Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee

Thank you very much, Chair. I'm Mark Drakeford, the Cabinet Secretary for the Welsh language, and with me this morning is Jeremy Evas, who leads on this area and a number of issues that are very important to us in the Government, and Elin Burns who has just become the head of not just the Welsh language, but other aspects within the Government.

A very warm welcome to the three of you. Thank you for your time this morning. We'll go straight to questions, if that's okay. May I ask you, first of all, in terms of 'Cymraeg 2050', do you still believe that that is the right framework for increasing community use of the Welsh language, particularly when we look at matters such as engendering greater confidence among speakers in those areas where the Welsh language isn't the main language?

Thank you, Chair. I continue to believe that 'Cymraeg 2050' provides a robust framework for increasing community use of the Welsh language. But the framework hasn't just stood still from the time when it was originally devised, because a lot of things have happened in the meantime that have helped us to develop and evolve the framework, for example, through 'Welsh Language Communities Housing Plan' projects and, of course, the work of the Commission for Welsh-speaking Communities.

What I want to see is the energy and resources that we have within the Government focusing on the things that emerge from the framework, not to put that energy into creating another strategy for the Welsh Government. So, I think the strategy that we have is fit for what we want to do, but I just want to be clear that the framework is something that we're developing through the experiences that we've had.

Thank you for that. Before I bring Alun in with a supplementary question, I was quite struck by one of the annexes to the evidence that you sent. Somebody had quoted the words of Dai Smith,

'Welsh is a singular noun, but a plural experience',

and that is something that I think is exceptionally important for the work that we're looking at here. The Commission for Welsh-speaking Communities had looked at—. They questioned whether looking at Welsh areas was the best thing or the best focus for this work, rather than providing more opportunities for people to use the Welsh language rather than being in those places. Is that a tension, do you think, or is it an innate part of the whole picture?

I don't think there is a tension between those two things, because for some people, particularly those who are learning Welsh in the south-east, the only place where they can practise their Welsh is by creating opportunities for them to do that, and that does mean that we will need to create Welsh-language spaces. It is a necessary step, but there is more than that to do.

One of the things that has changed since the framework was established is the option that we use every day now, where people can come together but just not in the same room. But for those who are learning Welsh and who want opportunities to practise and to meet other people who are doing the same thing, to create those opportunities for them to come together to do that, that has been an important step, I think, along this language journey, but there is more to do.

Thank you for that. I will bring Alun in for a supplementary question.

Thank you. Perhaps I should declare an interest as the Minister who created this strategy, but, partly, the strategy was about two things at heart. It was about changing the mindset of Welsh speakers and Wales as a nation about the language, and the status and role of the language in our nation. But it was also about changing the Government and how the Government treats the Welsh language, and to give the Welsh language a different status, if you like, within the Government. Do you think, Cabinet Secretary, that this has happened or is happening, that the Government itself has changed its mindset when it comes to the Welsh language?

Well, I think that that is happening. A lot of other things remain to be done, but we are on that journey. You can see that in small things and in some bigger things. So, just one example of the small things: when I was the First Minister, I was just creating the situation where we ran the Cabinet through the medium of Welsh. I would introduce everything in Welsh, we'd go through the minutes in Welsh. To start with, because the majority of the Cabinet members don't speak Welsh, it was slightly—. You could see people struggling a little to see where we were on the agenda. But after doing it twice, people were—. It just makes it natural, and Eluned is still running things that way. So, that's just one step to try, to normalise the use of the Welsh language in everything that we do as a Government.

On the bigger side, we have increased the number of civil servants who are learning Welsh. At the start, when the framework was being created, we were talking about around 50 people having Welsh lessons among the civil service. Now—

Seven hundred plus.

—there are more than 700 people doing that. So, that is a change of mindset, but it also changes the way we are operating internally to promote the Welsh language and show—. And it's important to me for us to show as a Government—. If we want to create a bilingual nation, where people can use the Welsh language every day, we have to show that we are doing that internally as well.

May I come in on that, please?

Yes, of course.

Ie.

Statistical work is also being done to create projections for what we will have to do to achieve the objectives of 'Cymraeg. It belongs to us all', the Welsh Government's internal strategy for the Welsh language. We want everyone to understand the Welsh language by 2050. So, if I remember correctly—don't use these figures—1,300, 1,400 on levels 4 and 5—that will be on CEFR levels in the future—plus that 700, plus those future employees. So, things are changing. As the Cabinet Secretary has said, there is more to do, but there has been progress made.

Very good.

Thank you for that. We'll move on to Heledd.

Thank you. I know that you've been following our evidence very carefully, given the responses you've given me on the floor of the Senedd. In terms of national Welsh-speaking festivals, the National Eisteddfod, the Urdd Eisteddfod, I'm sure you'll have heard the evidence that we've had about legacy, and some of the things that the Welsh Language Commissioner told us as well, in terms of the need, therefore, for a national framework, possibly, that would be able to measure the legacy and ensure legacy, if there were more intentional planning around this.

In the evidence paper that you've submitted to us, there is one statement in it about the National Eisteddfod in Rhondda Cynon Taf, saying that having these kinds of festivals can promote the Welsh language and create a very strong legacy for our language. On what basis have you made that statement? How do you measure that, and what do you think the role of the Government is in terms of that legacy?

Thank you very much for that question. I failed to say at the outset, Chair: just to thank the committee for the work that you're doing now. That will be very useful for us in Government, and will go alongside the commission's second report. I have been keeping in touch with the evidence that you have received already.

Just to say a word about the background to this. What we've been focusing on with the National Eisteddfod and the Urdd Eisteddfod over the recent period is just to return them to the position that they were in pre COVID. Because they have been in a position where there weren't as many people as had previously attended the Eisteddfod attending now, because they were concerned about coming together, and so on. Now, where I think we can be confident—and the number of people attending the Urdd Eisteddfod, the National Eisteddfod has returned to the level it was at—now, I think, is the point where we can turn to placing greater focus on learning the lessons from the things that are going on, and to see how we can use the impact that the National Eisteddfod in Pontypridd is having in that local area and on local people to help people to continue with that positive impact.

It depends a great deal on the context, doesn't it? What's important to do in Pontypridd is different to what was important on the Llŷn peninsula, where the Eisteddfod was held the previous year. But, recognising the fact that the context will be important, I think that we've reached a point now where we can do more as a Government, working with national partners such as the Eisteddfod. We've asked the Eisteddfod to do more to think about the legacy and what they can do to help us to build on that legacy, but with local partners as well, mentrau iaith and so on.

Thank you. That's encouraging. Evidently, there has been significant investment from the Welsh Government to support the National Eisteddfod and the Urdd Eisteddfod and so forth. But one of the things that the National Eisteddfod said was that they didn't have the capacity on the ground in the area, because local volunteers often provide that leadership locally, aside from the Eisteddfod week, but sometimes we don't see that legacy being able to continue to that extent. So, it's good to hear that. We would have an interest as a committee to see how that will emerge in Welsh Government policy.

If I could ask also in terms of the mentrau iaith, because, obviously, they have a central role in terms of collaborating with national festivals. They certainly said that it's very variable in terms of the Wrexham and RCT Eisteddfodau in terms of the work beforehand, because you also fund free access for low-income families, which is very important. One of the things that was mentioned by the mentrau iaith specifically was, in Pontypridd, they couldn't afford to have a full Parti Ponty this year. When you gave us evidence in January, you were talking about having more events and so forth. Do you think that that situation has changed because of the economy and how expensive festivals are? And do you think that there is a risk that we will see fewer festivals or events from mentrau iaith in the future?

Just to say at the beginning, I don't look to the National Eisteddfod to continue to do things on a local level after the Eisteddfod has moved on to the next location. What we've asked the Eisteddfod to do is help local people after the event, with the evidence that the Eisteddfod itself will have gathered, and to think about that when they do the work that they do. That means that we will have to look to the mentrau iaith and other agencies, like the local authority, for example, and people in the third sector, to do the work after the Eisteddfod has moved on.

Every menter iaith in Wales has additional funding. The first thing that I will have to say is they will have to do what every agency does, which is to prioritise the things that they want to do and to make decisions on what they can do. The first thing is for the local agencies like the mentrau iaith to do what they can with the funding that they have. But I do acknowledge the fact that if the Eisteddfod has been in Newport, or wherever the Eisteddfod is held, there will be more work to do to build on the positives that emerge from that experience. I am going to have a meeting with Mentrau Iaith Cymru, the group that has responsibility for activities across Wales, to speak to them to see whether there's more we can do to provide assistance to the local group in the year or two after the Eisteddfod is held in that area.

Just before Heledd moves on, if it's okay—. I know Lee has a supplementary. I wanted to ask something, before Lee comes in, on the mentrau iaith, if you were going to move on from that.

I was going to ask about mentrau iaith.

Okay. If you want to finish that question on mentrau iaith, we'll come back after that.

I don't mind if you want to ask on the mentrau iaith.

Okay. It was something that was slightly different. The increase in funding happened so that every menter iaith received at least £100,000. Evidently, that was the first increase for several years and it was welcomed. For the mentrau iaith that didn't receive as much funding previously, that was a great help, but for some who were just under that threshold, they've been left in a situation that is quite difficult because of inflation and the additional costs of employing staff. Is that something in this context that you will be looking at as well?

I'll ask Jeremy to come in on this.

All of the mentrau iaith have had an increase of at least 5 per cent or £100,000, and that is as a result of requests from the mentrau iaith over a number of years.

Can I just return to that point of planning the legacy of the Eisteddfod? Thank you very much. It's not just mentrau iaith, but it's a multi-agency response that's needed. So, for example, in Rhondda Cynon Taf, after the Pontypridd Eisteddfod—an area I come from—we've been working with Interlink, but we've recently held a session on 'leading in a bilingual country' with the council's management team, and that's something that we've looked to systemise pre and post the Eisteddfod.

Thank you. I'll bring Lee in now because I think it was also on the mentrau iaith.

I hope this isn't cutting across Heledd's subject of questions. I just want to follow up on the point the Cabinet Secretary was making there. Because the evidence we received wasn't just about money—obviously, money is always part of the picture, to a degree—but it is about strategy and the need for an exit strategy when events are being planned. We heard from the Football Association of Wales how they are part of a community effort now to think about how they can align their activities with the broader work of the Eisteddfod, and there's no reason why it couldn't be imagined that they could be part of an ongoing plan for the community in the aftermath of an event. Similarly, the community summons a great deal of energy to plan for an Eisteddfod, but there's nothing, then, after it finishes. So, I think the challenge we were wishing to make is not just about extra money for mentrau iaith, it's about the way the Welsh Government and partners think about events, and is there more that can be done to expect a legacy plan as part of an overall plan.

Thank you for that further question. I tried to say in my original answer that we have made a new request of the National Eisteddfod itself, which is, I think, exactly about having an exit strategy from the day that they identify an area where the Eisteddfod is to be held. It's a bit like discharge planning from hospital, isn't it? The discharge plan needs to start on the day the patient is admitted, not when they're ready to leave. And I think what we're asking of the Eisteddfod is to be more ymwybodol, more aware of the need for them to be working with the partners.

The Eisteddfod sparks all sorts of activity, doesn't it? Sometimes more activity amongst existing organisations, sometimes new things come into being—choirs that are especially assembled for the Eisteddfod and so on. So, what we're asking the National Eisteddfod to do is to be thinking about how that will have an impact beyond the week of the Eisteddfod itself, from the day that they identify that next location.

I don't think we should be downhearted about it, because I think there is evidence from Pontypridd of how that is happening; it can happen to a greater extent, I'm sure. But I attended an event in Pontypridd back in March, I think it was, where lots of organisations that had been involved in the Eisteddfod came back together again to talk about what they were doing subsequently and the longer term impact that it had had. There's been a local Eisteddfod in Pontypridd, hasn't there, recently, which I think would not have happened if it was not for the National Eisteddfod. So, I think we can see already how that legacy planning can be successfully carried out, but with more focus on it, there's more we can do.

Thank you. We'll go back to Heledd.

Thank you. I think the point that I was trying to look at was the strategic role of Government, because, clearly, the Eisteddfod isn't in that area permanently. Certainly they can be a partner in that. But how does that then align with the Welsh Language and Education (Wales) Bill? Because it is such a boost to the language in an area where the Urdd Eisteddfod and the National Eisteddfod are held. Do you think there's a more strategic role to maximise the benefits of this? For example, in Rhondda Cynon Taf, I have people telling me now that they're taking children out of Welsh-medium education because of changes to school transport and so on, and there are concerns in that regard. So we're just trying to see how we use these events strategically, with all of the public resource allocated to them by county councils and by the Welsh Government. Do you think that there's more that we can do, strategically, within Government strategy, to be maximising the benefits, not just asking the National Eisteddfod to be better at planning this? The question is whether there's more the Government could do to maximise the benefits.

I'll have to think a little more about that point. I just have two things to say today, and I'm sure Jeremy can add something as well. Things like transport—that's going to be true if the Eisteddfod had been held there or not. So, there's not a strong link there, and we'll have to think about that wherever we are in Wales.

The second thing is, what is the role of the Government? To me, the role of the Government is not a strategic one, but rather to use the powers that we have to draw people together locally—the convening power of Government. I think that that's what the Government can input in order to help local people to plan and to help local people to think about what they want to do after the Eisteddfod and what they think the opportunities are. I'm not sure whether that's a strategy that we can create here in Cardiff, to tell people in Wrexham, 'This is the way you've got to do it now, here's the strategy we've devised.'

I want to think more about whether there's something we can do at the strategic level, but I see the role of the Government as, after the Eisteddfod, being to draw people together and help them to use the resources and energy and goodwill that they have to prepare to build on everything that would be there after the Eisteddfod.

Thank you. And the final question from me. Clearly, we've spoken about the investment that you've made in free access for low-income families. You'll be aware of the mentrau iaith events. They are free of charge. Both of us enjoyed Tafwyl a great deal. But a whole host of events available free of charge across Wales. How important do you think that principle is, that events are free of charge, and also that we continue to ensure free entry for low-income families?

Of course, it's great when events can be held free of charge, so anybody can attend without having to worry about the cost of doing so. I have made the decision to provide funding there to help the National Eisteddfod and the Urdd Eisteddfod to provide opportunities for low-income families. I've put that in the core grant, so it's in the baseline. That will be there now for the future.

We've done that because we've seen the success. We've had more than one year of experience and we've seen what does work to help people to attend the Eisteddfod. I remember being at a station here in Cardiff, in Radyr, going up to the National Eisteddfod, and there was a family there. They told me,

'We wouldn't be going to the Eisteddfod if it wasn’t for the fact that we know we're going to be able to go in.'

The children were attending a Welsh school in Cardiff. There were no Welsh speakers at home, but the fact that the opportunity was there, that’s why they made the decision to travel up to Pontypridd. So, we have evidence now regarding how we can use funding in a way that succeeds in getting the people who we want to help to attend, and that’s why I’ve put that funding into the baseline for the future.

Thank you.

Thank you for that. We'll move to Alun.

I think that these questions are really important and go to the heart of the policy and the role of the Welsh Government, because we’re talking about the Government’s place in our society, and in our communities. And when I was learning Welsh as a student, I don’t know whether I would have chosen to go to a Welsh Government gig, but I would like to think that the Welsh Government can play a role as a catalyst, and as a body that provides resources for people to be able to create that kind of social excitement and activity through the medium of Welsh where people then choose to go Welsh-medium events, to use the Welsh language, and can then learn the language, or promote the language, without thinking that they’re attending, I don’t know, a Mark Drakeford gig on a Friday night. [Laughter.]

Then, where is the Government—? What is the role of the Government in that regard, and where does the Welsh Government’s role stop?

Well, it’s such an interesting debate this morning, isn’t it? So, the Welsh Government has a role in funding things—I’m sure about that. And there is a role for the Government in promoting and showing people where other possibilities exist, because, sometimes, people don’t know what’s going on in another location in Wales. And one thing that the Government can do is move experiences from one place to another, and say,

'Well, they're doing this up there, have you thought of doing that?'

So, there is a role for the Government in doing that. But, as I was thinking in my response to Heledd’s question, for me, the most important thing that the Government can do is to help local people to do the things where they have more information about what’s going to work in their context. So, we can get behind them, and help them, and for them to know that the Government is behind them and backing them, but I don’t want to see the Government taking their place and saying,

'Here's the five-year plan.' I think, in this field particularly, the job of the Government is to use a convening power, to use the support we can offer to empower—not a word I like, actually, but—to enable those local players to do more than they would be able to do if they didn't have the support of the Government behind them.

Yes. And as a catalyst, and as a body that can drive change—and I’m aware that the Government has been very active when it comes to technology—I’m interested in how the Welsh Government, working with different Governments world-wide, can promote a place for the Welsh language on different platforms and in new technology. We had a discussion about this at the beginning of the year, and I know that the Government has been promoting this work.

So, where would you—? Where are we at the moment, in your view, Cabinet Secretary, on that?

Well, technology is one of the areas where I think that the Welsh Government does have a significant role in leading, because we are dealing with major companies, and we’re dealing with a world that changes so quickly. And I do think that there is a significant role for us in doing more to help the language to be used in all aspects of our lives, particularly in terms of how young people live their everyday lives. So, it’s a very exciting area, I think. So, it's a very exciting area, I think. I've seen this morning something that's not available yet to us all, but where we're working with major companies. What I saw this morning was a system where, if I speak Welsh in a meeting on Zoom—

Teams.

—on Teams, sorry—it comes up on the screen in English. So, I speak Welsh and it comes up on the screen in English. And if I speak English, it comes up on the screen in Welsh, in real time. I think that that's going to transform—. If we can develop that, it is going to transform things. I do a lot of work on the screen, and a number of people in the meeting speak Welsh, but we all speak English because there are some people who are not confident enough to speak Welsh. But, with that assistance, we don't need a translator, because people will be able to take part in the same meeting in Welsh or English simultaneously, naturally—it's normalisation; that's one of the things that I want to do. So, that's a new thing, and we're just on the verge of making that available. That's just one example. Jeremy is leading on a lot of this work, so it would be better for him to talk about this than me, but that's one example of the things that we have—or nearly have—now that is going to transform things—a situation where people can use Welsh or English together within the same meeting.

Can I come in on that?

Yes, please.

It is on general release on Teams, so it is available to everyone. It's the first example worldwide, I think, in terms of bilingual transcription. So, Welsh and English can be transcribed at the same time. You can change between languages in the middle of a sentence and it will respond to that. As well as that, on a different licence level, it can translate from both languages. So, you can have translation into Welsh of a bilingual Welsh and English meeting, and then a translation into English of that same Welsh and English meeting. So, that is available on general release now. It's not perfect, but there is no speech recognition technology in Welsh that's perfect at the moment, because it needs more data fed into it. But that is as a result of our work with Microsoft.

That's very interesting and very important. I was looking myself last night at speech-to-text technology and how I can use the iPhone more in Welsh than I do at present. But when are Siri and Alexa going to be able to speak Welsh?

Whenever Apple and Amazon decide that that is a good thing. All I'll say is that we are speaking to many people behind the scenes. We created a technology strategy back in 2018 with one philosophy: if the Government pays for something, then we release it under a permissive licence so that anybody and everybody can use it, and they do. And we make the major players aware of that. Microsoft has released; we'll see what others do in future. But what is critical in that regard is the sociolinguistic situation in Wales, because what some of these companies misunderstand is: Welsh or English, but we need Welsh and English because of the bilingual nature of our lives.

So, where will we go next with the strategy in terms of Welsh language technology? What are your priorities for the next years?

Just before you answer that, I think that Gareth wanted to come in on the previous question.

Yes, thank you, Chair. It was just on that point that you made about the work with technology companies. I just wanted to ask, really, at what level is that being worked at: is it collaboratively, or is it more through influence and discussions with the likes of Apple, Samsung, whoever else, to get that on their radar, if you like? What level of discussion is it?

The honest answer to that is 'all levels'. So, we've had discussions with Microsoft at deputy chief exec level in Seattle on the human interpretation facility that we used in Teams. We have good relationships. For me, it's all about the relationships with people in these companies that you build up over time, and then putting formal feature requests in via our own channels to them to do this, and we've got a business case in with Microsoft on a series of feature requests that will enable more bilingual working, not just for Welsh, but for bilingual situations all over the world.

We'll go back now to Alun.

So, the question I'd asked was on priorities for the future.

Well, the first thing for me is to ensure that more people are aware of what we already have, because one of the things that strikes me is that there are so many things going on and so many resources available now to people, but I wasn't aware of everything before speaking to Jeremy at the end of the year. So, the next step for me is to do more to help people to use the resources that we currently have. So, if you go to the first page of Helo Blod now—and a number of businesses use Helo Blod—you can see that there is a button there, and you can click on it and it will show all of the possibilities and options available to help people who want to use the Welsh language in the workplace, free of charge, because that's the way that we've done it. Everything that we've done as a Government, we've done on the basis that that will be available to everyone. So, for me, that's the next step. Jeremy will continue with his work and there'll be many new things, new possibilities, that will be presented to us in future, but, at the moment, what I want to do is to inject greater energy into bringing people into what we already have.

Well, that's fair enough and I am comfortable with that. But, in speaking to people at Canolfan Bedwyr in Bangor, and in reading the report by the BBC yesterday, the one thing that you're aware of is that everything is changing very quickly, and is still changing very quickly, and I find myself trying to keep up with things. But we also see that young people are living their lives online and don't watch linear television, as I did, and expect things to be online first. So, if the Welsh language is not online, the Welsh language won't exist in this new world. So, how is the Welsh Government still acting as a catalyst? And I do think that this is a clear role for the Government, in terms of ensuring that, when the changes come and new products appear online, the Welsh language can be part of that, because, through the technology that you've described, it's possible that the Welsh language could be a bridge and that people can express themselves and have bilingual meetings in a way that wasn't possible a year or 10 years ago. So, as a Government, how are you going to ensure that the Welsh language continues to appear online?

Well, no doubt that there will be some points that Jeremy can cover, but one of the things that I think is important is that the technological world is moving so quickly that we have to be flexible as well in the response that we're developing as a Government. But where we've succeeded, I think, is through the long-term connection: Jeremy and others in the Government working in this area have created those long-term relationships with the major corporations and the people within those corporations. Now they understand the Welsh language. It's incredible to me what Jeremy explained about real-time interpretation, that that is available in Welsh and not available in some languages that are spoken by millions of people. And that's happened because we want to be flexible and keep up with developments, but we're doing it on top of those long-term things that we've invested in. So, the two things are important, aren't they: to get that long-term investment, and to create those relationships with these major players to get them to understand the situation here in Wales, to think about the Welsh language, about something that they use to help them to develop products for other languages. And that is happening when we invest as a Government, and it's only Government that can make that investment. It's only Government that's there year after year after year, and when companies understand that, it gives them the confidence to do that work with us. So, I am determined to continue with those investments as well. On top of that, there are new things emerging.

Do I have time to provide three very brief answers? So, one process answer, one technical answer, one people answer. So, the process answer—boring but necessary—is that we have worked on procurement systems to drive the market and to upskill these people. So, in terms of what a bilingual service is, years ago, we had hundreds of queries about how you put a circumflex on the 'w' and the 'y'—we've got rid of that now—or what do you use to change language from the St George's flag or the Union Jack—well, just words. But now the Centre for Digital Public Services and us have mainstreamed that into procurement processes. It's not perfect; CDPS has made that part of the digital standards about a fortnight ago, so that will be a slow burn, hopefully, and will hopefully drive more things in Welsh.

The technical answer is that we're using open standards, which means that the things that we create can be used in different products. So, Microsoft has used them; TurboScribe, we think, has used them. We don't know, because they're open, they're out there, and other companies can use them.

But to return to young people, the bid that we’d make to you—and this is the 'people' answer—is what is the technological bit and what is the content bit. So, the technology can help people to create content in Welsh, but the content that's created, or the themes of our content is not something technological. So, I think that we need to look at that in a different way. So, we would look at influencers, who are not technical at all, but we have been discussing that with the Catalonian Government, for example.

Okay, thank you for that. That's really interesting; that's been raised in evidence as well. I think Heledd wants to come in on that.

I just want to ask about the role of promotion, because one of the things that we hear a great deal is how many things are available, but a lack of awareness of that provision. Clearly, somebody could run those, but we need to remind people consistently. Is that something that you're considering?

Yes, it's something we're considering, and promotion can mean lots of different things. It can mean spending lots of money on a campaign, or it can also mean working with software companies, either to automate the Welsh language, or to nearly automate it. So, back when we started with Microsoft in 2004, there were different bits of the Welsh language everywhere, you needed administrative permissions, and the use of it was very low. So, as part of our partnership with Microsoft over the last 20 years, we have worked with them to weave the different components together. It's still not good enough, but it's getting there. So, it's possible to automate, and that's what we've done in the Welsh Government. We've announced a Welsh in a click app, and that's what it does: click, and everything is in Welsh. And we're working with other organisations to give them that learning. I'm doing a lot of outreach work, and it’s obvious that I'm not doing enough outreach work, because every time I go, people are so surprised that there's so much available. So, it's something that we're looking at.

The Cab Sec has referred to Helo Blod already, but we need more than that, and particularly within the education system. And that is part of the work with Microsoft—how we can put it there. One of the things that we did in the education system—this is not promotion, but it does increase the use of the Welsh language—Microsoft 365 on Hwb in schools. There are 80,000 learners in Welsh language settings. And we just switched Microsoft 365 into Welsh without them asking. And that's what it is, that's how it is from now on. So, we didn't need to promote that, but now 80,000 people are having a Welsh language experience. But I do think that we need to look at how we get things out there, even more than we are at present.

I accept that you mentioned more formal things, but those things that would be on every phone, for example, and normalising the use of the Welsh language—. Also, you spoke about influencers and so on, but, again, a number of children and young people through the devices they use—. So, in terms of promoting, the mentrau iaith told us about some of the programmes that they have had in the past. Are all of those still part of the provision that you're looking at?

Absolutely. And also—. So, the technocratic side is working with manufacturers to get the Welsh language there in the first place, but the people side is getting people to understand that they can download SwiftKey and that SwiftKey can make predictive text available in Welsh and English at the same time, for example.

Thank you.

Basically, what we want to create is a situation where it's as easy to use Welsh as it is to use English.

Yes.

If it's easier to use English, and it is now on the phone—. I try to text in Welsh, and it does take hours to do it because it tries to turn all the Welsh words into English words on my phone. What we want to see is a world where people can use the Welsh language like they can use English, and that's particularly important for young people, I think. If it's easier to use English, people are going to use English.

That's the default. Thank you for that. We'll turn to Gareth.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. I want to focus on technology, still, but more in an operational sense, and understand how the Welsh Government, working alongside the likes of Canolfan Bedwyr and others, are investing and nurturing new developers that are immersed in Welsh language technology, because they say and have stated a need for resources to sustain current workforce whilst investing in those new developers within this space. So, how are you working collaboratively with them to enhance those and make sure that technology is properly used and focused in things like ARFer, which, as a committee we've worked with and had briefing sessions on. We've seen the good results that they can produce. So, is it a case of looking at the existing technology in that sense and investing and nurturing future technology to make sure that it keeps up with time in that regard?

Chair, I think that's a pretty good description of what we need, because I think what Gareth is talking about there is a sort of ecosystem where you create a system where you have leaders in the field, respected organisations that people can look to and can rely on, but where, around that, you have a system that supports the development of skills that will be needed for the future that is responsive to where innovation comes from. In this field, it can come from all sorts of organisations—it can be very, very small organisations that will have an innovative idea that they will be developing. I think that is what we are trying to create in Wales. So, we do have specific investments in Canolfan Bedwyr, in Cardiff University, in those very high level and very particular higher education courses. You can do an MSc in Bangor in language technologies. You can do one in Cardiff University in natural language processing and in artificial intelligence. So, at one end of the spectrum, you need to be creating the skills.

I myself believe, it's slightly to one side, but I think it's relevant, that the economic future will be one in which work will move to skills rather than skills will move to work. So, if you create a pool of people who are skilled, then work will gravitate to them. We've seen it in the cyber security industry in south-east Wales, and we need to do the same in this field as well. To do that, you've got to create a conveyor belt, haven't you? You've got to have people coming through the system.

There are a series of things that we invest in as well: the Technocamps scheme in schools, teaching children to code, sparking their interest. For some people, that will be long-term careers that they will take from that. The work we've done in M-SParc in Anglesey with the hackathon that they've been running there. Those are things that are designed to create the pipeline of people who may end up on those very high-level courses that are run in our university. So, that's the way in which we are trying to develop an ecosystem where there are, what they'd be called elsewhere, anchor points. The anchor points are the universities, Canolfan Bedwyr ac yn y blaen. But around that, you've also got this more experimental set of things going on, because this is, by its nature, an experimental area.

The nature of the funding—what we've heard as a committee, and in other committees such as Local Government and Housing Committee—doesn't necessarily allow for that long-term planning. So, do you think that the annual nature of the funding, currently, is sufficient? If not, would you, as Cabinet Secretary, consider changing that in the future to reflect those comments you've just made?

Chair, from my finance perspective, then, of course, we have lived through an extended period where the Welsh Government has only had a one-year budget. And the impact of Brexit, the impact of COVID—all of that ended up driving the UK Government into a position where they were annual budgets rather than the previous practice of three-year budget cycles. We've had an annual budget every year since 2017, and that does make planning ahead really difficult because as a finance Minister, I cannot offer certainty to other organisations where I don't have that certainty myself, or all I've got is a budget that lasts 12 months and I don't know what the budget will be next year. So, I absolutely recognise the points that people will have made to you, and I feel them very much myself as a finance Minister.

Have conversations changed or differed in the last 12 months, in terms of resolving some of those problems that have been around since 2017? What's the current picture looking like in terms of that relationship with the UK Government?

I hope that the next Senedd will have a different opportunity to the one we've had in this Senedd, because the comprehensive spending review in June did set out a three-year horizon for revenue spending and a four-year horizon for capital spending. And almost more important, it seems to me, Gareth, than that is that there's a commitment from the UK Government to conduct a CSR every two years. So, that means it's not just that we've got a three-year horizon now, but we will have a rolling three-year horizon, and that, I hope, will mean that, in the next Senedd, Governments will be able to come forward with budgets that last over that medium term. And that will mean that we will be able to invest in these sorts of areas where people do need to know that, if they're going to start a project, the money will be there next year and sometimes the year after as well. Jeremy and his colleagues are in conversations with the sector to plan for that. I'm afraid I don't think we're going to get there in the final budget of this session. If we could I would be very pleased indeed to be in that position, but I'm not sure that we will be, so at the moment, the plan is for one more annual budget. But in the next Senedd, we'll be in a different position and I think better equipped to respond to some of those points.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Just finally, I'd just like to ask if you're aware of the challenges that Canolfan Bedwyr face in ensuring that public bodies in Wales share data effectively and what your view or assessment is around that, and maybe what the Welsh Government can do better in terms of ensuring that data is shared effectively, so that all stakeholders can maximise the efficacy of sharing data in a way that's productive to what we're trying to achieve in terms of 2050 and all the things we've spoken about this morning.

Well, Chair, there is a tension here, isn't there? The legislation is data protection legislation and sometimes that is approached in what people who need to use data regard as an over-precautionary way, but the tension is that this is people's data. The news today has been dominated by an example where data ended up being shared that shouldn't have been shared, with all sorts of very highly adverse consequences. The public invest an enormous amount of money in creating this data, and there therefore is a public interest in making sure that the data is used properly for public purposes, of the sort that Canolfan Bedwyr is involved in.

I would like a regime around data that is enabling but doesn't compromise on those very important protections that are there for data. If we choose to share it, we have a right to expect that that sharing would be respected and our data wouldn't just be shared without any controls over it. So, that is the tension. Depending on which bit you're in, you are likely to think that the other half of it is either overdemanding or overprotective. Our job as a Government is to try and help navigate that in a way that has the public interest as our key guide in it all.

There is a particular area where we are concerned to try to do more than block some inhibitions. One of the things we are very lucky in, in the Welsh language, is that we have huge archives of material. The Welsh Government invested a significant sum of money—as I remember, because it was the last time I was the finance Minister—in making the broadcast archive at the national library happen. It has hours and hours and hours of Welsh language material in that archive. I am not sure that using it is as easy as it needs to be for these data sharing purposes.

The development Jeremy was talking about, where you get the transcription as you go along, what that depends on is a huge bank behind it of material, so that the artificial intelligence learns from all of that and then gets much better at what it's doing. We need to unlock some of that material that is available and could be used for data sharing, and therefore future developments. That's an area we've been talking about recently. We're looking to try to have some meetings with people who have some stake in those archives to try and get it released more quickly.

Thank you very much. To take us forward with that theme of data and research, Mike.

I'm always happy to talk about data. In answer to Heledd Fychan earlier, you said about the number of local eisteddfods that are taking place—I know of several of them—and the number of local events in Welsh. Do you know how many there are, and do you know where they are?

On the eisteddfod issue, yes. I probably will not recall it exactly, but, at the Urdd Eisteddfod, on the day that I was there, I visited the tent—is that the right word—where the people who are responsible for local eisteddfods were. I had a really interesting 10-minute conversation with them. They had a number—I think it was over 100 local eisteddfodau. They certainly had a list of exactly where all of them were. All that information is quite definitely readily available. On the broader question of do we know exactly how many Merched y Wawr meetings there are in Wales every week, and where they're happening, probably not.

But you know how many Merched y Wawrs there are. You should know about other events that are taking place. In Felindre, which is not in my constituency but is just outside, they have an annual Welsh language event to raise money for a local charity. Is anybody collecting all that data? If I ask, can you tell me what local eisteddfods, what Merched y Wawrs, and what events through the medium of Welsh occurred last year or are expected this year in Carmarthenshire, Swansea and Neath Port Talbot? Could I find it somewhere?

I think it would vary, wouldn't it? If it is an organisation with which we have a relationship, and often that's a financial relationship, yes, we would know. Merched y Wawr activity, Urdd activity, Clybiau Ffermwyr Ifanc activity—those organisations, because they receive Welsh Government money, we would be able to discover where they operate, how they operate, I'm sure. Whether we'd ever put it together in a comprehensive way and on a geographical basis, I'm not sure that I do know that.

The mentrau iaith would do that—

The mentrau iaith, yes—I guess it would be one of the things they would do in their localities. Whether, at a national level, we would capture a one-off charitable event that happened, I doubt that, because that's probably the other side of the line that you'd expect a Government to have a direct line of sight.

Moving on to another question on data, nobody seems to collect data on use. As you know, Cadeirydd, I speak Welsh to you most of the time I speak to you. Most other people here I don't speak Welsh to, and it comes down to ymddiried, doesn't it? Trust. Do you actually know who speaks Welsh? I speak Welsh every day, but it's a very small number of people to whom I speak Welsh. It has to have trust, really. If I trust somebody, I'm quite happy to talk Welsh to them. If I don't trust them, and I may make a mistake—in fact, I quite often make a mistake, as you know, Chair—you're not going to be in trouble afterwards. Does anybody actually collect this data of who speaks Welsh? Because the ability to speak Welsh and speaking Welsh quite often will have different numbers, won't they?

There are three standard measures that we use. Every one of them has problems with them. Every one of them has arguments that go on behind them as to what conclusions you can rightly draw from them. There is the census, which is the gold standard. There have been debates in the last few years about whether there will be another census. It's looking more to me now as though there will be one, but it probably will rely more on online returns than the previous ones have, and that will bring issues to do with data with that.

There's the annual population survey, which the Welsh Government sponsors. That, of course, shows several hundred thousand more people who say they speak Welsh than the census does. Why is that? We're doing work with the Office for National Statistic to try to understand why one sort of survey gives you one result and a different sort of survey tells you something so different. Then there has been the language use survey, which the Welsh Government used to sponsor. The last one was brought to a premature end because it began just as the first wave of COVID resulted in people not being able to go house to house. We're planning the next one now, and there will be one coming very soon.

Those are three big data sources. They all tend to tell you slightly different things, and they do tell you very interesting things, it seems to me. I was very struck by one of the figures. Of people who said they could speak Welsh, a very high percentage of them said they spoke Welsh every day. In a way, that surprised me a bit, because I think there are a lot more people like you, Mike, who can speak Welsh but who only do it in certain segments of their life, and if that segment isn't happening that day, they wouldn't be using it.

I speak Welsh to my wife every day, so I get that. Moving on to data, we know, from having looked at the census—let's just take from 1921 onwards—that the percentage of Welsh speakers has continually dropped. We know that there used to be contiguous movement between the areas with 75 per cent Welsh speakers going from, basically, north Wales in the Llŷn, almost all the way to the border of Swansea. We now know that that's no longer true and there are big gaps in it from census data. I hold a view, which you may not agree with, that when you've got 75 per cent of the people in an area speaking Welsh, it's a language that is natural to speak. When I go to Caernarfon, and I go to the bar, I order in Welsh, because that's what people do. If I go out in Morriston, I order in English, because that's what people do. This drive of what other people are doing—. My daughter lives in Waunfawr, which is one of the highest Welsh speaking areas.

What I'm asking is this: on Prosiect BRO, its scope, funding arrangements, whether something can be done to move some of those areas from 72 per cent, 73 per cent, 70 per cent up to 75 per cent. It's getting that critical mass. I see 75 per cent as the critical mass. You may see a different number as critical mass. I think that, when it's 75 per cent, if you see four people, you expect three of them to speak Welsh. When it goes down to 50 per cent you only expect two, and at 25 per cent it goes down to one. The natural tendency of people is to use the natural language. I don't know whether you agree with either statement or the view of it. Most importantly, what's going to happen regarding Prosiect BRO to increase that 68 to 70 per cent Welsh speakers up to 75 per cent to make it more the language of the community?

I agree with lots of the general points Mike Hedges was making. Where you draw the line in terms of percentages is, I think, something you could debate. The commission suggested 40 per cent as the figure they would use to distinguish those areas where Welsh is spoken every day compared to areas where it's in less use, so I think we could debate the percentage. But the basic proposition that we want to have parts of Wales at least where the language is just used every day in every part of life seems to me to be absolutely one that we want to protect and encourage. Prosiect BRO is part of how we are learning more about the detailed analysis of those communities with a higher density of Welsh speakers.

We're expecting the project to develop a model to identify and to continue to monitor language shift. Because that's what we are talking about here, aren't we? The paradox of Welsh in contemporary times is that it is losing ground in its cadarnleoedd, in the heartlands, while it is gaining ground in parts of Wales where the language is less frequently spoken. The biggest growth in the number of Welsh speakers in the last census was in Canton in Cardiff, and the greatest loss is in Sir Gâr, Carmarthen, where I grew up, where you would hear Welsh spoken all the time. If you went ‘down town’, as my mother would have said—‘Are you going down town today?’—Welsh would be around you all the time. As you passed people in the street, they would be speaking Welsh. If you went into a shop, they would be speaking Welsh. We've lost ground there, there's no doubt at all. That's where the greatest loss in Welsh speaking has happened, in these heartlands. That's partly why we started the commission, to look at those areas too.

Prosiect BRO is absolutely part of that. We're funding it. It is a project that draws on a lot of work that has been done in Scotland and Ireland in this field, and expertise there. It's a combination of Trinity St David here, Jesus College in Oxford and the University of the Highlands and Islands in Scotland. Those are the partners in Prosiect BRO. We have recently provided an additional investment to the project for it to concentrate on Carmarthenshire and the post-industrial south Wales Valleys in that part of Wales, because of concerns at the degree to which Welsh is no longer a community language to the extent that it once was in that part of Wales.

The research team are out in those communities where Welsh continues to be the everyday language—in Gwaen-Cae-Gurwen, in Tregaron, in Llangefni, for example. One of the recommendations of the commission's first report is that we should do a particular piece of work in a community—they propose in north-west Wales—where the language is at risk. It's often in working-class communities. That’s another thing about the Welsh language, isn't it? There's a great comparison with Catalan. Catalan was the language of the aristocracy, and Castilian was the language of working people. In Wales, English is the language of the aristocracy, and Welsh is the language of ordinary people. So we will take that recommendation. We are very close now to identifying that community to do some of the work that Mike has suggested.

My last question is again on data. I get boring on data. I apologise for that. In parts, certainly on the island of Ynys Môn, a lot of the problem there is people moving in who don't speak Welsh, and people who speak Welsh moving out. I'm not surprised that Canton scored highly, because the Welsh Government and other organisations have been moving the Llŷn and Ynys Môn to Cardiff bit by bit. What they've left is a gap behind. We know where people come from. On the data, have you analysed the effect of inward movement, mainly from England, on the percentage of people that the census is telling you can speak Welsh?

No, I don't think we have that specifically, and I think it would need to be handled extremely sensitively if you were, and I'd be a bit anxious about the basis on which we would carry out such work. What we do have is very good detail about patterns of migration, and these are parts of Wales that are losing population, and Wales tilts from west to east, doesn't it? Population drains from the west to the east.

You are right—canvassing in Pontcanna can remind you of what it must be like to canvass on the Llŷn peninsula every now and then, but that is because a big city attracts people from elsewhere for employment opportunities, but not just employment. That isn't the only reason, we know, and project Perthyn, for example, which we fund and has done lots of work in north-west Wales, is partly about community economic development, but it's also about the things that people want and expect to be able to do in their lives beyond work. Coming to Cardiff offers you a range of possibilities that won't always be available elsewhere.

Other cities are available. [Laughter.] Diolch, Gadeirydd.

Diolch. Diolch, Mike. Your point about losing ground but then gaining in certain areas, it reminds me of R.S. Thomas when he was addressing a Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament meeting at some point. He said we seem to be winning the battle but losing the war. I can't work out whether it would be this way around or that for that, but sobering and calonogol both at the same time, rhywsut.

At the same time, exactly.

Before we move on to the final set of questions from Lee, I just wanted to ask you, based on some of the questions that Mike asked about the census—. One of our papers to note today is a paper from you that's gone to Robert Chote. It mentions some of the changes, perhaps, that will be in the census next time. One of the issues that's been raised with us during this inquiry is the confidence gap, and the fact that so many people can speak Welsh, but for whatever reason—for some of the reasons that Mike has mentioned—they don't feel confident enough to use the Welsh language, and perhaps also they don't feel confident to identify themselves as Welsh speakers, so they don't put that down, perhaps, with the data. That can be a gap as well, because of that confidence gap. I know that from what you've said in that letter to Robert Chote that that's something that you are aware of. Is that something that—? I'm aware of time. Perhaps you could write to us if you have more detail about that, but that is something, I take it, that the Government will be looking at.

I'm happy to write to you, because it's so interesting, isn't it, how confidence impacts people. As Mike Hedges said, people tell me and people write to me saying, 'I'm not willing to use Welsh because other people judge me or criticise me when I do that.' Hopefully, that doesn't happen so often now, but the concern remains. I always say to people that the only way to raise confidence is to use the language. You do make mistakes. I murder things every time I speak Welsh, but the only way to do it is to do it.

Certainly. The title of our inquiry is 'Cymraeg for all?', but it could also be 'Cymraeg Pawb', 'Everybody's Cymraeg'. I'm very aware of time, so we'll move on to the final set of questions from Lee.

In that spirit, then, I want to ask about the strategy to use more Welsh in the workplace, and what your assessment is of how that is going, and what the next steps are.

Thank you very much to Lee for that question. I want to give greater attention to the use of the Welsh language in the workplace. Because, as I often say, there are two things—. There are two things, two ambitions, that we have as a Government. We want to create a million Welsh speakers, but also we want to double the use of the Welsh language as well. Where can we do that? Well, there are natural opportunities presented to us in the workplace. That's why I was eager to do more internally. If we are going to ask others to do this, then we'll have to show how we are doing it as a Government. Jeremy gave you the figures about the increase in the number of people in the Welsh Government who are learning Welsh and who are using the Welsh language as well. That's why technological possibilities are important to us, because they do provide those opportunities for people to use the Welsh skills that they have.

We depend on the National Centre for Learning Welsh also to do important work in this field. 'Cymraeg Gwaith', the programme that they run, more than 30,000 people now have participated in that scheme, and they've just created a new programme for people who work in the field of health and social care. The proactive offer has been available in that field now for almost a decade, and things have changed significantly. When you see people with the badges that state that they speak Welsh, you're willing to speak Welsh to them, because you know that they are going to be able to respond. So, there is more work under way on that. There's the 'Leading in a Bilingual Country' programme, a programme that we run. We've used that programme internally, but we're also using it with local authorities, and also with people in the private sector. That encourages people to increase the opportunities to speak Welsh in the workplace.

Lee asked, 'What about the future?' Well, we haven't referred this morning to the common European framework of reference for languages, CEFR. So, that was part of the Bill that went through the Senedd. To me, that is going to—. Well, the potential is there for the CEFR to do much more in future to show young people that, the fact that they're learning Welsh at school, that is going to create opportunities for them in the workplace in future. At the moment, when people advertise posts, the only choice that they have is to state 'essential' or 'desirable', isn't it? In future, employers will be able to say, 'We're looking for somebody with ability in the Welsh language at the level of B2 or B1', or whatever it might be, and people at school will be able to see, 'Well, the Welsh language skills that I have, they're going to be useful to me if I'm going to apply for that particular post'. So, for the future, I think that the CEFR will change how people think about the Welsh language in the workplace, and will do it in a way that will be supportive of the Welsh language at school and outwith school.

Well, I agree with the points about the role of the CEFR. I want to ask one specific question about the role of sport, Welsh in sport. We've heard from the Football Association of Wales about the success that they've had in using Welsh with children in particular. Have you thought about how this could be built upon?

Well, I agree with the Commissioner. She launched her report at the Urdd Eisteddfod, demonstrating where young people use the Welsh language outside of school. The world of sports was the one that came at the top of the list. It's not just in the sports field; young people use the Welsh language in the context of the arts—Welsh Language Music Day, the work in the theatre that the Urdd does—but sport was the area where young people said that they use the Welsh language naturally. And that's the point for me: to find the context where people use the Welsh language naturally. A century ago, it was in the chapel, wasn't it? People came together in the chapel, and that's where they spoke Welsh. Now, we'll have to seek other opportunities that are natural for people to use the Welsh language, and on the playing field is one of them. So, we are working with the FAW, and they've done excellent work, haven't they, to support the Welsh language—also the rugby union, the sports council. There is more work that we can do there, I think, with—

—the bodies who lead—. You know, the different governing bodies. The governing bodies of the different sports.

There's more that we can do there to provide greater assistance. We're lucky. When I went over to the Basque Country about 20 months ago, they were so jealous of the fact that, in Wales, we have teams. The Basque Country isn't in the world cup at all; it's only Spain that's represented there. We have teams, as we've seen over the past weeks, and that's something that we can use with young people to help to create more opportunities. So, for me, the point is to get those things at the higher level, such as the world cups and so on, but we also know, from the work that they've done in the Basque Country, that it's important to get people who can lead initiatives at the local level as well. People who encourage young people to develop skills in football, rugby, or whatever sport it might be, if they use the Welsh language, if they provide opportunities for people to use the language, then the language will flourish. So, we need to do it at both ends of the spectrum; that's what we're trying to do. The Urdd does exceptional work in this area. I went to a school in Cardiff South and Penarth where people from all corners of the world were out there on the field speaking Welsh, because they'd used the Welsh language in their sports. That's work that the Urdd is leading on, and we fund them to help them to do more of that work.

Thank you. Great. Okay?

Thank you.

Okay. Thank you. So, could I thank you for the evidence this morning? As I said, there may be some additional items that we will write to you about, and, if you could answer us in writing, that would be useful. There will be a transcript of what's been said sent to you for you to check for accuracy. But thank you very much to you all for the evidence this morning. It's been very useful to us all.

Thank you very much.

Thanks again.