Children, Young People, and Education Committee

Bore da, everyone. Welcome to today's meeting of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. In the absence of the Chair, Buffy Williams, the first item on today's agenda is the election of a temporary Chair for the duration of today's meeting. Therefore, under Standing Order 17.22, I call for nominations for a temporary Chair.

I'd like to nominate Vaughan Gething, please.

Thank you. Are there any other nominations? I see that there are none. I therefore propose that Vaughan Gething is appointed temporary Chair of the committee for the duration of today's meeting. Are there any objections? I see that there are none and invite Vaughan Gething to take the Chair.

Thank you very much. Good morning. Bore da, pawb.

We are going to take ourselves through today's meeting of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. Public items are being broadcast as usual and the meeting is available bilingually, with simultaneous translation from Welsh to English. Are there any declarations of interest from Members before we begin?

Wel, y datganiad arferol. Roeddwn i’n rhan o’r cytundeb cydweithio rhwng Plaid Cymru a’r Llywodraeth. Roeddwn i wedi bod ynghlwm â pharatoi fersiynau cynnar o'r Papur Gwyn yma, ond fe ddaeth y cytundeb i ben cyn bod y drafft cyntaf yn cael ei gyhoeddi, ond roeddwn i'n rhan o lunio'r Papur Gwyn oedd wedi rhagflaenu'r Bil yma.

Diolch yn fawr, Cefin. Thank you for your usual declaration, which you've given consistently. Buffy Williams has sent her apologies; Joyce Watson is attending in her place. Natasha Asghar also sends her apologies and Sam Kurtz is attending in her place and is leading for the Welsh Conservatives on this piece of legislation. So, welcome to you both. I'd also like to welcome again the Cabinet Secretary, Mark Drakeford, and his officials to the meeting. There's Sioned Tobias, Bethan Webb and Siwan Daniel.

We'll go straight into proceedings. We're here to finish Stage 2 proceedings. We have six groups left after, last week, we dealt with sections 1 to 27 of the Bill. Some of the amendments that we'll be voting on were moved and debated last week, but we'll come to that in proceedings.

We're going to start where we left off, that is at the start of group 22. So, the twenty-second group of amendments relates to local Welsh in education strategic plans. The lead amendment in this group is amendment 74.

I move the amendment in the name of the Cabinet Secretary and call on the Cabinet Secretary to speak to the lead amendment and other amendments in this group. Bore da.

Diolch yn fawr. Bore da, Cadeirydd. Mae Rhan 4 o’r Bil yn ymwneud â chynllunio addysg Gymraeg a dysgu’r Gymraeg. Mae adrannau 28 i 33 o’r Bil yn benodol yn ymdrin â’r trefniadau ar gyfer cynllunio addysg Gymraeg ar lefel awdurdodau lleol mewn ysgolion a gynhelir, drwy’r cynlluniau strategol lleol y Gymraeg mewn addysg. Felly, yn ogystal â chynllunio mewn perthynas â’r ddarpariaeth Gymraeg mewn ysgolion a gynhelir, pwrpas ac effaith gwelliant 74 yn enw’r Llywodraeth yw sicrhau y gall sgôp y cynlluniau strategol lleol y Gymraeg mewn addysg gynnwys plant o oedran ysgol gorfodol nad ydynt yn ddisgyblion mewn ysgolion a gynhelir. Yn benodol, bydd y gwelliant yn gosod dyletswydd ar awdurdodau lleol, i’r graddau y bydd yn ofynnol gan reoliadau, i nodi sut y byddant yn arfer eu swyddogaethau addysg i hybu a hwyluso addysgu’r Gymraeg, ac addysg a hyfforddiant drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, mewn perthynas â phlant o oedran ysgol gorfodol nad ydynt yn ddisgyblion mewn ysgolion a gynhelir. Byddai’r grŵp yma o blant yn cynnwys, er enghraifft, plant sy'n derbyn darpariaeth EOTAS, addysg heblaw yn yr ysgol, a drefnir gan yr awdurdod lleol. Gallai hyn gynnwys plant i ffwrdd o’r ysgol oherwydd salwch.

Yn y cyfarfod wythnos diwethaf, pleidleisiodd y pwyllgor o blaid gwelliannau’r Llywodraeth yng ngrŵp 20 i gynnwys addysg drydyddol o fewn y fframwaith cenedlaethol. Mae’r Llywodraeth hefyd o’r farn bod lle i ymestyn ymhellach rôl y Comisiwn Addysg Drydyddol ac Ymchwil, Medr, i fod yn ymgynghorai statudol i’r cynlluniau strategol lleol y Gymraeg mewn addysg. Roedd Medr wedi cynnig hyn yn eu tystiolaeth i'r pwyllgor ac mae gwelliant 75 yn gwireddu hyn.

Yn yr un modd, pwrpas gwelliant 148, yn enw Cefin Campbell, yw ychwanegu Mudiad Meithrin at y rhestr o sefydliadau y mae’n rhaid i awdurdodau lleol ymgynghori â nhw wrth baratoi eu cynlluniau strategol Cymraeg mewn addysg. Rwy'n hapus i gefnogi'r gwelliant hwn.

O'r gwelliannau sy'n weddill yn y grŵp hwn, mae gwelliant 152, yn enw Cefin Campbell, yn rhoi'r pŵer i Weinidogion Cymru ddiwygio cynllun strategol lleol y Gymraeg mewn addysg yr awdurdod lleol, neu osod un newydd lle mae Gweinidogion Cymru o'r farn ei bod yn annhebygol y bydd yn cyrraedd y targed a osodwyd arno gan y fframwaith cenedlaethol.

Rwy'n deall, wrth gwrs, yr awydd i gael mecanwaith mewn lle i orfodi newid os oes arwyddion bod targedau yn y fframwaith cenedlaethol yn annhebygol o gael eu cyrraedd. Ond dwi ddim yn cytuno y byddai rhoi pŵer i Weinidogion Cymru allu gosod cynllun diwygiedig neu gynllun newydd ar awdurdod lleol yn cyflawni hynny. Mae gan Weinidogion Cymru bwerau tebyg i'r rhai sydd ar gynnig yng ngwelliant 152 o dan Ddeddf Safonau a Threfniadaeth Ysgolion (Cymru) 2013, sydd erioed wedi cael eu harfer. Mae hynny oherwydd eu bod yn anymarferol.

Mae cynllunio a gweithredu WESP yn dibynnu'n fawr ar adeiladu partneriaethau cryf rhwng ysgolion, cymuned, rhanddeiliaid ac aelodau'r cabinet i gyflawni’r un nod. Os yw’r berchnogaeth leol honno yn cael ei hanwybyddu a’i disodli gan gynllun wedi ei orfodi, fy marn i yw y bydd yn annhebygol o lwyddo. Dyma pam mae adran 32(3) o'r Bil wedi ei ddrafftio, fel bod gan Weinidogion Cymru y pŵer i gyfarwyddo awdurdodau lleol i ystyried diwygio eu cynllun. Mae hyn yn fwy tebygol o annog ymddygiad cadarnhaol mewn perthynas â gweithredu y WESP. Mae hyn yn ymwneud â gwneud cyfraith well sy'n arwain at newid cadarnhaol. Ac ar y sail hon, hoffwn ofyn i Aelodau wrthod gwelliant 152.

Mae gwelliannau 149, 150 a 151, yn enw Cefin Campbell, o ganlyniad i welliant 152, ac ar y sail fy mod yn gwrthod gwelliant 152, rwyf hefyd yn gofyn i’r Aelodau wrthod gwelliannau 149, 150 a 151. Diolch yn fawr.

Diolch. Are there any other Members who wish to speak in the debate? Cefin Campbell.

Thank you very much and thank you very much to the Cabinet Secretary for his response to the amendments in my name. But before I turn to those, I would be delighted to accept the amendment in my name that you have referred to in terms of including Mudiad Meithrin as one of the partners that we will consult with in terms of the local WESPs. We know that the early years sector is entirely crucial to the growth of Welsh-medium education, and therefore I am sure that everyone would support that this morning, and the same is true, of course, of Medr, who play a key role in the tertiary sector.

The reason I introduced amendment 152 and the related amendments—. I have listened very carefully this morning to the comments made by the Cabinet Secretary, and you referred to the importance of building strong partnerships to deliver the aims, and I agree entirely with that, and that those partnerships are crucial in terms of securing the aim of having WESPs that are as ambitious and as robust as possible, but there is still a possibility that those partnerships may fail to deliver that aim that we want to see delivered in all local authorities. Therefore, if we were to reach a position where one local authority says, 'No, I’m sorry, we are not going to do what you expect of us', well, there is then no other mechanism in place. We could direct, as you said, local authorities to amend the plan, but it would be entirely possible for them to say, 'Well, no, thank you very much, we’re not going to do that.' So, what I’m asking for is that Ministers should have the powers to impose a WESP in accordance with the national framework, in accordance with the aim of the Welsh Government, that all parts of Wales do contribute to the goal of creating at least a million Welsh speakers.

So, although I understand the spirit in which you made your responses to my amendments, I still feel that there would be scope for some local authorities to say, 'No, thank you very much', so I would hope then that Welsh Ministers could step in and impose a WESP if they were not content with the level of co-operation with the aims of the Government. So, that’s why I tabled that amendment and the consequential amendments. Thank you.

Diolch, Cefin. Are there any other Members who wish to contribute? No, there are not. I invite the Cabinet Secretary to reply to the debate if he so wishes.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Cadeirydd, a diolch i Cefin Campbell am ddweud ei fod e’n mynd i gefnogi y gwelliannau yn enw’r Llywodraeth.

Jest i fynd yn ôl at welliant 152, rŷn ni eisiau gweld yr un peth fan hyn, onid ydym ni? Y ddadl yw sut i wneud hynny. Bydd y targedau o dan y Bil yn orfodol i’r awdurdodau lleol. Dydyn nhw ddim yn gallu rhoi cynllun i mewn sydd ddim yn mynd gyda’r targedau y bydd y Llywodraeth a'r awdurdodau lleol yn gallu cytuno â nhw. Os yw partneriaeth yn methu, fel y mae Cefin Campbell yn dweud, beth yw’r ffordd orau i drio ailadeiladu’r berthynas yna? Wel, dwi dal ddim yn meddwl mai'r ffordd orau i’w wneud e yw drwy ddweud, 'Wel, rŷn ni jest yn mynd i roi cynllun i chi, a bydd rhaid ichi nawr ddefnyddio’r cynllun.' Mae lot o ffyrdd ble mae awdurdodau lleol yn gallu ddim mynd gyda rhywbeth dŷn nhw ddim yn cytuno gyda. Y ffordd rŷn ni’n gwneud pethau nawr gyda’r WESPs yw trwy gael y cynllun i mewn, siarad gyda nhw; dŷn ni ddim jest yn derbyn beth mae’r awdurdodau lleol yn ei ddweud. Mae proses yna ble rŷn ni’n siarad gyda nhw, negodi gyda nhw, ac ar y diwedd, rŷn ni’n gallu cytuno ar rywbeth.

Beth, yn y dyfodol, os bydd y Llywodraeth, er enghraifft, gyda’r pwerau nawr a fydd gyda nhw, ddim yn fodlon cytuno gyda chynllun Gwynedd, er enghraifft? Nawr, gyda'r pwerau mae Cefin Campbell eisiau eu rhoi yn y Bil, bydd y Llywodraeth yn gallu dweud wrth Gyngor Gwynedd, 'Na, na, rŷn ni'n gwybod yn well fan hyn yng Nghaerdydd na chi sy'n rhoi’r gwasanaethau yn lleol.' So, dwi’n dal i feddwl mai’r ffordd orau ymlaen yw’r ffordd yn y Bil, lle mae’r Gweinidogion yn gallu cael sgyrsiau a negodi gyda’r awdurdodau lleol. Mae honno’n ffordd well ymlaen na jest cael y pwerau yn ein dwylo ni i ddweud rhywbeth sy’n orfodol i bobl sydd ddim eisiau gwneud beth rŷn ni’n awgrymu.

Diolch, Ysgrifennydd Cabinet. So, the question is that amendment 74 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 74 is agreed.

I move amendment 46 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. So, the question is that amendment 46 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 46 is agreed.

Samuel Kurtz, amendment 96.

Symud.

Symud. The question is that amendment 96 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections. We'll move to a vote. All those in favour of amendment 96, please show. That's three. All those against, that's three. It's three for, three against, so I'll therefore use my casting vote in the negative. Amendment 96 is, therefore, not agreed.

I move amendment 47 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. So, the question is that amendment 47 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is one objection. We'll move to a vote. All those in favour of amendment 47, please show. That's one, two, three—four. All those against amendment 47, please show. That's two. Four in favour, two against. Amendment 47 is therefore agreed.

Samuel Kurtz, amendment 97.

Symud.

Symud. So, the question is that amendment 97 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there are objections. We'll move to a vote. All those in favour of amendment 97, please show. That's one, two, three. And all those against. That's one, two, three. So, that's three for and three against. I therefore use my casting vote in the negative. Amendment 97 is not agreed.

I move amendment 48 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 48 be agreed to. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 48 is agreed.

I move amendment 49 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 49 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 49 is agreed.

I move amendment 50 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 50 be agreed. Does any Member object? No. Amendment 50 is agreed.

I move amendment 51 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 51 be agreed. Does any Member object? No. Amendment 51 is therefore agreed.

I move amendment 52 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 52 be agreed. Does any Member object? No, there are no objections. Amendment 52 is therefore agreed.

I move amendment 75 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 75 be agreed. Does any Member object? No, there are no objections. Amendment 75 is therefore agreed.

Cefin Campbell, amendment 148.

Symud.

Symud. Amendment 148 is moved. The question is that amendment 148 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 148 is agreed.

I move amendment 53 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 53 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 53 is agreed.

I move amendment 54 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 54 be agreed to. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 54 is agreed.

Cefin Campbell, amendment 149.

Symud.

Symud. The question is that amendment 149 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections. We therefore move to a vote. All those in favour of amendment 149, please show. That's one. All those against, that's one, two, three, four, five. One in favour, five against. Amendment 149 is therefore not agreed.

Cefin Campbell, amendment 150.

Symud.

Amendment 150 is moved. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections. We'll therefore move to a vote. All those in favour of amendment 150, please show. That's one. And all those against. That's one, two, three, four, five. One in favour, five against. Amendment 150 is not agreed.

Cefin Campbell, amendment 151.

Symud.

It's moved. The question is that amendment 151 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. We therefore move to a vote. All those in favour of amendment 151, that's one. All those against, one, two, three, four, five. That's one in favour, five against. Amendment 151 is not agreed.

Cefin Campbell, 152.

Symud.

Amendment 152 is moved. The question is that amendment 152 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. We'll move to a vote. All those in favour of amendment 152, that's one. All those against, it's one, two, three, four, five. That's one in favour, five against. Amendment 152 is not agreed.

I move amendment 55 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 55 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No, there are no objections. Amendment 55 is agreed.

I move amendment 56 in the name in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 56 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No, there are no objections. Amendment 56 is agreed.

I move amendment 57 in the name in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 57 be agreed to. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 57 is therefore agreed.

We have now landed on group 23. The twenty-third group of amendments relates to the appointment of the chief executive of the national institute. The lead amendment in this group is amendment 90.

I move the amendment in the name of the Cabinet Secretary and call on the Cabinet Secretary to speak to the lead amendment and other amendments in this group. Professor Drakeford.

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. Mae'r gwelliannau yn y grŵp hwn yn cyfeirio at apwyntiad prif weithredwr cyntaf yr athrofa dysgu Cymraeg. Gwelliant 90 yw'r prif welliant ac mae'n cyfeirio at apwyntio'r prif weithredwr cyntaf. Mae'r gwelliant yn bwysig gan ei fod yn cynnig mwy o eglurder ynghylch y penodiad hwn.

Mae disgwyl i'r athrofa, corff statudol newydd, gael ei sefydlu ym mis Awst 2027 ac mae'n ofynnol i brif weithredwr fod mewn lle er mwyn sefydlu'r corff. Wrth gynllunio ar gyfer sefydlu'r corff newydd hwn, mae angen i ni ystyried hawliau cyflogaeth lle mae Rheoliadau Trosglwyddo Ymgymeriadau (Diogelu Cyflogaeth) 2006 yn berthnasol, ac wrth gwrs yr angen i sicrhau bod yr athrofa, fel corff statudol newydd, yn cael ei greu mewn modd dilys. Mae gwelliant 90 yn ei gwneud yn gliriach ar wyneb y Bil y gallai fod gwahanol lwybrau i benodi'r prif weithredwr a gosod telerau ac amodau, yn dibynnu ar a yw rheoliadau TUPE yn berthnasol. Mae'r drafftio newydd yn galluogi'r Bil i ddelio â gwahanol sefyllfaoedd apwyntio a allai godi. Mae'r gwelliant yn gwahanu i baragraffau gwahanol y darpariaethau ynghylch penodi'r prif weithredwr a phenderfynu ar amodau a thelerau'r person hwnnw.

Mae gwelliant 91 yn sicrhau bod y testun Cymraeg a'r Saesneg yn cyfateb â'i gilydd. Dwi'n gofyn i Aelodau i gefnogi'r gwelliannau yn y grŵp hwn.

Diolch. Are there any Members who wish to speak?

Yn fyr iawn, dim ond i ddweud fy mod i'n hapus iawn i gefnogi'r gwelliannau.

Ffantastig.

There are no other Members who wish to speak. Cabinet Secretary, do you wish to reply to the debate, such as it is?

Dim diolch, Cadeirydd.

Ffantastig.

Okay. So, the question is that amendment 90 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are none. Amendment 90 is therefore agreed.

I move amendment 91 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 91 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections.

Cefin Campbell, amendment 153.

Symud.

Symud. Amendment 153 is moved. The question is that amendment 153 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. We'll therefore move to a vote. All those in favour of amendment 153, please show. That's one, two, three. All those against 153, please show. That's one, two, three. Three in favour, three against. I therefore use my casting vote in the negative and amendment 153 is therefore not agreed.

Cefin Campbell, amendment 154.

Symud.

It is moved. Are there any objections to amendment 154? [Objection.] There are objections. We'll therefore move to a vote. All those in favour of amendment 154, please show. That's one, two, three. All those against. That's one, two, three. Three in favour, three against. I therefore use my casting vote in the negative and amendment 154 is not agreed.

Cefin Campbell, un pump pump.

Symud.

Amendment 155 is moved. The question is that amendment 155 be agreed. Are there any objections? [Objection.] There are. We'll move to a vote. All those in favour of amendment 155, please show. That's three. All those against. That's three. Three in favour, three against. I therefore use my casting vote in the negative and 155 is not agreed.

I move amendment 76 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 76 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 76 is therefore agreed.

I move amendment 77 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 77 be agreed. Does any Member object? No, there are no objections. Amendment 77 is therefore agreed.

We now arrive at group 24. There is a single amendment in this group relating to the Welsh language learning curriculum by the national institute. The lead and sole amendment is amendment 78.

I move the amendment in the name of the Cabinet Secretary and ask the Cabinet Secretary to speak to the lead and single amendment.

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. Mae Rhan 2 o'r Bil yn gosod dyletswydd ar Weinidogion Cymru i baratoi cod a fydd yn sefydlu dull safonol o ddisgrifio nodweddion penodol defnyddwyr Cymraeg yn seiliedig ar lefelau cyfeirio cyffredin y CEFR sydd wedi eu nodi yn y tabl yn Atodlen 1. Nod hyn yw hwyluso dealltwriaeth gyffredin gan ddysgwyr, athrawon, rhieni a chyflogwyr o daith unigolyn i ddysgu'r Gymraeg a'r deilliannau ieithyddol a ddisgwylir ar bob cam o'r daith honno.

Mae adran 37(2)(g) yn gosod dyletswydd ar yr athrofa i ddatblygu a chynnal cwricwlwm cenedlaethol ar gyfer dysgu Cymraeg i ddysgwyr dros oedran ysgol gorfodol. Bydd cwricwlwm yr athrofa yn gosod amcanion dysgu a fydd yn gyrru cynnwys ei raglenni dysgu. Ar hyn o bryd, nid oes gofyniad penodol i'r cwricwlwm a ddatblygir ac a gynhelir gan yr athrofa fod yn seiliedig ar lefelau’r CEFR yn Atodlen 1 na'r cod.

Drwy gyflwyno gwelliant 78, rwy'n sicrhau bod y cwricwlwm sy’n cael ei ddatblygu a'i gynnal gan yr athrofa, ac sy'n gyrru cynnwys ei rhaglenni dysgu, wedi’i seilio ar y lefelau cyfeirio cyffredin a nodir yn y tabl yn Atodlen 1 a'r cod a fydd yn cael ei baratoi o dan adran 6. Mae’n rhoi’r athrofa yn yr un sefyllfa ag y mae ysgolion yn y Bil, a dwi’n gofyn i’r Aelodau gefnogi’r gwelliant.

Diolch. Are there any Members who wish to speak in this debate? No, there are none. I'm assuming the Cabinet Secretary doesn't want to reply to a debate with his own voice in it. No. Well, it's tempting, I know, being a politician, but thank you for not doing so.

The question is that amendment 78 be agreed to. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 78 is therefore agreed.

We now move to amendment 79. I move the amendment in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 79 be agreed to. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 79 is therefore agreed to.

I move amendment 80 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is amendment 80 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 80 is therefore agreed.

I move amendment 81 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 81 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 81 is therefore agreed.

I move amendment 82 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 82 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 82 is therefore agreed.

I move amendment 83 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 83 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 83 is therefore agreed.

We are now at group 25. The twenty-fifth group of amendments is on the application of Welsh language standards. The lead and sole amendment in this group is amendment 84.

I move the amendment in the name of the Cabinet Secretary and call on the Cabinet Secretary to speak to the lead and sole amendment.

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. Mae hwn yn welliant technegol ynghylch cynnwys yr athrofa yn Rheoliadau Safonau'r Gymraeg (Rhif 6) 2017. Mae’r gwelliant yn newid ble mae’r corff wedi’i restru yn y rheoliadau. Nawr, bydd yr athrofa gyda chyrff addysg tebyg, yn hytrach na mewn rheoliad ar ben ei hun. Nid oes newid i’r safonau fydd yn berthnasol i’r athrofa ers i’r Bil gael ei osod. Nid oes unrhyw newid i'r polisi wedi bod ers craffu'r Bil yng Nghyfnod 1. Dwi'n gofyn i'r Aelodau gefnogi gwelliant 84.

Diolch yn fawr. Are there any Members who wish to speak in the debate? Is there anything further you wish to add in replying to yourself?

Dim diolch.

Fantastic. So, the question is that amendment 84 be agreed to. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 84 is therefore agreed.

I move amendment 85 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 85 be agreed to. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 85 is therefore agreed.

The twenty-sixth group of amendments relates to funding the National Institute for Learning Welsh. The lead and sole amendment in this group is amendment 156. I call on Cefin Campbell to move and speak to the lead and sole amendment.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Gadeirydd. Mae hwn yn welliant procio, felly fyddaf i ddim yn gofyn am bleidlais ar y gwelliant hwn. Ond dwi eisiau dweud gair bach neu ddau. Mae e'n dilyn sylwadau'r Ysgrifennydd Cabinet yn barod ynglŷn â phwysigrwydd rôl yr athrofa wrth symud ymlaen ac wrth gefnogi amcanion y Bil hwn. Mae'n rhaid, wrth gwrs—rŷn ni wedi trafod hyn wythnos diwethaf yn barod—sicrhau gweithlu digonol gyda'r sgiliau priodol i gefnogi twf addysg Gymraeg dros y blynyddoedd nesaf. Ac, wrth gwrs, mae angen inni sicrhau bod adnoddau digonol yn cael eu rhoi i'r athrofa er mwyn cyflawni'r nod hwnnw a thrawsnewid y ffordd mae'r Gymraeg yn cael ei haddysgu yn ein hysgolion a'n colegau.

Os yw dysgu Cymraeg i’r gweithlu addysg yw un o brif nodau’r athrofa, wel, mae'n rhaid, wrth gwrs, iddyn nhw gael y cyllid wedyn i gyflawni eu gwaith. Fe wnaeth Cymdeithas yr Iaith, yn eu tystiolaeth nhw, ddweud hyn:

'Hyd yn oed ar gyfer y gofynion presennol, mae Cynllun y gweithlu Cymraeg mewn addysg presennol y Llywodraeth yn gwbl annigonol i'r pwrpas o ran sicrhau gweithlu Cymraeg mewn addysg, ac yn tanbrisio'n gyfan gwbl faint y dasg o sicrhau gweithlu digonol ar gyfer y dyfodol. Mae angen buddsoddi llawer mwy sylweddol yn hyfforddi’r gweithlu, i gynnwys y rheiny sy’n hyfforddi o’r newydd i fod yn athrawon yn ogystal â’r rhai sydd eisoes yn gweithio.'

Felly, yn syml iawn, mae'r gwelliant yma yn gofyn am sicrhau cyllid digonol i'r athrofa, a gan mai gwelliant procio yw hwn, mi fyddwn i'n croesawu'n fawr iawn gyfle i drafod ymhellach gyda'r Ysgrifennydd Cabinet i weld sut y gallwn ni gyflawni'r nod o gefnogi'r athrofa i'r graddau y mae angen iddyn nhw gael cefnogaeth i gyflawni'r nod. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you. Are there any other Members who wish to speak? There are none. I therefore invite the Cabinet Secretary to speak.

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. Ar ôl clywed beth mae Cefin Campbell wedi'i ddweud am welliant procio, dwi ddim yn mynd i gymryd lot o amser i esbonio pam, yn fy marn i a barn y Llywodraeth, mae rhoi dyletswydd i ariannu'r athrofa fel y mae yn y gwelliant yn aneglur ac yn rhy agored i'w ddehongli. Beth dwi eisiau ei wneud yw dweud yn glir hoffwn gynnig sicrwydd i'r Aelodau fy mod i'n cytuno â'r angen i ariannu'r athrofa, a ffactor pwysig tu ôl i'n penderfyniad i sefydlu'r athrofa oedd i ddarparu sylfeini ariannol cadarn a fydd yn rhoi hyder i'r corff newydd a phlatfform i ddylunio polisïau, strategaethau ac ymyriadau tymor hir. Bydd hefyd yn rhoi sicrwydd i'r sector addysg ac i ddysgwyr bod cymorth canolog ar gael iddynt dros y tymor hir. Bydd gan yr athrofa, fel dywedodd Cefin Campbell, rôl allweddol wrth weithredu'r Bil hwn. Bwriad y Llywodraeth yw defnyddio'r pŵer yn y Bil i sicrhau bod yr athrofa yn cael ei hariannu i wneud ei gwaith, a hefyd i gyflawni'r nodau yr ydym wedi cytuno arnynt. A dwi'n diolch am y cyfle i roi hwn ar y record y bore yma.

Diolch yn fawr. I ask Cefin Campbell if he wishes to reply to the debate.

Na, diolch yn fawr iawn. Gan mai hwn fydd y cyfle olaf i fi siarad ar Gyfnod 2 y Bil yma, dwi jest eisiau diolch i'r holl Aelodau am eu cyfraniadau. Dwi'n diolch i'r Llywodraeth hefyd am dderbyn rhai o'n gwelliannau ni yn ystod y broses yma. Er dydyn ni ddim wedi cytuno pob dim, dwi wir yn edrych ymlaen at drafodaethau pellach cyn bod y Bil yma yn cael ei gyflwyno yn ystod Cyfnod 3 ar lawr y Senedd, ac rwy'n siŵr y gallwn ni weld y ffordd ymlaen er mwyn, efallai, cryfhau'r Bil ychydig bach ymhellach cyn ein bod ni'n dod i'r cyfnod nesaf. Felly, diolch i'r Ysgrifennydd Cabinet ac i bawb am eu cyfraniadau, a diolch i chi, Gadeirydd, hefyd.

Diolch yn fawr. Now, Cefin Campbell has indicated that amendment 156 is a probing amendment. Can I confirm that you wish to withdraw the amendment?

Yes. No vote.

Fantastic. So, does any Member object to the withdrawal of amendment 156? There is no objection. Amendment 156 is therefore withdrawn and not put to the vote.

I move amendment 58 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 58 be agreed to. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 58 is agreed.

I move amendment 86 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. If amendment 86 is agreed, amendment 98 falls. The question is that amendment 86 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. I therefore proceed to a vote. All those in favour of amendment 86 please show. Un, dau, tri, pedwar. That's four in favour. All those against. Un, dau. So, four are in favour, two against. Amendment 86 is therefore agreed, and amendment 98 has fallen.

We therefore move to amendment 60.

I move amendment 60 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 60 be agreed to. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 60 is therefore agreed.

I move amendment 61 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 61 be agreed to. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 61 is therefore agreed.

I move amendment 62 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 62 be agreed to. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 62 is therefore agreed.

I move amendment 63 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 63 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 63 is therefore agreed.

I move amendment 64 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 64 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No. Amendment 64 is therefore agreed.

I move amendment 87 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 87 be agreed to. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 87 is agreed.

We now move to the twenty-seventh and final group of amendments, which relate to general provisions. The lead amendment in this group is amendment 66.

I move the amendment in the name of the Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet and call on the Cabinet Secretary to speak to the lead amendment and other amendments in this group.

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd, ac achos mae'n bosib y bydd hwn y tro olaf i fi siarad yn ystod Cyfnod 2, a allaf i hefyd, fel roedd Cefin Campbell yn ei ddweud, ddweud diolch i chi am y ffordd rŷch chi wedi ein helpu ni i fynd trwy broses eithaf cymhleth yn ystod Cyfnod 2, ac i bob aelod o'r pwyllgor hefyd? Dwi'n edrych ymlaen at y drafodaethau rhwng nawr a Chyfnod 3 i weld ble gallwn ni ffeindio ffordd i gytuno ar rai o bethau a chryfhau'r Bil, fel rŷn ni i gyd eisiau ei weld.

Mae'r grŵp olaf o welliannau yn grŵp eithaf technegol. Pwrpas y grŵp yma yn gyffredinol a'i natur yw cryfhau eglurder drafftio a nodau polisi. Pwrpas ac effaith gwelliant 66 yw rhoi eglurder ynghylch anfon dogfennau mewn amgylchiadau penodol.

Pwrpas ac effaith gwelliant 88 yw rhestru paragraff 2(4) o Atodlen 2 yn adran 52(4) fel y bydd unrhyw reoliadau a wneir o dan baragraff 2(4) yn dilyn y weithdrefn gadarnhaol. Mae’r gwelliant yma yn dilyn argymhelliad gan y Pwyllgor Deddfwriaeth, Cyfiawnder a’r Cyfansoddiad, a’r ymrwymiad a roddais i gyflwyno gwelliant yn fy ymateb i'r pwyllgor ar 13 Ionawr.

Pwrpas gwelliant 89 yw rhoi dyddiad cychwyn Rhan 5 ac Atodlen 2 ar wyneb y Bil. Effaith hyn yw y bydd gwaith paratoi ar gyfer sefydlu’r athrofa dysgu Cymraeg yn cael ei wneud yn y cyfnod ar ôl y Cydsyniad Brenhinol a chyn 1 Awst 2027 fel y gall yr athrofa fod yn weithredol ar 1 Awst 2027.

Ac yn olaf, pwrpas gwelliant 71 yw cadarnhau ar wyneb y Bil pryd y daw Atodlen 1 i rym. Effaith y gwelliant yma yw y bydd Atodlen 1 yn dod i rym ddau fis ar ôl cael Cydsyniad Brenhinol, ar yr un pryd ag adran 5. Dwi'n gofyn i'r Aelodau i gefnogi'r gwelliannau hyn.

Diolch yn fawr, Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet. Are there any other Members who wish to speak? Samuel Kurtz.

Diolch, Gadeirydd, ac i ddechrau diolch i chi am sefyll i mewn i eistedd yn y Gadair yn ystod y Cyfnod hwn. Dyma'r cyfle olaf i mi fel Aelod siarad; hoffwn i ddweud gair o ddiolch i dîm y pwyllgor hefyd am yr amynedd maen nhw wedi ei ddangos i mi, wedi etifeddu'r gwaith hwn, a dwi'n ddiolchgar iawn am y cyfle i gydweithio gyda nhw ar hyn. Dwi'n edrych ymlaen i gydweithio gydag Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet hefyd ar beth yn ychwanegol y gallwn ni ei wneud yn sgil cymorth i rieni i sicrhau bod yna degwch yn y system i roi cyfle i bob un ddysgu'r Gymraeg, nid dim ond plant, ond cyfle i bobl ddysgu fel oedolion hefyd, a rhieni.

Dwi'n credu bod hwn yn gyfnod eithaf hanesyddol; nid yw'r iaith Gymraeg yn bêl-droed gwleidyddol, fel y dywedais i wythnos diwethaf. I mi, fel rhywun sydd wedi cael ei fagu yn yr iaith Gymraeg, yn ddwyieithog, dwi ddim yn credu fy mod i'n gwybod pa mor ffodus oeddwn i i gael cyfle i gael fy magu yn yr iaith Gymraeg. Os yw'r cyfle hwnnw yn cael ei roi i bobl ifanc yma yng Nghymru, dwi'n credu bod hynny yn beth da. So, dwi'n ddiolchgar iawn am waith Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, am waith Cefin Campbell hefyd ac am waith y pwyllgor a thîm y pwyllgor yn ystod Cyfnod 2, ac edrych ymlaen i Gyfnod 3.

Diolch, Sam.

Diolch yn fawr. So, are there any other Members? No. Then, for the last time in Stage 2 proceedings, I invite, if he so wishes, His Majesty's loyal Minister of the Crown, the Right Honourable Professor Drakeford, if he wishes to say anything further.

Dim ond i ddweud diolch i Sam Kurtz ac, wrth gwrs, i Cefin Campbell am yr ysbryd maen nhw wedi ei ddangos yn ystod Cyfnod 2, ac edrych ymlaen i weithio gyda'n gilydd cyn dod nôl ar lawr y Senedd yng Nghyfnod 3.

Diolch yn fawr. The question is that amendment 66 be agreed to. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 66 is therefore agreed.

I move amendment 67 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 67 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No objections. Amendment 67 is therefore agreed.

I move amendment 69 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 69 be agreed to. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 69 is therefore agreed to.

Cefin Campbell, amendment 157.

Symud.

Amendment 157 is moved. The question is that amendment 157 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. We'll therefore move to a vote. All those in favour of amendment 157, please show. That's un, dau, tri. And all those against. Un, dau, tri. Three in favour, three against. I therefore use my casting vote in the negative. Amendment 157 is therefore not agreed.

I move amendment 68 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 68 be agreed to. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 68 is therefore agreed.

Cefin Campbell, amendment 158.

Ie, symud.

Symud. The question is amendment 158 be agreed to. Are there any objections? [Objection.] There are. We'll therefore move to a vote. All those in favour of amendment 158, please show. Un, dau, tri. All those against. Un, dau, tri. That's three in favour, three against. I therefore use my casting vote in the negative. Amendment 158 is not agreed.

Cefin Campbell, amendment 160.

Symud.

It is moved. Are there any objections to amendment 160? [Objection.] There are. So, I call for a vote. All those in favour of amendment 160, please show. Un. All those against amendment 160. Un, dau, tri, pedwar, pump. That's one in favour, five against. Amendment 160 is therefore not agreed.

Cefin Campbell, amendment 159.

Tynnu hwnnw.

Okay. That is not moved. Thank you, Cefin.

I move amendment 88 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is amendment 88 be agreed to. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 88 is therefore agreed.

I move amendment 70 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 70 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No, there are no objections. Amendment 70 is therefore agreed.

I move amendment 89, in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. Does any Member object? No. Amendment 89 is therefore agreed.

I move amendment 71 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is amendment 71 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No. Amendment 71 is therefore agreed.

Cefin Campbell, amendment 99.

Am y tro olaf, symud.

Fantastic. So, the question is that amendment 99 be agreed to. Does any Member object? There are no objections. There we are. There's sometimes a cherry on top; sometimes it's a flake. Amendment 99 is therefore agreed.

So, diolch yn fawr, yr Athro Drakeford, to you and your officials for your attendance and for taking part in these Stage 2 proceedings. As is the usual course, you'll be sent the transcript of the meeting, to check for factual accuracy.

This now completes Stage 2 proceedings. I want to thank all Members for taking part in Stage 2, for the considered but also business-like manner in which proceedings have happened. And thank you again to Joyce and Sam for coming in at this stage in proceedings. So, Stage 3 begins tomorrow. The relevant dates will be published in due course. Standing Orders now make a provision for the Cabinet Secretary to prepare a revised explanatory memorandum, taking account of all the amendments that have been passed in the Stage 2 proceedings. The revised memorandum will be laid at least five working days before Stage 3 proceedings.

So, I now close proceedings for Stage 2, and the committee's business for the day. The committee will next meet again on Wednesday, 5 March. Thank you all very much. Enjoy the rest of your morning.