Equality and Social Justice Committee, 29 Tachwedd 2021 | Open Senedd

Equality and Social Justice Committee, 29 Tachwedd 2021 | Open Senedd

Rachel Thomas

Of course. Thank you, Sarah. So, yes, we referred to the millennium cohort study in the evidence, and we haven't done any particular follow-up study of this, although we know that the Government are closely monitoring take-up, as they should be with such a large-scale investment that they've made here, really. As we just discussed in the previous question, it hasn't really changed the proportion so far of those who are attending formal childcare, in the main. So, although we haven't followed this up directly ourselves, we are starting to hear from professionals' emerging, albeit anecdotal, evidence about children's behaviours having perhaps regressed during the pandemic period and the periods where they were out of contact with formal services. So, those are things like language development and social skills. And it's notable that, actually, in parents' own responses to the Government survey in the year 4 analysis they published last week, they all noted really strong developmental benefits of being in the childcare offer. So, I think 94 per cent of parents perceived that their child's social development had increased through the offer, 88 per cent saw cognitive and language development benefits, and 87 per cent behavioural development, too. So, whilst we haven't necessarily got the impact on those who haven't been in the offer, we can see a strong impact on those who have been able to receive that formal childcare service.

There are some other sets of data that look at the longer term path. So, for example, the most recent data on school exclusions notes that, at all stages of education, children who are on free school meals are at least three times more likely to be excluded than their peers. So, this is something that we can see having a longer term impact, which is why it's so important for that child development element to be part of considering the offer. And there was also a report from the Nuffield Foundation in October of this year. It only looked at England, but it started to look at the short-term impact on children starting school since the pandemic. And they, again, saw evidence of children being behind their peers in terms of learning and personal and social development, and that was particularly the case for disadvantaged children. So, nothing specific and up-to-date from us, but there's definitely still that concern that we would hold strongly and some emerging evidence to support that in the wider sense.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi12:59Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Rachel Thomas

Sure, yes. Thank you. So, we all know that the geographical limits of Flying Start are very specific, almost to the point of one side of a street being eligible and the other not, and there can also then be difficulties when you have eligibility for certain programmes like Flying Start; quite often, then, you passport on to other benefits as well, so not only are the families that miss out on the Flying Start provision losing that, but then they also lose the opportunities to get on to other grants and benefits and things. And so we've discussed on many occasions with the Government about ensuring that poverty proofing looks at, when you're not eligible for one thing, whether that then effects eligibility or knowledge or awareness of other provisions that then might be of benefit, even if you're not within the current boundaries of Flying Start.

I think, whilst we don't yet know the full details, the Labour and Plaid co-operation agreement has the potential to do some of the legwork here in terms of the Flying Start two-year-olds offer. One might imagine that something similar to that kind of offer would be a starting point for that universal two-year-olds offer, and that can only be welcomed, really, and is something to push through as soon as can possibly be achieved, accepting that it'll likely need to be phased in, and so the best time to start is now, really.

I think the Flying Start offer is so strong because it does have good staff qualifications and things, so there would be an element of staff training and things that would, again, need to be phased in, I think, to be able to improve the offer, but I know that quality of provision is something that's really important to this committee as well. And so, if we're looking at making child development the centre of this, then it's right that we should be investing not just in the offer itself, but in the training that goes with it to make it a high-quality offer for all that are accessing it.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi13:06Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Rachel Thomas

I'm happy to come in on that, thank you. So, I think something that Ruth touched on very briefly in one of her opening comments was about the locations in which the childcare offer and other provision is offered. And so because you've got different aspects of provision under different sets of funding, with the universal part that everyone gets and the 10 or the 12 hours that you can get, and then the 20 hours that comes under the funded formal childcare offer, quite often you will see children having to be moved to different settings through the day to access the free provision, and so that can't be conducive to parental employment, if you're going to have to make arrangements to move your child from one setting to another after two hours during the day. I know it's something that the Government are keen to explore, that child's experience through the whole setting and ensuring that all settings are delivering that high-quality offer, so that it's not then that you can only go to certain settings to access the provision.

I think that has to be a priority area to look at, because we also saw then through the pandemic—and this is covered in the Government's recent report as well—that because of contact groups and mixing and those kinds of concerns, there were settings that said, 'You can't come to us if you've been to another setting during the day.' So then that meant that, actually, parents were not sending their children to the free childcare provision that they were entitled to because they needed to keep them in the other setting, so they were ending up having to pay the top-up costs on that, even though they were entitled to a free childcare offer. Whilst nobody could have foreseen the pandemic when this offer was originally brought into force, that ability to flex—. The fact that children were having to go to all these settings created that additional problem then of not being able to access the offer when there was much more restriction around those contact groups. So, I think that would be a key area where more needs to be looked at in terms of who can deliver the offer, so that the child's experience is better, so that they're not being shipped around all day. Then that's bound to help with parental employment as well—they're not having to finish early or move or not take up the provision.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi13:09Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Martyn Jones

Yes, happy to, and obviously, we welcome much of what's in the co-operation plan, because there are equality measures mentioned in there that we're glad to see and we would like to see progressed in the manner it's been suggested, and obviously, that includes the move towards our 1 million people speaking Welsh, which is something that EHRC is totally committed to. But also to accept that, alongside that, the inherent diversity, which, again—not wanting to overcook this slightly—but the need for that disparity audit so that we understand what marginalised and underrepresented groups look like needs to sit alongside that. So, absolutely committed to supporting Welsh Government in that expansion from a Welsh-medium perspective, but hoping that that will trigger a similar parallel in terms of provision of specialist need for minority groups.

I think, addressing the other parts of your question, the bits that I know that Ruth has left to me, our suggestion is that there should be an introduction of a dedicated, non-transferrable and flexible use-it-or-lose-it shared parental leave for parents, with a pay rate that acts as a real incentive to take up. We want to see maternity and shared parental leave as a day one right for all employees, and include equivalent provisions for agency and self-employed workers to ensure that they can access paid shared parental leave at the same rate as employees. So, very much in line with what Ruth has set out, what we'd like to see, ultimately, is that the provision is in line with parental need and obviously the children's needs as well. But, yes, we really want to encourage parents to share childcare responsibilities, because ultimately, not surprisingly, the point EHRC would make here is the continued gender segregation of care labour and how that manifests in all areas, including this one. It is predominantly women who are required to pick up this responsibility and to pay the cost financially of having to do so.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi13:26Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Ruth Coombs

Thank you. If I may. We've known for decades that attainment—. There are two very strong markers of children's attainment and lack of attainment: one is free school meals indicators, and the other is literacy levels—maternal literacy levels. There was work done in the Inner London Education Authority I don't know how many decades ago, but there's not really been anything to contradict that. In fact, there's been evidence to support it. If we are able to encourage and support more young children to be in free childcare provision, we are giving them a more level starting point. In fact, this is—. And I know that, obviously, the Flying Start approach has been really helpful, and the idea of that was to boost, because we know where the wall is, and it's not about bringing the wall down but making sure that everybody has got access to the wall, which may be to look over it, and that might mean you need a bigger stepladder.

But, at the moment, because things are really available for people who are working, it means that non-working parents aren't able to get into, or find it very difficult to get into, the workplace, because, if you want to access education, training or skills, you can't access the offer because you're not working. So, it could also provide a stepping stone to further education and skills development for parents and families, pulling the whole family out of poverty. We know that Wales has got among the highest levels of child poverty, particularly for under-fours, in the UK and beyond, so it needs to be a multipronged initiative that brings the two together, and I think that that, if it's couched in that way, will be—. It can also be seen in terms of economic development; it's money well spent, because it's not simply enhancing the outcomes of the children, which is hugely important; it also gives a benefit to the families immediately, or in the very short term. So, you can't not win.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi13:34Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Rachel Thomas

I'm happy to come in on that one. So, in terms of holiday provision in particular, we were really pleased to see the Summer of Fun, the Haf o Hwyl funding that was in place over this summer, which came from a round-table that we'd organised, noting that the impact of the pandemic on children had stopped them going to their social clubs and events, and wanting to re-energise that provision. So, the Government invested £5 million in that over the summer and have since put a further £20 million now in place into what they're calling 'the winter of well-being', to continue the access—free access—to provision during the holidays. And that's in a range of provision, so not just sports clubs or traditional play schemes, but cultural activities, and people like National Museum Wales are involved in that provision.

And the principles that sat behind that investment were really about being free at the point of delivery and also access to Welsh-medium provision and a range of provision, and ensuring access for children with additional needs and that sort of thing as well. So, we were really pleased that those principles underpinned that, and we know that the Government are evaluating the Haf o Hwyl at the moment, but have already invested this money in the winter of well-being. And that's exactly the sort of thing that shows that that is a child-centred investment, and so that money has been well spent in direct free provision that's available to children and young people with all of those accessibility criteria. And a lot of that was being delivered on school sites and things as well, so that comes back to not shipping children around to different provision during the day.

And another key principle of it was not having competition between different schemes. So, quite often, you might have a particular scheme that's funded that's got to operated on the school site but there was already perhaps successful childcare provision on that site and so the last thing you want is competing provision when actually what we're just trying to do is reach as many children as possible rather than have three schemes operating in one locality and then areas where there's nothing being offered. So, I'm not sure whether anything will come out on that through the evaluation, but a key principle of the funding was about broadening the access rather than having lots of provision in places where there already is some. But I think also that stuff, then, is linked to the pilot around how the school day could look and whether add-on after-school development-type activities could be part of that—not a formal school day, but ensuring that those opportunities are more available to everyone and not just those who can afford to spend lots of money on them. So, those are the areas that we would focus on in ensuring wraparound and holiday care.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi13:42Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Ruth Coombs

I'd just like to add consideration for what can the community do, looking at this in terms of the community all working together. We know there have been some really good examples during the pandemic of local communities coming together to improve various different aspects of children and young people's and families' lives.

So, looking at the added value that community groups can give in this space, quite often, a public body running a scheme can cost quite a lot of money; there are other ways of doing it, and sometimes those community initiatives can have a different approach and a different cost rating. I think we're going to have to be really—. I think it needs to be really clear what we mean by wraparound care, and what does wraparound care mean for parents and their children. And when I say parents, that's shorthand for parents, carers, guardians, whoever is responsible for the care of those children.

I think we also need to include that provision for looked-after children, and what are the impacts for looked-after children, particularly children who are looked after in care home settings, because, when they go home, they're going home to something very different than my children came home to, for example. And we also need to look at the particular needs of disabled children and children and families from ethnic minority backgrounds. And again, anything that we do would need to be matched with confidence building and understanding and some form of campaign to say, 'Actually, this is fine; this is good for your children.' Those of us that have been working parents—I was a working single mother for a very long time, and I ended up with the classic working mother's guilt. And so, badging this as something that is good for children, and not a place to put children so that you can work, would have a huge—it would make a really big difference to how people feel about families and work, and work and home-life balance, and I think that's really important.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi13:45Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol