Plenary

The next item will be the questions to the Counsel General and the Minister for Delivery. The first question is—. The first question is from Mick Antoniw.

Access to justice is fundamental to the rule of law, and is, of course, largely a reserved area. Multiple, urgent issues all need to be addressed. I am sure that the recent announcement of implementation of legal aid fee increases in both criminal and civil matters will be particularly welcomed.

Thank you for your answer. Under the Tories over the past 14 years, the justice system has been undermined and underfunded. Courts have not been repaired, courts have closed and the Tories shut half of our magistrates' courts, undermining the delivery of justice. A consequence of this is that there is less time and fewer court facilities available for hearings, and backlogs have reached crisis levels in the English courts. The situation in Wales, because of our greater Welsh judicial connectivity, has been exemplary and the situation is manageable but still under stress. One proposal from the Lord Chancellor is to restrict jury trials. I think this is the wrong way to go and will not solve the growing backlog problem. Jury trials have been a cornerstone of our justice system. Juries are a check and balance on judges, as well as a protection for the independence of the judiciary, and they give ownership of part of the judicial system into the hands of the people, so we restrict them at our peril. So, can I ask you, therefore, for your assurance that, despite this not being a fully devolved responsibility, access to justice is something that we do have the right to be concerned about and that you will do all you can to press for investment in our court infrastructure and to continue to put the case for the devolution of justice?

Diolch, Mick. I completely agree. In Wales, backlogs in the Crown Court have usually been much less than for England, and there are currently no backlogs in the magistrates' courts at all in Wales. So, while we do want trials to be resolved more quickly, of course, there is an important balance to be struck with protecting the safeguards for those accused of crimes, who may, indeed, be innocent. So, we will be engaging with the Ministry of Justice as they work through their plans for taking forward these recommendations. In fact, I'm chairing the Inter-ministerial Group for Justice later this week, and I will be raising this. A number of stakeholders have commented on the week's announcements, of course, but I personally am particularly concerned about the proposals to limit the rights of appeal from magistrates' courts to points of law only at the same time as increasing magistrates' sentencing powers. So, there are a number of things in the system that we will be raising at the IMG and more generally, because, although it is a reserved matter, of course it directly impacts on a number of things that are devolved.

Since 2022, Wales has successfully launched legal apprenticeships for paralegals and advanced paralegals, with growing demand from employers and learners as these pathways become more established. Work continues with Medr and the legal sector to expand opportunities, though budget limitations can restrict the scale of what we can deliver.

Diolch yn fawr, Cwnsler Cyffredinol. It's great that you can become a paralegal through an apprenticeship; it's a real shame that you cannot become a lawyer or a solicitor on the same route. In fact, there are no equivalent Master's degrees in apprenticeships available in Wales. Now, I know, Cwnsler Cyffredinol, that you, in the past, have spoken quite a bit about seeing people move up through the legal executive route. I know that you feel strongly about this, and you are aware, of course, of the social mobility benefits and the benefits to access to justice of routes like legal executives and apprenticeships.

Now, the recent committee report on apprenticeships highlighted that there is still a stigma attached to taking an apprenticeship. Now, I believe that offering apprenticeships that would lead to somebody becoming a lawyer would tackle this misconceived idea, and the legal sector in Wales would benefit through a level 7 apprenticeship. We talk time and time again here about legal aid deserts, retention issues within rural and post-industrial communities. Legal apprenticeships to a solicitor level will help alleviate all these problems. So, when can we expect progress from the Welsh Government with regard to this? Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you very much, Rhys. I completely agree with everything that you said there. You'll have heard me speak on a number of occasions about the need to ensure that people can take an interest in the law, perhaps, just from working in a legal office, decide, where they never would have before, that this is for them, and then be able to work their way all the way through. And that embeds people in their local community as well, so it's an excellent way of doing it. And, indeed, some of the changes to the way that you qualify have helped that process.

So, I'm really pleased about the paralegal courses that we are embedding, and I'll just take a small moment to plug other courses that are useful to solicitors' offices as well—you've heard me do that before—because I do think the legal profession is sometimes slow to come forward for things like business management and so on, that they also could take advantage of.

But I have asked the officials to work with Medr and the legal sector to consider how we can build on the paralegal apprenticeship framework, to provide a more diverse and socially mobile legal sector, with a workforce much more representative of Welsh society in general. We've committed to an ongoing review and improvement of those apprenticeship pathways. The new apprenticeship programme is currently due to start in August 2027, and that will hopefully strengthen alignment between apprenticeships at all levels, and ensure clear progression routes and value for money as we go along.

The degree apprenticeships position, we're looking at, but we're looking closely at what's happening in England, because although they introduced it, they're currently making some changes. And my understanding is that those changes are a result of various developments that have happened as they rolled those apprenticeships out. So, we'll be looking carefully at those as well.

But I'm very keen to do this. I'm also very keen—as you know, because we've discussed it—that we do this to increase the number of people who would become qualified, and not help large firms who would otherwise have paid for them to do it. So, we'll have to find a way to make sure that this is accessed by small and medium-sized firms, who probably couldn't otherwise afford it, and not by the big firms that would have been taking people anyway. I've discussed that with the profession as a whole, and with the Law Society as well, and we've been working together on trying to get that framework in place.

So, at the moment, we're just entrenching, if you like, the paralegal system, looking at how we can expand it out, and then we're just considering developments in England, where, from January next year, they're going to restrict public funding for level 7 solicitor apprenticeships to new starters aged 21 and under. I personally think that's a shame, because what we're looking at as well are second-chance people. But we'll be monitoring those developments closely.

The Conservative spokesperson, Natasha Asghar, next.

Thank you so much, Presiding Officer. Counsel General, should the Senedd Cymru (Member Accountability and Elections) Bill include political manifestos?

Sorry, Natasha, I just didn't catch that.

Oh no, that's okay. Should the Senedd Members accountability and elections Bill include political manifestos?

I don't really understand the question, but, no, I don't think it's a matter for political manifestos. The accountability Bill is designed to give the Commission powers to consider whether or not the Commission itself would like to extend the standards code of conduct regime, and to entrench some of it in statutory provisions and so on. It's not a matter for political manifestos, in my opinion. That's my personal opinion.

Okay. Thank you for your response, Counsel General, because I was interested to hear your thoughts on the political parties' manifestos coming within the remit of the Member accountability and elections Bill, as I do believe that this would put the Labour Government, perhaps, in a little bit of a tricky situation.

In Welsh Labour's 2021 manifesto, you promised 125,000 new apprenticeships, 20,000 new low-carbon social homes for rent, and a commitment to recover and raise standards for young people, with a major schools catch-up plan. Yet, Counsel General, here we are, roughly four months away from dissolution, and we're nowhere near hitting the apprenticeship target. And you're set to miss the 20,000 new low-carbon social homes for rent by 2026 target, and Wales has been the worst performing nation in education every time that we've been assessed on every subject since the dawn of devolution.

So, whilst this Welsh Labour Government is keen to perhaps bring about the Member accountability Bill, I wonder how accountable you'd be willing to be, when it's actually held to account under law, for your continuous ability to over-promise and under deliver.

Well, I think you've desperately tried to shoehorn something into a Bill that isn't there, and nobody thinks it should be. I would say, Natasha, that you really seriously ought to get a subscription out to the Office for National Statistics, because what you've just said we're failing on is not borne out by the statistics that have just been released. So, we've clearly managed to do the 20,000 social homes for rent. It's true that it will take us another three months after the end of the Senedd term, but, given that your party, and I think you personally, supported Liz Truss, and that caused us—

Actually, I did not.

Okay, apologies—apologies. Apologies. Apologies. If you didn't personally, I apologise for having said that. But the party certainly did. And I have to tell you that, as a result of that budget, we used to be able to buy six to seven houses for £1 million in Wales, on social housing grants, and afterwards we could buy three to four. And, despite that, we've managed to make that target. So, I don't know where you're getting your stats from, but I seriously suggest you have a look at the ONS.

Okay. Thank you very much. I appreciate you may not like what I've just said, Counsel General, and I cannot deny—

Because it's not true.

I do believe it is true. But we have two Labour Governments—. From where I'm standing, we have two Labour Governments, either side of the M4, both missing targets or, quite frankly, spinning stories to the Welsh public. The most used tagline of last year's election—the one that we've all heard again and again—was, 'We won't raise taxes on working people.' It's turned out to be the UK Labour Government's key policy and perhaps only significant achievement during their time in Government so far. And for the Government supposedly based on fairness, I wonder how fair it feels for our Welsh working population, who get up every day and go to work day in, day out, to know that they will yet again contribute more of their hard-earned money towards a UK Cabinet who've already proven to have dodged taxes themselves. The people of Wales deserve better, Cabinet Secretary, at both the UK and the Welsh Government level, to know that, when a pledge and promise is made, it will be a pledge that's going to be kept in the long term.

So, I want to ask you, Counsel General: what is the point of calling for greater accountability and scrutiny if the words used in your own manifesto do not reflect the achievements accomplished after 26 years? Thank you.

Well, I don't even quite know where to start with that.

That was it. It was a simple question.

First off, tax policy is not part of my policy portfolio. Secondly, you belong to a party that has raised taxes more than any other party in the history of British Government. Thirdly, we have absolutely delivered the vast majority of the programme for government, and I'm due to bring a statement to the Senedd to that effect already. And, fourthly, most of the statistics you just quoted at me are either old or wrong.

The Plaid Cymru spokesperson next, Adam Price.

Diolch, Llywydd. As we heard in the earlier exchanges, Counsel General, 11 of your colleagues, including your immediate predecessor in your own current role, wrote to the UK Prime Minister, accusing the UK Government of rolling back the devolution settlement. Could you say whether you share that assessment as the Government's chief legal adviser, who has an overview of the UK legislative programme in relation to Wales? In particular, what is your view of one of the key points that they make in relation to the Pride in Place programme, which they give as the latest example, really, of the UK Government overriding or undermining our devolution powers, in this case using the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020 to do so?

Well, I don't approve of the UK internal market Act. I've said so very often in ministerial groups. I will probably be saying it again when I meet with the—well, I'm chairing the inter-ministerial group this particular cycle, and it's this Thursday, I believe. Sorry, I can never remember my own timetable for more than two days in advance, but it's very soon anyway, and I'm chairing it. So, we will be raising it.

I'll also be raising the proposed changes to the criminal justice system, because although that isn't devolved, it does have an impact on services here. I will be raising the fact that we think that the civil justice courts in Wales are particularly underfunded. I've been working for some time with judges in Wales to improve the civil justice centre in Cardiff, for example. I don't know if you've been there, but it's really not up to scratch at all. So, we do often work in that way, across, if you like, the ragged edge of devolution, because it's not always immediately obvious what impacts on what.

So, criminal justice is not devolved; I think it should be, and we'd like to work towards that. But whilst it isn't devolved, quite a lot of the things that happen as a result of criminal justice are devolved. So, what happens in the system directly impacts on, for example, mental health, or social services, or housing, or whatever. So, it's important to us that that works effectively. Anyway, I think that, as parliamentarians, all of us care about the rule of law. I care very much about the rule of law, and I don't want to see that diluted. I want very much to understand that, if people are accused in a court of law in Britain, they are innocent until proven guilty, and not assumed to be in the justice system because they've done something. So, I don't approve of that. When I was a very junior barrister, I used to work in the criminal justice system, and there's nothing worse than seeing somebody innocent caught up in that system. It makes you really think about it.

In terms of the question about do I agree about the Pride in Place thing, yes, I do agree, and the First Minister's just made it very clear that she agrees too. We've had a number of discussions about that. I personally haven't had those discussions, because it's not in my portfolio, but a number of other Cabinet colleagues have, and we've discussed it in Cabinet. I'm very pleased, however, that we have got the local growth fund devolved to Wales in the way that it's been devolved. That's a major step forward. Although, just to be really clear, we don't think that that money should ever have been—. The UKIMA power should never have been used to fund that. We've made that position clear time and time again. I'm sorry, I should also say, Adam, I'm sure you're aware of this, but during the UKIMA review we very forcibly said that the financial assistance power should be repealed.

Indeed, and thanks for placing that on the record again. The letter did say that, if Pride in Place had been introduced by a Conservative Government, Welsh Ministers would be calling for a judicial review, as the Welsh Government has done in other similar circumstances. Are you scoping out that possibility? If the discussions that you refer to do not bear fruit, is this an option that you are considering? At the very least, are you asking for some further advice about the possibility of building a judicial review? Because there is an important principle at stake here.

'No, I'm not', is the answer to that, because I think at the moment we're having a very constructive discussion with them. I'm very pleased about the way the local growth fund has worked out. We're very pleased at the way that that's been dealt with for Wales, so I don't think that would be particularly helpful at the moment. There are a number of other things we're currently discussing with them as well. Actually, I'm not sure that that would be the hill I chose to die on. The very simple answer to your question is, 'No, we aren't looking at that at the moment.' Can I say, that's not because it's a Labour Government or a Conservative Government? I don't think that makes any difference. It's the principle of the thing that matters. So, we're very pleased with where we've got to on the local growth fund.

Can I just raise with you an entirely different matter? The sponsors of the Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill in Westminster are here today, briefing Senedd Members. I met with them earlier. They said that they are clearly of the view that, if the legislative consent motion—which I understand the Business Committee has discussed, and it will be brought forward in January—falls here, that they will then take reference to Wales out of the Bill completely. The effect of that would be that assisted dying would be legal in Wales, but it couldn't be provided by the NHS. It would only be provided by private services. Is that a satisfactory response, in your view? Given your responsibility in relation to UK legislation and its effect on Wales, wouldn't a better response be, if the LCM was to fall—I realise it's hypothetical—for there to be discussion then to amend the Bill to reflect the concerns that would have been shared during the debate, rather than simply taking it out, and almost a 'take it or leave it' scenario?

I've been in discussion with the policy portfolio Minister on this, obviously, because a lot of what will or won't be contained in the LCM will be about what policies the Welsh Government would seek to look for. That's regardless of whether you agree with assisted dying or not, can I say? This is a technical legal discussion. This is not about the principle of assisted dying. I think, when the LCM comes in front of the Senedd, it will be important to make sure that Members understand that we're not talking about whether or not the Bill will pass in Great Britain; we're talking about the effect of its passing on Wales and the services that would be available.

The policy decisions on that are a matter for my friend the Cabinet Secretary for health, but he and I have been in discussion about the constitutional arrangements that will flow from that, including, as you say, what would happen if the LCM fell here. The Bill is in transit. I wasn't able to attend their session, and I'm really sorry for that, because I had wanted to. I wasn't able to. The Bill is, as you know, going through its passage at the moment. It's actually changing quite a bit as it goes through. We may have to do a number of supplementary LCMs as well, so we're not quite sure where we are with that. The Business Committee, as I understand it, was discussing the circumstances in which additional LCMs might come forward and so on. So, that's something that's under active discussion.

When the Bill is at a point where we feel Members could take a view on the constitutional significance of that, then that LCM will be brought forward and we'll be able to have that discussion. Then, depending on the point of view taken—not just the actual vote, but the discussion, if you like, that ensues—I think you're right, Adam, another conversation will have to happen. And that's partly—. The difficulty of LCMs is always trying to time them so that the Senedd vote has an effect on the passage of the Bill through Westminster: not so late that all we can do is say 'yes' or 'no' and it falls; not so early that you can't really have an impact, because you don't really know the shape of it. So, it's a difficult balancing act. The Trefnydd, I and the Cabinet Secretary for health have been having a conversation about the timing and constitutional significance of that, because I think you're right that, if it was just removed, we'd have a situation where private providers could provide the service in Wales, but we'd effectively have stopped there being any public service, and we will all have a personal view on that. I'm not going to express my own personal view on that, but I think that would be the effect of it, yes.

And finally, Rhys ab Owen.

I'm meeting UK Government Ministers, including at this week’s Inter-ministerial Group for Justice, when I will be discussing points related to their recent response to the recommendations made by part 1 of the independent review of criminal courts.

Diolch yn fawr, Cwnsler Cyffredinol. Jury trials are a fundamental part of the democratic settlement. 'Criminal trials without juries are a bad idea'—Cwnsler Cyffredinol, there is always that one tweet, isn't there? But those aren't my words; that was a tweet written by David Lammy, back in 2020. I was very pleased to hear your answer to Mick earlier on, pleased that you mentioned the difference between the backlogs here and the backlogs in England, because the figures are skewed by the huge backlogs in the large urban cities in England.

Thank you also for your comments about appeals from magistrates' courts to the Crown Court. You, like I, when we were junior criminal barristers, would remember on a regular basis successful appeals from the magistrates' court. We would also remember some baffling decisions made by magistrates in the magistrates' court. Truth is, if this was a proposal by a Conservative government, there would be outrage in this place. Karl Turner, a Labour MP, and, like us, once a criminal lawyer, recently tweeted that this is

'the daftest idea any Lord Chancellor of any government, of any political persuasion, could have ever mustered.'

Do you agree with Karl Turner?

Well, I agree that there are serious questions to be asked about the UK Government's proposals made in response to part 1 of the review. I also agree the right to trial by jury is a hugely important protection for defendants—I absolutely do. Victims need to be assured that justice is delivered effectively, but in an unbiased way, and that the punishment fits the crime. Trial delays, we all know, impact both victims and defendants, as well as witnesses, and it's absolutely right to look at ways of speeding up that process. But, as I said in answer to my colleague Mick Antoniw, in Wales there are no significant delays of concern across the magistrates' courts, and Crown Court performance in Wales is consistently considered one of the best performing, with trials currently being listed into 2026 and early 2027, compared to London, where some listings are well into 2030. So, you can see that there's a substantive difference there, and that is because we are smaller, we're much more in touch with our judiciary and we're much more able to have conversations.

We need to seriously consider whether these proposals get the balance right for everyone concerned—it's about the victims, it's also about the defendants, it's about the witnesses and everyone else—including whether the changes divert investment away from securing a fully functional, accessible and staffed court estate, because we want to see that, and I've been working very hard indeed on trying to get both civil and criminal justice into a better place. Civil justice also matters. It's not that the same level of seriousness perhaps for individual liberty, but it also matters in access to law. So, I'm chairing, as I've said a number of times now, the Inter-Ministerial Group for Justice later this week. This is on the agenda to be discussed, and I'm looking forward very much to that discussion. These are proposals at the moment; there's a long way before they become law. We will be making our feelings known on it. I am disappointed that there wasn't a degree of consultation before the announcements, but there's still time, as the legislation develops, to have our say.

I thank the Counsel General.

Item 3 is next, the business statement and announcement. I call on the Trefnydd, Jane Hutt.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. There are no changes to this week's business, and business for the next three weeks is shown on the business statement, which is available to Members electronically.

Trefnydd, I'd be grateful if we could have a statement from the Welsh Government regarding its oversight of Dŵr Cymru. There is a housing estate in Boncath, in my constituency, which has long-standing sewage capacity issues. Following periods of heavy rainfall, sewage can actually back up through the pipes and into people's homes. As a result, homes are damaged and residents are left without water and unable to use facilities, sometimes for days on end. Now, Trefnydd, residents have complained that it's like living in a third-world country and it's just not right that, in 2025, some people are unable to use a toilet or a shower in their own home because of bad weather. Now, of course, I've raised this with Dŵr Cymru, and yet still the problems exist. Therefore, I'd be grateful if we could have a statement from the Welsh Government, given that it sets the legislative and regulatory framework within which water companies operate so that Members can question the Cabinet Secretary on specific issues in their constituencies and regions and understand what the Welsh Government is doing to help deliver solutions and also what it's doing to hold water companies to account.

Thank you very much, Paul Davies. It is important that we look to our powers in terms of oversight of water companies. Regarding Dŵr Cymru, you have given a very concerning report about the impact on a community that you represent. So, I certainly will be raising this with the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs to see what would be the most appropriate way to address these issues.

Trefnydd, whilst I'm asking you this question, there are 16 flood warnings and 58 'be prepared' flood warnings on the NRW website, meaning that there are thousands of people the length and breadth of Wales concerned as to what that means for them. In my own region, this is the sixth warning since the beginning of November, and people are extremely concerned. So, I would like to ask for a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for climate change in order to get assurances that NRW does have the resources to deal with this, because this is happening far more often than expected, and also to understand what support is available to people who are facing the ongoing anxiety of thinking that they will be flooded. Clearly, it's having an impact on businesses not being able to open, and so on, and also people not being able to go to work, fearing the implications if they're not at home when the floods hit.

Thank you very much for your very important question.

I'm grateful that you've raised this, in terms of the impact not just of storm Bram as people are living through this now, and I'll address that, but also recent flood events, the support provided and the follow-up. So, just for the record today, as I speak, storm Bram has brought a wet 12-18 hours across Wales. As of 11 o'clock this morning, we've seen 82 mm of rainfall in Treherbert in the Rhondda, 71 mm in Nant yr Ysfa in Cynon Valley, and 71 mm in Bannau Brycheiniog. Of course, this weather is expected to clear. NRW and local authorities have stepped up their operational arrangements, staff are in place to respond to incidents, and the Welsh Government has activated its level 1 response arrangements. They were activated yesterday, in fact, to provide strategic support for the multi-agency response, to co-ordinate departmental input where needed. We continue to monitor events as they unfold, and are liaising also with local resilience fora, risk management authorities, just to look at all of the impacts associated with storm Bram, local authorities and NRW, but also, I'd say, front-line organisations, people, communities and the third sector, and we'll understand the impacts better in the next 24-48 hours.

I would also like to take the opportunity to say that, in terms of recent flood events, we've invited emergency capital funding applications from local authorities to repair flood risk management infrastructure damaged during the poor weather in the first half of November. Applications are being appraised and local authorities will be informed shortly. In the aftermath of storm Claudia, through the council—Monmouthshire—the Welsh Government has provided grants of up to £3,000 for businesses impacted in Monmouthshire, and there's wider business support through the British Insurance Brokers Association commercial scheme, and the emergency financial assistance scheme is a discretionary fund. Dirprwy Lywydd, I do feel that it was important to give that wider information today. Diolch.

Trefnydd, I'd like to ask for two statements. First of all, I wondered if we could have a statement from the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs on the way in which the Farming Connect contract for the next three years is being procured. My particular concerns are that the current contract only funds eight full-time equivalent staff, which is insufficient to meet demand, never mind need. I know other stakeholders are concerned about how and whether the procurement document properly reflects the aspirations to make a successful sustainable farming scheme, rather than business as usual. So, I hope this statement can make clear the way in which this is being procured, not through Sell2Wales, but through a dynamic purchasing scheme run by rural affairs, which is closed to public scrutiny. I struggle to see how that is aligned with the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Act 2023.

You don't have time to ask for a second statement. You've used your time.

Thank you very much, Jenny Rathbone, for your question. As of 27 November, 49 suppliers were on the framework, all eligible to tender for the upcoming Farming Connect contract. Just to clarify, unlike a standard framework, the DPS is open for application throughout the life of the DPS, and it provides a flexible framework to deliver the specialist services required by the Welsh Government. It's not a closed process. All service requirements must be tendered via call-of competitions, and the procurement of the future Farming Connect offering is one such call-off competition. But, of course, this will come to the attention of the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for climate change in terms of clarifying this further, if necessary.

I would like a statement, please, from the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care on waiting times for general surgery within the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board. I met a constituent who has been waiting for a gallstone operation for two years, despite her referral for surgery being expedited several times. I think we can all agree that this is an unacceptable time to wait for surgery, and this has a significant impact on her life and employment. Despite being happy to have her surgery outsourced or conducted at a hospital in England, given Glan Clwyd Hospital doesn't have the capacity, the current absence of waiting time data from the health board has added to my constituent's concern. Many of us would like to know what specific measures are currently being employed by Betsi to bring down general surgery waiting times, including the use of outsourcing and insourcing, to allay any concerns from patients that outsourcing means they are taken off the ordinary waiting list. I'd also appreciate some clarity as to how data is recorded when surgeries are transferred to other hospitals. So, can we have a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care, providing an update on attempts to bring down general surgery waiting times, so more people aren't placed in the same situation as my constituent, and—

Thank you, Gareth.

—when will the publication of waiting time date resume?

Thank you. I know you will, and your constituents, and wider than your constituency, will welcome the investment and the management of our waiting list, to bring those waiting times down by securing that resource and that clinical care within our health service, and also sourcing it from every possible avenue of excellence. So, yes, this is something that I know you'll be able to question the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care on in terms of his updates and opportunities, but also, of course, he has agreed to come back in terms of the final resolution of the waiting list corrections that we have to bring forward as a result of Betsi Cadwaladr's review.

I'd request an urgent statement, please, from the Government about Ffos-y-fran. Ffos-y-fran is an open wound on the mountains above Merthyr. Two years after mining finally stopped at the site, we still don't know what will happen to the land. Three new coal tips have been created by the mess left by the mining company—tips that could become destabilised. A geotechnical report prepared for the council warns of these risks. The mining company is currently proposing to undertake what can only be described as a botched restoration job—a supposed restoration that would leave coal tips at the site with those risks, as well as a gaping chasm in the ground that at different times of the year will fill with dirty water. This is not what the residents of Merthyr were promised. Surely, a company that has reportedly made millions from this coal cannot be allowed to so short-change the community. I and others have called for the Government to intervene urgently, so could we have a statement, please, setting out what the Welsh Government proposes to do?

Thank you, Delyth, and thanks for your question.

The Welsh Government continues to closely monitor the situation with Ffos-y-fran. Our priority remains ensuring the safety of the local community and protecting the environment. We're in regular contact with the local authority and a range of public sector partners. We've been clear that the safeguarding and restoration of the site remains our objective, alongside our wish to see full restoration in line with planning permission. The operator has submitted an application for a revised restoration scheme for the site. Responsibility for determining the application currently lies with Merthyr Tydfil County Borough Council, and that remains under active consideration for call-in by the Welsh Ministers. A decision will be issued in due course.

I would like to ask for two Government statements. The first is a statement addressing the considerable gap in management and leadership apprenticeship provision in Wales. If we want to increase productivity in the Welsh economy, we need to improve management and leadership skills. Evidence shows that management and leadership apprenticeships are effective, with individuals getting an average pay rise of over £12,000 per year. It also helps create an average boost to a firm’s revenue of over £20,000 per apprentice per year, and productivity improves across the whole economy.

The second statement I request is on opencast and its effect on communities. When the leader of Reform visited Port Talbot, he supported the opening of mines in Wales. We've not had a deep mine sunk since Betws in 1978, so mining for coal at scale means opencast. The statement should include the effect that opencast has had on communities in south Wales, similar to what Delyth Jewell has just asked for.

Diolch yn fawr, Mike Hedges. In terms of apprenticeship provision, the most recent UK employer skills survey shows that, when looking at types of specific skills that UK employers report as missing among their workforce, management and leadership skills were lacking in around half of skills gaps. But employers in Wales were least affected by skills gaps due to those skills, compared with 51 per cent in Northern Ireland, 50 per cent in Scotland and 49 per cent in England, because we are investing in our flexible skills programme, supporting businesses to upskill their workforce.

I'd say, importantly, funding for the flexible skills programme has been increased from £1.3 million in 2024-25 to £7.53 million for 2025-26. We're investing heavily in the apprenticeship programme for Wales. Indeed, since 2021, funding for apprenticeships has increased, despite the loss of significant European funding. The draft budget for next year proposes a further increase in funding for apprenticeships of £2.3 million, taking the total value of the programme to over £146 million. There was an interesting earlier question, and I would say in response, to update colleagues across the Chamber, that we're confident of achieving our programme for government goal of creating 100,000 new apprenticeship opportunities during this Senedd term, which I hope put the record straight on our programme for government.

It is important you've raised this issue about the impact our mining legacy has on communities, including opencast sites, following on from Delyth Jewell's question as well. Our priority does remain ensuring the safety of communities and protecting the environment.

Trefnydd, I wish to raise a matter brought to me by a constituent, Alfie Probert, an issue that is as distressing as it is unacceptable. Alfie's brother Robert, who has just turned 51, is profoundly disabled. He cannot speak and is entirely dependent on his 80-year-old mother for all aspects of his care. Two years ago, he began experiencing severe dental pain. At the time, he weighed 16 stone. Today, he is sadly wasting away because he cannot eat properly, and the reason is stark. He has been left on a dental waiting list for two years, during which his health has steadily deteriorated. Only last week, the family had to spend £200 on taxi fares simply to get him to an appointment for assessment, not treatment. Meanwhile, his mother, who is coping with her own health problems, is at breaking point. Dirprwy Lywydd, this situation, as I said, is unacceptable. It raises serious concerns about access to urgent dental care for people with complex needs, and about the support available to elderly carers who are being pushed beyond their limits. May I request an urgent statement from the Cabinet Secretary for health setting out what action he intends to take on this deeply concerning case? This failing Welsh Government is letting people like Robert down.

Can I thank the Member for that question? You have raised very distressing circumstances facing your constituent in terms of access to dental services and the wider issues in terms of carers' engagement and access to those dental services. So, that is on the record. I'm sure you have already raised this, because it is important you put this in writing for the health board. But this is clearly something that the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care will be concerned to learn about today.

Trefnydd, I'd like to ask for a written statement from the Cabinet Secretary for transport on the operation of the blue badge scheme. A constituent of mine submitted an application over a year ago to Swansea Council, but because of the complexity of their circumstances, the local authority then issued several forms to enable the application to be referred to the Welsh Government's independent assessor, at the time Able2. None of that paperwork was returned, as Able2 ceased operating at short notice in March of last year.

We are now told that there's a new provider that has been procured by the Welsh Government, but local authorities are still awaiting confirmation that the necessary data-sharing agreements are in place before assessments can resume. In the meantime, my constituent, who has significant mobility challenges and very real day-to-day needs, continues to wait. Therefore, I would be grateful if the Cabinet Secretary could confirm in a written statement when the new independent assessment process will become fully operational and what support will be provided to local authorities, who will ultimately have to deal with the backlog.

Diolch yn fawr, Luke Fletcher. You will be aware that a dedicated expert group is working with councils and the Welsh Local Government Association to explore ways to streamline processes, improve data sharing and reduce administrative burdens for applications. The additional information form for when an application is referred to the independent advisory service has been reviewed, shortened and shared with local authorities to implement. Of course, we fund that independent advisory service in Wales, and that's to assist local authorities to assess eligibility and provide advice. We've recently appointed a new contractor to provide this service in terms of making decisions on eligibility. Also, we are prioritising information assurance arrangements before local authorities could once again make referrals.

It's regrettable that there have been delays in applications. Local authorities can now use the independent advisory service, and they're able to prioritise referrals. There is more I could say on this, but we are absolutely committed to ensuring that disabled people with the greatest barriers to their mobility can access the blue badge system. We will ensure that the reviews that have taken place, and many have been—. And the Petitions Committee played a role in this, of course. We've made those changes with stakeholders and health professionals, and we expect the independent advisory service to function effectively.

Good afternoon, Trefnydd. May I please ask for two statements from the relevant Cabinet Secretaries? Firstly, last week I attended the launch of the legislative proposal for a clean water Act, Bil dŵr glân. The event highlighted the fundamental importance of clean water for all our homes, our businesses and long-term viability of our farming sector. We know that, given the worsening situation in our rivers, this Bill is urgently needed, so I'd just like to get your response to that, if I may, please.

Also, I'd like to ask for a statement from the Minister for Mental Health and Well-being on the gambling levy that was announced by the UK Government last week. Wales's share of around £5 million annually is significant—not enough, but it is a step in the right direction. Any delays in the allocation of this money will put lives at risk, so I'd like to ask for your response on how we can ensure there's no delay to the funding for these vital services. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Diolch yn fawr, Jane Dodds. Of course, as you regularly raise, water is essential to every part of our life in Wales—rivers, the sea, the water we drink. All of these are crucial for the health of our people and nature, the success of our economy and resilience of our communities. Of course, we are looking at the recommendations of the Independent Water Commission so Wales can shape its future, and publishing a Green Paper for consultation, and working closely with the UK Government. But we need to ensure we do have that resilient water sector for the future. Thank you for continuing to raise this in terms of the health of our waters in Wales, particularly in relation to rivers.

On the gambling levy in Wales, as you said, the UK Government is introducing a new levy on the gambling industry to tackle gambling harm. We support strongly this levy. We're working with the UK Government to manage the transition from the current services managed by GambleAware in Wales, to establish, from 1 April next year, using the levy money—. The aim is for the levy funds to help create a 'no wrong door' approach, ensuring accessible support, clear referral pathways and robust data collection. We've appointed Public Health Wales and NHS Wales Performance and Improvement as our co-ordinators for gambling prevention and treatment for those who are working to establish our services pathway.

I would like to request a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care on A&E waiting times. There were 96,800 attendances to all emergency departments in October—3,121 attendances per day. The average time in emergency departments was two hours and 48 minutes. But, Trefnydd, I know of people who spend considerably more hours—up to 48 hours, I've heard, of people just sat on a chair receiving no treatment whatsoever, and it's just not good enough. In the Betsi—[Interruption.] Sorry?

Some of them shouldn't be there.

Well, I don't know about that.

There are no interventions. You are using your time up, Janet.

In the Betsi health board, 82 per cent of patients were seen in under 12 hours, yet in August this was 98.9 per cent. As elected officials, we're seeing the consequences of this first-hand, with constituents informing us of these unacceptable waits. I even know of one patient recently leaving A&E after several uncomfortable hours, after being taken there following a very bad car accident. There needs to be clarity now on why—

Thank you, Janet.

—the Welsh Government are not taking this forward. Will you look into this, please?

We're obviously taking this extremely seriously. In terms of Betsi Cadwaladr, the health board is responsible for planning and delivering emergency care services at a local level to meet the needs of its local population. The health board has access to £2.7 million in additional funding this year to deliver a range of interventions to improve patient flow and reduce pressure on emergency.

Of course, this six-goals funding is part of the £35.5 million funding to support the health board and the north Wales regional partnership board to safely manage more people in the community and to support continued progress in reducing pathways of care. We've invested a further £30 million through the pathways of care transformation grant. So, the investment, the commitment, is clearly there, and then we expect the health board to respond appropriately with support for its patients and population.

I want to ask for two statements, please. The first is from the Cabinet Secretary for health with regard to what is happening in Tywyn Hospital. You'll be aware that the Dyfi ward has been closed for three years because of a lack of nurses. But there are local concerns that the health board hasn't promoted those posts sufficiently. You'll also be aware that the Petitions Committee has sought to look into this, but hasn't received adequate responses. We need to get to the bottom of this. May I ask for a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for health on this matter?

Secondly, may I have a written statement from the transport Minister regarding the steps that will be taken to ensure safety on the A470 near Trawsfynydd? There are pupils living in Steshon, a part of Trawsfynydd, on one side of the road, having to cross a very dangerous road to go to school. I'm not an engineer, but I can see that there's a possibility to put islands in that road to make it safer for crossing, but we need to have a feasibility study of what is possible. So, may I ask for a statement on that from the Cabinet Secretary for transport, please?

Diolch yn fawr, Mabon ap Gwynfor. Thank you for requests for updates on both of those statements. As far as the petition in terms of Ysbyty Tywyn—you've already outlined in terms of the ward closure. This is something, again, for Betsi Cadwaladr, but I know that they're aware of the situation and you've raised it and put it on record today in terms of needing an update.

In terms of transport as well, it is important that this is—. In terms of the A470 at Trawsfynydd—you have highlighted this. This is something that the Cabinet Secretary for transport will, I know, look at with his officials in terms of the response to the pressures at that point.

Trefnydd, may I ask for a statement from this Welsh Government on what representations the Welsh Government has made to the UK Government to make clear, I hope, the very real concerns over the abhorrent proposed Pathways puberty blocker trial, which proposes to give life-altering drugs to young people, some of whom are from Wales, and some of whom are a mere eight years of age? There is no justification that can be found for experimenting on children in this way, especially after what we learnt from the Cass report. This would include children from Wales, so I think it's imperative that the Government step in and act to safeguard these children and young people by making a plea to the Labour UK Government to stop this cruelty before it happens. This would cause substantial and irreversible damage to the physical, psychological, sexual and reproductive health of over 200 vulnerable children, leaving them medically dependent for life, and I believe that this justifies a statement on the floor of this Senedd. Diolch.

Thank you for your question. I mean, you have to be very careful, I think, when you raise these issues, which actually do affect our young people particularly. So, you've raised the question, but I think this is something where, indeed, of course there's close liaison between our two Governments in terms of responsibility.

And finally, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Could I seek two statements, please, leader of the house? One on the closure of the Prince of Wales bridge this morning and, over recent weeks, considerable closure times due to maintenance issues. It went under severe maintenance pressure over the last summer when that maintenance work ran on. It's causing a major economic problem with the regular closing, now, of that bridge to operators in my own region of South Wales Central, and yet we hear very little from the Welsh Government about how they're interacting with the UK Government highways agency to minimise those closures. So, a statement from the transport Minister would be appreciated.

And, secondly, on the dental contract, I raised an issue about IT provision for the dental contract come the start of April, where providers have given notice that they will not provide support, given the very time-limited period now for the new contract to be implemented. I've had representations from dentists in my own patch now that have indicated that the contract that was due to be with them by October will not be with them, now, until February, a mere two months before its introduction. That is unacceptable, and we need to understand what the health Minister is doing to make sure, if he's going to stick to the date, that the contract is implemented successfully, or better still—

Thank you, Andrew.

—delay and pilot trial some of the measures within that contract.

Well, of course, in terms of the first question that you raised, I've already responded to the impact and implications of storm Bram, which has had a major impact on our infrastructure, including our Prince of Wales bridge, but also, of course, this is maintenance that has to be carried out as well. So, I think weather events and infrastructure needs have caused those difficulties in terms of the Prince of Wales bridge. But thank you for raising it. Clearly, it has had an impact, particularly today.

The Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care will be very pleased to write to you about the issue in terms of IT provision and the dental contract.

Thank you, Trefnydd.

Item 4 is a statement by the First Minister: the Wales investment summit. I call on the First Minister, Eluned Morgan.

Last week, Wales welcomed the world, and we did so with a confidence that reflects who we are today: a nation shaped by its past, grounded in its values and ambitious about its future. The Wales investment summit exceeded all expectations, bringing together 350 delegates from 29 countries, and, crucially, 43 per cent of all delegates, including more than half of all company representatives, had no existing presence in Wales. That statistic alone demonstrates the global interest we’ve generated, and the success of this Welsh Labour Government strategy to position Wales as an outstanding destination for high-value investment.

In the International Convention Centre Wales and Celtic Manor, we presented a Wales that is modern, skilled and outward-looking. A Wales built on collaboration, the same spirit that carried us through our industrial past and now drives our innovation economy. For many attendees, it was their first real encounter with Welsh industry and Government. The impression they took away was simple: Wales is serious about the future, Wales is confident, ambitious and open for business.

Between the Welsh Government Ministers who attended, we held nearly 50 bilateral meetings with companies that are either established investors with investment projects or are actively exploring Wales as a future base. I was pleased to see the UK Government Ministers also in attendance, as their presence highlighted our shared commitment to supporting Wales's economy, and was positively received by investors. We were also honoured by the attendance of His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales, whose engagement with Welsh companies added a further international spotlight.

Llywydd, we approached this summit with clear aims: to attract new investment, to build long-term partnerships and to show that Wales is ready to lead in the industries shaping the next generation. These outcomes were achieved both in the lead-up to the event and at the summit itself. Since the summit was launched, a series of major investment announcements totalling £16 billion have been secured for Wales. These announcements reflect both new investor interests and the confidence of existing global names in expanding their work here. Key announcements so far include: Vodafone's £600 million investment to bring fifth generation coverage to 99 per cent of Wales, benefiting an extra 2 million people; GE Aerospace Wales's £90 million to modernise its global customer base at the Nantgarw site, which employs more than 1,350 highly skilled engineers and technical specialists; Associated British Ports's £42 million capital investment in five Welsh ports, including introducing a new deep-water berth at Middle Quay in Newport; RWE's £200 million to build its largest facility for battery energy storage in Pembroke, which will help to stabilise the UK energy market by storing surplus energy and feeding it into the national grid; Eni's several hundred million-pound investment in carbon capture and storage on the site of the former colliery area at Point of Ayr, Flintshire, creating more than 1,000 jobs; and Bad Wolf with £2 million for the production of two new high-end tv productions that will invest £30 million in the Welsh economy.

Vantage Data Centers's plans to invest £10 billion across south Wales, including at sites such as the former Ford Bridgend engine plant, transforming the plant into a world-class data centre campus to meet the demands of the AI revolution. This investment is expected to create over 5,000 jobs in data construction and operations.

This reflects a shift in how Wales is seen: as a stable place to invest, a skilled place to build and a confident place to grow. Investors told me, repeatedly, that stability is one of Wales's greatest strengths. In a world that feels uncertain, they're looking for Governments that provide clarity and partnership, and that's something we are proud to offer as a Welsh Labour Government. Investors made it clear that they are seeking environments where policy is clear, governance is dependable and long-term planning is supported. This is an area where we, as a Welsh Labour Government, provide real confidence, through a stable regulatory framework, a clear strategic direction and a long-term commitment to economic growth and innovation.

The breadth of sectors at the summit also tells its own story: clean energy, digital technology, cyber security, compound semiconductors, the creative industries, advanced manufacturing and life sciences. And what we showed was a modern, diversified Welsh economy, rooted in the values that have always defined us, namely ambition, fairness and community.

Importantly, the summit was an opportunity for us to ensure that we weren't just presenting but also listening. Investors were frank about the barriers that must be overcome to unlock even greater growth. Their feedback is already shaping our next steps, because we know that economic success comes from partnership not proclamation.

This dialogue will shape the way that we think about policy, infrastructure and support for businesses, ensuring that the environment we create is not just competitive today, but sustainable and responsive for the future. By listening, learning and acting on what we hear, we can remove obstacles, nurture innovation and reinforce the confidence investors need to commit for the long term.

In doing so, this Welsh Labour Government is building a Wales that is recognised not only for its talent, its technology and its ambition, but also for its stability and the fact that we are open—a Wales where businesses can grow with certainty and confidence.

This summit was not an end point, it's the beginning of the next chapter. Our teams are now engaging with every major investor who attended, ensuring momentum is not lost and opportunities are not missed. The work continues, steadily, deliberately and with purpose. This is the Wales we showed the world: a nation proud of where it's come from and clear about where it's going, and ready to welcome those who want to build a future with us. Diolch.

Thank you, First Minister, for your statement. Can I welcome the fact that we saw an investment summit that took place in Newport? I think that these are the sorts of events that we need to see more of in order to attract additional investment into Wales, and, my goodness, don't we need it? Our country, of course, has fallen behind as far as the economy is concerned. People here get lower wages than in the rest of Britain, and we know that many businesses out there are struggling, particularly, of course, with the increased costs of employing people, and that's why we have the highest unemployment rate in Britain at the moment, and unfortunately it's been going up and up and up in recent months.

You listed a number of people, of course, who were present at the investment summit. Noticeably, of course, the Secretary of State for Wales was not present. She seemed to have found something more important to do elsewhere in the country on that date. I mean, I have to say, if the Secretary of State for Wales is worth anything, they ought to be in Wales on an important occasion like the investment summit that took place. Probably, she was ashamed of the budget, which had taken place from her Labour colleagues—although I saw that the Chancellor had taken the time to be with you—which of course is going to further decimate business opportunities in our country.

One of the interesting things that I noted—well, a couple of interesting things—in the list of investments that the summit had supposedly achieved was the reference to £600 million-worth of investment to bring 5G coverage to Wales from Vodafone. Just a cursory glance online with a Google search showed me that they actually announced that investment on 22 September, many months before the summit. Also the Eni project—several hundred million pounds-worth of investment in carbon capture and storage—was announced back in April of this year, well before the summit. So, I have no idea why you're trying to claim credit for things that, clearly, the summit didn't achieve.

Now look, I accept that you've got to reach out to businesses, that you've got to show that Wales is a friendly place to do business, but the best way to do that is to actually have a tax-cutting agenda that makes it more attractive to set up businesses here in Wales.

Now, the previous UK Government worked hard to try to make sure that Wales could secure some additional investment through the growth deals, through those enterprise zones, all of those things—that action that was taken in order to make Wales an attractive place. And this was in spite of the fact that the Welsh Government has the worst business rates regime in the country, and was proposing increased tax on things like tourism, which, of course, is a key industry for us. So, I think you’re trying to attract people with one hand and then pushing them away with the other, and that’s a strategy that is not going to work in the longer term. We need to see bolder action from the Welsh Government.

Well, the Confederation of British Industry said that, at the investment summit, the Welsh dragon roared. It was a showcase the likes of which I don’t think Wales has ever seen before. There has already, in the past year, been a 30 per cent increase in the number of jobs as a result of inward investment. And that is a situation that I know the Chancellor would eat her heart out for if that happened in England. The fact is that we did have the Chancellor at the investment summit. It was our summit. We organised it. It was our showcase. We invited them to the summit. The Chancellor was there. The business Secretary was there. Kanishka Narayan, the technology Minister, was there, and there was a representative from the Welsh Office.

You talk about how this was announced and packaged. We’ve been clear all along—and I’ve been clear right from the beginning—that I wanted this to be a journey, a journey that started a year ago, when I announced that we would be hosting this investment summit. And I made it clear to officials that the summit couldn’t be a point in time; we had to build up to it and continue after it. And that is why I think it’s absolutely legitimate for us to say that we take account of all of the investments from the announcement of that investment summit. And I very much welcome the investment of Vodaphone into Wales. I think it will transform the opportunities for people in our communities.

I didn’t get any sense that people felt that they were being pushed away; I got a sense that people felt that they were looking for stability. We are living in a very unstable world, a very unstable situation. And one of the things that they absolutely loved was the fact that, actually, we do skills really differently—100,000 apprentices over the past five years. Now, that is something to celebrate. It is very, very different from what is going on elsewhere. And they liked that approach. They liked the fact that they could help to shape the kind of training that happened. They liked the fact that we’re serious about the infrastructure that’s necessary when it comes to making sure that the opportunities are there for people to expand, and that the reliability is there.

So, it was actually an incredibly successful summit, and we have had really positive feedback from all of the delegates who attended.

There was some fanfare around this summit in the months leading up to the summit, during the summit itself, and, of course, that continues today in this statement from the First Minister. At every opportunity, there has been an attempt to convey it as the great catalyst that will transform the Welsh economy. I am entirely open that we on these benches, of course, support any attempt to highlight Wales's ambition to be a good place to do business. But, behind all of that fanfare, there is a reality, of course, and we need to look at things, I think, in a realistic and clear-minded way. Yes, announcements were made, time and time again, and again today, of billions of pounds in investment, but I'll quote from the journalist Sion Barry,

'in terms of having the desired impact of lifting the Welsh economy, and yes it could take years for investment projects seeded at the summit to be realised, it is not going to change the dial.'

He added:

'If the summit hadn't been held these investments would still have happened.'

I think that's the key. On those investments, it's also important to recognise that the vast majority of the 10,000 jobs quoted and that were announced at the summit would be generated, most of those are at the construction phase of projects. Now, it's very important that a growing economy has jobs created within construction, but we have to be mindful that, ultimately, they will be temporary jobs, and what we're looking for always are guarantees of those longer-term employment opportunities. I look at Wylfa in my own constituency in exactly the same way: it's the jobs at a power station when it is operating that will make a difference to a community such as ours. So, I'd be grateful if the First Minister could shed more light on the more innovative and ambitious investments that came out of the summit itself that actually will mean long-term jobs here in Wales and that will truly change the dial when it comes to the Welsh economy.

Foreign direct investment can bring real benefits, clearly, but we have painful experience here in Wales of what happens when too much emphasis is put on FDI. So, we have to make sure that our home-grown, our small and medium-sized businesses, the backbone of the Welsh economy, are truly supported to thrive and grow. Currently, they feel all too often that Welsh Government isn't on their side. Plaid Cymru has been very clear how we would support businesses in Wales. We want to establish a new development agency, a new kind of development agency for Wales, that provides businesses with the support and the advice they need to help them, and to grow—yes, bringing in investment, but making sure that we invest and support indigenous businesses, and adjusting business rates in Wales so that SMEs get a better deal compared to larger multinational companies. So, in light of the summit, can the First Minister tell us how she intends to strike that balance when it comes to ensuring that any focus on attracting inward investment isn't at the expense of our SMEs? Because it's very clear that that particular summit that we're referring to this afternoon wasn't about finding that balance; it was something different.

Plaid Cymru is pro-investment. We believe in our potential as a nation. We want to share our potential with the world. But this summit, five months before the Senedd election—people won't have missed that—with Labour having had 26 years to change the economic fortunes of Wales, is simply too late, I think, for Labour. It's not just us saying that—just read the commentary. The combination of a lack of an economic plan from Labour in Wales for two decades and more, combined with the refusal of their London bosses to give Wales the powers it needs to shape its own economic future, and the decisions, for example, to row back on rejoining the single market and the customs union, which has already cost the Welsh economy £4 billion, has left Wales worse off. We need a Government, as soon as possible, that is ready to offer new leadership for Wales and for the Welsh economy, and that's exactly what Plaid Cymru is prepared to give.

Well, I think it lived up to the fanfare. We did make a big fanfare about it, and it lived up to it. The fact is that the reaction was extraordinary. We tailor-made packages of introductions for people who came to Wales for the first time. We were absolutely unapologetic of the fact that, if you were invited to the conference, you had the golden ticket. That was the purpose of it. No, it wasn't meant to be for SMEs; it was meant to be for people who were coming from other countries who are interested in investing. We already have hundreds of thousands of people in Wales who are dependent on those companies from overseas for their livelihoods. What we were keen to say is, 'We want more of that.'

It was wonderful to have the presentations from Wales, some of our expert and most wonderful presentations, including Neon Black's PJ, who set up the most extraordinary creative lighting system, a light show and a 360-degree experience with a film narration by Michael Sheen. It was extraordinary. The Welsh of the West End really lifted the spirits of everybody in the hall. The Llareggub band. Alex Jones presenting. Sian Williams presenting. This really was an extraordinary summit. Sion Barry actually said we got 10 out of 10. So, you can quote the bits you want, and I will quote the— [Interruption.]

Let me just be clear in terms of outcomes: 40 per cent of the people who attended the summit had never been to Wales before. You're not going to get an outcome within a week, if you don't mind. I think it's really important—[Interruption.] You're not going to get an outcome from people who've just walked into your country within a week. Let's be absolutely clear that this is about building a relationship. You might look down at the construction sector; I don't. I want to see build, build, build.

I think it's really important for us now to follow up with companies who had their eyes opened to Wales for the first time. And you're quite right, we've got to be careful how we do this, because the last thing I want to see is what we've seen in the past, where big companies have got major grants and then times get tough and off they go. My interest is in making sure that what we offer them is a really good skills base. It is important that we develop that skills base. But it is a skills base that is tailored to the needs of the companies—so, working with them, building on the kind of work that Jack Sargeant is doing at the moment.

This was a very different approach. It wasn't meant to be targeted at SMEs. We have a whole different structure for that. The Development Bank of Wales recently gave £1 billion of funding to small businesses in Wales—50,000 jobs created. That is part of our offer to small companies in Wales.

First Minister, it was very good to see that Wales investment summit taking place at the international conference centre in Newport, and indeed Wales Tech Week having been held there the week before, all of this happening in my colleague Jayne Bryant's constituency. We know that we have real economic strengths in Newport, so I think it was entirely appropriate that these events were taking place in the city, with our semiconductor cluster, cybersecurity, data centres and indeed the AI growth zone. Would you agree with me, First Minister, just as you say, that we do not expect outcomes overnight from an event of this nature, but we can confidently expect in Wales and in Newport to see further highly skilled, highly paid jobs coming to Wales and to Newport following this Wales investment summit?

Thank you. Whilst you're right, what we're looking for is seeing the outcomes of that summit coming, I don't think we should sniff at the fact that actually we've landed £16 billion of investment in a year. That is something that I think we should celebrate. We do have economic strengths in various different areas. What we did at this summit was to focus on the areas where we already have strengths. So, we did focus on compound semiconductors. We had tailor-made presentations so that people understood the expertise that exists here in Wales. We reminded them that, anybody who has a digital phone, wherever they go in the world, they have a little piece of Wales that they carry around with them. I did encourage them, every time they looked at their phone, to think about us here in Wales.

The AI growth zone is, I think, going to be transformational for us and I do think that that vision that we've got to present, that sense of hope for our nation, is critical. I want to see our nation transformed from a post-industrial situation to a country that is looking to the future with hope, with confidence; a digital future that is powered by clean energy. That is what we're looking for and that's the vision that they saw presented and that they, I hope, will be following up.

I am scratching my head a little bit at some of the responses we've had from the First Minister, things that I see perhaps as a contradiction. In the first instance, in response to Darren Millar asking around some of those investment announcements that had happened before the summit, the First Minister said that this has been a job of work that has been ongoing since the announcement of that summit. And then, in response to Rhun ap Iorwerth asking questions around what announcements would come as a result of the summit, you said, 'Well, actually this has only happened a week ago, so we can't expect any announcements just yet.' So, that is a slight contradiction there.

But let's be clear, it's very welcome to have this summit and it is very impressive on the surface of it: 300 delegates from around the world, talk of securing £16 billion-worth of investment projects and 10,000 potential jobs. But what I really want to see now is us moving from the point of just simply looking at the headlines. So, when do we expect to see some detail from the Government, you know, how deals will augment local Welsh businesses and support Welsh businesses, for example? How will the deals affect our communities, for example? So, could the First Minister publish a breakdown of agreements that are the direct result of this summit? Could we also have projections of what these deals mean for the Welsh economy, along with transparency on how those projections were arrived at?

Thank you, Luke.

Rhun ap Iorwerth mentioned Sion Barry's comments. We've been down this road before. That's why in this instance the detail is going to be so important.

Well, you might want to look down your nose at £16 billion of investment, but £16 billion of investment is going to be transformative for the lives of the people in those communities. [Interruption.] It is important that we follow up, and that's why what we'll be doing is making sure that we will be following up. It's clearly too early to set out agreements. [Interruption.] Some of that was an introduction to Wales. What's the point in setting that out now? What we're doing now is to make sure—

First Minister. I can't hear the First Minister, because there's too much talking going on across the Chamber from all parties. I would like to listen to the First Minister's response in peace and quiet please. First Minister.

So, it's too early to set out what those agreements are. Some of that is going to be intense tailor-made instruction and support by officials, not in the next week, not in the next month, but over a period of time. So, clearly, now is not the time to demonstrate the direct outcome of the summit. We're going to need time to do that. So, I don't apologise for that. We needed to take some of these people who'd never been to Wales before on a journey. And what I can tell you—you might not like this, you might not like this—but what I can tell you is that they were enthused by our country. They were excited by our country, they were really looking forward to building a relationship, because part of what we offered was to be a part of our family, to join our family, to join our nation and to help us to build that nation for the future.

I do welcome many of the announcements that have been made. Thank you so much for that and for the work that went into it. I'm sure lots of officials worked very hard in order to ensure that there was the sort of membership that we've heard about.

I just wanted to focus on two things, if I may. Rhun mentioned the issue of Brexit and the effect that it's had on the Welsh economy—£4 billion has been lost. Now, we're getting to 10 years since the vote. I wonder if this was discussed. Also, how are you going to be raising that with Keir Starmer to ensure that we really have that break to rejoin the customs union and the single market, which will benefit our businesses here in Wales? It is so important that we don't forget that and the effect that it's having on our economy.

The second is about arts and culture and the rural economy. And we saw Bad Wolf in the outline, Green Man in Powys brings over £28.9 million into the Powys economy, into the rural economy. We just need to make sure that we keep arts and culture and the rural economy absolutely front and centre for our economy and to make sure that we deliver for the people outside the cities and towns that I know that you've mentioned. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you. Well, you don't need me to explain myself when it comes to my Euro enthusiasm. I was devastated when we left the European Union and I have made it clear time and time again that I want to see the closest possible relationship with the European Union.

When it comes to arts and culture, we were very specific when it came to sectors, and we picked the creative sector as one of the areas that we wanted to highlight, where we have real expertise and professionalism within Wales. So, it was great that Bad Wolf was there. They are the largest production company in the United Kingdom in terms of turnover last year. They are presenting Wales on a global stage. This is something that we must celebrate. And one of the great things about Bad Wolf is the way that they are so inclusive when it comes to the people that they employ. But the creative sector was something that we also highlighted at the British-Irish Council. It was absolutely the central theme. And it was wonderful to invite them, again, to invite Bad Wolf, to come and present. People were bowled over by the presentations, by the gaming companies that were there, but also by the opportunity to meet with Ruth Jones, who of course has done so much for Wales, putting Wales on the international map with Gavin and Stacey, and it was wonderful also to have the presence of Mererid Hopwood, the archdruid of Wales, who bowled them over with her wonderful poetry. So, that was an opportunity for us to present Wales in all our creative brilliance, and certainly that was perhaps a smaller audience, but arts and culture, the creative sector, is absolutely central to our vision for Wales.

I very much welcome the statement on the investment summit. I sometimes think that, if the First Minister came back and said, 'The streets of Wales are going to be paved with gold', we'd have people in here saying, 'Won't that make them slippery?' [Laughter.]

We know from studying economies across the world that there's a tendency for industry to grow and form clusters. Examples include finance in London, New York and Frankfurt, technology in Silicon valley in California, Eindhoven and Cambridge. The Welsh Government has said that it hopes, following the summit, to increase investment in sectors already present in Wales, like semiconductors, the creative industries, advanced manufacturing and life sciences. It's always easier to grow industries and sectors that you already have a presence in. Inward investment is a very important part of economic growth. The other important part is growing industries from innovation at universities. They are not in competition. New companies growing and inward investment work together, forming a symbiotic relationship. What proposals does the Welsh Government have to support growth from university research?

Well, you know what, we've got more companies being set up from graduates in Wales than any other part of the United Kingdom. That was one of the things that we were able to sell at the investment summit, recognising that innovation is central even to these big global companies. They want to be close to people with those ideas, they want to make sure that they are close to universities and the research capacity as well. They were very clear to us that what we should do is exactly what we did do, which was to focus on the areas where we already have strength and build on those: 'Don't try to create something new; demonstrate what you've got and showcase that', and that's precisely what we did. And I would like to thank, in particular, Rebecca Evans for her leadership on the whole economy portfolio and her leadership during the investment summit as well.

Diolch for your statement, First Minister. We, of course, welcome any new investment coming into Wales, the jobs, the opportunity and, of course, the global interest shown at the summit. However, there are many questions that arise from your statement, and many have been asked. I want to say that it is a pity that we haven't seen this focus on attracting investment until now, months before an election, although it really falls short of real ambition, doesn't it, the real ambition that Wales needs to see and deserves.

You said that investors were, I quote, frank about the barriers that this Government must overcome to unlock growth. I bet they were. I would like to know what conversations you've had with the UK Government to make the environment better for businesses and people to invest here in Wales, in terms of tax; in terms of honest conversations about the value of high earners in Wales and the need to attract and keep them here; in terms of transport and blocking the M4, which arguably was the worst u-turn that a Labour Government in this place has made. And why wasn't taxation, talent retention, skills, higher rate taxpayer flight, the fact that you have cut the number of apprenticeships and the fact that we're missing a proper development agency to help with these ambitions, why were they not addressed at the Wales investment summit? Without addressing these, I fear that Wales will not reach its full potential, and that's a shame. I believe that it's clear—

Thank you, Laura.

I believe it is clear that now only a Reform Government can deliver that investment, growth and opportunity that Wales needs and deserves.

Look, 200,000 apprentices in 10 years; people are bowled over by that figure, and people are really impressed with the way that we do apprenticeships in Wales. I think that is something we should be celebrating, alongside the kind of support that our flexible support to companies also offers. We were having honest conversations, and some of those honest conversations were about stability and the need for stability, and I tell you what: I do question whether many of those companies would come to Wales if there was a Reform Government in Wales.

That is not stability. That is throwing the dice. That is absolutely putting your lot in with a party that has no experience, no seriousness when it comes to elected politics. We've seen them here before. We saw seven members of Nigel Farage's party being elected to this place, and six of them had left the party by the end of the Senedd term. That is not stability. So, I would plea to the people of Wales to take seriously, if they want to see the economy grow, then you need to stick with Labour. You need to make sure that that stability that we've offered for so long, the situation where, in the first phase of this place, we had to establish devolution; in the second phase, we had to defend it against Tory austerity. And now we're at the third phase, that opportunity to build on the foundations that we have created, to build on the apprenticeships, and to make sure that we can offer jobs for the people of Wales, so that when we train them up, they've actually got a reason to stay. That is what this investment summit is about, and that's what Welsh Labour offers.

And finally, Lesley Griffiths.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. The food and drink industry, First Minister, is a very important sector in Wales, and it was good to hear it was represented at the investment summit. Our amazing producers have long brought the world to Wales when it comes to showcasing our fantastic Welsh food and drink. I would say Blas Cymru was probably a precursor to the investment summit, on a smaller scale. The sector's attracted billions of pounds of investment over the last decade, £7.5 billion in 2019. The Welsh Government set a target of 30 per cent growth for the sector by the end of this year, and that equates to £8.5 billion turnover. So, could you clarify, in light of the investment summit, what targets will the Welsh Government be expecting from the sector, and what will they be setting the sector to?

Well, I think Blas Cymru has been a real success story. It's opened the eyes of the world to Wales when it comes to food and drink, and that growth that you are partly responsible for in this sector is something that I think should be celebrated. We showcased food and drink at this summit, but it wasn't one of the sectors that we really promoted, because, partly, Blas Cymru is already there. That 30 per cent growth that we're seeing is crucial for us to build on, for us to recognise, and we come back to the question I was asked by Jane Dodds earlier about where the opportunities are, in particular for rural businesses. I think food and drink is an area where what we need to be doing is adding value. We've got to add value to the raw material that we produce so well here in Wales, and I'd like to thank you and pay tribute to you for your role in growing that really important sector for us.

Thank you, First Minister.

Item 5 today is a statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care on the new emergency ambulance performance framework and ambulance patient handover at hospitals. I call on the Cabinet Secretary, Jeremy Miles.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. In July, I announced changes to the emergency ambulance performance framework and clinical response model. The first phase was focused on improving outcomes for people experiencing the most serious conditions and injuries. Two new categories were introduced, namely 'purple: arrest', for people who are experiencing a cardiac arrest, and 'red: emergency', focused on people at risk of suffering a cardiac or respiratory arrest without immediate treatment. This includes people who have suffered serious trauma.

We have moved away from blunt response times as the primary indicator of success, focusing instead on outcomes. Since introducing these changes, return of spontaneous circulation rates for people in the 'purple: arrest' category have improved. In August, more than a quarter of people had their heartbeat restored after a cardiac arrest, which was subsequently retained until arrival at hospital. We expect to see this increase over time, supported by a strengthened approach to delivering the steps in the chain of survival.

Monthly data about early recognition, prompt CPR, rapid defibrillation, and timely advanced care gives the ambulance service a clearer picture of how each stage affects patient outcomes. This detailed data will help the ambulance service and its commissioners to identify where interventions work best and where further improvements are needed to maximise survival and recovery.

The ambulance service has now launched the next phase of its changes. These are focused on improving outcomes and experiences for people with time-sensitive conditions, such as stroke and heart attacks. Instead of the previous amber and green call categories, there are new categories, namely 'orange: now', 'yellow: soon' and 'green: planned' categories.

If staff dealing with calls place people in the 'orange: now' category, it means that they have serious, time-sensitive conditions. These are the kinds of people who need face-to-face clinical assessment, initial on-scene treatment and then rapid transfer to hospital or specialist care. For example, this might be someone with symptoms of a stroke or a heart attack.

The 'yellow: soon' category includes people who have been assessed as requiring further assessment over the telephone or at the scene by an ambulance clinician. After this, a decision is made about the most appropriate next steps for their care.

This could be, for example, someone with abdominal pain, or someone who is experiencing increased symptoms as a result of a long-term condition such as chronic obstructive pulmonary disease. Following assessment, people in the yellow category could stay at home, or the ambulance service might arrange transport to hospital for further diagnosis and, if needed, treatment.

People classified as 'green: planned' can be treated safely at home with the right care from community care services. This could be someone with a mild infection who may need some additional support from their district nursing team, for example.

We will monitor the quality of care and timeliness of the response and patient journey for people classified as orange. We will monitor if the correct treatment has been provided by an ambulance clinician to a person in stroke, and how long it took from the time the call was placed to arrival at hospital. Transport to the right clinician quickly for the right intervention is crucial for positive outcomes for people in this category, and additional clinical indicators will be developed as necessary.

We'll also monitor the average—the median—response time to people classified in the yellow and green categories, as well as the ninetieth percentile, known as the ‘longest wait’. Data about individuals’ outcomes after ambulance service assessment or response will also be collected and published.

These changes will be supported by the wider changes we've made following lessons learnt from last winter. The ambulance service has introduced new ways of working to support people experiencing breathlessness and people who have fallen. Last winter, many young children under five were taken directly to hospital by ambulance for breathing difficulties, even when what they really needed was clear and specific clinical advice. By introducing specialist paediatric clinicians and the increased use of clinical data to help manage ambulance service demand, clinical advice is now provided much earlier in a person's care, allowing for more effective remote management. This not only delivers better patient experience and outcomes, but it ensures that only those people who need to go to hospital do so.

The Welsh Government-funded falls co-ordination desk, which is part of the Welsh ambulance clinical contact centre, is making a difference to people who have fallen. Over 1,000 calls relating to falls are made to the ambulance service each week. Experienced clinicians are providing rapid and tailored support, which includes remote support for the safe lifting of people from the floor, helping to avoid older and frail people lying for long periods. We will evaluate the impact of the new approach over the next 18 months to ensure that it is delivering the expected improvements in patient care. The independent evaluation will be led by Edge Hill University and Swansea University, and if successful, the changes will be made permanent.

I'd like to thank the Cabinet Secretary for his statement today. No-one across this Chamber wants to see ambulance response times getting better more than me. We all receive casework from all our constituents about people who've waited unnecessary lengths of time. But you did mention a number of things in your statement, Cabinet Secretary, and I hope you'll be able to cover them all.

You mentioned the orange category, and that is an important step going forward, but I'm just interested, for those people who are living in rural areas—and you talk about time-critical care—I hear from people not just in my own constituency but wider, who live in rural Wales, that they still aren't getting that timely care. So, in that orange category, how can you ensure that people are going to be seen within that time?

You also talked in your statement about hospital transport. Ambulance transport is important in making sure that we can get people to hospital for people who are in that yellow category, but what sort of transport to get people to hospital are they going to have? Is this going to be taxis? Is this going to be Welsh ambulance transport services that are going to do that? Because they need to make sure that they've got the resources also to get people to hospital.

You did then say that you'll monitor that the correct treatment is provided by ambulance clinicians to a person with stroke. That's important, because we all know that stroke is one of our biggest killers, but I'm interested in how you're going to monitor this, Cabinet Secretary, and where that's going to be reported back, because I think it's really important that we get an understanding of this. And you mentioned stroke, but are you also going to be monitoring heart attacks as well and other conditions in this area? Stroke is important, but we need to make sure that there are others, as well.

You also talked about paediatric care and about the sharing of data. The Welsh ambulance service were going through a piece of work not so long ago about sharing medical data between GPs, between the hospitals and themselves, so that they can get a full picture of the cases that they're going to. You say there are a lot of younger people with respiratory problems. So, I'm just interested in whether that system has been put in place now to make sure that there is that better information sharing, not just on paediatric care, but right the way across the system, because it does, obviously, help.

You also mentioned in your statement, Cabinet Secretary, asking health boards to do more. I'm not sure what more some of these health boards can do. They are under an awful lot of pressure. I agree with you that we need to get ambulance handovers better. It is important that we get people into hospitals. What I am being told by health boards and clinicians is that this time is actually pushing more corridor care and more people in a non-safe clinical environment within our hospitals, just to meet this target. With these figures that you presented to us about the fall in delays, how has that equated to corridor care? What are the numbers? How many people are in corridors? How many people are being admitted when they'll probably be safer in the back of an ambulance, but they're being pushed into a corridor or a room somewhere and left there? I'd just like to understand a bit more from you about that.

Thank you. I'll endeavour to deal briefly, if I may, with as many of those as I can. As the Member is aware, Powys, which I know he will have a particular interest in, has had some of the most successful response times in the old amber category, which is being replaced partly by the orange category. We will want to see a similar level of performance under the new arrangements. In fact, it's the ability to focus the most rapid response on the orange category, which is a much more specific tailored category than the old amber category, that will enable that rapid response for the highest acuity patients. He was asking what we would measure. In the orange time-sensitive category, we'll track, for example, ambulance delivery of clinical care bundles and median call-to-door times for both stroke, which he asked about, and STEMI patients, and that will be published.

In relation to the vehicles that will be available to respond, I think it's really important that in moving away simply from a time target, we are able, therefore—. There's a risk in terms of a simple time target that you hit the target but miss the point. A rapid response vehicle being sent out to a patient will hit the target, but may not be the right vehicle for the patient's needs. Having a more outcomes-based approach does mean that those resources can be allocated more appropriately. Sometimes it will be an ambulance, sometimes it will be a rapid response vehicle. It may be that it's a non-emergency vehicle in other cases. It depends on the level of acuity, which the clinical triage process will be able to determine. There is a range of options. The crucial thing is that we will measure the time between the call and the delivery of the appropriate intervention, if you like. That will capture the most relevant data, if I can put it like that.

He made an important point about the sharing of data. There is work under way at the moment in the Welsh Government to respond to the regulatory landscape. There are some regulatory questions in this space, which the Member will be aware of. Work is progressing well, which will enable better transfer of data between primary and secondary settings, which I agree with him is absolutely critical for us to be able to improve performance overall, and crucial, obviously, to making that shift of services into the community, which he also mentioned in his question.

On the relationship between the ambulance handover target and corridor care, I don't actually accept that there is a necessary link between the two. I've been to more than one hospital site in recent weeks where the focus that the hospital has brought has been on both meeting the 45-minute target and making sure that there is no corridor care. It is undoubtedly challenging, however it is absolutely possible. It is about how services are configured within the hospital in order to do that.

Well, you'll recall that I welcomed the new framework when it was announced earlier this year. Although we all have different ideas as to how to address the very serious problems in our emergency services, I think that there is broad recognition that the previous system of red calls wasn’t working effectively for the benefit of patients. I therefore think that putting more emphasis on clinical outcomes as a basis for the new framework is an important step forward, and, indeed, there’s a very strong case for conducting such a review across other areas of the health system too.

But it’s one thing to put the foundations in place, it’s another to ensure that the framework works through definite and improved outcomes. Whilst I recognise fully that this framework has only been implemented since July, it’s fair to say that the results to date have been mixed.

Now, the Cabinet Secretary said, and I will quote in English because that’s the statement I have in front of me:

'Since introducing the changes, return of spontaneous circulation rates for people in the "purple: arrest" category have improved.'

However, according to the percentages that I have seen, the latest statistics for October, the recovery for those with heart pains who were in an ambulance before getting to the hospital, which is the main measure for the 'purple: arrest' calls, has declined by 20 per cent in the October figures, as I have said, which is the lowest level since the framework was introduced. Does the Cabinet Secretary accept those statistics, and does he agree that that is worrying?

We’ve also seen the average wait times for red calls remaining higher than the Government's ideal target every month to date. So, can I ask what your expectations were, Cabinet Secretary, for the implementation of the framework in these initial months? Are the return of spontaneous circulation levels, for example, in line with what you had expected? Also, how do you compare the current clinical performance with the old system?

In addition to improving the response to emergencies, it’s crucially important to ensure that staff time is used as effectively as possible, particularly given the huge strain on emergency departments. I therefore welcome the additional consideration given in the framework to ensuring a better system for cases that do not necessarily need hospital admission. You've mentioned your desire to see a reduction of 10 per cent by the end of the year in the number of people taken to hospital without injuries or with minor injuries. Can I therefore ask whether you are on track to deliver that aim?

There's an important role for technology in all of this, and I'm very pleased to see that trialling the use of assessment videos before getting to hospital has been introduced across five hospitals in order to allow better homecare for stroke patients. Can I ask for your assessment of these trials? How much of a reduction has there been in ambulance journeys as a direct result of the use of technology, and is there an intention to extend this across Wales?

It's encouraging also to hear, as the Cabinet Secretary stated last month, that there's been progress in addressing the hours lost because of delayed transfers, but the truth is that the numbers are still exceptionally high, with over 37,000 hours lost since the introduction of the framework back in the summer. Do you agree, therefore, that there is a strong case for developing a strategy to increase the number of ambulance reception centres in Wales? Not only do these units reduce bottlenecks in emergency departments, but they also release valuable time for ambulances, something that is crucially important in rural areas.

I thank the Member for those questions. Performance in terms of ROSC in the purple category has demonstrated improvement in the period since we introduced this new framework over the summer, but I would say in general terms that we're a matter of weeks or a few months into the implementation of the new plan. So, I don't think it's appropriate to place too much emphasis on that progress that's been made. We do need to look at how it works in the longer term.

As I said in broad terms in the statement, we're trying to align the evaluation of the changes that we mentioned last week with the changes introduced in the summer, so that both are considered together over the next 18 months, and that we see the system working rather than individual frameworks. I think that's just a sensible step to take. But we're on track to reach the aim that he asked about in his question.

There is a relationship, as the Member acknowledged, between the capacity of the ambulance service to respond in a timely manner to those who've had an injury at home, for example, on the one hand, and the ability for the system as a whole to release ambulances in a timely manner from the hospital forecourt. It's of course true to say that there is too much delay at emergency departments, but it's also important to note that we saw in October the second-lowest total of lost hours since July 2021, and the month that was at its lowest was September,

So, there has been significant progress made over the past four years. We started planning for the winter this year in March, so over the past six months I think the system has prioritised this in a way that is positive. The picture, of course, varies. The Member will know that some hospitals are still experiencing significant challenges tackling this particular objective, but we have other hospitals where sometimes, in some weeks, we see 100 per cent of ambulances being released within the target period.

So, it's a mixed picture. We have seen hospitals such as the Grange making progress for a period of time and then rolling back on that progress, and other hospitals such as Morriston making significant progress in a short period of time and managing to sustain that progress. So, the picture is varied. The challenge, as always, is to ensure that the learning from the success in one area is transferred to other areas. We see evidence of that happening, but certainly, over the next few weeks, we need to continue with that.

I myself don't believe that specialist centres for ambulances is a response; we need to ensure that the system is able to respond in the most holistic way to the needs of the patient. Ultimately, flow through the hospital is the thing that will ensure that that happens. In that context, the Member talks about beds. I don't believe that that is at the heart of the challenge that we're facing.

I appreciate the statement.

I'm grateful for what you've said, because this is something that is concerning a great many people.

I was contacted this week by someone who works on an ambulance, and they wanted to raise the alarm about the dire situation with ambulance waiting times locally. When this ambulance worker sent me the message, they were sitting outside the Grange A&E along with 16 other ambulances. They told me that the average waiting time for ambulance handovers was nine hours. Apparently, the 45-minute handover rule only worked in October. But since then, it's gone back to this very dreadful normal. They warn me that patients are suffering, that lives are being put at risk, and they worry that senior management teams know that there won't be any consequences if they breach that 45-minute rule.

Now, I appreciate all of the work that the Government is doing on this—I really do—but every hour that ambulances sit waiting outside an A&E is an hour that they can't be on the roads, on their way to help people and save people's lives. I know this is something that you'll share my concern about. Could I ask what hope I can pass on to this ambulance worker and their colleagues that the situation will change, please?

Well, I hope the Member will have heard what I said in response to Mabon ap Gwynfor, which does acknowledge some of the points that she's raised in her question: the Grange specifically saw quite considerable progress over—I don't think it was just October, I think September as well. You could make the argument there was an improvement. But it is right to say that that has fallen back.

One of the key interventions that I put in place was the national handover 45 taskforce, which has really wrangled the entire system to meet this target. I mean, actually, the target is to hand over within 15 minutes. The 45 minutes is a backstop arrangement, effectively. I would say that what we effectively see happening is judgments being made about the acuity of patients presenting at A&E, and what that means in practice is that those patients who may be obviously unwell, but whose demands and needs aren't at the more serious end of what someone might present to the A&E department, end up being those patients most likely to stay in the back of the ambulance. And very often, unfortunately, that means perhaps an elderly person who may have suffered a fall, where the fall itself isn't a particularly threatening issue, but is a serious issue for that individual. So, it's a very unhappy situation when that arises, but there are clinical judgments being made about the acuity of people presenting at A&E. The fundamental point, as the Member said, is that every hour lost outside a hospital obviously is not a positive experience for the patient, but it's also an hour lost for somebody waiting for an ambulance at home. That's why getting the system into balance in that way is so important.

So, we are trialling a slightly more directive approach over these two weeks. The expectation is clear, the work and the support has been in the system for several months. We've seen improvement overall. It is variable, but there'll be a daily tracking of activity over the next two weeks for us to see if that daily rhythm enables the system to bring even more focus to it. We've also tasked health boards to maximise referrals into acute frailty and same-day emergency care services to address some of the points that I've just outlined to the Member.

I think anybody who's watched the public accountability meetings will have seen that where health boards are not meeting expectations, it's often quite an uncomfortable discussion, as I think it needs to be in that context.

In part of the statement, it says about children under five being taken directly to hospital with breathing difficulties, when specific clinical advice could be given. One of the scariest times for me as a grandmother was looking after my two-year-old. He woke up, and he couldn't breathe: 'I can't breathe, Grandma.' It was a frightening, scary time. Anyway, I phoned an ambulance, and they were there quickly, within 15 minutes, and they gave him a steroid that helped—I think it was a steroid—with breathing. So frightening. It turned out it was croup, and it's reoccurred since several times. My daughter now knows what to do, and she usually goes to A&E to deal with it. But she's also been told there is a tablet she can have. I just want reassurance, though, that, should it happen to somebody, they will still have that emergency treatment for that child, because it was the most scary experience I've ever had.

Also, I want to ask another question: out-of-hours GPs referring people to A&E when possibly they don't need to go to it. A comment on that, please. That happened recently with a constituent of mine who spent the night in A&E. She didn't really need to. So, thank you.

Well, the position in relation to the latter is clear. If a patient doesn't need to be in A&E, that's the last place they should be, bluntly. We don't want to be sending people to hospital, especially in the environment of an emergency department, which is often incredibly stressful, for reasons that we will understand, if people don't have a clinical need to be there. That is why, in fact, we have the out-of-hours service for primary care needs to be met in that way.

On the first point you made, I'm sorry about the experience she had. That will have been incredibly distressing, of course. I just will take the opportunity, if I may, to say that we are seeing lots of young children presenting with flu. So, I would say it's not too late to encourage parents to have their children have—it's a nasal spray, isn't it, for children of a very young age—to take up that offer this year. We want to make sure they're protected against flu as well as RSV. So, just a message to everybody to encourage parents in their area, please, to do that. There is still an opportunity. I'm seeing it in my patch, but others will be seeing it elsewhere.

But to the specific point that the Member asked about, the intervention now of specialist paediatric clinicians in that clinical triage stage is the thing that's making the difference. So, it's being able to provide confidently specialist advice so that that parent and that child get the support that they need. I think that's a really important part of the model that WAST are introducing.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

The next item will be the statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice on the child poverty progress report 2025. The Cabinet Secretary to make that statement—Jane Hutt.

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. Today, I'm making a statement about something that goes right to the heart of what kind of nation we all want Wales to be: our ongoing work to tackle child poverty. This is set out in our latest child poverty strategy progress report, and I'm glad to share where we are, recognise what we've done, and be clear about where we need to go next.

Llywydd, one in three children in Wales are growing up in relative income poverty. That's 31 per cent of children in Wales—similar to levels in England, but significantly higher than in Northern Ireland and Scotland. Behind that number are thousands of families doing everything they can but still struggling to make ends meet. Far too many children are still growing up without the security and chances every child deserves. The rising cost of living, housing pressures and gaps in access to services are weighing heavily on families right across Wales.

The Welsh Government is using all devolved levers available to tackle child poverty, but many of the most powerful tools—especially around welfare, taxation and wage policy—remain reserved to the UK Government. This is why I welcome the Chancellor's action in the budget statement that the two-child limit will be removed, and I was pleased to engage in the four nations taskforce in the development of the UK child poverty strategy, launched last week in the Ely and Caerau Children's Centre.

The removal of the two-child limit could take 69,000 children in Wales out of poverty: a policy change we have called for as a key, proven means to reduce child poverty. But whilst we will continue to press for meaningful change at a UK level, we will not stop doing everything we can with the powers we do have.

The child poverty progress report I published on 2 December shows co-ordinated practical action across Government. Alongside the progress report, I published a monitoring framework update and an analysis of the lived experience exercise, which captured the views of over 3,000 people with lived experience of poverty. The lived experience work gives us vital evidence. It reminds us that poverty isn't just about income—it's about dignity, opportunity and hope. The report shares directly what families say has helped, what doesn't, and what still needs to change to make a difference to the people of Wales.

I'm also grateful to the child poverty external reference group and organisations on the front line providing us with expertise, advice and challenge to help in ensuring the child poverty strategy makes a real difference to the lives of children across Wales. What we've learned from the lived experience report is how the universal roll-out of free school meals has made a major difference to children's lives and to their dignity, in line with our commitment to children's rights, and I quote:

'Free school meals has made our lives much easier and ensured the children have a hot meal daily.'

'It's teaching children how to eat healthy. I feel like they're being treated equally.'

The child poverty progress report provides a high-level summary of the main progress we've made in addressing the 19 objectives, driving work across Government to focus on the needs of children in poverty, supporting and agreeing priorities, and encouraging partners to work in new or different ways. Since 2022, we've invested more than £7 billion to reduce costs and maximise incomes for families, and that includes the single advice fund, unlocking over £200 million in unclaimed benefits, and the discretionary assistance fund, providing vital help in moments of crisis. Feedback included in the lived experience report included,

'DAF and Foodbank has helped feed/provide for my family when times were dire. Childcare helped to work.'

Universal free school meals for every primary school child—more than 50 million meals delivered since 2022—and targeted provision in secondary schools, where now more than two thirds of learners can receive a free school meal every day. The introduction of baby bundles. Education maintenance allowance rising to £40. We've also funded over 100 million free breakfasts in primary schools over the past two decades. And last week I visited Ysgol Rhiw Syr Dafydd in Blackwood and saw first-hand the difference our universal primary free school meal programme and free breakfasts are making to children and their families. At Coastlands Family Church, home to one of the Vale foodbank centres, I met with referral partners to discuss the challenges they're addressing. I was heartened to see that this foodbank is not only providing essential food parcels, it's also offering hot meals, and only last week served its ten-thousandth meal.

Thank you for your statement, Cabinet Secretary. The latest child poverty strategy progress report shows that, far from making progress on tackling child poverty, Wales is actually going backwards. We now have nearly a third of children living in poverty, despite a commitment by the Welsh Government to eradicate it. Labour has been in charge in Wales for 26 years, and yet Wales has the highest level of child poverty out of any home nation. The Cabinet Secretary's statement acknowledged the impact of children's poverty upon the life chances of Welsh children. For example, last year, children eligible for free school meals were a third less likely to achieve top marks in their GCSEs.

This situation has been allowed to decline over the past decade, but, rather than admit culpability, the Welsh Government chooses to blame the UK Government. Their big hope for tackling child poverty is the removal of the two-child benefit cap. Can you provide detailed evidence of the impact this policy will have on child poverty in Wales? So far, all we have seen are assertions. Cabinet Secretary, what assessments have the Welsh Government made of the impact putting taxes up on working families will have on child poverty? Do you not agree that the best way out of poverty is through work? Cabinet Secretary, what discussions have you had with Cabinet colleagues about the steps the Welsh Government can take to increase employment opportunities in Wales, so we can provide parents with well-paying jobs? Coupled with the Cabinet Secretary, will your Government now agree that replicating England's more generous childcare offer is the best way of helping parents into meaningful employment? After all, the Prime Minister chose to launch his child poverty strategy while welcoming an additional 20 child places in Ely and Caerau Children's Centre.

Finally, Cabinet Secretary, you made a passing reference to housing. We need to think of children who will spend Christmas Day in bed-and-breakfast accommodation because the Welsh Government, once again, failed to meet its housing targets. Diolch.

Diolch yn fawr, Altaf Hussain. I hope you will join me, as the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, in welcoming the progress that has been made in terms of tackling child poverty, and the ambitions of the child poverty strategy. Also, I hope you will welcome the engagement of our children and young people and their organisations in our lived experience report, to show us very clearly from their experience what works and what we should do more of. And I think what is very clear from the evidence that has been given is the fact that the ways in which we are supporting children and families across the whole of the Government—and you make that point, and it is a key point—it's one of our key priorities that we show action through working across the Welsh Government.

The removal of the two-child limit, which I know you as a party don’t agree with—. You introduced the two-child limit. And I have to say that the evidence is clear; do we have to keep saying it? It’s going to bring relief to 69,000 children in Wales and reduce relative child poverty rates, in Wales, by up to three to four percentage points. How can you not agree that and see the evidence that this is going to change the prospects of those children? So, I’ve welcomed it, and of course you know that we were able to influence that decision, and I thank all of those in the Senedd and the politicians who did back that, and helped us have a stronger voice in Welsh Government, and also the fact that we did engage, as I said, with the UK Government on the development of their strategy, particularly in relation to social security measures, because that of course is where we don’t have the powers, and we needed to influence that in terms of that engagement.

I think it’s also very important that you’ve mentioned other areas where, across the Welsh Government, we have made a difference, quite apart from the funding that has gone in, to all of the great work that’s done, for example, in terms of our foodbanks across Wales. And I think your colleague came to the Trussell Trust manifesto launch, where we heard some amazing examples of how foodbanks are going to actually look at how they can help to address the causes of poverty, the fact that they can help them through signposting to benefits entitlement and also of course to job opportunities, to actually enable them to move from needing to go to a foodbank to actually being independent and getting into work, getting the benefits they're entitled to. And I do think this is an important point that we need to make today—I'm sure others will make it—that the vast majority of the families who benefit from the scrapping, the removal of the two-child limit are working families. They’re working families; working families are going to our foodbanks.

I’ll pick up your point also about employment, because I think there's much good evidence, and I’ve provided it for you in terms of what works as well from the perspective of people living in poverty, but also from those organisations who engage in trying to address these issues as well. And I think that actually enabling people to get into work and employment is crucially important, and that’s something where of course I work across Welsh Government in terms of responsibility. So, employment provides individuals with the opportunity to earn a living, contribute to the overall economic activity rates, a crucial role in poverty reduction, life chances, better incomes, financial stability and security, and our employability programmes do provide that help in terms of people getting skills, increasing their long-term employability. And we’ve heard that the UK Government are launching a young person’s guarantee. Well, we launched ours in November 2021 and we’ve supported over 60,000 young people to access employability, but also Communities for Work, particularly helping those adults and children and the participation of those in Communities for Work, giving them an opportunity.

No-one should be in any doubt about the scale of the crisis facing so many children in Wales. Paediatricians, front-line charities and anti-poverty organisations are all saying the same thing, and they've been saying it for years: poverty is harming our children today, and unless we match vision with real focus and effective action, nothing changes tomorrow for the one in three children who are living in poverty. So, we have to be absolutely, brutally honest: progress on tackling child poverty is too slow, and, in some areas, almost impossible to track, because this report illustrates clearly that without the targets we cannot judge properly whether the strategy is working, whether it's shifting that dial sufficiently. The Senedd's Equality and Social Justice Committee, experts and advocates, including the children's commissioner, are clear that without an action plan and measurable targets, we cannot ensure that enough progress is being made. The Government lists commitments and projects, which are all well and good, but are these making the kind of difference we really need to see?

One area where this gap between aspiration and outcome is obvious is the Welsh benefits charter. It has huge potential, but we still don't know how many local authorities have systems in place to deliver it, and if councils are falling behind, do they need more support and resources? Families can't wait for another year of patchy implementation. Citizens Advice Cymru have said that more significant progress on completing phase 1 of the programme must happen. So, what actions are you taking to ensure this?

The school essentials grant is one of the grants that should be automatically delivered by the benefits charter and included in phase 1. However, as Save the Children Cymru have highlighted, that grant only addresses cost reduction. To maximise incomes, families need direct financial support. The calls for more ambitious steps to that end, like a Welsh child payment, are required according to all child poverty policy experts in Wales, and it's something that Plaid Cymru will begin to deliver in Government. So, why doesn't the Welsh Government agree on this?

The Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health have highlighted the lack of focus on child health inequalities in the report. Paediatricians have been warning of the impact of poverty on children's health, especially the youngest, for years, and a lack of clear focus has been noted on widening health inequalities in areas such as obesity, oral health and chronic conditions. So, how is the Welsh Government prioritising the health of children living in poverty specifically?

Diolch yn fawr, Sioned Williams. Also, it is important, and I welcome the fact that you recognise that we recognise the scale of child poverty. I've made that very clear in my statement today, and I absolutely take responsibility, in terms of our levers and powers and our resources, in terms of priorities, to shift that dial. I'm also grateful that you welcome the lived experience report; I think it does provide a very rich review from children and young people. It's very much a children's rights approach. We have adopted the children's rights approach here in Wales; it was very much embedded in our Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure 2011.

I will answer the key points and questions that you raised. I think the issues about targets, we've debated this, of course, in the past, and you know that we have published a monitoring framework as well on 2 December, which shows the ways in which we are seeking to monitor the impact of our progress report. The monitoring framework is an essential element of our child poverty strategy, and, of course, it's going to track progress against key indicators and commitments. So, our current targets for tackling poverty and improving outcomes are set out in our programme for government, they form part of our national milestones, and we report annually on our progress in achieving the commitments set out in the programme for government, and we also publish our 'Wellbeing of Wales' report every year, assessing our progress towards our national milestones. Of course, all of this came through our Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015; we have that ability to use that Act, to use those milestones and indicators to measure progress. They very much form part of a wider range of data that we use to measure progress. I think this is where we use our levers and we use our powers and responsibilities to measure progress. We don't have all the powers in order to set targets, so we need to make sure they're realistic and measurable targets. So, what we're doing is measuring what we can do in terms of our responsibilities.

I'm very glad that you've asked questions about the Welsh benefits charter, because that's something that I said in my opening remarks. The Welsh benefits charter was launched back in January 2024, and it is at the heart of a delivery model where we can have our Welsh welfare state. The key point, as I said, a person should only tell their story once to access their entitlements to Welsh benefits. I've given you the information about the route map—you're aware of it—April 2026. All 22 local authorities signed up to the Welsh benefits charter, and it does include the school essentials grant, and you'll see in the lived experience report feedback on how important the school essentials grant has been. But the fact that you will be able to get council tax reduction benefit, free school meals and the school essentials grant in each local authority by April 2026 is a key goal, and it will be an achievement that we should be measured against in terms of the impact that has. I regularly meet with the streamlining Welsh benefits steering group, and we're working very closely with all of the local authorities to address the needs and issues.

There's a lot to celebrate in this statement, not least the work that you've done on the Welsh benefits charter, which has so far reaped £209 million in extra benefits that have been paid out to people who are entitled to them. That's obviously a really good investment by the UK Government. Clearly, there is more to be done to ensure that that is available to families all over the country.

I also celebrate the £94 million invested in universal free school meals, which guarantees a hot midday meal for all primary school children. I'm certainly going to follow up Food Cardiff's Planet Card scheme, offering discounts against organic food in our farmers markets, but that's on the detail.

I'm very pleased to see you've mentioned the breastfeeding action plan in the report you published last week, because I think this is absolutely key to tackling child poverty in the context of formula costing up to £16 a tin, which simply isn't covered by the Healthy Start scheme. I know that women living in poverty are desperate to breastfeed and, in many cases, are not given that support, with obviously huge consequences.

I applaud the work of Scunthorpe, Grimsby and Goole health services, who’ve have seen a 10 per cent increase in breastfeeding rates, which I’m sure is not unrelated to the fact that they’ve got the UNICEF gold award for breastfeeding. Flying Start is indeed our flagship programme, but I am not aware of any of them having achieved the gold standard, or indeed having raised the breastfeeding rates of their families to the rate of that local population. So I wondered if you would consider setting a target for us to really drive up the rates in Wales, which have consistently historically been lower than in England. We really just need to do a lot better, because it is such an important start in life for young people.

Thank you very much, Jenny Rathbone, and thank you for welcoming and recognising the impact of having a Welsh benefits charter, with all 22 local authorities signing up to that. I would like to pay tribute to the lead cabinet member for finance, Councillor Anthony Hunt, the leader of Torfaen, who has helped, with his colleagues, through our local government partnership council, to drive this forward, to show the benefits of this just operationally, let alone getting the benefits to those who are entitled to them. Because income maximisation was a key objective. It still is. There is still £2 billion in unclaimed benefits in Wales every year, and we’re committed to ensuring that people in Wales claim every pound they’re entitled to—more money into people's pockets.

In this financial year, we are making £14 million available for the delivery of our income maximisation services. We’ve got the additional funding that’s provided by the UK spring statement, which is going to give us a 10 per cent increase in funding for these services. It’s very important that we’ve given our single advice fund providers a three-year certainty of their funding. This is the multi-annual funding with our new code of practice for the third sector that’s so important for the resilience of our advice services.

Thank you also for focusing on breastfeeding. There is work under way on the breastfeeding action plan. Recommendations are being considered. There is great work going on in Flying Start areas. I’d like to draw attention to the team in Blaenau Gwent, who’ve seen huge increases in breastfeeding rates. I’ve mentioned the initiative in Gwynedd, and also our two-year ‘Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales’ plan to prevent and reduce obesity. There’s a focus on Flying Start, there’s a focus on increasing breastfeeding rates, ensuring more babies benefit from breast milk, and the UNICEF Baby Friendly initiative. I would also say that, building on good practice in your constituency, in Cardiff and Vale, to identify opportunities, we're looking at this from a dietetic perspective in Flying Start across Wales.

With the greatest of respect, Cabinet Secretary, you will forgive me for not celebrating this strategy. We are just going round and round. Two years ago, the Equality and Social Justice Committee published a report. We only had six recommendations in that report, such was the concern that we had that we were going to be diving into the weeds if we did more than six recommendations.

That was two years ago. In that time, child poverty has gone up to 31 per cent. ‘Calling time on child poverty’, the title of the report, in the six recommendations, said we need to set targets with an action plan; we need to focus on children's rights; we need sustainable funding to programmes that work; a Welsh benefits system; childcare to be increased; and a Minister for babies, children and young people. So my question to you is why do we need a further strategy if we’ve got the evidence and the clear recommendations from a cross-party committee that could deliver to reduce child poverty.

I want to come back to the Welsh benefits system. You have been saying 22 local authorities have signed up to it, but 22 local authorities are not delivering on it, and that’s the difference. It is a postcode lottery whether you are part of the Welsh benefits system, so please could you respond to that?

Finally, I just want to say I was at a Children in Wales event—a few of us were there this afternoon—and I was really deeply ashamed that a major section in their manifesto is entitled ‘child poverty’. In 2025, I didn't think I'd be seeing that. And let's just remind ourselves what the Trussell Trust have done and what they say about child poverty. I don't want to celebrate foodbanks. I want to say we should scrap them. We should be in a position where we don't have any foodbanks across Wales. But this year, they have delivered the most emergency food parcels to children because of desperate hunger. We're in a terrible situation. Please, please can we see some action, and can you tell us what you're doing to ensure that those local authorities that are not delivering on the Welsh benefits charter are? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Diolch yn fawr, Jane Dodds. I've made it very clear that I do not celebrate the scale of child poverty here in Wales. I thank the Equality and Social Justice Committee for 'Calling time on child poverty', that very important report that I responded to. Indeed, in terms of the recommendations, much of what is in the child poverty strategy, which we, under the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure 2011, are bound—. And I'm glad that Governments are bound to not just present a child poverty strategy, but also to be monitored, to have these progress reports that you can then scrutinise and question us on.

I do go back to my child poverty progress report and make the point that, in my foreword, I say poverty is not inevitable. It's the product of political choices, and we choose to fight it with every lever, every resource and every ounce of determination we have, because every child in Wales deserves a fair chance.

Again, I have responded to the commitment made by the 22 local authorities in Wales to the Welsh benefits charter. It's a set of commitments by local government for a more coherent, person-centred design and delivery of our Welsh benefits, our grants, our payments, with authorities approving the charter. It is turning those commitments into reality. Again, we have a number of stakeholders who are on the steering group. It is vital that we have the Bevan Foundation, we have Age Cymru, we have Citizens Advice, we have the Trussell Trust, we have EYST, Disability Wales, the commissioners. They are all guiding and steering us along, and those who actually deliver on the Welsh benefits charter.

There are many authorities who are already delivering on this, those three benefits. That's phase 1. Only once should you have to apply for those three benefits. What's interesting is that we're now looking at whether there can be automatic allocation of funding for those benefits as well. It's getting the data to ensure that people don't have to then apply, but actually can automatically get the funding. I think that's important. We have also funded Policy in Practice—[Interruption.]

Sometimes, it's just best to walk out with the phone. That's okay. Carry on, Minister.

We've also funded Policy in Practice—you're aware of the social policy data-sharing work that they've done. We've got a take-up pilot that they've been engaged. They're using a low-income families tracker to identify local residents who are missing out on financial support. I look forward to reporting on that in due course.

What is clear is that we need to monitor and we need to take account of the impact of the work that we're doing. I hope you welcome the lived experience report and the monitoring framework as well, which is based, of course, on our well-being of future generations Act national indicators and milestones.

I think it is interesting when you look at the objectives of the child poverty strategy. I think they all align with the Equality and Social Justice Committee: putting money into people's pockets; creating a fair work nation; inclusion; kind, compassionate, non-stigmatising services; very much based on children's rights; and collaboration at a regional and local level.

Finally, Laura Anne Jones.

Diolch. Cabinet Secretary, this report makes for depressing reading after 26 years of failure in this regard. Wales once again standing out in the whole of the UK for the very wrong reasons.

In Wales, outside the glossy headlines, as has been said, one in three children still lives in poverty—31 per cent, as you said. After 26 years of failure, nothing has changed the outcomes that actually matter. Your own lived experience report tells the truth: families cannot access services, childcare is patchy, especially for those with disabilities, foodbanks are becoming the norm. Yet somehow this strategy reads like a victory parade. A victory for what, exactly? And let us talk about the families that you're too terrified to mention—those hard-working, low-paid families that often are the ones that you're quick to tax, but often are the ones who can't access, and fail to reach, those thresholds that you're setting. So, they can't access Flying Start, for example—no targeted support. These are the very people who work every hour available and end up worse off than households who don't work at all. This is Government designed for unfairness, and you know it.

And yes, the two-child cap was unfair. Reform would support lifting it for working families and help those out of poverty, because it's those families that are struggling while others are better off not working at all. That is the reality that your report fails to confront. And I just want to say that no child in this day and age should have to face poverty. Every child should have a place that they can call home. There are some excellent community initiatives out there, such as Cold Barn Farm in Trevethin—brilliant. But their real innovation has been born out of absolute desperation that this Government has done nothing to address over the last 26 years. You have utterly failed in your past election promise to bring people out of poverty, and I hope that you regret that. And I hope that we'll see not report after report after report, but next time there's a Government in place, we'll see action first. Diolch.

Well, Laura Anne Jones, I don't know what you and the Government and the party that you were previously a part of can actually show and demonstrate you have delivered in terms of tackling child poverty, except extremely negative comments today, when what we actually are seeking is to tackle poverty, which is a priority for this Welsh Government.

And, of course, it is a cross-party policy issue. We funded £1.5 million—. I'm glad you mention innovation, because we are funding a child poverty innovation and supporting communities grant, with many projects—and I'm sure, probably, in your region as well—that we funded. And that innovation is about strengthening organisations for collaboration to address child poverty, and improving that understanding of what works, as I said, with the lived experience, building on funding we provided in the previous financial—. Twenty-two projects funded to strengthen the capacity of organisations.

Now, if you met with the external reference group of child poverty organisations at the forefront—and I'm sure that is something you might choose to do—they are advising and guiding us on what our priorities would be. We've got a 'communities of practice' approach to enabling collaboration to address child poverty.

So, ending child poverty must be an absolute priority, finally, Llywydd, for Governments at all levels. That's why I'm so proud that we are working with the Welsh local authorities with our Welsh benefits charter, and we're using all our levers to their full extent. We are monitoring it very clearly through our framework, and we are listening to what we can do to actually use our levers, responsibilities and budget to most effect, to tackle the scourge of child poverty in Wales, which I am passionately committed to.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

The legislative consent motion on the Tobacco and Vapes Bill is next. The Minister for Mental Health and Well-being is moving the motion—Sarah Murphy.

The UK Tobacco and Vapes Bill provides us with a unique opportunity to tackle smoking and the growing issue of youth vaping. Despite the real progress that we have made to reduce smoking levels in Wales, it continues to be a leading cause of preventable disease and premature death in Wales. So, this Bill will create the UK's first smoke-free generation by making it an offence to sell tobacco products to anyone born on or after 1 January 2009. It will significantly strengthen the tools available to enforcement officers, particularly through a new licensing scheme, for anyone who wants to sell tobacco or vape products in the future, helping to enforce the new rules and to take action against illegal sales. There will be much stricter rules around vaping, including the advertising of nicotine and vape products, so that we can prevent them being targeted towards children and young people.

Dirprwy Lywydd, this Bill will therefore enable us to take action on vapes. Sadly, we have seen a significant increase in the number of children and young people vaping, as well as rises in the number of illegal products on our streets. The most recent data suggests almost 7 per cent of secondary school pupils in Wales are using vapes at least once a week, and by the age of 16, 16 per cent are vaping weekly. Decisive action is needed to tackle these issues, and I'm clear that the Tobacco and Vapes Bill will give us a vital opportunity to do so.

As all nations of the UK want to eradicate the harm from tobacco and to tackle youth vaping, this Bill provides the opportunity to comprehensively and significantly improve public health in Wales, in partnership with the rest of the UK. There is also currently a patchwork of legislation relating to these products, in both reserved and devolved areas, which this Bill will strengthen, consolidate and update, and this is particularly the case in relation to enforcement.

To ensure the provisions remain up to date, the Bill contains comprehensive regulation-making powers for Welsh Ministers. Examples of where we intend to bring forward legislation include the display of tobacco, vapes and nicotine products in shops, and the licensing system for retailers.

For issues such as vape product requirements and improving the safety standards of tobacco and vapes, the Bill provides that the power to make regulations will rest with the Secretary of State, but I'm content with this approach as there is a clear rationale for maintaining continuity and consistency across the UK. That is the reason.

Dirprwy Lywydd, I'm grateful for the Health and Social Care Committee and the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee's scrutiny of the Bill, as well as hearing Members' views today. Members will want to know why I have scheduled the LCM debate today, when there are ongoing debates in the House of Lords and the Bill is not fully settled. Holding this debate today ensures that the Senedd views are heard and represented in the passage of this important legislation, especially as the UK parliamentary timetable for this Bill could extend beyond the end of this sixth Senedd. If further amendments are made to this Bill, I will ensure a further legislative consent memorandum is tabled.

Moving to implementation, if this Bill is passed, I will ensure the Welsh Government continues to work closely with our partners and stakeholders in Wales, many of whom are in the gallery today, as it is my ambition to ensure the measures are as straightforward as possible for consumers, businesses and enforcing authorities. Dirprwy Lywydd, I recommend that the Senedd supports this Bill. Diolch yn fawr.

I call on the Chair of the Health and Social Care Committee, Peter Fox.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. My contribution today relates to the first two memoranda for this Bill. In producing our reports on these memoranda, we have considered the views of stakeholders and heard oral evidence from the Minister. We made seven recommendations to the Welsh Government, which are set out in full in our report.

I would like to focus my comments today mainly on the impacts of vaping and nicotine on young people. The rising trend in vaping amongst young people, including those who have not previously smoked, is worrying and needs to be addressed. We were particularly concerned to hear about children reaching secondary school age already addicted to vaping.

This is an issue of concern, not just to us as a committee, but to young people themselves. I would like to take this opportunity to draw Members' and the Minister's attention to a petition submitted on behalf of the 1st Aberdare (St Fagans) Scouts, which called for a ban on sweet-style marketing and branding to stop underage vaping. This petition was initiated by the young people in the Scouts and shows their commitment to advocating for the safety of children and young people across Wales. I know their Scout leaders are very proud of the dedication and initiative they have shown in leading this work as young people themselves.

While vaping is less harmful than smoking tobacco, the long-term effects are not yet known, and there appears to be a lack of understanding amongst young people about the possible harms associated with vaping, including long-term nicotine addiction.

Recommendation 2 called for the Welsh Government and its partners to provide clearer messaging for children and young people about the potential long-term health risks of nicotine addiction and vaping. I'm very pleased that the Minister accepted this recommendation.

Whilst we recognise and support the Bill's focus on preventing young people from ever starting to smoke or vape, we heard concerning evidence about the current generation of young people who are already addicted to nicotine. As such, the Welsh Government must ensure that the appropriate support is available to these young people.

Finally, I’d like to turn to the one recommendation rejected by the Minister, and that was recommendation 5. We believe strong enforcement will be key to the success of the legislation, but we have concerns about the challenges facing local authorities in this regard, particularly in terms of limited resources. Funding from the UK Government to support the smoke-free generation and youth-vaping measures has resulted in a Barnett consequential, I understand, of £5 million for the Welsh Government. As this funding is unhypothecated, we believe the full amount should be directed towards the enforcement of these measures. In rejecting this recommendation, the Minister says she was considering carefully the options on how best to support the measures in the Bill and the wider tobacco and vapes agenda. I wonder, Minister, in your response, could you elaborate on what these options are, and update the Senedd on any decisions already taken or to be taken before the end of this Senedd? Diolch.

I call now on the chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, Mike Hedges.

Diolch Deputy Presiding Officer. The committee reported on the Welsh Government's legislative consent memorandum in February and July of this year. We cannot understate the significance of the policy proposed in the Tobacco and Vapes Bill. There are a wide range of views on that policy.

There are, we believe, 21 powers in the Bill delegated to the Secretary of State to act in devolved areas. Fifteen of those require the consent of Welsh Ministers. Nevertheless, this represents a very significant transfer of power away from the Senedd. Where the Bill requires that the Secretary of State obtains Welsh Ministers' consent to exercise a particular power, the Senedd will have no role in scrutinising or approving that consent. At some point in the future, Members of the Senedd can expect to be alerted that a future Welsh Minister or a future Welsh Government has given his or her consent to a change in devolved Welsh policy after the fact. This approach reduces the flexibility of the Welsh Ministers and Senedd to act to take account of Welsh circumstances.

Here's one example of such a power. Under the amended clause 45, the Secretary of State can extend provisions that apply to tobacco products to include any device that enables tobacco to be consumed. In other words, the UK Parliament can resolve to ban new tobacco products, and the Senedd will have no role in making that decision. The Minister's arguments in favour of such powers centre on the benefits of regulatory alignment between Wales and the rest of the UK. I ask her to clarify to the Senedd today whether she explored alternative approaches to regulatory alignment that didn't involve the UK Government and future Welsh Governments determining significant changes to health policy in Wales without involving the Senedd.

The Bill also confers a significant number of regulation-making powers on the Welsh Ministers. A number of these powers enable Welsh Government to amend primary legislation via regulations. These regulations are a significant delegation of power from the Senedd to Welsh Ministers. This warrants being drawn to the Senedd’s attention in and of itself.

But this delegation of powers from the Senedd to the Welsh Ministers is being carried out via a UK Government Bill, so the Senedd is not afforded the opportunity to consider that delegation in detail, or to consider amendments to it. For example, new clause 149 gives the Welsh Ministers the power to designate places or vehicles in Wales as vape free if they are already smoke free. This power is subject to a duty to consult. I ask the Minister to confirm whether she's content that provisions in the Bill that confer powers on the Welsh Ministers have been subject to suitably robust and thorough scrutiny in the UK Parliament as is proportionate with their significance for health policy in Wales?

I just want to set out that the Welsh Conservatives will be having a free vote on this matter. But let me be absolutely clear from the outset: I support sensible, proportionate regulations that protect children and help adult smokers move away from cigarettes. That's why I'm not opposed to vaping as a harm-reduction tool. For many adults, vaping has become the route to move away from smoking, and that must not be undermined. But they have also done some serious damage, vapes have, in terms of our children and the increase in youth vaping, and that is something that I do support in the Bill, the measures around that. But I do have serious concerns about the generational smoking ban and the potential creation of a two-tiered system across Wales, and I do think it is taking away people's personal responsibilities.

I do agree, as I said, on the vaping elements. I agree about the elements on licensing and advertising. They should be put away, the same as cigarettes are. They shouldn't be up on the counter with everything else. I agree with them stopping being distributed for free to young people and to adults to try and get them to try them—I agree with that—and I agree that we need to close the loopholes to stop some of these companies getting around that legislation. I think that is very important.

But I think one of the biggest problems and things we need to address, as part of this, is actually the way that vapes are advertised. Most of them, as we know, are advertised with Coca-Cola flavour, gummy bear flavour, Haribo flavour, and they appeal to young people. They have cartoon imagery on them. They're designed in the style of toys. They have confectionery branding, of sweets, and they are youth orientated in terms of their descriptions. I think if we are very serious about solving that, that is a key element that needs to stop. A thing of mine, which I think is very important, is that they should mimic tobacco. You can only get tobacco or menthol cigarettes. That should be all that's available in vapes. Nothing else should be wider, because I think, if you are trying to move people off cigarettes, why should you be offering a wider variety of flavours? You should stick to what you want.

But I do want to talk as well about—I think—the troubling part of the ban, which is the generational smoking ban. I do think this is state overreach, and I don't think it is going to deal with the root cause of the problem. As I said, it is going to create a two-tiered system, and I do think if the test is pressure on the NHS for banning things, what should we ban next? Should we ban fast food? Should we ban alcohol? Should we ban sugar? [Interruption.] Everything—yes, let's ban everything, because everything creates pressure on the NHS, and I think that is a problem, but we cannot start banning things because it puts pressure on the NHS. We are a country that believes in personal responsibility, and I think with personal responsibility people should make those informed choices themselves. I do not think it is the job of the state to do that. What it is right for the Government to do is to put it out there, making people have those informed choices, providing what is right, what is wrong, what's unhealthy, what is right. Because I think that is what we should be doing. We shouldn't be saying we're banning something. We should be saying, 'This is what the harm is it can cause to you,' as Government, 'This is how we will help you come off smoking.' But banning it is not the way to do it.

I just want to say a very few words just to demonstrate our support to the core principles of this Bill, and therefore the LCM. Indeed, I am pleased that much of what's contained within the Bill echoes and aligns with much of what I said in a debate here in the Senedd around 18 months ago, when I put forward a debate for the establishment of a register of nicotine and tobacco retailers—a motion that was passed unanimously by this Senedd. As I noted at that point, smoking is an addiction that starts during childhood. With most smokers in Wales, their first cigarette was smoked when they were either children or teenagers. The fact remains that smoking is the main cause of preventable deaths in Wales to this day, with 5,600 people dying as a result of smoking every year still. I've also raised the fact that school pupils very often raise vaping as one of the main concerns that they have, and the fact that vapes are available in shops that aren't regulated and can therefore include all sorts of chemicals and other dangerous ingredients and are packaged in a way that is deliberately appealing to children. That's why I reject the argument that James just put forward, and James was saying that it's the responsibility of the individual and that it should be a personal choice based on an educated choice, but children don't have that choice. They haven't had that same level of understanding of the damage of cigarettes or vapes on children. These things are specifically targeted at them, with things, as James himself said, like gummy bear flavour—I don't know how that tastes. How can they do that? It makes no sense that they should have the freedom to do this, and that's why we need legislation to prevent them from targeting children and to stop children becoming addicted to nicotine at such an early age. So, it's about time we saw action here, and I welcome what this Bill seeks to achieve and I will therefore support it.

But I do want to note for the record, in accordance with what Mike said earlier, our concern that we are once again seeing legislation in a devolved area coming from Westminster. I appreciate that the devolution settlement doesn't allow Wales to legislate fully in this area, but this is an argument for further devolution to Wales, rather than removing powers from Wales, as has happened almost without exception in every LCM, with Ministers in Westminster creating legislation in areas that are devolved to our national Senedd. I raised this issue several times during the scrutiny process, and I'm grateful to the Minister, who also shares my concerns, I hope, in ensuring that there must be consent from this Senedd before action is taken, not just consultation, with the exception of clause 27, but we can live with that. I wonder, therefore, whether the Minister can put on record why it wasn't possible for Wales to develop such a Bill ourselves in this area.

I will be voting in favour of this LCM today because, as the Wales Tobacco Control Alliance has said, the Bill has the potential to transform the health of future generations in Wales. And members of the alliance have been at the Senedd, Dirprwy Lywydd, through the day today and are in the public gallery at the moment, showing just how much this means to them, because they realise how important it is to the health of our communities. And all of us here in the Chamber today should be very familiar, I should think, with the terrible toll taken on the health of the people of Wales by smoking and, indeed, the health inequalities aspects. In the Senedd, I chair the cross-party group on smoking and health and also the cross-party group on poverty, and, in the last year, we've done work on the links between smoking and people living in our most disadvantaged communities. On the current figures, 13 per cent of the adult population of Wales smoke, but when we delve a little deeper we find that for those living in the bottom fifth of areas by deprivation measures that rises to 22 per cent. And 30 per cent of social housing residents in Wales smoke, compared to 8 per cent of home owners. So, I think it's absolutely clear just how important this LCM and the Bill are to health inequalities here in our country, and the Tobacco and Vapes Bill will go a long way to addressing those issues.

Also, Dirprwy Lywydd, the Bill will allow us, in Wales, to expand our smoke-free public places, building on smoke-free hospital grounds and areas outside school gates, which, again, I think will be very welcome and significant. And as we've heard already, an awful lot of our very young people, sadly, become addicted to smoking while they are still young, and some 89 per cent of smokers in Wales had their first cigarette before turning 18 years of age. And we do know that the tobacco industry is very cynical, and deliberately makes the product highly addictive, not caring that most of the users of the product will die or be debilitated through that tobacco use. It's a very cynical industry and a very cynical business, which legislators, I believe, need to do a lot more to significantly and meaningfully challenge than is currently the case, and this LCM and the Bill will enable us as legislators to fulfil those responsibilities.

I also think, as we've heard during this debate, Dirprwy Lywydd, that the dangers of vaping are becoming more and more evident, and, again, the way that young people are targeted and harmed is becoming more and more obvious, and I'm sure I'm not the only Member in this Chamber who's visited a number of primary schools in my constituency to be told that addiction to vaping is a real and growing problem amongst primary school children, let alone what we see in our secondary education settings.

Like John Griffiths, I will be voting in favour of this Bill. It was Rishi Sunak's most popular proposal—certainly as far as I was concerned—and it fell victim to the general election and it's good that the current UK Government is picking this up. It's not something that we can do our own, because it would just simply lead to smuggling across our porous borders, but we cannot afford to go on having generations of tobacco smokers, which means having generations of babies and children who are imbibing, having their lungs poisoned from the passive smoking that they get from adults.

I hear what James Evans is saying about banning things, but, at the very least, we need to be taxing those products that end up incurring such a huge cost to society. So, that includes the adulterated food that's called ultra-processed food, and we can have a separate debate about that in the future. But the fact is that it is the case that vaping is being used as the last gasp of the tobacco industry, as a recruiting sergeant for young people. Nicotine is incredibly addictive. I've seen it in my own son. He has given up smoking, but he still finds it incredibly difficult to kick the vaping, and I know that he is not the only person who's struggling in that regard.

And we simply—. And as well as that, we know that, in my constituency anyway, the vaping companies are fronts for illegal tobacco and illegal drugs and therefore there is no place for them, and we absolutely have to do something about this, and I absolutely welcome this initiative and I hope that we will pass it in the Senedd.

And I call on the Minister to reply—Sarah Murphy.

Thank you very much, and to everybody for their remarks today. In closing this debate, I really would like to thank all the Members for their considered comments this afternoon and lots of conversations that we've had in the run-up to this.

I'll make a response to some of the points raised. Just to start with Peter Fox, it was really helpful to be able to come in front of the Health and Social Care Committee, because a couple of the issues that you raised with me, for example, supporting young people who may already be vaping to be able to come off of vaping, I took very seriously. We've gone away and I want to say that we have now published comprehensive curriculum and advice documents, including support for parents and carers, and a toolkit for teachers, containing information and resources that they can use on vaping. Also, on quitting smoking, our Help Me Quit service is available to anyone aged 12 or older, and offers that free behavioural support and nicotine replacement therapy as well. On vapes, Public Health Wales are implementing a pathway to support those addicted to nicotine who don't use tobacco within the context of the Help Me Quit system. So, we've tried to put all of those things in place, as you said, because I am aware that there are young people who are already addicted, unfortunately, and we need to help them. That's where I come from on that.

I also want to say a huge congratulations, and I'm very proud and Scouts Cymru should be very, very proud of the 1st Aberdare (St Fagans) Scouts. I think that's absolutely brilliant to see young people engaging in democracy, and that's who this smoke-free generation is for. So, congratulations on that. Well done, I think that's fantastic.

In terms of the funding, one of the recommendations—. I accepted all, but on the one on Barnett, as you know, the Welsh Government has received consequential funding from the UK Government in relation to the actions being taken in England. As you know, in Wales, Cabinet makes decisions about how funding is allocated to the Welsh Government as a consequence of spending decisions by the UK Government in devolved areas. That is standard practice. However, I can say today that I've got some very good news, that the Cabinet Secretary has signed off the additional funding for trading standards, so that they are funded now—I'm very pleased—to be able to go forward and implement. I believe it's also going to fund some apprenticeships as well, so that we can roll this out across Wales. So, I hope that, again, that answers some of the concerns that the Health and Social Care Committee had. Like I said, I took them very seriously.

I'll give you another minute.

I know, but there are so many points—

I know, but it's important that we also keep to our time.

Okay, I will say then, on the delegation of powers in this UK Bill, I continue to believe the UK Bill offers the best way forward for Wales, both in terms of the achieved regulatory alignment with the rest of the UK, the constitutional safeguards we have achieved, and also efficiently handling the mixture of devolved and reserved elements of this policy. So, I hope that goes some way to answering Mabon and the LJC.

If I can just then—. Dirprwy Lywydd, I'm just going to cut to some of the comments that have been made in relation to whether or not this is overreach, and whether people today are still in two minds about whether or not to support this. It is our job in Government to listen to the people of Wales, and the people of Wales back stronger action. Forty-three per cent say Governments aren't doing enough, and, actually, in terms of the key measures, 65 per cent support a smoke-free generation, and a polluter-pays tobacco levy is actually supported by 75 per cent.

I want to say a huge thank you to Llanyrafon Primary School, who came in and saw me today. They've actually given me a book of poems about smoking, written by schoolchildren across Wales, because they are the smoke-free generation that we're doing this for. This is not an attack on existing smokers. So, James, what you're saying is wrong. People who currently smoke can continue to smoke. There is support for them if they don't want to do it. The point is, if you ask any smoker, any vaper, 'Do you wish you'd never started?', they'll tell you they wish they'd never started, and that's what the children of Wales want too—

You need to conclude, Minister, because there are no exemptions for Ministers either.

Diolch yn fawr. No, that's fine.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is objection, therefore, we'll defer voting under this item until voting time.

In accordance with Standing Order 12.24, unless a Member objects, the two motions under items 8 and 9 on the general principles and financial resolution of the Building Safety (Wales) Bill will be grouped for debate, but with separate votes. I've not heard any objections.

Therefore, I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government to move the motions. Jayne Bryant.

Diolch, Deputy Llywydd, and I move the motions before the Senedd. The Grenfell Tower tragedy is a poignant and devastating reminder of the necessity of getting building safety right. Sadly, recent events in Hong Kong have served to underline the potential terrible results of external fire spread. I know that the thoughts of all of us in this Chamber remain with those who have been affected by such tragedies, and it's imperative that we learn from these events and act to ensure that such loss of life never happens here in Wales.

I want to thank the Chairs and members of the committees who've worked on this Bill: the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee for their considered recommendations; the Finance Committee for their robust assessment of the legislation; and the Local Government and Housing Committee for their wide-ranging, detailed consideration of our policy intentions. I will write to each of you to respond to all the points that you have raised. I also want to thank the many partners who've worked with us to develop the Bill and to support committees with their scrutiny.

I particularly welcome the recommendation that the Senedd should agree to the general principles of the Bill. Three key principles are fundamental to this Bill: safety, accountability and resident voice. I am pleased that these principles are supported and I welcome this opportunity to respond to the consideration of the three committees. Again, thanks to all those committees for their very detailed work in this important area. We received the 27 recommendations and conclusions just over a week ago and we will respond in writing before Christmas. I do not have time to address each recommendation today, Deputy Llywydd, but as I said, I will do that in writing. But I'm happy to confirm that the Government accepts or accepts in principle the majority of the recommendations and I will briefly respond to some of the key points now.

We support the consolidation and codification of housing law in Wales and work is under way to consider some of the practical implementations of this. Future consolidation projects will be a matter for the next Government as it develops its programme to improve the accessibility of Welsh law.

I'm happy to accept or accept in principle all of the Finance Committee's recommendations and will work with the committee to make the costs and benefits as transparent as possible. The committee has asked that I clarify the funding that will be made available to local authorities. My officials are already working with the local authorities and the Welsh Local Government Association to re-examine the costs based on a regional operational model. We will use what we learn from this to update the regulatory impact assessment and to inform future decisions about the total package of funding for building safety authorities.

I recognise the workforce challenges faced by local authorities. We're working with them to baseline the current skills capacity and to co-produce a workforce plan focused on issues of recruitment, retention and skills development. The plan will feed into investment in skills and apprenticeship training under the new regime, so that we have a cohesive approach to workforce planning.

I call now on the Chair of the Local Government and Housing Committee, John Griffiths.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I’m pleased to speak in the debate today as Chair of the Local Government and Housing Committee, which undertook Stage 1 scrutiny of this Bill. The Bill represents an important part of the Welsh Government’s response to the Grenfell Tower tragedy. All of our hearts go out, I know, to those affected by that terrible tragedy, which claimed the lives of 72 people more than eight years ago, underlining the vital importance of establishing a new building safety regime for Wales to minimise the likelihood of such tragedies occurring here in the future.

Dirprwy Lywydd, I would like to thank everyone who provided evidence to our committee for their valuable contributions, helping to shape our report. I would especially like to thank those people experiencing difficult times due to building safety issues affecting their residential properties for sharing their personal experiences with us.

In light of the strong support we heard for the aims of this Bill, we recommend that the Senedd agrees its general principles, but, in a number of areas, we did identify concerns. The Bill proposes a new regulatory framework for three different categories of buildings based on height, as well as houses in multiple occupation, or HMOs. The first two categories, to which the more onerous requirements will apply, are those over 11m or five storeys in height, and there are around 629 of those in Wales. However, there are around 51,000 of the lower height category 3 buildings, as well as many HMOs. There is, therefore, a relatively limited number of high buildings in Wales to which the new framework will apply, whereas a very substantial number of lower height buildings would be captured. While all those who provided evidence were supportive of a new regulatory framework to promote structural and fire safety within category 1 and category 2 buildings, some felt the additional regulatory burden of the proposed new framework would be disproportionate to the benefits for category 3 buildings and HMOs. As a committee, we agree with that view: that the case is yet to be made for the application of the new regime to all category 3 buildings and HMOs. We therefore recommend that the Welsh Government reconsiders the proposed approach, and suggest that if lower height buildings are to be included, a risk-based approach is adopted to ensure proportionality. This change of approach would ensure that the significant resources required to implement the new regime effectively are appropriately focused on higher risk buildings.

Difficulties envisaged with the proposed approach to implementing this Bill were further highlighted to us in respect of the insufficient number of suitably qualified and experienced professionals to carry out the full requirements of the Bill. We therefore welcome the Cabinet Secretary's commitment to address gaps in capacity, for example by developing a building safety workforce plan and establishing a degree apprenticeship scheme for environmental health officers. We’ve recommended that further work is required by the Welsh Government to fully understand the resource implications of the Bill, including consultation on the workforce development plan, as soon as possible. The Bill will undoubtedly increase demand for the currently limited pool of suitably qualified and experienced personnel, and drive up fees. We heard that this will lead to difficulties for local authorities to recruit and retain suitably qualified staff due to the limitations on local authority salaries. We recommend that the Welsh Government works with local authorities to address this concern.

I call on the Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, Mike Hedges.

Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer. Today we are debating the general principles of the Building Safety (Wales) Bill, which, if passed, will form one part of a plethora of building safety legislation, both primary and secondary, enacted both in this place and by the UK Parliament. It would be remiss of me not to highlight that this Bill formed part of the response to the Grenfell fire disaster that took place in June 2017, over eight years ago.

When the Welsh Government sought the Senedd's consent in 2022 for the UK Government to bring forward legislation on its behalf in the form of the Building Safety Bill, it argued that making use of this legislative consent process in respect of the design and construction phase would be the quickest and most effective way to establish a building safety regime in Wales. The unacceptable delay between the Grenfell tragedy and this debate suggests that this was not, ultimately, the case.

The Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee believes that this Welsh Government should have created a building safety regime solely via Welsh legislation, rather than the hybrid regime that we have before us. Not only was the Senedd's opportunity to scrutinise important legislation considerably curtailed, as is typical of the legislative consent process, the Welsh Government may well have been able to establish a building safety regime more quickly had it introduced legislation itself. I urge the Welsh Government to reflect on the lessons learned from this experience.

Turning to the Bill before us today, in its general assessment of the Bill, the committee has concluded that the sheer extent of the powers delegated to Welsh Ministers place the balance of power inappropriately in favour of the executive. There are 10 Henry VIII powers in the legislation. Some of those powers are amongst the broadest that we have scrutinised in this Senedd. Sections 14 and 16, in particular, allow the Welsh Ministers to fundamentally alter the nature of the building safety regime set out in the Bill by regulations. This includes conferring powers on the Welsh Ministers to change, add, remove or amend the description of 'building'. For example, they allow the Welsh Government to change the definition to include vehicles, vessels or other moveable objects, subject to the Senedd's approval. This description of 'building' underpins the entire regulatory framework set out in the Bill. It is therefore possible that a future Welsh Government could use these powers to wholly alter the scope of this legislation, with only the limited scrutiny that comes with a regulation approval process as a check and balance to it doing so.

Representing the Finance Committee, I call on Sam Rowlands.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'm speaking as a member of the Finance Committee on behalf of the Chair, who is unable to be here today. Before I do begin my contribution, the committee is disappointed that we've not had a formal response from the Cabinet Secretary to our recommendations, particularly as our report was laid in good time, well before the deadline. Early in this Senedd, as a committee, we made the point that the Government should respond to our recommendations before asking Members to authorise spending arising from a Bill. I think it's an important principle that has been commonplace for Ministers to respond appropriately and it's a real shame that the Cabinet Secretary has been unable to continue this good practice ahead of today's debate.

Nonetheless, we welcome the Government's commitment to improving building safety and accountability as part of the wider response to the Grenfell Tower tragedy, which colleagues have ably outlined. While we support the Bill's principles, we have concerns about the quality, transparency and completeness of the cost estimates in the regulatory impact assessment. Crucially, it did not provide a breakdown of costs for each of the Bill's provisions, nor did it sufficiently explain on whom the costs would fall. This made it difficult to understand the financial impact of the Bill on local authorities, fire and rescue authorities, and the housing industry. The Cabinet Secretary provided a breakdown of these estimates following our evidence session, but we want this information to be included in the revised RIA.

We also had concerns about the methodology used to estimate the Bill's costs. The RIA provides high-level figures without sufficient explanation of how these were derived, what activities they cover, or what assumptions underpin them. We acknowledge the absence of published research in this area and the Cabinet Secretary's reliance on a consultancy firm to develop costings, but more detail is needed on the financial modelling used, and we have asked for this to be included in a revised RIA.

Turning to how the Bill will be funded, we note the Cabinet Secretary's assurance that support for local authorities to meet any additional financial burden arising from the Bill is at the forefront of her mind. The Cabinet Secretary has indeed, again today, indicated that Government funding will be made available to local authorities, but it's unclear whether this is new or from existing budgets. We have requested clarity on this point, and the Cabinet Secretary may be able to provide some of that clarity here today also.

The Welsh Conservatives welcome this Bill. It takes an important step towards bringing clarity and consistency to the role of duty holders responsible for our buildings after the heartbreaking tragedy of the Grenfell fire. It is important that any confusion about who is responsible for identifying and managing safety risks simply cannot be allowed to continue.

We also welcome the way this Bill empowers residents. Too many people bought their homes without knowing the full picture on safety. At a time when Wales faces a housing crisis and when more high-rise homes will be needed to meet that demand, we must restore confidence in the market and give residents access to important information on safety and a clear path to raise concerns. These are all strong and sensible steps in the right direction.

We particularly support the strengthened enforcement powers. These tools give local authorities and fire services the ability to step in when safety is at risk. If we want accountability to mean something, then it is right that our authorities must have the power to enforce it. However, with regard to enforcement, from the Stage 1 report, we can see that many stakeholders raised a similar concern—that when you divide enforcement between two bodies, as has been proposed here, there is a risk of decisions being siloed. Whilst the fire authorities clearly have their technical expertise, I think that given the challenges faced by them over the last few years, it is right that serious consideration is given as to whether they are in a position to achieve what is asked of them.

Groups like the all-Wales housing expert panel, Local Authority Building Control and the Welsh Local Government Association have all warned that without clarity on who does what, then we could end up with duplicated work, mixed messages and uncertainty about who takes the lead. They've called for clearer co-ordination, regional flexibility and a system that avoids tripping over existing laws, like the Housing Act 2004. This is an area that definitely needs more consideration.

Fire risks and structural risks don't live in separate boxes; they're part of the same picture. If we're going to keep people safe, then we need to manage those risks as a whole. Some have pointed to the approach in England, where one unified regulator handles everything, and suggestions have been made that Wales takes a similar path.

I understand, and I can see the Cabinet Secretary's point of view, that creating a brand-new body won't magically give us more capacity. However, if we're not going to build a new structure, then we need to be very clear and introduce reliable mechanisms that show exactly how enforcement works and how our organisations will carry out their duties in practice. I've also noted the warning from the WLGA. They have said plainly that local authorities shouldn't be asked to take on the role of the building safety authority. They're already stretched, facing limited technical expertise and workforce challenges, and therefore would struggle with these new responsibilities.

For too many years, the gaps in our building safety regime have been visible, and the consequences of inaction have been tragic. Grenfell exposed not only catastrophic failings in one building, but deep structural weaknesses in how safety has been regulated, monitored and enforced across the UK. It has taken far too long to bring forward comprehensive legislation to prevent such a disaster from ever happening again. That delay has weighed heavily on residents who have lived with uncertainty, fear and financial anxiety.

This Bill represents a long-overdue attempt to put in place a clearer, more transparent and more accountable system. Its central principles—stronger oversight, better information and a clear chain of responsibility—are principles we support. Wales needs a regime that ensures every multi-occupied building is safe and that residents have confidence in the protections that are supposed to safeguard their homes.

The introduction of three building categories recognises that not all buildings carry the same risk, and we welcome a proportionate approach. The creation of accountable persons, the golden thread of building safety information, and regular assessments by qualified professionals are all important steps towards protecting residents and preventing the kinds of failures that have caused so much distress elsewhere.

However, as the Local Government and Housing Committee highlighted, support for the Bill must be matched by clarity about the workforce and resources required to implement it. Without the necessary inspectors, surveyors, fire safety professionals and administrative capacity, the system risks being strong on paper but weak in practice. We must fully understand what this regime will demand from local authorities, from fire services, from social landlords and the sector as a whole.

We are also clear that costs cannot simply be passed on to tenants and leaseholders. The committee stressed the need for strong legal protections, and we support that call. Residents should not be burdened with unreasonable charges for failings they didn't create. Ensuring transparency through the golden thread is welcome, but information must be accessible, must be meaningful and genuinely useful, not overwhelming or technical to the public to point of being unusable.

We also believe residents must have a stronger statutory voice. The requirement for a resident engagement strategy is positive, but we'd like to see explicit recognition of tenants and leaseholders as consultees in the decision making that affects the safety of their homes. Importantly, while improving standards for new and future buildings is essential, we can't ignore the scale of existing problems. Of the 161 buildings where major developers are responsible for remediation, only four have been completed. This pace is nowhere near acceptable. Residents have already waited too long, and this Bill must be part of a wider push to ensure that remediation is carried out swiftly and fairly.

Many in the Siambr have reminded us why we are here today. We must remember the 72 people who died in the Grenfell fire disaster, the youngest of whom was Logan Gomes, who was stillborn when his mother was admitted to hospital after the fire. That's why we're here today. But this needs pace. We are still here, eight years after Grenfell, and many years after a few of us in the Siambr have constantly raised this issue. I fully support the principles of the Bill. We desperately need a forward-looking safety regime for multi-occupied buildings. But this is about the future, not about the crisis we're facing right now. It is too long coming. There is very, very severe frustration in the people who live in those buildings around here.

Innocent leaseholders remain trapped in homes they cannot sell, faced with costs they cannot bear, and exposed to risks that they cannot fix themselves. According to the Welsh Government's own remediation dashboard—and this has already been mentioned by Mabon—we've got 163 buildings that developers are responsible for remediating. And then we hear that only four of those buildings have been completed. Four out of 163.

The Welsh Government has stated that remediation won't cost leaseholders, but it already is. It's costing them their mental health. It's costing them their emotional well-being. Groups such as the Welsh Cladiators have told us of waking watches that cost, on top of that, thousands every month. In Swansea, we know that Altamar leaseholders are so frustrated with Bellway Homes that they have hired solicitors, and are contemplating legal action under the Defective Premises Act 1972, because that's the only route left when Government fails. People are desperate. To quote residents mentioned in the local government committee's report,

'Our lives have been put on hold for eight years.'

'There was a pact that these builders signed up to; it's completely unenforceable. Welsh Government have taken no action at all'.

'An excuse is given, an excuse is accepted; end of.'

And that remains the crux of the issues. The commitment by developers to at least start works by the end of 2026 is not legally binding. It's dependent on developer goodwill. And where has that goodwill gotten us? Four completed buildings out of 163.

There's also another critical issue, which we must address, and that's protecting leaseholders from unfair costs under this new regime. The Bill introduces new and important duties, such as fire risk assessments and building safety certificates. All of these generate ongoing costs. It’s absolutely vital that leaseholders are not made to carry the burden of this new regulatory regime. Landlords should be required to explore other funding streams before passing on these costs.

Grenfell planted the seed of fear in people across Wales, who then, and now, are living in buildings with unresolved safety issues. There are residents within a stone's throw away from this building living in fear every day. They have done so for the last eight, soon to be nine years. They are my constituents, and I wish to pay particular thanks to them for the bravery they are showing, not only in trying to safeguard their own homes, but working together as a collective to try and bring positive change across Wales.

The duty upon us as a Senedd to deliver safety to them was highlighted to the committee on 18 September by Cara, a leaseholder. She said, and I quote:

'please get this mess fixed, not over another five years, but right now.'

Yes, right now. I agree, they have waited so long already. It was in May 2018 that the Welsh Government committed to making, and I quote,

'the radical and far-reaching reforms to the regulatory system'.

They then had to wait until 2021 for the White Paper, and it’s only today we are debating the general principles for a Bill that has provisions intended to come into force in 2028. More so, as has been highlighted by other Members, organisations have raised real concern about the amount of detailed deferred to future regulations. This could complicate and delay implementation. The word 'regulations' appears 265 times in the Bill. This is not the way we should be legislating here in Wales, as Mike Hedges has already indicated.

We need also to act on the evidence of stakeholders that there is a skills shortage in Wales that could also prove to cause further delays. For example, how can it be, in 2025, that environmental health officers have no formal training on high-rise buildings, no formal training on construction, no formal training on fire safety-related issues, or the complexities of working with high-rise residential buildings? How can it be that we require the inspection of category 1 and 2 buildings, and to have multidisciplinary teams, with a fire safety engineer and a structural engineer as part of them, when neither the local authorities, nor the fire and rescue services have these skills in-house currently, nor the resources to employ these skills sets?

Whilst I acknowledge that the Welsh Government are trying to deal with this issue, it is alarming to see the feedback the committee received that the key cost pressures of training are poorly accounted for, or, in the words of the North Wales Fire and Rescue Service, who called the cost module 'slightly naive'—? Naive—that’s their view of the cost model of this Bill. Even the Finance Committee has recommended a comprehensive revision of the regulatory impact assessment. So, I don’t see how we can reasonably support the financial resolution today. We are basically being asked to write a blank cheque—to vote for a blank cheque.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government to reply to the debate—Jayne Bryant.

Diolch, Deputy Llywydd. Let me begin by thanking everyone for their contributions today. It's clear to me that the highest standard of building safety in Wales is shared across parties, and that is our ambition. Of course, there are areas of the Bill where Members would like to see change, and I am open to working with colleagues across these benches on those changes. But it is clear to me that the foundations of this Bill are strong, the ambition is clear and the purpose is right. And this is a view supported by the scrutiny committees and by our partners, and I urge you to agree the general principles today. I'd just like to go through some of the points that were raised by some Members. Deputy Llywydd, I know I won't be able to go into lots of detail today, but as I said, we will be responding in detail to the committees who have set out those 72 recommendations and conclusions.

In terms of the category 3 buildings that were mentioned as well, just to say that category 3 buildings and HMOs are not low risk. On the contrary, data actually consistently shows a higher rate of fire casualties in HMOs and buildings that are converted into flats, almost all of which are category 3, than in purpose-built blocks. Furthermore, the Bill doesn't impose wholly new safety duties on these premises, it contains duties that are similar to those that already exist in the fire safety Order, but which are tailored to the risks in residential buildings. The Order will continue to apply in full until the Bill is brought into force. So, delaying any commencement of category 3 would have no benefits, it would just mean that only the relatively high-risk buildings remain covered by the sub-optimal provisions in the fire safety Order.

I'd also like to highlight that this Bill isn't the only thing that we have been doing since the terrible tragedy at Grenfell. This is part of the work that we have been doing since then, and we've been consistent in our approach in making sure that this Bill is ready to be brought forward to deal with more of the occupation phase of the buildings. But I would like to just go into a little bit of detail, because a number of Members have raised the really important aspects around the pace of remediation, which isn't covered in this Bill. And as I said in my opening remarks, I will update Members before recess on the status of the programme, and I'll continue to work with officials to identify ways of unblocking barriers and speeding up the pace of remediation.

Sorry—

Sorry, of course.

May I just pick up on that point? Many of us raised that there were only four buildings out of 163 that have so far been remediated. This is really, really concerning and very frustrating. Here we are, three or four years afterwards. So, may I please ask for your specific response on how you are going to pick up the pace to address the—I think my maths is okay on this one—159 buildings that are still waiting? Thank you.

Absolutely. I feel as you all do, and as residents do and leaseholders do, the eagerness to see that pace injected in. Again, I would like to say that officials do work really, really closely on this. You talk about the buildings that have been completed, but there is work under way on so many of those buildings. And I'm very happy to update Members before recess on the status of the remediation programme that I know we are all keen to see move forward as quickly as possible. But I'd very much like to assure everyone that it is very much in the front of my mind, but just not within the scope of this Bill.

In terms of enhanced approval procedures, which I know is a point the Chair, Mike Hedges, made—this is something I'm keen to explore further and I can see that there would be considerable benefit to providing an enhanced scrutiny of regulations made under sections 14 and 16 of the Bill. So, I have asked officials to provide me with further advice on what type of amendments I could bring forward to deliver these two recommendations.

Deputy Llywydd, I can see that I am out of time, even though I would like to go into much further detail on that, but I will be responding in full to all of the committee's recommendations. Once again, I thank everyone for their contributions today. This is a policy that we care deeply about and I urge the Senedd to support this Bill. Diolch.

The proposal is to agree the motion under item 8. Does any Member object? There is no objection. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with standing order 12.36.

The next proposal is to agree the motion under item 9. Does any Member object? There is no objection. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with standing order 12.36.

Item 10 today is a debate on Stage 4 of the Bus Services (Wales) Bill, and I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales to move the motion—Ken Skates.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'm pleased and I'm proud to move the motion for the Bus Services (Wales) Bill. And I'd like to thank the Chairs, the Members and staff of the committees that scrutinised this Bill. My thanks also to Peredur and Sam as opposition spokespeople for their assistance in making this a better Bill. I'm grateful to both Members and also their staff, including my namesake, Ms Skates, for taking the time to discuss with me how we can strengthen elements of the Bill. And my thanks also to Julie James. Julie kept this Bill to its timetable and to its root by taking to the wheel after I lost my mum. My sincere thanks to Julie. And my thanks also to the excellent officials and Bill team who developed and drafted this piece of legislation. All of you have shown considerable interest in the bus Bill and I'm deeply grateful for your contributions to what is a landmark Bill.

I do believe that passing it will put people first in the design and delivery of bus services. It will restore growth to the industry and it would also help to create one network, one timetable, one ticket across public transport. Vote for this Bill and we will finally have the tools required to transform public transport for the better in Wales.

I too would like to begin by thanking everyone who's engaged with me and colleagues through this process and have spoken directly with me about this Bill.

From our side of the Chamber, the Welsh Conservatives will be voting against the Bus Services (Wales) Bill today, and, while we share the desire behind the Bill to improve public transport across Wales, it still falls significantly short in several crucial areas, and, over recent months, we've submitted amendments and worked cross-party, as the Cabinet Secretary outlined, seeking to improve the Bill. Unfortunately, the majority of our amendments were rejected. I acknowledge that some of our amendments were either accepted or worked towards, and am certainly grateful for that co-operation, but, even with those changes, the Bill in its current form remains problematic.

We remain concerned about the urban focus of the Bill. One third of the population of Wales live in rural areas, yet there is no clear vision for rural bus networks. Rural communities face unique challenges not faced in urban areas: longer distances between towns and villages, fewer alternative transport options and higher costs for service delivery. An urban-centric mindset risks leaving rural residents isolated, limiting access to healthcare, education and employment. It also risks stifling local rural economies as businesses struggle to attract workers and serve customers without those reliable transport links. Fundamentally, though, we believe that the franchising model itself would not work in Wales. Unlike urban conurbations upon which it is based, with high population density, we know that Wales is geographically diverse, with many rural communities and small towns. Franchising risks creating a one-size-fits-all system that is too rigid to respond to local needs, and could push out some of the smaller operators who know their communities best.

Another issue we do not believe has been properly addressed is accessibility. Bus travel is a lifeline for people with disabilities, especially those, as we've heard, who are blind or partially sighted in Wales, and I would like to put on record my thanks to the RNIB for working closely with me on this Bill, highlighting the issues that they are concerned about.

At Stage 3, we supported Rhys ab Owen's amendments, which would have required education and training for staff in relation to disability, ensured that passenger information is available in accessible formats and included accessibility standards in contractual and permit conditions. Unfortunately, these amendments did not get the support from this Senedd. Accessibility is not a nice-to-have; it's an essential for independence, equality and inclusion. This Bill was a once-in-a-generation opportunity to create a bus network that works for everyone. As a consequence of these amendments not going through, the Bill is absent of any strong legal duties to ensure that accessibility is central to this Bill.

Thank you to the Cabinet Secretary for setting all of that out. I speak on behalf of Peredur, who has guided us through this Bill as a party and I thank him for his work.

I'd like to take the opportunity today to also thank all of the stakeholders for their hard work and collaboration in helping to shape this Bill. Plaid Cymru has always emphasised the need for a bus network that is accessible, that is affordable and that is integrated. Our work during this process has reflected those principles and we are pleased that a number of our recommendations will now be part of the franchising framework.

One key amendment made is the inclusion of learner travel in the Bill when planning the bus network. Travel to school or college should not be a matter of luck; it's a fundamental right. We are pleased to have been able to work with the Government to ensure that education is recognised as a priority on the face of the Bill. This creates a duty to consider access to education, including higher education, when planning the bus network. This puts Wales ahead of England. It's crucial that our network includes destinations like schools, universities, colleges, hospitals and care homes, ensuring that people can reach vital services safely and efficiently. This reflects our commitment to a bus network that works for everyone.

Now, the second key point I'd like to emphasise is the punctuality of services. Currently, there is no clear mechanism to monitor or report on punctuality, even though dependability is the most influential factor when people decide whether or not to use public transport. We have called for statutory monitoring, with consistent and transparent data available to travellers, operators and local authorities. Without this, we cannot hold the system to account nor ensure genuine improvement.

Ultimately, punctuality is a matter of trust. If we want people to make the modal shift from private vehicles, we must demonstrate that services arrive at the promised time. Plaid Cymru will continue to call for a modern, fair and dependable network that works for all of Wales. And, yes, there were more differences and amendments that we would have wanted to have seen, more movement on the accessibility of buses, but we see what the Government has done, we're grateful for their willingness to continue to look at these issues, and we will continue to urge greater change in those instances.

So, to conclude, Dirprwy Lywydd, I'd like to thank once again Peredur for his work, and Mari Jones in Plaid Cymru's office for her work on this Bill, and we praise the aims of the Bill. Thank you very much.

This Bill is an essential measure to make better use of taxpayers' money. It gives us the powers to make much better value out of the costs and benefits of that investment. Currently, we have to lay on special school buses to transport secondary school pupils from the communities from which they're drawn, because there's no public bus to get them there. Instead, rival groups of public and private bus providers compete for the most profitable routes, leaving other citizens without a private car with a service that is so thin, so infrequent, that it severely restricts their ability to go to work, to get training, to shop, socialise and attend cultural events.

I recently learned that, last year, it cost Cardiff almost as much to transport additional learning needs children as it does to educate them—so, £11.1 million versus £11.3 million. I look forward to investigating further just how much it costs to lay on these buses to normal secondary schools, where everybody could be sharing the bus for other purposes, not just for the kids, and compare that with the actual cost of the education that we are investing in for them. We have to have a more rational system and a more rational return on public investment.

And Carolyn Thomas.

Thank you for letting me speak. I delivered a petition to the Senedd's Petition Committee about four years ago, just before I became a Member of the Senedd, saying, 'Buses for people not profit'. I really welcome this Bill being passed today—hopefully. At the time, there were buses that were just operating in the more urban areas, where the lucrative fares were. To get them to go to the more rural areas, they had to be really heavily subsidised. This will address that issue, as routes will be properly planned. So, I actually reject what's been said by the spokesperson for the Conservatives.

Also, I did hear that a spokesperson for small bus and coach operators has been really pleased with discussions they've had with Transport for Wales, who have alleviated any concerns that they have had as well. As we've gone through the scrutiny process at committee, a lot of these issues have been raised and have been addressed, and I really welcome that process, working with the Government, and welcome this Bill coming forward. It's a long time coming, so thank you.

And I call on the Cabinet Secretary to reply to the debate.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'm content to move to the vote.

In accordance with Standing Order 26.50C, a recorded vote must be taken on Stage 4 motions. So, I will defer voting under this item until voting time.

And that brings us to voting time. Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I will move directly to voting time. The first vote this afternoon is on item 7, the legislative consent motion on the Tobacco and Vapes Bill—[Interruption.]

I hope everyone is signed in. Do you want to take an oral vote, or do you want to see if it works?

Okay. I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Sarah Murphy, under item 7. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 36, two abstentions and nine against. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

The next vote is on item 10, Stage 4 of the Bus Services (Wales) Bill. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Ken Skates. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 34, two abstentions and 10 against. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

Thank you, all. That brings today's proceedings to a close.