14 Tachwedd 2022 , Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Bil yr Amgylchedd Hanesyddol (Cymru): Sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Gweinidog
Okay. Thank you for that. Alun.
14 Tachwedd 2022 , Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Bil yr Amgylchedd Hanesyddol (Cymru): Sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Gweinidog
Can I say, our committee was appalled by the idea that every single word within particular provisions are not debated within any Parliament whatsoever, because we love trawling over this? Let me turn to a different aspect here. The Association of Local…
14 Tachwedd 2022 , Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Bil yr Amgylchedd Hanesyddol (Cymru): Sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Gweinidog
Okay. Your argument seems to make good sense there, so—
14 Tachwedd 2022 , Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Bil yr Amgylchedd Hanesyddol (Cymru): Sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Gweinidog
Okay. Thank you very much. Let's turn to one of those areas that always, from a policy perspective, excites a degree of interest, and it's whenever there's a power to enter property, or in this case a power to enter land, under section 152(9). Now, again…
14 Tachwedd 2022 , Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Bil yr Amgylchedd Hanesyddol (Cymru): Sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Gweinidog
I can see, Mr Hughes, you're nodding away there.
14 Tachwedd 2022 , Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Bil yr Amgylchedd Hanesyddol (Cymru): Sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Gweinidog
Okay. Thank you very much. James, back to you.
14 Tachwedd 2022 , Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Bil yr Amgylchedd Hanesyddol (Cymru): Sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Gweinidog
Thank you for that. That's really helpful.
14 Tachwedd 2022 , Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Bil yr Amgylchedd Hanesyddol (Cymru): Sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Gweinidog
I'm taking from that, Mr Hughes, that from a policy and practice perspective, you don't see particular utility within this provision. As the CLA have argued, it hasn't been used. In fact, the use of it could be damaging to conservation and preservation.
14 Tachwedd 2022 , Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Bil yr Amgylchedd Hanesyddol (Cymru): Sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Gweinidog
Okay. Thank you for that. Let me turn to another observation. You were complimentary about the CLA—they did put very detailed submissions in on this. CLA Cymru told us that preservation notices have never been implemented, and they're unlikely to be…
14 Tachwedd 2022 , Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Bil yr Amgylchedd Hanesyddol (Cymru): Sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Gweinidog
Okay. Is there anything that you want to add in terms of that aspect—that previously, at least in principle, it had some discretion around it, but now, within this Bill, it takes away that discretion?
14 Tachwedd 2022 , Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Bil yr Amgylchedd Hanesyddol (Cymru): Sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Gweinidog
Thank you, Alun. Thank you very much. Let me turn for a moment to recovery of costs and compliance with enforcement notices under section 132(5). We've had some exchange of correspondence on this and some answers from you, Counsel General. One of the things…
14 Tachwedd 2022 , Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Bil yr Amgylchedd Hanesyddol (Cymru): Sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Gweinidog
Thank you, James. Alun, to you.
14 Tachwedd 2022 , Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Bil yr Amgylchedd Hanesyddol (Cymru): Sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Gweinidog
That's why we're pushing so hard on this. It's important to get this on record. Thank you very much indeed. James, back to you.
14 Tachwedd 2022 , Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Bil yr Amgylchedd Hanesyddol (Cymru): Sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Gweinidog
So, you're in line with their suggestion that the TAN advice should be clarified to clarify that conservation remains Welsh Government policy, and where the term 'preservation' is used in the legislation, it should be interpreted as not conflicted with that…
14 Tachwedd 2022 , Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Bil yr Amgylchedd Hanesyddol (Cymru): Sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Gweinidog
Could you just give us a flavour of how your discussions with the CLA and Historic Houses Wales have gone on this? Are they reassured by what you are telling us, that this is a matter of interpretation, it does not stop, there is not a clear, defined line…
14 Tachwedd 2022 , Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Bil yr Amgylchedd Hanesyddol (Cymru): Sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Gweinidog
And I wonder, Mr George, if you could draw as well on the comments made by the House of Lords in the South Lakeland case that preservation does allow change. So, over to you for the legally precise interpretation of this.
14 Tachwedd 2022 , Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Bil yr Amgylchedd Hanesyddol (Cymru): Sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Gweinidog
Could I switch to the other end of the table—
14 Tachwedd 2022 , Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Bil yr Amgylchedd Hanesyddol (Cymru): Sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Gweinidog
That's helpful, but just to draw out from you, you are being quite clear in saying that the term 'preservation' does not necessarily mean preserved in aspic. You see an interplay between the terms 'preservation' and 'conservation' in practice.
14 Tachwedd 2022 , Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Bil yr Amgylchedd Hanesyddol (Cymru): Sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Gweinidog
No, it's very important.
14 Tachwedd 2022 , Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Bil yr Amgylchedd Hanesyddol (Cymru): Sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Gweinidog
Okay. So, what is your understanding, in light of this Bill in front of us, of the difference between 'preservation' and 'conservation'? If there is a significant difference between the two terms, why does Welsh Government guidance and policy refer to…
14 Tachwedd 2022 , Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Bil yr Amgylchedd Hanesyddol (Cymru): Sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Gweinidog
Thank you, Alun. Let's turn to the issue of conservation as opposed to preservation, and you've probably seen, I suspect, some of the CLA evidence to us and the concerns that they've raised, and they do describe their objections to this as quite a fundamental…
14 Tachwedd 2022 , Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Bil yr Amgylchedd Hanesyddol (Cymru): Sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Gweinidog
Okay, thank you. Alun, over to you.
14 Tachwedd 2022 , Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Bil yr Amgylchedd Hanesyddol (Cymru): Sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Gweinidog
Okay, thank you. Mr Hughes, give us some reassurance.
14 Tachwedd 2022 , Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Bil yr Amgylchedd Hanesyddol (Cymru): Sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Gweinidog
Okay. That's helpful. Thank you very much. In that letter to you in September, we also suggested that the regulation-making power in section 2(3) was a new power that allowed the Welsh Ministers to apply historic environment law to buildings that could not…
14 Tachwedd 2022 , Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Bil yr Amgylchedd Hanesyddol (Cymru): Sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Gweinidog
Good. Thank you very much. Thanks, James. Before we go to Alun, let me just turn to a couple of questions. Back in our letter to you in September, we asked for further explanation as to the effect of the current provision in the Ancient Monuments and…
