Climate Change, Environment, and Infrastructure Committee

Croeso nol i'r pwyllgor. Rŷn ni'n symud at ein pedwaredd eitem ni, sef ail sesiwn dystiolaeth heddiw ar y Bil Gwasanaethau Bysiau (Cymru). Rŷn ni'n mynd i glywed oddi wrth y sector gymunedol dros yr awr nesaf yma. Felly, yn cynrychioli'r sector dwi'n croesawu'n gynnes Gemma Lelliott, sy'n gyfarwyddwr Cymru gyda Chymdeithas Cludiant Cymunedol Cymru—croeso; hefyd, Caroline Wilson, sy'n rheolwr cyffredinol gyda Trafnidiaeth Gymunedol y Ddraig Werdd; Richard Davies MBE, Trafnidiaeth Gwasanaethau Brys Gwirfoddol, neu VEST yw'r acronym Saesneg; a Beverley Mather, sy'n rheolwr gyda Deial i Deithio Sir Ddinbych. Croeso i'r pedwar ohonoch chi. Mae gennym ni awr, felly mi awn ni'n syth iddi, ac mi wna i wahodd Carolyn i gychwyn gyda'i chwestiynau.

Good morning, everyone. While the CTA's paper raises some specific issues, which we will discuss later, in general, is this a good Bill, do you think, for community transport and has input from the sector during its implementation been taken on board? What are your views on it?

Good question. Do you want me to start?

Can I say as well before we start that we have around about an hour? Don't feel obliged, all of you, to answer every question, because we'll struggle to get everything into an hour. But if you do want to come in, just indicate and I'll invite you to come in. Gemma, you wanted to kick off.

Lovely—diolch, Chair. Thank you, Carolyn, it's a really good question. I think it's a Bill that has been a long time in coming, and there's been an awful lot of work that the Welsh Government have done in preparing it and trying to ensure representation from voices across the sector, which has been very welcome.

I think what we've seen in the preparation of the Welsh Bill, in comparison with a similar Bill that’s being brought through the UK Government at the moment for England, is that there has been a real focus from Welsh Government officials on ensuring that community transport is part of those conversations, and that's been really welcome. So, it reflects what we saw in 'Llwybr Newydd' when that was published in 2021—that third sector transport is alongside the other, more mainstream forms of transport for the first time here in the country, which is where we would hope and expect to be.

In terms of the implementation, I think that's a really important question, because there is so much potential for community transport to do more and to be more actively involved in meeting more people's needs, and we hope that this legislation is going to help us in creating a stronger foundation for that to develop from.

Thank you. Would anybody else like to come in on that?

There's consensus. That's good.

Transport for Wales will largely be responsible for delivering the Welsh Ministers' duties. Are you confident that it has the human and financial resources as a body, as well as the governance structures required to deliver and, subsequently, operate the new system effectively?

No.

We like one-word answers as well.

Do you want to lead on that?

I don't think they've got the capacity. They haven't got the knowledge as to what exactly community transport is able to do and what they can do. I think they need to be careful with that and make sure that they use the knowledge that people have got in their localities, because they're the people on the ground. We're the people on the ground, working with passengers day to day, who've got no other access to any other sort of transport. So, the Ministers, the people at TfW, haven't got those people on the ground.

How do they do that, then?

Do you operate through local authorities, or is it the passengers that directly contact you? Is it the passengers that know what's needed, is it you that knows what's needed, or is it the local authorities? Where would they get that information from?

That's such an important thing for us, I think, and Caroline's point is really key, because TfW have invested a lot of time and energy in trying to build their capacity around bus. They recognised a number of years ago that they had a huge amount to do on the rail development, and they've started to make real strides on that, and we've seen that coming through in terms of the changes in the network. They were not a multimodal organisation, and they have, I think, gone some way towards getting to where they need to be in order to be that for the future, in order to be an effective delivery partner to the Welsh Government.

I think the thing for us that we're definitely seeing is a disconnect between the communities that want to use the transport, who are not able to use the public transport network at the moment, and the services that are currently being provided and that we think could be provided in the future, and having those voices, that representation, both from the community transport network and the passengers and the communities that they work alongside.

All of our operators are independent organisations. Some of them receive a small amount of core funding from local authorities via the bus services support grant, but not all. That varies from year to year. It's not implemented transparently or consistently across the country, and that is one of our big questions, I think, as we progress further with this Bill and thinking about what the secondary legislation and the guidance is going to come alongside it: how local authorities will have the ability and the capacity to work alongside TfW, and tap into the incredible resource—knowledge and expertise—that our operators have on the ground. That is really, really important.

If we want a network that meets more people's needs, we have to talk to the people that want to use those services, and not just our members, the wider third sector partners that are embedded in these communities that work really closely with people who are disconnected, vulnerable, unable to make those connections with the places and the people that they love. We need those voices to be louder in the development of the network plan and the regional transport plans that are going to directly feed into that, because, otherwise, the bus network is just going to be a copy-and-paste exercise, and we'll end up paying more for something that still doesn't meet our needs.

Are you concerned that CJCs, who are supposed to be delivering the regional transport plans, have not got that expertise and that local connection?

Yes, very concerned. That's something we've been feeding through in the evidence that we've submitted to each of the CJCs on their consultations.

I think Beverly wants to come in.

I just think, for community transport, we all work differently. No two community transport works the same, no funding's the same, but you work to what's needed in that area that you cover. I think that is a big part of needing to have our say—the fact that you've got to be able to realise that we're not Arriva where there's a bus timetable, they go round, they pick everybody up; we have to work totally different to that. I think funding, for us, is a big part. Because my worry is section 19 isn't going to be—. It says that it's not going to be affected, but how is the funding going to be for us as a whole? Because already we're 25 per cent less than last year.

We'll be coming on to individual sections. Heledd just briefly wants to come in as well, and we'll come back to Carolyn.

Yes, if I may, Chair, because I think we've gone to that section. If I could just go on one point.

Byddaf i'n siarad yn Gymraeg. Os caf i ofyn i chi, felly, jest o ran y cyfyngiadau cynlluniau trafnidiaeth rhanbarthol, fedrwch chi ymhelaethu bach ar hynny, ar y risgiau mae'r rhain yn eu creu? Jest fel ein bod ni yn cael hollol eglurder ar yr adran yna.

Yes, absolutely. I think what we identified in the feedback that we've been supplying to the CJCs—I'm just putting the finishing touches to the Cardiff capital region paper now—is firstly a complete lack of appreciation of the needs of disabled people, and that's a real worry, because disabled people make 38 per cent fewer journeys than non-disabled people, and that statistic hasn't really changed for more than 10 years across the whole of the UK.

Wales has got more than 20 per cent of our population that have a disability or live with some kind of life-limiting condition, and very often community transport is the only accessible and inclusive option for people to make the journeys they need to make if they have additional mobility support needs. So the fact that that is completely missing across the whole of the country makes me worry about what is then going to be fed through from the CJCs to the delivery plan that the Welsh Government have that statutory responsibility to compile. But also the lack of connection with the community transport sector and the communities that they support in putting together those regional transport plans in the first place.

There was so little public engagement, and what public engagement there was was basically inaccessible. Unless you are a policy professional that has hours and hours available to you, it was an impossible task to wade through all four of those documents and find the things that you needed to feed back on, and we haven't had a meaningful opportunity to feed into them. That worries me, because the Welsh Government is going to have to rely on those plans in order to draw up their network plan.

They do work very closely with local authorities. I think they were calling them sprints for a while; I don't know if they're still calling them the same thing. Scrums, sorry—the scrum groups at the regional local authority meetings. I was involved in a lot of those when they first came into place, but because it's much more operational, I'm not in those meetings anymore, and community transport therefore is not represented, because our operators don't have the capacity or the ability to get involved with meetings at that level. It's a real concern.

I think also when we talk about older people, issues of loneliness and isolation are really strong, especially when we look at rural communities across Wales. I think there is a real worry, and we've had this conversation with the older people's commissioner. I know they're coming for an evidence session later through this process. I think their evidence is going to be really key in ensuring that we have a network that meets our needs at every life stage. This legislation has got enormous potential to create a more equitable network for us across the nation, and it's making sure, I suppose, that we have that effective holding the feet to the fire. Is it going to be as good as it needs to be? Is it going to set that framework for us then to guide the CJCs and the local authorities in how they implement it in partnership with TfW?

Thank you. Back to you, Carolyn.

In each region do you have an umbrella representative or organisation to represent? No. Okay. And you're all individual. And do you all rely on volunteer drivers? No. Okay. You get paid as well. And are you able to expand, should it be necessary going forward, to fill some of the gaps, do you think? Or do you think it would be difficult?

With the funding that we get at the minute it wouldn't be—

And you said you'd had a cut in funding of how much, sorry?

Twenty-five per cent this year. We've actually had less this year than what we got last year.

And is that through the local authority, who deliver the bus services support grant?

Through the BSSG, yes.

It's the same for us in VEST. We're the only community transport in Cardiff and we still haven't been given our budget yet.

And our BSSG is all just based on kilometre, so it's 0.07 or something per live kilometre. So you don't get anything for your dead kilometres, even though you've had to go out from base to the first passenger pickup.

Thank you. The Bill does not include any provision for statutory guidance. The Cabinet Secretary has explained that he has taken the view that non-statutory guidance will be sufficient. Do you agree, and are there any areas where guidance, statutory or otherwise, would be welcome?

I think it's going to be really important that we have clear guidance, whether it's statutory or not, around how CJCs and local authorities and TfW implement this legislation, and I think we will have a huge risk to the sector as a whole, not just community transport. I think the whole public transport sector will be opened up to risk if there isn't clear and transparent guidance, and about that consistency of approach across the whole of Wales.

I think, particularly for us, the issue that comes up that members contact me about more often than not is the funding, and having that clarity and transparency about what funding is going to be available. I would imagine we're going to talk a little bit later on in the session about some of the specific provisions in the Bill, and I think there are some questions there around how that cuts across to us and our core issue of funding.

I think the big thing for me is with regard to the expectations about consultation as we look at implementation of the delivery plan. One of the things that I highlighted in my evidence was the lack of expectation that the Welsh Government and TfW will be expected to consult with people who are not using the bus network at the moment. It was really positive to see—and that was something that we pushed really hard for—that there would be a line in there about engaging with passengers, and that's really positive that that's been included, as well as people who have the potential to use the bus network. There are a lot of people who don't use the bus network at the moment and don't see it as something that is available to them. So, we think there needs to be guidance in place that there is an expectation that consultation—. Personally, I would like to go a long way beyond consultation and think about co-producing that network plan in partnership with the people who are going to use the services, because that is in line with the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015—this expectation of developing things in partnership with the community that's going to use them so it works now and it works in the future as well.

Who would be best placed to do that?

In terms of the co-production, I think third sector partners would be best placed to do that, especially when we're thinking about those smaller, local, rural demand-responsive services, which is where our members excel. Around this table, we've got decades of experience, and as organisations—sorry, I don't mean that critically—we have organisations that have been part of delivering effective transport services for 20, 30 years at a time. There are not many commercial organisations that can say the same, and they've been doing it with a non-profit motivation. They receive very little—. Out of the £25 million annual bus service support grant allocation that the Welsh Government gives to local authorities, less than 5 per cent of that goes to the community transport sector. That is the only core funding that comes to community transport organisations, and it's not done transparently or consistently across the country; every region does it differently.

So, all of those organisations that have been delivering effective services and meeting people's needs for 10, 20, 30 years at a time have been doing that at the same time as finding money from somewhere constantly, whether it's crowdfunding in local campaigns, putting out donation campaigns on Facebook, raising money via other funding streams, going to the UK Government or the Welsh Government to say 'Is there any chance you've got some underspend?', because it's constantly reaching down the back of the sofa to try and find money to keep these vital services going, while at the same time we've had these big commercial companies running services that just drive past a disabled person because it's too much hassle to stop and put the ramp down. So, we need that consistency, we need that engagement, and the organisations that are most embedded in communities dealing with and supporting vulnerable people are third sector organisations—so, the Welsh Council for Voluntary Action, the county voluntary councils network, and so on.

Thank you.

What percentage are medical transports?

The last research that we did, and I'll leave these guys to talk about—

Yes, we need to focus on the Bill as well.

Okay. Sorry, Chair. I'll stop going off on tangents.

It's so interesting.

As interesting as it is, yes, absolutely.

The last research we did across Wales, which was in 2023-24, more than 60 per cent of our members reported their journeys were health transport.

That's interesting.

So, how effective do you think the Bill will be in supporting rural services?

That's a good question. So, rural operators—what were your thoughts on this?

Well, I can't see—. Where I live—I operate mainly in Pembrokeshire and south Ceredigion—I can't see much changing from what's there presently, which, quite honestly, is diabolical. The journeys that we offer to people, those are desperately needed every day of the week, otherwise those people won't be able to go and get their shopping, get to their medical appointments or anything like that, and I can't see the public bus services actually increasing.

We recently had a phone call off a gentleman whose mum, for her local bus, it would be half-a-mile walk from her house to the bus stop, and it's twice a day, nine o'clock in the morning and four o'clock in the afternoon. She couldn't go out for that length of time, and she couldn't get there. She couldn't get to the bus stop. She wouldn't be able to get to the bus stop in the morning, but she definitely wouldn't be able to get from the bus stop home with any shopping that she had. So, I don't see it being—.

I think, for me, the difference with having this Bill in comparison with the deregulated framework that we're in operating in at the moment is that the Welsh Government will be able to respond to this kind of feedback in a way that they're not able to at the moment. So, genuinely, I feel quite hopeful about this legislation and what it potentially could create for us. I think the bit that we're concerned about is more about the implementation, as we get down the line. But I think, for me, the structure of the legislation is sound. It's about putting more control in the hands of the people who are going to use the services, the Welsh Government hearing directly from constituents, linking with local authorities via the CJCs. I do genuinely feel really positively about it. I think it has an enormous amount of potential to improve from where we are now.

Okay.

Okay. Thank you. The last one from me, I think. Transport for Wales's written evidence says it's working with the CTA and local authorities to hold engagement sessions with CT operators in south-west Wales, because that's where it's going to start first, isn't it, the roll-out. So, how effective has Transport for Wales engagement been up to now with you?

I think, from a CTA point of view, they've made a real clear effort to engage with us as an organisation and to take our feedback on board in trying to shape where the opportunities are. We co-hosted a number of sessions before Christmas where we gave operators the opportunity to hear from them directly, and we've got an in-person session now in Carmarthen in three weeks' time, which is going to be focused on operators that are within that south-west zone. So, there is a real drive to hear from CT operators and to involve us as a sector. So, I think we want to ensure that that is consistently applied across the whole of the country, as we develop through this process.

Are you an umbrella organisation for all of them across Wales?

Yes. We're the membership body for the community transport sector.

Thank you.

Thank you very much. Janet, on to you.

Thank you. The explanatory memorandum says the Bill sets out a definition of local bus services similar to the existing definition under section 2 of the Transport Act 1985. Is the definition set out in section 1 appropriate, or is there an opportunity to update this definition especially for Wales? The example is the 15-mile limit on the distance between stops reasonable in deep rural areas of Wales. Personally, I don't think it's appropriate.

It's a good question. Yes. Caroline.

Yes, you're right—the 15 miles isn't far enough, to be honest, because if you think about the centre of Pembrokeshire, you've got more than 15 miles to get to any major—. Even living in the middle—and I think Llys-y-frân is the middle of Pembrokeshire—it's more than 15 miles to get to any centre where there's a decent shop or medical facilities, et cetera, et cetera. So, it's not good.

One of the things that we heard from the previous evidence session was that there's so much changing, that maybe just sticking with what we have at the minute is better, because people at least know what that is. Is there an element of changing too much at one time, or do you feel that it's sufficiently justified, actually, to amend it?

I think you've got to do it, particularly in rural areas, as a slower—. Yes, don't go too fast, and implement things slowly, and make sure you talk to the people on the ground, because what you need to do is talk to the people that are there doing the services, and making sure they all engage. Some of the engagement things that TfW have done have all been in the south of the county, particularly in Pembrokeshire. There's nothing above Narberth, heading north. I think there was something in St David's, but nothing in Fishguard, Maenclochog, Crymych, where you've still got people living, there are still bus services, or not, as the case might be.

It's all south of the Landsker, is it?

Yes.

Yes, the down-belows.

Yes.

Okay. Diolch.

Then nothing in Ceredigion.

Nothing in Ceredigion. Well, yes, quite.

Because I operate in Ceredigion as well.

Of course, in both, yes.

I work across counties. I think Ceredigion is one of the last ones that's going to be brought in.

Mid Wales is, yes.

So, it's like I'm going to be in this quandry.

Of course, yes, you cover both. I mean, there's something there, actually, about where your organisations cover more than one proposed region. That's going to be an added complication for you, I would imagine, isn't it?

Well, luckily, years ago, we pointed out the complications because you had to apply to the different local authorities for your concessionary fares to come back, and we said, 'This is absolutely ridiculous', because we were getting a different fare from Ceredigion than we were from Pembrokeshire. So, we talked to Pembrokeshire, and they spoke to the people in Ceredigion, and we now do it all under Pembrokeshire and everybody's happy—it works, it's fine. You know, something that actually works cross-border—fantastic. So, we hope that that will stay because we don't want that changing.

But there's a risk that some of that might be unpicked, then, under the new regime.

Yes, potentially.

And that's not clear at the moment.

No. I mean, even if there's an intention to carry on, the staggered timeline of introducing this might disrupt things as well. Okay. That's an interesting point. Thank you. Janet.

Your paper says it appreciates the clear delineation and welcome clarity resulting from the definition of flexible and standard local bus services. That's in section 3. Can you elaborate on this and outline how the Bill represents an improvement on the current approach?

I think there's always been, for me anyway, a lack of clarity in terms of how people perceive flexible bus services, and we've seen a significant growth in demand-responsive flexible services in Wales over the recent couple of years. What we've found really interesting, because community transport is DRT—it is demand-responsive transport—and has been delivering that model for decades, is we've seen, since Bwcabus was introduced, before my time with CTA, and then more recently since the Fflecsi buses were introduced across Wales, that shift towards the digital demand-responsive model, and I think it's really positive that we will have a legislative framework that underpins that. We'd like to see more of a recognition both in the guidance that comes alongside this Bill and the regional transport plans that community transport is demand-responsive transport, and we don't need to have a separation between those two things. But we think it's going to be really helpful to have that clarity that we know that bus operators know, 'This is our timetabled route, this is our scheduled set of services, and this is our flexible model that we're able to create the opportunities to go outside of our standard A-to-B to go and pick people up.' And whether that is directly door-to-door, which is what most of these operators will do, or whether it's a kind of many-to-many kind of situation, I think having a legal framework for that in Wales that is Welsh led is a really positive step.

And what happens is, when we apply to the traffic commissioner for our permits and our routes, they then let the local bus companies know what we're doing. So, quite often you have those bus company managers coming to you and saying, 'What is it exactly you're doing?' Because I always had Martin Richards from Richards Brothers on my back, saying, 'You're pinching our—', and I'd say to him, 'No, we're not pinching any of your custom because you cannot physically do this, can you?' And we sat down, and we discussed it, and he said, 'No, we can't.' So, I said, 'Well, that's what we want to do—pick up those people. If they want to go on your services then to go elsewhere, they can, but we're the facilitator from the door to whatever.' And he was great then. I mean, when I had my torch through Cardigan, he was waving at me, so it must have worked. [Laughter.]

So, you also say the objectives set out in the Bill are welcome and clearly link back to the policy intention set out in the Wales transport strategy. I think you've already said this—because it says, 'Are you clear on how these will be interpreted, and do you believe the reporting requirements set out in section 20 are appropriate?' I think there's a lot of concern about the implementation out there.

There really is, yes. And I think, especially, there are some questions—I think it's in that section—about data and supplying data back to the Welsh Government, and one of the things, from just speaking to officials about it in preparation for this session, is understanding what the expectations are going to be from these organisations, because whether you've got paid staff or volunteers, we're talking about organisations that are extremely stretched. They have very limited capacity. They don't have the money to be able to bring in an additional administrator to gather data and supply it back. And our funding from the Welsh Government at the Community Transport Association has been significantly reduced in recent years. We don't have the capacity to do that for them, either. So, that implementation question is the really key one, because the objectives are absolutely what we were hoping to see. And it’s about how we make that work in practice, collaboratively across the sector. We’ve got the vision; we need to actually think about the collaboration that’s going to deliver it.

Thank you.

Okay, diolch yn fawr. Did you want to pick up on anything else, or have we covered the—

No, we've covered that section.

You're happy. Okay. Well, we'll come back to you then, Janet, if that's okay.

Okay. Your paper also raises concerns about the quality of regional transport plans, which the Welsh Ministers must have regard to in developing the Welsh bus network plan, and calls for a statutory—

I think—. Yes, we've covered that one earlier.

Oh, sorry.

We've covered that one earlier. What about services for older people, disabled people, those with protected characteristics? Is there enough in the Bill for you, to give you an assurance that they will be catered for?

I’ve just got some stats of what we at VEST have done, a service we’ve done for the past 12 months. We’ve got six buses that cover all of Cardiff, for the elderly and disabled who cannot use public transport. We carried out over 16,000 trips last year, just in Cardiff itself, and that's equivalent to just over 1,700 people who would not be attending medical appointments, rehabilitation, because they can’t physically use public transport. That’s just with six buses to cover just the city of Cardiff. So, we are stretched.

We’ve got a registration system with us, and, at the moment, we’ve got over 30,000 people registered with us, and we’ve got six vehicles to cover all that. So, you can just imagine our phone calls a day; we’re averaging about 600 to 700 calls a day, just two people, trying to manage to get to all these people. And, yes, it’s very frustrating when we’ve—. Sometimes, by 11 o’clock, people are phoning up, ‘I’ve got a medical appointment’, and I’m saying, ‘Sorry, I can’t help.’ And that’s not going to the hospitals; that’s just going to GP surgeries, dentists and rehab. So, we don’t even take people to out-patients.

So, is there anything in the Bill that's going to make that better, or—?

I don’t think there’s anything specific in there, personally. And, I think, the one thing that we identified in our paper that is a significant gap is the lack of focus on training for drivers across the public transport network, which we have seen in the English Bill, that there is going to be a statutory expectation that all drivers will have disability awareness training. We don’t see that in this Bill, and we’d like to see that included.

I think the focus seems to be more on just generally creating a legal framework that is going to improve the network for everybody, which, absolutely, we want to see. And I think what’s going to be really important, again, is focusing on the kinds of services that are going to be part of these franchise contracts, and how community transport, community-led organisations—. It’s not just community transport organisations; I think the small bus operators, the SME market, are incredibly important in Wales as well, because there’s not a huge amount of difference between them and the operators that you see alongside me today. We have people who are in the communities that they’re serving, who are delivering incredibly important services. They’re good employers. They create positive opportunities. They do an awful lot for their communities, in the same way that CT operators do.

In order to ensure that more disabled people’s needs are being met, I think that is likely to come through more in the secondary legislation and the guidance that needs to come alongside it, in order to ensure that those additional needs—. If we make a transport network that meets the needs of the most disabled, and the most vulnerable people in our community, it’s going to work for all of us.

Sure. I'm just interested as well in the role of local authorities, because the explanatory memorandum says that local authorities have the best understanding of local bus travel requirements in their area. You may dispute that, you may have a better one, but let's just take that for what it is. But, at the same time then, responsibility for planning and securing bus services are moving away from local authorities to Welsh Ministers. So, how do you think the role of local authorities looks in the Bill as it's drafted? Should they have a stronger role? Is what's being proposed appropriate, do you think?

It’s really interesting, and I think we’re still to see some of the detail emerge on that, in terms of the work alongside TfW as well, because TfW are going to be taking on a lot of this responsibility as delivery partners of the Welsh Government, in practice. We’ve already seen a significant number of transport professionals leave local authorities to go to work for TfW. So, that shift has been noticeable, and we’ve had a significant loss of expertise, also through austerity, I have to admit, where we've seen a lot of people who have retired or taken voluntary redundancy as a result of the impacts on local authority spend.

That means we've lost knowledge and expertise in the local authority transport team, at a time that we can't really afford to, and now I think there will be a real focus, and there needs to be a real focus, in terms of implementation, on TfW's colleagues, but the pool of transport professionals in Wales is not large. So, local authorities are very connected to their communities, and they work incredibly hard to make sure that they feed the expertise through and the demands that they get from residents, but they've always had their hands tied, in that they've only been able to commission those socially necessary routes that commercial operators are not going to be delivering. So, they'll be in a very different legislative position as a result of this Bill, and they'll be able to shape and determine a lot more what services will run where.

I think what we need to see is that direct connection back to those communities, so that the flow of information is really strong, because they shouldn't have to do it all on their own. We have this network of incredible experts that are delivering services daily. We need to see that commitment to having that information fed through into network planning, and that direct engagement with providers, so that we can ensure—. We're thinking about a contract package for Denbighshire, for example, and what that might need to look like. What we've seen in practice is Fflecsi routes being commissioned with commercial providers from outside of Denbighshire coming in and running buses with nobody on them, or being sat in a car park because they haven't got any calls, and the community transport provider is turning people away because they don't have enough capacity to be able to meet the need. So, if there was a better connection there, and we had more of an opportunity for CT operators to get involved with running more of those services, or, as the Bill specifies, relying on community bus services that already exist so as to not disrupt the network that is already meeting people's needs, hopefully this legislation will support that in a way that we don't have at the moment.

And you'd have thought that some of the lessons that happened should have been learnt when Bwcabus failed, and how many millions were spent on that. With some of the Fflecsi things that are happening now, the lessons should have been learnt.

Okay. Diolch yn fawr. Heledd, do you want to come in?

So, how do we ensure that? Because, you've said 'hopefully'. It doesn't inspire confidence when you're saying 'hopefully'. How do we ensure that that is the case, because as you say, with expertise being lost, local authorities may not have that knowledge at present? How do you ensure that really community-focused solutions, which are needed, really come through here?

I think the guidance is going to be really important, and that's where I suppose that question around whether it's advisory guidance or statutory guidance is going to be key. Not having any guidance at all is a real worry, because they will default to the easiest possible path. They will default to copying and pasting what currently exists, because they don't have the time and the capacity to do it otherwise.

So, we saw that with the implementation of the well-being of future generations Act. I was in a local authority at that time, and until there was a kind of push, with consequences that you have to do this, this is a statutory responsibility, it was seen as a tick-box exercise and a nice to have. This cannot be 'nice to have', if we want it to work in the way that it is intended. I think it's a very positively drafted piece of legislation that has a clear intention to improve the bus network. If we want to see that happen in practice, I think we need to see very clear expectations set out from the Welsh Government, from yourselves, that this is how we need to see it implemented, that we need that direct pathway back to communities, and how those voices are going to be recognised and heard in shaping what that network plan looks like.

Thank you. So, looking at the Bill, it simply refers to local bus service contracts. It's not specific in terms of type of contract. Much of the narrative is around franchise, but actually there's nothing specifically in the Bill about that. The Cabinet Secretary told us that that was because he wished to have as much flexibility as possible. Is that welcome, in your view, or would that worry you?

I mean, we've been quite positive throughout the process at CTA, from a Community Transport Association point of view, that franchising seems like a positive approach. We've got no real positive or negative feelings. I know that the Confederation of Passenger Transport have pushed for a different model of franchising and a different kind of contract, because they think that's more effective. We don't particularly have a position one way or another. For us it's been much more about creating the legislative framework that's going to support more community-led development, and we think that this has got the potential to do that.

I think there is still—. Because of that greater flexibility, it does create a bit of uncertainty for us as a sector, that we don't know—does that apply to the contracts that are currently being delivered by community transport organisations? How is that going to affect services that are running in communities that are not part of a contracted package? How will the franchising packages be implemented in order to ensure that SME and community-led organisations will be able to bid meaningfully and be part of those competitive exercises?

And what about capacity to do that?

Capacity is an enormous challenge. Our sector is so incredibly stretched. When you compare the commercial bus operators, they're still in some places 60 per cent, 70 per cent of pre-COVID passenger levels. There is nobody in the community transport network that would tell you the same. Most of my members are at least at 100 per cent capacity—100 per cent of pre-COVID levels—and a lot of them are significantly higher.

That's interesting.

The demand has grown hugely.

We're aware that, for the global figure, we're not back to pre-COVID levels, although other parts of the UK seemingly have returned.

Yes.

But you're saying that you certainly have as a sector.

It's huge. Huge.

A 25 per cent increase.

Do you think that it's because of confidence? I've heard that a friendly bus driver is really important. So, confidence in knowing that you can get from A to B, that if you turn up, the bus will turn up. Do you think that that's a big thing?

Briefly.

Sixty per cent is medical appointments, you said, so—. What do you think it is? Why are the community—

Necessity, maybe. It's the only way to get there.

Yes, I think that necessity is a big part of it; confidence is a huge part of it; reliability. Some of the quotes we've had: 'It's a lifesaver', 'It's just a relief.' We had one passenger, who has recently started travelling on one of our buses in the Valleys, and she said, having to rely on the public transport network, she'd decided that she would rather die of cancer than try to make that journey any more. That's the kind of story that we hear from passengers. That's not universal. There are lots of fantastic bus drivers on commercial services and there are lots of services that work incredibly well, but there are lots of places where we don't have bus or community transport. In south Gwynedd there's a huge gap, and in the places where community transport does exist, the capacity is constrained and therefore the ability to get involved with contract packages in the future is going to be a big piece of work for us in supporting the sector to get to where they need to be to be able to bid for those contracts.

So, you've said that there's not enough clarity around how contracts will be operated from your perspective. So, what do you want to see from Government then, or what could there be in the Bill that provides that? Is it guidance or some sort of associated document?

Definitely guidance to local authorities, so we can then work with them more. And it's all about the clarity, so that we know, when we go to them, that they know exactly what we're talking about and for us to liaise more with them. There seems to be a bit of a disconnect at times, because they are busy doing the main bus routes, et cetera. And they're just like, ‘Yes, community transport is just a small niche on the side’, not realising actually the number of people we are helping.

So, has the Government responded to that request? Are you feeling that they're hearing your plea and that they're looking at addressing that?

I think, yes, the bus and community transport team in the Welsh Government have shown a real drive to try and take that feedback on board. I worry about their capacity, personally, the size of that team in delivering such an ambitious programme of change. I don't think they have enough capacity in the team to be able to do everything that we're expecting them to do as a country. So, I would welcome more focus from them and more of an awareness. And what I will say, with recent changes, is that we've got much more of an interest from officials now who are working in that team to get involved with community transport. We're organising some visits for them to come out and meet some of our members. And we're looking at how we can sync that across the zones, which is really positive. And we need to see that backed up by the guidance then that comes through.

Is there a question to be asked about why it has taken until now for that to happen?

I think that that would be a very good question, yes.

Okay, one that we as a committee may ask.

Yes.

Okay. Diolch yn fawr. Carolyn, we'll come to you next.

Just regarding the information and data you touched on earlier, providers with section 19 community transport permits may be required to provide information both to the Welsh Ministers and the general public under sections 25 and 27 respectively. And CTA have said that's unreasonable. I think they're saying that they will be used to help develop the Welsh bus network plan. That's the idea, so that they can gather that information when building the network. So, again, can you just let me know your concerns, if that's okay?

Yes, absolutely. I think my question around that is the proportionality, and especially when we think about section 19 services. They are largely completely independent of the Welsh Government and local authorities. The permits that they operate under, a lot of them apply for those through the CTA—they don't even engage with the traffic commissioner in order to secure those permits. So, the data that operators hold around delivering those services is generally only held locally, and we're talking about, in a lot of places, hyperlocal, small organisations that rely on a small number of paid staff, if they have any paid staff at all. So, it's understanding the level of expectation and the level of support that will be put on offer in order to make sure that it is reasonable and proportionate. Because we can't do that for them. We don't have the capacity to do that, unless the Welsh Government wants to resource us to do that in partnership, which we'd be very happy to explore.

It's making sure that we're not putting an undue burden on our operators to supply data that, actually, meaningfully, the Welsh Government is going to have very limited use for, because section 19 services are not available to members of the general public; they are only available to members of those schemes. That's part of the legislation that applies to running those services.

So, for section 22, we think it would be much more reasonable—. Those are bus services in another name; it's another format for it. So, supplying data, operators already supply data to their local authorities as part of those services, and it would be reasonable and not unexpected to supply data under those circumstances.

Thank you.

There we are. Okay, thank you. Janet.

Yes. Section 34 establishes a local authority power to provide

'financial assistance in connection with the provision of local bus services'.

Are you clear on its purpose and effect from the CT sector's perspective, given that the Bill more generally transfers the planning and funding of bus services to the Welsh Ministers?

That's a really good question, Janet. I think the wording in the Bill is that local authorities have the ability to provide funding, and that is unclear to me, how that's going to work in practice. At the moment, local authorities—. I've already mentioned that the BSSG is a very small amount of funding that comes via local authorities to the CT network, and it's not done in a way that's consistent or transparent across the country. So, we see quite big disparities in terms of how that's applied and how much funding is available. It's also a very small amount of funding, which doesn't remotely cover the cost of delivering CT at the moment.

We don't know how that then is going to work in practice as these zones are rolled out and contracts are developed. So, we're anticipating that these franchise contracts, if they go down the franchising route, will be at least five-year contracts to deliver bus services. That will create a lot of stability and a lot of certainty for the operators that are running those services, and that's a really, really good thing. We think that's fantastic.

However, if then the Welsh Government is simultaneously relying on bus services that are not part of those contracts, and the only funding that's going to be available will be via the local authorities, what funding is that going to be? How is it going to be delivered? Is it going to be annual? Is it going to be in line with the updated funding code of practice? We don't know any of that at the moment. So, a multi-year funding agreement for services that are outside of contracts would be essential, in my opinion, to ensure that we don't unintentionally create a two-tier system for the bus services across the country.

Okay. And how does your not-for-profit model play out in terms of some of this funding stuff? Because you wanted to be put, finally, on a similar level, if you like, or an equitable level, with other models.

I think it's really important for us to note, especially—. I went to a learner travel summit that the Cabinet Secretary attended on Friday, along with Lynne Neagle MS, and we were talking there about the challenge that the Welsh Government and local authorities have in commissioning services. Bus services are expensive, and commercial organisations have a profit motivation. Community transport does not. So, we're legally prevented from making a profit on any of the services that we provide. We can only ever charge a full-cost recovery model. And very often, full-cost recovery is constrained because, if you are receiving BSSG, for example, and then you bid for a contract, you might have to subtract amounts from the contract bid that you put together to reflect the fact that you're already receiving some form of support from the Welsh Government, even if that doesn't then mean that you end up covering all the costs of delivering that service.

So, there are a lot of unseen shenanigans that happen in order to make sure that operators are able to deliver services. And very often, these are children with additional learning needs having the ability to get to school, people being able to make their health appointments and not being stuck, communities in rural parts of the country not being left behind. So, finding that mechanism, I think, is going to be really important, and finding that equitable point where—. Not-for-profit organisations have had to scrabble in order to continuously provide this level of service, and they do it incredibly well, but we are on a funding treadmill, and it does take a huge amount of time and capacity and expertise. We provide as much support as we can, but these guys have had to develop a set of expertise which commercial organisations don't have to worry about. Obviously, they have other things that they have to be concerned with; keeping shareholders happy is not a problem that we have. But whether it's about the contracts, whether it's about the funding mechanisms, creating an equitable framework for community transport organisations to be part of delivering services, in the way we know they have the ability to, would make a huge, huge difference.

Okay. The other thing you tell us in your paper is that you're concerned that your sector will still need to register with the traffic commissioner, that you're concerned about that, unless—. You need to register unless you're delivering a service under a local bus service contract, so how in practice would that affect your ability to deliver services in a timely, responsive way, and how can that be addressed?

Yes, that's not particularly clear at the moment, because we don't know how many of these services are going to be outside of the contract system and, when the Bill talks about relying on community bus services, what that's going to look like in practice, and understanding that, I think, is going to be really important. Section 22 permits are only issued by a very small team in the traffic commissioner's office in Leeds, so that is not going to be devolved to Wales under the current expectations; that's our understanding. We do have the traffic commissioner's team in Wales and the Traffic Commissioner for Wales, so there is this potential where we will have decisions being made about what services and what areas we can run services in being made in Leeds, and yet if a commercial operator decided to throw one of our operators under the bus and we got called up in front of a public inquiry, that would be done in Wales.

So, I think there's a lot to unpick there, and one of the things that we're already seeing as we start shifting towards the pre-franchising model is the focus naturally is going to be on contracted services and ensuring that we have the network that works, but then you might have pushback—as we've seen in some places already—'Well, if you run this service, it's going to take passengers away from the T network', or, 'If you put this on, it means people aren't going to use the mainstream bus', or an expectation that they would only be able to run a demand-responsive service that integrates with the mainstream bus network. We have real concerns from disabled people, particularly, about that, where a door-to-door journey is the only kind of journey they can make because of their mobility support needs, and there is a real fear that you'll be dropped off by the CT operator at the bus stop and the next two buses that come already have someone in the wheelchair space. What do you do then? How do you make your journey?

So, it's creating, again, that equitable framework so community transport organisations can continue to meet people's needs while still ensuring that the bus network as a whole is more effective and more efficient. I don't know—do you want to add anything on that?

I was just going to say about your two buses come along and they're full. Well, that would be like three or four hours later in my neck of the woods. [Laughter.]

Well, listen, can I thank you so much for being with us today? It's been really valuable for us as a committee not only to hear on a policy level, but also on a ground level delivery level as well, how the Bill might or might not play out. There's a lot of unknown, as you've highlighted, but we're very grateful for your evidence and it's greatly appreciated. Diolch yn fawr iawn. Thank you.

So, whilst you leave us, we'll carry on with our meeting.

So, there are papers to note, so can I invite the committee to consider the papers, 5.1 and 5.2? Are you happy to note those two formally? Yes. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Ocê, ac dŷn ni felly yn mynd i symud i sesiwn breifat, felly dwi'n cynnig yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.46(vi) a (ix) fod y pwyllgor yn cwrdd yn breifat i drafod eitemau 7 a 9 yn ystod gweddill y cyfarfod yma. Mi fyddwn ni nôl mewn sesiwn gyhoeddus am ddau o'r gloch y prynhawn yma i glywed tystiolaeth bellach ar y Bil, ond, os ŷch chi'n hapus i ni ddelio ag eitemau 7 a 9 yn breifat, mi wnawn ni hynny. Pawb yn hapus? Ie. Dyna ni, diolch yn fawr. Mi oedwn i am eiliad, felly, er mwyn symud i sesiwn breifat tan i ni ailymgynnull am ddau o'r gloch. Diolch.

Croeso nôl i'r Pwyllgor Newydd Hinsawdd, Amgylchedd a Seilwaith. Dŷn ni'n symud ymlaen at yr eitem nesaf ar yr agenda, yr wythfed eitem, sef parhau i dderbyn tystiolaeth ar y Bil bysiau. Yn ymuno â ni mae cynrychiolwyr o lywodraeth leol, yn benodol y Cynghorydd David Bithell, sy'n lefarydd trafnidiaeth Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru ac yn is-gadeirydd bwrdd gweithredol Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Wrecsam, ond yma yn bennaf i gynrychioli Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru—croeso atom ni—hefyd Richard Cope, sy'n gadeirydd Cymdeithas Swyddogion Cydgysylltu Trafnidiaeth Cymru, ATCO, Cymru a rheolwr tîm uned trafnidiaeth teithwyr gyda Chyngor Dinas Casnewydd. Ar-lein hefyd mae Kate Wilby sy'n brif swyddog strydlun a thrafnidiaeth gyda Chyngor Sir y Fflint, a John Forsey sy'n bennaeth priffyrdd, trafnidiaeth ac ailgylchu gyda Chyngor Sir Powys. Felly mae gyda ni drawstoriad eang o awdurdodau lleol a rhannau o'r wlad hefyd, felly rydym ni'n ddiolchgar i chi i gyd am ymuno â ni. Mi fwriwn ni yn syth iddi, felly, gyda chwestiynau, a gwnaf i wahodd Carolyn i gychwyn.

Thank you. So, the WLGA's paper says it's supportive of the Bill proposals in general, but believes councils must continue to have a central role in their development and implementation, and witnesses have also said that as well. How should this be delivered, both through amendments to the Bill and wider implementation arrangements for the Bill, and can you be specific? We've also heard about CJCs' involvement as well in delivering the Bill, but we've also heard some concerns from witnesses regarding CJCs actually being able to deliver what's expected of them. So, I was wondering if you could comment on that question. Thank you.

Who would like to go first? There we are; Dave Bithell.

Good afternoon. Thank you for allowing me to attend the meeting this afternoon. Thank you for the opportunity to give this evidence, and, obviously, Andrew Morgan can't be here today, so I'm representing the WLGA response. I'm therefore happy to support and present the WLGA's written response on behalf of the WLGA. I'm sure you would have had the chance to read it and consider the detail of the response. I was not intending to go through the detail in the paper. The main points and principles of the WLGA response highlighted—. There are some key, critical points in their response and I'm just going to take a little bit of time to go through it, and I'm sure that we'll all be happy to take some questions, really.

We believe that, as local authorities, we must continue to have a central role in the development and implementation of the bus services in areas and regions. Work on bus services in Wales must be holistic. All councils invest considerable sums of money in bus services, providing home-to-school transport services, and the work should take full account of the links with local bus services and how the new Bus Services (Wales) Bill will impact on transport users across Wales, in particular those small and medium-sized enterprises that exist in many of our council areas, especially in the rural communities. Finally, that difficult challenge that everyone is involved in in public services these days is that there is significant funding to move us to a franchising model. There is considerably more detail in the written response, namely 12 specific points that are included, and I'm sure that, together with the officers present here, we'll happily field any questions you may have to the best of our ability.

In addition to the above, I think it's worth me capturing and feeding back some of the feelings expressed across the regions in Wales. I'm a member of the north Wales corporate joint committee transport sub-committee and we've had a number of discussions, both formally and informally, on the bus services Bill. The main themes and concerns that elected members on the sub-committee raise in north Wales, and I'm sure these are similar across the WLGA and the response across the whole of Wales, are service standards with the franchising model—are we likely to see improvements over existing services—network enhancements and involvement of councils on options and any network changes; will local authorities have the opportunity to present local solutions and changes, or will the network just be presented to us as a region—so, I'll use north Wales as an example for that—transport providers, there will be an impact on SME local transport operators, especially in local areas; certainty of funding—we are aware and we are expecting that the franchising Bill will take all available current Welsh Government investment in bus services. Members would like some confirmation and clarification on funding gaps and the steps to understand how these gaps in funding will be addressed.

Thank you, Councillor Bithell. I'm sure lack of detail is going to be a regular theme, I think, throughout this, such is the nature of these kinds of framework Bills. But I don't know if anybody else wants to add anything before we come back to Carolyn. Richard.

Just on the first question, obviously, to get a sustained role within the partnership area, I think there needs to be something in the Bill to have a duty on local authorities to work in partnership with WG and TfW, and make sure that this is done, at the very least, at a regional level, where regional officers or local authority officers get the impact of working with TfW on network planning, make sure that their procurement is right and that everything else can be worked together, because local knowledge on bus services is paramount. Because, I think, if we're going to have a sustained role within this, then, I think, possibly putting a duty on local authorities to do that would help with moving this forward.

Just to echo, I think there's always going to be concerns over future funding. Running buses is revenue hungry. In Powys, we've just finished retendering our entire local bus service and home-to-school transport network, and it's an eye-watering amount of money. But we try and keep a lid on that money through making the best use of local bus services first by putting entitled scholars on. So, it's the devil in the detail of the Bill and how it works practically. If I may, probably at a later stage, I'll come back and reflect on the experience we've had.

Yes, this is a general opening shot, really. I can see that Katie wants to come in as well.

Thank you, and thank you for inviting me to the meeting as well. I think it's quite clear that local members, particularly county councillors, want more local input into the decision making as well. Certainly, I know in my case in Flintshire, they've certainly had a role in terms of determining what the core bus network looks like in our county, and we've recently reviewed that, actually, with some minor amendments. So, I think that local accountability still needs to exist. And I echo what Richard has said about some duty on local authorities to work in partnership to co-design the network with TfW and the Welsh Government. That would be certainly welcomed from a local authority perspective.

We've got a significant amount of expertise, knowledge and experience in designing the network as it is currently. We work very closely with the operators within our counties. We understand their limitations and capacity as well. If you're doing that on a national basis, you won't know those local nuances that happen on a day-to-day basis, or the history as to why certain routes operate a certain way. So, you would lose that ability. And I think the other thing is that the local residents in particular and service users currently hold—no disrespect to Councillor David Bithell—members to account. Will that still exist under a national approach? How would that work? I think that's a concern as well.

Katie, with what you're saying, corporate joint committees just have representatives—the leader from each authority—so they wouldn't have that local input. And accountability going forward, I think, has been a bit of a concern, and also the expertise that you might have in each local authority. Would you agree with that?

Yes, that's correct. At the moment, they hold their ward members accountable for decisions and where services operate within their village, their town, their neighbourhood. So, you would lose some of that local accountability.

Thank you, Katie. Moving on, Transport for Wales's written evidence says engagement with local government has been integral to its bus reform engagement framework, with meetings taking place over the last two years, and it's also engaged with corporate joint committees. How effective do you think it's been? David is saying that he's missing a lot of detail here and he's concerned about funding, and you put in quite a lot of subsidies now as a local authority, so you're worried about how that will be used going forward. So, on one hand, TfW said there's been engagement, but you say you're missing detail. So, can you give me a response to that, please?

Thanks, Carolyn. What I would say is there has been engagement—we have had workshops from Transport for Wales and it has been discussed at the CJC meetings. When I say 'lack of detail', I think, truthfully, it's been quite high level. I think where we need to go is what input local authorities are going to have, how does it impact local authority budgets and decision-making processes. I'm not sure we've discussed that. Certainly, across north Wales, that hasn't been discussed.

The concern that I've got is that, as I explained, we put £600,000 in of Wrexham council money, for example, and the Welsh Government put BSSG funding of, say, £400,000, so that's a £1 million. If we're going to work in partnership—and I've got no objection with working in partnership—we've got to see some outcomes for our £600,000. It does need to be a true partnership, and I'm not sure we've seen any process in the Bill that I can see that, as Katie says, gives us any democratic autonomy. And if you take the autonomy from local government, i.e. the councils, I'm not sure the support or the buy-in is going to be forthcoming in the Bill, really. That's the main concern.

And the other thing is, if we're going to just maintain the status quo for bus services across Wales, then, to be fair to most local authorities, they're doing a good job with the limited resources that they've had, but, clearly, I don't see what funding the Welsh Government are going to put into this. It seems to me they're going to pool all our resources into working with Transport for Wales to deliver bus services, and they've got real good aspirations for increased services, but the question is where does the money come from. So, that's the concern, I think, if I'm honest, replicated across Wales, and certainly in north Wales.

I echo some of those comments as well. There was engagement from quite an early stage. There were officer meetings with the Welsh Government, to just work through some of the proposals at that time. I think, though, there's a feeling that there's still only a single option really being presented in terms of franchising. We proposed alternatives, where we could use franchising where the existing network isn't functioning in the right way, but it does still seem to be this one-size-fits-all approach at the moment, which I think we've raised concerns about previously.

I think there's still some lack of detail around how the permitting will work as well. We're still unsure about cross-border services. In Flintshire, in particular, and Wrexham, we operate cross-border services into England, and we're still unclear about how those would operate under the franchise mechanism. I think there's still, again, a lack of detail around the concessionary fares as well, going forward, and how that will be administered going forward, plus a range of other functions that we will still maintain as a local authority in terms of road space co-ordination, when there are roadworks causing congestion on the network, maintenance of bus stop infrastructure, improvement of bus-stop infrastructure, bus priority measures. All of those things are still not clear, and those functions will still remain with the local authority as well.

That is my next question, Katie. While responsibility for planning and securing bus services will move from local authorities to Welsh Ministers as part of the Bill, key areas such as learner travel, active travel, and all that infrastructure that takes up road space—. We heard earlier from representatives of bus operators about congestion being a huge issue, and wanting more bus lanes. Bus stops, bus lanes, bus priority measures will remain the responsibility of local authorities. So, is this likely to be effective, if responsibility for this goes to Ministers?

Shall we hear from Richard?

Thanks, Chair. If I go back to the TfW engagement, I think what David and Katie have said is right, across Wales. I think it's been patchy. I think there's been some good engagement, but there's also been a lot of, perhaps, more questions than answers, where local authority officers have asked questions and we haven't had the answers. We're still waiting for the answers, because I don't even know if they actually know what the answers are currently. So I think that's something that we do need to improve on as we move forward with this.

Around local authority responsibilities, we have a real concern about school transport, because there are large numbers of pupils who travel on public transport to school, especially in south-east Wales, in Powys and other areas. We need to have local accountability on that, because it's a statutory duty on the local authorities, and to centrally plan all this is going to be very difficult. It has to be dynamic, because there are changes to school transport. It's not just September, it's all throughout the year, because you get more pupils coming in, you get pupils leaving, you get pupils moving schools and other things. So there has to be a lot of work done on that to ensure that we don't lose those routes and they are carried forward into franchising so that we've got continuity for those pupils as well. It's not only season-ticketed pupils, it's fare-paying pupils who travel to school who don't meet the distance criteria.

Another thing is that we pay, at the moment, bus operators for season tickets on those vehicles. What happens when it becomes a gross-cost contract? Who do we pay? Do we have to go to TfW? That means 22 local authorities bringing money into TfW. Basically, who sets the fares? Because that's another point. Are TfW going to set the fares, or the bus operator? But the bus operator is applying for a franchise. It's TfW who are taking the risk. So who's going to actually set those fares? Are they going to be done with local authorities? That's something that we do need to work on, I think.

I think there’s a disconnect as well between funding with infrastructure, because infrastructure is important. Congestion, as probably the bus operators have told you, is a real problem. Bus priority schemes and everything else need to be funded, and obviously they'll be funded through the regional transport plans, but I think we do need to make sure that the funding streams for these carry on. On upgrading infrastructure, we've also got the bus stations, which are not all owned by local authorities. Some are owned by developers. There are departure charges to think about in those bus stations. How do they get worked through?

And highway functions as well. Obviously, they need to be considered. It’s the little things: a burst water main happens, or a tree falls down, or there are trees that need cutting down. All those functions are still going to be with local authorities, and who do we liaise with—TfW, bus operators, et cetera? So it's answering these questions, I think. The devil's more in the detail, but I think we have got real concerns around how that's going to work with centralised planning.

Thank you. Heledd wants to pick up on something, then we'll come to Katie, and then we'll come back.

I just want to check in terms of the centralisation of learner travel, because obviously I think there's a bit of a blurring here, because the Learner Travel (Wales) Measure 2008 is still very much in place, isn't it? But there's been some blurring in what Ministers have said, that this could replace the need for changing the three to two, and so on. I just wanted clarity there. Do you have any fears that that blurring is perhaps making things more difficult in terms of how you plan?

It is difficult, because we have to plan the best way for those pupils to get to school. Obviously, the most cost-effective way and the best way for the pupils to start using public transport at an early age is to get them on public transport early, and get them to school—if there are public transport routes available. If there are not, then we have to decide on whether it's a coach, taxi, minibus or whatever, depending on the number of pupils that are going to each school. So they become closed school contracts. They wouldn't change under this Bill, but the public transport certainly is part of the Bill—or can they be put outside? I don't think you can actually put them outside of it, because they are public bus services. They're registered as public bus services, so there’s not going to be a way of just pushing them outside. They need to be integrated properly into the franchise.

Thank you. Katie now, and we'll come back to Carolyn.

Thank you very much. My point was around the school transport element as well and the impact that could have on local authority budgets. It's a statutory function that we provide, and I'm concerned about the widening of the policy for the learner travel Measure and potentially the impact that could have, but also the fact that we use the funding that we have for subsidies. We try and cross-subsidise that with what we have for school transport. We always try and integrate public transport with school transport journeys where feasible, to get the most for our money. Under the buses Bill, we'll lose that ability to a certain extent, which will mean that we will have to procure separate, potentially, school coaches under closed school contracts, which are likely to cost more.

Currently, we have a number of services where we are able to place eligible pupils on public transport routes and cross-subsidise those routes, so they both help each other to a certain extent. So, I am concerned about that. I think we also need to be mindful, if routes are going to be planned on a national basis, that you don't impact admissions and school catchment areas, because you could potentially facilitate journeys for pupils who are travelling outside of their catchment and actually affect pupil numbers at certain schools as well. We have seen that happen previously with commercial operators, where commercial operators have provided journeys themselves and it has impacted those pupil numbers at certain schools. So, there are risks, as well, associated with it.

Okay. Thank you. John briefly then, and we will come to Carolyn.

Just one final point in support of everything that Katie and Richard said around school transport. The point I am going to make, from a local authority point of view is that, at the moment—. Well, the Bill says that Welsh Ministers will be responsible for securing bus services, then a bus operator goes and operates those services and the local authority or the CJC, or whoever, is responsible for the infrastructure. Currently, the traffic commissioner has the ability to bring a transport operator and the local authority into a public inquiry for failing to adhere to standards. Will that now include the Ministers appearing at a public inquiry as well in the future?

That's a good point.

Yes, an interesting question.

Can I just ask one question on school transport? It was suggested earlier you could bring school transport together with public bus transport, but just remove the ALN element of it. That the suggestion. No—shaking of heads. Okay. Thank you. I won't take that any further.

Richard.

To explain, basically, you've got probably more taxis and minibuses than you have coaches on school transport. You can have 150, 200 taxi contracts in different areas where there are only small numbers of pupils.

Okay. Thank you. Do you believe the Bill as drafted and associated implementation arrangements have sufficient regard to both the SME bus operators and the community transport sector? Are any specific amendments or wider actions required?

John.

The SME bit is a really good point. I suppose I can speak from the experience of Powys. We've been operating almost a franchise model for quite some time now. It's everything in franchise, all bar the legalities of it, but we set the times, the fares, the vehicle type. We do not have a particular problem with SMEs competing against multinational companies. We have, through Welsh Government grant funding, been able to make that easier by providing vehicles. So, effectively, all the SMEs are doing are providing staff, fuel, maintenance. That kind of levels the playing field and that seems to have worked quite well. That, again, as I said, appears to have been reflected in the latest round of tenders as well.

That's a good point.

Because we've been told that SMEs are petrified—that was the word that was used—with this Bill. So, obviously, any experience that you can bring to the table would—.

There's an SME in Flintshire that, you know—. You have to do the same thing, I think, don't you, Katie? Katie has got her hand up.

Yes, that's okay, and then we'll come back to Richard.

Yes, I do have concerns about the SMEs, particularly in north Wales. We have a high number of SMEs across the whole region who do provide an essential service, particularly in the more rural areas. They tend to pick up those socially necessary journeys that wouldn't otherwise operate commercially. So, they tend to operate under contract to local authorities. It's those operators and their ability to compete with the larger multinational operators that is our concern. I think we're worried that they will be squeezed out of the market. Obviously, they also provide most of our home-to-school transport services. So, there is a knock-on effect if we do see operators fold or decide to throw in the towel. We might see some operators disappear as they just feel it's too bureaucratic and not worth their while, because they just can't compete with those larger operators that have the capacity to win tenders, throw resources at things. So, that is a huge concern. We also have one operator in north Wales who doesn't benefit from the SSG, who has never applied for the grant, and is running wholly commercially. So, that is a concern from us as well.

Okay. Thank you. Richard.

Thanks. I think SMEs are a real concern for us, especially in rural areas, because, basically, they provide a lot of our home-to-school transport. Corporate operators don't tend to supply school transport—maybe some on public bus, but they don't have coaches and other vehicles that SMEs do. Obviously, if they're not protected within the Bill, then corporates would look at it as an opportunity to take over as many routes as they can, and push opposition out and then up the price as it gets later in the franchise. So, that's something that we've got to be really aware of with SMEs, and there needs to be a way of how we do that.

Of course, the other concern for us in Newport and Cardiff is municipally owned companies, because we've got municipally owned bus companies who, again, could be pushed out by larger operators, and we do get really good service from those operators. They also provide home-to-school transport for us in a large way, and we would be really concerned if they were pushed out from bus routes in that way.

Around CT operators, I think there needs to be a bit more clarity in the Bill around CT, because it talks around section 19 or section 22 operators, but they're different sorts of areas. With section 22, they're providing local bus services—they could be DRT, they could be direct services. Section 19 is more of a dial-a-ride-type service, where they do specific journeys. They provide a very valuable service to our citizens, and we don't want those to be pushed out of franchising or brought into the area around franchising, because I think they need to sit outside and be able to carry on doing the work that they're doing. In rural areas, a lot of local authorities have also got section 22 services running in-house. So, there are quite a number of things there that we need to be aware of. If we're in a situation with local authorities, there's a problem with operator licensing against permits, because you're not allowed to hold a permit and an operator's licence under the same entity. So, if it was a municipal, they'd have to form an arm's-length company to be outside of the actual authority, otherwise they can't have an operator's licence and a permit.

Okay. I'm just conscious we're not a quarter of the way through the areas we want to cover and we're nearly halfway through the time. So, very briefly, John, and then very, very briefly, Katie, before I come back to Carolyn for the last question.

Thanks. With regard to community transport, I think perhaps the Bill is the opportunity—. I have a slightly different view than Richard, I think. This might be the opportunity to review what community transport is, and the definition of community transport. I think most people would think it's a traditional dial-a-ride service. Perhaps so, and perhaps the individual schemes might be comfortable remaining like that, but I see this as the opportunity to actually integrate them as part of the transport offer. So, instead of community transport, it's transport for communities. And a really quick, simple way of doing that is if section 19 permits could accept bus passes. That would help a lot of CT schemes.

Okay. Good idea.

Okay. Well, we'd probably have to test that with them, but, yes, that's a suggestion, certainly. Katie, did you just want to very briefly say something?

Yes. John did steal my thunder a little bit. He said some of the things I thought. Concessionary passes was one thing I was going to raise, but funding in particular for community transport is a massive issue. I know, in north Wales, a lot of the community transport operators are struggling. We've seen a reduction in funding this year, and it has been year on year, to be honest, and it doesn't go far enough. So, I think they are underfunded. I agree with Richard that they need some sort of protection. I wouldn't want to see the loss of those operators; they provide a vital service in our communities, particularly in terms of ring-and-ride-type services and taking people on non-urgent patient transport-type services.

I'm sure we all agree. Yes. Thank you. Is there anything else that you want to ask, Carolyn?

There is. We've covered funding a little already, so—

Yes, I think we have.

—implications for the transition of new arrangements if additional funding is not required. I think you've touched on that already. If there's anything else you want to add, that's—

Yes. We've got that message loud and clear, I think.

Yes. Okay.

One thing on the funding, around the RIA, I think, is that we've got real concerns around the costs in the RIA. I think, if you read the actual paper we've sent in, it will give a lot more detail around this, but there are a lot of areas in there that don't appear to be correct. Current funding levels don't seem to be right, and, obviously, they haven't considered congestion, they haven't considered local authority contributions to transport or any income that comes in from scholars or from local authorities. So, there's quite a bit missing.

Yes. And the operators mentioned national insurance contributions as well, because it predates some of those things.

Absolutely. It predates that.

Thank you.

Okay. Thank you, Chair.

Okay. Thank you very much. So, we've spoken about general things. We'll try and get into the different sections specifically in the Bill now. I mean, really, the whole narrative is about franchising, isn't it? People are talking about that. But, of course, fundamentally, in the Bill, it doesn't say that it will be franchising; it just refers to local bus service contracts. Now, the Minister or the Cabinet Secretary said that that's because it will bring flexibility, but some people might say, 'Well, that leaves the door open for absolutely anything.' So, I don't know how you respond to that, or whether you're comfortable with that sort of fluidity.

I don't mind going first. I think what's been talked about mainly is gross-cost contracts being done under a franchise, with Transport for Wales delivering on that, and procurement.

Yes. That's what's been talked about, but that's not in the Bill specifically.

No, it doesn't actually say it in the Bill, but I think that's what they want to do. Obviously, that puts all the risks with the public sector. We would like to see more of a mixed, shared risk and reward with operators, so that there's a bit more incentive for operators to run services. Obviously, you know, some of the things in the Bill around direct award, there could be a conflict. Well, there could be a challenge on some of that if they—. What's the criteria for direct award, because it doesn't say it in the Bill? And if they're going to direct award to any operator, what conditions apply for that, because, otherwise, the Competition and Markets Authority could be all over it and say, 'Well, hang on a minute. You've direct awarded to operator A, but not operator B'? So, there's quite a number of things around that and the clarity around how permits work, because it seems to be a little bit conflicted in there, around talking about community transport permits and then permits to operate. Now, does that mean cross-border services? We're not quite sure, because it's not really defined enough in the Bill.

Yes. Go on, then, John, because I just feel there's more questions than answers coming out of this Bill, which I think probably characterises many of the points that are being made here. John.

Again, from a mid Wales, Powys perspective, we've operated gross-cost contracts for a long time and it's, effectively, almost that franchise model. The only thing we can't do under the current model, under the current 1985 legislation, which is far from perfect, is where we have competing commercial services, which are very few and far between in Powys. So, largely, we've managed to create a franchise environment with gross-cost contracts under the 1985 Act. So, one could question the need for the Bill, but I absolutely understand why there is a need to try and sort it out in the more urban areas. But what it does do is create a very stable environment. We don't get operators—. They can't just change a route or cancel a route, terminate a route, so it creates that stable environment. So, there are pros and cons to it.

Okay. Thank you very much. A lot of interesting points there. So, do you believe that the arrangements for developing and reviewing the Welsh bus network plan are likely to be effective, particularly the circumstances in which Welsh Ministers are required to review the plan and the consultation requirements of them? Is that something that's—?

I'll start. Yes. In the Bill, it states that if they're going to revise the plan, you have to consult with a number of different bodies, unless you want to change the plan for just 14 days.

Fourteen days—that's it, yes.

We don't think that's workable. Basically, a plan should be dynamic.

So, generally now, not specifically in relation to 14 days, just generally.

Generally, it’s not really workable. If you have roadworks, they last more than 14 days in many areas. So, you might have to divert a vehicle to a different route completely. So, you need changes to that plan to be dynamic. You need them to be able to be moved around, because if you have new developments that come along, where you want to provide a bus service into, you need to change that plan quickly. You don’t want to have to go through all that consultation period just to change a service.

There needs to be more clarity. It needs to be properly worked that it becomes more dynamic, and that it’s worked, I would just say, in consultation with local authorities and elected members, because this is something that is going to be a local change. And if we want to change the school route, for instance, we’ll have to wait for all that consultation to go through, and some of those, really, would not have any effect on the people that they’re consulting.

And just on that consulting theme then, because the CTA are concerned that community engagement around the regional transport plans was 'poor', and the documents are

'complex, disconnected from reality and lived experience, aspirational and unrealistic'.

Do you share those views?

I think RTPs have a place. I do think that—. Well, I don’t know about the engagement, because the engagement’s been fairly good, as far as I am aware. They’ve consulted for quite a number of weeks. I know in the south-east, we’ve done a lot of community engagement; we’ve been out on the streets doing community engagement. I can’t speak for some of the other areas, but I know that’s happened. But the interest in people actually commenting on it may not be there. And, obviously, if you’re going to develop network plans, or plans within those RTPs, you’re going to put in as many things as you can, understanding that the funding is not going to be there for all of them, but they’ve got to be prioritised.

Now, if we’re looking at bus priority within the RTPs, then that’s going to be competing against a road scheme, or an active travel scheme, or anything else. Should we have separate funding streams for bus priority schemes, or for active travel, or everything else, which we haven’t got under the current local transport fund arrangements? It’s all bundled into one, and they all compete against one another. So, I think it’s prioritising that, really.

Okay. Councillor Bithell first, and then we’ll come to Katie as well.

Thank you. Just on the regional transport plan, I know, in north Wales, we’ve supported the roll-out, and supported the regional transport plan. I think there’s a general disconnect with the public, and people getting people to respond. We’ve done exercises in Wrexham, and I know other local authorities across north Wales have done similar exercises. But I think the general take-up that I’ve picked up—and I’ll use Wrexham as an example—is pretty poor. We did a few sessions in the local library. I think my personal view from when you do consultations with the public on regional transport plans is that a lot of people come back and say, ‘It’s all pie in the sky’, and they’ll never see any improvements to public transport or whatever we’re consulting on. So, I think there’s a general disconnect with that.

People want to see delivery on the ground, and I’ve made that point at the CJC many times. It’s all about delivery rather than aspiration, and I think that’s why we get a disconnect.

Okay, thank you. Katie.

Yes, in terms of the RTP consultation in north Wales, I think it’s been really good. We’ve had a virtual room. We’ve run a number of engagement events in person as well, across different authority areas. I think Councillor Bithell was right, that the take-up was very poor, in terms of those in-person events. They were poorly attended, and yet took a lot of officer time.

In terms of the consultation around the bus network plan, I was going to suggest that I think consulting all those bodies would be useful for a core bus network for Wales, but when it comes to service changes on the ground that need to be reactive, I think that’s particularly onerous, and it’s just not workable.

Okay, thank you. Very, very briefly then, because we've—

Sorry. With regard to the RTP, it’s interesting, we’ve had our RTP back now and the priorities from the consultation are sometimes at odds with Ministers’ priorities. So, that’s given us a bit of conflict to work through. And, then, in terms of the consultation around changing stuff, I think—and it reflects back to the RTP—we just need to be in that mindset of what’s best for the passenger, because that’s why we do it.

Yes, you're right—you're right. So, the WLGA's paper says that decisions regarding local bus service contracts, permits and cross-border services should be discussed and agreed in partnership with the councils concerned, because there's a fundamental power shift happening here, isn't there, and when that happens, obviously some people are happy and some people aren't. I'm just wondering how that would work in practice, if that's what you want, and what would need to be changed in the Bill for that to be done, really. John.

Our largest border is with England, and there's a lot of detail to work through. I mean, what happens to BSSG, or the bus service operators grant, which they still have in England and it comes into Wales? Do Ministers reimburse English operators? We just don't know that level of detail. And so, some guidance specifically. It's probably one of our biggest areas of concern. We have lots of people moving into England because of health, education and employment, so that's one of the really big areas for us to work through.

Okay, fine. Councillor Bithell, yes.

Yes. Just very briefly on cross-border working, we've got a really good working relationship cross-border. We're only 11 miles, obviously, from the Cheshire border. We have a good relationship with Cheshire west. We have services coming across the border via Holt into Wrexham, and clearly we've got services going from Wrexham to Chester, cross-border. So, we've got a really good partnership locally. I share the concerns, really, about the Bill, because obviously this is a Wales Bill, so how does that interact with England? We just need to be really careful, because we could take some of that good partnership away.

Okay. Diolch yn fawr iawn. Richard.

Yes. On cross-border working, obviously in Monmouthshire we've got quite a lot of cross-borders into England, and there's really good working in partnership with the western gateway and the partnerships we have with those—Forest of Dean and Herefordshire and all those other areas. Obviously, what we're concerned about with this is if they get a permit to operate within our franchises, will they be just limited stops for those services as they come into Wales? How will it work across borders, because you could end up having a service that goes through Powys, through north Wales, and then to England, or you could have the same in south-east Wales? How are those services going to work, because they could be under three different types of contract at one point in the early days of franchising? So, we'd be concerned about how the permit would work and what they would be allowed to do under that permit when it works within the franchise.

Yes. Katie, then.

Yes. It's a concern we have in Flintshire. We have similar cross-border journeys. People can use their concessionary travel passes. Obviously, we don't have any general hospitals in Flintshire, so the nearest hospital for a lot of residents in Flintshire is the Countess of Chester Hospital. So, they need to use their bus passes to get to those facilities, and we allow people to do that under the concessionary fare scheme, providing that the journey starts or finishes in Wales. Obviously, with the cross-border and the changes to the buses Bill, this could change. So, we still need to be able to allow people to access those journeys going forward.

Okay, thank you. We'll come on to Heledd now, then, I think.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. Just looking at Part 3 in terms of restrictions on providing local bus services, the WLGA has recognised in the paper that you've shared with us that further clarity is required on the exceptions to these restrictions set out in section 21(2). Could you outline those aspects that you find that are unclear and perhaps advise us on how you think those should be addressed?

Yes, Richard.

Very quickly. Basically, things around express bus services, things like a Flixbus or a National Express, which have stops that are within a 15-mile radius. You know, they stop at a lot of cities or towns and en route. How will they be dealt with within the franchise, because they do take passengers off local bus in some areas? Section 22, obviously, services that—. Will they still be outside of a franchise or will they be working within the franchise in rural areas? So, just a bit more clarity around, I think, how all this section will work within the Bill, because those services are part and parcel of public transport, but they're not mentioned within the Bill.

Yes, and so could potentially be addressed by guidance.

Yes.

Katie.

Apologies, that was and old hand. Sorry.

Sorry, your hand was still up from earlier. That's okay. Back to Heledd. No problem at all.

Okay. So, if there are no other comments on Part 3—no—if we can move on to Part 4 of the Bill, then, on information and data. The WLGA suggests that Part 4 creates two risks: that information provision is duplicated, as the Welsh Ministers and Transport for Wales require all information to be shared with them too; and that a council may reduce their own capacity in terms of local bus management. So, what are your views? Do you think that both of these outcomes are inevitable, given that statutory responsibility for local bus services is moving from local authorities to Ministers?

I think that, with data sharing, we've got a number of concerns about duplication, because obviously we pull data from operators through ticket machines or whatever else that we need for planning school routes and other things. So, local authorities will still need data in the same way that TfW will need data to plan bus services with the local authorities. Now, obviously, bus companies will need data for their systems. They have to make sure that, because a lot of these bus companies will be groups, they have to provide that to their group. Again, it's more about clarity around how that data is delivered, who it is shared with. You can have a data sharing agreement, so there's no issue in data sharing. So, one set of data could be shared with more than one person, it's just making it clearer, really, on that.

And I think, around information for passengers, that, again, is going to be with local authorities and again it's making that clearer as to who is actually going to deliver it, because TfW have a portal for real-time passenger information at the moment. They've got that portal; if that data is different to the data that we're delivering as local authorities, then we're going to have a clash of bus stops and we've got the wrong data. So, there has to be some work on this to bring it all together.

I think the other issue is that, at the moment, bus operators are legally bound to put information at bus stops and timetables on their services. If they don't do it, local authorities step in. Now, how is that going to work within franchising? Are they going to put the duty on local authorities or will it be on TfW? But, if they're going to provide digital data, we will have to provide roadside publicity for stops that don't have digital displays. So, it's about clarity on how all of that's going to work.

Yes. So, even from things like data collection, but also, as you say, in terms of the practical sharing and communication with the general public. And, obviously, it can vary from area to area currently as well.

Yes. Absolutely.

Yes. Okay. Thank you. I don't know if there are any additional points to be raised. Similarly, then, section 26 empowers Welsh Ministers to require local authorities and community councils to provide information to allow them to deliver their functions under Part 2. Is this appropriate and is it likely to be effective or very similar to what we've just been through?

I think it's mostly what we've just been through, really. It's how effective—. If you're going to have digital displays that are held at a central point with TfW, that data has got to be the same as what we provide to roadside publicity. So, you've got to make sure that that is clear and it's correct. As local authorities, we will own the infrastructure at bus stations and at the roadside. We have got the capacity to change that in the same way as TfW has got the capacity—they could change it. So, we definitely need more clarity on making sure that it's clear who does what, where and when.

Katie.

Yes, I think that there needs to be a standardised approach as well to information for passengers. Obviously, all of the local authorities will approach it in a different way. Some update the roadside displays, some don't; some have back-office systems, or different back-office systems to maintain that information and there isn't a standardised approach across Wales at the moment.

Okay.

Just very quickly on that data problem with buses, I have an app on my phone, I can look at any aircraft in the world and it can tell me where it's going; I can't do that with a bus.

No.

Yes. There we are. Okay.

[Inaudible.]—pay for the parking now, which is great. I do that.

Obviously, with the shift in responsibility to TfW potentially, there have been concerns about loss of skills within local authorities and people leaving or going to TfW specifically. What can you tell me about that and any concerns you may have? Is it already happening, or—? Where will you be in three, four years' time—will you have the people, the skills that you need, to deliver some of the work that you need to do?

I would say that, in terms of TfW, it's happening—there are local authority staff working within TfW. That's a natural progression; we'll never stop that—people see the opportunities. I think it's incumbent on the local authorities now to be thinking about their skillsets and developing—it's always an ongoing challenge, with ridiculously constrained budgets, around how do you develop staff quickly. And we're all getting older; I don't know whether I'll be around in the iteration of the franchise by the time—. So, yes, it's that perennial problem. I'm really quite relaxed about whether it's a local authority function or the staff do it on behalf of the local authority. As long as it delivers the best outcome for the area, I don't think I have a particular issue with it.

Okay. Katie and then Dave.

Yes, I think it's an issue already; we have resilience and capacity issues now. I don't necessarily think it's a loss of skills to TfW either—it could be to consultancies or also to the CJCs. So, I think there's an issue there, and I don't think it's just restricted to passenger transport and transportation. I think it's highways engineering, active travel—it's the whole range of functions, to be honest. I think we've been struggling to just bring younger people into the industry, so it needs something around traineeships or some sort of modern apprentice-type role on a national basis.

Councillor Bithell.

Yes, I think Katie's touched on it, really. I think the skillset in the transport sector per se, especially in local authorities, is weaker now than perhaps it was 20 years ago. I think transport's a really specialist area. You're either a really good transport—got the skillset—or—. Some people find it really difficult. And the question that I would suggest, really—. And I think when Transport for Wales were formed, as an example, working with perhaps Network Rail, for example, a lot of staff have left now Network Rail, for example, and gone over to TfW, whether that's for better pay or conditions, I don't know. But the reality is the skillset across the transport sector, including Transport for Wales, I don't think is as good as it used to be 15, 20 years ago. I've had a lifetime experience of working in a transport organisation for 43 years, and it's a specialised subject. And I agree with Katie, maybe we need to look at developing apprentices and skills in the transport sector, because it is a specialist area—not everybody knows a lot about bus services and how they function and how they operate, and the same with the rail network. They're all interlinked and the skillset is certainly going to reduce in local government.

Okay, excellent, thank you. Carolyn.

I just want to ask about section 32, which removes restrictions on local authorities being able to operate municipal bus companies. Is it sufficient or is there any further action, for example, guidance or further amendment to the Bill, needed?

I remember that we looked at having an operator's licence in Flintshire, or an officer did, but then it was very difficult to keep it up—so, just your views, opinions on this.

Newport I think is the first place to go on this one.

Thanks. Obviously, I've had experience of a municipal bus company. We set up in-house school transport in Monmouthshire almost 20 years ago now, and obviously there are benefits of having in-house—you've got more control, you can understand how things work. But there's also, obviously, the arm's-length element of this as well, where we've got arm's-length bus companies that have been running for 40 years, basically, since deregulation, and have done so very well. And I think the problem you've got with setting up a new municipal operation is the capacity within local authorities to do it in the first place, because there may not be enough people in local authorities who would have the knowledge of setting up a bus company. I came from a private bus company originally, so I've operated buses, I know how everything works on that side, but the skillsets are slightly different in a public arena than they are in a private arena, and I think, when you move into public sector, it's a different skillset sometimes to working for a bus company. They are interchangeable, but there are lessons to be learned as you move through, because you've got a lot more ticking of boxes to do in a public area than you have, probably, in a private arena.

So, I think, for us, looking at municipals, it's the cost of setting them up in the first place, and there's no guarantee they're going to get any work. So, it's great to have that restriction removed, but there's no guarantee under the Bill of any municipal taking on any work, because they would have to bid for it in the same way as outside operators do, because you can't just direct award. Now, currently, under the current legislation, local authorities can run section 22 services if they have no interest in a bus route, which we've done over the years and are still doing, but that would be taken away, obviously, with franchising, and that is something we need to look at, because it's going to prevent, I think, local authorities setting up bus companies if they've got no guarantee of getting funding. And it would be the same if TfW became an operator at any point; they would have to meet the financial standing regulations, which they currently probably wouldn't, and also it's the cost of setting all that up in the first place, and it takes time. So, if a franchise failed and you wanted a local authority to take it over or something else, you've got to have that lead-in time to set that company up. It has to be done properly; you have to obviously do it, probably, arm's length now, because of the operator's licence against permits, because permits, even for social services or other education things, are used by local authorities, so they couldn't be the same entity. That was changed in 2020 by the European Union. So, again, it's something maybe to look at, as to whether that could be changed for Wales—I don't know, but that may be something that would work.

We'll come to Katie and then we'll come back to John.

Yes, very briefly, there are pros and cons, and I accept that those current municipal bus companies do need to be protected, but I think Richard's right, the costs are onerous, they're prohibitive, to set up a new municipal bus company, and they're not the answer to everything. We've been doing some work around that in Flintshire. We've previously tried to gain a PSV operator's licence, and we wouldn't have (a) the depot workshop facility. So, it's not just about operating the services, it's being able to maintain the vehicles, procure the vehicles, on an ongoing basis, the staffing—not just driving staff, you'd need mechanics—it's all the back office that goes with it. So, it would be prohibitive for any local authority in terms of trying to set that up currently.

Okay. John.

Survival of the municipal bus companies in the future—if the franchise is right, you probably won't need them, and I'm hoping that's the outcome, that they'd probably end up becoming the operator of last resort, if something goes wrong.

If something happens.

That's how I envisage it.

As a safety net, yes. Okay, albeit with all the work that might come out of that. Yes, okay, thank you. Carolyn.

Okay. So, section 33 of the Bill amends section 63 of the Transport Act 1985 to remove the current duty to secure local bus services. So, what are the implications of this amendment, particularly in terms of the process of transitioning to bus franchising and the overall level of investment in Welsh bus services? I'm sticking to the questions, because I keep wandering off the Bill and we've got to stick to the Bill. [Laughter.]

We have to, yes. Any particular views or thoughts? Richard.

Yes. Thanks, Chair. I think the one thing with this is that it's currently a duty on local authorities to provide section 63 services where they're not being otherwise provided, and I think we obviously put a lot of funding throughout Wales into bus services, as well as Welsh Government, and if we've got to make a case to our leaders for money for bus services, if we don't have a duty to do that any longer and there's no duty on us to provide those services, then it's going to be harder, against statutory duties like education and social services, to get that funding, and that funding is still going to be crucial to setting up a franchise, because, without the money that we're putting in across Wales, then a lot of services will be lost. So, that is something that needs to be considered, and, obviously, section 63, to me, if you rescind it, you've got no back-up.

So, at the moment, you've got a back-up where you could, basically, use section 63 with local authorities to provide services, but if it's repealed then there's no back-up if franchising is not affordable in an area, or they decide to change the way in which they deliver, or whatever. I know in the Bill it actually says it will be Welsh Government that will determine when that comes into effect, and, obviously, that's crucial as well, to ensure that all the franchises are in place before that's actually repealed.

And whatever replaces it then, or there's something in there that replaces it that's strong enough, I guess, for the socially necessary journeys.

It will be the franchising that replaces it, basically. But, obviously, you've still got some services like section 22 services that will be with the traffic commissioner, because they would still have to be registered with the traffic commissioner. The franchise services under the Bill—it says they won't.

Okay. So, section 34 of the Bill establishes a new local authority power to provide financial assistance in connection with the provision of a local bus service. So, given that the Bill largely shifts responsibility for local bus services to the Welsh Ministers, are you clear on this purpose and the effect of section 34 and what discussions have you had with the Welsh Ministers on this?

It gives us the power to provide money to Welsh Government for services, but it doesn't mean to say that that money will be there, because, if we don't have the power to procure bus services ourselves, then the duty on that local authority is taken away. And we have made that point to Welsh Government.

And conflicting, like you say, with housing, social services. It's always a bit of a bun fight when setting a budget; it's really hard.

Yes, and I think your BSSG funding, for instance, is not all for bus services; it's used for CT services, it's used for bus infrastructure. So, the whole £25 million in BSSG is not all used to provide bus services; it is used for other things.

Okay. Part 5 of the Bill makes remarkably few amendments to current local authority bus service powers and duties in relation to bus services. Given statutory responsibility is moving to Welsh Ministers, the Cabinet Secretary has said he intends to bring forward amendments at Stage 2 to address this. Is this satisfactory and are there any particular areas you believe need to be clarified? For example, local authority powers under section 114 of the Transport Act 2000 to implement statutory quality bus partnership agreements between local authorities and bus operators aimed at improving services are not repealed. Does that make sense?

Fundamentally, the Government have been talking about this Bill since 2017, they've been working on it since 2011, and now they're telling us that they're going to bring further amendments before we've discussed the Bill at Stage 2. Maybe, just to broaden it out a bit, you made it clear in your written evidence, and it's come through clearly today, that regulation is going to do a lot of heavy lifting in relation to this. Really, is the Bill coming at us undercooked? Because, clearly, you don't know the detail or level of detail that you should in order to form a meaningful and mature understanding of what it means for you, really. So, what would you say, really, to that? Is the Government just giving itself powers to do things that you're concerned about, because it's not clear enough to you what that means in reality? Councillor Bithell first, maybe, and then we'll come to Richard.

I think that's a—

Sorry, we'll come to Councillor Bithell first, and then we will come to you, Richard.

Yes, it's quite a controversial question, that, so if I'm going to be honest—

It's a fair question, I think. [Laughter.]

If I'm going to be honest, my personal view, with my transport background for a number of years, is I'm not sure we're ready for the change in legislation at this moment. I think there's a lot of detail missing. The detail is the funding, the detail is the interaction with local authorities, and if you're going to take powers away to give it to the Welsh Government, I think you'd get a lot of resistance across Wales to that. For example, and I quoted it earlier on, in Wrexham council, we made some difficult decisions in the budgets, where we increased our council tax by 9.5 per cent, and that included another £200,000 into public transport. So, we've actually put £600,000 in the last three years—£200,000 each year. I think, if we go down this avenue of a Bill handing over power to the Welsh Government to run bus services, you'll get members not just in Wrexham, but across Wales, saying, 'Unless we have input and we have the necessary powers to work in true partnership, why would we implement changes, increasing our council tax for local residents, if we've got no power or autonomy to influence local bus services?' So, I think there's a bit more work, in my view, to do on this Bill. And if we could have assurances on all the points that I raised earlier on— . I'm not sure, personally—. When you said, or somebody said, 'half cooked'—. Was it 'half cooked'?

Well, 'undercooked' I said, although you've now said 'half cooked' so I'll use that if you want [Laughter.]

I'll go with yours—'undercooked'. I'm not sure we're ready yet; I think it needs a little bit more work on it, in my personal view.

Yes. In fairness. I think that sentiment is coming through from a number of different directions.

I'll come to you, Richard, but in coming to you, the Cabinet Secretary did tell us in evidence last week that he thought there was scope to get more from current funding under franchising. Now, is there an evidence base for that, do you think, or is he living in a different world?

I would say not, knowing what, currently, services are. We've still got 30 to 35 per cent of commercial services running that we don't pay anything to at the moment. Those would all come into franchising and you'd have to pay for them, so the actual profit and loss on that from operators will be higher, because they will want to make sure that they make money out of that. So, for me, the current funding level—. We welcome that it's been increased this year, I know, and we do welcome that and we will be making further improvements as we move forward, but I don't think you can do more and I think you need a lot more funding for franchising. Look at London—£700 million. Manchester—£313 million to just, really, stand still. Manchester haven't really increased a number of routes; it's basically just changed from local authorities into Transport for Greater Manchester and it hasn't really improved a great deal. In fact, some services, I've heard, are worse. So, I think you do need a substantial amount. If you go through the RIA, some of the figures in there are unbelievable, you know—administration at £30 million per annum.

Yes.

I mean, that seems to be really, really high to me. And I do think the other thing is that, you know, for this to move forward, clarity needs to be key in a lot of the areas that are in the Bill, because—

Which isn't there at the minute.

Which is not there at the moment, no. And things like concessionary fares, for instance, are not even mentioned in the Bill.

Of course. Yes.

And, you know, that's a local authority function. I've been told that there's no movement to change any of that current legislation, which means that, when the Bill comes in, local authorities will still be responsible for concessionary fares and paying operators. So, we need a lot more clarity.

Thank you. The final word to you, then, John.

Diolch. Was it 'half'—? I won't say 'oven baked'.

'Undercooked'

'Undercooked'.

Maybe I should think of another word, but, yes, 'not ready'.

I'm not entirely sure, but I can only speak from experience. Again, we put in place a franchise arrangement and it started off with about 600,000 passengers in Powys. That's now grown to about 1.1 million. So, potentially, if the franchising thing and the network and the ticket and the offer are right, there is potential. So, I don't want to say that it's all doom and gloom, but there are significant risks—there are risks with it. But if you get it right, there could be reward as well.

Can I just make one more point?

Oh, I was going to say that that's a nice positive note to finish on, but, Richard, you're going to—

Just one point—

Okay. The very final word now.

—around the setting of fares. Obviously, there are great variations on fares across Wales.

Indeed, yes.

And if you're going to set a franchise, it's likely that TfW will want to set better fares as they move forward. That will reduce the revenue coming in, which means that the services will cost more to fund at the outset. So, the transitional funding would need to be a lot more if they're going to change the fare structure as well.

[Inaudible.]—get more passengers on.

Yes.

There are a lot of moving parts here, aren't there?

Well, you might well do, but it won't be overnight; it will take some time to build.

To build up that revenue. Okay. Can I thank the four of you very much for your attendance? We really appreciate the evidence, both written and orally here today. You will be sent a draft copy of the transcript just to check that it fairly reflects what you've told us. But I sincerely want to say 'diolch yn fawr'—thank you for being with us and for sharing your expertise and knowledge. I wish you well with the work that you do. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you very much.

Diolch.

The committee will now move back into private session to conclude our deliberations. Diolch yn fawr iawn.