Standards of Conduct Committee

Yes. Thank you, Chair, for inviting me to give a bit of background. This is an issue that we've been working on for a very long time. Some of main points, I guess, I wanted to talk about today were—. TUC Cymru very much recognises that sexual harassment isn't a low-level issue, but it is part of a much wider relentless culture of sexual violence and misogyny. It's a global issue and clearly it gets dealt with very, very differently across the world, but across workplaces as well, whether that's public sector or private sector or third sector or for people who are self-employed. It is a big issue and it comes up on a very regular basis.

On a practical basis, some of the things that we have done: we've been working with Welsh Women's Aid and we've produced a toolkit on sexual harassment in the workplace. In that toolkit, there's a number of things that it does. You can identify, first and foremost, what workplace sexual harassment actually is, and it offers some very practical and effective support to those who are experiencing it. It gives you an opportunity to understand some of the legalities around workplace sexual harassment. It also then helps you navigate some of those conversations and negotiations that sometimes people then need to enter into with their employer, particularly for union reps who are representing individuals who have experienced sexual harassment in the workplace, but also then it's about how you hold employers accountable—so, what is the employer's legal responsibility to prevent sexual harassment from happening in the first place.

We've got a campaign for a zero-tolerance approach to workplace sexual harassment through various preventative measures, and, over the next couple of months, you will see we've produced—. We're in the process of producing a series of films. We've been working with Cowshed, who have already been doing some work with a number of different organisations on this issue.

I should probably, at this stage, also declare that I am the co-chair for the Violence Against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence workplace harassment sub-group, and so a lot of the work that we have been doing as TUC Cymru has crossed over there as well. The good thing about that sub-group too is that everything that I'm going to say has pretty much come up there as well. So, even if you were to check in with them, you would probably hear very similar things.

We've also produced a course for union reps, because union reps themselves have said, 'What exactly do I need to do? I'm not confident that this is an issue that I can deal with very quickly. I'm not sure if I'm genned up on all the—. I'm not up to date, necessarily, with what is happening.' So, we've done something very practical in terms of producing that course, and it's a course and a model that managers can then follow as well. It is something that can be delivered and done on a social partnership basis. And talking about employers as well, we have been working, through the union movement, with a number of employers, for example the Welsh ambulance service. We've done some good collaborative work there. And then, of course, we've been trying to help parts of the fire service as well, where there have been a number of different reports that we've seen more recently.

I think it is important then for me as well to say that TUC Cymru very much welcomes the committee's decision to revisit the critical issue of dignity and respect in the Senedd. Of course, the Senedd is a democratic institution and it's important then that it models the highest standards of behaviour. And of course this inquiry offers a valuable opportunity to reinforce that message about standards and ensure that the culture of the Senedd reflects the values, of course, that it promotes.

And then, when you talk about values, of course, that will obviously take me to the fact that it is important then that we have a complaints system that people can actually trust, and it's got to be completely independent. It can't be handled internally or influenced by any of the politics. That’s got to be very much kept out. And I say that too because we have seen this in the union movement as well. It's not as if sexual harassment isn't an issue in unions themselves, with unions as employers or unions as spaces where we have democratic structures for our union reps. There have been a number of different reports that have highlighted the issue, and they've all said you need an independent process. If there is a complaint, it has to be independent.

And we know that if somebody's been bullied, or they've been harassed or even worse, they deserve to be heard. They deserve to be heard, and they deserve then, of course, to be supported by people who have got that expertise in how you handle some of those situations, which can be tricky. But, of course, we know that culture starts at the top, and so if we want to have a respectful, inclusive Senedd then leaders and their parties need to walk the talk. They should be actively promoting good behaviour and holding others to account when they fall short. Nobody should feel like their job is going to be at risk—I think that's really important—or their reputation, by calling out bad behaviour. So, if you point something out, whether it's you who's experiencing it or if you have seen it, you've witnessed it and you call out that bad behaviour, you should then not be in a position where, all of a sudden, fingers are being pointed in your direction and you're feeling vulnerable and unsure as to what you do next.

And disrespect and harassment—it's not necessarily going to look the same for everybody, (1) because of our individual sort of—who we are, whether that's our race, our gender, our disability or sexual orientation. All of these things then, of course, shape how people experience work, and then policies and training have got to then reflect that. So, that's got to be multilayered. The intersectional experience of workers has got to be reflected. And again, for our training, we have made sure that that is the case. It may also be the case that other workplace policies within the Senedd and the wider public sector itself then need to be updated alongside the work that this inquiry is going to be doing and some of the recommendations that you are going to be, hopefully, making.

And then finally, in terms of my opening comments, just to say that it is really important then that you do the heavy lifting now, but you don't then forget that, actually, you need a review period. Having that review on a regular basis is going to be important. And then I think you need to start considering publishing anonymised statistics, listening to feedback. What people need to see—. In order to have confidence in the system as well, people need to see that you are listening and that you are improving that culture. It needs to look different, it needs to feel different, and, ultimately, that's how trust is built, because trust is the biggest issue here.

Thanks for that. That's what we've said as a committee—we’re trying to increase confidence in the system, and that's politicians, but, you know as a trade unionist, the process that underpins that is an important part of that, having that and instilling that confidence.

I just want to touch—I know other Members will want to come in—upon a couple of points you made, first around a system that's independent of politics, independent, say, of Senedd Members and politicians. I just wondered if the Wales TUC has any views on what a more independent process would look like for the Senedd in terms of, potentially, having the right people in the room or the right support there in terms of expertise. You know that the system as it stands, the standards commissioner, is independent, but it is just one person. So, I wonder if you have any views around that.

Yes, absolutely. So, this is where I should probably refer to, actually, in—. There was a congress motion back in 2022, and I'll touch on a couple of key bits of that congress motion and resolution that was passed in order for you to get a bit of a feel. 'Congress notes that, under current procedures, final decisions on recommended sanctions against the MSs found to have breached standards of conduct must be endorsed by the whole Senedd, a startling example of institutions marking their own homework. Congress recognises that the current procedures fall short of the fully independent process for dealing with complaints put in place at Westminster following Dame Laura Cox's inquiry into bullying and harassment of House of Commons staff. It is the FDA's experience from all corners of the UK that only an independent process that is completely free from political interference can work. If there is an opportunity for self-regulation, politics will take precedence over fairness and the victims of bullying, harassment and sexual harassment will be failed. Everyone deserves to be treated with dignity and respect in the workplace.' And then it goes on about people needing to have confidence in the system.

But it also touches on the fact that Senedd Commission and Welsh Government staff work with all MSs. The current process is inhibiting. Staff do not wish to be seen to complain to Members with whom they have an ongoing professional relationship. An independent process would improve confidence and encourage increased early reporting of potential problem behaviour. And it called on the general council to support the FDA's campaign for the Senedd to implement a fully independent process, one in which MSs play no part, up to and including decisions on sanctions.

So, from our perspective then, that really talks about the fact that—. And I know that Unite the Union have also given evidence and, of course, Deryn have also given evidence that very much speaks to this. So, from our perspective, I guess, an effective system, yes, of course, it should be independent. There should be impartiality there in the professionals—no political influence there. It should be specialist led—that's really important; people who actually understand the stuff and deal with this on a regular basis. The investigators should be selected based on relevant experience, particularly in areas such as sexual misconduct, bullying or harassment. The complainants should have access then to independent sexual violence advisers or equivalent professionals to ensure that they're protected and empowered throughout the process.

When it comes to policies and procedures, they are important, and again it is about changing culture and genuine commitment from leadership. But, in order for that to be the case, Members of the Senedd are then held accountable for their role in maintaining a respectful culture. Accountability is very key. Training can't be a tick-box exercise. As I say, the training programme that we've developed is with Adult Learning Wales and, again, we would be happy to talk to the committee about that in more detail and maybe share some of that.

So, there's a number of different things. There's a lot of good practice out there and, of course, there's a number of different people who have introduced new processes already. So, I think there are some really good examples and there are some specialists already who are independent who could very much help you build a really strong, solid system who are involved in the sub-group, the VAWDASV workplace harassment sub-group, as well.

Thanks. I can see Mick's got his hand up. Just one final thing and then I will then bring you in, Mick. You were talking about that independent expertise, and this work is part of a broader reform package of work that the committee is working on and we recently reported on recall and around deliberate deception. And one of the recommendations in one of those reports was to amend the Government of Wales Act 2006 to be able to introduce lay members to the Standards of Conduct Committee, which the Welsh Government has accepted, and was going to look to bring forward legislation before 2026. Is this something that Wales TUC would see as a step in the right direction and be supportive of?

I think so. I think it's going to give people confidence because, of course, the Senedd structure is going to change and the Senedd is set to expand. If we are trying to encourage more diverse people with various different lived experience to come into the Senedd as well, I think it definitely gives those individuals the confidence, but also other Members of the Senedd and Senedd staff who have been there for a long time and have never felt that they can come forward.

Mick.

Thank you. Within the policy that you read out, and looking at the systems that we have at the moment, there are a number of major challenges, constitutionally, and certain principles that have to be there. I suppose the question is what we actually mean by 'independence', because, by law, we have an independent standards commissioner. So, I suppose the first point to ask you about, Shavanah, is the issue of whether it is really about the skills base of the standards commissioner's office and its role and function et cetera.

The second thing is the process—an independent process—because this committee is a quasi-judicial committee in terms of the way it operates et cetera, and whether that is regarded as independent. Because one of the potential problems, of course, is, constitutionally, a parliament should have control over its own affairs in the sense that the ability externally to, for example, remove people or whatever poses all sorts of constitutional and political challenges and questions, et cetera. I think you mentioned that, ultimately, this should be investigated independently, and when you say 'investigated independently', independently in terms of sanctions as well. But does that not then pose—?

I suppose I'm not really asking you now to resolve; I suppose what I'm doing is trying to highlight that there are a number of things that need to be thought through very carefully and constitutionally in order to achieve something that is workable, but also that is constitutionally viable as well. I'm just wondering what your thoughts are in terms of the current process. Is it the view of the Wales TUC, for example, that the process is, in itself, an independent process, but that can be improved by a number of measures in terms of whether it's resources, whether it's the skills base, and by the way certain cases are investigated?

The second point would be, of course, the definition of what it is you're saying is a special case in terms of harassment and so on, because it overlaps into areas of bullying, discrimination and so on, and once you go into those areas, all sorts of others come in. So, I suppose it's a question of do we want too tied a definition that then hampers or restricts which category investigations are undertaken in. And again, I'm not expecting, really, an answer, but just your thoughts about some of the potential challenges that there might be in achieving reform. I think that's what we're looking at.

I'm not a constitutional expert, of course, so I should probably declare that and be open about that straight away. But what I will say is that, at the moment, you have one system, and if somebody complains about something, I can't see where the expertise is. I personally would not have the confidence in saying to an individual that if you submit a complaint at the moment, you will be protected in the workplace. That's problematic, of course, and so having an independent system—. And, of course, we've seen those changes in Westminster, so I think that there are some lessons definitely to be learnt from what they've introduced there.

It is going to require proper resources, and you are going to have to work out some of the detail here. In terms of the question that's just been posed now, I'd be happy to come back and give it some thought and submit something in writing with a bit more detail. But, at the moment, I would say that there needs to be some transparency in terms of the reporting. And even with the new system, whatever that ends up being, complaints received, and the actions that are then taken, should be appropriately anonymised. The effectiveness of training and policy interventions is going to be key. I think surveying staff is going to be important, and then, as I've continuously said, having clear and well publicised reporting mechanisms is important here.

I'm not saying that the challenge is easy here. And of course, sometimes, what we find as trade unionists is that somebody talks to you and they say, 'I feel like I'm being bullied by my employer', 'I think I'm being bullied. I'm not sure if I'm being bullied', and you end up having that conversation, and the further you dig in, you then start finding out that, actually, there's a number of different other issues that are going on in the background, and maybe there's a bit of an ongoing history there. So, it started off with something very small and it got bigger over time, but at the moment the focus is on this one particular issue. Just because a complaint has maybe started off as bullying and harassment, it could end up being multilayered, and there could be lots of other aspects that get drawn into it.

I think that this challenging piece around where do you start and stop one particular process is something that's going to have to be given some thought, and I think that this is where the experts will definitely be able to help you design a complaints system that stands up, that people recognise, that is independent, and ultimately does give confidence to people to come forward as well. And, of course, this is about culture change, and that comes from leadership, and that comes from being transparent and learning as we go on. I don't think that it would be right for me to say that you've got to get it perfect straight away, but there's definitely room for significant improvement at the moment.

Thank you.

Thanks. Peredur.

Thank you so much for this morning, for coming in and giving your evidence. I was listening attentively to what you said to start with, and just wanted to probe a little bit further. What strikes me in all the evidence that we've taken is really how do you address that power imbalance within the workplace, especially in a parliament where you have elected Members, you have staff, you have all that, and drawing those comparisons with unions, it's similar with elected people there. So, how do you address that, and how do we make that system work? Because the other thing that you said earlier was that it doesn't look the same for everybody, but then we're creating a system that has to try and encapsulate that. Could you unpack that a little bit? Do you have any examples of where that's done well? Who's actually working on this that you could point to and say, 'That wouldn't be a bad model for you to look at'? And then, I agree with you on a review period for anything, because it's that constant improvement. But maybe if you'd like to address that to start with, please.

Yes, sure. We did a survey. As I say, this is something that we've been working on for a really long time, and it is work that's ongoing. It's not like the work stops, because as time goes on you learn something new and things change. And even when we have held a number of different conferences for public sector leaders recently on tackling sexual harassment and some of the new legal obligations that they have on employers, and we've done that in social partnership by bringing in senior trade union reps, the main thing that people turn around and say is, 'We're trying to figure out, Shav, whether we should just expand our existing policy that we already have in place around dignity and respect in the workplace, that covers a variety of different issues in terms of race, gender et cetera—all of the following—or should we have a separate policy particularly on tackling sexual harassment and abuse in the workplace.' And the advice is always—and the Equality and Human Rights Commission advice as well, the guidance that they recently produced—that it should be completely separate.

So, it should be separate. Of course, there will be some overlap there at times, but it should be very separate, because by having a dignity and respect policy, you've then got to take into account all of that intersectional nature of discrimination. So, for example, the experience of a black woman in the workplace may differ significantly from that of her white male colleague, particularly if her terms and conditions are different. That's another issue there. Policy and training have got to address how sexism, racism, ableism, homophobia, transphobia and other forms of discrimination overlap, and then of course how they reinforce each other. Data collection is really key, but also that analysis piece, that would really help you. And that could then help reflect some of the complexity to ensure that no group is being left behind. So, if you were to look at some of that data and break that down, I think that that could really make a difference.

It goes back continuously for me—. I know that, in some of the evidence that has been submitted from Unite, for example, the Unite Senedd support staff branch, they've made it very clear that MS support staff aren't clear on the steps to take and any support available to them, that they have lost faith and confidence in the system and process as it stands. They've also, understandably, asked how they can make a complaint to the Commission or the Senedd process, as they deal with both Members of the Senedd and support staff. And then, of course, it is about the nature of the complaints. Currently, it doesn't give people in more vulnerable positions confidence in coming forward in making a complaint regarding inappropriate behaviour against a fellow MS.

Going to, then, the reports, we've had the Kennedy review and the Monaghan review, and this is specifically in relation to sexual harassment that's taken place within trade unions themselves. Some of the issues there that they have highlighted, I would recommend that the committee looks at those reports. There are some excellent recommendations there that you could really learn from. And of course, they've made it very clear that we don't deny or minimise the harm that sexual harassment has caused within trade unions. Unions themselves have got a lot of learning to do, and we see that on a regular basis. It's part of the reason why we've been doing the work that we have been doing.

But I think that some of the big things here, now, are that we all need to understand that the new Worker Protection (Amendment of Equality Act 2010) Act 2023 makes it very clear that it provides a preventative model. So, this is about prevention. Prevention is better than cure, as they always say, and we need to ensure that everything is being done to tackle sexual harassment when it actually happens and that it isn't something that is left in the books of history for one day, to be picked up; it's got to be something that people feel that they can deal with now.

There was something that we did do. It's probably worth me also saying that, from a trade union perspective, we would like to see sexual harassment being considered as a workplace health and well-being issue as well as a cultural, societal and economic issue. And the work that TUC Cymru did on the menopause—. So, there was some work that we did on the menopause. It gave a gender-sensitive risk assessment tool within that, and I think that that provides a model, then, for considering this particular matter as a health and safety issue. So, I think that there are some really good examples there.

Ultimately, this comes back down to the fact that the Welsh Government have, quite rightly, been very upfront about their intention to make sure that Wales becomes the safest place for women. If that is the case, one of the asks that I have today is for the Welsh Government to consider setting up a cross-European working group to undertake research on the actions that other countries are taking, to share some of the best practice and to learn and develop an understanding of the cultural norms around workplace sexual harassment and the wider culture of violence against women. Maybe there is an opportunity here for the Senedd itself to consider setting up a specific cross-party group on workplace sexual harassment and a wider anti-sexual harassment committee as well. And I think that, if you do all of these things, it can then actually help us as well get on to that kind of global stage in relation to cultural norms on sexual violence and what we will and what we will not put up with.

And just touching back here on the question now and earlier on about resources, I think that it is really important that there is some consideration now given about the longer term consideration for the funding of the WWA’s Live Fear Free helpline. That helpline helps so many people, and it's not just women who access that helpline; we know a lot of men access that helpline as well. A lot of union reps access that helpline, as do employers as well. It's an excellent tool, and I think there should be some serious consideration given there to the Welsh Women's Aid Live Fear Free helpline.

And one of the final things, I guess, again, talking about the different experiences of individuals and what they face, and how multilayered it is, is that I think it is time now, when it comes to non-disclosure agreements, that we are very clear that they have become quite a bit of a manipulative tool to manipulate victims who come forward, and I think that it would be really worth while for the Welsh Government to undertake proper research now into how far NDAs are being used to silence victims, and the Senedd itself should really consider not using NDAs, or settlement agreements, as they are also known. From a principled perspective, I think that’s going to be really key and that’s going to be really important for that.

And then, just to say, social partnership makes such a big difference—for the union movement to be very upfront and say, 'This is a problem for us, it’s a problem for employers and, potentially, it becomes a problem then for us when our union reps themselves are the ones who are causing harm to others.' So, it’s important that they are trained up, that they understand what is and what is not acceptable to the union movement, what is and isn’t acceptable to the workplace, to employers, and in anything that we do, particularly given that we have that social partnership and procurement legislation in Wales, that we look at that legislation and see what else we can do to help move this work along and to create a culture of Welsh workplaces where we can all feel comfortable, where we can be happy to go into work on a daily basis, and, actually, we’re no longer seen as the outlier that has this really strange approach to tackling these issues, but are confident enough to face up to the truth and to introduce a completely independent system that is properly resourced as well.

Thank you. I agree with an awful lot of that—it's great. Going back to the question I asked about who does this well, or who has implemented the report and the recommendations, who has done it well?

I would say, from an employer perspective, it's an ongoing journey, but some of the work that the Welsh ambulance trust has done I think is really good. They're doing some really good work in this area and they have approached that from a social partnership lens. It hasn't been easy, but they have been on a journey, and I think I would say they're doing some really good work in this space as well. Of course, it's been an ongoing issue in sport and there are a number of different bodies that have been approaching this. Again, it's about being upfront, and I think everyone's in a learning mode, so nobody has got it perfectly correct yet. I think everyone is in learning mode. There are lots of different options out there, but, ultimately, if the change doesn't come from the top and if you don't embed that culture change, that's where it all falls down. So, you can have the most perfectly written policies, the best website, a great helpline, you can have all your surveys, you can have all of these things, but if people don't feel like something has changed in the workplace, then it doesn't make any difference whatsoever. So, I would say that there are some good examples out there, but it's ongoing.

Diolch, Chair.

Thanks. I am conscious of time, but, Sam, I'm going to give you an opportunity to come in, because you haven't had a chance yet.

Bless you. Thank you, Chair. Good morning, Shavanah. Thank you for the evidence so far. Following on from Peredur's questioning there on pockets of good practice, where are we as a Senedd at the moment? Where would you put us? Where are we ranked on dealing with these sorts of issues?

It goes back to, I think, the point that I made earlier on and the fact that I have referred to motions that have been passed that were supported at our congress back in 2022 by the FDA trade union, the evidence that's given by Unite, and a lot of the work that we as TUC Cymru have been doing with other unions like GMB, for example, who, of course, have had their own review, and other trade unions. I would say, at the moment, that the Senedd does not rank well at all. You have a long way to go. I'm not saying that it's impossible. I think you will get there. The fact that you have this committee and that you've been prepared to invite me so come and speak so openly and frankly and to listen to the evidence means that I'm confident that we will get there. There are lots of opportunities. I think there's a lot of goodwill from the Senedd to do the right thing. Ultimately, this is going to be about getting uncomfortable and understanding that if you introduce—. I think that there is nervousness about change, and if change comes, then there will be some individuals who might be questioning what that means for them. But ultimately, look, this is about having dignity and respect in the workplace, it's about people feeling that they are going to be safe when they go into the workplace.

I think that there is a role here, as well, for the future generations commissioner too. That's something that is definitely worth considering. Talking about the future generations commissioner, they've been very much leading the way. They have paid time off for victims of sexual harassment. That is something that they offer for their staff, and they have a policy on that and that was then later adopted by the workforce partnership council as well. I'm not sure how many employers in the public sector currently offer that, but, like I say, this policy was supported at the time, so I think that's definitely something that is worth considering.

And then I think there's also, just to quickly mention, a role here for the Office for National Statistics. So, in terms of the ONS, at the moment there is a real, clear lack of data for Wales on the number of sexual harassment claims that are being made. So, I think that there is a role here for the numbers to be logged and to be reported, similar to other crimes and acts of sexual violence. I think there is definitely a role there for the ONS, and that's something that the committee should maybe think about.

But, look, I don't think, at the moment, that the Senedd ranks up there. The evidence very much, clearly, points to that, but I just commend the committee for being brave and taking that step. That is the main thing here, and people will see that. So, what happens next, in terms of the recommendations of the committee, I think everyone's eyes are going to be very much focused on that.

Very good. May I just quickly take one more minute, Hannah, if that's okay? Thank you, Chair. Obviously, separate to this is the Welsh Government and the relationship between Ministers and civil servants, and those within the Welsh Government. What would your views be on their standing? You've mentioned that the Senedd could do better, but, in terms of the Welsh Government, because of the separate civil service code, et cetera, where would you put the Welsh Government?

At the moment, I would say that the Welsh Government have been doing a lot of work on this issue, and they have taken on board—. We do have a social partnership approach in the Welsh Government, so the trade unions work—and always have had that Welsh way of working—very collaboratively with the Welsh Government. That is not to say that things are perfect and that is not to say that things don’t happen and that there isn’t room for improvement—there always is—but I would say that, at the moment, in terms of the way that cases are handled, they have definitely improved.

Thank you, Chair.

[Inaudible.]—did start a few minutes late, so, Mick, quickly.

Just very quickly, there, of course, are a number of categories and you referred just now to the very significant unit of the Welsh Government, and, of course, civil servants, but, of course, in terms of staff within the Senedd, that is essentially a matter between the trade unions and the Senedd in terms of ensuring those. So, the area we’re mainly concerned with, obviously, is the standards of conduct—that is the rules and regulations and the standards and processes around that with regard to Senedd Members. At the moment, you’ve sort of blurred the lines between those a little bit, but, presumably, you’re in agreement that these are separate categories that need to have their own established processes because they are different in many ways. And, of course, with the general staff, there are processes there and you will, no doubt, have been involved in those on behalf of the trade union movement with regard to engagement with the Senedd. Am I right in sort of making distinctions?

Yes. They are separate and, ultimately, it is important that any new processes and policies that are introduced are negotiated through the recognised trade union. And I think that the evidence that has been given by Unite very much and clearly indicates the separation there.

Thanks. Just another question—I've got one final question, if I may. It goes back to that point that the Senedd is a workplace but it is a very different dynamic, because we've talked about the role of power when it comes to sexual harassment, whether that's in society or within the workplace. And, of course, with the Senedd being a very political workplace, we know from experience that that kind of amplifies the power imbalance. So, with the caveat if we were to get to a point of recommendations and implementation to strengthen the system that we have in the Senedd and the independence of it, the expertise involved and to give that confidence in the system, bearing in mind the point you made about the ongoing review, would the TUC perhaps have a view, then, that if that was the case, that was all in place, should a complaint of this nature come against a Senedd Member, then it should always go through the Senedd system and it shouldn’t go through the party system? I think, from experience, we see that’s where the water gets muddied, perhaps, potentially. So, would the Wales TUC have a view on that?

The Wales TUC doesn’t have a view on that, but my personal view I can share. I would say that, ultimately, the party system is a separate system and you are there as a Senedd Member and so it should be the Senedd system.

I should have added as another caveat that we recognise that the Wales TUC is a non-affiliated body.

Yes.

Diolch. I think that's covered most of our questions, but I'm sure there'll be some things, perhaps, to follow up in writing from the points that you've raised in evidence today. But we're grateful for your time. And just to say, as you'll be familiar with, having given evidence to committees before, a note of the transcript will be provided as soon as possible so that you can check that for factual accuracy. Diolch yn fawr for your time today.