Plenary

The next item will be questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care. The first question is to be answered by the Minister for Children and Social Care, and is to be asked by Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Support for unpaid carers is a key priority for this Government. This year we've provided £13 million in funding to support unpaid carers. In November we announced a further £15.75 million to extend the short breaks scheme and carers support fund for three more years, until March 2029.

Thank you very much for that answer. I've been in touch with carers and those representing them across my region, and the picture is a bleak one. They are exhausted, they feel isolated and they are burdened financially. There are more than 310,000 carers in Wales according to the last census. It is estimated that the real number is much, much higher. The care they collectively provide could cost over £10 billion, a staggering amount that is equal to our entire NHS budget. If we are to do the right thing by carers, more carers need to be identified, have their needs assessed and go on to receive the support that they're entitled to. To not address this risks condemning another generation of carers to ill health, poverty and desperation. How are you planning to address the status quo that fails so many carers? Have you considered better support for grass-roots carers forums that do well at providing support and advice, but often fold or struggle through the lack of backing? Diolch.

Diolch. Thank you for those supplementary questions, Peredur. The first thing I want to say is to absolutely acknowledge the value of unpaid carers in Wales. And I'm not just talking about the financial value to Wales, I'm talking about the value to the people that they care for. To those people, that is invaluable, and money is not really an issue. But we have an absolute obligation to support those people to be able to deliver the care that they need to deliver to their loved ones, to their friends, to their family and, at the same time, make sure that they're not struggling financially, and that they're also getting the care and the respite that they need.

You'll know that we've had many conversations in this Chamber before about the need for unpaid carers to receive their statutory entitlement to a carers assessment, and I'm very clear that that is a significant priority. We commissioned the Association of Directors of Social Services Cymru to undertake a review of the number of carers that were getting their carers' needs assessments. We did that just over a year ago, and we've allowed the ADSS to lead on the work that we're doing, through my ministerial advisory group on unpaid carers, to ensure that that becomes a more regular feature. So, there are lots of things involved in that. It is about raising awareness of who unpaid carers are, how they identify themselves, and then how they can identify themselves to authorities, and particularly to local authorities.

Local authorities have a statutory obligation to provide a carers' needs assessment, and once that needs assessment has been undertaken, then the need, in the whole, for that carer can be identified. That could be respite care, that could be financial support, and we can provide that. The local authority can provide statutory respite care; we can provide respite care and short breaks that supplement what the local authority can provide. So, in recognition of my desire to make sure that that happens more quickly than it is, because I'm as frustrated as anybody that it's not happening as consistently and as quickly as it should be, I'm now going to be writing directly to the leader of every local authority in Wales, to say that this has to be given a priority in the way that we deal with unpaid carers.

Hello, Minister. It's a bit of an up-close-and-personal question, but that's fine. As an unpaid carer myself, I know exactly how challenging it can be, and I take my hat off to all of those unpaid carers across Wales for the fantastic and unsung work that they do, day in, day out. Being an unpaid carer can indeed take its toll, with four in 10 saying that their mental health is indeed 'bad' or 'very bad', and 42 per cent saying their physical health has been harmed by their caring responsibilities. Yet, many people who are unpaid carers do not actually recognise themselves as carers, with research showing that nearly half of them take more than a year to identify as an unpaid carer, and a significant amount take more than five years. This lack of recognition can indeed act as a barrier to accessing vital support, which then puts further pressure on our unpaid carers.

An important step in unlocking support is supposed to be receiving a carers' needs assessment, which I know you mentioned in your answer just a second ago, and I'm really glad that you mentioned it. However, Carers Wales's 'State of Caring in Wales 2025' survey found that 75 per cent of carers had not had an assessment in the last 12 months, and those that did said that they have not received any support to date. Fifty-five per cent of carers who had a carers assessment said that they were given information or advice rather than actual physical support, and 12 per cent were still waiting to hear the outcome of the assessment. So, Minister, I'd like to know—and I did listen intently to your response to my colleague Peredur Owen Griffiths—how specifically, aside from writing to the leaders of the council, are you and the Welsh Government working to improve the uptake of assessments and ensure that those who are entitled to support actually receive it, rather than simply being offered information. And I appreciate what you mentioned about timelines, but I'd really like to know: what is your timeline going to be for the local councils you'll be writing to, so that they are actually able to push this forward and get some results quicker? Thank you so much.

Well, thank you, Natasha, for that. As I answered in my response to Peredur Owen Griffiths, raising awareness is a critical element of this, and we've been doing an awful lot of work around that, particularly for young carers, and we've been doing some awareness raising through TikTok and social media platforms, because quite often young carers in particular don't identify themselves as carers. They don't realise that, you know, getting mum's meds in the morning and cooking her breakfast and doing this, that and the other is actually a caring responsibility. So, raising awareness so that people actually understand that they are carers is the first thing, and we've been doing quite a lot of work on that.

Very specifically, again to build on what I said to Peredur, we did commission the Association of Directors of Social Services to identify what the barriers were to unpaid carers getting the assessments that they need. And we all understand the pressures that local authorities are under, but they have a statutory obligation, and carers themselves have a statutory right to the carers'' needs assessment. So, I'm very clear, and the ADSS review identified that as a primary area for improvement. So, I'm not going to stand here today and say that I think this is job done because we've identified this as an area. This is clearly a very significant and priority piece of work that we need to implement for unpaid carers, and that's why my direct approach to leaders of local authorities is to impress upon them the need for local authorities to be ensuring that they deliver their statutory obligation to carers that they identify, and that they give them the support they need.

Now, for some carers, the support they need is actually only advice. It's not anything more physical than that. It can be about advice on benefits. It could be about advice on getting support in other areas, and that can be dealt with fairly quickly. But a carers' needs assessment is the first thing that should be delivered, and the second thing that has to be delivered is what that carers' needs package actually says they should have. So, I don't think you will find any difference between us on this, Natasha. The challenge is making sure that we get that delivered in a timely fashion.

Minister, the health committee is doing work on unpaid carers at the moment, and some powerful evidence that we heard was from young carers, and obviously they have particular circumstances and particular needs. One of the major issues was the identification of those young carers, particularly by school staff in school, and also whether there was systematic training for the school workforce that helps them to understand the needs of young carers, to recognise that they may be young carers, and also to support them if they have those caring responsibilities. So, in terms of working with the local authorities and the local education authorities and schools, I wonder if you would be looking to spread good practice. We heard that Radyr Comprehensive School, for example, seemed to have very good practice within that school on those issues and generally, but maybe it's patchy and variable, and the good practice needs to be spread across Wales.

Thank you, John for that question. We see that in every aspect of our policy work, don't we, that we've got really good practice happening in certain areas and we need to upscale that practice and spread it across the country. What I would say on young carers, as I was just answering the question from Natasha, is that young carers are a very specific group. They're sometimes difficult to identify because they don't see themselves in that way. Where we can identify them, we do of course have a young carers ID card, and that young carers ID card should open all sorts of doors to support for them. And every local authority in Wales is signed up to that scheme, so any young person who is a young carer in Wales can have a young carers ID card, which should, as I said, open the door and provide the support they need, in schools and outside of schools, so in shops, in pharmacies, at the GP surgery, or whatever. And in schools, the kind of support that we're looking for is enabling a young carer to maybe have a little bit more time to submit their homework, if they can't get their homework done on time, and that sort of thing. And there is some really good practice—Radyr you've identified, but there are other examples of really good practice in the way that schools deal with unpaid carers. But I have discussed this with the Cabinet Secretary for Education and we're very keen to ensure that those good practices are embedded routinely across our schools and, where we can identify good practice, that we do upscale that and share that across the country.

I am extremely pleased that, through working in social partnership, we have been able finally to resolve this long-standing issue impacting around 6,000 of our lowest paid NHS workers. This was a priority for me, and the national agreement ensures that workers are paid correctly for the work they do, which is vital in supporting our NHS services.

Thank you very much for that response, Cabinet Secretary.

This agreement is a welcome and just recognition of the work, commitment and dedication of these vital healthcare workers. As you said, I believe, it benefits more than 6,000—predominantly women—workers, who have been supported through this process by their trade union, Unison. And I should declare for the record, as my register of interest says, that I am a proud member of Unison. But, Cabinet Secretary, can I ask: do you agree with me that this agreement demonstrates the difference that this Welsh Labour Government can make and is making to workers? That's fair work, not just in principle but in practice as well. And do you also agree that it shows how the Welsh way of social partnership working can get real results? Diolch.

Yes, I should declare the same interest as well. I do think it is the fruits of that social partnership approach that has enabled us to resolve this issue on a Wales-wide basis. There have been individual disputes in individual health boards, but I was keen that we were in a position where that was not happening and that we were able to resolve the matter on a Wales-wide basis. As the Member rightly says, this is largely about the experiences of low-paid women in the health service—not exclusively, but that is the largest part of this group of people who will be supported. The plan is that any worker impacted by the review should receive the payments they're owed by the end of July next year, in accordance with the national agreement, and I'm grateful to trade union colleagues for their patience, I guess, in allowing us the additional time to find a Wales-wide solution for this challenge between band 2 and band 3 workers. I should say as well that significant work was undertaken in partnership with the Cabinet Secretary for finance and his officials in finding a solution, which I'm pleased to say we have been able to reach.

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservatives' spokesperson, James Evans.

Cabinet Secretary, recent media reports have suggested that the chief executive officer of Velindre University NHS Trust was removed from the job after only a year in post after raising concerns about governance arrangements in the NHS Wales Shared Services Partnership and that the chair of the trust's term was also not extended past her four-year term, which is very unusual, and she also raised similar concerns regarding the NHS Wales Shared Services Partnership. Can you today outline, Cabinet Secretary, what you know about this matter, why the CEO was removed and why the previous chair's term was not extended?

Well, these, as the Member will appreciate, are matters of employment relationship as much as anything, and it wouldn't be appropriate for me to comment on those in that context. And those restrictions, and that approach, are in place to protect employees as much as anything else. I don't think it's appropriate to go into the detail of that, but I don't think the picture that the Member describes is the full picture.

Well, Cabinet Secretary, I think we do need to go into these issues, because the trust's annual report states, and I quote, that:

'Governance concerns have...been raised by the Trust in relation to Shared Services. The concerns are wide ranging and have been escalated'.

Given the alleged irregularities within the shared services partnership in respect of governance, and the sudden departure of the chief executive of Velindre NHS trust, reportedly because he began to investigate these issues, serious questions arise about what senior leaders and Ministers within the Welsh Government knew, and whether these problems are being kept out of sight, or individuals sidelined to avoid reputational damage for the Government. Can you therefore confirm today whether you, or any of your officials, have received correspondence or whistleblowing concerns relating to the governance issues and alleged criminality within the shared services partnership, or regarding the relationship between senior Welsh Government officials and senior colleagues in the partnership? And if so, will you publish the material in full, so that we can be assured that the Welsh Government has not engaged in any impropriety?

Well, the matters that the Member is putting in the Chamber come in two categories. One is the decision of the board, and the relationships in relation to the employment of the chief executive. That's one set of issues. He asks a broader set of questions in relation to the governance arrangements. There has been a discussion around the governance relationship, and work under way already to make sure that is strengthened in the best possible way. That is obviously important.

But, in relation to the departure of the chief executive, the Member will absolutely, I hope, understand why it's not appropriate for individual employment decisions to be commented upon by others who are not the decision makers in relation to that.

Cabinet Secretary, I asked you a simple question. I would like to know whether you, or any officials within the Welsh Government, have received any correspondence or whistleblowing concerns relating to the governance issues or alleged criminality within the shared services partnership, or the relationship between senior Welsh Government officials and senior colleagues within the partnership. It's a very simple question, Cabinet Secretary. It's a 'yes' or 'no' answer, and, if you could reply to that, I think we would very much like to know, because this is taxpayers' money being spent—huge amounts of taxpayers' money being spent—and we, here in this Chamber, deserve to know the answer.

The answer to the question is that there is correspondence and discussion in relation to the governance arrangements, and that has been ongoing. But that's a distinct question from the point that the Member put to me originally, which is in relation to the departure of the chief executive.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Diolch, Llywydd. The Cabinet Secretary has embarked on a commendable campaign to ensure transparency and greater accountability in the NHS. This move is to be welcomed. To this end, a review into governance arrangements of the NHS shared services was commissioned by former director general of health and social care Judith Paget in April, which was concluded in July. The Welsh Government has received and reviewed this report. Is the Cabinet Secretary willing to ensure its public release so that we can scrutinise its contents?

Part of the correspondence to which I've just referred in my previous answer relates to the work under way in relation to that governance. That is being considered at the moment, and it will be considered together with the trust. And, at the appropriate point, there will be a statement in relation to the outcome of that process.

Now, NHS shared services published their integrated medium-term plan earlier this year. However, I understand that all 12 of Wales's NHS CEOs have made it clear that they did not approve the plans. Furthermore, a PricewaterhouseCoopers review in the spring concluded that, as a result of governance issues with shared services, the ability of the trust to sign off the consolidated accounts and confirm that it has discharged its responsibilities to its employees is compromised. That is what it said.

As an aside, can the Cabinet Secretary explain why a department that sits within Velindre NHS trust, and is not a stand-alone body, is expected to produce an IMTP? But, more pertinently, does the Cabinet Secretary have confidence in the NHS shared services?

Yes, I do, and the reason that it's called upon to draw up a separate plan is because of the nature and the extent of its services and the extent to which the rest of the NHS depends upon that planning function being undertaken properly. So, the Member will understand that there is, as has been clear from the discussion today, a governance relationship between shared services and Velindre. Shared services is a much larger organisation, actually, than the Velindre trust itself. As a consequence of the scale and the reach of its activities into the NHS, it is appropriate for there to be a separate planning exercise undertaken in relation to its work.

The questioning today is around the governance of shared services within Velindre, and I've spoken at length about the need to improve the governance structures within our NHS. Governance is not necessarily the most exciting political subject, but essential nonetheless. It means that the correct rules are in place and that they are followed, leading to good or bad culture—things like the rules and regulations around signing purchasing orders, ensuring that clear oversight structures are in place, chains of command and answerability, and making sure that actions aren't taken that could lead to criminal liability, corporate manslaughter or gross negligence. In the most recent Velindre trust annual report, the then CEO noted, as we've heard earlier:

'Governance concerns have...been raised by the Trust in relation to Shared Services.'

Cabinet Secretary, is the Welsh Government aware of these concerns, and, if so, what actions has the Government taken?

The Member began his questions asking about a review of governance arrangements. As I mentioned in response to that, there is a review that has been undertaken that is being discussed with the trust. In light of his—. He made a perfectly appropriate question about transparency and openness. I've committed, at the appropriate time, when that conversation is concluded, to make a statement that will set out the conclusions of that discussion.

Investment must go hand in hand with reform and improved service delivery. The Welsh Government investment is having a direct impact to residents in Rhondda. Across the health board region, two-year waits have fallen by 75 per cent over the last year. The health board has delivered over 10,000 extra new out-patient appointments this year, and, with the south-east region, 4,000 additional cataract procedures.

I'd like to start by saying a huge 'thank you' to all the NHS staff in Rhondda for their dedication and hard work, especially during these challenging times. The £120 million investment announced in June is very welcome. It's vital that we continue to prioritise reducing waiting lists so that no-one has to experience unnecessary pain while waiting for procedures, whether for hips, cataracts or other essential treatments. I'm mindful of residents currently waiting for consultations or individual patient funding request decisions to determine whether their unlicensed medicines can be funded on the NHS. This wait can be extremely painful and extremely costly for the individuals. Can the Cabinet Secretary confirm that reducing waiting times will remain a priority, and will he please look closely at finding a more rapid process for those currently waiting and paying for their unlicensed medication?

Yes, I do want to see the excellent progress that we're seeing in reducing waiting times continue. In relation to the point that the Member makes in relation to IPFR cases and so on, I think it is important to make sure that we get timely approval. The policy currently requires that clinically urgent cases are considered within 48 hours of submission of an application. The most recent annual report indicates that all bar one of the 32 clinically urgent cases were reviewed within that 48-hour period. So, there is an existing mechanism that does enable us to expedite approval, and, generally speaking, that is currently working well. We recognise that the most effective way to ensure prompt access to treatment, where there is good clinical evidence, supports the off-label use of a medicine, and it can offer value for money for the NHS as well. So, those medicines are routinely available without requiring an IPFR submission. When a medicine is used off-label, outside the terms of its licence, some of the evidence of clinical and cost effectiveness won't be available. For those reasons, the IPFR process enables decisions on access to unlicensed medicines to be made on a case-by-case basis. But I'm grateful to the Member for raising that important point.

General practice is the busiest part of our NHS. Our skilled workforce keeps care close to home, meeting huge demand every day and ensuring patients get the help that they need. Earlier this year, over £52 million was allocated to strengthen community-based GP care across Wales, with ring-fenced funding helping practices manage demand and maintain access for patients.

A number of my constituents are explaining to me how difficult it is for them to get an appointment ahead of time with a GP, with a number of them referring to the bottleneck at 8 o'clock in the morning that the Government said they would eradicate four years ago. This is echoed by evidence that Llais submitted to the health committee earlier this year, evidence from the older people's commissioner, and evidence from Hywel Dda in terms of the patient surveys, which all mention this scramble at 8 o'clock in the morning. You referred to a review, Cabinet Secretary, into the access standards. Can you tell us when that review will be completed? In the meantime, do you have a figure for the percentage of GPs who do comply with the standard? Two years ago, you said that it was 95 per cent. Has it increased since then, or has it gone down?

The figure in terms of those that do comply with the standards, the latest figures we have, demonstrate that 97 per cent do. Practices decide for themselves as to whether they are reaching those objectives, and I didn't think that that was sufficient. So, as part of the review that you mentioned, there is a requirement for health boards to manage that data too. So, there will be further work done in the coming year, but that has been part of that review.

As a result of the review, further guidance has been issued to practices in order to ensure that they clearly understand that the contract doesn't allow that it's only possible to release appointments at 8 o'clock for that particular day. There are new responsibilities for health boards and practices to report on what is happening in order to tackle the pressure that's in the system in that regard. I think that's part of the solution, but only part of the solution.

What we also need to do, and work is ongoing to ensure that this happens, is to ensure that we can differentiate between urgent appointments and appointments where people perhaps have more time before they need to see a GP or an appropriate professional. Work is ongoing in order to ensure that we can pilot equal access to urgent primary provision on the one hand, but also, through things like the app, ensure that less urgent appointments, where you do not need clinical triage, can be secured online rather than having to phone the practice. So, there are a number of things happening to tackle this issue.

Cabinet Secretary, we all have this problem, don't we, in our constituencies, where people trying to access these appointments are having significant difficulties, particularly in the mornings and, of course, for those same-day appointments? They seem to actually be easier to get than advance appointments, in terms of trying to programme appointments in advance for check-ups and other things that are less urgent. One of the challenges that GPs tell me that they have is that, because of the extremely long waiting times for hospital treatment, they are now having to manage more people, and that's putting more pressure on appointments in the community. Can I ask you for an update, particularly in respect of north Wales? We know that the waiting-time figures are dodgy up there, but, given the extra pressures in north Wales because of those very long waiting times, what extra resources are you putting into those GP practices so that they can cope with the additional burden that that brings?

The point that the Member makes, I think, has some force, but it doesn't explain the entirety of the position. So, I think it is fair to say that, where people have been waiting longer, they're more likely to present to their GP for continued support. I think that that is a commonsense assumption. The evidence is a little variable, but it's a point that does have some strength clearly. I don't think that that's the entirety of the challenge. There are a range of issues that we need to be able to tackle, and on much of them I have responded to Adam Price in his question.

So, we are working with the health board to make sure that their overall performance, obviously, is improving as part of the escalation arrangements. I've made the point in relation to the data behind their waiting list performance, which I know the Member has a keen interest in, in the written statement that I made last week. And we're providing further support to the health board at their request, putting in an improvement director—a woman called Jane Farrell, who has previous extensive experience in the NHS in England. That will be about performance improvement overall, including in planned care, which the Member is referring to as part of his question, but also support in relation to emergency intensive care support, if I can put it like that. That's around how we support on an intensive basis an improvement in the performance of emergency departments in north Wales. But there are a range of things that we need to be doing. It isn't all about the consequence of the longer waits in north Wales. I hope that the answer I gave to Adam Price will have been helpful in his context as well.

General practice is the busiest part of the NHS. Our skilled workforce keeps care close to home, meeting huge demand every day and making sure that patients get the help they need. GPs in Hywel Dda deliver around 190,000 appointments a month—part of over 1.5 million delivered across Wales.

Diolch yn fawr, Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet. You'll be well aware that I've previously raised on the floor of this Chamber Argyle Medical Group and the surgery there, which has 22,000 registered patients, but only nine GPs. And I commend the work of the staff there on the front desk, the health professionals there as well, dealing with such a quantity of patients in a socially and economically deprived area. But what has really frustrated the community recently is the disbanding of the patient participation group. Now, I've raised this with you previously and, unfortunately, I was not satisfied with the answer, because it was felt that, even though it is not a requirement of surgeries to have a patient participation group, in better understanding the needs of the community and the delivery of GP services within that community, a patient participation group is a great vehicle for that. So, will you look again at whether you can ask GP practices, specifically Argyle Street, whether they can re-establish patient participation groups to keep that vital communication going to ensure that everybody is on the same page in trying to improve access to GP appointments?

Well, I do think the Member is absolutely correct to say that practices and health boards need to be engaging with patients in order to understand the expectations that patients have, of both primary and secondary care. And there's a relationship between the two, in the way that I responded to Darren Millar earlier, and actually looking at creative ways to do that, I think, is the most important expectation. So, I've been very clear in my expectations of health boards that they need to find new ways, creative ways, of engaging with patients over the longer term, not just in the context of service change, for example. And I would extend the same principle to primary care practitioners—that an ongoing dialogue with patient groups is an important part of making sure that patients feel heard, but also that practices have the information they need in order to design their services.

As a result of our reforms to date, over 101,000 new dental patients have received an appointment for a full course of treatment since the restart of contract reform in April 2022. A further 37,000 appointments for new patients to have urgent treatment have been delivered since April 2023.

I'd like to quote to you the experience of the Evans family, who've experienced the dental system in both north and south Wales. Mr Evans says, 'In Cardiff, we were registered with an NHS dentist and never experienced difficulty accessing care. We fully expected the same would be available in the north of our country. We were placed on the NHS dental waiting list and, after waiting for two and a half years, we contacted to practice, only to be told that the list had been scrapped entirely and it had moved to a new online portal, and we'd had no notification of that. We immediately registered on the portal, but months later we've still not heard anything. During this time, my wife was pregnant and entitled to NHS dental care, yet she was unable to access it locally, due to the situation. We're now attempting to register our newborn twins. However, the NHS dental portal appears to be broken. When attempting to add children to my account, the submit button doesn't function at all. It's simply an image, rather than an active button. So, there appears to be no alternative methods to register children for NHS dental care in north Wales. Access to NHS dentistry should not depend on living in the north or the south of Wales, nor should families be left without any pathway to register their children.' What do you have to say to Mr Evans and all those other families who are being failed by your Government's rotten record on dental services?

Well, I think the Member will acknowledge that there have been difficulties in parts of north Wales in relation to contract returns and so on, but there has also been a significant reinvestment over the course of the last year. The fundamental challenge to which his question points is one that I would accept, which is that we need to make sure that NHS dentistry is more readily provided and more readily available. The contract, which will be coming into effect from April next year, I'm confident will have a significant effect in making more NHS dentistry available in all parts of Wales and, importantly from his point of view, in north Wales. There have been very positive developments over the last year—new surgeries opening with NHS dentistry at their heart in different parts of north Wales.

I'm very concerned to hear of his constituents' experience in relation to the dental access portal in particular. It is an important part of how we can make sure access to dentistry is more convenient, not less convenient for people. So, I'll ask my officials to look into the point that he's raised today.

Local health boards are responsible for the planning and delivery of access to safe, quality healthcare services for their local population. We continue to support health boards to make improvements with additional finance, direct intervention and support from NHS Wales Performance and Improvement.

Thank you for your answer, health Secretary. Earlier this year, I wrote to you and raised in the Chamber the very real risk that many rural GP practices face, that they're not financially viable under the existing funding formula. Unfortunately, that risk has now materialised in north Powys. The Llanrhaeadr Medical Centre, which is a site of the Llanfyllin group practice, is vital for residents of the Tanat valley, and this centre is now at significant risk of closing due to funding constraints. The local county councillor for the area, Councillor Aled Davies, has pointed out that the group practice covers one of the largest geographical areas across Wales, across three different sites, providing medical services to near 12,000 people. Now, the closure of this practice or site would mean that many of our constituents will no longer live within a viable distance of a GP practice. Many, of course, are elderly and not able to travel large distances, and public transport is, of course, extremely poor. So can I ask, health Secretary, why does the current funding formula still fail to take sufficient account of the higher costs and complexities of running a rural practice across multiple sites, like Llanfyllin, and what immediate action will you take, working with Powys health board, to restore the funding necessary to prevent this site from closing and other rural sites that are also in the same position across Wales?

The Member may have had the opportunity to see the public accountability meeting, which I held with Powys Teaching Health Board last week, in which, unsurprisingly, the importance of primary care was very, very central to the discussion that we were having. And some of the challenges, some of them he's alluding to in his question, were discussed in more general terms than the specific example that he's giving in that discussion.

The Government makes a number of interventions in order to support rural practices, mindful of the dependence that local residents will have on them, including support, which benefits parts of Powys, to encourage GPs to work in more rural areas where, perhaps, in the past recruitment has been particularly challenging.

On the question of the formula more broadly, I expect to make a statement reasonably shortly in relation to where we are with GP negotiations, and I hope that will be able to address some of the points that the Member has made.

We have been clear with the health board about their need to improve the culture and leadership, particularly addressing concerns raised in the recent internal reviews and the letter from consultants to which the Member is referring. The chief medical officer and the chief nursing officer have been leading a programme of work to strengthen clinical leadership in NHS Wales, and this includes developing an operating model for clinically led service improvement and transformation.

A 77-year-old emphysema patient shivering after heating failure, and an 18-year-old in his final hours—his final hours—wet from the dripping ceiling of a pigeon-infested tunnel, and a despairing staff member who says working at Wales's biggest hospital has become an absolute nightmare. Health Secretary, I have stood here on numerous occasions highlighting the failures at the University Hospital of Wales and I haven't seen any action to address the concerns that I've been raising, from the threatened withdrawal of the licensing of the mortuary facilities at UHW to the appalling state of the theatres at UHW, and now that direct quote from patients and staff in the Western Mail yesterday, which I might commend as one of the few media sources to highlight the appalling state at Wales's largest hospital. You need to get a grip, Cabinet Secretary, and get into that health board and sort it out before more patients have to suffer what I just read out, and their relatives despair at the way they are being treated at Wales's largest hospital, and staff feel demoralised. So, will you commit to dealing with the issues at UHW and making sure that you come back within a month and give a detailed statement of the key actions you are taking to address those concerns and rectify the problems at UHW?

I read the comments that the Member quoted today in the press yesterday, and they are shocking comments. I absolutely acknowledge that, and that absolutely should not be any patient's experience. I have been extremely clear about my expectations. The Member will be very well aware that I raised these matters with the health board in the public accountability session of a few weeks ago. He will also be aware that the health board has addressed their comments and the actions they are taking and I expect them to take in response to the letter that I raised with them at that session. They are in escalation specifically because of a range of concerns that the Member will also be aware of.

In relation to the question of estates specifically, which he refers to in his statement, the health board is currently developing a plan for the future of both the UHW and Llandough sites. When that plan is being concluded, we will work with them on options and timelines. There is a clear acknowledgement that the condition of the estate at the University Hospital of Wales is not adequate. We have allocated funding as a Government to support comprehensive survey work to inform that plan, and that will provide a clear understanding of the risks and what investment priorities need to come on the back of those to address them.

We have provided the health board with discretionary capital of £17 million this financial year and there's additional targeted estates funding that they have received in order to address a range of other challenges across their estate. As he knows, capital investment has been very, very, very constrained for a very long period of time. I don't wish to make a party political point in the context of the serious point that he is raising, but that is inescapably the context for some of the estate challenges that the health board is facing. I do not use that to excuse the culture challenges that the consultants were raising in their letter; those must be addressed regardless. But the points I have made today show that we are, within those financial constraints, aiming to get to grips with that set of challenges. Nobody should have the experience that the gentleman quoted by the Member has had.

There's clearly a failure of governance here by the board, because one of the things that the clinicians are complaining about is the invisibility of the leadership and their failure to respond to their perfectly appropriate concerns. My question to you, really, is what resources is the Welsh Government making available to the new chair of the health board, in whom I have every confidence, but is facing a perfect storm of problems. I have particular concerns about the management of the estates and the use of resources to resolve what is a very difficult building to maintain.

Well, I have full confidence in the chair of the board as well. In my discussions with her, she clearly understands the challenges that need to be addressed. A number of the broader points that the Member made in relation to clinical engagement and executive visibility in different sites around the health board's area are addressed specifically in the health board's response to the letter from the consultants. There's a wide range of points that the consultants make, and they're addressed in that letter. I've been very clear with the health board, and I was clear in the most public meeting with them, that I expect those challenges to be engaged with, but I also expect clinicians to engage in a process of resolving together these challenges. There is an opportunity, I think, with a mature relationship between the executive team and the clinical leadership of the health board, to be able to make a significant improvement in this space. I do think that she's right to say that this is a challenge for the board to get to grips with, and I'm confident that the chair of the board will be doing that.

Finally, question 9. Julie Morgan.

Thank you very much for the question. As you know, earlier on this year, we produced the mental health and well-being strategy. This is to ensure that Wales becomes the first nation in the world to have a stepped care, open-access model, and men's health is going to be absolutely crucial to this. That's why we're working very closely with people with lived experiences in our communities to ensure that their voices are heard.

Thank you for that response.

I'm very supportive of the Men's Sheds movement. I've seen first-hand at the Lisvane Men's Shed the great job they do in helping men's health. But they have contacted me and they say that they feel that there's not enough about men's health in the strategy and wondered if the Government could look at the strategy and see if there's something that could be put in specifically to address men's health. Obviously, we know all the issues related to men's health. In particular, in Wales, we do have a high suicide rate amongst men. So, I wondered if you could look at whether there's anything that could be done to address men's health more directly in the strategy.

Thank you very much for that follow-up question. I just want to also take this opportunity to say how wonderful I think that Men's Sheds is, and Men's Sheds Cymru. I recently went to visit the Ogmore branch with Huw Irranca-Davies because we had a delegation from Japan, because Japan are now going to copy the model, and there are going to be the first Men's Sheds in Japan, which I think is fantastic. Also, in Pencoed, I went out with the newly formed Men's Sheds there last week, and we were clearing public walkways. There's just so much that they do across Wales, and I'm very grateful.

I also wanted to say that the ambition for the strategy, as I said, is that we're going to be the first nation with our single-session model. Open access is particularly key to this, and we know this from men and listening to men, that when they ask for help and they're in the space where they have come to that part where they can actually go and ask for that help, it's really important that they get it. We can also see this through the national '111 press 2' service that we have, because since it's been started, 200,000 calls have been received and 40 per cent of them have been from men. So, open access is obviously a format that men respond to, and we need to build upon that.

You mentioned men's health in the context of the suicide rate at the moment, which is very worrying. You will know that the UK Government are in the process of looking at doing a men's health strategy in that context. I'm watching keenly and reading through the evaluation and the information that's coming through, so that we can better understand the needs of men. I think, actually, that there's been this narrative that men don't always reach out for help. However, some of what's coming through in the evaluation suggests that maybe we just don't always recognise the way that they ask. So, it's even more important, as we go forward, that we have that input from men to ensure that those services are there when they need them.

There will be a key role for the third sector in the mental health and well-being strategy, a 10-year strategy, but with a three-year delivery strategy to begin with. Many factors, as we know, can impact mental health, and that includes the cost of living, relationships and work, so we really are working across Government. I would be more than happy to have a meeting with Men's Sheds Cymru to ensure that they feel that they're being engaged in this process; they are absolutely crucial. The third sector is crucial to a stepped care model and also to our—oh, my brain—social prescribing framework, as well, which we're currently working on. Men's Sheds are really key to that. So, yes, of course, I will do everything that I can to reinforce everything that I have said today and make sure that that is shared with our stakeholders. Diolch.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary and Ministers.

Point of order from Heledd Fychan.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I do wish to raise a point of order. Earlier this afternoon, the Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership drew attention to the fact that I was not present to speak during a statement that he made on 19 November 2024, giving the impression that I was negligent of my scrutiny responsibilities. For clarity and for the record, and as agreed by the Senedd's Business Committee, I was in Brussels with the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport and International Relations Committee, and the statement was ably scrutinised on behalf of Plaid Cymru by Llyr Gruffydd. I do regret that the Minister does not follow the work of the committee that scrutinises his portfolio.

Thank you for putting that on the record.

There are no topical questions today.

So, we move on to item 4, the 90-second statements, and the first is from Elin Jones.

Exactly 70 years ago this evening, in December 1955, in a meeting of the NFU's county committee in Carmarthenshire, 12 farmers stayed behind at the end of the meeting to establish an independent union for Wales's farmers. My Uncle Jac was one of the 12. They proceeded to establish the FUW the length and breadth of Wales, in the face of a good deal of opposition and anger. 'We'll smash you in three months', some said, while others compared them to the Mau Mau rebellion in Kenya.

And what inspired the act of establishing an independent union? Well, the feeling was that the NFU at that time ignored the needs of Wales in its decisions that were taken in London. In Carmarthenshire in particular, the main driver was the Government and the Forestry Commission's intention regarding compulsory afforestation of 20,000 acres of agricultural land in the Rhandirmwyn area.

Ivor Davies became the union's first chair. My Uncle Jac, J.B. Evans, a Conservative by the way, was the union's first general secretary. The Labour stalwart, John Morris, became deputy general secretary, and he, as Secretary of State in the 1970s, delivered formal recognition for the FUW in negotiations with Government from then on.

For 70 years, therefore, the Farmers Union of Wales has represented and fought for the future of agriculture. Ownership over agriculture in Wales remains mainly in the hands of the family farm, thereby safeguarding our rural communities and environment, whilst also ensuring a resilient food chain. A large part of the thanks for this is due to the vision of those 12 farmers in Carmarthenshire, exactly 70 years ago this evening, in establishing the Farmers Union of Wales. In unity, there is strength.

I'd like to pay tribute to Menter Iaith Caerffili, which is celebrating 25 years of inspiring the use of the Welsh language beyond the classroom. For a quarter of a century, under the exceptional leadership of the chief officer, Lowri Jones, they've been at the heart of efforts to strengthen our language in the county through childcare schemes, school holiday activities, and community events such as Ffiliffest. Their dedication shows what's possible when communities work together, and demonstrates what can happen when inspiration meets dedication.

As we look forward to seeing the language continuing to grow, success stories like these remind us how far we have already come. The days when the authorities were openly hostile to the promotion of the Welsh language are long gone. The establishment of Welsh-medium schools to meet the demand from parents was not always easy. Plaid Cymru mainstays like Phil Bevan remember the struggle to ensure Welsh education provision for children in the county.

Today, Welsh-medium education is flourishing, and that is hugely encouraging. We have more to do to reach the aim of a million Welsh speakers, but with enthusiastic organisations like Menter Iaith Caerffili and with clear political will, it is an entirely credible target. Huge congratulations to Menter Iaith Caerffili. I enjoyed the celebrations in Blackwood last Thursday, and I look forward to seeing their invaluable work continuing for years to come. Happy birthday.

Gwaelod-y-garth is a quiet and semi-rural village on the outskirts of Cardiff. Today, it's hard to believe that it was an industrial village for centuries, up until the beginning of the twentieth century. This Friday, the village's residents will be marking 150 years since the Llan colliery disaster, when 16 men lost their lives—the only mining disaster, as far as I'm aware, within Cardiff's current boundaries. Councillor Rhys Livesey will recite the names of the 16 victims, and Ysgol Gynradd Gwaelod y Garth will contribute items too, which is only appropriate, bearing in mind that four children lost their lives in the disaster, with the youngest only 12 years of age. It's also important to remember those families who were evicted from their homes as they were no longer able to afford to pay the rent, having lost their husbands and sons.

The disaster led to a change in the law, and I'm sure that that has saved the lives of hundreds, if not thousands, of people. It's possible that all of this would have been forgotten were it not for the dedicated efforts of Norma Procter and other enthusiastic volunteers who ensured that there was a permanent memorial to mark the colliery and the disaster, and that was unveiled by Rhodri Morgan back in 2012.

I will finish with the words engraved on the memorial, words that are relevant not just to remembering Llan, but to remembering all those who are exploited to this day across the world.

'They take us from our cradles and they work us to death.'

'They take us from our cradles and they work us to death.'

Diolch yn fawr.

Last Thursday, at just 14 years old, Kyle Sieniawski from Pontypridd tragically passed away, and I wish to pay tribute today to a wonderful, caring and inspirational boy that was taken far too soon.

Kyle first began suffering with neurological issues in March 2024, and in January, he received a devastating diagnosis of motor neurone disease. He is believed to be the UK's youngest person to ever be diagnosed with this cruel disease, and since last new year's eve, he had been living in a hospital room at Noah's Ark Children's Hospital for Wales, alongside his parents, Mark and Melanie, and his brother Liam.

Prior to this, Kyle was healthy, just like any other boy his age, and enjoyed playing with his friends. His favourite hobby was taekwondo, and he had the most beautiful smile and a great sense of humour. Despite everything he went through over the past year, his smile and humour, as well as his love for Connect 4, shone through brightly in all the updates shared by his family via the Facebook page Kyle's MND Story.

More than anything, and despite the wonderful care he received at hospital, Kyle wanted to come home. His family did everything possible to try and make that happen, even putting their home on the market, as it was not suitable for adaptations. However, as is the case far too often with MND sufferers, such support was far too slow, with the family having to fight continuously at a time when they should have just been able to focus on Kyle. Unfortunately for Kyle and his family, it meant he never got his wish. The family have vowed to continue campaigning in Kyle's memory to ensure no family has to go through what they did, and they have my full support.

But, today, I'm sure that all Senedd Members will join me in sending our deepest condolences to Mark, Melanie, Liam and all of Kyle's family and friends. Though his life was far too short, he shone brightly and was so loved. He will never be forgotten by all who met him or were touched by his story.

Thank you, all.

Item 5 is a debate on the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee report, 'Hybu Cig Cymru'. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion—Andrew R.T. Davies.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I move the motion in my name on the order paper.

Our red meat is a product we can be very proud of as a nation. It has an excellent global reputation and is enjoyed at barbecues in Barry and by dignitaries in Dubai. Our meat is high-quality, high-welfare meat with a low carbon footprint. I would personally argue this is an industry where Welsh products are second to none. However, our farmers and processors face a number of challenges.

Members will be aware that food inflation and the general cost-of-living squeeze is making Welsh products less affordable, and that the cost of farming has dramatically increased. I'm not going to go through every challenge facing the farmers, but it is at times like this that it's important that the Government is firing on all cylinders to support the industry, and that includes arm's-length bodies performing to the best of their ability. Sadly, recently this has not been the case with HCC. Members will be aware of the turmoil that has recently beset the organisation and allegations that have been made in the media about the culture at HCC. That turmoil will have been a major distraction for the staff at HCC, preventing them from performing their core task.

The committee is not an employment tribunal, and the report does not look to examine the allegations or issues. Instead, we decided to produce a forward-looking report that aims to ensure steps are taken to get HCC back on track and stop similar issues happening in the future.

As well as the challenges farmers are facing with the introduction of the sustainable farming scheme and the changes to inheritance tax, there’s a lot of uncertainty for them for the future. As you will be aware, Deputy Presiding Officer, farming is an industry that needs certainty. Farming is a long-term game—a marathon, not a sprint. As a result of these challenges and uncertainty for our meat industry, standing still cannot be an option for HCC.

I was hoping that this report would have helped the Welsh Government and the HCC board to reinvigorate the organisation. This is the perfect time to reassess the HCC operation and to retool it in order to give the new chief executive the best chance to ensure HCC can play its vital role in supporting our red meat industry. However, Deputy Presiding Officer, judging by the response to our report, this is an opportunity I fear the current Welsh Government are going to miss.

The report makes nine recommendations. The recommendations include looking at the governance, and possibly the ownership, of HCC in order to strengthen the controls and give levy payers a more direct influence over the organisation. HCC has a big task, and funding is clearly going to be a challenge for it in the future. That funding is linked to livestock numbers—a levy is paid per head of animal processed. With decreasing livestock numbers, that constrains the income HCC receives. Also, it was drawn to our attention that, due to a reclassification of VAT, the budget had taken a £0.5 million hit because of that reclassification and HCC being unable to reclaim it. Bearing in mind the total budget of HCC is about £4.5 million, that is a substantial dent in the income available to HCC to promote Welsh lamb and beef and red meat products.

We believe, therefore, it is critical that the measurement that HCC is performing to is measured by key performance indicators, and that this reporting data is made available to measure the progress that levy payers can see HCC is making in the future. The reason we focus on the governance, and went as far as to suggest that the Welsh Government consider returning HCC to levy payers, is because clearly that governance system has recently failed. It failed the customers, namely the levy payers, and it failed the people who work at HCC. We hope amplifying the voice of levy payers at senior levels in the organisation will help keep HCC honest and focused.

As a member of the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee, I'm grateful for the opportunity to speak. I'd like to thank the Chair, Andrew R.T. Davies, as well as the clerks and everybody that contributed to this report, including the witnesses.

Red meat is a source of pride for Welsh farming and for Wales as a whole. It sustains our rural economy, supports thousands of families and it carries with it sustainability, traceability and exceptional quality. Hybu Cig Cymru should be playing a critical role in promoting our product and supporting the sector. So, when the committee put forward a series of recommendations intended to strengthen HCC and give levy payers more confidence in how their money is being used, it was disappointing to see several of those recommendations rejected by the Government.

Turning first to recommendation 1, our call for a review of HCC's governance with a view of enhancing representation of levy payers and increasing wider industry involvement, the Government rejected this, arguing that the current board already includes levy payers and that the public appointees bring important skills. Yet the whole purpose of our recommendation was to acknowledge what we heard clearly during the inquiry: levy payers want and deserve stronger ownership of the body funded by their hard-earned contributions.

NFU Cymru in their evidence made an important point: that while Government appointments bring breadth, the process itself must ensure that producers and processors are more than simply represented; they should have a direct and permanent role in board appointments. The idea of farming unions and processor associations having designated seats is not a radical idea; it's a practical way of ensuring accountability to industry. Rejecting this idea outright feels like a missed opportunity, as the Chair alluded to. I would go a step further personally, and say that the Welsh Government should return full ownership of HCC to levy payers and the industry.

Turning to recommendations 2 and 3 on the financial sustainability of HCC, these were accepted in principle, but acceptance in principle does not pay for marketing campaigns or sector development. NFU Cymru reminded us that the original rationale for HCC being owned by Welsh Ministers was precisely so that the Government could invest in its work. That investment has now fallen away.

Meanwhile, in Ireland, there is substantial Government funding for bodies like Bord Bia. Irish farmers benefit from a model where levy funding accounts for just 5 per cent of income, with Government stepping up to support marketing and promotion. If Wales does not match the level of ambition, we risk falling behind in both domestic and overseas markets. If Government does not believe it appropriate to provide such support, then we return to my earlier point and the legitimate question: what is the continuing justification for HCC to be owned by Welsh Ministers?

As the Member who highlighted many of the concerns about the internal culture of Hybu Cig Cymru almost two years ago now, and as one who called on the economy committee to hold an inquiry into the body, I'd like to thank the Chair and the committee for their work and for the report before us today.

At that point, there were calls for HCC to be abolished and for a new body to be created. I don't necessarily agree with that point of view; what I want to see is that HCC delivers its full potential and becomes an effective champion for the Welsh red meat sector, delivering on its duty and remit to the greatest possible extent. But that does mean moving on from previous difficulties to look anew at governance arrangements and to ensure that the Welsh Government does provide the necessary support to the sector and to Hybu Cig Cymru so that it can do what it is required to deliver. I do welcome the committee's recommendations as a good starting point with that work.

I don't want to use this debate to rehearse the difficulties of the past. And in saying that, I'm not suggesting that there isn't more work to be done when it comes to the corporate culture. But with a new chief executive in charge, I think there is an opportunity to restore and rebuild confidence in the body as an entity, but also in its ability to deliver for levy payers and the broader red meat sector. The Government, as we've heard, has rejected a recommendation to review the governance of Hybu Cig Cymru, but I have to say that, given all the problems that have been faced over the past two or three years, how else can the Welsh Government provide itself with assurances that the current arrangements are fit for purpose?

I would echo the comments that we've heard in emphasising that levy payer voices should be fully represented. I also acknowledge that, on a board, you need a broad range of skills and expertise. Perhaps I'm going to contradict myself slightly here, but for a body that employs 30 staff, they have a board of around 12. Is there a question as to whether there are too many members? I don't know, but a review process, or taking an objective look, would be of benefit. Because if we want to create a dynamic, flexible body that can respond and act quickly when necessary, then that needs to be reflected in the governance structures. It's a question to be asked and something that a review, perhaps, could consider.

I support what the committee has to say about the resources available to HCC to deliver its remit effectively. The levy income itself is not going to be enough to deliver what we all want to see happen. I'm experienced enough to know, too, that the Government doesn't have significant funds that it can throw in the direction of Hybu Cig Cymru. So, the question then is: how can we leverage additional resources in order to add value to the funding coming from the levy and from the Government? And we need to turn every stone, within Government, yes, but there are external grants too, as the report mentions. Developing their own income from their own services is an option, and working with other bodies is also important in order to share resources, but also to share costs, where that's possible, and to ensure the best value for money for every pound spent. And I hope that when we do see the Hybu Cig Cymru vision until 2030, perhaps there may be elements of that highlighted there.

And I call on the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Thank you very much, and thank you for giving me an opportunity to respond and draw attention to the important work that Hybu Cig Cymru achieves.

And my thanks to the Chair and committee members, and former members indeed, for their contributions today as well.

First of all, let me state, right at the outset, my and the Welsh Government's commitment to a vibrant and sustainable future for Welsh agriculture, with the sustainable farming scheme at the heart of this vision. And by championing sustainable livestock production, we aim to foster resilient best practice and long-term viability right across the sector. And Hybu Cig Cymru plays a crucial role in this, in delivering these ambitions, working in partnership with Government, and with industry, to promote innovation, to support the sector's strategic objectives and to ensure that Welsh farming continues to thrive for generations to come.

So, my thanks to the Chair and the committee for their thorough and diligent inquiry into Hybu Cig Cymru and for the recommendations. I'd also like to take this opportunity to thank those who gave up their time in providing evidence to the committee to assess.

So, let me turn directly to the detail of the report, and in so doing I'll respond to some of the matters raised in today's debate as well. I recognise, first of all, that the committee's recommendations are made with the clear intention of supporting the new chief executive of HCC and helping the organisation move forward. The Welsh Government shares the committee's commitment to ensure that HCC is well governed, that it's accountable and that it's able to deliver for levy payers and the wider industry. And to that end, I have indeed accepted many of the recommendations made, as the Chair pointed out. But each recommendation was very carefully considered in the context of HCC's current governance, the skills and experience of its board and the need for stability as the new chief executive implements changes and develops the very important vision for 2026 to 2030.

So, let me, first of all, address the three recommendations that we are not able to agree. Regarding recommendation 1 on the matter of governance, the current HCC board, as we've pointed out in our response, already includes a majority of levy payers and a diverse range of expertise, which includes marketing, finance, animal health and sustainability. And we believe as a Government that this provides a strong foundation for robust oversight and effective delivery. Now, following a skills gap analysis undertaken of the board, I will shortly be embarking on a recruitment campaign to recruit new board members, and, of course, I will take into account the committee's recommendations as part of that recruitment process.

Thank you very much. I'm grateful to you for giving way; I'm conscious that you may well be in the wrap-up. Given that this report comes off the back of very public challenges faced by HCC and some of its staff—in my contribution I raised the point that no public apology has been made—are you going to take the opportunity to publicly apologise on behalf of the Government, as the Government owns HCC, to those members of staff who felt that they had no other option other than leaving HCC because of those issues?

Sam, you will be aware from previous debates that we've had on this issue that, whilst Welsh Government is not directly engaged in the internal management or human resource management, we've been very clear with HCC that they need to have the very best practices and improve their procedures of internal governance, particularly with HR as well, going forward. I've seen the results of that tangibly, over the 15 months or so that I've been in post, of them putting in place those measures. We've debated them previously on the floor here. It's very important that HCC, when going forward, works with all of its board members, its internal team, to make sure that that organisation is performing for levy payers, and also doing so in accordance with the best practice in terms of governance and internal governance and HR as well. Dirprwy Lywydd, we've also seen positive progress in stakeholder engagement and HCC actively seeking views from across the industry as it has developed its new vision. This work is going to be critical in shaping the future of the sector and ensuring, indeed, that all voices are heard.

Just in closing, I want to reiterate my thanks to the Chair and to the committee for their constructive challenge and ongoing scrutiny. While we might not agree on every single recommendation, our shared goal is a vibrant, sustainable and successful future for Welsh agriculture and the red meat sector. I look forward to continued dialogue and collaboration as we work together to achieve that goal. Diolch.

I call on the Chair of the committee to reply to the debate—Andrew R.T. Davies.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I thank the two Members who contributed to this debate. I think that's the lowest number I've ever seen contribute to a committee debate, which is a real shame considering the grief that has been inflicted on people who've worked at HCC over a number of years, which Llyr highlighted and the media have covered. I have to say, I'm frankly amazed that such little interest has been expressed in this Chamber on this report, given the difficulties and personal situations that people have found themselves in at HCC. But I thank the two Members who contributed to the debate today. Their contributions were knowledgeable and informed, as you would expect from two Members who are very aware of these issues at this Government-owned organisation.

Sam Kurtz highlighted the issue around levy payers' views being taken on board and accepted in full. That is why full industry ownership, as highlighted in the report, should be considered by the Welsh Government. The Minister, in his reply, said that there was a contradiction in that view, in that voices were calling for Welsh Government money to go into the organisation but then saying that it should be sold. There's no contradiction in that at all. Organisations come for support from Welsh Government, from all walks of life, which aren't owned by the Welsh Government, and the Welsh Government decides, on merit, whether it wishes to put taxpayers' money in to promote the various paths that that organisation might be promoting. So, when you consider the issues that have gone on at HCC, the Minister and his officials could have at least acknowledged that this was something that should have been considered, and accepted that recommendation so that it could have been worked up.

That's why, in my remarks when I opened this debate, I highlighted how there is an election around the corner. I very much hope that whoever forms the Government after May will look at this as a serious issue, as a way of invigorating HCC, and actually look at how we can create a meat promotion body that is fit for purpose and ready to take on the challenges in a demanding world of retail space that is always looking for new product and a consumer with a discerning palate that ultimately can decide where they want to spend their money.

The Cabinet Secretary, in his response, dismissed that recommendation and said that it was not worthy of consideration. He emphasised the point about the vision 2026-30 document and put a lot of store on that, as did Llyr, who highlighted that particular document that HCC are working up at the moment. I very much hope that that document does succeed in actually moving forward the promotional activity of the organisation, so that instead of having its funds drained paying high-priced solicitors and HR advisers, we can actually get levy income behind a vision document that ultimately will deliver greater success and greater market penetration for the red meat sector.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Item 6 this afternoon is a debate on the Equality and Social Justice Committee report, 'Co-operation over Conflict: Wales must Act'. And I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion—Jenny Rathbone.

A crisis of trust in institutions, deepening inequality, an epidemic of fake news—these are some of the worrying trends that are contributing to a decline in social cohesion that we catalogue in our report. Too many people feel they are not seen, valued or heard, and this is adding to a tinderbox of discontent, which literally is threatening our democracy. I want to pay credit to all those who took part in our inquiry, whose valuable contribution we endeavour to reflect.

First of all, social cohesion is not a slogan, it's a safeguard. It is the quiet, everyday confidence that your neighbour is not a stranger, that we all belong in the place we call home and that our differences are not a risk, they are a resource. True, democracy is sometimes messy, but nonetheless vital. The alternative is coercion and brute force. It is built in our communities, our shared spaces, usually one conversation at a time. Wales has these foundations of cynefin and croeso that we need to draw on in these challenging times. These foundations are being fractured like never before, both from increasing inequalities, as well as foreign forces throwing money at disinformation, deliberately designed to create discord and resentment.

Dame Sara Khan spent three years looking at the threats to social cohesion and the state of democratic resilience, and she found declining levels of civil engagement and growing levels of disillusionment with democracy. And it is sad to report that very little action resulted from her report to the then Government in March 2024. In our world beset by what Dame Sarah Khan calls 'freedom-restricting harassment', it involves courage and leadership to choose co-operation over conflict.

The central message of our report is that it is our duty not to run away from the challenges, as a few people in the Chamber seem to have done, but we really do need to run towards them in order to tackle them. As politicians, we must do more to damp down the bonfire of dissatisfaction and contend the attempts to fan the flames of division. The solutions have to be found from the bottom up, not by some faraway Government prescribing Pride in Place or Plan for Neighbourhoods without the knowledge or know-how of who holds the community or leadership assets or the priorities of the people who live there.

We found lots of excellent examples of resilient communities in our visits to Caia Park in Wrexham, Cae Fardre in Church Village, Rhondda Cynon Taf, and Railway Gardens in Splott, which demonstrated to us the importance of people coming together and of protecting the places where people can meet, share their concerns and organise. The evidence we received from the Building Communities Trust was categorical: the least resilient communities are those with high deprivation and few community assets.

Whilst, in general terms, the Welsh Government has embraced all four of our recommendations, their response to the need to rectify the lack of statutory rights for communities in Wales to buy land or assets, as in Scotland, and the right to bid or challenge, as in England, is disappointing. The UK Government is currently consulting on the community right to buy, and we need to ensure that Wales has this right as well. We are disappointed that the response from the Welsh Government collectively, not by the individual Cabinet Secretary, is so tentative and slow.

I'd like to thank the Equality and Social Justice Committee for their report and all the witnesses who gave evidence, and also Dame Sara Khan for her invaluable insight into the reasons for a rise in extremist views across the political spectrum.

The committee's report makes it very clear that social cohesion in Wales is under threat, and it sets some of the measures that need to be taken, including, in many cases, building on some of the positive work already taking place to strengthen the cohesiveness of our communities.

The report highlights a few community initiatives that the Chair of the committee has referred to this afternoon, and I just want to highlight one positive example in my own constituency, and that is the 'Connecting the Community' initiative organised by Councillor Randell Izaiah Thomas-Turner and Councillor Dani Thomas-Turner. The project is supported by several local organisations and invites residents for free hot meals and free activities in Haverfordwest. It's an inclusive space for local businesses and charities to engage with residents and to build bridges in the community. And it's that sort of activity that the Welsh Government should be supporting at a grass-roots level in our communities, building bridges and networks across our communities in spaces where everyone is valued, welcomed and included.

Now, the committee's first recommendation is for the Welsh Government to establish an expert group on social cohesion to devise a set of short, medium and long-term actions to protect and expand social cohesion. I'm sure the Cabinet Secretary will tell us a bit more about the progress of that work and the work being done by that expert group in her response to this debate.

Now, the report highlights some areas where work can be done in relation to the community cohesion programme, such as tackling the inconsistency across the eight cohesion regions of Wales. Because in some areas regional cohesion leads are very proactive, and in other regions less so.

The report also highlights a lack of clear objectives, transparency and information about the community cohesion programme, including how the programme is monitored. And so, perhaps the Cabinet Secretary will take the opportunity to tell us how this programme has been monitored since it was established back in 2009 and whether or not there's any merit in the expert group reviewing the programme as part of its work.

Now, the committee's third recommendation calls on the Welsh Government to assume a leadership role for dealing with misinformation and disinformation. Dame Sara Khan emphasised the declining levels of social cohesion, along with the declining levels of civic engagement, and stark warnings about growing levels of disillusionment with democracy and distrust in our democratic institutions.

This report is hugely important, I believe, because it relates to a matter that is crucial to the future of our society, and asks how we will co-produce the Wales of the future so that we can live together in that future Wales.

The inquiry was partly inspired by the serious social unrest in England during the summer of 2024, following the appalling murders of three young girls in Southport. And although Wales did not experience the same sort of riots at that time, there were examples of social unrest in Swansea and Cardiff the previous summer, and as our inquiry drew to a close, Wales saw further evidence of social division as protests and the use of our national flag led to concerning tensions the length and breadth of the country. All of this demonstrates that Wales is not exempt from the threat and detrimental impact of a lack of social cohesion.

The report presents clear evidence of the challenges facing us in this regard, and calls for a determined and urgent response from the Government to prevent further deterioration in the social fabric that sustains our society's well-being, threatening the safety of our citizens, particularly some specific groups, such as ethnic minorities, refugees and asylum seekers, and LGBTQ+ individuals, along with the health of our democracy.

I'm pleased that the Government has accepted every one of the committee's recommendations and has responded at pace, in accordance with our first recommendation, to establish an expert group to lead the work on seeking ways of bringing our communities together in the face of this increasing division. I would, however, like to ask on that: when can we expect this group to report, and when we will see action on its recommendations? We recommended that the Government should reflect the same type of response as was seen for the cost-of-living crisis, and that a report should be submitted by the end of the year, with a set of actions to be implemented immediately, in the medium term, and in the long term, which is what was done by the cost-of-living panel that was established. So, what is the reason for not adopting the same approach?

By the same token, I am rather disappointed by the lack of a sense of urgency in the response to recommendation 2 on taking steps to safeguard community spaces. They gave, in response, a commitment to explore a community right to buy. The Future Generations Commissioner for Wales, the Institute of Welsh Affairs, the Building Communities Trust and others are concerned about the impact of the decrease in the number of community spaces on social cohesion, and they support the introduction of a community right to buy, as exists, in different forms, in England and Scotland. The rationale is clear, there are clear models to emulate, so why has there not been any action on this, and what is the rationale for further delay?

Diolch. I'm very pleased to speak on this important report, and I want to also say that I'm so glad that the Cabinet Secretary immediately agreed to the setting up of the expert group on social cohesion. I know a lot of work in Wales has already been done on community cohesion, and I do applaud the community cohesion programme that is operating across all 22 local authorities. On the role of community co-ordinators, which has already been referred to by the Chair, I think they are fairly unique in the UK, and I'm really pleased that the Cabinet Secretary is committed to maintaining the funding for the cohesion programme. But I do think that the setting up of this group will give a national direction to the work, and I'm very pleased in the choice of chair, that Gaynor Legall has been appointed as chair of the group, because I think we all know of her great track record.

I'll direct the rest of my comments about conclusion 3, which highlights the lack of trust in democracy. It relates in particular to the declining trust in institutions and politicians, and calls on the Welsh Government to prioritise its work to involve citizens in decision making through deliberative democratic methods. Of course, there are so many methods that can be used to employ people, such as citizens' assemblies, referendums, polling, focus groups. I think we have used those occasionally, but I do think there needs to be a great effort to create as many ways as possible to involve people in decision making and to give them a chance to feel that they are part of the decision-making process. Our report stresses the importance of participation by the public and their involvement in decision making, because I do think it's absolutely crucial in an effective democracy that people feel they've got a stake in what's happening and that they feel that they can actually influence events. And I think many people feel that they have no power and that they don't have a say.

So, I think it's important that we educate and encourage, and in particular young people to be involved in decisions. And it's great, I think, that the Senedd has extended voting in Senedd elections and local government elections to 16 and 17-year-olds, and that the UK Government is going to extend it so that 16 and 17-year-olds can vote in UK parliamentary elections in the future. But I do think it's really important that we make every effort to ensure that children in schools have political education, and of course the new curriculum does encourage that to happen. Like many other Members, I've been out to speak to many primary and secondary schools about what you're able to achieve in politics, and how important it is to have your say, and I think that's what we need to get out to people, and to children in particular, that we can change things.

I'm grateful to you for taking the intervention. I'm delighted to hear your reflections on the engagement of the faith communities in this agenda. I don't know if you were present for the launch of the 'Faith in Wales' report, which was published by the Evangelical Alliance very recently, but it demonstrated the massive positive impact of the broad range of faith communities across Wales on all sorts of pieces of work that this Senedd has a key stake in being able to deliver.

Would you agree with me that we should commend the Evangelical Alliance, and all of those various faith communities from all sorts of different traditions, for the excellent work that they're doing across Wales on this issue that we're discussing today, and a whole range of others?

Yes, I thank Darren Millar very much for that intervention, and I think it is very important that we recognise the huge efforts that are made by many different groups to ensure that we do work towards a cohesive Wales. I believe that that's what we are doing in this Senedd, and I think that this report contributes to achieving that. Diolch.

I want to begin by thanking all of the organisations that contributed to this report. Their evidence and testimony shaped the language we use today, language that reflects the genuine urgency of the situation we are facing, language that speaks of tinderboxes and bonfires. Thank you also to my colleagues, and I'm sorry that Altaf isn't with us this afternoon. I thank Paul Davies for giving the Conservative response—diolch yn fawr iawn. And I'd also like to thank the clerks of the committee and also other staff that helped in the production of this report.

I was somebody who wasn't that keen on us looking at this issue, but actually I can see that this is such a fundamentally important issue for us right now here in Wales and in the future. I welcome many aspects of the Welsh Government's response to our report. The creation of the expert group last month under an independent chair and the critical extension of community cohesion programme funding are both welcome. But our report talks about tinderboxes and bonfires now. From Llanelli to Newtown, the pressures are escalating in communities across Wales, and fear and division are beginning to take hold.

It takes only one spark to ignite a crisis. The national survey for Wales demonstrates that agreement across three cohesion measures has fallen from 64 per cent to 58 per cent, with a particular decline in individuals' sense of belonging. As we've heard, the WLGA, Race Council Cymru and Wales Safer Communities Network all report rising hate crimes and online abuse. In 2022 alone, attacks targeting people because of their religion increased by 26 per cent and those aimed at transgender individuals rose by 22 per cent.

I want to focus my content here on two particular areas that we’ve heard a bit about: the social media disinformation and misinformation, and also the democratic deficit. The tensions are also compounded, we must not forget, by poverty and economic inequality. We must ensure that we have the foundations in place to ensure that we can build on the good work that we hope this report will take forward.

In terms of misinformation and disinformation, particularly around social media, we've had shocking examples, and many of us in this Siambr can testify to that. But if we look at organisations representing refugees and asylum seekers, we can see that the Welsh Refugee Council, for example, had to close its doors for three days because of targeted online abuse—not because of any external security threat, but because a distorted video link triggered a wave of hatred that left staff, volunteers and already traumatised refugees unsafe. This isn’t theoretical, this is happening to real people right now in our communities.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, Jane Hutt.

I thank the Equality and Social Justice Committee for producing this timely and important set of recommendations. I also extend my thanks to all of the people and organisations who contributed their lived experience and expertise during the evidence-gathering process. We are undeniably living in a very challenging period of time for social cohesion in Wales and across the UK and the world. The rapid spread of new technologies and declining trust in public institutions has left our communities vulnerable to division and simplistic hateful narratives. We've seen the flooding of online spaces with false information to cause anger, anxiety and confusion.

Extremists continue to infiltrate communities to stoke tensions during periods of vulnerability. Of course, this has led you to mount this inquiry. As a result, many of our friends, families, colleagues and neighbours are scared by this volatile climate and by the toxic discourse they see and experience online, in the media, and increasingly on their street. The committee highlighted these deep concerns very effectively, but also reflected on many positives, which have also been shared today, including the strong foundations we have in Wales and examples of communities coming together to resolve conflict and help each other through difficult times.

We know that achieving cohesive communities will never be achieved by working alone. We need a whole-of-society approach. I hope the committee's report and the expert group it has inspired—and I hand that to you; you have inspired us to take this forward—will set us upon the right path. The collaboration that we seek is sought locally, nationally and internationally; we need the other three nations of the UK to work with us to address these fundamental challenges. The Deputy First Minister expressed support for establishing an inter-ministerial group on community cohesion during the Interministerial Standing Committee on 20 November, and he's going to be writing formally to committees to provide an update following these discussions. I look forward to joining such an inter-ministerial group.

When the committee published its report, I immediately confirmed our intention to take forward recommendations 1 and 4 of the report through the establishment of the expert group on cohesion. We have since convened, and it has been acknowledged today in this debate, a group of experts from local government, policing, third sector organisations, academic and research institutions, as well as policy and strategic experts, community leaders, and experts by experience.

Will you take a very quick intervention?

Yes, of course.

Thank you. Thank you very much for explaining the principles of the group. I'm just keen that they also can prioritise the area of social media misinformation and disinformation. I just wondered what your direction was to them in terms of that particular area. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

They are very keen to encompass all of those key issues. I think the principles they're talking about are cohesion principles, which can guide not just the work of the committee, but can guide us all in terms of how we take this forward.

The group is looking at medium and long-term actions. It is looking at a focus of how we measure cohesion, better monitoring and mitigation of cohesion threats. Also—and this was recommended by the committee—we've already opened up a dialogue with Oldham Council; it's very helpful that you engaged with them. We've met already with them to ensure that their work to measure community cohesion and tackle misinformation and disinformation, which is your key point, is being addressed. The expert group is keen on this, but we're already engaging. The expert group's recommendation will be finalised by March, and of course it will be available for the next Welsh Government to adopt.

The committee also recommended that we review the funding of the cohesion programme, and this has been mentioned today. I've extended the funding of the community cohesion programme until 2029 to allow local authorities and ourselves to build on the achievements highlighted during the inquiry. On Monday, I met with Welsh Local Government Association cabinet members to discuss our shared challenges to fostering community cohesion, offering ongoing Welsh Government support, and they are also involved in the expert group.

In relation to recommendation 2, which has been brought up for discussion today, I can say we are, Sioned, firmly committed to progressing a community right to buy. A Bill is being prepared in readiness for the next Senedd term. The current expectation is that the community assets commission's report will be published before the end of the year. This is a commitment, again, that I know you will welcome. On working to improve community assets, since 2022, as you know, we've invested £4.6 million into our safe and warm hubs. Thank you, Paul, for giving that positive example in Pembrokeshire about connecting communities. We can see that across Wales. Swansea University's research has shown that warm spaces play a significant role in fostering social connections and alleviating loneliness.

Also, we've provided over £70 million in nearly 500 projects since 2015 through our community facilities programme. I think many of the projects you visited had been beneficiaries of that programme. Bringing people together, providing places for people to meet, socialise, work and volunteer is essential, and that is what we do in Wales. I do want to also acknowledge the work of Ystadau Cymru, the community asset and social value working group, which does facilitate collaboration between all of those community interests.

I call on Jenny Rathbone to reply to the debate.

Thank you, Paul Davies, for making the contribution on behalf of your group. I know that Altaf cares deeply about this, and unfortunately he's not able to be here today. It was great to hear about your three community leaders in Pembrokeshire connecting the community. That's incredibly important. That's the sort of political leadership we need across Wales. People who aren't prepared to do this sort of grass-roots stuff need to step aside so that somebody else can take over that role, because it is so important. Yesterday, on the television, we were reminded that there were 17,000 elderly people in Wales who were not even going to be able to exchange a Christmas card with anybody. That makes you cry, doesn't it? That sort of loneliness is horrendous. That is not the Wales we want.

Thank you also for raising the importance of having a clear strategy for combating toxic lies, and reminding us that, indeed, some politicians have been murdered. I think Dr Andrew Thomas's evidence about the incel movement and the way in which it is affecting or infecting some of our young people—. It's really important that, as the Cabinet Secretary referred to, the curriculum is dealing with what is normal behaviour, that we need to express our emotions and feelings and have the freedom to explore what we think, but we absolutely need to know what normal human relations are like, and that needs to start from a very early age, in the nursery. Obviously, it's a different conversation for children and young people in secondary school, but nevertheless, we need to respect each other and the basis of all that is very, very important. I think our curriculum really does grasp that and it's really good to see that happening.

Sioned Williams, you were right to emphasise that the people who feel on the front line of all this at the moment are our ethnic minorities, our LGBT communities, anybody with a disability, people who are slightly different from the next person, and it is really scary for them. One of the most terrifying conversations I had recently was with a senior doctor in my local health board who was born in Wales, but who said, 'I'm not sure I feel welcome here in this country anymore', simply because he's not white. I mean, it's really dangerous and also takes no account of our history. We're all immigrants, frankly, and there is so much strength in immigrants, and that's a conversation I'm sure many of us had on the doorstep in Caerphilly—and it's great to see Lindsay Whittle here—because people think that immigrants are somehow a threat to them, and yet I pointed out to them that, in my constituency, there are many more immigrants and a much more vibrant economy, and there's a link there. We need to be putting forward to people that immigrants bring skills with them that enrich our society.

Julie Morgan, you highlighted the importance of the community cohesion co-ordinators—if they didn't exist, we'd need to invent them. And Jacqueline Broadhead of the Inclusive Cities UK went out of her way to praise the Welsh Government for the role that these people can play and how different it was in many English authorities. So, it's incredibly disappointing, really, to hear that the British Government has been a little bit tardy on getting these four-nation discussions together, because, of all people, the people of Northern Ireland know what happens when you have people fighting each other because they come from different religions. And so we can certainly learn from them what the risks are and what the advantages are of grasping this as well. But, of course, we need to be respectful of all religious leaders, as Julie Morgan highlighted, and there was a welcome intervention from Darren Millar about faith in Wales and the ecumenical work, as well as the social work that religious groups do in all our communities that other people are not doing, and we absolutely have to commend them and celebrate their work.

Jane Dodds, you emphasised the combination of the growing economic inequality. It's not so much poverty, because if we were all poor—it would be problematic, but of a different order to the discord that's caused by inequality. And the events that took place in my constituency, where the Welsh Refugee Council had to close in order to protect staff and the users and the general community—I mean, these are really disturbing events, and we need to reflect on how we can avoid them, which is why there is such an important role for these community co-ordinators to be that sounding board for communities and to take the action needed to prevent things exploding and causing far too much damage. You're absolutely right to say that we should have a Member accountability Bill. Words matter, particularly in the context of everything that's going on at the moment. The Cabinet Secretary reminded us that the people who are most anxious are our friends, our families, our neighbours.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? There is no objection. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Item 7 today is the Plaid Cymru debate on the provisional local government settlement. I call on Peredur Owen Griffiths to move the motion.

Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. We know that local governments are facing a crisis across Wales. The WLGA has said that councils are facing £560 million-worth of financial pressure, which would require a 7 per cent increase in net revenue expenditure. The £169 million increase in the provisional budget won't cover even a third of that shortfall.

While the draft budget allocates £6.4 billion in core revenue and non-domestic rates funding, equating to an average funding increase of 2.7 per cent, this still leaves budgetary pressures of about 5 per cent for councils across Wales. Figures from the WLGA estimate that even a 3 per cent increase would leave councils short of £373 million. An increase of 2 per cent was estimated to leave authorities short of £436 million.

The intense pressure that councils across Wales are facing will mean that local authorities will need to increase council tax or cut jobs, or a combination of both. Evidence from the WLGA spells out that a 3 per cent funding increase could mean either a 19 per cent council tax increase or 12,000 job losses. These decisions, necessary for maintaining vital services, will have real effects on communities across the country, compounding pressures on the cost-of-living crisis.

It's clear that the provisional settlement will cause real issues. We are prepared to see how we can work with the Government to ensure that councils and communities, the length and breadth of Wales, receive more funding to protect vital services and to keep council tax bills as low as possible.

Local authorities have often highlighted the constraints that they face with annual funding models, especially when it comes to grants. Councillors have expressed frustration with grant timelines, meaning that budgets are often made without certainty. They have also expressed that grants are often too restraining, forcing councils to spend money on projects that may not be important in their area. Many have expressed that grant money should be included in the revenue support grant to give councils the flexibility that they desire—some of that work has happened already, but more can be done—and that these funds should also be allocated on a multi-year basis.

We know that the nature of the funding model is determined by the Welsh Government's budget, which is why it is allocated annually like its national counterpart. A local authority, just like a nation, cannot sustainably and meaningfully dedicate the required resources to fix its issues without the certainty that this money will continue.

We need an independent review of local authority funding, and we need more certainty for the Welsh budget if we are to sustainably and meaningfully invest in our communities. I look forward to this debate and the vital topic that we will discuss this afternoon. I move the motion in Heledd Fychan's name. Diolch yn fawr.

I have selected the amendments to the motion, and I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language to move formally amendment 1.

Formally.

It is moved. Therefore, Joel James to move amendment 2.

Thank you, Llywydd. I'd like to move the amendment tabled in the name of Paul Davies, which seeks to build upon the original motion. As such, let me begin by outlining our support for the motion put forward by Plaid Cymru. The local government settlement published on 24 November is yet another textbook example of Welsh Labour doing the bare minimum and expecting councils to somehow perform miracles. It's stretched, it's unrealistic and it's totally disconnected from the daily realities local authorities face. Cabinet Secretaries may try to dress it up as 'challenging but fair', but no amount of spin can disguise the fact that councils will yet again be left struggling to protect even the most basic services.

When the Welsh Local Government Association warns that this settlement will mean dramatic council tax rises and thousands of job losses, the Government should take notice that this is not a polite suggestion, it is a damning indictment. These warnings come from every corner of Wales, across every political colour of council united in saying the same thing: this settlement is nowhere near enough. Yet this tired Government ultimately believes in its own falsehoods, pretending everything is fine whilst public services collapse all around them.

The motion rightly highlights the growing crisis in rural areas. Rural councils have faced higher delivery costs and chronic underfunding for years, and this settlement pushes them closer to the edge. I fear it risks stripping away core services from communities that already feel ignored, and those in rural Wales are the ones who will be forced to pay the highest price for a Labour Government unwilling to face reality.

There needs to be more protection for front-line services, and action to stop council tax bills spiralling out of control is needed. Residents are not cash machines for Government failures, and councils should not be forced to make impossible choices because Welsh Labour has once again failed to deliver a sustainable settlement. The Welsh Labour Government must stop pushing the burden downward.

Llywydd, I had hoped that the Government would take responsibility for this mess, but let's be honest, that's not what socialists do. They can only blame other people, and when the money runs out, they can only say it's not their fault. Llywydd, we have heard all these excuses time and time before. The Welsh Conservatives say, 'Enough is enough.' Wales needs a Government that funds local services properly, instead of leaving councils to pick up the pieces.

The consequences of this settlement will be felt for years to come—[Interruption.]—with weaker services, job losses and households yet again—let me finish—having to deal to with paying more for less. The Labour Party can spin, deflect or deny all they want, but the reality is clearly written in the WLGA's dire warning and in the budgets of every council across Wales.

I'm not here to defend the Labour Government, but do you think the UK Government under Conservative rule fairly funded English councils, and if so, why did Birmingham go bust?

Well, I think with that you will need to ask Birmingham council, really. I think the Conservative Government played with the cards that they were dealt with from the previous administration, if I'm honest. I know we've always said that, but that's what I honestly believe.

Right, carrying on, Llywydd, I am pleased to advocate for the Welsh Conservatives' amendments because they speak directly to the frustrations felt by councils and communities after years of mismanagement, stagnation and a lack of accountability in Welsh local government finance. For far too long, the Welsh Government has resisted meaningful reform of a system everyone knows is outdated and unfair. These amendments put forward practical, common-sense measures that should have been actioned years ago. An independent review is not just desirable, it's long overdue. Councils across Wales have long argued that the current settlement does not reflect realities on the ground. The Government's promise to keep the formula under review has become code for kicking it into the long grass and doing as little as possible. An external review would give bite in helping to break that cycle and deliver the fairness and transparency that local authorities deserve.

I have spoken numerous times in this Chamber about how residents across Wales are struggling with rising council tax bills, yet the Government continues to push responsibility on to councils while rejecting serious efforts to ease this burden. This amendment rightly encourages councils to use reserves responsibly to protect taxpayers. Instead of systematically and callously picking residents' pockets, it calls for smarter financial management and genuine collaboration. It cannot be understated how right it is that council tax rises over 5 per cent should have residents' agreement. This amendment introduces democratic accountability, something that the Welsh Government has clearly been reluctant to embrace over the years. If a council wants to hike taxes by 5 per cent or more, residents should have a direct say. This is not radical; it is basic respect for people and the funding of local government. England has operated under this expectation for years, yet Wales has been left with a system where families are hit with ever-rising bills while this Labour Government looks the other way.

Llywydd, I'm conscious of the time, so I'll just finish. These additional amendments to the motion offer a coherent, credible alternative to the current drift. They put taxpayers first, strengthen accountability, and demand transparency that has been missing for too long. They challenge the Welsh Government to raise its game on local government finance and to stop expecting councils and residents to pay for their failure to act. I therefore urge Members here to support our amendments, which add strength and accountability to the original motion. Thank you.

I must begin by stating a truth that should chill to the very bone every Member of this Senedd. Local government in Wales is facing its biggest crisis since the second world war. I'm a former leader of Caerphilly council, as you know, for nine years, and I'm sad that the council I proudly led has this year offloaded two museums, is closing 10 libraries and two swimming pools. This very week, 600 staff members they've asked to consider leaving their posts, otherwise compulsory redundancies will inevitably have to follow.

Now, when we talk about a settlement, it implies an agreement, a resolution. Well, what do our councils have before them? It's not a settlement. It's a profound and dangerous shortfall. We're told an extra £169 million has been allocated, but the cold, hard reality is that the figure local authorities generally need to simply maintain services is £560 million. This leaves a canyon of over a third of a billion pounds shortfall in the system. I never dreamed that Wales would have its own grand canyon of debt, and that's what's going to happen.

And what is the consequence of this reckless accountancy? The auditor general, we know, has already issued a stark warning that at least two of our local authorities may be forced to declare a section 114 notice. Look, let's not mince words here. A section 114 notice is the sound of an authority admitting financial collapse, the signal for immediate and brutal cuts to vital statutory services. This is a failure of governance, and it is a terrifying scenario for our communities. Imagine commissioners, commissioners who simply look at balancing books with little or no compassion for the services themselves.

Politicians are here and there to govern, and governing means protecting people. I've only been here a few short weeks and already my inbox is flooded with the human consequences of these decisions. Look first at our duties—statutory duties, in fact—in education. We are battling obscenely escalating costs in this sector, and the first casualties are the most vulnerable. I am receiving complaint after complaint about children with additional learning needs who are not getting the full service they desperately require, all because our schools are struggling with impossible budgets. When we fail to meet our duty of care for our children and their development, let's be clear: we are failing our future.

And look to our most elderly and infirm citizens. Our social services' care is struggling to provide an adequate service. This leaves families struggling to care for their loved ones, trying desperately to maintain the little dignity that some of them have left. This is a moral crisis unfolding in our hospitals and in our homes.

I believe that local government provides many of the key services provided by the public sector in Wales. I agree with the Cabinet Secretary for finance's view that setting a budget that is effectively a roll-over budget is a sensible thing to do in the final year of a Senedd term. And we all know if a budget motion is not passed before 1 April section 127 of the Government of Wales Act 2006 automatically takes place. This will give the Welsh Government and directly-funded bodies authority to spend up to 75 per cent of the limits approved in the previous year. If a budget is still not passed by the end of July, up to 95 per cent of the previous year's limits are deemed authorised. This equates to a 5 per cent cash cut in money terms, as well as no increase for inflation.

As currently suggested, however, a roll-over budget would mean that councils would have to prepare for a combination of very high council tax rates, cuts to services and/or job reductions to avoid significant budget shortfalls, which could harm our local community. A roll-over budget must consider the budgetary pressures on local authorities, and not be a simplistic mathematical exercise.

The Finance Committee have received evidence from witnesses about the differential rate at which inflation makes an impact on their budgets. The Cabinet Secretary said on the floor of the Senedd when introducing the draft budget that he was particularly alert to the special circumstances of local government, because of the legislative constraints they're under in setting their own budgets—more specifically, they have to set the council tax for the next year. It needs to be the inflationary pressures on local government, not the consumer prices index, that generates the increase.

Local government in Wales has many financial pressures outside of its control. I'm going to only mention some of them. Education is a major area of expenditure, and teachers' pay increases need to be met in full. Education is key to moving children out of poverty.

I'm going to discuss three major financial pressures across local government in detail. The estimated pressure across local government services is, as has been said previously, £559 million. Social services alone accounts for 45 per cent of these anticipated pressures for the next year, equating to £106 million additional overspend. The provision of social care is critical to the health and care system operating effectively, and plays a key role in achieving positive health outcomes. Investing in social care leads directly to reducing pressure on the NHS, both in terms of keeping people out of hospital and helping people return to home at the appropriate time, reducing delayed transfers of care. And can I just say? It benefits people as well; it's not just the financial side of it—it's a benefit to people. Wales has an ageing population, and people are living for longer with complex needs and dementia. This will, no doubt, continue to increase pressure on care services. The number of older adults living with severe dementia is predicted to double by 2040.

Thank you for this very important debate on a serious topic. But it's a valuable opportunity for us to share concerns that leaders of local authorities in my region have expressed to me, as have constituents, for many years. Although every local authority in Wales will be hit hard by this proposed settlement, it's likely that rural councils will be hit hardest. We know that the cost of providing public services in rural areas is far greater per head than in urban areas, because of a range of factors, for example, the greater need for services such as schools, libraries, and leisure centres, as compared to urban areas; to provide for the more widespread population and territory; the longer distances that staff have to travel; difficulties in finding people with specialist skills, and a dependence, as a result of that, on agency staff, who cost more; and the higher cost of social care related to an ageing population. And at the same time, the ability to levy council taxes is lower in rural areas, because a higher proportion of the population is pensioners, there are fewer posts that pay the highest wages, and the number of people who are asset rich but cash poor specifically, such as our farmers.

So, the settlement before us today doesn't acknowledge any of this. Almost every county in rural Wales, with a number of them in my region, is receiving the lowest percentage increase possible for their budgets, namely 2.3 per cent—counties such as Anglesey, Conwy, Gwynedd, Pembrokeshire, Ceredigion and Carmarthenshire. And at a time when inflation is at 3.6 per cent, this is a real-terms decrease in their budgets, and all of this following a period of 15 years of cuts by the Conservatives to services. And it means that councils now have to seek further cuts to services and to borrow from their reserves, and I remember how painful that was when I was a member of the Carmarthenshire County Council cabinet. Powys County Council, for example, has warned, even after this increase of 2.3 per cent in their budget, and finding £10 million of savings, that they still face a deficit of £11.8 million, which equates to an increase in council tax of 12 per cent. And as a context, council tax in Powys has already increased on average by 6 per cent every year over the past six years.

But I would like to draw these comments to a conclusion by referring perhaps to education, which is my portfolio area. The Welsh Local Government Association has estimated that a £137 million deficit will be seen in school budgets throughout Wales as a result of this settlement. The NAHT has warned that a number of schools are already considering how to make savings by cutting staff numbers or cutting back on resources. And that's at the exact time when there are greater demands on them to improve standards in schools and to improve provision for those learners who have additional learning needs. At a time when the expenditure on education already has to compete with increased costs for social care, transport and housing, there are understandable concerns that savings will be made at the expense of education as a result of this entirely inadequate budget.

I really look forward to Plaid Cymru coming to the table with a realistic offer to secure a good local government settlement. Local authorities are not only having to secure funds to deliver essential services, but they do, when combined with local health boards, provide 40 per cent of local employment in any given area.

And we've heard stories here today—and they're not stories, they're reality—about non-statutory functions, like libraries, swimming pools, et cetera, coming under huge pressure and disappearing from our communities. And I'll focus on those two things—and I know there are many others—because libraries are the backbone of learning for those people who can't afford access to books themselves, access to computers as well, and also just the whole experience of being part of an education system, and sometimes some of those might not be in school at all. So, you know, their functions are far wider than first thought. I remember the first time I went into a library, and I was overwhelmed that I could actually pick any book—I couldn't believe it—that I wanted to, and take it home and bring it back when I'd read it and take another one. So, we need to instil that learning in young people, and I'm sure they'll be as thrilled as well. Because, as I said, it's not only a hard copy now that is offered.

I certainly won't be taking any lessons from the Tories about reduced budgets. Year after year of austerity and not a peep from them, not a single peep from them to say that it was wrong. And I don't think that any of the voters will be fooled by it either because it's a completely disingenuous argument at this stage of the game.

But councils are challenged, especially rural councils, and I cover a rural area; they are challenged. We know that there's a floor in place, but again I hope that Plaid Cymru, and maybe even the Tories, will come to realise that the settlement does have to be somewhat different. And I've heard the passion that's been expressed here today, and I welcome it. I would have welcomed it last year if you'd voted for the budget too, but you didn't, so—. I just hope that we won't have a repeat of that situation this year.

And it is a fact, because all of those things that we really hold dear—and we really do hold them dear; I've no doubt about people's genuineness there—can't be delivered if we can't get a budget through. And we know that this roll-over budget isn't enough—I would be the first to say that and I have said it elsewhere—so we need to increase it, but we need other people to come with us, and I will welcome what I hope is going to happen and that that will be the case.

Our motion today speaks to a reality that every local authority in Wales understands all too well. The provisional local government settlement as it currently stands is simply not good enough for the challenges our councils face, and nowhere is that more evident than in adult and children's social care. Last month, we debated the vital role that local authorities play in supporting hospital discharges. We acknowledged then that councils, day in, day out, are the glue holding our health and social care system together. But if the crisis therein worsens, then there will be a devastating effect for social care, for families, for unpaid carers, and ultimately for the NHS itself. This isn't just my warning. Councillor Andrew Morgan, the WLGA Labour group leader said it plainly:

'Social care, homelessness, education and workforce costs continue to rise faster than resources can keep up. Councils will still need to make tough choices, and that remains a concern.'

Let's be frank here. The political language is 'tough choices', but everyone in this Chamber knows that this is a euphemism for cuts and rising council tax bills. It means lay-offs, and it means greater pressure on the very services that we claim to value.

We can't ignore the scale of the financial pressures: 36 per cent of the total pressure facing local authorities comes directly from social care. Social care alone is expected to account for nearly 40 per cent of overspending by Welsh councils—nearly £70 million. When nearly 40 per cent of all financial strain is coming from one sector, it should be absolutely clear that an inadequate settlement will have a profound effect on the ability of local authorities to keep people safe, well and supported.

We can't bury our heads in the sand. The pressures are immense. Out of a population of a little over 3 million people, more than 0.5 million are unpaid carers looking after loved ones, saving the nation over £10 billion a year, yet only 6 per cent received a needs assessment in 2024. Imagine relying on a system so stretched that even identifying your needs becomes a luxury. At the same time, the paid social care workforce endures low pay, poor working conditions and high turnover, with over 5,300 vacancies.

But it doesn't stop with local authority-run services: councils also commission essential external bodies to deliver front-line support, organisations that are now under serious threat. Take Anheddau, which has been providing vital support for independent living for people with learning disabilities for 35 years. They are entirely funded through local government commissioning, and yet the financial strain on them has already led to job losses, frozen posts and growing vacancies. They were hit incredibly hard by the UK Labour Government's national insurance hike: nearly £1 million in additional payroll costs. And while they've refused to compromise on training because providing skilled, safe, high-quality support is non-negotiable, they are being punished for that commitment.

The Cabinet Secretary to contribute—Mark Drakeford.

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. I want to begin my contribution this afternoon just with one sentence, to place the provisional local government settlement in the context of this term. In three of the last four years, local authorities in Wales have seen their budgets increase by 4.5 per cent, 7.9 per cent, and 9.4 per cent. Now, I don't think those significant uplifts in annual funding are surprising because, in so many ways, the history of devolution has been shaped by this Parliament's local government heritage.

In term after term, Senedd Members have been drawn, in large numbers, from those who cut their political teeth in local authorities. Those of us who remember the first Assembly term recall the influence of local authority leaders here in this Chamber. Pauline Jarman, Tom Middlehurst and Sue Essex—one of the most influential figures of her time—as well as so many others: Mike German, Jenny Randerson, Peter Black, Rosemary Butler, Jane Hutt, Jane Davidson. The history of devolution and this Senedd has been shaped by people whose political careers began in local government and brought all of that to our debates.

I don't have time to cover each of the intervening Senedd terms, but if we fast forward to this Chamber and this term, we again benefit from the contributions from previously senior members of local authorities. It's the first time I think that there has been a leader in every single group here from a local authority: Sam Rowlands and Peter Fox, Mike Hedges, Lindsay Whittle and other leading figures, including Siân Gwenllian, Carolyn Thomas and Cefin Campbell.

The point of this preamble, Llywydd, is to demonstrate the weight of influence that local government experience has always brought to bear on our proceedings. A cumulative experience that lies at the heart of the very different ways in which local authorities have fared here in Wales compared to across our border in England in the devolution era.

Llywydd, I'm not going to be able to respond to all the Members who have contributed to this debate. Joel James started by saying that things were totally disconnected from the daily realities, before going on, I thought, to demonstrate the proposition from which he began.

Mike Hedges pointed to the complexity of the local government settlement and the number of factors that you have to take into account. And while the Government has placed our own amendment to today's debate, I recognise at the outset, as Joyce Watson did in her contribution, the shared ambition across this Chamber to support our local authorities, even when we have different recipes for turning that ambition into practical action.

Heledd Fychan to reply to the debate.

Thank you, Llywydd, and thank you to everyone who has contributed to today's debate.

I really welcome the approach everyone has taken to today's debate. I hope local authority leaders and those working in local authorities across Wales feel reassured today that we are listening, that we understand their concerns, but also how grateful we are for the work that they do day in, day out, and the vital services they provide. I know many of those have been listed today, but there are countless others as well. We have heard of both statutory and non-statutory.

In my own area, I know when we have faced—too many times to count—flooding, it has been local authority workers on the ground providing that support, making a difference. We know that it's hugely challenging at the moment with what we're seeing with climate change and what they have to face. I really do want to thank everyone that works in our local authorities, in our schools and all services that are associated.

Mabon, you mentioned commissioned services, and I think it is important that we acknowledge today the impact the national insurance hike had on them directly. I don't think we'll fully know the picture until the next financial year. It was a concern in last week's budget that the Chancellor didn't take the opportunity to really reconsider, because this is impacting not just here in Wales, but also in England. That's been clear as well. But these commissioned services are really vital. So I hope we can find a way to ensure that they can continue as well.

The one thing I do want to reflect on, though, is that in the draft budget when it was presented, the Cabinet Secretary for finance had said that it would provide stability and certainty for our public services and for our constituents. But as it stands, it does not provide that stability and certainty. Lindsay, in your contribution, I think it was very powerful what you said about those consultations—600 jobs just in Caerphilly. And we've heard the warnings, haven't we? Thousands of jobs potentially at risk across Wales. I know, because of the years that we've seen of austerity, the impact it's had on staff to face constant uncertainty, the number of job losses we've seen. Sickness levels are really high in a number of our local authorities, in our schools, and that's because there's been such a squeeze on funding. This will add to the strain again. So, I do think that we need to find a way to give that certainty to our local authorities and to the services that they provide, because it is a time of uncertainty for staff and they are delivering these vital services, but they need that certainty as well.

Cefin, I think you were right, and Joyce as well, in terms of the impact on our rural areas and why this settlement isn’t fair in taking into account currently the strain on rural communities. I’m sure all of us are inundated by issues that relate to cuts that have been made to local authorities. In my own area, there's the Save the School Transport RCT campaign in terms of the changes that haven’t been made in terms of the Learner Travel (Wales) Measure 2008. Those are the things that really matter to people. Also our libraries, our museums, our swimming pools—all the things that are really vital. You outlined, Joyce, the importance of libraries, but in terms of the museums, in terms of swimming pools as well. Prevention is something that we talk a lot about here. If people cannot access arts or sports opportunities, then how are we going to progress in terms of the prevention agenda?

Will you take an intervention?

I will take an intervention, yes.

Thank you for that. I've been reading the motion again and I've been listening to everything that's been said, but you haven't actually outlined what you'd do. Our amendments outline some of the issues that we would take forward to try to address the budget issues, but you haven't, on your side, said anything, really, other than complain, I think. Is there anything that you would highlight that you would do differently? Thank you.

I think that it's very clear there that a settlement that works for local authorities, that takes into account the calls of the WLGA—. We don't agree with, as we've mentioned before, some elements in your amendment, because of the constraints in terms of a referendum and so on. We've had those debates before. But if you think that you have solutions here, then I'm afraid that you're incorrect on those. [Interruption.] Mike.

As you know, when I was speaking, I said that I thought that local government needed a 5 per cent increase to stand still. Is your calculation higher or lower than that?

Why did you not intervene on the Cabinet Secretary for finance in terms of that? I think that he could provide a better settlement but chose not to, so let's be clear here.

We have found today unity in terms of seeking a way forward. I think that everyone has been very clear that a budget has to pass. We've also heard very clearly across the political parties that the budget as it stands is not adequate for local authorities and for our local services, so we need to find a way forward. I hope that that message has been heard today by our local authority partners. It's now up to us to take a grown-up approach to this budget and ensure that we do provide that stability for local services.

It's imperative for all of us, collectively, to ensure that local authorities are given better support for communities, council workers and residents. The increasing financial pressure is really difficult, and it is our most vulnerable residents that will suffer. So, I hope that we can agree together on Plaid Cymru's motion as tabled and, more than anything, that we can find a way forward to invest in our vital public services and provide the much-needed stability and certainty that they desperately need.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections. We will therefore defer voting under this item until voting time.

That brings us to voting time. Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, we will proceed directly to our first vote.

The first vote is on item 7, the Plaid Cymru debate on the provisional local government settlement. The first vote is on the motion, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 12, no abstentions, 31 against. The motion is not agreed.

We will proceed to amendment 1. I call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt. Open the vote. Close the vote. The vote is tied, and so I will exercise my casting vote against the amendment. The amendment is not agreed, with 22 in favour, 23 against, and no abstentions.

The next vote is on amendment 2, tabled in the name of Paul Davies. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 10, no abstentions, 34 against. That amendment also falls.

So, both the motion and the amendments have not been agreed and nothing is therefore agreed.

That brings voting to an end and brings our proceedings to a close.