Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee

Can I welcome the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales and his officials to the meeting today? If you'd like to introduce yourselves for the record—.

I'm Ken Skates. I'm the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales.

Hello. I'm Alex Walters, deputy director for public and integrated transport at Welsh Government.

Hello. I'm Catrin Dellar, and I'm the head of bus reform for the Welsh Government.

Hello. I'm Hannah Dudley, lawyer with legal services for the Welsh Government.

Thank you very much, and croeso. If I can start with the first question, which is a standard first question: are you satisfied that the Bill is within the Senedd's legislative competence?

Yes, thanks, Chair. Yes, we are, absolutely. Subject to a small number of provisions needing consent, we do believe that this firmly falls within legislative competence.

Okay, thank you. The explanatory memorandum does not discuss human rights. What account have you taken of human rights in preparing the Bill?

Well, Chair, as with all Senedd Bill proposals, the Welsh Government has to carry out a full human rights assessment before introduction, and we're satisfied that the provisions in this Bill are compliant.

Thank you. It's taken a long time, as you know, because you're the person responsible. Back in 2020, you introduced the Bus Services (Wales) Bill. We had COVID then, which slowed everything and stopped everything, and it was withdrawn due to COVID. What were the reasons for laying this Bill, given that the previous bus services Bill was withdrawn in 2020?

Well, it may be helpful if I ask Alex to just add her views and observations on this. But essentially, you're right, Chair, COVID upended our legislative programme, but it did give us an opportunity to revisit this particular Bill. We were moving at speed up until 2020 to try to introduce a Bill that would reform bus services. And so, what we proposed then is not as ambitious as what we've been able to propose today, and we've used that time to effectively move from a position where we gave tools under the previous Bill to local authorities to actually requiring, on a national basis, franchising across Wales. So, it takes it a huge step further, what we're proposing now. If you compare it to the UK bus Bill, the better buses Bill, that effectively offers those tools to local authorities that we were proposing with the 2020 Bill, but we're going much further with the legislation that we're proposing under our bus reform today. Alex is probably the most consistent person who's been in transport for some time, and so will be able to give a bit of an outline of what took place when I was out of Government and how we shifted from the previous Bill to the one that you're scrutinising today. So, if I could just bring in Alex, briefly, that would be really helpful, I think, Chair.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Yes. I think I'd endorse what you say, that restructuring this framework in a way that best delivers what we set out in the White Paper has been a really complex undertaking, and it's important that we take that time to get it right and put buses on a stable footing. This Bill is very different to the 2020 Bill and, as the Cabinet Secretary says, much more ambitious. I wonder if it's also worth mentioning that, in the intervening period since 2020 and since the withdrawal of the previous Bill, there has been a huge amount of work carried out, including a consultation in 2022, the publication of the road map, which is a really important document, and a huge amount of direct engagement with stakeholders. So, it's really given us that opportunity to engage and bring in a really wide range of stakeholders into the process.

Okay. Thank you very much. Sam.

Thank you very much, Chair. Good afternoon, Cabinet Secretary. Just quickly, given the Bill contains six parts, why does it not include an overview section?

That's a very good question, Sam—a very good question, Chair. I'll ask Catrin to come in with the legal angle on this, but I believe that it was on the basis of advice from the drafters of the Bill. I agree that an overview can help to contribute to the accessibility of legislation, but in this instance we're of the view that the structure of the Bill and the type of provision that's included in it is actually relatively easy to follow in its own right. So, an overview would essentially just restate the various cross-headings and sections that are already set out in the table of contents, and so we felt that duplication was not necessary and certainly not desirable. But I'll bring in Catrin.

Yes, Cabinet Secretary. Thank you. That says it all, really. We did take a look at other legislation—other Acts and current Bills of the Senedd—and I don't think it would have added. We don't think it would have added a lot, and the drafters were of that view, and we took their advice. It would just restate the cross-headings that we've got in the section titles already. So, I think the Bill is an easy one to follow compared to some, I think.

Okay. Thank you very much. And then, there are several amendments and the Bill disapplies certain provisions in Acts of Parliament, for example removing the restrictions on local authorities in Wales from providing bus services. So, are you confident, Cabinet Secretary, that all of the necessary changes have been made to primary legislation to enable the Bill to operate efficiently?

Yes. I mean, the Bill makes amendments to the existing requirement for local authorities in Wales to secure public passenger transport services that, obviously, wouldn't be provided, and the power to subsidise such services, but we are planning to table further consequential amendments at Stage 2 in respect of other existing powers—for example, in relation to the powers within the transport Act that relate to quality partnership schemes and quality contract schemes, and also ticketing schemes.

Okay. Thank you. Moving on, the explanatory memorandum explains that a response from the Ministry of Justice is expected in relation to the justice impact identification assessment on or around the introduction of this Bill. So, as the Bill has now been introduced, when will the full assessment be published?

Thank you, Chair. As the Member outlines, we completed that full justice impact assessment and I'm pleased to say that it's been cleared by the Ministry of Justice and we're due to publish that imminently. I'll make sure that you're alerted at the point at which it's published.

Okay. Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. 'Imminently'—now, are we talking this week? Are we talking before the half term recess? When would 'imminently' be, in your definition of the term?

If I may bring in Hannah, she may be able to provide a date or at least a week when we expect it to be published.

Catrin, are you able to speak to that question?

Yes. I would say in the next week or so. It's not going to be any longer than that. I think it's a matter of, now that we've had the comments back, translation and just administrative issues now.

Does that mean before half term?

Yes.

Yes. There we are. Thank you. Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary, and your team there. In summarising the powers to make subordinate legislation under the Bill, the explanatory memorandum refers to the negative and affirmative procedures. However, the Bill itself uses the procedures as named once the provisions of the Legislation (Procedure, Publication and Repeals) (Wales) Bill come into force, namely the Senedd annulment and approval procedures. Should the Senedd pass that Bill and it subsequently receives Royal Assent, will you amend the explanatory memorandum to ensure consistency within the Bill?

Yes, that's certainly our intention. The legislation Wales Bill is currently in Stage 3, so we're looking at updating the EM to reflect the wording that's captured within that particular piece of legislation. We are looking at doing that at the end of Stage 2.

Lovely, thank you. And forgive me, Cabinet Secretary, but it's me again with another series of questions. What are the key differences between the definition of 'local bus services' in this Bill and the definition of 'local services' as per the 1985 Act?

This is a really, really good question, and I may have to provide you with a briefing paper on it because the definition in the 1985 Act was just overly complicated. Essentially, under our Bill, a local bus service is a service with one or more stopping places in Wales using one or more public service vehicles for the carriage of passengers by road as separate fares. That's where passengers are picked up and then set down within 15 miles. So, the definition in section 1 is similar to the definition under section 2, and obviously it aligns with the existing definition for all practical purposes. But there are three key differences, I think. First of all, and it's for obvious reasons, services must have one or more stopping points in Wales. Then, secondly, we're excluding excursions or tours and rail replacement services from the definition. I don't think it is reasonable to expect Welsh Ministers to secure and provide excursions, days out and holiday tours. So, that's been removed. And clearly, it's for the likes of TfW, Avanti, CrossCountry and GWR to provide rail replacement services. So, that's not captured within the definition. And then, the word 'bus' is included in the definition as well. That doesn't appear within the definition in section 2 of the 1985 Act. But, if any further briefing is required on the differences, I'm more than happy to provide that, Chair. But I think I've captured pretty much all of them.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Looking to the Chair, I would welcome a briefing on that. But I do take your oral, substantive answer there, which was very comprehensive.

The Bill defines a flexible local bus service as a local bus service that is so flexible that it would not be practicable to identify its route for the purpose of the Welsh bus network plan. Will you determine which routes are 'so flexible' so as to fall within this definition?

This largely relates to demand-responsive transport, and it's going to be for Transport for Wales on behalf of the Welsh Ministers, and, crucially, in collaboration. It will be undertaken in collaboration with councils to agree that a service should have no fixed route and, therefore, as such, be included in the plan as a flexible service.

Okay. Thank you. Diolch, Cadeirydd.

Diolch. Alun.

Thank you. Cabinet Secretary, I'm interested in the structure of the Bill and the powers it provides to Ministers. In section 4, Welsh Ministers must only have regard to the objectives that are set out in section 4 of the Bill. Why is that? Surely the purpose of the powers being provided to Ministers is to deliver the functions that are set out on the face of the Bill rather than simply to have regard to the objectives.

Yes, another fine question. Essentially, it's because there has to be the flexibility for Ministers to be able to have regard to duties rather than tie Ministers' hands to achieving a particular outcome at all costs. If we were required to meet those duties, then we could end up in a situation where you don't have the finely balanced measure of meeting each of the duties. You end up prioritising one particular one at all costs to the others, where that particular one might be more difficult to achieve. So, it's all about giving flexibility to enable us to deliver better bus services across Wales.

Oh, I know it's all about flexibility—it's giving Ministers powers to do what they choose. This committee's concern is to limit those powers to the powers that are required to deliver the legislation, and my concern is that a have-regard power certainly does provide the Government with flexibility—that’s certainly true—but perhaps too much flexibility. My concern is to ensure that the powers delivered to Ministers and to Government are delineated in a more structured way.

But this shouldn't be read in isolation from the other form of scrutiny that's going to be taking place and the collaborative work that's going to be taking place by Transport for Wales on behalf of Ministers with local authorities. So, the flexibility doesn't just apply to Welsh Ministers, it applies to the system, to be able to co-ordinate and construct a network that has regard to those duties but doesn't become overly obsessed with meeting each and every one in equal terms.

I didn't say that. The position I'm seeking to clarify is the powers and how powers can be delineated. And whilst I welcome the Cabinet Secretary's commitment to consultation and collaborative working, that's all fine, but this still provides you with quite wide powers. And my concern is, if you require those powers, then surely it is better to describe what those powers are and to delineate how a Minister is able to exercise those powers rather than simply deliver those powers on a plate where it's a matter for the Government to decide what those powers are. It should be a matter for this Senedd to decide what those powers are.

I'll bring in Catrin, but there's a risk that we're conflating the powers with the duties on this, and I think the powers are pretty clear. Having regard to the duties gives us that flexibility that I've spoken about the need to have. But, Catrin, do you want to come in?

Yes, Cabinet Secretary. Thank you. I think we have to bear in mind that, in the short term, we're talking about bus reform, but. in the long term, it's a business-as-usual way of delivering a dynamic bus service across Wales. And I think the nature of the generational change that we'll see with buses is that, in the first instance, it might mean that some of the objectives may conflict, or even one might be more pre-eminent than another in order to get where we need to get to. So, for example, in establishing a new model, we may be more focusing on promoting the use of services rather than reducing emissions, which is obviously very important and we're tied by other legislation there and rightfully so. But this will need to be the case because we may still need to buy diesel buses in order to provide more services to encourage more people out of their cars. And in this way, all of the objectives need to be considered, but one can have pre-eminence over the others. And that, I think, is what we're really encouraging and why flexibility is really needed in this case, because we need to be dynamic. We need local authorities and Welsh Ministers and Transport for Wales to work with other partners to understand which of those objectives we can focus on. But, at the same time, we'll still have to be able to demonstrate that we are considering all of them as part of our policy making.

I think, Chair, in addition, if we were to place Ministers under a duty to achieve a certain outcome, there is the risk that Ministers would then come into conflict with local authorities during the process of consulting on network maps and on outcomes. So, having that flexibility isn't just about making sure that Ministers can deliver for passengers and for people in Wales; it’s about making sure that we can work with local authorities to do so.

I don't think anybody objects to either flexibility or the capacity to deliver change. I remember campaigning on bus reform with Huw Lewis back in the 2007 Senedd, so we’ve waited for it for long enough. So, I don't have any issues there. My concern is how do we hold Ministers and the Government to account when they are taking decisions where the powers have a level of flexibility to enable Ministers essentially to—I don't want to say 'do as they like'—operate in a way that is, perhaps, beyond the reach of scrutiny or accountability.

There are various means for scrutinising Welsh Ministers on this. First of all, the plans have to be consulted upon within the regions. We're establishing a memorandum of understanding as well with the corporate joint committees to ensure that, effectively, CJCs are able to then propose the networks to Ministers. And then furthermore, the Bill requires Welsh Ministers to report to the Senedd on the extent to which the exercise of their functions has contributed towards achieving the objectives in section 4. There'll also be then, further to that, an opportunity for the Senedd to examine and scrutinise Ministers' actions. And then, the reporting requirement, coupled with the duty to lay revised network plans, ensures that the Senedd is able to keep a watching brief over what Ministers are doing.

I'm confident that the Senedd has the capability and the capacity to be able to fully scrutinise what Welsh Ministers are striving to achieve with the network map and the plan as a whole, and, in so doing, curtail any powers that Members feel might be excessive. But I feel that what we are proposing is both proportionate and pragmatic. I think flexibility is absolutely vital in order to achieve what we have laid out in our aspirations in the road map to franchising.

I don't think anybody disagrees with the flexibility being appropriate. I think the issue is where the flexibility starts and ends, and where proper ministerial powers are delineated. I haven't argued against flexibility in that way; I simply want those powers to be delineated. But in terms of where we are and where we're going here, you talk about the different objectives and your officials have spoken about how those objectives can work together, and how some can sometimes potentially be in conflict, and that's fine. I appreciate and understand that.

But in the reports that you outline towards your section 4 objectives, the EM also sets out additional matters that you will be including in there. I accept the reporting mechanism that you've described in the Bill, but surely this should be on the face of the legislation to enable not just the Senedd but others who are affected by the work of the Government to understand what is required and what the Government will be reporting, because that surely underpins a greater sense of accountability than simply including something in an EM.

Chair, what I wanted was an approach that included on the face of the Bill what balances the need to make progress towards the objectives with the need to demonstrate how the functions are being exercised. Further information in the report may include matters that are connected to the wider delivery of bus services or the network that don't directly relate to the objectives, and they may include actions that we plan to take going forward and wider achievements or issues identified that require an improvement. They're not included in the Bill because we need to allow, again, the flexibility to understand exactly what they would be.

Technology is moving on at pace. Different behaviour patterns will influence the provision of bus services. But we think that any additional matters that are relevant to the Senedd or the public in the delivery of the objectives should be included in the report. I think it's absolutely vital that we're completely transparent with any additional matters.

I'll leave it at that. Thank you very much.

Thank you. Sam.

Thank you, Chair. Apologies, Cabinet Secretary—it's me again. But looking at section 5(2) of the Bill, it sets out the key particulars of local bus services that must be included in the Welsh bus network plan. Was consideration given to including a delegated power that would allow this list of key particulars to be amended by secondary legislation?

Chair, I'm not of the view that a power to amend the description of the key particulars is necessary, I'm afraid. They're very unlikely to change in this context, I think.

Why do you believe that they're very unlikely to change?

Because it is a pretty consistent approach that we're taking, and I don't believe that that power is required at all. Catrin.

They're standard services in terms of what we traditionally think of as bus services; they have stopping points along a given route. And the same with demand-responsive services—Fflecsi services. We can't see how those would change. They're pretty new compared to the standard services. But consistently, it's about geographical area and, potentially, any other key points that we want to include in there, but the geographical area is the main particular there.

One thought I've been having with regard to this is the future of flight and autonomous mobility using drones, but if they were to be introduced as a form of transport, they could not possibly be considered bus services. So, I think we're safe in the position that we're in, as outlined by Catrin.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. It's nice to know that you're looking to the future, as well, with potential drone travel. Sections 6 and 8 of the Bill set out a number of stakeholders that must be consulted during the preparation of the draft Welsh bus network plan, or when preparing a revised draft plan. Why shouldn't there be an express duty to consult with English local authorities when an English authority may be affected by a cross-border service?

Well, Chair, I live in a cross-border area. I can see the English border from where I live, so I know how important cross-border services are when preparing and revising a transport plan and its nature. So, consultation with English local authorities is covered; it's covered by sections 6(4)(g) and 8(4)(g) of the Bill. Under these provisions, Welsh Ministers will be required to consult with English local authorities. But they'll be required to consult on cross-border services when it's considered appropriate, rather than the entire network map. We didn't feel that it'd be appropriate to have to consult with English local authorities on all of the map. That would not be proportionate or desirable.

No, I understood that. You mentioned section 6(4)(g) and 8(4)(g), which do allow Welsh Ministers to consult with any other person. So, you're satisfied that that 'any other person' is sufficient when it comes to English local authorities.

Yes, I am. It's also just worth highlighting that the process of getting to where we are has meant that we've had to work very collaboratively on a cross-border basis already. So, systems, functions and bodies are already established for that form of cross-border consultation—in this area, for example, with Growth Track 360 and the Mersey Dee Alliance. So, those bodies, those processes of consultation, are already in place. And it's not just about the local authorities as well, because we can also—through the likes of Growth Track 360 and the MDA—draw in education institutions on both sides of the border, as an example of how we're going to be consulting on the network that's cross border in nature.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Subsections (7) to (9) in section 6 provide that the Welsh Ministers may prepare a draft of the Welsh bus network plan and seek views and consult in relation to that plan, prior to the rest of section 6 coming into force. Why were these provisions considered necessary?

That's basically because a huge amount of work has already been done by Transport for Wales and others to develop and, indeed, to consult on the network plan, as the intention is to publish the initial version, subject to Royal Assent, as soon as possible in the new year. So, these powers enable us, essentially, to capture the work that's being done already, as part of a requirement for the development of the network plan, in time for rolling out the bus model next year.

Thank you. Section 7 provides that where any revision is made to the Welsh bus network plan, that revised plan must be laid before the Senedd within the period of 13 months, beginning with the date on which the plan was most recently laid. Can I ask why 13 months was deemed appropriate?

It gives a little bit of flexibility. It allows for recess, it allows for slippage. We would aim to be able to publish the plan around the same time every year, but given that recess dates do change, it just provides that small amount of flexibility of one month.

Understood. Section 8 provides that some of the requirements around seeking views and consulting on a proposed revision to the Welsh bus network plan do not apply where the proposed revision is, quote, no more than minor or it would, quote, not be reasonably practicable to consult over the proposed revision. How will you consider what is no more than minor for the purpose of the exception, and in what circumstances would it not be reasonably practicable to consult on a proposed revision?

Well, obviously, given the nature of transport and road works, there will inevitably be times when minor revisions are required due to emergency works or resurfacing and therefore a route is diverted. In those circumstances the work might actually not take as long as consultation would take and so it wouldn't be desirable, it wouldn't be necessary to conduct consultation because it would be such a small and unavoidable change and one that wouldn't actually change the stopping points for the overall time frame of the journey.

Okay. Thank you, Chair.

Thank you very much. Moving on swiftly, I think, to me. We've made very good progress today; let's hope that we can continue. Section 17 provides that the Welsh Ministers may directly provide a local bus service so long as they are satisfied that doing so would be a more effective way than entering into a local bus service contract. How would you determine whether the direct provision of service would be more effective?

Well, there are some examples that I could perhaps outline to demonstrate this. One might be that if, under the franchise model, bidders came back and highlighted that within a package of routes one would be incredibly expensive to operate, it might then be more desirable for us to operate it directly. The whole purpose of this measure is to make sure that we can keep wheels on the road and keep the network operating in the best way possible in those circumstances and, indeed, if a business was to fail. And then equally, and I sincerely hope and I doubt that this will happen, but equally if there was a package of routes and bidders came back to say it's not cost effective for them to bid, then in those circumstances Transport for Wales could provide them directly. So, again it's about making sure that we take a pragmatic approach and one that is flexible to enable us in all circumstances and all eventualities to provide bus services across the entire network map.

Okay. Thank you very much. Section 25 gives the Welsh Ministers power to give notice to current and former operators to require those operators to provide certain information to them. Section 25 provides that the regulation may make provision about appeals. Is it appropriate for a provision about appeals to be set out in secondary legislation rather than on the face of the Bill?

Chair, if I may, I'll invite one of the lawyers, the experts, to talk to this piece, if that's okay—perhaps Alex.

Thanks, Cabinet Secretary. Yes, I’m happy to. So, the content of this provision might vary as we move through the process from the current deregulated model through a relatively lengthy transition and into business as usual under the franchise model. Transport for Wales are already working with industry representatives and operators to understand the sort of information they currently hold and the means in which they retain it, which can obviously differ quite significantly between small and large operators, and we want to be able to work with all operators to ensure clarity and fairness in our expectations around the sharing of information. So, given that this provision about appeals may need to be amended over time to make sure it remains fit for purpose, it's considered appropriate for provision to be made in regulations rather than on the face of the Bill. Again that word—it's important that Welsh Ministers have the flexibility to reflect those changes.

Section 16 provides that appeals relating to local bus services permits may be made to the first-tier tribunal, whereas appeals relating to the enforcement of the restrictions on providing local bus services under section 24 and those relating to the enforcement information required under section 31 are to be made to the upper tribunal. Could you explain why 24 and 31 rely on appeals being made to the upper tribunal, rather than the first-tier tribunal?

Yes, of course, Chair. So, both sections 24 and 31 make provision for appeals against enforcement decisions made by a traffic commissioner under sections 23 and 30 to be dealt with by the upper tribunal, and, as the role of a traffic commissioner is quasi-judicial, it's appropriate therefore that any appeals go to the upper tribunal for determination as a superior court.

Okay. Before I call Alun Davies in to ask some questions, I'll just ask you one. The big problem we’ve got with buses at the moment is they spend a lot of time stationary because they can't get ahead of their timetable, and their timetable is controlled by the fact that they get financially penalised if they end up late getting to the final destination. That has stopped through-buses. We used to have—it doesn't mean anything to you—a Morriston to Mumbles bus. We don't any more; you have to change in Swansea, because, if you're late in Swansea, you'll be late along the rest of the journey. And also buses really do spend a lot of time stationary, waiting to move on, just in case they get caught in a traffic jam. Is this going to deal with any of that? Is the penalty going to come off, and are buses going to work as efficiently as possible, rather than making sure they are not late?

Yes, that's absolutely the aim, and, through our engagement with the sector and with drivers themselves, it has become clear that there are certain penalties that do not act in the interests of passengers. So, we're working on the package of contracts, the package of routes, with operators to make sure that they do serve the needs of passengers, rather than have these bizarre arrangements in place that can sometimes detract from what we're trying to achieve.

Okay, thank you. I spend a lot of time stationary, looking at the stadium, waiting for the bus to be able to move on again. Alun, you've got some questions on franchising.

Very briefly, Chair. The whole Bill seems to be predicated on the policy of franchising, but the Bill itself seems to be relatively quiet on that. So, I'm just interested as to—. The Bus Services (Wales) Bill 2020 you referred to earlier referred specifically to Welsh franchising schemes. So, is there a reason why the Bill has been written in the way that it's written?

Yes, really good question, actually, and this relates to existing law and the lack of definition for franchising. But I think probably one of the lawyers would be better able to explain the situation as it currently stands. I think Hannah is probably the person that I should bring in for this.

Yes, sure. Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. So, the UK doesn't have laws that exclusively govern or define the relationship between franchisers and franchisees. That relationship is governed by the contract in place. So, for that reason, it was felt unnecessary and potentially unclear, given the lack of a legal definition, to refer to franchising in the Bill. The system proposed by the Bill is different to the system proposed in 2020, which focused on changing the existing legal framework in respect of local authority powers to secure bus services. So, the terminology used won't necessarily be the same. I know, in the previous 2020 Bill, there was a reference to Welsh franchising schemes. So, whilst the current Bill doesn't expressly refer to franchising, it refers to the mechanism by which franchising will be achieved, and that is that the Welsh Ministers will enter local bus service contracts with operators.

Okay, thank you. That's very clear. And do you believe, Cabinet Secretary, that you've got the necessary legal framework for procuring franchise packages for current legislation, in terms of that the Social Partnership and Public Procurement Act 2023 and the Procurement Act 2023 provide the framework and basis for procurement practice in Wales? Are you confident it provides you with the sufficient powers, if you like, or sufficient structures that you're able to deliver this in practice?

Yes. Yes, I am confident recent legislation is relevant to this and provides us with the powers necessary to be able to undertake franchising. I'm more than confident; the advice that I've had from lawyers amounts to the confidence that's needed to go forward with franchising arrangements.

Thank you. Cabinet Secretary and your colleagues, can I thank you very much for coming along and giving evidence to us today? You know that a transcript will be coming to you, and you've got an opportunity to correct any factual errors. So, again, thank you very much.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Thank you. Thanks very much.

Can we move into a short break for five minutes so that everybody moves around?

Croeso yn ôl. Welcome back. Item 4: instruments that raise issues to be reported to the Senedd under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3. The Procurement (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2025, paper 4, draft report: these regulations make substantive amendments to the Procurement (Wales) Regulations 2024 to enable the implementation of the Procurement Act 2023. Senedd lawyers have identified eight technical reporting points. A Welsh Government response has not yet been received, though I think you'll update me if it has. We have Kate from our legal team, who would like to run through the reporting points and any Welsh Government response we've had.

Thank you. One of the eight technical reporting points relates to potentially defective drafting in relation to a definition. Two of the points identify inconsistencies between the Welsh and English language texts, and then the remaining five are seeking further information from Welsh Government about particular issues. So, for example, one of the points seeks clarity as to why there's an inconsistency between how periods of time are described in the existing 2024 regulations and in the amendments made by these regulations. In addition, although not noted in the draft report, Members might want to note that these regulations are addressing reporting points that were raised by this committee on previous procurement regulations, and we're still waiting for the Welsh Government response.

Thanks, Kate. Members, do you have anything to raise? Okay.

Moving on to item 5, instruments that raise issues to be reported to the Senedd under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3 previously considered. The committee considered this instrument, the Agricultural Wages (Wales) Order 2025, at its meeting of 24 March and laid its report the same day. We have correspondence from the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs, which responds to our letter on 30 April requesting clarification around the response to point 4 in the committee’s initial report.

The Deputy First Minister states that the issue highlighted in point 4 does not affect the provision’s functionality within the 2025 Order, and confirms that the issue identified will not be repeated in the 2026 Order. Have you got anything to add, Kate? No. Do Members have anything they want to add? No. Okay, thank you very much.

Notification and correspondence under the inter-institutional relations agreement. Correspondence from the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs: the Phytosanitary Conditions (Amendment) Regulations 2025. The Deputy First Minister informs us of his intention to consent to the Phytosanitary Conditions (Amendment) Regulations 2025 being made, which will apply to Wales, England and Scotland. He says in his letter that:

'The Regulations protect biosecurity and support trade between Great Britain (“GB”) and third countries by introducing and amending protective measures against pests of plants.'

Do Members have any comments? No. Item 6.2 is correspondence from the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning on the Interministerial Group on UK-EU Relations. The Cabinet Secretary's letter informs us that the next meeting of the Interministerial Group on UK-EU Relations is due to take place today, 12 May. Are we content to note it? And do we know if it's taken place?

We don't know if it has.

Okay. Correspondence from the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning on the memorandum of understanding on the economic inactivity trailblazer in Wales. The Cabinet Secretary’s letter informs us that a memorandum of understanding has been agreed between the UK Government’s Department for Work and Pensions and the Welsh Government for the overall delivery of the economic inactivity trailblazer in Wales. Do Members have any comments they wish to make? No.

A written statement by the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs on the third biannual Welsh Government REUL Act update. The Deputy First Minister’s written statement provides an update on regulations made under the Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Act 2023 between June and December 2024. He states that, during the reporting period, Welsh Ministers have not made any regulations under the powers conferred on them by the Act, although they have consented to the use of concurrent powers in the Act for one statutory instrument, the Official Controls (Amendment) Regulations 2024. He goes on to note that the UK Government laid two statutory instruments using powers in the Act, and that both are in wholly reserved areas, and the UK Government did not seek consent from Welsh Ministers. Do Members have any comments they wish to make? No.

We move on to the next item, papers to note. Correspondence from the Finance Committee to committee Chairs, 1 April 2025. The Finance Committee is requesting the views of committees on the scrutiny of the Welsh Government draft budget 2025-26 and how improvements can be made for the 2026-27 draft budget. The deadline for responses is 23 May, in advance of the Plenary debate on the budget priorities 2026-27, which will be led by the Finance Committee. Do you want to return to that in private session? Yes.

Item 7.2, correspondence from the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government on the draft Senedd Cymru (Disqualification) Order 2025. The Cabinet Secretary’s letter informs us that the draft Order will be brought forward in October, and provides attached information regarding proposed disqualifications. The Cabinet Secretary has asked for our views, and asks for responses by 27 June. Shall we note it now and return to it in private session? Yes. Okay.

In accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi), I invite the committee to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting. Do Members agree? Yes. Okay.