank you.

Thank you very much for that. We'll turn now to questions from Gareth Davies.

Thank you, Chair. Good afternoon, everyone. I want to touch on funding and resources. One of the most important messages we heard in our 2023 Wales-Ireland work was that need for funding to match ambition. Has the National Library of Wales been impacted by funding challenges, and what effect has this had on your work with Wales-Ireland?

Certainly, I'll make reference specifically to that 10.5 per cent cut that we and the culture sector experienced in 2023-24. Ten per cent of the workforce left following that. That has left gaps, and it's been quite a task to ensure that those gaps weren't ones that increased risk in a way that would be too damaging.

Without overstating the fact, I would refer to the destruction that's taken place within the British Library because of a reduction in resources, but also the failure to provide the crucial resources in those core areas, and that has destroyed their digital capabilities. Their website collapsed, their internal systems have broken down, and they have been broken down for over two years. That's difficult to believe. It's thanks to some collaboration between the legal deposit partners in supporting each other that digital materials in terms of legal deposits are now available online once again among the five partners, with the exception of the British Library.

So, funding and resources have proven to be a challenge, and I would welcome the ability either to bid or to see that funding line supporting our cultural organisations to pursue those international relations, because we can find incredible stories through international interaction.

The Welsh Women's peace petition—I'm sure you will have heard mention of that—is a document that we celebrated this year at NAFOW, the North American Festival of Wales in Ottawa, and there we highlighted the document that we call the 'Welsh Tract', which is a transcript of the land purchases of 300 families of Quakers back in the 1680s. These were people who had migrated to America because of Charles II coming back to the throne, and the persecution of the Quakers because of their religious beliefs, and families moved and bought land from William Penn himself, and his agents, and they established themselves there.

Think of that as a piece of evidence that enables you to reach out to the Welsh diaspora, who have their roots either in that period or in a later period, and feel that very real connection with Wales. We've called our strategy 'Connecting Wales and the World' because we can do that work for team Wales, if you like, in order to build a relationship between people and their history in all corners of the world.

That's a manuscript that we've now digitised, and it's on the library's website. So, it's one of those manuscripts that's been saved. The Americans had the opportunity twice to buy it because it's part of the heritage of the US, but it's now safely here in Wales because of that Welsh connection. But we are sharing it through that digital medium.

That's one of the frustrations, I think, as a curator who works in the library: we come across these excellent treasures on a day-to-day basis; we come across the amazing stories that are in them, but, gosh, it would be nice to be able to share more of this content with people. So, because resources are scarce, it's only a small proportion of our collections that we can digitise. We can't catalogue everything to the extent that we would like to because there just aren't enough resources to do that. So, we could be doing more.

In preparing for today, of course, I came across the fact that there are 35 Irish manuscripts in the national library. All of those arrived around 1916, and it's not a coincidence, is it, that date. So, there are Irish treasures—

It's quite coincidental.

Well, that's the date. It is a very particular date. When there was trouble going on in Ireland, where's the safe place? Wales, the national library—this new institution that has been set up in Aberystwyth. So, yes, there are treasures, and we could be making more of those if we had the resources available to do that.

Thanks for that. I'm a bit like Heledd, really, in that I could listen to your evidence for most of the afternoon. But my final question is just around what support from the Government you think is most critical to delivering the ambitions of the shared statement. Are there any areas you would specifically target? I can gather from the answer to the first question at the end there that it would be over resources to maybe digitise or make items of reference and manuscripts and things more publicly accessible. But, in your words, where would those priorities lie in that sense?

Priorities will be conservation of collections that are vulnerable or fragile—those collections that we want. Digitisation is part of conservation, of course; it's part of safeguarding materials for future generations, and it's important that we are able to upgrade our programme if possible. It is a programme that is now reliant to a great extent on project funding, which comes and then goes again, and then we have to bid time and time again, and that takes time.

We would like to see an element of investment in our capacity in terms of engagement too. The work that's happened thanks to lottery heritage fund investment in the broadcast archive has enabled the library to have a presence—clip corners—in 14 locations across Wales, which makes us feel we now have a means of being present within almost every community in Wales', because that is the key to allowing people in all parts of Wales to benefit from the library's collections. So, we would like to do that.

We're talking about the Norman exhibition, and we have to dampen slightly the excitement around that because there is a project that has resource demands there. If we arrange loans from our partner organisations, there's a cost attached to that, because those organisations have to carry out an assessment of the condition of the item, they may have to do some conservation work. Certainly, transport is a significant cost. We will be building an engagement programme, a programme of activities, educational activities, community activities, around that, in order to inspire the people of Wales in the way that we're inspired. And there's a cost attached to that too, and it's not always clear in which area that cost will fall, but supporting us with those opportunities as they arise would certainly be something that we would hope to see.

Thank you very much. We'll go to Lee, finally.

Just as an aside, I went to see the Portrait and Power exhibition last week, which I thought was world-class—it really was quite brilliant. And I'm also a big fan of the Cyfrinachau'r Llyfrgell series that S4C did with the library, which I think is an amazing showcase of what the library does. And I must say to Maredudd that I think he's the real star of it. So, there we are, there's my sycophancy out of the way.

On the question before us today, we just want some suggestions from you for what future focus the successor committee has in the next Senedd for Wales and Ireland. What are the priorities that you think we should be highlighting?

In relation to connections with Ireland, there are similar challenges for heritage and culture institutions, even though we aren't always cultural organisations as libraries, because the library's knowledge and information collection encompasses every kind of knowledge and information. So, we would ask, in the same way, as, I think, Amgueddfa Cymru did, to look at knowledge security, and the research infrastructure of Wales. I don't think that that is a discussion that's going on very publicly. Universities have their challenges, and they have different challenges and specialisms.

The national library provides an asset, thanks to the legal deposit facility of the UK, which is very valuable to the country. And we invest in developing our capacity in terms of artificial intelligence, in terms of the data foundry, which will provide all our collections in a more connected way, and make that available to research institutions. And Ireland shares those interests as well when it comes to big data, just as we do.

We would also like to see us being enabled to maintain that relationship, not just with the National Library of Ireland, but to develop that broader conversation with the National Archives of Ireland too. I don't want to suggest that there is some particular function that this committee has in terms of supporting that wish, but I think it's valuable for you as a committee to think in terms of, if Ireland has national archives, and there is a model there that could be worth looking at, in terms of keeping that public memory safe—.

Think back to 1922, when, during the civil war, the National Archives of Ireland were destroyed, and the entire written memory of the nation was lost during that period of time. There is a project going on now, where the National Archives of Ireland are part of that, alongside the National Archives in Kew and other organisations, to rebuild, virtually, in a digital sense, that memory, those records that were lost during that explosion. So, it does make you realise what can be lost if we don't prioritise the safeguarding and the security of that information.

Very briefly, one thing I'd like to expand upon is that we can build on much of the good work that we've been doing over previous years. There's been a musical project over recent years that we could build upon by developing a closer relationship with the Irish Traditional Music Archive. That's one example for you there. There's a lot of Irish material in the library in estate collections, estates such as Brogyntyn, Powis castle and so on. Well, there is a very excellent research centre at Bangor University that looks at estates as a resource, and they have a relationship with Maynooth University in Ireland already. They work side by side on what was happening in Ireland and what was happening in Wales. So, there is much that we could be building upon, rather than starting from scratch. So, that is something to look out for, I think.

Heledd wants to come in, I think.

Could I ask how much opportunity you get to discuss this with the Government in terms of the role that you can play? Because evidently you mentioned earlier, in terms of the shared statement, that you hadn't had those discussions in advance. Is this the kind of thing that you would now hope could happen as the next steps, because clearly, for us to be truly able to take advantage of the opportunities, one has to know what the potential is and to have some sort of strategy aligned with that? I just wanted to try and understand that.

In my own experience, during the past few months, I have seen that there's been a gear shift in terms of the way that we as a library can be involved in the conversation around international relations. As I've said, we have now established a direct relationship with Welsh Government offices in Ireland and in France, and that has assisted in the development of the conversation around the year of the Normans. The conversation with the Welsh Government office in Dublin has facilitated progress on the project that we hope to develop now with institutions not only on a Wales-Ireland basis, but across the UK and Ireland. So, it seems to be happening now, perhaps in a way that it wasn't previously, but we certainly welcome the opportunity.

Thank you for that.

Forgive me, Lee, did you want to come back in?

Can I just ask—? We heard from the chief exec of the museum that she thought that we should have ambition—and she gave the example of the exchange of the Bayeux tapestry—that we should have a grand vision of something we want to do in partnership with Ireland. Can you think of an example in your field? If you were to think big, what kind of exchange or what kind of initiative would that be?

Oh, that's a challenge.

The Llanbadarn manuscripts, I think, is probably the big project. You can't go any bigger than bringing those three treasures back to Aberystwyth, back to mid Wales, but also telling a story that is a national story, that's a Welsh story but that is even bigger than Wales. That's a story that combines Ireland and Wales, as they both face the Norman influence coming from the east. I think that's an important story to tell and it's one that we can only do by borrowing an element but then telling the story. So, I think that's an ambitious project in itself. I hope we manage to bring it off.

We often ask ourselves the question, 'What's the next broadcast archive?' Because it has changed the game for us. When we explain—. We still have to explain very often to people the extent of the Wales broadcast archive, and that it includes a century of all of the broadcasting from the main broadcasters, and that it is available to all, for everyone to be able to watch every minute and listen to every second of those broadcasts in several parts of the country. What is the next broadcast archive?

One of the things—I want to help Maredudd—is to hunt down manuscripts. This is more of a thing for us perhaps, and possibly more narrow in terms of its appeal, but it's 10 years since the discovery and purchase of the Boston manuscript, and the other manuscript of treasures that came to the library was a century before that—the Hendregadredd manuscript—so what else is out there? And this is a project that the Celtic nations should do jointly together, because very often, in catalogues, in ambiguous descriptions of the contents of libraries and a number of private collections, and so on, it's just 'Celtic' that's written there, and no-one's sure whether it's Irish, Scottish Gaelic, Welsh, and so on. And perhaps if we could have sponsored a team to go through the descriptions, to go and visit and assess whether there are treasures in other countries that could come back here—. After all, the Welsh women's peace petition has been able to come back here, so what's the next Welsh women's peace petition?

Yes, exactly.

Thank you.

Thank you. Heledd has a question.

Yes, just one question. We heard earlier from the museum in terms of the investment summit that they had wanted to be involved in that but didn't have the opportunity. Did you play any role in terms of the investment summit at all?

No.

Do you believe that there is scope in future, because one of the things we're discussing is how we can attract investment for these kinds of opportunities and so on? Is that something that you would like to see happen in future as an organisation, to see culture playing a prominent role, and our national institutions?

Yes, certainly, and certainly in terms of the cultural element, but also that element relating to knowledge and research infrastructure. Yesterday, I was in London with the heads of the legal deposit libraries, and there is frustration there too because of the loss of the electronic legal deposit service, which is invaluable as a source of data, research publications for the academic community, for the community in the fields of innovation as well. We, as national libraries, have to be part of the discussion about innovation, about big data, because they are key economic growth areas.

Thank you very much for that.

Thank you very much. I know that we have run out of time, but I would still like to ask if there is anything else that you wanted to mention or had hoped to mention this afternoon that hasn't been covered. Are there any final comments you'd like to make?

Maredudd, anything on your list?

Would you like a story?

I love stories.

Discoveries are always being made amidst the collections that have been in the national library for many years. A reader recently drew our attention to an item in the collection of Thomas Jones CH—Companion of Honour—who was a Cabinet Secretary in Downing Street to more than one Prime Minister. And in the midst of his personal papers, there is a draft of the Ireland treaty from 1921 that is signed by everyone who was involved in those negotiations. The draft is in the national library in Aberystwyth rather than in the National Archives in Kew. That is one of those stories that emerges when readers, users, come to the national library and go through the wealth of materials that we hold. Those stories emerge regularly, including excellent Irish stories, but also other stories that impact us as a nation. So, that's the kind of thing that we as staff hear on a day-to-day basis in Aberystwyth. We hope that we'll have an opportunity to share these stories further in the future. That's the aim.

Excellent. Was there anything else you wanted to say, Rhodri?

Well, I've seen these drafts, and it is a moment that sends a shiver down your spine, seeing the signatures of Michael Collins, Arthur Griffith, Winston Churchill, David Lloyd George and others on that final draft with handwriting everywhere, that then became the final text for the printers, for them to have those wet signatures on that document. But it's us who have the final draft.

That sent a shiver down my spine as the both of you were speaking. Well, truly, you have spoken about historical things, you've spoken about Yeats, Heaney and the Mabinogi—treasures. That's excellent. Could I just thank you truly for the evidence that you have provided? A transcript—and I'll say all the official things now. I was enjoying that so much, but now I have to say the official things. A transcript of what's been said will be sent to you for you to check that it's accurate. But we are truly grateful to you for everything that you've said. You have really enriched our understanding, so thank you very much to both of you. Thank you.

Diolch yn fawr. Diolch am y cyfle.

Aelodau, dŷn ni'n symud yn syth at eitem 6, ond rŷn ni'n ddiolchgar unwaith eto i Rhodri ac i Maredudd. Diolch yn fawr iawn i'r ddau ohonoch chi.

We are looking at papers to note now. We have several papers to note. Are you content for us to note those? Did anyone want to say anything on the record about these? No. You're content to note them? Great, content to note them.

Therefore, I move to item 7, and I propose under Standing Order 17.42(ix) to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting. Are you content for us to do that? Okay, we'll wait to hear that we're in private session.