Children, Young People, and Education Committee

We move on now to agenda item 2, which is the seventh evidence session for this inquiry on routes into post-16 education and training. I'm very pleased to welcome Dona Lewis, chief executive, National Centre for Learning Welsh; Dr Ioan Matthews, chief executive, Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol; Gwenllian Owen, senior manager for higher education, Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol; Dr Gwennan Schiavone—have I said that right?—chief executive officer, CYDAG.

I will now start with the first questions, and I'll hand over to Carolyn Thomas, please.

Dr Gwennan Schiavone

Os caf i ddod i mewn yn fanna, dwi'n meddwl os byddwn i'n bod yn gwbl onest, dyma un o'r prif heriau neu un o'r brif pryderon sydd gan ein hysgolion uwchradd cyfrwng Cymraeg a dwyieithog ni ar hyn o bryd. Mae chweched dosbarth mewn sefyllfa fregus iawn. Mae ysgolion mewn sefyllfa fregus iawn oherwydd y cyllidebau sydd ar gael i ysgolion yn gyffredinol, ac yn fwy, felly, ar lefel y chweched dosbarth, yn amlwg, lle mae'r niferoedd yn is. Ac yn groes i egwyddor ysgol, pan mae penderfyniadau yn cael eu gyrru gan gyllid a rhifau ar bapur, mae e'n creu her i ysgolion.

Dwi'n meddwl mai'r broblem sydd gennym ni ydy nad ydy hi'n level playing field. Felly, tra ein bod ni eisiau llwybrau cyfrwng Cymraeg a chyn gymaint o Gymraeg a darpariaeth ddwyieithog ag sydd yn bosib ym mhob un sector, y llwybrau gorau, y dilyniant gorau i bob dysgwr rydyn ni ei eisiau ar ddiwedd y dydd. Ond mae'r tir cystadlu yna mor anghyfartal o safbwynt cyllid, lle mae'n bosib cael grantiau allanol, lle mae'n bosib cael nawdd allanol ac yn y blaen, lle mae ysgolion o reidrwydd o dan anfantais.

Dwi'n meddwl beth sydd hefyd yn bwysig inni fod yn meddwl amdano ydy ein bod ni eisiau gweld y datblygiadau yma ym mhob sector. Rydym ni eisiau darpariaeth ddwyieithog. Rydym ni eisiau darpariaeth Gymraeg. Ond beth sy'n allweddol ydy nad yw hynny ar draul darpariaeth mewn sector arall. Dwi'n meddwl bod yna bryderon mewn ambell i le neu ambell i gyd-destun lle mae yna ddatblygiadau cyffrous efallai yn digwydd mewn un sefydliad, ond efallai beth rydyn ni'n ei wneud mewn gwirionedd ydy symud dysgwyr o un lle i le arall, ac os nad ydy'r ddarpariaeth yna yn gyflawn wedyn o ran cyfrwng Cymraeg, yn anffodus, beth rydyn ni'n ei weld ydy llithro am yn ôl, wedyn, o ran defnydd iaith y dysgwyr yna. Ond dwi'n dweud hwnna fel dyma'r her sydd gennym ni, ond dwi'n meddwl mai dyma lle mae'r cyfle hefyd.

Fel roedd Ioan yn cyfeirio ato rŵan, o ran y cynllun o safbwynt darpariaeth Cymraeg yng nghyd-destun gwaith Medr, yn amlwg, mae'r newidiadau yn frawychus ar sawl gwedd o'r hyn sy'n digwydd yn y sector ôl-16. Yn y fan yma, mae yna gyfle i edrych o ddifrif ar yr heriau sydd yn wynebu ysgolion â chweched dosbarth. Rydyn ni'n gwybod pa mor bwysig ydy'r chweched dosbarth i fywyd yr ysgol, pa mor bwysig ydy o o ran dilyniant mewn addysg Gymraeg, mor bwysig ydy o o ran dilyniant yn y defnydd o sgiliau Cymraeg drwodd i addysg uwch neu i yrfaoedd ac yn y blaen. Felly, rydyn ni'n gwybod bod yna bwysigrwydd a gwerth i'r chweched dosbarth, ond beth sydd gennym ni ydy heriau cyllidol yn milwrio yn erbyn hynny. Ac felly, pan fyddwn ni, gobeithio, yn cyfrannu at ddatblygu'r cynllun yna, beth fyddwn ni'n gallu gwneud ydy sicrhau bod yna fformwlâu cyllido sy'n deg, bod yna gynllunio sydd yn deg ac yn rhesymol, a bod yna gydweithio pwrpasol hefyd.

Does yna ddim gwrthwynebiad o gwbl mewn ysgolion i gydweithio, wir. Mae yna nifer o ysgolion sy'n cydweithio â'u colegau addysg bellach lleol. Mae hwnna'n gweithio o fewn pynciau a meysydd penodol. Yn yr un modd, mae nifer o ysgolion yn pwlio eu hadnoddau at ei gilydd er mwyn cydweithio i ddarparu. Lle mae'r cydweithio'n mynd yn broblem ydy pan mae o'n troi o fod yn gydweithio i fod yn gystadleuaeth, a dyna beth rydyn ni eisiau ei osgoi. Beth rydyn ni eisiau ei sicrhau ydy bod unrhyw fuddsoddi mewn darpariaeth yn deg, yn rhesymol, ac yn dod yn ôl at beth sydd orau i'r dysgwr ar ddiwedd y dydd, yn hytrach na beth sydd yn arwain at lenwi coffrau rhyw sefydliad neu'i gilydd. Mae hwnna'n allweddol. Fel dwi'n dweud, mae yna heriau mawr ac mae yna bryderon difrifol yn ein hysgolion ni, ond gobeithio, trwy gydweithio a bod yna fewnbwn llawn gan ysgolion i'r broses o ddatblygu'r cynllun yna ac i gydweithio â Medr yn gyffredinol, efallai ein bod ni'n gallu mynd i'r afael â'r heriau yma rŵan.

09:48Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

3. Llwybrau at addysg a hyfforddiant ôl-16 - sesiwn dystiolaeth 8

We move on now to agenda item 3, which is the eighth evidence session for our inquiry, routes into post-16 education and training. I'd like to welcome Faith O'Brian, managing director of Cambrian Training Company—you're very welcome—and Jude Holloway, managing director of Educ8 Training Group. Thank you. We have a series of questions from Members, and I believe Carolyn Thomas is going to start.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi10:45Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Good morning. We've heard there is a variation in the quality, content and nature of careers advice given and information provided to learners, especially for vocational educational routes and apprenticeships. So, why do you think this is, and what is the impact of this on learners when making decisions about their options after year 11?

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi10:45Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Faith O'Brian

Shall I start, Jude? Perhaps I can put things into context for Cambrian Training. So, we are deliverers of apprenticeships pan Wales. Over the last two years, we've engaged with approximately 670 16 to 19-year-olds in the sectors of hospitality, manufacturing, sustainable resource management and, in small situations, leadership and management. When we sign an apprenticeship up, we obviously need to understand their journey to get to that apprenticeship stage and what their ambitions are. So, we do get to speak to them about the careers choices that they've been informed about up to that point.

I would say that, in schools, the careers choices are fairly inconsistent pan Wales, especially where apprenticeships are concerned. So, generally, when we engage with 16 to 19-year-olds, the majority of them haven't had apprenticeship advice within schools. Sometimes, I think that's about knowledge and skills. I think it can be very dependent on the school itself. Sometimes schools have good relationships with colleges and providers in the local area, and therefore they get engaged with careers choices. But sometimes that doesn't happen. Jude, do you want to pick that up?

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi10:46Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Jude Holloway

Absolutely. So, we're coming from our perspective on this. Educ8 training, very much the same as Cambrian, deal with a number of young people aged 16 to 19. We also have a small schools provision. So, we go in to some schools and deliver, to year 10 and 11, vocational qualifications. Those schools are few and far between. Whether it's affordability or appetite, the question is there.

We also work with a number of learners who are in education otherwise than at school, so they're not in education. We see them probably at the end of their journey in school, and then they're almost at the point of that this is the next and only option for that young person, before they turn into a NEET, not in education, employment or training. What I would say is—I would echo what Faith has said—it's inconsistency. Some schools are fantastic. I think it can depend on the individuals and the knowledge of individual teachers as well. But we often find that the advice given is very narrow in terms of: FE, sixth form.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi10:47Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Okay. So, do you look at what jobs are available in that local area as well, to see what skills are needed, and feed that into the young people, so that they've got clear pathways to encourage them into those jobs, they can see that end there? Or is it more the priority of growing what the children—sorry, young people—might be good at and what they think they would like to do going forward? I'm just wondering about those.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi10:48Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Faith O'Brian

I think the key there is what interaction we have with pre 16. We are limited in terms of the level of interaction. So, we tend to, as independent providers, engage at careers fairs; we used to engage at Skills Cymru. But, if you can imagine the number of schools there are pan Wales, for us as a resource, as an independent provider, to enter all of those schools—. We work with RLSPs. So, I sit on the board of mid Wales RLSP and north Wales RLSP—

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi10:48Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Can you say 'RLSP' in full, just for those people that might not know?

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi10:49Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Faith O'Brian

Sorry. Regional learning and skills partnerships—mid and north Wales.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi10:49Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Thank you.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi10:49Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Faith O'Brian

I also sit on the sub-boards, which is the provider. So, we engage with employers and careers at that level, to inform them of the offers available. So, really, indirectly, we get to influence the career choices, but I think that level of communication, from those meetings to actually being in front of the learners and the individuals, is inconsistent. Does that answer your question, sorry?

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi10:49Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Yes, it's fine. My second question is: to what extent do you believe there's a misunderstanding about work-based learning and apprenticeships amongst learners, parents, carers, teachers and careers advisers, as opposed to—? So, having that work-based learning as opposed to academic learning as well. What can be done to improve this and who needs to take it forward, do you think? Who needs to lead on this and push it?

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi10:50Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Jude Holloway

So, I think it's been a historical challenge. And I think, here in Wales and also across the border in England, work-based learning has always been seen as this poor relation. What you do with children that aren't engaging at school? Send them to do a hairdressing course, for instance. We have lots and lots of young people that come to us who are incredibly bright, and, actually, because they've had the support at home and the parents understand what an apprenticeship is, or they've been engaging in a vocational—. So, we do quite a bit with equine and animal care. A lot of our learners come to us because they've had horses, and, where they've got their horse, the employer's gone, 'Do you know what, you'd be brilliant at this?' And so they've had an input that's outside of all other areas; it's the employer driving that wish and desire and that passion in that young person.

So, I think it comes from lots of different places, but I think it's just a lack of parity. For me, personally, having worked in education in FE and HE, work-based learning is—we're going to say this, aren't we—my passion; it really shifts the dial for some of these young people. It's the driver that should be seen; a level 3 apprenticeship should have parity with an A-level. We're working really hard with the Universities and Colleges Admissions Service in England to get points, for instance, to acknowledge the hard work that that young person has done and the work skills.

So, I won't stand on my soapbox too long for that, but I think it's parity of esteem and it's people understanding what an apprenticeship is. The amount of people that come to me and go, 'So, what do you do, Jude? Do you look after construction—bricklayers, plumbers?' No. There's a myriad of things that these young people can do. And you know what? The foundation economy—I will stop in a sec, Faith—

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi10:50Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Faith O'Brian

That's okay. [Laughter.]

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi10:52Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Jude Holloway

The foundation economy needs these people.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi10:52Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Yes. There's a shortage.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi10:52Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Jude Holloway

Yes, you know. And I think—

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi10:52Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

There's an absolute shortage. But how do we get that message out there to learners and to people? Who should lead on that?

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi10:52Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Faith O'Brian

So, first of all, it has to be neutral and independent. It doesn't matter whether that individual, that pupil, is academically able or not, they have to have the same choices available, from A-levels to FE to apprenticeships. But also, I think, it does need to be careers. It needs to be teachers, it needs to be everybody giving independent advice that is learner-centric. Because there are a lot of influences that learner has at that age and we need to make sure we take account of all of those influences and give them fair, independent advice.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi10:52Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Very often, it's parental influence. So, to have that other influence and knowledge is important.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi10:53Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Faith O'Brian

So—. Sorry, Jude.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi10:53Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Jude Holloway

No, go on.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi10:53Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Faith O'Brian

If I can just give you an example, as independent providers, we used to sit on Skills Cymru—Skills Cymru, yes—in Cardiff and in north Wales. We used to have stands and we would try and promote apprenticeships, careers pathways and the value of earning while you're learning et cetera. What we actually experienced is a myriad of schools coming and bringing bus loads of year 10s and year 11s, where their choices had pretty much already been made. There were no parent interactions at that time. The schools that came was dependent on whether they had the funding for transport to bring them to the venue. And then, when you actually speak to the pupils, it was all of their friends and it was about how quickly could they get around all of the individuals. It wasn't about career choices; it was about a day out from school. So, we really do need to focus on career choices and include apprenticeships within that.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi10:53Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Jude Holloway

What I would just come back and also say is I think we've got a brilliant opportunity now with Medr, in terms of you've got all the right people post-16 sitting in the room that come from all different areas. That is brilliant—a great move. But, actually, if we don't get these young children, even at primary—. You look at trying to get more women and young girls into science, technology, engineering and mathematics areas; if you haven't got them before they've left primary school, good luck with that. I think there's been data and some work done on—. By the end of year 7, a young person—a child at that point—pretty much knows where their pathway is going to be for the next six to eight years. That's frightening.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi10:54Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

I wanted to look after horses.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi10:55Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Jude Holloway

There we are.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi10:55Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

But it didn't happen. [Laughter.]

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi10:55Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Faith O'Brian

We can make it happen; it's fine. You might be overqualified for an apprenticeship though, unfortunately.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi10:55Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Thank you, Chair.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi10:55Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Thank you. Thank you, Carolyn. Over to Joel, please.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi10:55Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Joel James

Thank you, Chair, and thanks ever so much for coming in today. I know you've already touched upon it with your answers to Carolyn there, but I just wanted to touch upon access to learning, access to the school, because, as you mentioned there, you're small independent providers, there are loads of schools, it's not always possible to go into all the schools. But, in both of your written evidence, you've gone on to a little bit more about the difficulties in, actually, for example, accessing sixth forms, and the competition there in terms of how they're almost graded on how many they send to university, really, rather than on to—. And I just wanted to get your ideas on that.

But also, I know, in England—I've got to apologise, I've got a bit of a cold—you have the Technical and Further Education Act 2017, and I think in there you've got like a Baker clause or something that's there that says, actually, you've got a statutory right to go into schools. I thought that covered the entire United Kingdom anyway, but apparently it just covers England, I suppose. Would there be something similar here, do you think, that should be in Wales? Or would that put too much pressure on you then, to do that?

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi10:55Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Faith O'Brian

In reality, going into every single school, which is what we're talking about, logistically, I think, is not feasible for us as a singular, independent provider. However, I do think that, as a group of providers that deliver apprenticeships—there are only 10 providers in Wales delivering apprenticeships—there is an opportunity to get together and actually make sure that the message that we give to careers, to schools, is consistent, and, as a group, we can give the correct information and share the choices. And there are so many choices for individuals and routeways into employment.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi10:56Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Jude Holloway

Absolutely. We've also got a perfect opportunity coming down the track with vocational certificates of secondary education; I'm sure you're all familiar with that. We, as an organisation, are already planning our approach to that. We're a relatively small provider. We've got a contract of £11.6 million. So, what we have decided to do is we're going to, hopefully, target secondary schools in south Wales and try and start engaging this year with preparing those schools for what our offering could be. And our offering would be not everything—we're not going to be all things to all men—but we would provide vocational training to enable those learners to move through pathways, through routeways, into apprenticeships 2, 3, 4, and, hopefully, build on. But how successful that will be remains to be seen, because schools are busy. Schools are busy; teachers are busy. And, I think, probably from Faith's and my perspective, it's not the case, I think, that schools don’t fancy doing it; I think they've got 101 things that sit above it at the moment. That's what I would say.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi10:57Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Joel James

Do you think there should be a statutory requirement for schools to allow you access then to learners?

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi10:58Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Jude Holloway

So, from my perspective, I would say that that would be brilliant. But along with that comes a resourcing challenge for providers. But, I think, even if—. You know, you go back years ago, when there was really sound career advice in schools—. Unfortunately, budgets have been squeezed. We've removed the professionals that were delivering that, then it's been part of someone else's job, and the quality, I would suggest, maybe, has diminished. But it would come down to resource at that point.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi10:58Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Faith O'Brian

I completely agree with you, Jude; it's a resource issue.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi10:58Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Joel James

I think that's it, Chair, thank you.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi10:58Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Thank you. We'll go online now to Vaughan, please.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi10:58Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Good morning. Bore da. I'm going to ask a bit more about the effectiveness of careers support—it sort of follows on. Don't feel the need to repeat anything. But I'm interested in—this is a bit of a repeat—the extent that the poor quality and the availability of support to learners result in the likelihood of those people becoming not in education, employment or training. I guess not just generally, 'Yes, it does', but where and how you see that. We're interested in how to not just describe the problem, but if you think there are answers, bearing in mind even the current budgetary challenges we have, about how you think our system could be improved, whether that's in schools or the role that you might have in trying to improve the level of information and support that our young learners have.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi10:59Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Faith O'Brian

Do you want me to pick up on this one, Jude? So, initially, obviously, we work quite closely with the youth engagement and progression framework and the lead workers that highlight the individuals that are at risk of falling out and becoming NEETs. I think there is a challenge in terms of the quality of information that those individuals get for the transition into their next steps. I think that it’s really important that these individuals get personalised career support and mentorship, and again, that the breadth of offer, the post-16 offer, is available to them. What we generally find—and we were just talking about this beforehand—especially with FE and HE, the number of drop-outs that we get from FE and HE that go on to apprenticeships and effectively attain the apprenticeships—. We haven’t analysed that data yet, but, actually, I think that’s something that’s really worth pursuing, to look at the drop-outs from FE and HE, and the careers advice and choices they were given at that time. I know a survey has gone out recently, this week, I think, to parents, which I’m completing myself, and I think that it will be really interesting to see the data that comes from that as well. Do you want to—?

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi10:59Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Jude Holloway

Unfortunately, I don’t think it’s one silver bullet to solve our problem. We know that NEETs are rising, the volume of young people that have got nothing meaningful, to either train or education or in work. I think we’ve got to shift the—. Something’s got to change somewhere, otherwise we’re going to be discussing this in five years’ time. And I think, if there would be something that would allow access to these young people before they become disengaged. Because ultimately we don’t want them at the end of their journey at school, and then teachers coming to us and going, ‘Please do something’ or, ‘Can you do something?’. So I think it’s advice and guidance from the very get-go, I think, and whether that’s a statutory requirement, that is above my pay grade to suggest, I’m afraid. But I think something fundamentally has got to happen pre 16, before we get them in post 16.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:01Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

So, look—and I’m sure you’re aware—there’s a youth engagement and progression framework that is already available, where people are supposed to identify earlier on those people who are at risk of becoming not in education, employment or training. And I know very well that, by the end of primary school, if not before, you’re likely to understand who is most at risk of that, and certainly in the early years of secondary education as well.

So, this isn’t approaching this from a ‘We don’t know anything, there aren't any systems in place'. I’m interested in how that information is currently used, and if you identify inconsistency that can usefully be resolved. Now, within that, with any systematic approach, you’re going to have individual actors who can choose not to do things. We’ve talked already about the fact that you’re in and engaged in some schools, but not in others. There are choices being made about that. But it’s about how we get past that.

We’ve talked a bit about work experience as part of that as well. Now, I’d expect you to say meaningful work experience is important for learners, but I’m interested in not just that, but this broader point: is this about the tools we have not being adequate, or is it how they’re used, and how consistently they’re used? And, as ever, it’s always helpful for us to have practical examples of what good practice looks like, because if there’s good practice, I don’t know, within Blaenau Gwent, then it shouldn’t be difficult for Torfaen to look at that and do something about it. If there’s good practice in Gwynedd, then why wouldn’t that work in Anglesey as well? So I’m really interested in your perspective on is it the tools we currently have that are the problem, or is it the way that advice and guidance is provided, or is it behaviour within the system.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:01Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Faith O'Brian

I think it's all three.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:03Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Jude Holloway

Yes, I was going to say.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:03Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Faith O'Brian

I think it's all three.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:03Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Okay.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:03Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Faith O'Brian

For me, you’re looking at good practice, and where I have seen good practice, it’s where we look at co-production, which is individual-centric, where you take all of those three elements and they work effectively, and there’s an intervention and an identification at an early age, so that you can work with that individual to get the right choices on the table, so that you take all of the factors of that individual: their financial situation, whether they come from disadvantaged communities, their friend groups—because they influence—their parents. It all influences their choices. So, it has to be a co-production-type scenario, where you bring all of that together and it’s learner-centric.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:03Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Jude Holloway

One thing that I just want to go back to, in terms of, Vaughan, I think you said something about primary school, and would I be able to identify children who are going to be at risk of leaving the education system, occasionally at primary. I found out this week that we now have provision for education other than at school for primary-aged children. Now, that’s a problem for any country. And, to my mind, we've seen some very good practice in Monmouthshire. We work with schools there. We go in at year 10, and the conversation is had in terms of—. We at the moment—don't get ahead of yourself, Jude—only work in a couple of vocational streams. Our view would be that, as soon as we can, we would like to get in further with VCSEs and look at other areas. But my understanding, and I am happy to be corrected on this, is that at the moment VCSEs are not going to be mandated to schools. They're going to be strongly recommended.

So, I believe what we will be faced with is some schools that will be absolutely keen as mustard on this, and they will give the opportunity to a variety of young people they have. I also know that we are engaged with schools, predominantly at the moment that have said they cannot afford provision for those individual children. And especially, we had somebody come in this morning with reference to—. They couldn't afford what we were offering to provide, due to the fact that those children, actually, were quite academic kids, and they were quite happy with the fact that they were going to be on the academic train.

So, there is also an approach to the fact that do we only get the children to look at vocational stuff when they're not deemed to be, maybe, the A to C-grade learners. Do you see what I mean? Or, we have learners that have behavioural challenges. And I am not having a pop at the teachers in any stretch or form, but do we get them, because, 'Actually we just need them out of the classroom'? Faith started the answer by saying that it's a heady cocktail of all three, Vaughan, really.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:04Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

I'm interested in not just the cocktail but the practical side of, 'Here's how you could try to deal with that in a way that doesn't try to apportion blame to actors in the system, but recognises that if it's centred around the interests of the learner and doing the right thing for the learner, it's ultimately going to be the right thing for the country to help them fulfil their potential.' How do you look at what we recognise is a problem, and how do you get to be better? And it's that opportunity to say, 'This is what appears to work.' I recognise that getting people in the same room always helps to do that. But if there's more that isn't in your evidence that you think would be helpful, and in particular, when we get to later on—. We've heard lots of people talking about the Cardiff commitment, and I'll finish with this point, Chair.

Lots of people talk about the Cardiff commitment and there are similar schemes in other local authorities. I think Educ8 referenced this in your evidence, as well. But about why you think the Cardiff commitment works, and then how you could get to—whether it's the Cardiff commitment or something similar—. You can't call it the 'Cardiff commitment' in Swansea and expect it to work. But how do you get something where the powers, soft and hard, that a local authority has with their employers and their schools can be used in a way to give people the widest range of opportunities for progress? And you may not be able to answer all that now, but I think it would be useful for us to understand why you think that scheme works and how that, as part of the answer, could be rolled out.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:06Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Jude Holloway

Just if I may, Faith and I, as we've said, caveat, three or four times, are managing the outcome and then finding learners when they come to us. We would not have the opportunity regularly to speak to anybody in pre-16 training. I've spoken to a couple of headteachers and actually they're probably the best placed people and the best educated people to be answering some of this. We can add our suggestions in there, Vaughan, but ultimately we're not experts in pre-16 delivery, and maybe we need to have all those people in the same room, as I said.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:08Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

That's not an unhelpful suggestion in itself.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:08Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Jude Holloway

Okay, there we are. I'm getting my caveats in, you see.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:08Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Thank you. Thanks, Vaughan. Right. Next we have Cefin, please.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:08Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

I'm going to be asking my questions in Welsh, so you'll need your headsets.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:08Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Mae'r cwestiwn cyntaf ynglŷn â darpariaeth cyfrwng Cymraeg. Mae tystiolaeth yn dangos bod cymaint o bobl ifanc sydd wedi cael addysg trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg ddim yn dewis llwybr prentisiaethau oherwydd nad yw'r ddarpariaeth yna ar gael drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg am wahanol resymau. Pam ŷch chi'n credu dyw hi ddim ar gael drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg? Ydych chi'n credu bod y dadansoddiad yna yn un cywir, a pham nad ydyn nhw'n dilyn ymlaen i ddilyn prentisiaethau drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg?

11:09Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Faith O'Brian

I'll start off on this one. Cambrian Training is based in mid Wales. Thirty to 40 per cent of our staff actually are Welsh speakers. The majority of our provision can be delivered in Welsh. I would say, on engaging with apprenticeships and signing them up, we speak to employers and we speak to the apprentices and we encourage in every way, shape and form we can to have that provision, if they are a first-language Welsh speaker or if they are a GCSE A-C Welsh speaker, to have their apprenticeship delivered fully in Welsh. We have found over the last three years that we have real challenges with both the employer and the individual wanting to take up the apprenticeship in Welsh. So, it's available, but they don't want to take it up.

What they do want to do is they want—and bearing in mind that we delivering manufacturing and hospitality. So, hospitality is customer facing. What they do want to do is that they want to take up the apprenticeship vocally, so they want to speak in Welsh, they want to go through everything vocally in Welsh, but not the written word in Welsh. So, when they build their apprenticeship portfolio, they don't want to build their case studies, their reflection—they don't want to write in Welsh, they want to speak in Welsh. So, there is provision for that. We basically deliver the apprenticeship 30 per cent in Welsh, which is the verbal part, not the written. Does that make sense?

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:09Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Jude Holloway

I would say that, in our experience, we have a limited number of learners who come to us who would like to learn in Welsh, and for those who do we absolutely facilitate that. One of our biggest barriers is that, because of our apprenticeship portfolio, clearly we've got experts who deliver vocationally and we've got some experts that just do not have the Welsh medium themselves. So, they may have conversational Welsh, but certainly when you're talking about technical words and technical descriptions, trying to find those professionals in the country is really quite difficult in some areas.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:11Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Mae'r ail gwestiwn yn dilyn ymlaen. Rŷch chi wedi ei ateb, i raddau. Pam dŷch chi ddim yn credu bod dysgwyr yn ddigon hyderus i ddilyn cwrs llawn prentisiaeth? Dwi'n derbyn, Faith, y pwynt roeddech chi'n ei wneud eu bod nhw efallai'n gyfforddus i wneud gwaith llafar trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, ond pam ddim y gwaith ysgrifenedig? Oes unrhyw dystiolaeth gyda chi i'n helpu ni i ddeall pam mae hynny'n digwydd?

11:12Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Faith O'Brian

We recently had an Estyn inspection, and obviously this is something that we looked at in great detail. I'm going to go on the back of what Jude said: sometimes it's the technical side of it. So, last week, we had somebody write a menu in Welsh, in hospitality, and actually because of the—I don't speak Welsh, so I'm not sure of the detail of it, but because of the difference in the dialect for one of the starters—. It was the difference between 'snake' and something else. So, I think it's the confidence in the technical side of it and also the—. Where we say that some individuals, some apprentices, have a GCSE grade A to C, if they do have that grade C, are they confident in the written Welsh? Sometimes we have individuals who start a partial Welsh apprenticeship and they end up doing a full one, because their confidence grows and grows and grows. But, in answer to your original question, that's the initial barrier, it's their confidence.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:12Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

I guess in hospitality the oral interaction is really important—

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:13Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Faith O'Brian

Absolutely.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:13Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

—but we need to—

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:13Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Faith O'Brian

From both the employer and the apprentice. They're very keen for that to happen. It's a culture that we have in Wales. You go into a pub and you want to get the Welsh and the English.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:13Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Yes. But you do support the development of confidence in the written skills as well.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:13Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Faith O'Brian

One hundred per cent. Yes.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:14Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Okay. Diolch.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:14Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Thank you. Okay, we now have some questions from Natasha, please.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:14Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Thank you, Chair. The issue of transport has come up a lot. We speak a lot about it in this committee and it's come out a lot through the evidence that we've received as well. I wanted to ask, in your experience, how much of a consideration is transport and the cost associated with transport? Is it a barrier, or perhaps an issue, for learners, particularly when it comes to deciding to do an apprenticeship after school?

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:14Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Faith O'Brian

So, mid Wales; need I say any more? There's very limited transport in mid Wales. It's a huge consideration, but not only in mid Wales. If we take south Wales—. I'm talking hospitality. How many shifts in hospitality finish before 10.30 at night? I don't know if anybody's tried to get any form of transport from Cardiff to the Valleys after 10.30 at night—it's really, really difficult. There are safety concerns, especially for 16 to 19-year-olds, so, in terms of that, that is a real challenge and it's a huge consideration for individuals. The cost, obviously, is of consideration as well. Free transport would be brilliant for 16 to 19-year-olds employed, giving them the breadth of ability to attend—even though they are of employed status—the jobs. I think that would be really beneficial for them.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:14Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Jude Holloway

Yes, pretty much exactly the same. I think we've got a number of young apprentices who live rurally and we're relying on mums and dads to pick them up from bus stops, and we have a number of safeguarding concerns when you're talking about young people travelling later at night or in the dark, let's say, in the winter months.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:15Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

So, do you find the public transport issue is just an issue in rural areas or that it can be based in cities as well, such as Newport? I know that Cardiff is a bit more cosmopolitan—you have a few more links to it—but in places like Newport, Swansea, Bridgend, areas that perhaps aren't as large as Cardiff, but still have city status, they have better links. Is the same problem there as well, or just to a lesser level than perhaps—

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:15Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Faith O'Brian

A lesser level. I think it's dependent on the jobs that they are in and whether it's shift work. I don't think it's an issue nine to five—Cardiff, Newport, Swansea; it's not really an issue, but if you're looking at shift work and you go outside that nine to five, it then becomes an issue. Obviously, in mid and north Wales, it's an issue generally in terms of the availability of transport and the frequency.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:16Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Jude Holloway

The only other thing that we've experienced is the reliability of some of it. I'm not sure we can get that sorted today, but when you've got young people who are then on trains that have been cancelled and have to swap three, four or five times, if then there is any barrier to stop them getting their shoes on to get to work, that's not helpful.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:16Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Okay. I'm glad you mentioned barriers because that comes nicely to my next question. Obviously, you spoke about transport, but are there any other barriers, through your experience, that you feel that young apprentices in the future, or young aspiring apprentices do, in fact, face that you'd like to raise with the committee? We've just spoken about transport, but are there any issues that you think we may not be aware of, or any issues that are perhaps prevalent that aren't really brought to the forefront as often as you perhaps would like them to be?

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:16Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Faith O'Brian

I'm sure you're aware of them, so I don't think we're going to tell you anything that you're not aware of. So, obviously, apprenticeship wages, and that's very much dependent on the employer, because some employers look at apprenticeship wages and give the minimum wage for apprenticeships, and some actually top up and there's parity. Then, obviously, the Welsh language, especially in hospitality, it could potentially be a barrier, and—

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:17Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

How so? Sorry, just to elaborate for my knowledge—how would the Welsh language be a barrier in hospitality?

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:17Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Faith O'Brian

So, if you do have an individual who wants to participate in an apprenticeship in Welsh and the employer may not have that ability or doesn't condone that, that's where it becomes a barrier.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:17Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Thank you for the clarification, which I appreciate.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:18Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Faith O'Brian

Does that make sense?

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:18Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

It does, it does. What about the financial support that's available to them?

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:18Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Faith O'Brian

Do you want to talk about that?

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:18Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Jude Holloway

Yes, absolutely. So, one of the barriers that we've experienced with our younger learners is the effect of the barrier from home, parental support—and please don't ask me for great detail on this particular thing—but there is a belief or an expectation that if a child then starts an apprenticeship, that may well affect maybe what they can claim in terms of family credits and things like that. So, we've had quite a lot of push-back from parents, basically saying that they can't afford for their child to become an apprentice, which is bonkers, isn't it? And then unfortunately, that then, if they are being paid the national minimum wage for an apprentice, is a further barrier. So, that's really, financially, what we're facing. For independent providers to access any funding for young people for transport is nigh-on impossible. Colleges can—they've got access to that. If you're subbing—if you have a sub-contract, we don't—with an FE provision, it's slightly easier. But we have nothing to tap into to help our young people.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:18Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

At all?

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:19Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Jude Holloway

At all, that we have been able to access to this point.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:19Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Faith O'Brian

If I can just put that into a real-life situation. So, Cambrian Training run the skills competition for hospitality and recently, in January, it was in the International Convention Centre Wales in Newport. It's very much geared to colleges and colleges have transport funding to take their FE learners, who are doing hospitality skills, and book them into this competition. It's an amazing competition—it's brilliant. For apprentices, there is no funding available, and we do have apprentices who come from mid Wales and north Wales down to the ICC in Newport. Either the employer has to fund it or the apprentice has to fund it themselves, and it’s quite significant—we’re talking £30, £40 to go to a competition—and that’s where we don’t get the parity in terms of promoting apprenticeships, sectorally as well.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:19Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Jude Holloway

Following on from that, Faith, if you’ve got successful learners, which is exactly what you want, and they go to national, international skills competitions, that then becomes out of reach for a lot of learners. A number of training providers would pay for it themselves—

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:20Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Faith O'Brian

Yes.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:20Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Jude Holloway

—but again, there’s only a limited amount of resource.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:20Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Okay. And a final subquestion: what about the ability to actually secure the apprenticeship in the first place by a young person? Because we often hear about young people being encouraged to stay in school to continue their studies—people want to have backsides on seats—so actually securing that apprenticeship. And I appreciate the financial issues you mentioned—I’ve encountered it where many parents who come to me about it, so they’ve had to decline their children from doing an apprenticeship because it affects their benefits; I totally get it—but when it comes to actually getting an apprenticeship, I appreciate that you’re there, but in the first answer that you gave, you said that you can’t be everywhere.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:20Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Faith O'Brian

Unfortunately not.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:21Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

So, what do we do to secure apprenticeships with an employer for those people who you perhaps can’t reach? What’s the best way to probe that, and to look into that to make sure no child misses out?

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:21Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Jude Holloway

So, I think that comes from the drive from the employer to offer apprenticeships. We do lots of employer forums and we’ve got quite a lot of providers now that offer multiple apprenticeships, with not only just an apprenticeship for the duration of that apprenticeship—which would be 12 months’ study, 18 months’ study—it is a job, until they don’t want that job any further. So, I think the key thing here is really driving it through employers, because without employers there are no apprenticeships, because ultimately—stating the obvious now, guys—but it’s an employed status.

So, I think it’s a number of different approaches, but to actively encourage employers to want to take apprentices would be great. We have historically had incentives for them. That has had, certainly in certain areas for us—so an incentive for the employer to take on a young person—it has benefited in our areas. I am aware that in some other areas, it hasn’t been quite so beneficial, but for them to either have some form of funding that would offset salaries or offset something to encourage them to give that young person an opportunity would be great.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:21Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Okay. Thank you, Chair.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:22Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Thank you. I have some questions around data because in this committee, we always find there’s a shocking lack of it in everything we do. So, to what extent does a lack of published data that shows the trends of young people’s choices and destinations create limitations for the tertiary education sector in being able to plan future provision?

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:22Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Faith O'Brian

So, from my point of view, I don’t think it’s the amount of data that’s published; I think it’s the delay in data. There seems to be a lag. As an independent provider, we have to provide data to Medr now within eight weeks. So, there’s an eight-week lag for us to provide data as part of our contract management, yet some of the data that's published is over 12 months old. So, by the time they get that data, analyse it and publish it, there’s a lag. Obviously, I work with the regional learning and skills partnerships in mid and north Wales, and sometimes we’re looking through the observatory of data—we’re talking 2022-23, 2023-24. The whole vehicle for that is to look at future skills, so if we’re trying to look at future skills and we’ve got data that’s two or three years old, it’s nigh-on impossible to see how we navigate that path to get what we need.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:22Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Who do you think should be responsible for improving that data collection?

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:23Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Faith O'Brian

I think you need to look at each tertiary institute and look at what data is being collected, because I think we need to look at better tracking for learners, the progression for learners. So, it’s what data is being collected, how quickly it can be collected then by, say, Medr, and then how quickly it can be validated and published.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:23Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Jude Holloway

The only data that we would—well, we have access to other data—but the only data that’s freely accessible to us, really, is how many schools in south Wales, how many pupils, how many free school meals, how many points. So, actually, for us to be able to plan, it may be easier if there is any way of data being collected once VCSEs are rolled out, so then we would somehow be able to plot the likelihood of this percentage of learners moving forward into the vocational area because you've had this many do VCSEs. It’s a very tenable link, that.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:24Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Faith O'Brian

I also think it needs to be consistent; so, across all of the institutes, the data that’s measured is consistent data.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:24Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Cefin, did you want to come in here?

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:24Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Yes. I'm just going to come in on something completely different. Have you finished with these data questions?

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:24Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Yes.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:25Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Cwestiwn cyffredinol yn y Gymraeg. Pa mor anodd yw hi i ffeindio cyflogwyr sydd yn barod i gymryd prentisiaethau ymlaen? Ydy hwnna yn anhawster cynyddol? A ydych chi wedi gweld hynny yn gwaethygu dros y flwyddyn neu ddwy ddiwethaf? Dwi wedi siarad â chyflogwyr, ac maen nhw yn dweud wrthyf i eu bod nhw ddim yn gallu fforddio cymryd prentisiaethau ymlaen rhagor oherwydd y toriadau sydd wedi bod i'r rhaglen prentisiaethau gan y Llywodraeth. A ydych chi wedi gweld hynny hefyd?

11:25Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Faith O'Brian

From my point of view, it's not about taking on apprenticeships; it's about taking on any staff. I think they've cut all of their staff recruitment. Especially in hospitality, they're really keen to take on apprentices, 16 to 19-year-olds. It does come with some positive benefits for them and there's an element of skills and support, and we engage with the likes of the Celtic Manor Resort, et cetera. They are very keen, through their apprenticeship academy, to support and recruit apprentices.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:25Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Jude Holloway

Where we've seen an absolute direct impact is within the apprenticeship area of hair and beauty, to give you an example, a solid part of the foundational economy for Wales. Over the last three months, we have seen a sharp decline due to rises in national insurance, and small and micro businesses have basically said, 'We can't afford anybody'. As you can imagine, apprentices come with a need for training; they don't come fully formed, they can't learn by osmosis, they're not ready to cut hair on day one. These people that own these businesses need people in and earning money in this economic climate. So, we have seen a reduction. The will is still there, I think, the will and the want, especially in these more traditional apprenticeships. It's just the affordability of any additional person.

Dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg wedi'i gyhoeddi11:26Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol

Ocê, diolch.

11:27Gwylio #Cofnod swyddogol