Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee

Good morning and welcome back. We move on to item 3, namely the annual scrutiny of arm's-length bodies. Today, we have an evidence session with the Welsh Language Commissioner. I'll ask the commissioner to introduce herself for the record.

Efa Gruffudd Jones, Welsh Language Commissioner.

And Osian.

Osian Llywelyn, deputy Welsh Language Commissioner.

Thank you very much for joining us. We have an hour and a quarter with you this morning, so we're very grateful to you for giving that time. We'll go straight into questions, if that's okay.

You are now in the third year of your role as commissioner. What assessment would you give us of your work in post? Clearly, there are some criticisms that have been made over the past few days. We're aware of some of the challenges that have been facing you. What would your assessment of the position during your third year in office?

Thank you, first of all, for the opportunity to be here with you. We look forward to answering your questions and discussing our work. And yes, being Welsh Language Commissioner is an interesting role. Everybody has a view. People expect you to sometimes work miracles, but, certainly, what I've been trying to do over the last three years is to create an organisation that's hard-working and that looks forward. The last year has been an opportunity for us to implement a number of things that enable us to do that for the next period.

So, you will have seen, hopefully, that we have published a new strategic plan that sets three objectives for the organisation, and three specific themes. They include increasing and improving the services available in Welsh, and ensuring that information about those services are available to people, increasing the opportunities to use the Welsh language more broadly, and leading on the advocacy work by protecting and promoting the interests of Welsh speakers.

During my appointment—I remember being in the Senedd presenting my vision three years ago—I made it very clear, I think, that I wanted to be a commissioner that was supportive to organisations. I wanted people to do the right things in the first instance, rather than relying on complaints only as a means of improving Welsh language services for Welsh speakers. So, we have embedded in the last year this idea of co-regulation by placing more responsibilities on organisations to self-regulate and do the right thing in the first place.

You will also, perhaps, be aware that, because of financial cuts, we have restructured our staffing over the last year, so we've also been putting that in place. But I am confident that we are an effective organisation that is managed well and one that has a clear vision for what we want to do over the next period.

Certainly, developing specific projects aligning with our three themes is going to be a priority. In terms of the Welsh language, we've seen important developments in the last year—the passing of the Welsh Language and Education (Wales) Bill 2025. We've been pleased to contribute towards that work, and we're looking forward to working to ensure that the code to describe is being developed, and that the review of the standards happens effectively.

So, that's a short introduction, perhaps, to what I was hoping to discuss with you today. Thank you for your time and interest.

Thank you very much to you. In terms of what you were saying in terms of co-regulation, to what extent would those changes would have been something that would have been made because of your vision, as you were saying, or because of Government underfunding?

I would say very clearly that it comes from a principled view. Regulation is a multifaceted activity. There are many elements to successful regulation. If we follow best practice by regulators across the world, dealing with complaints is one part, and it is an important part of that, but it is one part. However, it is fair to say—and perhaps we will go into more detail on this later—we are at the moment regulating a little over 140 bodies, or we will be. Over the next period, we will be regulating an additional 40, as housing associations come under our regime. Therefore, we will necessarily be moving, and will have to move, towards more risk-assessed regulation, giving more attention to those bodies that are underperforming. I do not know, Osian, if you'd want to add to that. But we come from a principled viewpoint—the viewpoint of supporting, putting activities in place to support compliance, sharing good practice. But, of course, as our staffing resources remain the same and the number of organisations that we regulate increase—and we want to do that work—we will have to take some decisions to do things using slightly different means. But I am not concerned about that in terms of the outcomes of our regulatory work.

Thank you. Osian, was there anything that you wished to add?

No. I think that Efa has covered everything, perhaps, that I would have said in terms of the model and the joint regulatory approach, so I have nothing to add at the moment. Thank you.

Okay. Thank you for that. In terms of—and I'm sure that this will come up, because, obviously, it has been in the press over the past few days—some of the individuals and organisations that have expressed their concerns and disappointment in terms of the current situation, the concept or the question has been put about whether the role of the commissioner is fit for purpose. What would your response be to that question?

In my view, it is. The Welsh language Measure gives me a broad role. It says that I can do anything to promote and facilitate the use of the Welsh language. It lists a number of things that I can do. It explains how I am supposed to go about regulating. Regulating is an essential part of the role, and I do not foresee that changing at all. That, in a way, is the backbone of the organisation, if you like. But, as well as that backbone, I have teams of staff and departments that are involved in various and different activities that support that work. The fact, in my view, that I can be involved in promotional work as well as regulatory activities is of assistance to us in our regulatory role. Of course, resources can restrict what we can do in practice. But, certainly, I have protected the resource that is associated with our regulatory work in this last period, and I do not expect that to change.

Okay. Thank you for that. Mick wants to come in.

What would you say are the things you haven't been able to do because of financial restrictions that you would have wanted to do, and what is the consequence of not being able to do those?

That is a question that we could talk about at great length, to some extent. I have set three particular themes as priorities—perhaps not for me as an organisation, but for the Welsh language in general—namely areas of activity that I see as being important for the development of the Welsh language in general. I will take the opportunity, perhaps, to name those: the area of health, children and young people, and the workplace. So, in every one of those priority areas, we could be developing a wide-ranging programme of activities to increase the use of the Welsh language in those areas, and get more officers to support us in doing that work as well.

In the absence of that, the approach that I've adopted is to work with other partners in every one of these areas, and that, hopefully, by now, is developing well. So, if we take the workplace as an example, what I would like to see is every workplace in Wales increasing their internal use of the Welsh language. Whilst we have standards related to this particular matter, I want to push it further than the standards. In terms of resource, I have one member of staff developing that work; if I had a team, we could work more intensively with far more organisations. But, at the same time, we're working with the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol, with the National Centre for Learning Welsh, because we're all working in this field. But, if we were to have more resources, of course I feel that we could go further and faster, could support organisations better and could bring more people together to share good practice.

Osian. I'm sorry. Osian wanted—

Just to add to that, I think there's been a lot of activity in terms of the workforce theme. I think it's fair to say that our focus has been on that element of increasing the use of the Welsh language in workforces, whether that's formal use or informal use, and quite a lot of work is continuing on that agenda in the next period.

I think, perhaps, what's become—not clear, because we have been aware of this, but perhaps where there is a need for more attention over the next period is the agenda relating to how we work with organisations to plan bilingual workforces. The standards go some of the way in placing requirements to assess skills and to recruit and to determine language skills in job advertisements, but I also think that we need to have that national conversation and discussion, working in partnership, as Efa mentioned, with the coleg and the National Centre for Learning Welsh, and the Government too, in terms of that agenda of planning bilingual workforces. We hear very often, through the standards, about a lack of capacity. I think we need to work with organisations and challenge them: to what extent are they planning those workforces strategically enough to ensure that people have opportunities to use the language in the workplace, but also that they have the capacity to provide the services that people expect to receive?

Diolch.

Thank you.

Okay, thanks. On that point that Mick raised, perhaps—. Clearly, we're looking towards the draft budget and what would be the implications of an inflation-only budget. What would the impact of that be on your work, please?

Right. So, over the past year, you will know, I'm sure, that we've received a cut of 5 per cent in our budget. Our way of dealing with that was to retain two empty posts. But, over the past year, we also went through a process of restructuring and offered voluntary exit packages and voluntary redundancies to our officers. The result of that was that, by the end of the year, in our last annual report, we had lost four members of staff, or six over that two-year period. That hasn't been without its challenges. So, that was the real-terms impact of not having any additional funding. But what I would say is that we coped with that by restructuring the organisation, we safeguarded those front-line services as far as possible, and we also found savings in our estate, our offices, which released a sum of over £100,000 to us. So, that's the way that we've dealt with that particular matter.

In terms of the coming year's budget, we understand that we will receive an increase of a little over 2 per cent. That will be sufficient, hopefully, for us to deliver cost-of-living increases for our officers, but not much more—well, nothing more, truth be told—when it comes to developing our activities. So, it is very important to me, therefore, that we, as an organisation, are planning carefully. Of course, we are currently in the process of developing our action plan for the year from April onwards. We want to prioritise those things that we perceive as being most important.

The staffing costs of the organisation represent about 83 per cent of expenditure by the organisation, so it's very important for me to consider how we can use that staff resource most effectively, to ensure that we plan our work sensibly, and that we set targets that tie back to the objectives that we've outlined in our strategic plan. But the real-terms impact is the loss of staffing resource, which has meant that we've had to reorganise our work to some extent, and reprioritise as well.

Thank you for that. And finally from me, before we move to questions from other Members, could you give us a little more information, please, on the research that found that Welsh-speaking prisoners in HMP Berwyn are prevented from using the language? They come up against a number of different challenges. Could you talk us through that, please?

So, this is an area of great interest to me personally, as it happens, but the Welsh Language Commissioner, in 2017, published a report on the situation of Welsh speakers in the prison estate. It was a comprehensive report with a large number of recommendations in it. The recommendations related to asking the prison service to gather data on Welsh speakers, to try to locate Welsh speakers in prisons in Wales—that, of course, is impossible for women—to ensure that prisoners could socialise through the medium of Welsh, to ensure that they had opportunities to undertake activities through the medium of Welsh, and to gather data on staff, and so on. The result of that, after the publication of that report, was that the prison service developed a new language scheme. You'll be aware that the prison service comes under the auspices of Welsh language schemes. That's an issue in and of itself, in my view, and, in September of this year, that language scheme was updated.

The research recently published is based on research undertaken between 2018 and 2022. Despite that, I don't know whether the situation continues in prisons. It's very possible that it does. The language scheme that is in place has been agreed with us. If correctly implemented, the situations outlined in that report shouldn't arise. The language scheme outlines sensible things that the prison service should be delivering. Under the language scheme regime, of course, I have no enforcement powers, but what I can do is to undertake an investigation and provide recommendations. As it happens, Osian and I will be meeting managers at HMP Berwyn on Monday afternoon. We're looking forward to that meeting. Clearly, we will be asking them about the evidence base that they have regarding the situation in the prison at present.

Thank you. Gareth has a supplementary question, then Heledd. Gareth first.

I just want to pick up on the prisons matter and say, well, we seem to be making comments to the suggestion that it's some sort of care facility. Yes, it is in some ways, but these people who are in prison have been punished to be in prison because they've broken the law. We've got to be straight about that and not be apologists for people who have actively broken the law. So, why should we be spending finite resources in terms of promoting the Welsh language to people who frankly don't deserve, in some ways, the gift of having some education? We're dealing with high-category prisoners here in HMP Berwyn, which was delivered by a Conservative Government in the 2010s to occupy the overspill that was happening within your old HMP prisons. So, in that regard, would that be a spend that would be justifiable in the public eye, I should say?

Okay. I understand that it's not your role as commissioner to have to justify human rights, but is there something that you want to say in response to that?

Just a response to that, yes.

Yes, just to say that my understanding is that, at the time the decision was made to establish a prison in Berwyn, one of the reasons was to ensure that prisoners from Wales who speak Welsh received services, in my view, as they should, through the medium of Welsh.

Okay, thank you for that. It's on that point that I think Mick wanted to come in, and then I'll come to Heledd on a slightly different point.

On the same point.

On the same point.

In terms of the prison.

Yes, but I think Mick wanted to respond to what's been raised.

Just to make this point. I remember visiting Berwyn as Counsel General a few years back, and the presentation was very much a positive one, in terms of how they told us about the language. I suppose the concern is that what is being described is actually hostility. Hostility is something different, because that begins to go into a whole other area that is of concern. So, I'm not quite sure how that might fit in, other than that the information that would be available might lead to other actions needing to be looked at.

There are some things that have been highlighted in the recently published research, for example, that some people have been prevented from speaking Welsh with each other. The Welsh language Measure provides me with powers to look into that if that happens. People have the right to speak Welsh with each other. I have powers to investigate if people are of the view that that isn't happening. And I can do that on behalf of prisoners, as well as anyone else. So, that would be my position on that matter.

Okay, thank you. I'll bring Heledd in.

Thank you. If I may ask, specifically—? You say that you have the right to investigate. Do you believe at the moment that there is a scope for you now to be investigating? And may I ask: in terms of the point regarding standards and the prison and probation service, have there been discussions as a result of what we've seen recently, with Welsh Government, in terms of accelerating the pace of that work, or is that something that you would want to look at, should there be an investigation or not? Just to understand the status. You say that you've got the right, but I'm not clear whether you will be investigating.

The situation is that we're meeting with them on Monday. Depending on the evidence that we receive and wish to collect, that's when we will make a decision regarding investigating or not. I need to come to my own conclusions about that. Whilst accepting that this report is available, I need to give them an opportunity to provide me with information, and then we'll consider that.

In terms of their status coming under the Welsh language standards, that would give me much stronger powers. You will be aware, perhaps, that in our manifesto call to parties for the next election period, we have noted clearly that we would want the Welsh language standards to be extended to Crown departments and non-ministerial departments, and then, certainly, I'd have enforcement powers. I have the power to recommend, but, at the end of the day, the powers under the Welsh language Measure—and, of course, that was the whole purpose of the Welsh language Measure—are much stronger than the powers under the previous Act.

Thank you very much for that. Thank you, Chair.

Thank you. We will—. Osian, did you want to come in? No. Okay. We'll move on to Alun.

Yes, I want to go back to the office, and how you manage the office, because I do think it's a matter of public interest. You have explained already that 83 per cent, you said, of your budget goes towards staffing costs. I take it that you have faced the same impact as others when it comes to national insurance, for example. So, could you explain to us how that has had an impact on your ability to undertake other activities in the office?

Welsh Government has reimbursed us with regard to the increase in national insurance contributions. What's affected us most is that baseline cut of 5 per cent in funding in the first place.

Okay.

I would say—

So, sorry, just to confirm, they reimbursed you for everything.

For the increase in national insurance.

As a whole.

Yes.

Okay. Sorry, carry on.

But, clearly, I have six fewer people to do my work. There's no way of avoiding that that affects, ultimately, the speed with which I do things. Some savings have been made in support services, and I would argue that it is right to do so and timely, but I don't want to see further erosion in terms of our officials who work on a day-to-day basis with the organisations that we regulate, the organisations we work with. As you know, we do conduct work in the private sector and with charities. We also have a function in relation to place names and a role in that process. So, the scope of our activities is quite broad. I wouldn't want to see a further reduction in the number of people—excellent people—that I have supporting me.

But you have seen a decrease already.

Ydyn.

So, can you give us an example of what kind of impact that has had on the office?

In terms of the regulatory work, I think that it's important to underline that our regulatory work hasn't continued on the basis of the status quo. Those responsibilities have grown over the past few years. We welcome that, of course, because we believe that expanding the standards to other sectors and organisations is the right thing to do; we've just discussed prisons, for example.

One of the things that we have done over the past period is to look again at our work of monitoring and promoting compliance. Efa spoke about moving increasingly to a risk-based model. So, all of the bodies that we regulate—there are almost 140 of them—have a risk category associated with them, and our activities vary according to where they are on that risk category. We want to ensure that the resources we have go to the right place, where we can have the greatest impact—if organisations demonstrate that they are complying to a great degree, then our activities, by necessity, will have to be less intensive—and that we focus our resources in the areas and sectors where, perhaps, there is a need for urgent improvement.

So, one of the practical methods that we've applied over the past few years is to roll out a system of self-assessment. That provides a baseline for us and gives us a picture or an overview of where the organisations currently are. And, obviously, we'll respond to that and adapt our monitoring approach according to the organisations' and sector responses. So, I hope that that's one practical example.

Okay. That sounds sensible, the fact that you're moving to a form of regulation that's better, in a way, in regulating according to risk and not, perhaps, in the way that has happened in the past. So, I'm satisfied with that. But what sort of impact have the redundancies had on the office and the staff that you still have?

Well, I hope that we're in a period now with a structure—. We combined the loss of officials with restructuring, so the roles changed at the same time as that process happened. So, in terms of the impact on the remaining staff members, if that's your question, I'm confident that our officers have the job descriptions and specific functions and we have work plans in place that are appropriate to the number of staff that we have, as outlined in our executive plan. So, we have three teams within the organisation: the regulatory directorate, the strategic directorate and the central services and governance directorate. So, the activities of those teams are based on the number of staff that we currently have. It's true to say that we've lost some expertise as we lost some officers who had been with us, and there's no way of avoiding that. But I very much hope that we are looking forward with confidence to a new period. As it happens, I'll be bringing all of the organisation's staff together tomorrow in Aberystwyth. I look forward to that. It'll be an opportunity for us to plan and to look ahead. So, we are a team that works across Wales, and I hope that everyone in the organisation is clear about what we want to do and can do with the resource that we have. Of course, we'd like to have more, that stands to reason, but we're doing the best with what we have.

Digon teg. Ocê. A pha fath o impact—? Un o'r pethau dwi'n ymwybodol ohono fe yw'r defnydd o wasanaethau sy'n cael eu cynnig trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, ac un o amcanion y strategaeth 'Cymraeg 2050' yw cynyddu defnydd o'r Gymraeg a'r defnydd o wasanaethau rydych chi'n eu rheoleiddio trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Pa fath o impact y mae'r mathau yma o doriadau ar y gyllideb yn ei chael ar eich gallu i hyrwyddo defnydd?

Well, that's an interesting question, because I would argue that we've used the introduction of the new regulatory approach, and the introduction of the new structure, in a way that's released more resource to do that promotional work. So, you will see in our annual report, for example, that we've drawn organisations together to undertake pilot projects to promote the use of the Welsh language. Would they have done that on their own? Probably not, but we established a project, we gathered 10 bodies together. There is evidence in the annual report of the increase in the use of the services as a result of those projects. So, we have good practice to share with other bodies as a result. So, perhaps that's an example of the proactive way that we want to promote the use of the Welsh language.

You will know that promotion of the use of the Welsh language is a priority for me. It's all well and good to have the services in place, but I am sometimes criticised for being eager for people to use those services, but, of course, that's the purpose. The 'Cymraeg 2050' strategy sets out the ambition for us to double the daily use of the Welsh language. Well, how can I contribute to that? I would argue that I can contribute to that by ensuring that the services that are regulated by us are used: that we see the impact of the standards in the area of health and care; that we see the impact on students in universities; that, when people think about engaging with their local councils, they use the Welsh language services; when you phone to speak about your tax bill or about your driving licence, that you do that through the medium of Welsh. You can do that, but not everyone knows that those services are available.

Would I like to have a larger budget to do that promotional work? The answer is, of course, yes, I would, but I want to use the resources that I currently have in the most sensible way, and the best way that I feel that I can do that is to work with the organisations that are regulated by me, and we see that bearing fruit.

Perhaps, if I could just add to that, apologies. Clearly, we have an annual campaign. That will start later this month—the 'Defnyddia dy Gymraeg', use your Welsh, campaign. We'll be holding a conference in Wrexham at the beginning of next week—again, an opportunity to bring organisations together to recognise best practice, as well as those practices that our organisations put in place to promote services.

One of the things that we reflected on last year was that we also had a role to facilitate that work in terms of promoting Welsh language services that organisations have put in place. We are in the process of developing the page. We hope that the page will be live on our website, working with organisations and asking them: what are the main Welsh services that you want us, as the Welsh Language Commissioner, to promote? Those details will then appear on our website, and I'm sure that there will be a programme of raising awareness regarding those services to follow once that page is live. So, we do have a role, and we are taking practical steps ourselves in that regard.

Diolch. Dwi'n fodlon gyda hynny.

Okay, thank you. We'll move to Lee.

Diolch. Five years ago, before you were commissioner, your office was subject to a very serious cyber attack, a ransom attack, for which the Information Commissioner's Office reprimanded the office. How confident are you that that couldn't happen again, and what lessons have you learned that you've shared with other commissioning bodies?

So, you're right. What I would say is that, when I joined the organisation three years ago, the impacts of that attack were still being felt, and really, in some ways, they're still being felt. What I've been very keen to ensure, since I arrived, is that we have a programme that responded to all the recommendations the organisation received as a result of that attack. We also had recommendations from internal auditors. By now, what we have, certainly, in place, is that I can say that we have gone through the work of implementing all those recommendations. We have cyber-essentials IASME 1 and IASME 2 certificates. We now have all the correct policies in place.

In terms of the organisation's risk register, that's the highest risk that we consider, and I don't see that going away, to be honest, because I don't think that anyone should think that they're too small, too irrelevant, to not have a cyber attack, and I think it is a general threat to the public sector and to everybody else.

So, in terms of what we're doing, as I said, we have these certificates in place that provide us with assurance. We have recently had another internal audit on our cyber robustness, and there were some recommendations, but I would argue that they're very small recommendations in terms of perhaps updating a few policies. We have a staff training programme, and it's important that we have a no-blame culture in terms of staff and reporting of incidents. We have vulnerability practice programmes. We have e-mails that go out to staff twice or three times a year to test their response to potential attacks.

In terms of sharing good practice, we have been attending training days that the Welsh Government cyber security department have been holding, and we have been undertaking scenario exercises in terms of how to act in the case of another attack. And just to share information, only last week I was filmed for a programme or a video that the Welsh Government will be releasing in terms of how to deal with a cyber attack and how to ensure that the organisation is robust in terms of an attack. I don't think anybody here can sit and say with 100 per cent assurance that it won't happen, but certainly I have given importance and a priority to this work of making sure that we have prepared as much as we can to deal with such an attack. I'm happy to say a little bit more, but—

No, thank you. That's a thorough answer. Diolch yn fawr. In terms of digital skills more broadly, clearly it's a challenge for organisations of your size to have all the skills that you need, but clearly they are lacking, and you're not unique in this. You've had some real problems with the case management system, which I guess is as much about procuring and about the ability of the private sector to be able to develop a product that meets your needs. Can I just check: is the system now up and running and functional yet?

Okay. If I take a step back, clearly the committee will be aware of the history you've outlined there, perhaps the challenges that we faced with the provider that we had commissioned and procured to develop this system on our behalf. I'm pleased to be able to say that we've been able to reopen discussions with that company. There have been structural and constitutional changes within that business, and the development work has been under way during this financial year. The work is to be completed by the middle of March, and our intention is that that system will be operational at the beginning of the next financial year.

What I would emphasise, perhaps, is that the work of redeveloping the system, they've started that work anew to all intents and purposes, but all of that work is within the original budget, so there are no additional costs on top of what we've already spent in redeveloping the system over the last nine months. The relationship between us and the provider is a healthy one. Officers meet with officers at the company on a daily basis. They're brief meetings, but clearly they're very important, worthwhile meetings to ensure that we make progress in accordance with the plan. The intention is that the system will be operational from April onwards, and we're confident that the system won't just facilitate our work of dealing with complaints, monitoring enforcement actions and holding investigations, but also will ensure that we operate as effectively and efficiently as possible and take full advantage of technology in that regard.

So, it was due to be introduced in October 2022, but it's still not in place. You're hoping that it'll be in place for the spring, but you can't be certain.

We are relatively confident at the moment. We're in November now, and where we planned to be by November, that's where we currently are. There is staff training work to be undertaken at the beginning of the calendar year, and that's to ensure that we're in a good position to put that system in place at the beginning of the next financial year.

And in terms of the parallel—. The commissioner mentioned the point on cyber, that there had been system support from the Welsh Government and sharing of knowledge. I guess, part of the challenge is that you've decided to create a bespoke software system just for your organisation, which is always where the pain begins. Have the other parts of the Welsh public service ecosystem been able to support you in giving you the skills in how to spec out a procurement and to be a sort of expert or an informed customer, or do you feel like you've been trying to do this yourselves?

Clearly, I can't speak with regard to the original purchasing work. What I would say is that when we discovered that the system didn't meet our demand, I had wise advice from Welsh Government that enabled us to do the renegotiation with the company and forced them to rebuild the system from the beginning. We have a relationship with—I always forget the acronym, and Osian will laugh at me—CDPS—

Yes, the Centre for Digital Public Services.

Therefore, we are involved with them. They, of course, are interested in our work as well. So, I think we'll know who to approach for support now, but I think, in general, we can't have too much support or assistance in terms of digital development.

It would be no surprise to you, perhaps, to hear that we are interested in seeing how we can use artificial intelligence in the future. We are experimenting on a small level with that at the moment, but, again, that is an area where we would appreciate having advice and guidance.

Perhaps one thing that I would add is that one of the things we've considered is how we can maximise the use of technology more broadly to facilitate that broader regulatory work, beyond complaints and investigations. We've started having conversations with other regulators in Wales to see how they use resources such as Power BI and so on to be able to analyse statistics, analyse data, to identify trends, again with a view to facilitate our monitoring work. So, there are a great many conversations happening with public organisations and those other organisations that Efa referred to.

And how confident are you that, if you were to start from scratch today, you'd be in a better position because of that support to commission a system that was not likely to befall the problems you've had?

I think my main view is that I recognise that it's difficult for an organisation like ourselves to have all the skills internally, and that we would need to rely on external advice, perhaps, to manage such a project. So, there are many steps where, if we were to start from the beginning, we would appreciate having support and advice.

Is that advice and support there?

It's very difficult for me to answer that. I would know where to go and ask.

Okay. I just want to finally ask about your accommodation arrangements. We've heard from Cymdeithas yr Iaith that they see it's a problem that you're sharing offices with the Welsh Government. I don't share that view. You have made changes and there have been knock-on cost consequences to that, but your costs are still higher than you anticipated. Can I be clear how many offices you currently have and what your plans are for them?

I don't believe that our costs are higher; we've made greater savings than we expected. That's my understanding of the matter.

Apologies, I misread that. You're correct, yes.

No, that's completely fine. Our situation is that our main office is in Caernarfon. Around half of our staff work in that Caernarfon office. We have a hot-desking area on floor 4 in Cathays Park 2, where we share a space with other organisations from the public sector. Around eight staff use that resource, and the remainder of our staff are home workers. As we've undertaken that rationalisation, we don't currently have plans to go further at the moment. Of course, we work on a hybrid basis, like the majority of the public sector, but I am certainly of the view that it's beneficial for us to have a space where staff can come together.

So, we've concluded that exercise. We have no intention to look at that again at the moment. I don't remember the specific dates, but the lease for the office in Caernarfon will come up in a few years' time, so it'll be timely to consider whether that is still fit for purpose for us at that time. At the moment, I would say that it is, because, as I said, around 18 of our staff use that resource on a regular basis.

Is there a requirement for them to be in the office for a certain number of weeks?

Our policy is that we have anchor days, on one specific day, where we—. We don't require, but we ask our officers to come in together on one day a week, and then on another day of their choice. So, that's the ideal that we currently have. It appears to be working effectively. Naturally, it stands to reason that some officers are in the office far more often than that, but that's the minimum that we've asked for our officers to do, and on the whole it appears to be working at the moment.

And from a staff welfare point of view, are you able to measure and are you satisfied that people feel that that is sufficient for their well-being?

It's difficult for me to answer that fully. What I would say is that we do conduct staff surveys that have good, or good enough results, in my view. My feeling at the moment is that that balance is right. It gives an element of trust to staff to decide what days they want to come in to the office and meet with their teams, perhaps. I feel that bringing everybody together—. Of course, we have home workers where it's not so easy for them to do so, but we also encourage them to come together in their areas. I know that staff in north-west Wales meet every now and again to hot-desk together, and it's the same for staff in Aberystwyth. And days to bring staff together, like the one we're holding tomorrow, are very important. So, perhaps I'm a bit old-fashioned, but I do believe in the energy and the creativity that come from bringing people together to learn, to share ideas, to support each other, and I agree with the view that it's important in terms of officials' well-being.

Okay, thank you.

Thank you. We'll move on to Heledd.

Thank you. If I could just follow up briefly, just in terms of Cardiff specifically and that location, clearly there were concerns that were raised at the time related to what the impact of that would be in terms of independence or the perception of independence. That's something that you recognised and acknowledged yourself as a risk. How do you keep that under review, to ensure, even if it isn't a risk, that that perception isn't there and that you are sure that it isn't having that negative impact?

I accept that the perception might be in place. However, I would welcome anyone to come to our office to see the way we work there. We work on the fourth floor, so there is no official from Welsh Government on that floor. We use the lift in the morning to get to the fourth floor, and, of course, Welsh Government officials aren't in the office either, which is a different matter—don't quote me on that.

Well, it's on the record. [Laughter.]

But the reality is that—

It's too late now. [Laughter.]

The reality is that we are in a space that I think is beneficial to us. We're right next door to the Democracy and Boundary Commission Cymru, so we can discuss with them. Natural Resources Wales is around the corner. They also regulate Welsh Government. The Food Standards Agency is there. So, naturally, we do bump into some of those officials, and I feel that talking to other people in the public sector is a good thing and doesn't in any way affect my independence.

I hope that you can see, through my statements and my decisions, that the fact that I am located in the same building as Welsh Government officials—and that's mainly for practical and financial reasons—doesn't have an impact on the decisions and the statements I make. And I would like to repeat the invitation for anyone to come to our office to see where we work and to realise—. I'm not sure what—. That is, I understand why the perception has arisen, but I can't be more firm in my view that there is no basis to that perception.

Thank you for that. If I can move on to complaints and compliance, a controversial issue in the media today—this is an opportunity, of course, for you to respond to some of the challenges raised by Cymdeithas yr Iaith too, and some others who have expressed a view this morning in that regard. Is it something that we should be concerned about, that it appears now that the majority of the complaints received are dealt with outwith the system outlined in the Measure?

What I would start with, in my answer, is to note that that work of dealing with complaints, and holding investigations where there is a need to, continues to be a central part of our regulatory work. What I would say is that regulation is a multifaceted function. Regulation doesn't mean enforcement on its own and that nothing else relates to the work. So, I think sometimes there is an element of confusion with regard to what is considered regulation, accepting that regulators have enforcement powers, and having enforcement powers as a regulator is an important tool to have in those situations where a regulator feels that they don't have the certainty or confidence that an organisation where failures are happening is taking steps to remedy those failures. That is where holding investigations and placing enforcement steps at the end of a process pays off.

There have been some comments in the last few days regarding statistics, and a reference to a reduction in the number of complaints that we receive. I would argue that that perhaps, to some extent, is beyond our direct control. In terms of the reduction in the number of investigations, we acknowledge that in our annual report. The number of investigations that we have opened this year—or during 2024-25, rather—has been a reduction on previous years. What I would say is that, if you look at other statistics, on how many enforcement determinations were made in 2023-24, they're significantly higher than the statistics in 2021-22. So, it's a mixed picture, and there are different trends, and I would be wary of coming to simple conclusions in looking at bare statistics on their own.

In the annual report, we have tried to provide some element of commentary to explain some of the factors that have influenced those statistics. We have also given a bit more context in the annual report this year, or the rationale behind not deciding to investigate in some cases. And I think that is useful, because it provides a clearer picture to you as a committee and the public about why we have made those decisions.

If we look, perhaps, at some of the statistics, of the 60 complaints that we decided not to investigate further, 18 of those—nearly a third of them—were because there was no suspicion of failure in terms of the organisation. Now, the Welsh Language (Wales) Measure 2011 is completely clear that only when there is suspicion of failure can the commissioner hold an investigation. So, a third of those you can put aside, to all intents and purposes.

There is a significant number of complaints, then, where we have evidence that the organisation either has remedied the failure and solved whatever that failure is—. We receive complaints, perhaps, that draw attention to a sign that's deficient in terms of the Welsh language, or material that is publicly exhibited and deals with Welsh less favourably than English. Those are issues that can be solved quite easily and in a timely way, where an organisation comes back to us at the beginning of a complaints process and says, 'We take responsibility and we can confirm that that failure has been remedied.' We have also had a commitment from organisations that they are taking steps to remedy any failures, and then we monitor those steps as part of our day-to-day work. So, a relatively high number of those 60 fall into those two categories.

Thank you for that. May I ask—? Clearly, what you are saying in terms of the number of complaints that you have received, that is not within your control. But how would you assess the fact that there has been a decrease in terms of—? We have already discussed how challenging it has been in terms of your budget and funding to promote every part of your work. Explaining people's rights—. Perhaps there was more attention on that, on occasion, which is reflected, perhaps, when you see more complaints. Is the situation improving, or do you still see—? We have mentioned in the past, in scrutinising you, that there are repeat offenders—councils that come up time and time again; they're the same ones that you have to investigate, and so on. Do you see that there is a shift in that regard? I am just trying to understand—. For everyone here in Wales, what they would want to see is: since having the commissioner and having these powers, are things improving, or are people fed up of complaining because the same things happen time and time again, and we are not seeing that shift happening adequately?

Okay. I will start, and I will then bring Efa in. I think that there is a focus, isn't there, in discussing the regulatory work of the commissioner, on those statistics that relate to the number of complaints, the number of statutory investigations, and the number of enforcement actions. Perhaps what is missed sometimes is the robust evidence that we have, as a regulator, in terms of organisations' performance.

We have historically published an annual report that provides an overview of the current situation in terms of performance, sector by sector. What the report that we published in July—perhaps a little bit later than the period of the annual report that we are looking at—shows is that there has been an increase, year after year, in relation to the nine main activities in service provision where there is a requirement for organisations to comply. That increase has happened year on year.

We have been looking at the statistics from 2021-22 until 2024-25—the same period as some would argue in which the complaints trend has declined. There is no doubt that there is a relation between increased compliance and, perhaps, a decreasing number of complaints. We would expect and hope that complaints reduce if performance is improving.

I am not going to claim that the situation is perfect, and failures are still happening. As I say, when those failures become obvious to us, and we do not have that assurance and confidence, then investigating and using enforcement steps are appropriate steps to take.

The only thing that I would want to add is that I would take this opportunity to encourage anybody who feels that they have not received the services that they should to contact us. Very soon, we will be introducing a better way, on our website, for people to submit complaints, to make it easier for people to do just that.

The matter of complaints and investigations is a very comprehensive process, and we would want to facilitate the situation for anybody who wants to submit a complaint. We will be looking at every single complaint. I am not sure of the date, but very soon, we will have a new section on the website with the aim of making it easier for people to contact us.

If you could let us know when that happens, we would be grateful. Thank you.

Yes. Thank you. I don't want to go into specific examples here, but, clearly, one of the examples that's been highlighted by Cymdeithas yr Iaith is swimming lessons in Wrexham. Of course, that has been subject to an investigation in the past and, from what I understand, it continues to be deficient. So, the right itself, and being clear about what people's rights are, is something that comes up time after time.

And I would tie that back to the work that Osian mentioned at the beginning, namely that we want to highlight what is available and what people should expect. That is a responsibility on the organisations as well. So, yes, there is a circle of responsibility here, isn't there?

Yes, certainly. If I could turn to the Welsh language standards, in your manifesto, you call on the next Welsh Government to include key sectors that are currently not named in the Measure. So, may I ask you for an overview of what sectors those are specifically?

Right. Excellent. I hope, first of all, that the call in our manifesto is clear. I think that there was some confusion with regard to how clear we have been in that regard. The standards have transformed the range and nature of the Welsh language services available, there's no doubt about that. What we have experienced over recent years is a decrease. Where we've seen an increase in compliance when it comes to standards, we've seen a decrease, and there is a consistent tendency in terms of the compliance with duties under the Act.

A number of important bodies that provide important public services to citizens in Wales continue to come under the language schemes regime, and what we've asked for is the extension of the standards to those bodies and sectors, including ministerial departments. I'm thinking specifically about departments such as the Department for Work and Pensions, and the Cabinet Office, which is responsible for the gov.uk website, which, again, is a central point for consumers and website users. In that particular case, we would need the consent of the Secretary of State to enable Welsh Ministers to bring forward regulations relating to those particular bodies.

We're also eager to extend the standards to non-ministerial departments, such as the prison service, which we touched on earlier, HM Revenue and Customs, and the DVLA. These departments provide services that we all use on a daily basis. There is significant work to be done. The consent process is one that hasn't been followed yet, so that's an issue for the next Welsh Government, I would sense. But, certainly, that is a priority for us.

We've also, in the manifesto, asked the next Welsh Government to publish a programme, as part of the legislative programme, I suppose, for the introduction of regulations for those other sectors that remain within the Welsh language Measure provisions, as they currently stand. Those primarily relate to the private sector and the utilities, and so on. So, I think that our calls and our aspirations in terms of extending the standards are clear in that regard.

Thank you. Clearly, you make the connection in the manifesto between the need and resources as well. Could I just ask specifically about the extent to which you agree with the approach of the Cabinet Secretary in terms of the introduction of Welsh language duties on public transport providers, and what work are you doing to prepare for this?

I think it's important to note that one of the biggest public transport providers in Wales is subject to standards because of the relationship between Transport for Wales and the Welsh Government. And so, Transport for Wales is already subject to our regulatory framework, and you will be aware, perhaps, of the complaints and the issues that have arisen with that body. So, they're already subject to the standards. Our understanding is that, if and when regulations come in for public transport providers, the relationship between Transport for Wales and the Government will be separated, and we will need to regulate that body independently. There will be specific duties placed on them, as well as on other public transport providers.

I think the challenge for Government in introducing new regulations is to ensure that, as regards the requirements on Transport for Wales currently, that there is not a reduction. So, we need to be alive to that as regulations are developed. I am aware that there are developments in Westminster in terms of introducing the Great British Railways Bill. I am not familiar with all the detail, but, obviously, that is part of the picture in terms of the way public transport is structured here in Wales. So, the work on developing regulations will need to reflect that, I would presume.

Thank you. Mick and Gareth have supplementaries, so I'll go to Mick first and then Gareth.

Just in terms of those extended responsibilities, in the light of what you said earlier about resources, do you actually have the resources to do that, or is the ability to do that dependent on additional resources being provided?

That in a way, is a difficult question for me to answer, because of course I want to regulate these sectors and I will find a way of doing that. However, we could do that better with more resource. That, perhaps, is the stance I would take. I explained earlier how we are moving towards a model of regulation according to risk. Well, the more organisations that you have, the less that you’ll be able to be engaged with the problems lower down the register. To be wholly effective regulators, we need greater resource. However, I am very eager to extend the Welsh language standards, and so we will be seeking ways to do that.

Perhaps one additional point I would make is that we are starting to reach a period now, in considering the Welsh language standards and the organisations that will be subject to them—organisations, perhaps, that have not been operating according to language duties, under languages schemes or otherwise—where, I would argue, thinking of housing associations, perhaps, as the most prominent sector, there will have to be some hand-holding, more so perhaps than there has been in the past, in terms of local authorities, universities and further education colleges, which are familiar with implementing Welsh language schemes. Of course, that is going to mean investment in terms of resource. As Efa has said, we will make it work, but, obviously, we would welcome resources.

I'd like to expand on that, in a way, because it comes back to the heart of what we discussed at the beginning of this session. In the context of housing associations, which, as Osian mentioned, don’t have a system in every aspect of the language schemes, we have undertaken a preparatory programme for the sector in line with our method of co-regulating and supporting, in the hope that they receive advice and support before the period that the standards are imposed on them, in order to avoid problems and to make that regulatory work easier in due course. So, there are several techniques being applied to develop our regulatory work more effectively, and I would argue that the work that we have done with housing associations over the past year, before the introduction of the standards for them, is an example of that.

Okay. Thank you. Our time is quite tight, but we are keen to hear the questions from Gareth.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. Bore da, pawb. I'd just like to focus on the Welsh language within the health system, across the health boards, and analyse any potential regional differences within the health board authorities and how that’s directed. Obviously, we had 'More than just words' back in 2012. How is that going, and are we moving in the right direction generally?

If time is brief, I'll ask Osian to respond.

Fine,. You will be aware that health boards and trusts have been subject to standards since 2019. We have made it completely clear in a number of reports that the performance of the health sector has been lower than that of other sectors, and that there’s a need to move urgently to ensure progress and that they reach similar levels to those reached by other sectors. There has been progress, but again I emphasise that there is quite a way to go in the health sector. So, that is an overview of the situation in terms of the statutory duties within our framework—

So, what would be an acceptable level in regard to your work and what you would expect health boards to achieve? What would be a reasonable level in that sense?

As a regulator, our expectation is that they comply with the duties, come what may. That is, I'm not going to put a figure on it. What I'm suggesting here is that, in our monitoring work, we can see that the levels in the other sectors are much higher in terms of compliance. So, the priority for us—of course, we want to get to that 100 per cent compliance level, because that's what we're working towards—but the priority in terms of the sector is to try and get them towards the levels that we see in the other sectors that are performing best.

I mentioned the statutory duties, and, of course, those are within our direct regulatory framework. Significant work has been ongoing during the last year on our part. This is associated with the 'More than just words' plan that you referred to there. 'More than just words' is a five-year plan that will come to the end of its life in 2027. The aim of 'More than just words' is to ensure that the Welsh language is embedded into health and care services, which, I would argue, are those clinical services and primary care services that we are involved with in the health service. The duties under standards do not relate to that directly. One of the main tools that we have is the requirement on the sector to have five-year plans to increase capacity to hold clinical consultations through the medium of Welsh.

And where do you think it's going wrong, in some senses? I did 11 years in the health service, and in the early days it was always mandatory training, the Welsh language, and then incorporated in latter years to the electronic staff record, ESR, which is designed to promote as much compliance as possible with an aim to 100 per cent, sort of thing. Where are those systems going wrong within a digitalised sense, if that seemed to be making progress in those regards? And what's holding those health boards back in terms of achieving those things, given that we've made good inroads, basically, to where we need to be?

I think that we mentioned earlier, didn't we, the bilingual workforce planning, and that is what is at the heart of the five-year plans. I think that what we've seen over the past period is that the degree to which the sector—and I'm speaking in general terms here—that the degree to which the sector is planning the workforce with a view to ensuring that there is capacity in those priority areas that 'More than just words' is engaged with, that, perhaps—how can I put it? There is further work to be done to ensure that those workforce plans are undertaken in a far more purposeful, deliberate, strategic—

What work, though? What would be your recommendation to a health board? I'm not naming anyone specifically, but what would be a piece of advice or direction that you would give, if you can or could, to a health board to say, 'This is where you need to be, and this is how you get there?'

I think that setting a baseline and understanding what the current capacity is in terms of the workforce's language skills is an initial step. It's one thing to set a target and where one wants to be in five years' time—and there's an expectation that the health boards will do that—but without knowing where you're starting from, it's difficult to measure the degree to which progress and planning are needed to do that. So, I think the initial advice and what needs to happen in the short term is that every one of the health boards and trusts has a better understanding and a comprehensive understanding of the current capacity that they have when it comes to language skills in the workforce. I don't know if you want to add anything.

There's a long way to go. I do feel that we have been able to move the health boards forward over the last year with the work that they need to do under the 110 standard, but there is further work to do. This is why I have named the health area as one of my priorities; it's such an important field for people who are vulnerable. There are complex systems, there are a number of bodies involved with these matters, and my intention is to contribute constructively to those discussions.

I think that one of the final points I would make is that, obviously, our work primarily relates to those statutory duties. 'More than just words' tries to tackle the clinical services. Over the past year, we've established a strategic forum alongside the 'More than just words' team within the Government, and that work—. The purpose of the forum is, yes, to support the sector, but also to challenge the sector. We want to see, as part of that workforce planning, recruitment practices evolving and adapting over the next period. So, the work of collaboration is under way with our partners, with Health Education and Improvement Wales, Digital Health and Care Wales, the National Centre for Learning Welsh; there are many organisations that have a contribution to make on this agenda.

Perhaps I'll just refer to a specific practical example: last year, we published a briefing paper on where we were in terms of work on supporting people who have dementia and are Welsh speakers. As a result of those recommendations, Welsh Government has re-established a committee specifically to look at this. Currently, we're chairing that committee. So, that, perhaps, is a practical example of where I hope we can add value and apply pressure when required.

And would there be—? Sorry, if we've got time, would there be any specific recommendation that you would make to Welsh Government in terms of how that can be strategically led, through health boards? I mean, I'm a bit biased in some ways, because I'm a north Wales Member, but given that Betsi Cadwaladr is in special measures, under direct Welsh Government control, would that be something that you could, perhaps, look at with Welsh Government, to say, 'Look, there are inroads that we can make here, and progress that can be had'? Because you've got a big health board, basically, in Betsi Cadwaladr, which spans across north Wales, but they're in three compartments, as a caveat to that. Because you've got north-west Wales, which, obviously, has a high density of Welsh language speakers; central, a little bit of both; and then the north-east, less Welsh language. So, in that sense, what scope could you have to look at some recommendations with Welsh Government, to say, 'Look, how can we spread the butter a bit more widely'?

So, across the Betsi Cadwaladr area, the standards are the same, and Welsh speakers have the same rights wherever they live in that health board area. What we have in place are regular meetings with Welsh Government officials to share our recommendations. We are making regular presentations to meetings of chief executives of the health boards, and we take those opportunities to report back on their performance and to recommend actions. As Osian explained, there is some way to go, but in the meantime, we will continue to offer our comments and our recommendations.

You mentioned recommendations to Welsh Government, perhaps our manifesto calls for the Senedd elections and for the next Welsh Government are a good starting point. We do have a manifesto call specifically relating to the health sector. Certainly, I think that we are of the view that there's a need for central investment in order to ensure that there are more intense efforts in those priority areas that 'More than just words' identifies.

Thank you very much. We have run out of time, unfortunately, but thank you for taking us through that particular issue. Thank you very much to both of you for your evidence this morning. We've covered a number of different areas. There are some questions that we didn't have time to cover—we'll write to you with those, if that's okay. A transcript of what has been said will be sent to you for you to check it for accuracy as well, but thank you very much to both of you for joining us this morning, and almost into the afternoon as well. Thank you very much.

Thank you.

Diolch i chi.

Thanks. As we say farewell to our witnesses—and, again, thank you—Members, we'll move straight on. Thank you once again for the evidence.

We'll move on to item 4, which is papers to note. Does anyone have anything that they want to say on the record? I'll go to Heledd.

I would like to put on the record, under 4.6, the response that we've received from the Minister specifically, and, if I may, in terms of the maintenance backlog. This was something that we scrutinised significantly. Welsh Government has no figure regarding what the maintenance backlog is across these sectors. The impression we got as we did the scrutiny was that that figure did exist, but this confirms that they don't have a figure. So, how on earth can Welsh Government address these challenges, if they don't know the size of the problem?

I would really like to understand from Welsh Government why the impression was given that this existed, and now we have confirmation that there is no such figure. I don't have the assurance in getting this response that our national collections are safe within these organisations, in that we know what the need is to keep them safe, or what the need is across Wales. We've seen a significant investment of millions of pounds going into these sectors, but how we are supposed to have faith as a committee that that is going to the areas where there's a real need for that investment, if Welsh Government doesn't have the figure?

Well, certainly that's something that we can raise with the Government. Alun.

Well, the budget is coming up, so that's an opportunity to raise this.

Yes, but I think that having it in black and white is something that we should pay attention to.

Yes, I agree. But we have another opportunity to scrutinise the Government when the budget is before us.

And that's on the record now too. Is there anything else that Members want to place on the record? I don't see that there is. So, are you content to note the papers? I see that Members are.

I move on to item 5, and I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(ix) that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the rest of this meeting. Are Members content for us to do so?

Content.

Content. Thank you.

Okay. Thank you for saying so too. We'll wait to hear that we're in private.