Climate Change, Environment, and Infrastructure Committee

Good morning and thank you, Llyr. I'm looking forward to discussing the work of NRW with you.

Thank you, Chair, and thank you to the committee for the opportunity to appear before you so early in my tenure. I come to this role very clear-eyed, and I said as much when I was honoured enough to sit in front of you a few months ago. Climate change and nature loss are no longer distant risks. People across Wales are already feeling the impacts in their communities through flooding, water quality, wildfire risks, and the pressure on land and ecosystems. This is not an abstract discussion. It's lived experience for most of the people who live in Wales, and I have seen some of this recently.

Wales was right to create Natural Resources Wales. The vision that brought NRW together remains absolutely the right one today, and that's been reaffirmed by some of the visits I've made across Wales over the last six months, really, because I started doing this in July. A single, joined-up organisation with a single purpose, helping citizens and communities, businesses as well, navigate the complex environmental challenge is all now being dealt with through one place to come to. One regulator, one organisation with a shared mind and shared aims, not three all pulling different ways, or four pulling different ways. I'd urge the committee and Government to hold true to this. Test it, let it happen, and then let's see what we need to change afterwards. New things are always a little bit testing, and we've got to run with that for a little while. This was a good idea, it's a good thing to do.

NRW's purpose is as true today as it was at its creation: to pursue sustainable management of Wales's natural resources. That means maintaining resilient ecosystems, managing land and water, protecting our environment, tackling climate change through mitigation, adaptation, supporting health and well-being, and increasingly responding to emergencies. On the last point, what I have seen is NRW doing more of the latter, that is, responding constantly to emergencies. Therein lies a risk that we're not doing the things we should be doing to mitigate. So, we might at some point have to ask ourselves, 'Are we investing the right amount of resource? Are we doing the right things? And also, are there things we should be stopping so we can do these things?' Because there is a finite amount of resource, we all understand that.

These impacts are going to keep accelerating. I don't know, I can't even remember when we've had a year that has started with the number of named storms as many as we've already had. Now, all of us must see this, and we experience it, and we feel it as well, and the citizens are feeling it even more so. And businesses have been impacted, which will eventually impact well-being, and we've got to keep focused on that. We will have to keep coming back to this over the period of the next year or so, and face into this truth.

I want to say clearly the staff at NRW are one of our greatest strengths and assets. They are phenomenal. Over the last few weeks—and I'm talking about since December—some of our staff have only been sleeping for four hours, because they've been out there, making sure that they're helping those people who've been impacted by floods, and doing their absolute best to save whatever they can, and to give them the advice they need, and so on. I said this to you when I appeared before you previously. We have to keep reinforcing the quality of the people we already have in Wales. We've got to encourage them to grow. There is real talent, commitment and professionalism across the whole of the organisation and across all of Wales. My priority, as chair, is to nurture this capability and give those people real confidence and permission to lead. That requires real empowerment, and in some ways, we've got to simplify the amount of control we have over them. This way, we will make sure that NRW plays a full part in providing a solution, not just being a firefighter.

The executive team, under Ceri's leadership, is focused and self-aware, and increasingly challenging how we do things around here, so let's not keep repeating the same things, because some of those things don't work. Let's challenge ourselves and change things, ensuring that our objectives are anchored to our purpose, not siloed or, even worse, hobbied, because a lot of people focus on their little hobby of what's right to do, but we've got to be agile and I'm seeing a lot of agility in this all the way through. The board is united in understanding the scale of the challenge and committed to supporting the organisation through recovery and renewal, and that I have seen in bagfuls. We have got some board members who are very, very good at understanding the subject matter, but also working with our executive and our staff in coaching and mentoring them to make sure that we're doing the right thing.

Since taking up the post, I've spent time with colleagues on the ground, visiting sites like Monmouth where we saw some catastrophic events and Pontypridd where we saw events years before, meeting staff at our offices, attending national events like the Royal Welsh Show, where I met some of you, and also having been to the Eisteddfod in Wrexham—again, I was privileged to meet some of you there—and visiting our woodlands in the south-east. My intention is that, by the end of this year, I'll have visited every single office and spent time with all our colleagues. Seeing the reality on the ground is what matters. I think I said this to you when I came to you last time. I'm a shopkeeper, and the only way we understand things is if you look people in the face and talk to them, and I want to make sure that I take that back to the boardroom to make sure that the decisions we make are going to make an impact for our staff, and make sure that we can help them do their job, so we protect our environment.

I've started Welsh lessons, I'm sorry it's not where it should be, but I promised you I would. I started them privately and I'm very lucky that I've been looped into the National Centre for Learning Welsh, and hopefully they might be able to nudge me along a little bit and next time around, I might be able to speak without having to read the words, but I promise you I shall keep doing that. Our board discussions are open, and a bit like this committee here, we now ensure that every single board meeting is fully bilingual, and we did that from our first meeting when we started. This is because integration into the society we serve is not an optional thing; I'm very clear that it's essential for the people we serve.

We have also taken a significant early decision. This decision includes recommending to Government the designation of a national park, based on clear evidence and careful listening to many, many voices, both for and against, who have contributed to these consultations since 2020. So, it's not a quick, short-term decision—lots of discussion, lots of listening. That approach matters.

Protecting our environment must go hand in hand with enabling sustainable economic and social benefit. We believe in early engagement, enabling first and preventing second, and then possibly regulating where necessary. On the last bit—. This is how we deliver the triple bottom line and all of you will know about this. I think we have to make sure that we deliver the environmental objectives, the social benefits and also the economic benefits, because you can't have well-being without all those three things being aligned.

What we need from you—and I haven't got much longer to go, I promise—what we need more from everyone, really, however, is clarity and alignment. We don't often get that. Climate change is not a one-person job; it's our job. Everybody has to align to this; it's happening. Whether we believe in climate change per se or not, we are seeing the impacts of what is happening, and our society is feeling it immensely in their own lives on a daily basis. We've set this out in our 10 tasks—I think we've circulated this to you previously. I would urge you, as we go through the next three, four, five months, that we all look at this, because these are really important things for all of us. We call it our manifesto for Wales.

NRW is adapting and recovering from past challenges, including issues of capability and resourcing. Part of those have been caused by us, so we're not hiding away from our problems—we're going to face those. New colleagues who are joining us are arriving motivated and very much outcome focused. They're determined to make a difference, but I want to make it absolutely clear that we cannot resolve climate change alone. We will not by ourselves stop flooding, eliminate pollution or prevent wildfires. This requires collective ownership from government, businesses, society acting together every day. Education, support and clear expectations all matter from all corners of Wales.

We will also need firmer tools. Where environmental damage is caused and could have been prevented, there must be a stronger, more timely consequence for those people. Currently, court decisions are taking two, three years, and the fines are not preventing. It's something that we will have to look at. Let's see where we come back to it.

In summary, NRW has incredibly dedicated people, a capable leadership team and it's clear on its purpose. The organisation is stabilising, refocusing and that is what we will keep doing. But the scale of the challenge demands urgency, honesty and long-term thinking beyond annual budget cycles. Most of the stuff we do lasts years, and currently most Government organisations have the same problem: we're constrained by annual budget cycles. You have a stop-start, and you can't do that in infrastructure. I'd urge that we keep looking at this. Chair, thank you very much for allowing me to say this, and I've got colleagues here.

We'll be picking up on a number of the issues that you flagged there, or the areas that you flagged there. You mentioned new people coming on board, et cetera, there. The obvious one is the proposed new chief executive. Can you give us some sort of update on where you're at with that process?

I've tried to handcuff Ceri down so she wouldn't leave, but she does wish to retire, and we wish her well with that. We are hoping to do the final shortlist this afternoon. We'll get on with interviews straight afterwards, and I'm hoping we can get some resolution in February.

Okay, thank you for that clarity, because it's been long awaited, and I'm sure we're all keen for the right choice to be made.

You mentioned the booklet that's been circulated. Obviously, I'm just wondering what—. It feels like a bit of a pitch to the next Government, really, that booklet. What kind of work have you been doing in terms of thinking about, for example, a renewed remit letter, which will need to be issued? Are you looking to update the corporate plan as a reflection, potentially, of changed priorities from the next Government?

I'll certainly ask Rachael and Ceri to come in on that, but, yes, it is a pitch to the new Government. We've got to start focusing on long-term planning, and this is not a single-party issue. The way we've written our 10 manifesto commitments are for every party to look at because we all need to focus on those things, and, yes, our business plans are going to have to be aligned towards these things. Ceri.

We are doing a refresh of our corporate plan to ensure that we're agile and able to respond to the next Government's commitments, and also we're scaling up our support for our staff as well, in that we need to be able to respond quickly to the number of new Members of the Senedd. We need to be able to engage more in the additional scrutiny that will be evident after that. So, there's a lot of work going on at the moment to ensure that we're in the best space possible to do that. We're talking very much with Welsh Government about what the priorities need to be and how we need to resource those, whether they're through grant-in-aid settlements from Welsh Government, but also exploring areas like private finance and green finance to see if there are others who can help in the cause and the mission that Neil referred to that we all need to lean into. So, there's a lot of work going on at the moment. This is the first time we've done a document like this; we felt we needed to be advocating on behalf of the environment and that's what we've aimed to do, and I think we'd be happy to then take those conversations further forward with existing and new Members post the elections in May.

There we are. Okay, diolch yn fawr iawn. Just with reference to the business plan commitments that have been carried over from the last plan, you, I think, predicted eight missed commitments this year. Now, the 'Case for Change' work, of course, is settling down, I hope, now, so what is it that's impacting on the delivery of those commitments and what are you doing to make sure that they're delivered as early as possible?

Okay. Yes, if I can pick that one up. So, yes, as you've recognised, any reorganisation organisationally will impact delivery and we were clear that that was the case and we tried to set that out in a really open and transparent way. Any commitments that were either amber or red at the end of that 2024-25 financial year were therefore carried over and baked into our business plan for this year, and what I'm really pleased to say is that we'd sort of predicted how soon we'd be able to turn some of those things around and, actually, we're seeing the turnaround is a lot quicker than we'd originally anticipated. So, out of the ambers and reds, if I focus on those, five of last year's ambers have become green already through quarters one and two and six remain amber, and then the red turned to amber, so we are very much seeing the improvements that we wanted to see. But we're being realistic, you know; we need to make sure that these are proper, sustainable changes and improvements. So, yes, hopefully that gives you a flavour of the improvements we're seeing.

Our recruitment teams have dealt with over 1,000 vacancies, because, as you know, in the 'Case for Change' we tried to ensure that we protected permanent jobs in Wales. So, we held back on recruitment; we had recruitment controls. They've dealt with over 1,000 vacancies since we removed those recruitment controls, and that's what's starting to see now. We've also brought in some new systems, a new e-recruitment system, which means that we can be much slicker—so, again, relating back to what Neil has said around freeing up our staff to do the job on the ground that we need them to do.

Okay, thank you. Joyce, did you want to come in on this?

Yes. First of all, I want to congratulate you on the booklet; it's an easy read with a serious message, and that's not an easy achievement in itself. But my question is this: you're right to identify that it's everybody's issue and everybody's being affected by it, but there are lots of organisations doing their constituent part, and you're but one of them. So, my question is: how do you liaise with them, how often do you liaise with them and take on board their expertise that you may not have, so that we can move, collectively, forward?

Just as a bit of an introduction on that—that's a really, really good question—we're not going to do this on our own and we can't be an island. One of the things we are talking to—. So, even yesterday, I spoke to Future Generations Wales and said, 'Look, what is it that we need to do together?' And we're going to announce our new 'The State of Natural Resources Report' in the next two weeks or so; that starts joining organisations up. I've spoken to Welsh Water, and am talking to them on a regular basis—what's the part they've got to do—attending things like the Royal Welsh and speaking to the farming community and saying, 'Look, how do we work together? We can't just be a regulator; there are things we need to help you with.' So, I think we've got to start the process of bringing people together and we've got to use not only our convening powers but also our supporting powers and say, 'How can we help you to do the right thing?' Regulating is the last bit of all of this; we have to do a little bit more before that.

Before you come in, Carolyn, would you like to make a point? Then maybe, Ceri, you can respond, and then we'll move on to Delyth.

Just a quick supplementary on that. In the past, we've had issues with NRW, Dŵr Cymru Welsh Water and the local authorities working together regarding phosphates and flooding, where they passed the buck, and I recently spoke to an NRW officer regarding ensuring that landowners and others—. When they have their own drains and everything, to make sure that they know they're responsible for them—it's not the council, it's them—and try and work together. And the person I spoke with said, 'Well, we're actually just in charge of rivers under riparian law. Local drainage systems are the council, it's not us.' So, I think there's still work to be done there, going forward. That was just a point I wanted to make, thank you.

It's so true and it's what I said last time, and I think people have talked about it—we need team Wales to work on this; it can't be just one individual. But, Ceri.

Absolutely. Yes, and I think what I would say is that the marine special areas of conservation work that we've done I think is a really good demonstrator of where we've got a particular role and responsibility around looking at the environment and saying whether or not it's meeting the required standards, but that's not where our role ends. Our role then moves into how do we work with those local authorities who then have restrictions in place, to help them to deal with that impact, manage that impact, but still allow for economic development, sustainable economic development, to happen. So, what we are doing very much is saying, 'Okay, so we've done our statutory responsibility, but now we move into the convening, the advice and guidance, and the work that needs to be done to support those others to help them to deliver.'

What I would say in terms of the initial question, Joyce, is that one of the things that I've focused on, and so has Neil since joining us, is making sure that we've got really good lines of communication open with all of those people who need to lean in to be able to develop this joint, team Wales approach. We've got very many stakeholder groups that we meet with regularly so that we can ensure that we are hearing what they need from us and we can say what we need from them. And I have made a point over the last year of making sure that I'm meeting with the farming unions frequently, that I'm meeting with land managers, that I'm meeting with industry representatives, to ensure that we're keeping those lines of communications open. Because, as Neil said, the first place is about enabling and convening people to do the right thing. And I think sometimes people look at NRW as just a regulator, and we are just so much more than a regulator. We are there to provide advice and guidance, to give support to do the right things. And then, as Neil said, if that's ignored, then we can come in with our regulatory activities. So, just to give you some assurance around that.

Okay. Diolch yn fawr. Delyth.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. Bore da. I wanted, firstly, actually, as well, to commend you on this. I can only imagine how many people will have been working behind the scenes to put this together. It's a really beautifully produced piece of work. I agree with what Joyce said: it sets things out really clearly. Please, could you pass on our thanks and commendation to the people who've worked on this? It's a really good piece of work.

Yes, we will do. Thank you.

I want to ask you some questions on the budget, please. I'm struck by the fact that you had said earlier, Neil, that, increasingly, there's more and more of a proportion of the spend that has to go on responding to emergencies. But, presumably, that's not a sustainable situation. I wanted to ask you whether NRW is in a position now to deliver its core functions and statutory obligations fully, but also to what extent what Neil had said there affects that.

So, if I could start off, and perhaps Neil and Rachael can add. When we were looking at the 'Case for Change', we were in quite a difficult spot. I think we were quite honest with you last year around how impactful those changes and moving away from some delivery were in terms of where we'd been previously and what we wanted to do for the future, particularly around connecting the public with nature to make sure that we all do the right things as citizens.

Having said that, when we got part way through implementing the 'Case for Change', we did make cases to the Welsh Government around areas that we were particularly concerned about: so, areas like biodiversity and conservation, water quality, flood risk management and our evidence and monitoring, which are the real bedrock, if you like, of environmental performance in Wales. And, thankfully, Welsh Government, through better settlements from the UK Government, were able to put some of that investment into NRW.

So, we received an additional £25 million—some for some specific work that they wanted us to do, like work on infrastructure for renewables and making sure that we could deal with the move to net zero carbon. So, that has stood us in much better stead; that has really helped us. We did also enjoy, out of that £25 million, an extra £4 million for those critical services that we were worried about: water quality, flood, biodiversity and conservation. That has stood us in much better stead at the moment. But we are really clear—and you will have received the Audit Wales report around sites of special scientific interest designation—that we need to be doing more. We need to be doing more if we're going to meet the 30x30 target. So, what we'll be doing now is working with the Welsh Government around those areas where we can do things differently so that we're investing in those areas ourselves, but also where we might need further investment from Welsh Government to ensure that we are doing what they want us to do to the level that we need to do it. So, I would say that we're in much better shape, but there's still more work to be done on some key areas like monitoring, biodiversity and water quality. We've recently had support from Welsh Government. The additional funding they've given us for water quality compliance is being baselined, so that is helping us to go out there and make sure that we're doing the right regulatory role. So, that's where we are at the moment.

Thank you ever so much. Before I move on, was there anything that either of you wanted to add to that?

No, not really.

It was comprehensive.

Yes, it was pretty comprehensive, actually.

Only come in when there is something to say, because we've only got an hour and a half.

Yes. The one thing that we've got to be really clear about is that investment on capital is what we are going to have to get better at, but we need to—. It's what I said earlier, in my introduction: you can't have capital given to us in January to spend by March. We just can't do it. So, we need a five-year plan on this.

Okay. On a related point, in a way, could you provide us with details, please, on how the £17 million increase in the 2025-26 grant-in-aid budget, how that has been spent, and how that is translating into actual environmental effects, please?

Okay. So, for 2025-26—Ceri mentioned the money that we got, the extra money, which was the £25 million. She's covered a few of the things already, but I'll just recap, if that's okay. So, we had £4 million that was baselined in GIA. So, that's broken down as £600,000 for biodiversity, which is around protected site regulatory guidance and advice, including LMAs, which are the land management agreements; we had £500,000 for water quality, and that was put to improving water company performance, improving stakeholder awareness and participation in understanding the water environment; we had £1.1 million for flood risk, which was around catchment approaches and community engagement and further use of our facilitator role in multi-benefit water interventions; we put £800,000 to evidence monitoring, and that was around how we used our data and data management and investment in our water-quality monitoring; and then we had £1 million, which we put to business transformation and things like our recruitment system, which Ceri's mentioned, our learning management system, looking at how we do our customer platform work and our customer relationship management work, and also just other technological advances around how we deliver our corporate plan.

And then we had our grants, which were on top of that. Again, Ceri's mentioned a couple of these. So, £5 million was for the Infrastructure (Wales) Act 2024 and how we get ready for that; we've got £2.7 million that we had for marine, which was developing an ICT customer platform to do the end-to-end marine licensing system; water enforcement funding, which, again, Ceri's mentioned, which is going to be baselined next year, which is great; sustainable farming, getting ready for that, which was £1 million; and then waste, which was £4.3 million.

That's very comprehensive. Thank you ever so much.

Sorry, I can—

No, that's very useful.

I can give you more if you want it.

No, thank you ever so much. Thank you. The final issue I wanted to raise was to find out more about how things are going in terms of repaying the HMRC settlement, where the savings are being found, and if you could reassure us that that isn't having an effect on exactly what you were talking about earlier, about the delivery of front-line, core services.

Okay. So, as you'll be aware, the final bill came to £14.6 million, and obviously Welsh Government provided the budget for that, and we've come to an arrangement with them where we will have a budget reduction each year now for the next 10 years of £1.46 million. So, that was the plan. In 2024-25, we actually managed to pay more than that. We paid £4.4 million off that figure, which was a mixture of savings that we'd made through the year. We didn't have as many redundancies through the 'Case for Change', and we put money towards that that we didn't need, and also we had underspends in salaries because of the 'Case for Change' et cetera. So, we were able to pay a bit more off than that.

In terms of 2025-26, we've built that £1.46 million reduction into the plan, and we knew about it early, so we were able to plan for it in advance. It is only 0.5 per cent of our overall budget, so it's not—. It's a big amount of money, but we are able to manage that. Our aim is to use, wherever possible, any efficiencies that we're making to pay that back first, and things like—. We've moved our offices, you'll be aware, from Newport Road to Cathays Park, so we're now in the Welsh Government building. That has saved over £0.5 million a year in annual rent, so that's a big saving that we're putting towards it. We've made savings through some of our IT work that we've been doing, which, again, we're putting towards it. Also, we are absorbing inflationary pressures as much as possible, and actually that's about £1 million a year at the moment, so that's quite significant. So, that's our aim. We've baked it into our plans, so it's not affecting at the moment because we're using those savings. Our aim is to repay it as soon as we possibly can, because, obviously, the longer it goes on, that's not ideal, and, basically, we're in discussion with Welsh Government at the moment about how we potentially could do that with any underspends that we have.

That's useful. Thank you. And finally, we're aware of the review that's identifying any lessons learned from that investigation. Could you give us any update on that, particularly when it's likely to conclude?

We're just in the process of concluding that lessons-learned work now, and we've used our internal audit service to provide that for us. But, also, that's been overseen by the Welsh Government internal audit service, so that we could have a level of independence and to ensure that there was good scrutiny of the lessons learned that we've done. So, we will be writing to you shortly with the outcome of that, so that you can see the main recommendations and how we are taking those forward. A lot of the lessons that have been identified, we've already implemented. So, you know that we will have been under enhanced monitoring with the Welsh Government. That started as a result of some of the findings from IR35, and we've worked really hard to really improve our risk management, our governance, to ensure that we're being really clear about issues like IR35, and we've looked across the organisation to flag up any other issues as well. We've also taken part in the self-assessment monitoring Wales pilot to help the development of that—it emanated from the Cabinet Office but is being adapted by the Welsh Government for Wales—so that we can build in some of those improvements we've made. We submitted our response to that just before Christmas. So, there's a lot that we've done to ensure that we won't be in that position again, that we flag early if there's an issue, that we challenge it, and that we make sure that we're on top of managing and mitigating that. But we will share those lessons learned really shortly with you.

Thank you ever so much. Diolch. Thank you.

Thank you. One thing that has been bandied about a little bit in relation to the HMRC stuff is that, well, if you can absorb this into your budget, then why did you need it in the first place in terms of that level of budget? Now, you've made a very strong case about the savings that you've accrued in order to absorb that, but does that not suggest that once the £14.6 million is paid off, that £1.46 million could go back to the Welsh Treasury because, as you say, no specific reductions to services were required?

Well, no. We would want to invest that money in those things that I've said already that we know—

I had to ask the question, because—

Yes, I know. I know.

I think that's a really fair question to ask.

Yes, absolutely.

I think it goes back to the earlier question, which is like: is this having a detrimental effect on our service? No, I think it's stopping us investing more. So, what we want to do is get back to that place.

Yes. That's the point. Okay. Diolch yn fawr. Julie.

Diolch. Bore da. Good to see you again. We've had previous discussion about the visitor centres, so I wondered if you could tell us what the present situation is with the three visitor centres that were affected and what your plans are for them.

Yes, okay, I will do. First of all, I think what I would say is that we've got a really clear vision about what we want those visitor centres to be about, and that's really about connecting people with nature, supporting local economies, delivering environmental benefits and ensuring that the sites remain protected and managed to the highest standards. That's our bedrock, if you like, of what we're trying to achieve with those visitor centres.

If I take them each in turn, in terms of the Borth Community Hub, which is now running the Ynyslas visitor centre, I think that's been a real success story, because what it has done is moved into a position whereby, through a community management agreement now, it’s supporting local stewardship and community-led initiatives, and there are now activities, workshops, a food and drink offer. It’s becoming a really vibrant centre, and we are very much there doing the land management work that needs to be done, because it’s on an national nature reserve and that area needs to be protected. But I think what we are doing is working really closely with the community about what they see being delivered through that. So, taking that learning, and also making sure that we progress with pace, because, I think, last year you said, 'You need to get on with it', and we’ve been getting on with it.

For the other two sites, Bwlch Nant yr Arian and Coed y Brenin, in October, we ran open day opportunities for prospective interested parties to come in and have a look and see and develop up a bit of a vision, with our vision, that they could come forward with. So, that was really well received, and we had a great deal of interest in those October sessions. And then, in November, we went out to market. So, that’s out there and available. The first phase of that closes later on this month, and we’ve tried to position it so that we’re interested in all offers, whether it be local community, micro-scale organisations, right through to big players. We’re really clear about the vision and what we’re trying to achieve.

So, our aim is to try to get an agreed partner early on in the summer of this year, later on this year, so that we can ensure that we are supporting them to develop up those centres, so that they deliver on both their vision and our vision. It will depend on what they come forward with. We’ve made it really clear that we’re open to offers around whether there’s more land that we run and manage that’s needed, whether there are more buildings, more development that’s needed. We are really trying to be as open as we can, because what we really want to do is support those local communities, the economy and the environment to all thrive in those areas.

So, that’s how that’s going. In the meantime, again, I need to be really, really clear that all the paths, the trails, the car parks, the toilets, are all open, they’re all running as normal and the land is being managed for the environment in the way that it needs to be by NRW. At Bwlch Nant yr Arian, we’ve managed to attract a local charity to provide food and drink onsite, and we’re looking, still, for the same offer at Coed y Brenin. So, we’re being really proactive. We’re moving with pace, but we’re trying to get something that’s both what we want and what the community wants as well.

So, in terms of what you’re asking organisations to come in and do, is that the central thing—that they are going to be helping people connect with nature? Is that the key thing, or what is the commercial element in this?

It’s both of those things. What we want is for those facilities to continue to connect people with nature, because they are special sites in Wales and we need to ensure that that’s the case. But we also recognise that they need to be financially sustainable, because, otherwise, they won’t last, and we are looking for a long-term commitment. So, we will be looking at both of those things, to ensure that they’re both baked into what comes out of the marketing exercise.

So, you would see food and drink as something that could subsidise nature work.

Yes. The activities that we’ve got at the moment—the car parks, for example—they help to support the land management activities that we do. So, we would be looking to see that we can make sure that those centres are on a sustainable financial footing. But we have statutory duties, particularly in places like the Dyfi. So, it won’t only be what happens with the visitor centre; it will be our own resource that’s going into making sure that the right land management activities are being undertaken there, funded through grant in aid, or charging schemes, or whatever.

So, are you confident you will get suitable organisations?

Well, so far, the interest has been really positive. The events in October were positive. And we're not just sitting back and waiting; we're being really proactive. We've got land agents working with us to try and ensure that the market is informed and stimulated. So, we are being proactive on this.

And what about in the meantime? What about visitor numbers? How have the closures impacted on the operation of the sites?

The operation of the sites is continuing, particularly at Bwlch Nant yr Arian, where we also have food and drink available through a charity. Visitor numbers remain as they were, and we're very much giving the message that these sites are open. They are open—the trails are open, the walks are open, the car parks, the toilets. So, we're trying to ensure that we continue to market that these sites are very much open.

Right. And you haven't seen a fall-off in numbers?

Not that I'm aware of. I will make sure I check and give you the actual figures when we get back to the office.

Thank you.

Thank you. Obviously, this is something we were very concerned about in the committee, so it's good that there is progress going on.

Thank you.

Right, Neil, I think we have covered this a bit already, that you said the change required hasn't really happened at NRW. So, are you planning any other follow-up in terms of a strategic review or some other formal proposals about how you move forward?

I'm not sure if I said 'change hasn't happened.' Change is happening, but it's a distraction because, when we went through the big change after the need for change and all that, it created a morale issue—we stopped recruiting people. So, there's a little bit about picking up pace more than anything else.

I don't think the strategic direction of NRW needs a review, because I think you can review things to death otherwise. The key thing is to make sure we've got a business plan, we've got a set of priorities. Let's just start delivering those, and the way our finances are now, we should be able to do that. And I think that is where we want to hold ourselves to account on and say, 'Can we deliver what we've got in our business plan?' We talked earlier about our scorecard. The scorecard was heading towards amber to red. The team have done an amazing job to get us back onto trying to deliver that. I don't expect the whole scorecard to be green by the end of the year. If it was, the targets were too soft. So, we expect some of the stretch to be there. So, I would expect us to keep going. Will we do a review on the strategy? Climate change is happening so fast we'd be daft to stand still. So, of course we'll have to look at it at some stage. But I'm not going to say I'm going to do that in the next year.

Right. And what about the well-being of the staff? Have you got any up-to-date evidence about—?

I think we've had some feedback recently, haven't we?

We have had feedback and our plans are, as we've done in the past, to undertake staff surveys so that we can get more evidence around the things that they're happy with and the things that are causing concern. I think one of the things that I would add to what Neil said is that when we went into the 'Case for Change', we were really clear that we didn't want to be doing this frequently, this organisational-scale change. But we do need to remain agile, we do need to be able to be responsive to changing priorities and, as Neil has said, we're seeing the impacts of climate change and responding to those. So, we have put in place practical measures to ensure that we remain agile, that we're looking for continuous improvement and innovation in the way we work. And one of the reviews that we undertook, post 'Case for Change', was around the burdens that we put on staff—again, Neil referred to this in the beginning—about how we free up our staff to do the job that we've employed them to do. So, we have looked at our corporate and enabling services to make sure that when we require people to do things around risk management and governance, that they're simple straightforward and proportionate and pragmatic. So, there's a lot that we can gain through making sure that we're testing ourselves about the processes that we're putting on our staff that hold them back from doing the jobs we've employed them to do.

So, there is work still to be done and implemented, and we will continue to do that, but it'll be more in an agile, continuous improvement approach rather than these stop-start, big change programmes that then have an impact on delivery. The clear message I've been given all year is we've got to get into the delivery. Delivery has to be our keyword. We need to be responding quickly, delivering quickly and demonstrating that.

Julie, just to add to that, I've been around and spoken to our staff and, I guess, in some ways, that's a good barometer, because I'm new and I can just listen to them fairly openly. They are incredibly positive about what they do. They want to do the right thing. The change that we went through has demotivated them. And it always does, because there was an axe hanging over everybody for a long period of time; they didn't know whose job was going to go. They've now got certainty, so the morale is starting to rise. There's one example I was sharing with colleagues this morning on one of the sites I visited only two or three weeks ago. We took on a mature apprentice about six years ago. He's now a supervisor. The amount of commitment he's got towards NRW and the cause is just phenomenal. And they all want to get out and do the right job.

But the stop-start isn't where we want to be. We've got to have a continuous plan of delivery. And if we do that, I think our staff morale will stay—. Their well-being will be in the right place. And equally, we'll see productivity go up, and that's also important. Because they all say that the stop-start and the added processes that come with it stop them doing their day job, and we've got to keep doing that, and that's where we need to stay focused. But I'm going to avoid doing review after review unless there's a reason for doing it.

Obviously, this was traumatic for them, wasn't it?

It was incredibly so.

I just wanted to be sure you are responding to that.

Yes, we are.

Absolutely, and we've undertaken—. We've brought in local partnerships to do an independent review for us of lessons learned. As we've said, we don't want to be doing these stop-start organisational change programmes, but we do need to learn from it. Because we tried to do it quickly so that we gave people back control around whether their jobs were affected and how they fitted into the organisation moving forward, but with that comes the downside of how people feel. So, we are learning those lessons. Local partnerships have come in and done an independent review for us. And we will be building those lessons now into how we improve how we work with our staff moving forward.

Okay. Thank you. I'm just mindful that we're over halfway through and we're nowhere near halfway through the areas that we wish to cover; that's just for us to keep in mind—all of us, not just yourselves. So, we'll move next to Joyce.

I'm going to ask you about the water industry reform and how you're assessing the impact of the Independent Water Commission report recommendations on your organisation and whether you have concerns about any of those recommended changes to your functions.

Okay. Thank you. So, we very much welcomed the Independent Water Commission, and we had—I think I might have mentioned last time—very many sessions with Sir Jon Cunliffe to make sure that we were sharing with him some of our concerns that we would want to have been built in. So, you know, I think there's no secret about the fact that the legislation, for example, has developed up over many years and there does need to be a rationalisation there to make it simple and clearer around what it is that we're all trying to deliver for the water environment in Wales.

So, we welcomed all of the recommendations. I think the area that we're working—. We're working with Welsh Government on all of the areas, clearly, as they move to preparing a Green Paper. And in that, we're looking at what we can do to help to ensure that what we end up with in Wales is really good for Wales, but also what does that mean for the functions that we deliver statutorily in Wales within NRW.

We supported the decision of the Welsh Government that the economic regulator is best outside of NRW, because I think our prime purpose is about sustainable management and natural resources, and one of the concerns we had was if you then had an economic regulation function, how do those two things sit together? We think it's better for us to be working very closely with an economic regulator, but strongly advocating for the environment and sustainable management and natural resources.

The area where there's more work to be done and will be being done over the next number of months and years is around the system planner role. Because we've got many strategic environmental planners within NRW to try and ensure that we're delivering the regulations that are there and looking for improvements in water quality in Wales, so there will be some overlap there. But our understanding is that what Welsh Government are looking for is new work to be done, not taking away work that's already done within NRW.

So, I think the main thing for us is about ensuring that there's real clarity about our statutory duties and roles and making sure we work with whatever is put in place for the system planner and economic regulator, to ensure that we have really good, joined-up regulation, not that it looks like as if one is competing with another. So, that's the main area, I think, Joyce, that we're looking to work on with the Welsh Government over the next number of months.

That's great. But this is also—. In a backdrop, everything has its backdrop, doesn't it—Dŵr Cymru, at the moment, are rationalising and slimlining their workforce. If there's one area that we're all very aware of is the need for water, and the need also to reduce the impact of too much water at the same time. So, do you, in your discussions, have any concerns about Dŵr Cymru's position, because it clearly would have an impact if there were any concerns, going forward? And if you've had discussions, have you been reassured that it's going to be okay?

So, one of the things that I would say, and it harks back to an earlier question about how much do we engage with others—just this week, the two executive teams met between Welsh Water and ourselves, and we've made a commitment to meet with them quarterly, over the period that they're going through their transformations, so that we can be assured, and work with them and learn from them about the changes that they're making. The way that discussions have gone so far is that they, like ourselves, are trying to focus in on their front-line activities. They're looking at their back-office services—I know that's not a nice term to use—to make sure that they are investing in where they can make the biggest difference. So, we are working really closely with them, Joyce.

As you know, we have had concerns for some time about their environmental performance. The good news is that we did secure with Welsh Water, and through Ofwat, a record settlement of investment for this AMP period, this asset-management period, going forward. What we're also doing is the normal day-to-day job with Welsh Water about how they spend that money to ensure that they remain on programme and delivering the spend, which is necessary to improve their environmental performance. So, there are three strands to the work: there's the delivery of the investment; there's us working with them quite closely around their transformation, to ensure that we are assured that they are focusing on the right things from an environmental perspective; and then there's planning for the next price review period—I know we've just finished one, but we are already starting the next one, because that has to be delivered in 2029, ready for the period 2030 to 2035. That will be done before the changes to the Independent Water Commission are implemented. So, we'll be running that in parallel to make sure that the job is done properly.

If there's one area that demonstrates the need to work together, it's this.

Yes, absolutely.

The land management, the water management, the investment, and the need also for the consideration of the changing environment we're in. We'll be suffering floods—well, we are suffering floods—and there's heavy rain forecast tomorrow. We don't seem to be capturing the water when it falls, or storing it in a way that we might, but come, probably, July, we'll be looking at a drought situation, and it impacts on the farmers trying to produce the food, which means we could go hungry, but it also impacts on the rivers and gives a greater concentration for those nutrients to go round again. So, my question is this: in those discussions that you're having—and we know we've got a new water regulator you're working alongside, but you've got to fit in, and yours is about the environment—how satisfied are you that your voice is being heard in the first place and that you have appropriate room to deliver against your remit, which is some of those things I've just mentioned?

Okay. In short, because I know time is short, we are satisfied that our voice is being heard. We are working very closely with Welsh Government, with Welsh Water, Ofwat and Hafren Dyfrdwy, to make sure that we are all working on this together, to ensure that we end up with a model for Wales that works for Wales. We've also seconded staff to Welsh Government, to have them embedded in the work that's being done on the Green Paper, so that they can be on the front line, if you like, of ensuring that what we have to do statutorily is built into the programme. So, we are assured.

Okay. Thank you. Time is against us, I'm afraid. Janet, you wanted to come in briefly on—

Yes. Bore da. Croeso. A quick one: a couple of weeks ago, it came to my attention that there is no monitoring whatsoever going on of microplastics in rivers. The Minister's response was very much that he's going to work with you. Are you aware that you're not monitoring, or Dŵr Cymru—that no-one's monitoring any microplastics in rivers? So, are you going to start?

Do you want me to pick that one up? So, we do what I would call campaigns around things like this, and we work with others as well—citizen scientists and universities in Wales and elsewhere—to pick up on specific issues. The focus for our monitoring programmes are more led by the statutory requirements, and that's not included within it. But having said that, as part of the additional funding that we've had from Welsh Government around evidence and monitoring, we will be looking at those parameters. Part of the review in the infrastructure is around making sure that we're looking at what needs to be the parameters for water quality going forward, not just the ones that historically were a problem. So, yes, we will be picking that up and looking at it.

Thank you.

Thank you for that. Right, we'll have to move on, I'm afraid, because time is against us.

Right. It's flooding now. Can you outline any investment made in the flood warning service since storms Bert and Darragh? What technical changes have resulted from this investment, and how have they been applied to floods, not just this winter, but going forward?

We've made various different investments, so I'll just run through the different types. So, in terms of our detecting, we're about to launch a new telemetry system for Wales, which is a £6 million multi-year project that's been going for a couple of years now. This is about upgrading the 600 field outstations that we have that detect different levels of water, whether it be rainfall, river levels, sea levels and groundwater. Previously, these were based on detectors that sat there and were linked with phone lines into a server in a building.

I've seen them. They're impressive.

They're now cloud-based and they're now on the 4G and 5G network. So, they are a completely different type of technology—far, far better than what we've ever had before. So, that will improve resilience and improve reliability of that information coming in. So, that's one investment that we've made.

We've also got, and I think we've mentioned this before, our flood warning system, which we launched in 2024. Again, this was a massive step forward for us in terms of how we warn and inform people across Wales. This means that we're able to send e-mails, send voice messages and text messages to those people signed up for those warnings.

We've taken the learnings from flooding—the recent storms in the last couple of years—and we've updated the thresholds at which we do our warnings, basically. So, that now looks at impact-based thresholds at all locations. We've also looked at the triggers at which we start engaging with local services and our local resilience forums. Now, we are engaging them much earlier in terms of—. Rather than when things are likely to happen, if there are any implications or any idea that there's going to be something happening, then we will engage much earlier with them.

In terms of forecasting, we use our models. We've updated models in Dinas Powys, in Cadoxton, the upper Wye in Powys and the upper Monnow in Monmouthshire. We've updated our current models with the learnings and the information that we've had from the recent storms, and those have been updated. What we do need to do, though, is invest in new models, to create more extensive coverage across—

Will there be some inclusion of those up in north Wales, because we've seen so much flooding?

Absolutely, yes. That will require more investment.

Of course. But is that likely to be sooner or later?

We're going to be putting it in our bid for the next couple of years in terms of Welsh Government and what we want to do.

It's really needed—as soon as possible, really. Also, I'm really impressed with the new warnings that I get. I get them practically every hour. The warning's on, it's off—it's pretty effective. But what about people on lower incomes who might not have a decent mobile phone, or indeed those households that are digitally excluded? How are they able to be just as included in the warning service as I am?

Do you want me to pick up on that? I think the important thing is, because we need—. We can warn and warn, but what we need is then a response, if you like, from those who are most at risk in terms of knowing and understanding what they need to do. One of the things that we did earlier on this year when we launched the Stephenson Street flood alleviation scheme—which was a massive scheme, a £25 million scheme in Newport—was we launched 'Be Flood Ready'. We do that through broadcast media, very much to ensure that we're not not giving messages to those people who may not have smartphones and access to the internet, and all the rest of it.

They were really simple messages about checking the postcode, signing up for flood warnings through the telephone system, and then knowing what to do when we do issue warnings. Because sometimes we issue alerts and what we've been finding is that people are waiting for the warning, which is flooding is expected to happen, before taking action. So, there's clearly a piece of work that we need to do with communities at risk to ensure that they act on the alert, not wait for the warning.

But having said that, I think there is a huge amount of investment that we're also doing around reaching out to other platforms as well. We're investing in the accuracy, because the other area that we need to be constantly looking at is that we don't warn and warn and nothing happens, and then the next time we warn people don't respond. So, we're working with the Met Office, with the Flood Forecasting Centre, with the Scottish Environment Protection Agency, our equivalents in Scotland, and the Environment Agency in England to look at how do we improve the accuracy of both the weather forecasts and the warnings, so that when we do warn, there are impacts, so that people know that when we warn, they need to act. So, there's a wide range of work that we're doing around that.

That's it, really.

Okay, thank you. Carolyn.

Can I just ask, because we've talked about flooding, about nature-based solutions going forward? So, continuous cover forestry rather than clear felling on your land. I'm hoping that there's a move now to do that. Peatland restoration on the uplands, seagrass, and the licensed—we're waiting for this—introduction of beavers. We want to see that happen as soon as possible on your land as well.

Nature-based solutions absolutely are a key part. I think as Joyce mentioned earlier, they're also for holding back the water so that we can use it in times when there's water scarcity for land management and agriculture. So, it's very much a part of the work that we're doing. We've got a number of catchment trials under way at the moment, working with others on the Monnow, and working on the Taff, to look at how do you look at the whole catchment, and then look to bring in nature-based solutions that will help to take the peak off some of the flows. They won't be the answer to everything, but they will be the answer with a collection of other tools to ensure that we're making the best use of the environment to help protect us from these events. That is a priority for us. It's part of the Welsh Government strategy. And again, as Rachael has mentioned, we build those into our bids to the Welsh Government for funding and expenditure in future.

Thank you. What changes have been made following the biodiversity deep-dive recommendation to ensure protected sites are a priority for NRW through corporate and future strategies and adequate funding? And how are you bringing people with you, including public bodies, regarding biodiversity? Very often, public bodies will look at carbon reduction and climate change, renewable energy, but they forget that we need to protect nature as well. I know that's a big question.

There's a lot that we're doing around this. As you know, we've got a corporate commitment that is around 'nature is recovering', and that's one of our three well-being objectives within the corporate plan. We mentioned earlier that we keep refreshing and looking to make sure that we're doing the most important things to deliver against those well-being objectives.

As I mentioned earlier, we successfully bid for and gained additional funding for biodiversity and conservation, which we have put into place to look at our designated site work, but also to help us to improve our understanding of the quality of the sites that are already designated and the management actions, and whether they are effective. Because we need to designate—that's a statutory requirement—and we need to increase that level of designation, but we also need to ensure that they're at the right standard, and that they're kept at the right standard with the right management actions. That additional funding has been ring-fenced and put into that work.

One of the first steps is that we've developed a new terrestrial monitoring framework to help us with the evidence base for where we are at the moment, where we need to be and how we achieve those outcomes moving forward. The money has gone on supporting additional notification and management of sites of special scientific interest, supporting the new Naturfa sites—these are the other areas of nature as part of the 30x30 commitment—building capacity and support through land management agreements so that we're helping to support land managers to do the right things for those SSSIs that are not on our land or under our control, strengthening our own teams, the specialisms and the advice and support that's available to our own staff and others, and making sure that we're really trying to accelerate the work.

As I said earlier, I think there is more for us to do around that, and I think there's more of a discussion that needs to be had with the Welsh Government about priorities and potentially investment in the future, but also, I think, as we mentioned earlier, using our commercial strategy to help us identify whether there's private and green finance out there that can help us. We've done a lot to try to improve, but we know there's more to be done, and we need to be doing more.

Do you think that helps address the Audit Wales report into SSSIs? They said that staff capacity constraints, gaps in key data and fragmented digital systems are holding NRW back. Should that help respond?

Absolutely it will, and that will form the basis, if you like, of our review of what do we need to be doing, what's our strategic approach and what investment and support do we need to be able to deliver that as quickly as possible. We really welcome the Audit Wales report. We didn't take it in any sort of defensive way. It's good to have somebody with fresh eyes looking at the work that we do. We have spent a fair amount of money on doing practical improvements on the ground using our nature and climate emergencies funding mechanism to do practical things on the ground like removing fish barriers and doing river restoration and habitat improvement, and also metal mine remediation, because all of these things impact on nature. But I think it was quite clear that we'd taken our eye off the ball on the designation and the importance of that.

We have done some designations. The ones that we've done more recently—you'll have seen them in the news—have been much bigger scale, aiming to do that on a much larger scale, so maybe fewer of them in number, but covering a much wider scale. On the Dyfi and at Llangynidr, the top of the Heads of the Valleys, they are considerable tracts of land. With that comes sometimes challenge around the conditions that we then put on the management of that land. But we're really clear it's an important tool in the toolbox and we need to use it, and we will be using the Audit Wales report to ensure that we drive improvements in that.

In preparing for new domestic biodiversity targets and monitoring capacity, are staff able to actually go out and do site visits now, do you think?

Some of the work that we've done to try to—. We've got groups of people in our organisation, our environment officers, that are really our front-line people out and about on the ground. Some of the investment that we talked about earlier—the additional water quality compliance investment, for example—is all helping to improve the funding for those environment officers who are out and about there doing the biodiversity work, the water quality work and our front-line regulatory activities. There is more that we're investing into those. We are aiming to use the additional funding to ensure that we protect that service, if you like, to ensure that we can do that.

We're working really closely with the Welsh Government on the Bill development, to ensure that it picks up what we need, and looking at our statutory duties and anything that will help in the delivery of those statutory duties. What we've been really clear of is that future targets, for example, need to help address things like skills shortages and capacity, as well as setting stretching targets. We are working really closely with them, and we will continue to do so through the passage of the Bill on that.

Joyce wants to come in briefly on this.

It's great, isn't it, to think that everybody is on the same page, but they're not. There have to be consequences for the repeat offenders, and there are plenty. That's why the rivers are in the state that they're in. As a monitoring body, how satisfied are you that the consequences for repeat offenders are sufficient? Because we've had evidence to say that polluters build it into their business plan, because they're not doing the job we hoped they might do when everything else has been put in place, and they've had all the help, advice and more. We've got to stop it, and we've got to hit hard, in my opinion, where we need to.

And money needs to come to Wales.

It's something I said in my introduction. I genuinely fear that there are a large number of organisations—. Sadly they're big ones, they're not the smaller ones. Most of the small people we deal with are actually abiding and doing everything they can; even though they've got a small amount of resource, they're doing it. Others do just include it as part of their budget; it's a cost of doing business. No, it isn't. It's damage to our environment.

It's a conversation that's been live over the last two or three days with the team, because you all know we have two incidents in the last three weeks where we've had some significant pollution happen in our rivers. Unfortunately, we do need Westminster to come along on this, because it's a Ministry of Justice issue, because I don't think fines are enough. This should be a criminal event, and I would urge us to start thinking about how do we make this a criminal issue. Because we can't wait for two years of court action to get a £1,000 fine out of people. So, we're with you on that, and we'd urge for support on this.

Thank you. Carolyn.

We've got a cross-party group on littering and fly-tipping, and we're saying that as well. Fines aren't enough, because they just build it into their—.

Just on the fly-tipping, I think these things are really important, but I think we as an organisation and as Government have got to make sure that there are options for these people to get rid of their rubbish easily, because that's the argument we get back when I talk to them. They say, 'Well, you make it really hard for me to get rid of some of these things.' So, I think there's a bit about working on both of those, but if they fail and they abuse the privileges they have, then I think we should hit them hard.

Ceri, earlier you were saying that you've had this extra funding and it's making a difference, so it sounds like, if you have the money, you're able to deliver. In the River Alyn, there's been some improvements there, and I can't remember the name of the programme, I was trying to look it up, I think it's called River LIFE, or something like that, which has made—

The LIFE programme.

The LIFE programme, thank you, which is really making a difference. That's something that we need to consider going forward with budgets as well.

During our 2024 biodiversity inquiry, we heard that NRW's budget for section 16 land management agreements had been cut. What's the situation now regarding that?

I can take that. In 2025-26, our budget for these land management agreements was £1.2 million, and that included an additional £400,000 from the Welsh Government, which we were given. So, that's really good. With that, we're protecting about 300 sites across Wales with about 134 renewals, extensions and new LMAs being granted. That's really positive. We also use capital money through our Nature Networks programme, and again for 2025-26, we had £1.22 million to do that. That covered 167 sites across Wales.

The 167 sites have been mentioned here in the Nature Networks programme, as well as the Local Places for Nature programme. Again, it's important that that continues.

Yes, and that's the plan. I think we've got a budget currently for about £750,000 committed for next financial year, but that may actually increase.

Okay, thank you. Thank you, Chair.

Thank you very much. We're going to come on to tree planting and timber now. I was just going to ask you, we know that the level of tree planting currently is woefully below the Welsh Government's target, so I'm just interested to hear from you what you're doing as NRW primarily in relation to the Welsh Government woodland estate that you manage, but also more generally to try and help meet those targets.

Okay, yes, I will do. So, if I take the Welsh Government woodland estate first, then, I think one of the things that is a key positive is the Welsh Government woodland estate is accredited to the UK woodland assurance scheme, which is a really demanding scheme around both the environmental quality and standard, but also timber harvesting and replanting, and it sets some quite stringent targets. Since NRW, every year we've managed to retain accreditation to that, and increasingly, over recent years, with fewer and fewer areas for improvements from an independent audit that we receive annually on our compliance with that standard. That's a really good, positive point in terms of the way that we manage the Welsh Government woodland estate in a sustainable management of natural resources approach. As part of that, we set restocking targets to ensure—

I was going to say, because it's not just the quality, I want to hear about the quantity as well now.

Yes. So, we have restocking targets of around and about—it varies a little bit, but around 1,000 hectares a year of restocking. And we are complying with those levels of restocking to ensure that there's timber there for the future, but also that we're doing it in the best way that we can for the environment.

We plant around 4 million trees annually on the Welsh Government woodland estate, and we also have done a lot of work to ensure that we've established really good framework contracts, not just for us, but for the private sector forestry industry as well, around planting, ground preparation, around restocking methods, to ensure that we're helping the market to deliver and develop and be good quality. We're supporting our staff with really good programme management to ensure that they can achieve these targets, to ensure that we meet the restocking requirements. So, that's what we're doing on the Welsh Government estate.

We have invested in our tree supply contracts in Wales, with Maelor Forest Nurseries providing about 2 to 3 million trees annually. We're also developing a multisupplier framework contract to increase diversity and resilience to climate change and disease threats as well, but also to try and grow the supply market in Wales, so that we've got a good strong supply market.

The woodland creation programme that we've got within NRW is around making sure that we are compensating for areas that are taken out of productive forestry, to ensure that we're compensating for those. We set a target of ensuring that we acquired 610 hectares of land for compensatory planting, and we're around 550 against that target. By the end of the planting season, we will have planted around 200 hectares of trees. As you know, we leave the ground fallow for about four years to ensure that we don't have to use chemicals and pesticides. So, we have a cycle of leaving the ground fallow for four years, so that we don't have to deal with the pests and diseases around that. That's on the estate, good progress.

Can I just ask, before we move away from that, you mentioned acquiring land, so what criteria do you use to identify land? Because obviously I'm hearing from some areas that you're coming in, buying up farms, and that kind of thing, which is obviously, when we look at sustainability, as the chair mentioned in his opening remarks, a broader thing than just the environmental context.

Absolutely. Absolutely. We are very, very conscious of that. The sort of land that we seek to acquire to replace land lost through things like renewable energy or peatland restoration or biodiversity SSSIs, we try to ensure that we're only looking at land that's contiguous with our current estate, so that it's easier for us to manage, that it's not good agricultural land, that it is less good in that way, and we try to ensure that we're not exacerbating the cost of land in the market. So, it is a very carefully balanced thing, because we recognise that there is the opportunity for a negative impact as a result of that. So, we've very careful about that and we're very modest about the targets we set on that basis.

So, going beyond the Welsh Government woodland estate, our roles, really, in the woodland creation and restoration schemes run by Welsh Government, are around advice upfront about good areas of land for tree planting—and this will be especially important as we've moved into the sustainable farming scheme—and helping land managers and farmers to identify the right areas for planting, and we can provide advice on that through the advice part of that scheme. But we then also verify the opportunities that come forward for the Welsh Government, and so far this year, we've done 500 hectares of verified woodland creation through the scheme, so we continue to work really hard on that.

We have spent some time ensuring that our systems and processes are streamlined, proportionate and pragmatic, so that it's easy for people to do it and access it, rather than making it difficult and presenting any more barriers, because, as you've said, Llyr, we know that there are hard targets to be met and we're not near meeting those targets yet.

Okay, thank you. That's very comprehensive. Can I just ask, then, about striking that balance between planting commercial timber crops and trees for biodiversity as well? Because it isn't just trees, there are different trees, aren't there, so how are you considering that?

On that, we need both because we've got to make sure that—. We've got to keep planting trees, but there are certain—. And what we don't want to do is get to a place where we've only got one type of species, because that would be dangerous. We need a mix of it. But, equally, we need to make sure that we have a genuinely low-carbon construction industry and that will only happen if we do have tree planting happening that allows us to use that. The one thing that I don’t think we do enough of in Wales—truthfully, I don’t think the UK does enough of it—is use the timber it produces, and we've got to work harder at that. And one of the things I've been talking to the team about is how we work closer with developers, house builders particularly, and say, 'How can you use our timber more?' So, we've got to start doing that. But we've got to think about peatlands as well, and making sure that we're restoring them at the right time.

Woodlands are biodiversity, it's climate change, it's also capturing our carbon that's out in the pollution, but also it could be developing some low-carbon buildings for us. And if there is one thing I want to do over the next two to three years, it's to encourage the whole industry to grab this and take this as an opportunity. We could transform our industry here if we did that. So, I'm hoping we'll do more of that.

Did you want to come in? Very briefly.

That is exactly what I was going to ask. Willow, particularly, is a fast growing, very usable tree and you can build within that the skills, the sustainability and the land improvement, and it does grow really quickly. Before plastic, willow was used hugely as a product, but also we're talking about hedgerows now coming into it and being considered. If you grew willow along your hedgerow and you could have those skills again about turning that into a natural boundary, you're doing all sorts of improvements. And beech, of course, is the other very useful product. I've been asking you repeatedly about joined-up thinking, and the Government has just announced, quite rightly—

Okay. We've got to be short now, Joyce.

—that housing would be more sustainable with the use of wood, so I'm just interested to know how you're joining up with that.

If I could really briefly—. Absolutely, with the timber industrial strategy that was launched earlier on this year from Welsh Government, we are refreshing and renewing our own commercial strategy, which is all about how we join up with that to ensure that we're doing what we can to stimulate the market. And we will absolutely be using our advice and guidance on the sustainable farming scheme to ensure that the right things are being done for the environment in terms of those hedgerows and the development of forestry on land. So, yes, we're absolutely working on that.

So, where are you at with the commercial strategy and the sales marketing plan then? How soon will we see that?

The timber sales and marketing plan is a five-year plan. We meet quarterly with the sector to ensure that we're giving them longer term projections about timber volumes, because we're conscious that we supply 60 per cent of the Welsh market. So, that's ongoing, continuous. We've got a five-year timber marketing plan. On the approach moving forward, we are definitely working with the sector to ensure that we're building in some of the things that we need to be considering, like peatland restoration and nature conservation on the woodland estate as well. So, we're working on all of those things with the sector.

And we know that there are financial challenges year-to-year on this, really, and that's being underpinned by Welsh Government.

Absolutely. So, our commercial strategy, we're working on that at the moment. We are having conversations with a range of stakeholders about inputting to that to make sure that it is a really good, integrated strategy, and we're planning to bring a draft of that to Welsh Government and within our own organisational governance in March-April, so that we can launch that then. Usually, we try to launch those things ahead of the Royal Welsh Show, so that would be an aim of ours to try and do that.

So, are you expecting the Welsh Government to continue to underpin financially, I think, is it £33 million?

Yes—

Is that seen as a short-term thing, or do you envisage that being an ongoing—

It's currently an annual agreement, so we agree it as part of the budget each year. At the moment, there's no suggestion that it would be taken away, certainly for the next financial year. I think it's part of what Ceri's talked about in terms of that overall strategy: we need to look at it as a whole, because, obviously, we've got other things that we're talking about, things like green finance et cetera, so the whole five to 10-year horizon on how we fund some of this, we need to look at more strategically.

Okay. The timber strategy, there's a commitment in there from the Welsh Government to develop options to increase the size of the woodland estate. You're in dialogue with Government on achieving that, yes?

Absolutely.

Yes, there we are. Okay, excellent. We're nearly there, and unless there are any pressing issues, I might just come back to you on the 'Case for Change' stuff, because, earlier, in opening—. It feels to us as a committee, and we've articulated this in previous reports, that NRW's been in some sort of constant state of evolution, which is a very challenging climate to operate in in terms of the board, but also particularly in terms of the staff on the ground. Now, you've alluded to the need to have some stability, but in the same sentence, chair, you said reforming as well. Stability and reform are two very different things. Clearly, there's a new chair and you have your own thoughts and ideas about moving forward; there will be a new chief executive, likewise, I'd imagine, wanting to put a stamp on the organisation. It's just picking up on what was said or asked earlier, really, about how we're still going to see more change coming, aren't we?

Yes, but that change doesn't have to be revolution. We can gradually make—. There's step change and there's continuous improvement. I think we need a period of continuous improvement. With me arriving, with a new CEO arriving, but equally Ceri is relatively new in the role, and she's also making lots of change, but it's not disrupting the organisation; it's empowering the organisation to do what it's set up to do. I think if we keep doing that, we'll start seeing an improvement. With the new people that have joined us, I am genuinely seeing an output-focused organisation. We've wasted far too much of our time on process. We need to focus on delivery, delivery, delivery all the time. That's what we need to do for the next 18 months to two years. Any new CEO coming in, of course, will want to change the world. My job is to say, 'Only change if it's going to make it better, don't touch it otherwise.'

There we are. Okay, diolch yn fawr. I think that's an appropriate note for us to conclude our evidence session, so can I thank the three of you for your attendance? You'll be sent a transcript of proceedings to check for accuracy, and we will, obviously, go away, digest and mull over some of the things that have been said and, no doubt, we will form a view on some of the things that have been said, but, obviously, respond to yourselves in many respects, but also to Welsh Government as well. Diolch yn fawr iawn. Thank you for being here.