Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee

Good morning and welcome back. With a very heavy heart, I'd like to begin this session by paying tribute to and fondly remembering Claire O'Shea.

As I mentioned at the start of this meeting, I wish to address the heartbreaking news we received on Monday that Claire O'Shea passed away after a very brave and public battle with cancer. The way Claire raised awareness and campaigned for change with such courage and strength during the most difficult of times is an inspiration to us all. Despite her incurable gynaecological cancer diagnosis, Claire was still committed to her work as head of Hub Cymru Africa and co-chair of the Wales Overseas Agencies Group.

Claire was due to be on this panel today, giving evidence on the Welsh Government's international strategy. I have no doubt she would have done so articulately, with passion and with purpose. She was respected and she made always valuable contributions to inform this committee's work, for which we are extremely grateful. We will ensure that the written evidence she provided to this inquiry informs our final report and our future work, because Claire envisioned a future where Wales fully realises its potential as a globally responsible nation. She worked tirelessly to make Wales and the world better. Many of us will wish to do all we can to keep her legacy alive.

She will be greatly missed.

But the loss we are feeling is nothing in comparison to that which those closest to her are now experiencing. And on behalf of members of the committee and the committee staff, I want to express our heartfelt condolences to Claire's family and friends and everyone who loved her. I would now like to invite you all to stand for a moment in a sign of reflection, as we reflect upon the loss of Claire.

We will remember her dearly.

Thank you, all.

We'll move to our evidence session. I will invite the witnesses to introduce themselves for the record. I will start with Sarah.

Hi, thank you. I'm Sarah Rees, I'm head of Oxfam Cymru and co-chair of the Wales Overseas Agencies Group. I wanted to begin by remembering my co-chair, colleague and friend, Claire O'Shea.

Many people have called Claire brave, but Claire was angry. She was angry for herself and for all those people who face injustice locally and globally. She expertly channelled that impatience for change into her work as a campaigner, and her passion for global solidarity never diminished, even as her own health deteriorated. I was sending an e-mail to Claire on Monday morning as we got the news, because she was working right up to her final days. I'm fortunate enough not to have much experience of the sucker punch and the anguish of grief that hit us on the news of Claire's passing, but this grief is something that's experienced daily, hourly, by people in Gaza. We cannot discuss global solidarity without framing it with the urgent need to work across political parties and stand in solidarity for an end to the current siege in Gaza, where avoidable famine is happening here in front of our very eyes. Thank you.

Thank you, Sarah. I'll turn now to Derek to introduce himself.

Thank you. Chair. Derek Walker, Future Generations Commissioner for Wales. I also just wanted to say something with respect to Claire. Claire, in 2022, was listed as one of the 100 change makers in Wales in delivering the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, for campaigning on global solidarity and social justice. She worked closely with our team in many areas and taught us a lot through her leadership about the need for partnerships with global majority countries rather than traditional aid relationships as a way of securing climate change, social justice and tackling poverty. She'll be hugely missed by our team.

Thank you so much, Derek, for that. And Najma.

Hi, my name's Najma. I'm the international programme co-ordinator at the office of the Future Generations Commissioner for Wales.

You're very welcome as well. You're all very welcome to come in. Gareth.

I just wanted to pay my own tribute to Claire O'Shea, because I was a member of the Health and Social Care Committee during the gynaecological cancer inquiry. The evidence that was given directly from Claire and others was some of the most poignant and meaningful evidence that, probably in the time of this Senedd, has ever been heard. They were very personal. They were very relatable to the general public. That evidence and the legacy that Claire gave will live with myself personally forever. I won't forget, because there were fundamental flaws within our health systems, and tackling the early signs of gynaecological cancer—that could have been avoided if some of those right provisions were in place. So, yes, it was poignant, and that evidence will live with me forever.

Thank you, Gareth.

Thank you for those words.

Thank you so much.

Could I ask what your relationship is, please, with either the delivery of or supporting the international strategy and what your view on its efficacy has been? Derek, if you want to go first.

Okay, thank you very much, and thank you for inviting us to give evidence to you today. One of the things that I recognised clearly when coming into this role is how our work on the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 and on sustainable development is a real soft superpower for Wales. There is much more interest in it globally than I'd anticipated coming into the job. As you can see from the strategy documents from Welsh Government and the action plans, it is a real tool for helping us to deliver on our international objectives.

When I came into the role, I sought to shift some of the direction of the work that we do. We run a programme for Welsh Government to deliver on its international strategy, and we've put, since I've come in, much more focus on developing and strengthening the learning between public bodies themselves and counterparts in other countries. We need to focus very much on delivery, and there is good practice and experience in other countries that we can learn from in order to deliver on our ambitions on the well-being of future generations Act, as well as sharing our good practice. This is harder to do, but my view is that that does need to be an increasing focus of the programme that we deliver.

We have thoughts, clearly, on how the strategy could be strengthened, which perhaps I'll come on to later in the evidence, but, certainly, where we can see in terms of our delivery, and where we have information about other parts of the strategy, we see that the strategy is delivering on its three objectives. Perhaps I can turn to Najma, who leads our relationship with Welsh Government in delivering the programme, and can talk to the relationship we have with the team.

Thank you. Najma.

Thank you. Generally, we've got a positive relationship with the Welsh Government, the international team and the strategy as well. Like Derek was saying, we mainly work on raising Wales's profile and promoting Wales as a globally responsible nation, in line with the future generations Act. We've had this strategic partnership with Welsh Government now for the last five years, and, like Derek was explaining, in the last two or so years since he's come in, we've really shifted the focus of our programme, with less international profile raising and more on what we can do to help Welsh public bodies deliver on the strategy and the well-being of future generations Act as well.

Thank you. On a practical point, Najma, can I ask you: could you move the microphone towards you a little? Because what you're saying is so important, I want to make sure that we capture everything.

Is that better?

That's wonderful. Thank you so much. We did hear you, but just make sure that we'll hear you even better for the rest of the session. Thank you so much. Sarah, was there anything you wanted to come in with on this?

Yes, just a mention on the Wales Overseas Agency Group. WOAG is an alliance of international development organisations that are committed to supporting Wales in becoming a globally responsible nation. We have a number of relationships with the international strategy. Many of our members contribute to Welsh Government advisory groups, Senedd cross-party groups, on a range of issues from human rights, gender equality, racial justice, climate change. There's a lot of work happening. And whilst the ambition of the strategy is acknowledged, WOAG does want to note that the implementation has been hampered by funding cuts, with 23 per cent budget cuts within Welsh Government—that was 2023, and the same again this year—but also externally across our organisations.

That financial strain is really difficult. Since we provided our written evidence in December, for example, the Catholic Agency for Overseas Development, Christian Aid, Oxfam GB and Save the Children have all gone through restructure processes. That's four of the five non-governmental organisations who currently sit within the Disasters Emergency Committee group, for example. The fifth, the Red Cross, have already completed a restructure and have now gone down to—. They only have staff who are working on bringing in extra funding and no-one working on policy and advocacy. I think that's been really noticed just between December and now, in those few months.

We've seen the slashing of the United States Agency for International Development, and the shock of the UK aid budget cuts down to 0.3 per cent. The amount that people are able to give because the cost of living is making that more difficult, the increased cost of national insurance contributions—. This has been a perfect storm for charities, whether they're charities based in Wales or international non-governmental organisations, and what's most difficult is that's the time when we've been mostly needed locally and globally.

And just separate to that, while that's made things really hard, it doesn't make it any less wonderful to work in this sector—the way that people have rallied and gathered this week, given the news that we've had about Claire, making sure that we represent what Claire's work has been, as much as anyone else, has been fantastic. These are passionate and brilliant people.

But I think it's really important that we share the responsibility and understanding of what global responsibility entails. Everyone who's involved in delivering the international strategy, including external people, need to be aware that we have to implement the values that underpin this goal. It isn't about tokenistic things, it isn't about taking nice photos and then turning around and saying you want to scrap exactly the same piece of work. It's about making sure that everything that we do, the actions that we take here in Wales, don't harm the planet or people anywhere and that they have positive impacts where possible.

And Sarah, I can imagine what your answer to this might be, but in terms of that aim of a globally responsible Wales, do you think that that aim has been achieved?

I think that the work within the programme has been fantastic. Taith is a great example. Will Hayward recently gave a shout out to that on the podcast that he does, and how a small but deliberately tailored scheme can really, really work and benefit Wales, in terms of enriching young people and raising our profile in the world.

I think we need to make much more use of the media channels that we have within Government to celebrate the many wins that we've got within this project, and not be afraid or pander to populist agendas because there's so much fantastic work. Just this morning I was texting one of the women who came with Size of Wales that was celebrating the Mbale project. They came to celebrate the fact that 25,000 trees have been planted. The positive impact that that has had has been fantastic. The carbon that's been sequestered through that programme is unbelievable, and to put it into context, it's the equivalent to the outputs from cars for 2022 in Wales. So that really is making a difference and it's quantifying it.

But when they came to visit, the lovely two women who came from the Mbale project, they met with schools. We had children who were saying, ‘Whoa, so when that letter came that said a tree was planted in my name, these are the people who grew those trees? And these are making a difference across the world.’ And other things. At the same time, they run a gender empowerment programme as part of that project, and Deborah said when she came, and it was an event that was organised by Claire, that despite being just over four foot tall—she's this small but powerful woman, and she has five children, one of whom was really young when she came to visit; it was the first time that she'd left him—she said that she'd been empowered to raise her voice in her community. And this morning when she texted to send her condolences about Claire and say that she'll be planting a tree in Claire's name, she also said that she has been elected to her local women's council, which is part of the representation of the village in the Government. And that's really inspired lots of people here, who were then going on and sharing their own political journeys. And there's that cross mentoring that's happening, being inspired from people in Mbale to people here in Wales, so that is trickling right back here into our Senedd.

That's very powerful, thank you so much. Derek, what would your take be on this? Because obviously this is a key tenet of the future generations Act. To what extent do you think that this aim has been achieved, and how would you measure how much it's been achieved?

I think it's a process. I think it is being worked towards through the delivery of the international strategy. How we measure success is very simply through the 50 national indicators. This is how we assess whether we're making a difference across the seven well-being goals, and you don't look at any one of the indicators in isolation, you look at them across the piece.

Being a globally responsible Wales is, when we're taking action here to improve well-being in terms of economy, society, culture, environment, that we don't do that in a way that causes damage to other countries. So, you look at that in terms of what we do on renewable energy, you look at that in terms of what we do in waste strategy, what we do on volunteering, as well as on our global footprint and our global greenhouse gas emissions. So, there is a basket of measures that I look to to assess our performance and you will have seen, just a couple of weeks ago, that I put out the future generations report, which is my assessment of progress against not just the globally responsible Wales, but against the ambitions of the legislation more generally. You can see from that that you can point to some very good progress that wouldn't have happened without the legislation, but there's certainly lots more to do in areas where we're not on target to meet long-term trends.

Thank you so much, and then finally from me—. I should have said at the start that Lee Waters has sent apologies for this session, which is why you're hearing quite so much from me at once; forgive me. There are 270 actions that are listed in the strategy and in its action plans that are meant to be delivered between 2020 and 2025. We'd be interested to know what your understanding is of how many of them have been delivered, and this isn't a test exactly, but what would your sense be in terms of all of those different actions of where you think the Government is at with that?

Shall I come in first? I don't personally have an overview of the delivery against all 270 actions, and I think that on some of the actions, we perhaps don't have sufficient measures in place, I would suspect, and in other areas, I think they are quite difficult to measure. So, in terms of how we're increasing Wales's—. How we're seen as a globally responsible nation, that can be quite a difficult thing to measure, or it might be something that's so expensive to measure that it wouldn't justify the cost. But, certainly, in the areas where we work, we seek to evaluate and measure our outcomes and our outputs where possible, and report those to Welsh Government. And I think over the last five years, before my time and during it, we have personally met the actions that we've committed to delivering on. But in terms of an overview of all 270, I don't have that level of information.

Diolch. Sarah.

I think we've looked at around 15 priorities in the strategy that specifically refer to global responsibility, and I've mentioned already the project in Mbale, the work on gender equality. There's been work that Hub Cymru Africa have done on safeguarding. The project that Size of Wales have been doing for ethical citizenship, work on fair trade, wider work that's been happening within Dolen Cymru, for example, and how they've been having conversations on shifting power to ensure that they've got a chair of Dolen Cymru who is from Lesotho, not from Wales, and shifting that power back to the places where voices need to be heard. So, I think there's a lot that has been done.

I think there are certain things we need to mention where that relationship has been, let's say—is it strong to say 'neglected' by Welsh Government? The relationship that we as WOAG had with Welsh Government was fantastic, and the example that I want to give is around COVID and the people's vaccine campaign. This was really, really important, and we'd written to Welsh Government, for example, on a Thursday, to say, 'Here's the action that we want; these are the things that we need to push you to get UK Government to deliver', and we had a meeting with the Welsh Government following that letter the next day. And the ask that we had and that call to UK Government went a day later.

I flip that to a recent situation in Gaza. In February 2024, WOAG wrote to the then First Minister asking for Welsh Government to call on UK Government to reinstate United Nations Relief and Works Agency funding. There was a debate led by Peredur Owen Griffiths on the 1 May, where he followed up and said that we still hadn't heard back on that letter from February. We finally heard back from the then First Minister, Vaughan Gething, on 22 May. Following that response, the letter—and I'll provide you with a copy of that—did not reference WOAG's calls. We had no meeting with the First Minister. But what it did say is that Welsh Government 'hope' UK Government would reinstate UNRWA funding.

Thankfully, the UK Government did lift that pause in funding on 19 July. But I really want to make the point that if we look at the responsibility of Welsh Government under the future generations Act, as the only nation in the world with a legal duty to consider our global impact, I think that it does our Senedd and devolution itself a disservice for Welsh Government to rely on hope over action. And when you look at that relationship and how—. When the strategy was written, Eluned Morgan was the Minister responsible for international relations. And now we look where international relations is, it's part of the First Minister's portfolio, and we haven't met with the current First Minister, we never met with Vaughan Gething, and letters have taken some time to be responded to.

Thank you. Before I come to Alun, I'm going to bring Heledd in on a supplementary.

If I may, on that point, so, you've made requests for meetings, but those haven't been accepted.

We haven't requested a meeting. What normally happens—. And I think a really important point to make is the relationship we have with the civil servants who lead the programme, on what was Wales and Africa and is now wider, the relationship we have with them is fantastic. We can pick up the phone at any time. We work really closely with them, testing ideas, making sure that we can take things forward, and that is fantastic. We really, really value the importance of the honest and open relationship that we have with those staff.

But what I think we really would like to see is something more formal, where we can have this conversation. Julian was kind enough to give us some time for me to talk and hopefully represent Hub Cymru Africa where possible. He said that what used to happen is that there would be regular meetings with the First Minister, to update on work that was happening, and that that has fallen down the priority list, so we don't have any formal relationship. Maybe that is something that would be valuable. One thing that the Welsh Centre for International Affairs have added is that they are the representatives for the international organisations in the third sector partnership council, but that covers domestic issues as well as international issues, and so to get anything on that agenda is really, really difficult. So, maybe what we need to do is find a space that does hold international relations and back up the level of importance that it should have.

Diolch, Sarah. I'm going to bring Derek in, and then I'll go to Mick for a supplementary before going to Alun. Derek.

Just to add a couple of points, I agree with much of what Sarah has said, but my belief is that the international strategy is there to deliver on Wales's wider objectives, whether it be in the economy, whether it be in culture, and so forth, as well as our responsibilities to be a globally responsible nation. So, I recognise the need certainly to have better engagement, of course, and contact, but my sense is that it is rightly led by the Welsh Government's First Minister because it cuts across, it covers all of Government and should be relevant for all of Government. And I'm not sure we're always maximising that potential and that relationship with different Welsh Government departments.

The other point I wanted to make, which I should have made in response to the question earlier, was in terms of the delivery on the actions. One of the action areas where we feel that there is potential to strengthen it is with the relationships with other regions—with the Basque Country, with Flanders, with Brittany, and so forth. There is a lot of learning that can be had for our public sector organisations from many of these regions in terms of foresight or sustainable development, or whatever it might be, but we don't consistently see that included in these relationships. My sense is that we need an approach to say, 'Well, what do we need in Wales? What do we need to learn about and be better at in order to deliver on our priorities as a country, our priorities as public bodies? Which of these regions can help us with that?', and make sure that features in those memorandums.

Thank you so much. Diolch. Sarah, you wanted to come in very briefly, and then I'm going to go to Mick, but you wanted to come in first.

Yes. Just to say that we totally agree with Derek, in that this responsibility does need to stay with the First Minister, but I think one of the points that we made in our written evidence is where we need to see cross-departmental working, and maybe we need global responsibility to sit in each ministerial role. For example, we don't have any relationship as WOAG with the Cabinet Secretary for the economy. And if you look at the growth strategy, for example, there are ethical concerns. For example, we're exporting Welsh beef to China. That's a climate-intensive activity and that undermines Wales's climate commitments and is in direct opposition to the national milestone that we have on our planetary impact. So, maybe that's where we can do it. There are other members of WOAG who do have relationships with other ministers—the Deputy First Minister, for example, who's working really closely with Size of Wales and has met some of their colleagues that they're working with in the Wampís nation.

Thank you so much. Diolch. Mick, you had a supplementary.

Just following on, I was interested in your comments on Mbale, which has obviously got groups like Pont, in my constituency. They've been, obviously, very, very active, and a lot of people have been out there, but not necessarily that well publicised. It seems to be publicised more in schools now, which is very, very good, because it's a real learning progress, but we haven't made perhaps as much as we should have.

I don't disagree with the comments you make about Gaza. Does that bring into highlight the grey area that we have, that, as well as the soft power of culture, of sport and so on, there's also a political soft power as well, in terms of the ability to engage globally and to be recognised globally? Is what you're suggesting—? Foreign affairs and so on is not a devolved area, but, of course, we do have communities from many parts of the world, quite substantial communities, within Wales, and representing their interests, it seems to me, is one of the functions of Government.

So, what exactly would you be suggesting as part of the strategy, should there be a more proactive and a more overtly Welsh focus that is more independent of, perhaps, UK policy, identity and so on, that specifically reflects, I suppose, our engagement with Welsh communities and those areas where, within the devolved functions we have, we are capable of perhaps being more overt? I wonder if you could just perhaps clarify precisely what you think that should be in that what I'd call, with a small 'p', political soft power strategy.

I think that it's really important to look at the past and how we hold values as a nation, and the Welsh women's peace petition would be a perfect example of that. This was something that was led by women all across Wales, people who, when you look at that petition, couldn't write—they marked a cross to make sure that they were listed, that their values were upheld. And I don't think areas like that are coming out very strongly in this current strategy and could really be maximised. Because when we represent Welsh values, they really clearly stand differently to other nations. One of the most wonderful things that we have as a small nation are the values that we hold, and I think that could be represented, Gaza being a perfect case in point. People across Wales are marching every single weekend. They're not just doing that. There are simple things like kite flying, ways that you can get people involved in showing solidarity that are really safe and open and friendly. And I think it's sharing some of those elements that really need to be represented in Government. It isn't so much the harder things that you're mentioning; it is the soft power in holding our values.

Thank you. Derek wanted to come in on this, and then I'll go to Alun.

Yes, just very quickly, I would say don't underestimate the soft power of much of what we have in Wales in terms of our culture and our sport, and even in terms of our legislation, which I'm here to talk about. I think raising awareness of this has been successfully done—difficult to measure, but it has been successfully done. I think we need to get better at translating that we're raising awareness into practical action that's helping us to deliver on Government priorities, public body priorities, in this country as well as abroad. So, I think the raising awareness is done successfully and we shouldn't underestimate our ability to do that. But we could do a better job of then translating that into delivery.

I'm so sorry, because of time, we're probably going to have to move on. But I'm sure you'll find a way of bringing this into a future answer; I have faith that you'll be able to. Thank you so much, Derek.

Over to you, Alun.

Yes, thank you. I want to tie you down a bit, if I could, please, on Government, because you've both said slightly different things, and Sarah, you've said two different things, in my hearing, on your relationship with the Welsh Government. You described your relationship with officials as 'fantastic', which is good to hear, and the rest of it, and then you've been very negative in lots of different ways about aspects of it: whether you're meeting the First Minister or wherever. So, I want to understand what you actually mean and where you're actually resting, if you like, on this. Do you have—? Does the group you represent, so individual organisations as well as the group itself, have regular meetings with Welsh Government? You do have meetings with officials, yes? You do. How regular are they?

They're sporadic; they're not regular at all.

What does that mean?

So, when there's a specific issue that's happening, when something's happening that we want to respond to, or we need to give in evidence on a particular issue. For example, I know that there was something that the Welsh Overseas Agencies Group was supporting. So, I don't have the answers, clearly. It would have been something that Claire did as part of Hub Cymru Africa when there was a situation about supporting an AIDS project; that was something specific, so it needed to be responded to. But I do want to come back—. Because I'm thankful that you wanted to clarify this. I don't want to come across as negative or critical. What I'm trying to do is make a point of where things are more difficult, so that we can improve those areas, because that's really important.

There are relationships that we have with Welsh Government Ministers that are absolutely fantastic; Jane Hutt, for example, I think is an absolute shining example of the ongoing relationship. In whatever position she's been in in Government, she has always been there to be supportive. And we know that we have that relationship, but what I'm doing here is not focusing on some of those fantastic points, but more on the things that could be improved so that we can get better.

That's what I'm trying to get at.

Thank you.

So, you don't have a regular, timetabled, calendared series of meetings with officials; you don't have that.

No.

So, you have meetings when there's an issue that has exploded or that has come up or that you happen to be campaigning on, whatever it happens to be, and then you'll have a meeting with officials rather than with Ministers.

It could be both.

It could be both.

I think our relationship with officials is much more everyday—. You know, we can pick up the phone at any time and, obviously, it's more formal when it comes to speaking with Ministers.

Okay. So, in terms of the international strategy, which is what we're here to discuss this morning, did you or any of the organisations you represent contribute to the development of the international strategy? I presume you did, because it forms a major part of it. So, if you had that, then are you having a regular—you just said you're not; sorry—a relationship with Government that enables you to discuss the implementation and success or not of that strategy?

Okay, I think this is where some of the confusion lies. We've got a number of members within WOAG who are organisations that work closely on some of those deliverables because they're funded by Welsh Government—Size of Wales, Hub Cymru Africa, those Welsh organisations, have more of a conversation, because of funded projects. Other organisations, international non-governmental organisations—Oxfam Cymru, Save the Children, all the others that I've previously named—have no formal relationship in that sense, don't feed in in that sense, because we don't have any contract to deliver.

I think just other points to make on that are that it's been really difficult for INGOs based in Wales, because of the funding that's been stripped back. Oxfam Cymru, for example, in COVID, had six to eight staff members; we have 2.5 at the moment, and that could get less. And so it's very much—. What we've been saying is: 'Use us; use the information that we've got, the connections that we've got to other countries, or lose us,' basically.

Okay. You've explained that very well; I'm grateful to you for that. So, in terms of the development and refreshing of the international strategy as it moves forward, the organisations—. Let's focus this on the organisations that do have those contractual relationships, just in terms of clarity. Does the Welsh Government work alongside them—I presume they do, but I want it on the record—to not just deliver those objectives, but to refresh those objectives, to set new objectives and to review how those objectives are being delivered?

So, the latest one-year plan that's come out, nobody within WOAG has had any conversation with anyone in Welsh Government on the making of that plan, and WOAG members have all said to me that they have no defined channel of engagement. But we really would value and appreciate feeding into making sure that the deliverables of this new 12-month plan do meet the work that we're delivering—whether it be on those projects, whether it be wider work that organisations are doing.

Okay. And, Derek, from yourself—. You've got a different relationship, of course, as a statutory body, so I presume you do have regular meetings with mainly officials, I would have thought, on a regular basis, but—. And I presume you have formal meetings with Ministers in order to review a range of different objectives and strategies and programmes and the rest of it. And I'm interested as to the extent to which your office has been involved in the development of the international strategy, its implementation, review, refresh, and whether you feel that you've been sufficiently or fully engaged with that or not.

Yes. So, just to confirm, there is a different relationship. I have regular meetings with Ministers and meet with the First Minister every six months, and international work would come up on the agenda—not every time, but frequently. We deliver a program of work, so, quite rightly, we have regular meetings with officials, so perhaps I'll just bring Najma in to just explain what that looks like.

We have monthly catch-ups with the Welsh Government international team to track our progress, if we're on the right tracks in delivering our program with the international strategy. That's an opportunity for them to tell us as well about any diplomatic visits, anything, that sort of thing. They like to get us involved when people are coming from other countries, for example, and want to know more about the well-being of future generations Act. So, we've got that bit of a two-way relationship, where they tell us, 'We've got these visits coming up in the next month. Can you get involved?', and where we're also telling them how we're delivering on our program for the strategy. We also meet regularly with the sustainable futures division, who do—. They work across our organisation, but, in terms of international work, we meet with them quite regularly as well.

Okay. That feels like a very useful relationship, in terms of—. You said 'catching up', and that feels like a useful sort of conversation to have, as we would hope and anticipate you would have. But can I ask you, Najma: do you also then have more strategic conversations with Government about how the international strategy should be developing, what you would expect from Welsh Government, how you would expect Welsh Government to be learning as the strategies unfold, and then building on those foundations or not, depending on whether it's successful or not?

We do have the opportunity to feed in where we would like to see improvements, for example. Specifically for us, like Derek was saying, are the memorandums of understanding with regional Governments. We do have the opportunity. We fed back that we would like more of a focus, in the refresh of those MOUs, focused on the future gens Act or sustainable development, to give us more of an opportunity to bring back learning to Welsh public bodies. However, with this one-year refresh of a plan, we weren't involved in developing it. We welcomed it and we aligned our program with it. It aligns with the FM's priorities, it aligns with Derek's strategy for his term, so we welcomed that as a refresh, but we weren't involved in—

So, nobody was involved. Nobody in this panel at all was involved in that refresh. Okay. We'll leave it at that.

Okay, thank you. We'll move to Heledd.

Luckily, I'm following on with the international delivery plan. If I may, given that you've been able to have time to reflect on it, I note your comment earlier, Sarah, just in terms of the reality of cuts and what that means. Also I note, Derek, you've not shied away from being vocal in terms of calling on the Welsh Government to be very vocal themselves in terms of being a globally responsible nation, asking for greater statements in terms of the ongoing situation in Gaza, for instance. Can I ask: having looked at the international delivery plan but not been involved in shaping it, do you think it reflects well enough the actual reality of the cuts, the global situation we're in? Do you think there are things that should be strengthened? Or are you happy with it as it is?

I think I just want to clarify a point, because, in my understanding, those 15 aims are not to replace the wider strategy, but they're in addition to the 270 actions in the strategy. So, if that's the case, we're not going to look at these 15 aims in a standalone point. But I think what we have referenced is the need for cross-departmental working, and I think, particularly in light of UK cuts to the aid budget, for example, UK Government have done that in order to increase spending on defence. So, my question would be whether Welsh Government are looking at investments that are ethical, that will benefit future generations, when we've got questions about trade with arms companies, for example.

Diolch.

Yes. How I saw the action plan is very much as a bridge between this Senedd and the next Senedd, and perhaps giving focus to the delivery over the course of the 12 months. It's clearly in line with the strategy, in my view, but I’ve certainly got views on where we should go in future strategy, and where we should focus on delivery. If I can give a few of those examples—

Yes, please.

Just from my experience over the last two years, I think we should be framing the strategy and our success in terms of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015—so, how is our international strategy going to deliver on our ambitions for Wales, and how is it going to help to meet our indicators? And that will be one way of helping us to put some fuller, more robust measures in place to assess our performance. That would be one thing.

As I said previously, I think there’s a real opportunity to move beyond awareness raising, and raising our reputation, which we’ve done a lot of in our team, on the basis of the well-being of future generations Act, to making practical change and difference. So, for example, as I mentioned at the very outset, the increasing focus that we’ve given to involving public bodies, you can see some real changes. They won’t happen overnight. They won’t happen in a year. But, for example, we supported the exchange between Cardiff Council and Nantes, which had previously focused on culture, and they wanted support in terms of parks and recreation, because Nantes is known for being a city that is one of the greenest cities in Europe. So, how can we learn from Nantes and translate that to action in Wales? And I think we can do more of that.

In country years, so the Wales and Japan, Wales in India years, a lot of effort goes into those programmes, and I’ve been involved in some of that. I think—you’d expect me to say this—we need to take a longer term approach to some of these things. So, we can do a lot to raise awareness, build relationships, and resources and capacity can sometimes have to move elsewhere for the next 'Wales in' year. And I think we’re not then doing enough to realise the benefits and the outcomes as a result of that initial year. So, just this week, someone who was very involved in the Wales in India year, in Mumbai, a The Times of India journalist, who was also acting as a liaison between Welsh Government and us, and the Maharashtra state Government, echoed that point, that, 'You did a fantastic job'. We had access to the legislature in Maharashtra, which, usually, I was told, is only afforded to the UK Government and the US Government. And they then went ahead and put forward a well-being of future generations Act in the Maharashtra state Parliament. It’s going to be translated into action; I just had an update this week and commitment from the Government. But that strong relationship, that deepening relationship with a growing economy could then be better harnessed, hopefully, to create jobs in this country, to create trading relationships for our businesses. We do a good job, but I think we could do a better job of realising the outcomes from that engagement activity.

Thank you.

Thank you for that.

Alun wanted to come in, briefly.

Yes. I think it’s just me and the Chair who were on the committee in the previous Senedd, who examined the international strategy when it was first launched. And I’m interested in your answer there, Derek, because do you believe—is it your view, is it the view of your office—that the international strategy properly and fully, across all its different themes and actions, reflects the imperative given to the Welsh Government by the future generations Act? Is that your view? And, if it is, do you have evidence that it is being delivered, in fact? I accept what you just said, by the way, about the example with Mumbai, and we do hear a lot of anecdotes around these sorts of issues. And I think it’s that that I find frustrating. It’s always good to hear anecdotes about things that give colour to the rest of it, but, frankly, you don’t plan for a series of anecdotes. I want to see a strategy that has the philosophical underpinning that’s been described already, that has a series of actions which deliver those objectives, and then a series of outcomes where you can measure what’s been happening. I accept you can’t do it perfectly on every occasion, everywhere—I don’t want to be overly dogmatic in this. But I want to know that what we’re doing is having an impact, it’s having the impact we wanted it to have, and it’s being delivered in a way that, when I and Delyth were examining Eluned—I think it was—in a previous Senedd, she said it was going to be.

Yes, I agree with you, I think, in that I think we could do a much better job of aligning the strategy, as I was saying earlier, to delivery against the well-being of future generations Act—

So, you don't think it's fully aligned at the moment.

I don't think it's fully aligned at the moment.

Okay. Tell me why.

Well, the key area where I don't think it's fully aligned is perhaps in terms of being able to measure our success. I think the Act is very clearly articulated through all the documents, and it's front and centre, and I think that's right, but apart from individual programmes or even actions within programmes, it can be quite difficult to understand whether those activities are actually delivering the outcomes that we want to see.

The other thing I would say on my comment about how it could be improved is with a longer term approach. Sometimes, the programmes that we deliver are just on an annual basis. We still haven't had an agreement on next year's programme, for example—this year's programme. And we're in the middle of May. So, if we are to—

So, sorry, what is—

Forgive me. If you could be very brief. I'm so sorry, but we only have nine minutes left of the scheduled time. Sorry.

Sorry. So, I think that having that longer term approach would support delivery of the outcomes, because if you then move on to something else, then you can't capture those outcomes and evaluate them.

Thank you. Forgive me about this, because we're so short on time, would the witnesses be able to stay with us until 11:45? Would that work for all of you? Okay. Actually, could you stay with us until 11:50, so an extra 10 minutes? Wonderful. In that case, I will bring Sarah in briefly and then I'll come back to Heledd.

Thank you. Just on that point, I think that what we're saying is that if we want to be aligned to the broader vision of Wales as a globally responsible actor, then we need this delivery plan to have clear pathways, timelines and indicators. But one of the difficulties is how we reflect the soft power. And to bring in the point I was going to make earlier, we had a visit from an Oxfam colleague who came to Wales for 10 hours in November of last year. She came in advance of going to provide evidence to the court case that's happening in the UK, and she said—and it had been just after 12 months of this awful situation—that those 10 hours in Wales utterly revived her to go back and do that work, having met with different people, with different organisations and with people across the Senedd.

You see, that's anecdotal, and I accept it's anecdotal, but what I want to know are the plans, the objectives, and that they're being delivered. I accept what you're saying, Sarah, and I have no issue with it, but we do keep coming back to anecdotes, and that's a weakness, I think.

We'll probably have to move on, I'm afraid, but this is something I can imagine we'll be looking at, certainly.

Thank you, Alun. We'll go back to Heledd.

Thank you. If I can return to the international delivery strategy, and aim 12 specifically—this is a question for Sarah—the Welsh Government says that it will look at how our approach to international development through our Wales and Africa programme could be applied more broadly. Are you involved in this work?

There are members of WOAG who are more involved, but one of the points that members have wanted me to make, for example, is that the voice of peace could be much stronger. Welsh Government funds Academi Heddwch Cymru. This is Wales's first peace institute. It's amongst a global family of research institutes that come together, bringing academic minds and expertise to build a better world through peace-rooted approaches to global challenges. They've been doing some fantastic work, world-leading work, from Wales, and I think that that needs to be recognised. Environmental action is missing. There's nothing on reducing consumption, emissions, reducing Wales's ecological footprint, becoming a deforestation-free nation—work that actually is successful and is going really well. So, that could be in there. And I think, again—I'm going to keep coming back to it—the situation in Gaza. Earlier this week, the Integrated Food Security Phase Classification reported potential famine in Gaza, the real prospect of catastrophic famine, and the Welsh Government has an opportunity and a responsibility to represent Welsh values as leaders in global responsibility and peace building, to do more and say more on that.

Thank you.

Okay. Thank you. We will move to Gareth.

Thank you, Chair. We've covered, obviously, collaboration quite a bit already, but I just want to find an assessment from you as to how you believe that collaboration, in terms of the Welsh Government in the delivery of the strategy, would potentially tackle some of those issues around things like resources, funding and budgetary constraints that the Welsh Government would have, if they can draw on a suite of expertise from other areas.

Shall I come in first?

Yes.

I think there will be lots of demands and interest in supporting the Government to deliver on its international strategy, and that is good, and I think we can achieve more for the Welsh pound through collaboration. And collaboration is one of the five ways of working in the well-being of future generations Act, so of course you would expect me to say that, but I'd be concerned about collaboration for collaboration's sake.

This comes back, I think, to some of the points that we've been talking about in the committee: what are we wanting to achieve here, what are the outcomes we want to achieve, and who are best placed in team Cymru to be able to achieve that? So, there is a danger of fragmentation that could be damaging, potentially, but I think, generally—. So, it needs to be done properly. I used to work in a funding organisation, so if this was about funding and how the funding is delivered through collaboration, you can create a lot of demand for involvement in a programme that can't be met, which is a big-time resource on those applying for that funding. So, that needs to be carefully done so that we're clear on what we want to achieve, and those who feel that they can have a role in delivering that can be part of it, but not just doing it because there's a demand to be involved, but involving people for a purpose in terms of delivering on our objectives.

I think, for WOAG, given the name itself—we are overseas agencies working together—we do that all the time, and a lot of the mechanisms by which we do it are through our work with the future generations commissioner's office. We collaborate daily and it's all about the shared goals that we have. But I think where we need to see more collaboration is in that cross-departmental working in the Welsh Government. One example could be the recruitment of health and social care workers from India to address workforce shortages in Wales. That raises some concerns because international co-operation is wonderful, it's positive, but it mustn't come at the expense of exacerbating existing inequalities in our partner countries. Work that Oxfam Cymru have been doing with the Institute of Welsh Affairs, for example, and looking at a Wales that cares for people and planet, underscores the need for a values-led, justice-focused approach to care development that doesn't perpetuate global imbalances and is really looking towards the future generations Act in the delivery of that work in looking to a well-being economy, for example.

Do you think there'd be scope within the Welsh Government to collaborate more effectively with the UK Government and, potentially, departments, like the Home Office, to address some of those concerns on issues around things like workforce, and pooling those areas across the UK collaboratively and enhancing those resources that we've got to solve some of those problems, as the United Kingdom, sort of thing, as a whole?

Yes, I certainly do think there's more opportunity to do that. In terms of some of the work that we've done around sustainable development and talking to other countries and regions that have been interested in the future generations Act, last year, there was a UN pact for the future and a declaration on future generations, and that was drawing on the Welsh experience and encouraging other countries to take similar approaches. It was also about agreeing to a UN special envoy for future generations, similar to my role, on a global stage, but the UK was the member state, not Wales, as part of the UN discussions, and I guess we worked hard to talk with Welsh Government, to UK Government, to tell them that there was a UK story emanating from Wales that could support them in their UK-wide objectives, and I don't think that is necessarily always happening to the extent it could.

Thank you. Okay, final word.

I think there are a couple of really important things that we do as a nation-state in collaboration with other nation-states. There's the Under2 Coalition that's looking at climate change. I can't remember the name—I did have a note of another one, but it's in the delivery plan—of another group that's looking at global nations that are working towards well-being—

Regions4.

That's the one, thank you. Yes, there are a number of areas where I think it's really valuable to hold our place as a nation-state to do that collaboration.

Thank you so much. With your permission, we will write to you with any further questions, rather than extending the time this morning now.

May I thank you very much for the evidence that you've provided this morning? It's been exceptionally useful for us. May I thank you again for being willing to give evidence under the very sad circumstances? I feel that Claire has been with us in her words and in your words too. So, thank you all very much.

A copy of the transcript will be sent to you, so you can check that it is a fair reflection of what's been said. But may I thank you once again for your evidence this morning?

Thank you so much.

Thank you, diolch yn fawr.

Thank you so much. Diolch.

And as our witnesses are leaving us, we can turn immediately to our papers to note. So, I'll thank the witnesses once again for their evidence. We have a number of papers to note this morning, although not as many as last week. Are Members content to note those papers? Yes.

Felly, rwy'n cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i wahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod heddiw. Ydych chi'n fodlon i ni wneud? Ocê, mi wnawn ni aros i glywed ein bod ni'n breifat.