Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee

Thank you very much, Chair. I'm Mark Drakeford, the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language, and joining me today I have Elin Burns, who can explain her own role.

I'm Elin Burns, director of culture, heritage, sport and Welsh Language.

And I know that you'll all be familiar with Jeremy, because he's appeared before the committee before. So, Jeremy.

Thank you. Jeremy Evas, 'Cymraeg 2050' division, Welsh Government.

A warm welcome to the three of you, and thank you for your time. We'll go straight to questions, if that's okay.

A subject that arises often with this committee, when we look at the Welsh language, is the fact that the Welsh language doesn't—it isn't just one department within the Government that deals with the Welsh language. To what extent could you tell us that the Welsh language and 'Cymraeg 2050' are embedded across other departments, and how can you monitor that?

Thank you very much, Chair. Well, the Welsh language belongs to us all, and responsibility for the Welsh language is something that is pertinent to all Cabinet members. At the moment, I'm leading on the Welsh language, but I am reliant on the work that everyone else does to help us to promote the language, and to assist us in achieving our ambitions in relation to the language. I'm sure that I can think of examples across the Cabinet where people are doing things that are relevant to the Welsh language. For example, Helo Blod, which is an important service in business—Rebecca Evans is responsible for that particular service. And on 'More than just words', Jeremy Miles takes the lead. And I discuss the Welsh language communities housing plan with Jayne Bryant, because there's a great deal of work that we're doing there where she leads, but I also have a great interest because there are many things pertinent to 'Cymraeg 2050' that will rely on how we can strengthen the Welsh language in its heartlands.

In the same area, we've made some fundamental changes in planning, and Julie James at the time led when we were doing that work. I speak to Dawn Bowden about early years provision and what we've done to increase the number of children who can access Flying Start, and to provide greater bilingual and Welsh-medium provision under that programme.

I'm sure I could go around the whole Cabinet table and give you examples of things that they do that are pertinent to the Welsh language, and where I take an interest in what they are doing.

That's very useful. Jeremy wants to come in.

Could I just add one thing from last week? An artificial intelligence plan has been published by the Welsh Government, and the Welsh language is at the heart of that. We're working with those officials as they develop this new department that will also promote and ensure that the Welsh language is part of AI, wherever there's a way of that happening.

That's useful. Each one of those examples highlights how broad the Welsh language is across the different departments. So, in order to be able to monitor—because, clearly, we can't scrutinise every department in the same way in looking at the budget—may I ask: in terms of the 'Cymraeg 2050' officials, how much influence do they have over the policy of other departments in some of those areas that you've just mentioned?

Well, perhaps I'll ask Elin to provide the detail as to how officials monitor and collaborate with others across Government. But, for me, when I think about how we can have oversight of what is happening across Government, there are three things that I can say this afternoon, I think. In terms of the work of the officials, I'll ask Elin to cover that.

One thing that I've been doing, because I'm not sure if the committee will have heard about the Welsh spending review—. That is an opportunity for us to look forward to the future across the whole Government budget, and to think about where the possibilities to change the way in which we spend money could arise in the future.

We do focus, of course, on the major areas such as health, the economy and public services, but there are four themes that cut across that whole programme, and one of those themes is 'Cymraeg 2050'. So, I've been having meetings with Cabinet members. The Cabinet has had a major session on that review, and every time I speak to other Ministers, 'Cymraeg 2050' does come up in those discussions.

Just one other thing—of course, I am responsible for finance too. So, that's not always going to be the case, of course; it will depend how responsibilities are distributed. But at the moment, because I am responsible for the Welsh language and finance too, I do see virtually everything that goes before other Ministers, and I do try to keep an eye on, where they are doing things, where there are greater possibilities to strengthen our activities in relation to the Welsh language.

That's very useful. Sorry, were you going to say something?

Well, just if you wanted to hear from Elin in terms of what officials are doing.

If Elin would like to come in, yes.

So, perhaps I could expand and explain how that then permeates through the Government in terms of the officials. There are all kinds of different processes and systems that ensure that the Welsh language is considered as part of decisions, for example procurement processes and things like that, to ensure that we have a framework where the Welsh language is part of the considerations at officials' level. And then there is a role for 'Cymraeg 2050' officials to engage with officials across Government. As somebody who is comparatively new to Government, that system seems to be working. So, for example, since I started in this post, I sit on the economic strategy board, and that's an opportunity to talk about 'Cymraeg 2050'.

The Cabinet Secretary mentioned the Welsh spending review, I think, and last week or the week before, we were with all the draftspersons of that work, discussing the sorts of things they should be considering and the questions they should be asking when thinking about how to mainstream 'Cymraeg 2050' into their work. And that is separate to the work within the organisation in terms of the use of the Welsh language within the organisation. So, there are many ways in which the Welsh language is part of the conversation, as well as the ministerial responsibilities and the official decisions.

Thank you for that. That's very useful for us. May I ask specifically, therefore, in terms of the specific allocations in the central services and administration main expenditure group and the education MEG? You've mentioned a number of ways that projects or specific things in those departments and those MEG contribute to the Welsh language. But in terms of the Welsh Government's well-being goal of a 'Wales of vibrant culture and thriving Welsh language', are there separate processes compared to the 'Cymraeg 2050' ones, or would they be the same processes for both in terms of having oversight of that whole area?

Well, Chair, as I tried to explain, I do work with many Cabinet members, but I work most closely with the Cabinet Secretary with responsibility for education, because that is where we work together on a number of things that are relevant to 'Cymraeg 2050'.

So, in terms of specifics, well, I can refer to the siarter iaith. So, that comes from Lynne Neagle's budget, but, of course, because that is implemented through our schools, then almost every primary school is now working towards the siarter iaith—that is crucially important for me. It was important when I brought the Bill before the Senedd, because by doing that we are increasing the amount of learning in English-medium schools that's provided through the medium of Welsh, which helps them to develop their Welsh language skills. Adnodd is another area that is now totally contained within the education Secretary's budget, but is still relevant to 'Cymraeg 2050', because through Adnodd we create resources for the new curriculum in Welsh, and covering all subjects taught through the medium of Welsh.

Thank you. We'll go into more detail shortly. Have I just interrupted you? Sorry, I thought you'd finished.

Of course, there are a huge number of examples from my MEG that are in the CSA, but it's just a matter of administrative convenience. There are a number of specific areas where we fund initiatives that contribute not just towards the language, but also culture. I'm sure you wouldn't want me to list them all—

No, you don't have to list them all.

I'll give you one example of something that Jeremy and I did together. We went to Hermon in Pembrokeshire a few months ago now to celebrate the fiftieth anniversary of the papur bro there, the local newspaper. The papur bro there is called Clebran, and they were celebrating 50 years of publication. It was wonderful. There were many people who had been there 50 years ago when the paper was established, and they were present for that celebration 50 years later. But just to hear how the papur bro does contribute not only to the language but also to the ethos of that community. There are many things within my budget that do contribute to the broader issues that are pertinent to the Welsh language.

The sorts of things that are difficult to measure in terms of value for money. I say that because it's more than something that can be measured.

It's more than that—just listening to what people had to say at that event about the possibilities provided by such a paper. I think they said something like eight people read every copy. So, it's passed around from one member of the family to another and then on to neighbours, and in doing so, people discuss local issues and the importance of the Welsh language.

Before we move on, because I know Members have a number of questions on different areas, on that point of ensuring that Welsh-speaking communities have the support they need, the Commission for Welsh-speaking Communities looked at the need to address the climate and nature emergency and the effect that that could have or is having on the Welsh language. May I ask what consideration, if any, is given to that link between the climate and nature emergency and the Welsh language and how that has been part of any budgetary discussions? Do you think there'll be a need for that to be more of a consideration in the future?

I am sure about that, because it is a long-term issue, but it has been central to the discussions that we've had within Government on the sustainable farming scheme. I think the commission's thinking was that the Welsh language is stronger in rural parts of Wales, and farmers are central to that and to the future of the Welsh language and nature, and the nature of farming will change in a period where there is significant climate change.

I provide funding to help the young farmers clubs, and one of the themes of their work is preparation for a future where things are changing and how the future of farming will look. Sustainability is central to that and brings all of it together. So, I do agree that there is an interrelationship between the Welsh language and climate change, and that's a long-term issue, but we are discussing it now.

I had an opportunity probably around a year ago to visit Morlais up in Ynys Môn, which is related to creating sustainable energy for the future. Morlais does that as part of Menter Môn. So, the Welsh language and the possibilities to generate sustainable energy are there, because the possibilities to do that will increase in communities where the Welsh language is stronger—on the coast, in west Wales. So, we are doing things already, but there will be a lot more work to do.

Thank you for that. We'll move to questions from Heledd.

Thank you, Chair. If I could ask, to begin with, about Mudiad Meithrin, and whether you could expand, in terms of the draft budget, on their core grant, and also if you could confirm that Mudiad Meithrin will receive an inflationary increase as part of this budget.

The funding provided to Mudiad Meithrin comes from two different places. The Cabinet Secretary for Education provides part of that budget. As I understand it, at the moment she doesn't intend to provide more funding in the next financial year to Mudiad Meithrin. She has made decisions to use the additional funding available to her and to spend that on other priorities. I think that she appeared before the children and young people committee today and responded to questions about the decisions that she has taken. But funding is provided to Mudiad Meithrin from the 'Cymraeg 2050' budget too. I haven't made the final decisions as to how I will use the additional funds that I have available for the next year, but we are still considering whether we can provide more funding for Mudiad Meithrin.

Thank you for that. I haven't caught up with the evidence from the Cabinet Secretary for Education today. But certainly, in terms of the discussions we've had previously in scrutiny—. And your evidence, of course, shows that—. For Mudiad Meithrin, you mentioned they're on the right track to exceed the target of opening new cylchoedd meithrin. Are you therefore discussing with them what would be the implications of not having an inflationary increase in terms of continuing with this work? Because obviously we've had discussions before, and the evidence we've heard is that it is very challenging for cylchoedd meithrin financially in terms of being able to continue, and for Mudiad Meithrin themselves.

There are a number of points there, Chair. Of course, we are having discussions with Mudiad Meithrin. They do have a new chief executive who will start in post next month, I believe. Jeremy, have you met her?

We've met the current chief executive and the new chief executive as part of that handover. She will begin on the tenth [correction: fifteenth] of next month.

We do have ongoing discussions with them. I do recognise the fact, as is the case with almost everything that we do, that a shortage of money will have an impact on their activities. When they—.

Sorry, I'm going to say it in English, because it's just in my head. When we first agreed with the mudiad a programme of expansion in the work they do, the best metric we could find was the number of outlets that they support. I think we've got better data now, and we've got, I think, an evolving better metric, which is the number of hours of contact that they have with young people. Because you could open a lot of centres and do very little in them and look like you'd had a success because you've got all these new centres, but actually there's not much happening.

What we're counting at the moment are the number of hours of contact, and there's been quite a strong growth in that number in recent times. The mudiad do a fantastic job. They support over 400 established centres, as well as the new centres that are being opened. I think my understanding, but it's a bit at a distance, is that where a centre opens and it doesn't succeed, there is always a mixture of reasons behind that.

One is that these are all volunteers. You've got to find people who are willing to be on the committee and to lead that, and voluntary effort does wax and wane a bit, and it's a bit vulnerable to key individuals, isn't it? Somebody moves to a job elsewhere and they're hard to replace, and the momentum that has been established doesn't get sustained. Where there are difficulties, that's often part of the mix. Staffing is often part of the mix, because we know that the general struggle to increase early years provision is about staffing, premises and money, often in that order. So, money is in the mix, but it's probably not the main reason why things don't always develop in the way that you hope.

What I think the mudiad has been very good at is creatively thinking of new ways in which it can expand its reach, often now opening developments in English-medium settings. So, you've got an English-medium school, but the mudiad will have its own provision alongside it to try to demonstrate to people that there are other choices that they could make for the future education of their children. I'm not seeking to deny for a minute that with more money they could do more, with more money their position would be more stable, but money I think is one of the reasons in the mix, and, on the whole, it's a sector that does very well indeed for us.

Thank you for that. I think what I would note, of course, is the fact that we've had the Welsh Language and Education (Wales) Act 2025. It's now legislation, and obviously within that, the role of Mudiad Meithrin is very clear. I note what you say in terms of the English-medium school settings, but clearly, in terms of following the Welsh-medium education route, Mudiad Meithrin certainly has a role. Perhaps we as a committee want to understand how this draft budget aligns with the Welsh language and education Act and people following on that language continuum, and how what's been allocated for Mudiad Meithrin aligns with that vision and the Act. Or is further work required to ensure that we do fund to follow the Act?

I do recognise the importance of the work that Mudiad Meithrin do in pursuing the ambitions of the Act. But of course, when Mudiad Meithrin do provide new possibilities in English-medium schools, that's contributing in two ways to the objectives of the Act. One is that we want to draw more young people into Welsh-medium education, and the Bill increases the percentage of pupils that we want to see in that sector, but we also want to do more to help young people who are educated through the medium of English to become confident and independent Welsh speakers. So, when the Mudiad puts things in place in the context of English-medium schools, they can contribute to both of those aspects simultaneously.

I had an opportunity on the floor of the Chamber, Chair, to set out a timetable in terms of implementing the Act. In that first phase, and in the budget for next year, I want to focus on the athrofa. We are establishing the athrofa, and the establishment of the athrofa is one of the first steps in that timetable. I don't want to cut the National Centre for Learning Welsh's budget in order to develop work on the athrofa, because the centre does excellent work and there is a great deal of momentum behind their work, and a lot more people taking advantage of their resources, particularly the growth in the number of young people accessing courses and so on provided by the centre. So, I will have to look at the additional funding available to us to consider how we can support the athrofa and the pathway that we have in place to establish the athrofa at quite an early stage in the process of implementing the Act.

Thank you for that. If I could move on, therefore, could you expand on the reasons why funding for Adnodd has been transferred out of the Welsh in education BEL and to confirm if the allocation from the Welsh language budget is split evenly with those that support the English language provision developed by Adnodd?

Chair, I've not had an opportunity to review what Lynne Neagle said before the education committee this morning, but I have heard that the issue of Adnodd and the funding that has been transferred was raised by the Children, Young People and Education Committee and that the Cabinet Secretary had committed to providing a note to explain the technicalities behind those transfers of funding. So, if it's useful for the committee, then I would be happy to share that note with you all.

That would be most useful.

Yes, thank you.

It is a technical issue. Every year, funding comes out of one BEL and is placed in another. The story behind that, I think, goes like this: Adnodd was established in 2023 as part of the work that we've been doing to establish the new Curriculum for Wales, and there were many people calling for a new programme to be put in place to help to shape the market. We are dependent on the market to develop and publish resources in education, but, with the new curriculum, people were eager to have some sort of programme in place that could help the market to develop resources that are pertinent to the new curriculum. In that first year, the work to be done with Adnodd was work that was in the system already—so, legacy work, things that had already happened, and 'Cymraeg 2050' officials were involved with that.

Now, that's worked its way through the system and Adnodd is now focusing on the new resources that have been commissioned, and, therefore, it just made more sense now to bring all of that funding together under one budget line within the budget. That is being taken forward by Lynne Neagle, and I have already seen that she has said that she wants to give greater priority to Welsh language resources for pupils with additional learning needs. So, I am confident that the resources already created under the new programme—that that will continue now that we have drawn those budgets together.

Thank you very much and certainly we would appreciate that technical note. I think, in terms of scrutiny, the fact that this falls between two Cabinet Secretaries, and, clearly, because you led on the Bill, understanding then where it falls and where the scrutiny happens is complex for us all, but I think, for us to have the assurance with the scrutiny, that would be useful.

Just going on from the point you made there, clearly, you referred to ALN there. Previously, you have mentioned the Welsh-medium capital grant that is in the education infrastructure BEL and that that would support ALN and immersion. I notice, in terms of the draft budget, you have additional funding for the local education authority grant in terms of immersion. Is that in order to support the continuation of the current provision or will there be an expansion within that as well?

Well, we are doing more year on year at the moment in relation to late immersion and what I wanted to see was an assurance in that area. It's something that has grown quickly and successfully, and it was reliant on the funding that the Cabinet Secretary for Education could find to support that. Well, I wanted to provide assurance to people. There are 60 teachers now who are specialists in this area and we are doing more year on year. So, we have found additional funding now in order to strengthen that budget line, which supports people in providing those services. And the funding isn't just to continue with business as usual, but to do more in the future too.

In this financial year—well, we are more than half way through the financial year now, but—in Gwynedd they have opened five new immersion centres, all within the same county. Now, I had an opportunity to visit Ceredigion in the summer and Ysgol Henry Richard, where I met young people who have gone through the new immersion system, and they have a centre in that school. But the cabinet member that leads on Welsh-medium education was explaining to me the programme that they have in place to develop more centres in Ceredigion too. And the new funding will be in place in order to provide assurance for people who have been involved with the work in the past, but also to help us to do more in the future too. And there are very many interesting things that are emerging from that work. Perhaps I could ask Elin—. She was talking to me this morning about the number of young people from BAME communities who have come into Welsh-medium education through these new immersion centres.

There is quite a high percentage, particularly in Cardiff and Gwynedd. That is crucial, obviously, to ensure that communities where Welsh-medium education hasn't perhaps been a traditional route—. It's very good to see that progress, because it shows that the late immersion system is succeeding in attracting people from communities that perhaps wouldn't have understood what Welsh-medium education is or its advantages. And a very important element, I think, of the late immersion process, is increasing multiculturalism, as well as ensuring that as many children as possible all over Wales have access to Welsh-medium education.

Thank you. If I could just ask one other question before we move on, in terms of the £15 million per annum for three years allocation in the education MEG to support Welsh-medium education capital projects, could I ask what role do you have, as Cabinet Secretary and 'Cymraeg 2050' officials, in the decision-making process?

Well, Chair, I think there are two aspects to the role that I'm responsible for. The first is influence. You can have an influence on the decisions made by others in the Cabinet. As I said, I work most closely with the Cabinet Secretary for Education, and, as the Bill was progressing through the Senedd, I would meet with her often in order to work on the content of the Bill. I will be meeting her next week too, because by collaborating and having those opportunities to discuss issues, I can have an influence in relation to the Welsh language. So, that's one way in which we approach it. And the other, I think, is through the Cabinet. At the end of the day, every decision we make as Ministers is made through collective responsibility. I can't remember the Welsh term for 'collective responsibility'.

Collective—

Collective responsibility.

—responsibility.

Collective, yes. So, every time papers come to Cabinet, there will be paragraphs within those papers that refer to the impact of the policy on the Welsh language. I am at the table always if there are questions to ask, if officials inform me that there are points to be made here in terms of how we can do more to collaborate in order to enhance the impact on the Welsh language of policies taken forward by other Cabinet Secretaries. So, I can do it with other members of the Cabinet, but I can also do it in the Cabinet as a whole.

Thank you.

Thank you, Heledd. Elin.

Perhaps it's worth adding that that is another example of where 'Cymraeg 2050' officials work very closely with officials in the education directorate to look at projects that are coming along as grant applications come in, and work with local authorities to understand how that is going to affect their strategic plans. So, the collaboration is happening on an officials level and then feeds in to the recommendations that come to Ministers for approval.

Thank you. There was one thing that struck me when you were talking about getting all communities to think that Welsh-medium education is for them. There's a campaign in Cardiff at the moment for another secondary school because of exactly this point, so decisions are far-reaching. If you're investing in immersion, you need to ensure that the continuum and the capacity is there in secondary schools and so forth.

Well, the growth in the south of Cardiff has been very strong. I am familiar with the campaign to open a new secondary school in Cardiff south, because we have attracted more people from the communities living in the south of Cardiff, in Riverside and so on, attracted those young people, into Welsh-medium education. So, we've succeeded, but, following that success, there are other challenges emerging.

Thank you.

Thank you for that. We'll move on to Mick.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. In the breadth of your answers, you've covered a number of areas that I was going to ask about, so I'll try and avoid going over things that you've already discussed. Some practical points, I think, on the Welsh language BEL: there's an increase in funding of £850,000 for the Welsh language BEL, and £772,000 is in respect of inflationary uplift. Now, it's in respect of a large number of organisations: mentrau iaith, the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol, the National Eisteddfod, the Urdd and a number of others. Will they all be getting the inflationary increase? Is this something that applies now across the board, or is it going to be variable?

Well, it is my intention that they will all get an increase, but, as I said in an earlier answer, my top priority for the budget is that it should support the implementation of the new Act. And, as I also explained earlier, in the early part of the timetable for implementing the Act comes the establishment of the athrofa. So—I'm going to be as completely frank as I can be with the committee—if I'm not going to do that by reducing the budget for the national centre, which I don't want to do, then the athrofa is going to get more than a 2 per cent share of the additional money, and that will mean that there will be less than 2 per cent for others. Now, I haven't made the final decision on how the distribution is to be made. It is my intention that everybody will get an increase, but I can't guarantee that everybody will get 2 per cent, because I do want to attach some priority to that very important part of the implementation of the Act.

Thanks, and I presume with the athrofa as well that ensuring that there's funding available for not only pay inflation, but national insurance contributions as well, is obviously something that will figure in your consideration.

With regard to the review of the grant scheme to facilitate the use of the Welsh language, how do you see funding for that, with consideration of the findings and recommendations that have been ongoing for some time in the review that began some years ago? I just wonder what your thoughts are around that at the moment.

Well, Chair, I guess to be equally frank you'd have to recognise that the implementation of the review has been delayed, but it has been delayed because of the ambitions we've had in this area, and in many ways that level of ambition was increased as a result of the co-operation agreement, and some of those priorities—. It’s the same group of people who have to do all of these things, and in order to accommodate new priorities, some things had to be put more on the back burner.

So, you'll all be aware of all the additional things we've done in this Senedd term, all the work we've done in relation to second homes, and the impact of that on the cadarnleoedd; all the work we have done on the Bill itself that we've been talking about—that was a commitment in the co-operation agreement; the commitment we made in the co-operation agreement to extending the reach of Welsh language standards to new areas. It was my judgment that I'd rather use the resources available through the officers and officials who work on all of this for those purposes, rather than completing the review.

That is partly because what the review demonstrated is what you would expect: that there is a reasonably limited number of organisations that are able to put forward applications for work in this field. When I was the health Minister, I remember a grant scheme that we developed for third sector organisations in health and social services, and there were just loads and loads of applications that came in for that, because the number of organisations in that field is far more extensive. You put up a grant scheme in the Welsh language and the number of applications you get come essentially from people and organisations you're already familiar with. So, my feeling was that we could afford to spend a bit less time on the review in order to achieve the other ambitions.

One of the recommendations in the review was that we should establish grant schemes over longer periods of time to give more certainty to the sector, and one of the things I was hoping to have a chance to mention to the committee today is that I've recently agreed that we will move to a three-year cycle of funding. So, that is a response to the review, and I'm hopeful that I will be able to issue letters before Christmas, not making the final decisions, but making offers of grants to organisations who are funded in that way. So, although it's been slower in implementing the review—I acknowledge that—it’s not that it's been forgotten, and some of the recommendations are still bearing fruit, and probably most directly in that decision that's been made very recently.

Thank you for that helpful answer. A couple of questions with regard to the Welsh Language Commissioner, because certainly we've been taking evidence and scrutinising that area, and of course there is an increase in terms of responsibilities and expansion of the area of standards within the remit of the language commissioner. They've certainly made representations, as you know, in terms of their funding. What they have said is that a 2 per cent uplift would enable them to, basically, just provide a cost-of-living increase, but nothing more. I suppose it's really your thoughts on, one, the request for additional funding, but also funding in respect of the additional responsibilities that have accrued to the language commissioner—what your thoughts are on that, and how that might be provided for.

Chair, I haven't made this point so far this afternoon, but this is, as you know, a restated budget. It takes last year's budget, and it uprates it in line with that 2 per cent figure. That means that we have allocated 98.6 per cent of all the resources available to us, but there is 1.4 per cent still to be allocated. I am very keen to have conversations with other parties about how that further money could be used. We have a little bit more money than we knew this time—well, certainly, yesterday morning—because of yesterday's budget. So, there's another sum of money there ready to be used, and if in those discussions it is determined that this is an area where more investment could be used, I'm very open to having those conversations. At the moment, the Welsh Language Commissioner is being treated exactly the same as all the other commissioners that we have. They have that increase in their budget of 2 per cent for ordinary running costs, slightly more than that for pay costs.

Look, my own view is—and it's very important that I respect the independence of the commissioner, so I don't want to trespass into that territory—but I read that the commissioner had said to this committee that she thought that she ran an effective organisation and a well-managed organisation, and I agree with that. I think the commissioner has demonstrated her ability to move resources to meet new priorities, to change some of the ways in which she runs her organisation in order to free up resources to do more important things, and I have confidence that she'll manage her budget in that way next year.

Mick Antoniw asked me, Chair, specifically about the new responsibilities that the commissioner has, and I acknowledge the fact that she will be responsible for applying the standards to a new field in housing associations. I think it's fair to say that that will not be a standing start. There are many housing associations that already have very powerful and effective policies in relation to the Welsh language. There are housing associations that operate primarily through the Welsh language in Wales, so it won't be that this is a field where there isn't anything to build on.

I think one of the strengths of the commissioner in recent times has been her co-regulation approach, where she takes a differentiated view of the amount of intervention she needs to take, based on her assessment of the strength or otherwise of organisations. Where she believes people are doing a good job already, then she spends less of her time working with those organisations, so she can use more of her time where there's more ground to be gained. And I think she'll bring the same approach to her work with housing associations, and she'll find that there are organisations that already do very well, and there'll be organisations where she will have to make more of an input. I think she's demonstrated successfully her ability to operate in that way.

It will be a challenge—I do understand that. If there was more money, she could do more, but even within the budget she has, I think she's demonstrated a very effective ability to align resource with priorities.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Chair, that completes the area of questioning I wanted to ask about.

Thank you, Mick. We'll move to Alun.

Thank you very much. Cabinet Secretary, I remember the conversations we had during the Welsh Language and Education (Wales) Bill, and you were very clear in your vision about increasing the amount of Welsh that is part of education in English-medium schools and in Welsh-medium schools, obviously. I've seen that there's been quite a large increase in the education grant to local authorities—I think it's about 8 per cent, something like that. But does this reflect your vision and your ambition, those that you were discussing with us when the Bill was before the committee?

I thank Alun Davies for the question, Chair. So, as I have already explained, implementing the Act is my biggest priority. Most of the new funding will go into the late-immersion centres, because that's where we have seen growth most recently, and that is a significant part of the Act. I have set out the timetable on the floor of the Chamber. We are investing money at the moment in things that will help local authorities in the future.

We have published the first document explaining how we will use the common European framework of reference for languages, because that is a very important part of the Act. There will be a conference next week where we will draw people from overseas into Wales to explain how they have used the CEFR, for example, in the Basque Country, but also elsewhere. There will be many people from local authorities who will be participating in that conference as part of the work that they are doing in order to prepare for the implementation of the Act and the next steps in the Act.

I have been looking for support outwith my own budget to contribute to the ambitions of the Act. One of the things that I have recognised—and I'm continuing to discuss with other Ministers—is the contribution made by the Urdd. I had the opportunity over the summer to go to Glan-llyn and to the new centre near Pentre Ifan. One of the things that I hadn't quite understood when the chief executive was explaining to me was that more than half of the schools that spend residential time in those centres come from the English-medium sector. So, when we were having a great deal of discussion when the Bill was before the Senedd in terms of how we can increase how much the Welsh language is used in English-medium schools, one of the things that we can do is to use the possibilities provided by agencies such as the Urdd. When I was in Glan-llyn particularly, the chief executive explained to me that they can't take groups during December and January, when it's dark at half past three in the afternoon, because there are a lot of activities that can be undertaken outside, but there aren't many possibilities for indoor activities. The Urdd has developed a capital project in order to provide more resources so that they can open throughout the year, because they do have a waiting list, and there are more schools wanting to visit the centres than there is capacity for them. I am currently having discussions with other Ministers to see whether we can find a way of helping the Urdd with that project. So, if we can help them to do more, and particularly to attract more English-medium schools into the centres, then that will make a major contribution to the implementation of the Act too.

I want to use the budgets that I have, but I am also always on the lookout for other possibilities, working with other budgets, where people can help towards the ambitions set out in the Act.

Thank you for that, and I appreciate the work that the Urdd undertakes, and I share your feelings on that. I also think that the work that you're doing to support immersion is important as well. Not in this Bill, but how closely are you working with local authorities to enable authorities to increase how much Welsh-medium education is available? I think, at the moment, that there's a new Welsh-medium school opening—the first one—in Tredegar next year, and I'm looking forward very much to that. But Blaenau Gwent tell me that the Government is very good in supporting the capital element to establish a school and to open a school, but then, of course, they have to run the school and pay the costs associated with that. Do you have conversations with the WLGA or individual local authorities about how we increase the reach, if you like, of Welsh-medium education, to enable children all over Wales to receive Welsh-medium education, perhaps for the first time?

Well, perhaps I could ask Jeremy to explain the work that's being done by officials. I had the opportunity to meet with the cabinet members from virtually all of the local authorities. We'd drawn those cabinet members with responsibility for the Welsh language together to discuss how we could do more to help them.

I've heard Alun Davies speaking before now about the importance of regional working, particularly in the south-east of Wales, in order to help local authorities to make the best use of their resources through collaboration. Now, when we talk and when officials speak to local authorities, of course, we are discussing the work that they're doing to prepare for the new Welsh in education strategic plans, and the new approach to planning the WESPs is set out in the Act. So, that's important. But perhaps I could ask Jeremy to explain more about the work he is doing.

No problem. To answer the question that you asked, there are three elements to it. We have undertaken research with parents to understand why they don't want Welsh-medium education, and flip that—. That is part of the work that I mentioned in the committee back in July, that we're working with social psychologists. We have discovered that perhaps the Welsh language isn't at the forefront of people's minds. They just want a good school where their children are going to be happy, while organisations in the past, perhaps, have concentrated on, 'Here's all the information about bilingualism, why it's good for you, why it would be very good for you later on in life.' We have found that that doesn't resonate with parents. So, we have looked at how we promote or market or work with parents, and we've looked at peer work between parents who have children in Welsh-medium education already.

The second element is to implement that. We've done that with funding that went to Carmarthenshire and other nearby counties as part of the co-operation agreement—Swansea, Powys, Neath Port talbot and Carmarthenshire—with psychologists working with those particular officials on increasing the work with parents, breaking down the barriers and giving people who work in those councils the skills. This all feeds into the Cymraeg i Bawb project, which has started with the consortium in the south-east. We're now expanding that consortium across Wales, which, of course, then feeds into the legislation, as you've mentioned.

I've found that work so very interesting because there were things that we had thought in the past that would persuade people to enter Welsh-medium education—that work suggests that that isn't having the impact that you'd anticipated. You have to emphasise other things in order to appeal to people, and to use more individuals. We've relied on school headteachers, for example, and thought that, if the school head is out there speaking to people, that'll give people confidence to bring their children into Welsh-medium education, but the work that we've done suggests that that isn't the voice that's going to appeal to people. You have to use other people. So, if the committee is interested, we could share more of the conclusions that have emerged from the work that Jeremy has been leading on.

We'd appreciate that.

That would be really useful. I think Heledd would like to come in before we move on.

Just on that point, I think it would also be very useful, and it would be useful too, perhaps, to understand how you see that work influencing on the budget going forward, because, clearly, if we have understood that it is different in terms of what people's aspirations are, one of the things I'd be interested to know—and we won't go into detail now—is around school transport and how much of a factor that is, and the location of a school in terms of parent choice, because you can promote as much as you want, but if people can't reach the school—. So, obviously that has an implication in terms of budgets beyond what we're scrutinising today, but it is something that does arise quite often. So, perhaps, Chair, we could return to that after receiving the information. I think it would be beneficial.

I can see Members that are in agreement.

I'm happy to share more.

I'd appreciate that too, because when you choose a school for your child, access to that school is very important, isn't it? If the school isn't close to your home, then you have no decision to make, essentially. So, I would like to continue with that discussion if we could, Cabinet Secretary.

But if I could move on now. I have great interest in the Arfor programme, because—. I agree with Adam Price. I like the structure and I like the framework. Now, you have decided to reflect on the success of Arfor at the moment, and I'd like your comments, if possible, on the success or otherwise of Arfor, if that's how you see it. I want to understand this, because for me, it is important that we support communities. Here, we are talking about Welsh-speaking communities, but you could say the same about Valleys communities. So, I'm thinking about the philosophy, if you like, underpinning the programme, and where you think Arfor has got to at present.

Well, I'm happy to try and help, but I'm not responsible for Arfor. Rebecca Evans leads on it. But I will try and answer your question, because I do remember the original discussions that took place between Leighton Andrews and Rhodri Glyn Thomas.

Of course, yes.

That's where the idea first emerged. And originally, the idea was to try and persuade people that the Welsh language is something that is important in the economy. As you know, over many years, the story has been that, 'The Welsh language will hold you back in economic terms' and 'The language of the economy is English', and that people who speak Welsh speak it at home, but when they're at work they speak English because English is the language of business and so on. The original purpose of Arfor was to try and tell people, 'No, no, the Welsh language is something that you can use in a positive way in order to develop the local economy.' And the programmes that have emerged from Arfor, or under the umbrella of Arfor—their purpose is to increase the amount of Welsh spoken in local communities, in order to develop the economy. Of course, it helps the language and it helps in social terms too, but the guiding principles are those things that develop economic opportunities for people.

So, just to give you a couple of examples of the things that I have seen and where I think that there is clear evidence that it's had an effect of that sort: in the work, for example, of the Profi project. The Profi project has continued even though there is a pause and reflect period of Arfor 2. Ceredigion, I think, was the lead authority there, and they've continued to run the Profi project, because that is about persuading young people that their ability to speak Welsh is an economic advantage to them and that they can use the fact that they have those skills to be able to seek work and create economic opportunities that otherwise might have escaped them. It's been a bit of a puzzle to me. I've stood on many platforms over many years now, but I've done sessions in Carmarthen, where I'm from, with young people who were brought up speaking Welsh, and I've often thought that you've got to work quite hard to explain to them that the fact that they are Welsh speaking is something that they should be using positively to their advantage when they come to look for work, because of the many places where we need to strengthen the ability of services to provide a service through the medium of the Welsh language. But where that idea is one that you're having to unveil to them, really. They hadn't considered it in that way. Welsh is just what they do. They just speak it all the time. They don't necessarily think, 'If I'm applying for a job like that, I should make something of the fact that I have that ability.' And Arfor was partly designed, and the Profi project certainly, to equip young people with those skills and to get them to see them through that economic lens.

Now, the bit of Arfor that I've been most closely involved in is the Perthyn project. I think that Perthyn has definitely been a success. It is small amounts of money, but it enables communities to do things in that economic space that they wouldn't be able to do otherwise, often by getting in some expertise to help them to be able to carry forward the ideas they have. I was in north Wales recently and visited two projects in Llanrwst. One was a group of people who wanted to take over a shop that had been on the high street there for 50 years. The owner was retiring and there wasn't an obvious successor, and yet the shop was a place where people came together naturally to use the Welsh language. A relatively small Perthyn grant created a business plan for them, it has got together the expertise that they need and the shop is going to stay open, with a very big, positive impact that people felt from succeeding in making a project of that sort happen with the enormous amount of community support that they'd been able to gather for it. That's another economic—. It's a shop on the high street. It will have to make money in order to survive, and the Perthyn grant I think gave them the confidence that that could happen. So, while Arfor is in a pause and reflect phase—and those are not decisions that I make—I'm aware of the fact that some of the strands in it continue because they've demonstrated their worth.

It would be worth continuing with the conversation about that, because despite the fact that Arfor is an economic scheme, the impact on Welsh language communities is an important one when it comes to implementing Simon Brooks's work, of course.

Of course, there are new possibilities too. That's why it's important that we continue with those discussions. The responsibilities that have been repatriated to Wales in terms of the budget, having left the European Union—those will have an impact in the communities where Arfor has been doing work on the ground. So, there are further possibilities for us to invest in those circumstances that can support the Welsh language and support the local economy too, and to bring those two things together. So, I do agree with Alun Davies on the importance of continuing with this discussion to think about new possibilities.

One of the things that I've been concerned about with Arfor is that north Pembrokeshire hasn't been part of the programme, but that is one of the language's strongholds. So, we do need to, perhaps, think more flexibly about how to draw communities in to everything that we've learned over the past decade.

It sounds like something for the manifesto as well. I am satisfied with that, Chair. I don't have any more questions.

Thank you. Can I just check—? You mentioned Perthyn. Acknowledging what Alun said earlier about how communities such as the Valleys can benefit from similar projects, is there a risk, in terms of extending the scheme throughout Wales, that perhaps the funding is spread too thinly? What can be done in the budget to address that?

Two things. I think there would be more money in the programme, not just using the original funding and spreading the jam more thinly. So, it's an issue of more money, and we still, through this programme, provide—

Weightings.

When possibilities do come forward, we still put weighting on opportunities within the heartlands. So, we're not just saying that it's the same everywhere. But one of the things that we are trying to do as a Government is to learn lessons from those things that we do pilot, and when we do see that things succeed, then we will try and roll them out. And having gathered the evidence of the success of Perthyn, I am eager to make those possibilities available to more communities and more local groups in Wales. But we do still, in the documentation that we've published on the new programme, put greater weighting on the possibilities from the Welsh-speaking heartlands. We haven't turned our backs on that.

Thank you for that. Heledd has a question.

I just wanted to follow on from that, but specifically with Arfor. Clearly, the evaluation work that you have noted is happening, but not the funding, because clearly, you want to see how the evaluation goes. It just strikes me in listening to the evidence how much work has been done during this Senedd term in terms of developing a number of things in terms of the Welsh language. Clearly, we've mentioned the Act and the Welsh-speaking communities commission. The second phase will be going forward and there'll be recommendations from that. And I'm sure that there will be funding and funding requirements associated with that. How do you think we can move towards a model—?

You also mentioned that the responsibility is cross-Government, but we do see that expenditure in terms of the Welsh language can still be small. In looking forward, we're looking at and scrutinising this work, but obviously, we'll be looking at recommendations as a committee for things for the next Senedd as well. Do you see, in order to align with the ambition in terms of the Welsh language, that we need to look at how we can fund some of these things to achieve the target of 1 million Welsh speakers? Because, clearly, from the draft budget we have, we're not seeing that shift. I understand what you've outlined, but do you think there are things that will come out of that evaluation that will mean that Governments in the future will have to look at where more significant investment is required on the Welsh language?

We published the explanatory memorandum alongside the Bill, and that does demonstrate that we brought the Bill forward on the basis that future Governments will have to retain the funding already in the system but also to provide further funding in the future. The Act will be there for the next decade. At the moment, we have more money in the next financial year to take forward those things that need to be done early on in terms of the time frame. But in the future, if we are going to make the very most of the new legislation, then a future Government will have to find more money to support it.

It's a question that we've been returning to time and again over the years in terms of the best way of doing that—do you have one person who is responsible for the whole area or do you share the responsibilities? And then, how you keep an eye on the funding when responsibilities are distributed. As I tried to explain in my response to the very first question this afternoon, virtually all members of the Cabinet are doing something that contributes to the Welsh language, but that does create challenges, I think, in trying to draw all of those things together and to see in budgetary terms where everything happens.

Thank you.

Thank you. May I thank the three of you for the evidence this afternoon? I'm so used to saying 'this morning', but it's this afternoon in this context. A transcript of what's been said will be sent to you for checking. But may I thank you once again? There are many things that you've mentioned that you'll arrange to be sent to us, so thank you very much for the evidence.