Equality and Social Justice Committee

Thank you. Cathryn Morgan, could you just say who you are?

Yes. Good afternoon. I'm the equality and inclusion manager with Ceredigion County Council.

Very good. Lee Wenham.

Thank you. Yes, I'm Lee Wenham. I'm Swansea Council's head of communications and corporate planning and performance, and part of my area covers equalities and human rights.

Okay. We've got a lot of echo on your sound quality. I wonder if the sound engineer could just try and sort that out. And Sarah Capstick.

Good afternoon. I'm Sarah Capstick. I'm senior policy officer for social services and health with the Welsh Local Government Association, and I've been leading on some of the work around the Bill and engaging with Welsh Government officials.

Thank you very much. I'd like to start us off with two or three general questions. First of all, I wondered if you could just tell me how you meet the needs of BSL signers at the moment, and particularly in education, because that's one of our two priorities. I wonder if I could start with you, Cathryn.

Thank you. In education, we've got a hearing resource centre. We employ, as part of our additional learning needs team, a level 3 and a level 7 BSL signer to support children and adults. They teach children, and they also teach parents as well, and family members.

So, they're teaching children sign language, and teaching their parents sign language at the same time.

Yes, that's right.

And is that in a mainstream school or a dedicated special school?

We've got a dedicated hearing resource centre, but we've got a peripatetic teacher as well.

Very good. To Swansea Council, Lee, are you aware of how you manage the needs of deaf children who use sign language?

We have a dedicated deaf education team, and they support deaf learners and families. They provide advice to all of our schools. Some of our schools are implementing the BSL Curriculum for Wales guidance as well. That's the main provision throughout schools. We employ dedicated staff within social services as well. They would support, obviously, families with young children who would be attending our schools as well.

Ash Lister, you'll be aware that, across Wales, deaf children don't normally meet the milestones they're expected to meet according to their chronological age. I just wondered how you manage to tackle that. What are the barriers to tackling that?

I think, as colleagues have already mentioned, most local authorities have got those hearing impaired resource bases, but it's the capacity within those, and it's at what point the support actually allows them either to return to a mainstream education, or if they do need to continue in that specialist base. In terms of capacity, just from a Cardiff perspective, we do have issues where we have waiting lists, I believe, for children who are hearing impaired in accessing that specialist provision, but we do have the peripatetic teams going out and supporting our mainstream providers, but also the families, to develop their skills as much as possible. So, I'd probably point back to it being a capacity issue in terms of making sure that we've got the appropriate levels of support so that they do achieve those milestones.

Okay. And is that because of the shortage of interpreters, which we'll come on to later, or are there other issues?

I think school funding around additional learning needs is a real challenge for all local authorities. So, that is definitely a key factor in that. What we've seen, just on the local level, is we've had learners go through our hearing impaired resource base that have actually then gone on to become members of staff in that field. We see the progression, but it's about having the resource and the capacity to be able to fund those, as members of staff, to develop the workforce as much as we can.

Okay. Thank you. I wondered if you could tell us what involvement, if any, you or your organisations have had in the development of this Bill. Sarah Capstick, do you want to go first, because you did mention that you had been involved in this.

Yes, I'm happy to.

One second—Cathryn, did you want to comment on something from the previous question?

Yes, I'm sorry to interrupt, Sarah. I just wanted to mention that I was speaking with a member of the social care team who has been working with a young woman who wanted to follow a hairdressing course in further education, and she had to go out of Ceredigion and attend a college in England because we weren't able to provide for her needs here in Ceredigion—just to add to your evidence of what we have and haven't got.

Thank you for that. Sarah, your involvement in the Bill to date, presumably on behalf of the WLGA.

Yes, absolutely on behalf of the WLGA. The WLGA provided an initial consultation response to the development consultation back in January, and then we've also provided written evidence to this committee. In addition, I and another one of my colleagues met with some of the officials who were preparing the explanatory memorandum to go alongside specifically in regard to what might be involved in the engagement processes for the development of a delivery plan, some of which has been represented in the regulatory impact assessment in things like allowing regional engagement events to take place, but other elements we said we couldn't actually provide, which were things like what grades the staff involved would need to be at that stage. So, we have had some involvement, but we haven't actually been involved in drafting the Bill itself, just in providing additional information afterwards.

Okay. Before I come to Ash Lister, who I know will have had some involvement because of his charity work, Cathryn or Lee, have you had any involvement in the development of this Bill? If you haven't—

Me, no.

It's fine. Ash, have you been invited to comment on the shape of the Bill?

Not to my knowledge—I don't believe the trustees have. So, the foundation itself is to support children and young people who are hearing impaired with resources to access education. The charity meets only twice a year. It's very, very functional in its business. We try not to get involved in the policy areas, so I don't believe we have had any involvement with Mark in shaping the Bill.

Fine. Okay. Thank you for that. Obviously, there's a reasonable spectrum of views on this Bill. Apart from the evidence from the WLGA, we've had separately seven local authorities providing written evidence. Monmouthshire was the only one who thought that these issues could be dealt with under the Equality Act 2010, whereas Caerphilly was very precise in saying that, although the Equality Act provides that legal framework, it lacks the specificity and clarity needed to ensure equitable access for BSL users, which I thought was a useful pinpointing of the issue. So, I'll stick with you at the moment, Ash. Do you want to tell us whether you think that the Bill and its provisions are going to do the job they're setting out to do?

I think the WLGA definitely feels that the Bill will achieve what it needs to. I think there have been questions as to whether or not we need to legislate in order to achieve what the Bill is setting out. So, as already mentioned, there are strategic equality plans and other statutory reporting that already takes place within local government, where we do feel that quite a lot of the monitoring and progress could be carried out. I think the one thing that the Bill does introduce is the national adviser, which we very much welcome as a role, but I believe it's a question of how much of this could be delivered without the legislation, using what is currently legislated for—the provisions within the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 on statutory reporting of equality—and just seeing how much we could deliver without the legislation going forward.

One of the things it wouldn't do would be to establish BSL as a language in its own right, and I think that that is certainly one of the primary drivers of the mover of the Bill. Does anybody else want to comment on this specific point before I pass on to the next subject area? I'll take Lee first.

Thank you, Chair. We engaged with the consultation process from the Senedd, and we were supportive of the Bill in principle because we thought, as you say, it would give BSL that status—put it on an equal footing as a language and maybe embed a rights-based approach. At the same time, we felt there was a need for parity of access and that things like the cultural recognition of BSL would need to come through, and also about a practical framework for implementation. So, we probably welcomed the introduction of the Bill with some caveats, which we might come on to later, around some of the barriers and what we feel we would need in order to be able to implement it.

Okay. Thank you. Cathryn Morgan.

Yes, I do agree that the rights of deaf BSL signers should be covered by the Equality Act, but it's obvious that they're not, really. I've learned a huge amount since I've been asked to come and give evidence, which I should have known already, and I think, when we talk about the Social Services and Well-Being (Wales) Act 2014, which is a very good Act, the focus is on person-centred care, and that creates a sort of ad hoc response, in a way. Because it is person centred, so people are asking what do we provide, how do we ensure that deaf BSL signers use our services and can access our services, even using leisure centres and visiting our museums. That wouldn't particularly be covered by the social services and well-being Act, and yet they don't really have full access to all our services, and it's provided on an ad hoc basis, and, a bit like the active offer that the Welsh language enjoys, people shouldn't really have to ask—we should be very aware and knowing that there's a need, and people shouldn't need to ask for it.

Thank you for that reflection. I'd like to call Julie Morgan at this point.

Prynhawn da. I was going to ask you about some of the duties that are placed on you, and first of all to ask you all, really, about how confident are you that you'll be able to implement what's set out in the Bill, and how much time do you anticipate needing before you reach full compliance. Do you want to give an overall view, Ash, to start off with?

Yes. Thank you. So, the local government family do believe that we will be able to deliver on the requirements within the 12 months, but we would ask that the guidance accompanying the national strategy is issued as soon as possible. In our written evidence, we did ask that that happens within a month, the strategy, for the reason of ensuring that local authorities have got the time to develop and resource their services.

One of our concerns is making sure that we've got the adequate levels of resource within local government to deliver on the requirements. There isn't currently additional resource and capacity within local authorities, so, without the additional funding and development of the workforce, we would probably see some challenges.

Right. But you do see yourself being able to deliver in 12 months then, overall.

Overall.

Thanks very much. What about Ceredigion, then? Cathryn.

I mean, yes, we can develop a plan in consultation with the BSL community. We can develop a plan within the timescale. It's the quality of that plan and our ability to deliver that plan that's going to be key for people who use BSL, I think. As Ash said, we don't really have—. We will need resources to be able to deliver a good plan and make a difference for people.

I've been really drawn to—when I was looking into this and talking to people before this session—really drawn to looking at the way we support the Welsh language, particularly here in Ceredigion. We've got a full-time Welsh language officer here in Ceredigion, and her job is working, on a corporate basis, to make sure that everybody's aware of the Welsh language and the importance of it, and she brings the legislation and the reminders of the Welsh language standards to people, but also encourages people to use Welsh, small amounts of Welsh, in their everyday life, and responds directly to the Welsh language commissioner, and delivers workshops and training and develops resources. You know, the amount of work that she does is huge and, as a result, I feel we've got a pretty good Welsh language provision and response to people who want to use the Welsh language when they access our services. If we want to have parity for BSL signers, we're going to need that kind of resource, really. I don't know about all the other local authorities, but I do feel we've got a lot of work to do in Ceredigion.

Thank you. What about Swansea? What do you think, Lee?

I think we're broadly in line with the views already expressed by Ceredigion. I think the timescale is slightly ambitious. We'd want to get the engagement done effectively and properly with key stakeholders, and that will take some time. I think that the issue of resourcing this properly and having staff and also funding that we can call upon is a challenge, and that may well affect the timescales as well because, as colleagues have already said, without those in place, it could cause us some difficulties and some delays. So, we're confident that, with the right resourcing, we could implement it in time; without that, then I think that our confidence isn't so high.

Thank you very much. We've already had a bit of a discussion about—

Julie, Sarah would like to come in.

Sarah. Right. Sorry, Sarah.

Thank you. Just to add, I think that one of the barriers will be around, if there are any delays in translation, actually translating the delivery plans and the amount of need that there will be for translators, potentially, in a short period of time, which is one of the reasons why we've asked for the guidance to be out quite quickly after the national strategy, to try to make it so that we can actually manage that and not end up with a bottleneck, because I think if we end up with a bottleneck then actually I think all the public bodies could potentially struggle to meet the current timelines.

Yes. Thank you very much. We've already had some discussion about the Equality Act and the fact that there is going to be probably some sort of alignment with the Equality Act. I wondered if you could say some more about using existing reporting mechanisms for equalities to report on progress. How feasible do you think that is? Cathryn, did you want to speak?

Yes, I can come in on that question, of course, but I wanted to add a point to Sarah's previous point about the need for interpretation. It's the translation of the plans, but also, if we're all going to be engaging with our local BSL community at the same time in order to develop the plan, that's going to be a huge draw at the same time. I don't know if there's any way of timetabling in engagement so that we share BSL translators out equally. So, I just wanted to make that point on the previous question.

Thank you. Do you want to go on? Yes, it's fine.

Yes, in terms of using the Equality Act, it should be happening as part of the current legislation, the Equality Act. What we find when we're developing our equality plan is that there are so many areas that we're keen to do things about and the different council teams say, ‘We're going to focus on this; we're going to focus on this’, the plan becomes quite large and disjointed. The last plan that we developed, 2024 to 2028, because there was a big focus on the ‘Anti-racist Wales Action Plan’ that Welsh Government had produced, we were trying to align it to that and support Welsh Government in the delivery of the ‘Anti-racist Wales Action Plan’, but still there were other actions within the plan that were separate to anti-racist Wales. It's a plan within a plan. So, we could include an action in our strategic equality plan to say that we will develop a plan that describes how we will progress and improve services for the deaf community, but that would be a plan within a plan. So, that's one way of doing it, I guess.

Right. What about Lee? Have you had any thoughts about this?

Yes. So, I think that our initial thoughts were that we would incorporate it, or we would like to incorporate it, as part of our annual equalities reporting process and timescales. We'd look to the guidance so that we got clarity about what we would need to be reporting on, but that would certainly be our preferred route, because we think that it sits better within that overall equalities reporting structure and it saves on time and resources as well.

Right. Thank you. And what about Sarah or Councillor Ash?

I'm happy to speak. I think the way it's currently set out for the reporting is that progress would only be reported after 12 months, and we're concerned that that would then lead to a lot of ad hoc requests coming in from either Welsh Government or from the adviser, because they wouldn't have up-to-date information, so, by tying it into the existing equality reporting, it would bring it into the council scrutiny processes, but also make sure that there were regular annual updates that could be accessed by both the adviser and Welsh Government and would be publicly available.

Julie, can I come in?

Yes.

I think the key issue here is there are lots of good reasons for bringing this into the general equalities reporting, but how would you ensure that BSL didn't get lost amidst all these other plans? As has already been described by Cathryn, the focus has been on different things, not on BSL.

Yes. And I think Cathryn's point about plans within plans is a really important one when it comes to local government. We're trying to deliver on the ambitions of Welsh Government and also our local communities, so trying to tie both those in amongst the frameworks that currently exist is a real challenge.

I think, to pick up on some of Sarah's points about that it would feed into local government current reporting, you'd have elected members having that oversight as well, so, if you were to develop a champion's role within each of the local authorities, just to make sure there is still that person, and then it doesn't just get tied to whether or not it's in the strategic equalities plan, but, as you've already mentioned, are we discussing it when we're talking about education, when we're talking to unpaid carers and their role in interpreting for family members who may be deaf or hard of hearing. So, I think there are lots of different ways. It's always a challenge; I think it's just something we need to be honest about. But I think, in terms of the current mechanisms that are there, if you have those champions, people to raise the profile as much as possible—which is obviously the aim of the Bill—then I think that could be achieved.

Thank you. And then lastly from me, the Member in charge of the Bill has said that local authorities may choose to work individually or with regional partners to produce a local BSL plan. So, do you believe that there would be benefits in working together regionally, or is there anything that might prevent that?

Cathryn had her hand up a moment ago, so do you want to go to her first?

Cathryn?

Thank you. Sorry, I seem to be coming in slightly late on questions. And it is linked, actually, Julie, to this question. I've been reading other BSL plans that have been developed in Scotland and England, and one of them included other public sector partners in their plan, so they said, 'The fire and rescue service will do this, the police will do this, the local authority will do this, the further education college will do this.' So that's another potential of looking for timescales of plans of linking in with public services boards work, which brings me on a bit, I guess, to this question about the potential of working with regional colleagues, because some PSBs are regional anyway, so we've got that link, we've got that relationship.

So, I think there are lots of things we could do regionally, like—. We haven't got a BSL video explaining our safeguarding processes on our website; that's something we could certainly do on a regional basis, because we've got a regional safeguarding board. And there are other things we could do—maybe joint training together, maybe engaging with people. When I was looking up the number of people who used BSL in Ceredigion, from the census of 2021, it was 16 people. I don't think that's correct, but if we're going to have—. Some of the other plans I looked at, they had a biannual get-together with policymakers, service providers and the BSL signing community to help develop the plan, and also to help monitoring it, so that would be useful on a regional basis, perhaps—as long as you have funding to cover people's transport costs, of course. And we'd need Welsh to BSL and English to BSL translators like that. But I can see lots of potential for working regionally on elements, but also maybe working with other local public sector partners too.

Thank you. Swansea—Lee?

Thank you. Yes, we're supportive of regional working and we think there'd be a number of benefits. One would be around things like sharing interpreter capacity and expertise, which, clearly, would be an issue with all 22 councils going after a very small pool of people, that we would be able to have some consistent commissioning standards, that we might have improved data comparisons by being able to work across regions, and also we'd hope to consult on some aspects regionally, although we'd be really keen not to lose that local voice within the region. So, we'd need to think about that, but we think there are a large number of benefits to working regionally at the moment.

Right. Ash, anything to add to this?

Just to re-emphasise the point that there are currently those bodies that exist, those partnerships that exist. I'm the deputy chair of the Cardiff and Vale regional partnership board, and I know that there's more work we could do there around BSL. I think, again, it just strikes back to the issue around capacity and making sure that if all public bodies are doing this work to develop their plans, and making sure that we've got the actual engagement with our signing and deaf communities, then there needs to be the appropriate resource. As Cathryn alluded to, it's not as simple as having someone who can sign and interpret from English into BSL. It is also the Welsh language being a key factor in this, and focusing on some of our more rural communities, how they access those regional partnership events as well.

Thank you. I don't know whether Sarah had anything final to say on this.

I have nothing further to add to Ash's points.

Thank you.

Thank you, Chair.

We're now going to take a two-minute break to enable the signer to swap over.

Mick. Can we unmute Mick Antoniw?

Am I unmuted? I just wanted to ask another couple of questions about the BSL strategy and guidance. You've already commented to some extent on that, so it's really directed to whoever feels it's most appropriate, probably WLGA, just more generally. The strategy will require the development of some sort of common strategy across various public bodies, and that in itself is undoubtedly going to be challenging. I wonder what your thoughts or maybe your concerns are about how it will be feasible to develop that common strategy across all those public bodies. What are the challenges to actually being able to achieve this? As local government, you work regularly with a variety of public bodies to achieve that. So, probably over to you Cathryn.

Sorry, I'm not WLGA. I've just noticed that the signer was pinned to the speaker, but is now quite small at the top, so a BSL signer maybe wouldn't be able to see them if they were following this session.

We can certainly see them as—. Go ahead. Did you want to answer Mick's question?

No, I'll leave it to Sarah, thank you.

Okay. Sarah.

Sorry, Mick. Can you just repeat part of the question?

Yes. It's really just with regard to the strategy and guidance. Obviously the duty is going to apply across various public bodies, but having some sort of consistency and engagement, how are you actually going to achieve that? What concerns do you have about being able to achieve that? You traditionally work in a variety of areas across public bodies, but this is something that does require a certain degree of consistency, doesn't it? So, I'm just wondering what, maybe, your concerns are about how that would be achieved.

Yes, thank you for repeating. Yes, I think some of the concerns are around making sure that there's equal access, so that if we've got engagement events in the south of Wales where we've got quite a few translators who might be able to attend, but then in the north or mid Wales where we might have a shortage, making sure that there's some parity across the whole of Wales, so that everybody has the opportunity of either in person or online as options.

I think that there's something around having a national strategy, but then needing to be able to identify what's happening locally, as there might be very local issues that need to be addressed that might get swallowed up in a full national. We've seen that in a few other programmes where, because we're focusing on just the big picture, we might miss actually what's important to those individuals on the ground. But I think it comes back to how good the guidance is, as to can we make sure that it's consistent and whether the funding and resourcing is behind it, because I think if there isn't, then that's where the biggest risks normally come from, because if there isn't the funding to do it and we're asking each local authority to find funding, or each health board, then that's where you're unlikely to get equality across.

Sarah, you've actually started talking about the guidance, which is one of the areas I wanted to go into, but it naturally leads into that, and you also started going into the issue that was mentioned a bit earlier, and that is of resources. Could you perhaps tell us what you think the challenge is in resources, because it's obviously something that we're going to be looking at with regard to the demands that this legislation is going to create, and how we can actually achieve that? So, again, I suppose, more your concerns about the actual delivery of that consistency then. Are we up for it? Is there a significant resource issue, a significant skills issue as well, I suppose?

I think all of the above. I think there are the sufficiency issues around translators and the accessibility of them. So, if there are only 54 translators for the whole of Wales, then that poses potential issues if all 22 local authorities, plus the seven health boards, plus all the other public bodies need to access that same resource at the same time, and at the same time that they still need to be delivering the translation services for other things, because everything else shouldn't be stopping just because we've got a new strategy and we're developing plans.

There's currently no funding being identified for this, so does that then need to be found within other budgets? We know that all the council budgets are tight. We've recently done our finance reporting and gathering of that information, and we know that things are not getting any easier for council budgets. So, I think all of those things come into play, and then obviously we've got different skills in different public bodies as well, which might add to the challenge of there might be some areas where we need to train more people up to be able to deliver. They might be used to doing engagement, but not necessarily with the BSL translation.

Thank you for that very comprehensive answer. I'm going to ask a little bit in a minute about the role of Welsh Government within this and Welsh Ministers, but I'm just wondering, from Swansea and Ceredigion, Lee and Cathryn, whether you're more or less in agreement with what Sarah's just said, or whether you wanted to add anything to it. Yes, Lee.

Yes, certainly in agreement. But also, I think, for us particular issues would be lack of funding at the moment to train existing staff. And I know that our social services department also have problems recruiting staff, because there aren't many people out there to actually apply for jobs, so two key issues for us.

Okay. Thank you. And Cathryn.

Thank you. I was trying to do some number crunching on actual costs, and I noticed that Shropshire Council have just put a three-year contract out to tender to deliver interpretation and translation services across their county. They were offering £14,500 per annum for that contract, and that was based on 187 interactions, but then, as Sarah said, it's reliant on having translators available.

But it's more than just interpretation and translation, really. We need to have information online, videos online on our website, and there's a huge amount of work to do there. I know there are some developments within AI to do this, but I don't think it's completely there at the moment. And really, we're talking about access to services, like I said before: libraries, and leisure centres and museums.

So, at the moment, we've got a BSL course—it's level 1 and it's for three terms—that's been advertised to staff. It's £150 per person and an extra £126 for the exam, and that's just level 1. To compare, again, with the Welsh language, for this course you've either got to find the money yourself or ask if there's money within your team's budget to cover it, and also it's in the evening, so you're not really doing it within work time. Whereas with doing Welsh language classes, particularly if we're saying you need to be proficient in Welsh within two years of taking up the post, which is linked to some of our jobs, people can then access free Welsh classes within work time. So, there's a real disparity there.

In terms of the cost for learning BSL to a standard where you could actually communicate, which is more than level 1, I was talking to someone who said the police have put a few officers on a training course, and it costs £600 to £700 for one person to get to level 3, and they're just really only halfway there. So, it depends, really, if we're looking at interpreting and translation or actually people knowing about BSL and being able to use it in the community with BSL signers.

I think it's probably a mixture of those, isn't it, and this, of course, is going to be dependent on the guidance. But what you're highlighting there—I hope I'm not putting words into your mouth—is that you have a real concern that the ability to deliver some of the requirements is going to be extremely difficult within the current resource situation. Is that a fair comment?

From the people I've spoken to, the will is there, but there are serious concerns about the ability to deliver.

Okay. Well, thank you for that. Sorry, Chair.

Mick. Councillor Lister wants to come in. Could I just ask if there's a standard that you currently adhere to in relation to the Equality Act? I don't mean you, personally; I mean the WLGA.

There certainly should, under the Equality Act, be that standard set for all local authorities and all public bodies to make sure they're meeting that requirement. I think, once public services identify that there is a need, then we do our best through the Wales Interpretation and Translation Service or local resource to make sure that we're meeting the needs of those individuals so that they can access public services. Just to reiterate colleagues' points about that level of resource, particularly a lot of it is focused in the south-east corner of Wales, with just 54 translators and interpreters, so it does put a huge pressure on. And, as Cathryn alluded to, there's that level of disparity as well. Sixteen communicators through BSL identified in that county through the census doesn't necessarily sit that comfortably, and it's something I would probably question as well, 'Is that accurate?'

I was just going to go back to Mick's earlier point around the willingness to work on a regional partnership level. I think there has to be a question and probably direction from Welsh Government on what that would look like. You've got several different footprints across Wales: you've got 22 local authorities, seven health boards plus the additional NHS trusts, three fire authorities, four police authorities, and you've got regional partnership boards, public services boards, et cetera, cetera. So, at what point would you give direction that that was the correct footprint that those public bodies should work under to develop a plan? And it's how they then ensure that they are meeting the needs of all BSL communities across that regional footprint—so, getting them to consultation events, making sure that their input is heard and valued, and then the delivery after that. I think that could pose a real challenge as well, without that relevant direction from Welsh Government.

Thank you, Ash, for that, because that takes me on to the final point I want to ask. The Bill, of course, has provision for the BSL plans to be revised. Welsh Ministers will have the ability to ask public bodies to actually revise their plans. But I think where it's taking us to is what actually do we think the role of Welsh Government should specifically be within that, because this power, if exercised, does apply a supervisory role for Welsh Ministers, and certainly a certain amount of oversight from Welsh Government. What do you think the specific role of Welsh Ministers, or the relevant Welsh Minister, should be within the delivery of this legislation?

I think it's just about ensuring that clarity of direction of how the plan should be developed, explicitly what should be done on a national level, whether that's around workforce development or setting standards, and in addition to that workforce development, actually looking at a recruitment campaign, where we've seen Welsh Government stepping in in the past, around the social care workforce, speech and language therapists, et cetera. Ensuring that there is that role being played by Welsh Government there, but otherwise, if they are going to allow the local delivery plans to be developed in partnership across a regional footprint, explicitly what is the role of those public bodies in that area to develop their plan around, and what is going to sit at a national level.

Thank you, that's very helpful. I presume there's probably broad agreement with that. I don't know if anyone else wanted to come in. If not, Chair, that brings my questions to an end.

Thank you very much. Can I now bring in Jane Dodds?

Good afternoon, everyone. Now, if it's okay, I just want to focus on how we can work with deaf communities, and deaf people too, in developing this legislation, and how local authorities will do that too. So, I'd like to ask, first of all, if I may, about listed public bodies. How do you believe that these bodies can engage and collaborate with deaf communities, and with deaf people too? Who would like to go first? I don't know who would like to go first. Cathryn, go for it.

I'm happy to go first on that. The Welsh Government has done quite a lot of collaboration work with the deaf community already to develop this Bill, and I'm sure that you will to develop the guidance as well, to help us. As I said earlier—

Well, that was my second question, but I will come back to that. Thank you.

Okay. When I was reading the LGBTQ+ community plan, there's a lot of evidence there of what people are saying across Wales, and I'm sure that the same thing will happen with this Bill, but we need to listen to local people as well. The barriers, I think, are, once again, the lack of interpreters available to do it, especially if we're all doing the same work at the same times. I succeeded in speaking with a deaf person before this session, but it was quite tight getting that interpreter in time in order for us to be able to have that conversation. So, those are the barriers, I think. If we can collaborate as a region or, I don't know, link up in some way to co-ordinate our use of interpreters, perhaps, in order to learn. And as I said, other local authorities conduct an event twice a year, a face-to-face event twice a year, in order to speak to local deaf people or those who are interested to see what the plans are and to monitor the development as we go forward through the plan.

Thanks, Cathryn. Does anyone else have anything to add on this, please? Any other views or another situation? Lee, go for it.

Thank you. In Swansea, we have a co-production strategy and we would be really keen to co-produce our strategy and action plan with the deaf community and representative groups such as Swansea deaf club, and also more local clubs. We'd also like to do some targeted outreach and work with people through the lived experience panels. It would be really important for us to get that feedback and to set other feedback loops on issues such as commissioning and existing services, so that we really get that information from people who are living that experience at the moment, but making sure that they can actively develop that strategy with us.

Thank you very much. And Sarah, or Ash in the room, do you have anything that you'd like to add, or not?

I think just to touch on that, obviously, as has already been mentioned, there are a number of different methods for engagement, and I think the important thing is just making sure that our deaf community who do engage feel that their voice is valued in everything that they share, and that lived experience really, really is key. I've met with members of the deaf community in Cardiff previously, and across other parts of south Wales in particular, and recognise that there is a real frustration that they don't always feel that their voice is valued. So, it's how we link that to local government delivery plans or public body delivery plans to make sure that they feel that value in being included.

And finally, Sarah.

Thank you. Yes, I think there are some good examples where the deaf community have been engaged, or BSL signers themselves, where it's been around specific services they've been accessing, whether it's specific services for the deaf community or other services that they are accessing for other reasons. I think the other thing just to be aware of is that, according to the RNID's own website, 43 per cent of BSL signers are not classed as deaf, so there's something around needing to make sure we're engaging with all BSL signers as well as the deaf community, to make sure that we're getting all those different views, because there might be different reasons for why people are signers or not. But there's also a group within the deaf community who don't use BSL, and engagement with them is going to be just as important, because actually they might be the ones who would most benefit from the outcome of this Bill. But we need to know other specific barriers for them as well, so I think it's bringing it all in together.

Thank you very much. I'd like to touch on one thing that Cathryn noted, that is, is it important to you that the guidance on collaboration with deaf communities is included in the legislation? I assume that the answer will be 'yes', but if you could give that some consideration.

And I'd also like to ask one final question if I may. Could you tell us how we can ensure that there is accountability to the deaf community in relation to this legislation? It's fine to say that we'll engage and we'll collaborate in order to develop the legislation, but how can we all ensure that there is actually accountability to deaf people and deaf communities too? Thank you. I don't know who'd like to go first on that one.

I'm happy to kick things off. Diolch, Jane. I think, yes, in terms of ensuring that there are engagement requirements within the legislation, but also ensuring that there is flexibility as to what that looks like. I think there could be a real challenge for some of our minority communities, where they feel that it is just a tick-box exercise in terms of their engagement, particularly if it is legislated for. So, I think ensuring that there is still that flexibility for public bodies—local government in this instance—to do it in the way that they feel best. Cathryn and Lee have given different examples of how they would look to engage with the deaf communities, and they're just as valid as one another. There are plenty of other examples across local government, I feel, where we know we can do that public engagement in a good and positive way. So, definitely welcome that inclusion, but, I think, in quite a broad sense, so that there is still that flexibility.

Thank you. Does anyone have anything to add? Cathryn, please.

First of all, yes, it is important that what deaf people believe is included in the guidance. But, as Sarah said, we're not just talking about deaf people here; the families of deaf people use BSL as well. I was speaking to someone and she teaches an autistic individual, because they prefer to use BSL because it's quieter and suits their communication style better. So, it's not just deaf people that we're talking about here.

And in terms of that accountability, that is the role of the adviser, isn't it, the BSL adviser that is perhaps going to be part of this?

It's just great to get your views as to how we can ensure that that actually does happen, particularly from your own perspective.

Yes, I think if a BSL adviser is appointed, then that will be a little bit like the commissioner for children and young people, and the older people's commissioner, I would have thought, but perhaps other people have a different view on that.

Thank you, Cathryn. I think Sarah wanted to come in.

Yes, thank you. I think the adviser will have a role very similar to the violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence adviser, and be able to ask questions. I think it's one of the reasons for the accountability, for wanting it within the equality reporting, so that it will fit within the structures for councils for accountability, which I think Councillor Lister has already explained. And that might be different for ourselves as public bodies, rather than for some of the other public bodies listed, that, actually, that accountability will be built in. And if there is that annual reporting, the adviser and the Ministers would be able to challenge, if they saw something not happening. So, it does build in the accountability.

Thank you very much. That's all from me, Chair. Thank you.

Thank you. If we just take your first question, and then we'll have a break.

Thank you. Good afternoon. Returning to that point about accountability, there is no provision in the Bill in relation to complaints from BSL signers. So, could I just ask you all what the current process is within your organisations in order to enable BSL signers to make complaints?

Diolch, Sioned. I would just probably reiterate the responsibilities within local government about being a public body and having to have its own internal complaints processes that people can follow. There's then the Public Services Ombudsman for Wales, and any decisions can be called in for judicial review. I would probably emphasise that that is a process for everyone—so, something that local authorities, public bodies in general, should be going through—to make sure that there is a fair and consistent process for anyone, regardless of any additional needs they may have or communication barriers, to make sure that they can make those complaints—and have them resolved, being the key point there.

Yes. Cathryn.

Thank you. I agree with Ash, but I did ask this question to our complaints manager specifically, and we have no formal mechanisms in place, but everyone has a right to make a complaint. But we don't have anything formal in place, and I know that we don't have an online video to show people how they can complain.

Thank you. That was what I was going to ask next, in fact, so you got ahead of me there. Do you have any sense of—? Sarah, perhaps you could respond, or Ash, in terms of the WLGA as a whole. Are you doing any work to look into whether councils have a consistent approach to this in terms of, for example, providing a video to explain the complaints process?

I'll probably let Sarah come in, because she'll have better knowledge of anywhere where that has happened, but just to emphasise that the WLGA does its best to share that best practice across the local government family. But I'll hand over to Sarah.

Thank you. I'm not aware that there is anything specific around the complaints procedure, but I know that the safeguarding business units across the whole of Wales are working together to develop one referral form for all safeguarding, and one of the things that they have got either on an agenda that's just been or one that's coming forward is actually how they could do that with BSL. So, whilst it's not complaints, it's something that has never been discussed before.

Diolch.

Okay. We'll take a short break now just to change over the interpreters.

Sioned Williams, back to you.

Thank you very much. We have spoken a little bit about the role of the BSL adviser, and the Bill will require the Welsh Government to appoint an adviser. Are you satisfied with the proposed duties and powers for the adviser? Is it clear to you what the relationship will be with the listed public bodies? Who would like to start on that? Ash.

I'm happy to again. Diolch, Sioned. We definitely understand the role of the adviser and, as we've previously mentioned, it's similar to other Government advisers and commissioners who have that responsibility to hold public bodies and Welsh Government to account to deliver on this. I think, just to pick up on one of Sarah's earlier points about concerns around ad hoc requests for data, without having to get that real consistent and manufactured reporting mechanism in place, there are just concerns that it could become a little overwhelming for different public bodies, local government in this instance, to respond to the adviser in a way that is actually constructive for the adviser and the Government as well. But I'm not sure if Sarah wants to add anything else to that.

Sarah.

Yes, happy to add to it. I think that it's really useful to know that it's going to be a very similar role to one that councils are already used to engaging with, in the VAWDASV adviser. I think that the fact that they will be able to ask questions, they will be able to provide advice, is really helpful. I think, as Ash has already highlighted, though, probably our biggest concern is that, if there isn't regular data going through, that we're going to have a lot of ad hoc requests, and, because they're ad hoc, we won't have the systems built and in place, which will then result in probably the most expensive way of finding out information, because we'd have to then reach out across possibly the whole council, depending on what the questions were.

I suppose the other thing that is missing is there's no indication as to how long a time frame there would be to respond to the adviser. Now, it might be that it would depend on the question, but if there's no guidance there is a risk that, actually, too short a deadline is given, and therefore either incomplete information or a public body would have to say, 'Actually, we're just not going to be able to meet that requirement.'

Thank you. Does anyone else want to come in on that? No. Right. I just wanted to ask you: the RNID has suggested that the BSL adviser should be able to investigate cases where a listed public body is not adhering to their local BSL plan. That's different, isn't it? The commissioners can do inquiries, of course, but the adviser—in terms of what's in the legislation at the moment—doesn't have those powers. So, what are your views on that? Do you think that the adviser should be able to have inquiry and intervention powers?

If I kick off again—

Yes, Sarah. Oh, sorry.

No, go on, Sarah.

Sarah, yes.

Thank you. I think there is something around the way that the adviser will be able to ask questions of public bodies, which should mean that the public bodies would then need to investigate, and then you'd be able to use the complaints processes if things were not coming back as they should be. So, it's already kind of built into some of the scrutiny. I suppose it's that issue of, as an adviser, it's one person, and their capacity to be able to investigate, and also that it might be something where they've got a lot of specialism or it might be something that they hardly know anything about. So, I think allowing it to have that question asked—it could even be asked through the ombudsman system, to actually enable that to be followed up, rather than it be something that they'd be expected to do, because it might be that then they'd be overloaded with investigations and not actually be able to follow through on making sure that the plans are being delivered.

Diolch. Ash, would you like to come in?

Yes. I think Sarah's covered a lot of what I was going to mention, but I think in terms of being able to hold the public bodies to account, to ensure that they are delivering on the requirements, local authorities have got their scrutiny functions, fire and rescues have got the authorities, public services boards et cetera. So, I think the relevant processes exist to make sure that any complaints and concerns can be investigated. I think the role of the adviser is to highlight them to those relevant authorities, and then advise the Government on how we avoid them in the future and actually make things better, rather than the ability to hold those kinds of inquiries—at this point in time, at least.

Okay, thank you. Thank you very much, Chair.

Diolch yn fawr.

Oh, sorry. Cathryn wants to come in.

Cathryn, briefly.

Briefly, yes.

Thank you. I was just thinking about the rights of BSL users. At the moment, they don't get a particularly good service from us in the public sector, and I think it's important to ask that community what their views are on that question, in order to be fair to them.

Yes. Thank you.

Thank you. Could I now call Altaf Hussain to ask your questions?

Thank you very much, Chair. My area of questioning is about the barriers to implementation, and how much resource do you think will be required to cover the cost of developing and reporting on local BSL plans. Yes, Cathryn. Can you hear, yes?

I'm happy to speak to—. To be honest, it depends if you want it done well, or badly, I think. I spoke earlier about the Welsh language officer, who is full time with us and develops the plan and ensures compliance and ensures people are aware, and doesn't do it with a stick, but provides carrots to learn the Welsh language. So, if we've got a full-time BSL officer to work with BSL signers in Ceredigion to develop a really good plan that is aspirational and will make a difference, then a full-time officer plus, really, the cost of enough interpretation and translation services—I mentioned Shropshire had put a contract out with £14,500 per annum to make sure they had an interpreter and translator present at meetings and could also translate policies and strategies—and training for front-line staff, awareness raising for senior management at least, and training for front-line staff at £600 or £700 for a level 3 course, which is halfway there, for a lot of staff as well, so we don't have just one member of staff who can speak for the whole council at things—it's a lot of resource, I think.

Lee, how about you, Swansea?

Very similar to Cathryn. I think it's hard to say at the moment exactly what resource would be needed, but the areas covered by Cathryn—certainly a full-time officer, and then having a budget available in order to be able to commission services—would be the bare minimum. From there, it's hard to say what else we would need until we see the guidance, but I would certainly advocate a full-time officer when we look at our council, in the same way that Cathryn does with the Welsh language. It is resource intensive. It's obviously very worthwhile, but we do need a certain amount of resource. So, yes, I would agree with Cathryn fully.

Sarah, do you want to share any thoughts?

Yes, thank you. I think it'll depend, to some extent, on the requirements in terms of what's needed, which I think both Lee and Cathryn raised. In regard to the RIA itself, it includes certain costs around an expectation of the length of the document. Given we don't know the length of the strategy and we don't know what the guidance is going to say we need to include, it's very difficult to know if 2,000 words are realistic or not. Also, it will depend on if public bodies have to do their own plan or if we can actually do regional ones as well as regional engagement, or if each local public body needs to do their own individually. It'll depend on what resources are needed and at what grade, and that might be different across all the different public bodies, depending on where they would see this role sitting.

There are specific questions that the WLGA has raised about the finance elements, and I think the fact that we are misquoted from our first consultation response in the explanatory memorandum where it says that we came up with a figure—that was never our figure; we were actually questioning it in the first consultation—adds to that kind of 'We don't have a huge amount of confidence.' We already know the national joint council figures are out of date that are quoted, because the 2025-26 rates have already been announced, and it makes reference to the Northern Ireland Council for Voluntary Action pay and grading document, which doesn't apply in Wales. So, there's a lot in there that leads us to have concern that maybe the costings are a little bit low, and it doesn't build in any part of the delivery, which is a lot of what Lee and Cathryn were talking about. Once we know what we need to do, is it that we need that that post, like many organisations will have that lead person for the Welsh language? But none of those costings are included. So, I suppose at the moment there is concern that it could cost a lot more and also, with the sufficiency issues, costs could suddenly go up.

Thank you. Coming to my last question, Chair, the RIA does not estimate the cost of measures that listed public bodies may decide to undertake as part of local BSL plans. To what extent will those costs be covered by existing budgets? And, do you think any additional funding will be required? If so, why? Yes, Cath, you can carry on now.

I'll come in. We've been facing real-time budget cuts year on year and the pressures and the amount of services we deliver are either staying the same or are increasing. So, every time a new Bill or legislation or guidance comes in, obviously it puts more pressure on us—not that I'm saying this isn't needed. So, yes, it's going to be very difficult. We won't be able to really develop and deliver a good plan within existing resources and that's evidenced, really, by what we're doing at the moment because we should be doing more because the rights of BSL signers or deaf people are protected by the equality Act, and what we're doing is responding on an ad hoc basis, which is person centred, one could say, but not mainstream. So, we could do more if we had more resources, definitely.

Sarah, do you want—?

Yes. I think any activities will need to be fully funded from additional funding, because we'll still need to provide the ad hoc individual things that are person centred that we already do. So, I know that the original consultation that ended back in January said there would be some cost savings. We've always asked what those cost savings are because we can't see them. So, we know that it's investment rather than cost for BSL signers and wanting to do better. But, actually, if we haven't got that funding, councils have to balance our budgets. So, it will just add to the pressures that councils are already managing and so it needs to be built in. Otherwise, it almost becomes that tick-box exercise that we all don't want it to be; we want there to be real change for BSL signers.

Thank you very much. Any other thoughts? Thank you, Chair.

Thank you very much. Thank you very much for your contributions today. We'll send you all a transcript of your contributions. Cathryn, you'd like to add something, is that right?

I would. I'm very sorry.

That's all right. Go ahead.

Am I allowed to make a cheeky request? Although I haven't—

Can you make it briefly, whatever it is?

Yes, I will. The Bill uses the term 'Iaith Arwyddion Prydain' on the description of it. In Ceredigion, we tend to use 'Arwyddiaith Brydeinig' and I'm just wondering if you could look into using the term 'arwyddiaith', because it's a slightly nicer, gentler term for 'British Sign Language'.

Thank you very much for that. We'll take that into account when we're writing our report to the Member who's taking forward this Bill.

So, we're going to send you a transcript. Please do correct it if we've, in some way, not recorded your contributions accurately. Otherwise, we thank you very much for your participation.