Standards of Conduct Committee

Croeso nôl, pawb.

Welcome back to this morning's session of the Standards of Conduct Committee. We're on item 3 on the agenda as part of our inquiry into dignity and respect. And I'm really pleased to welcome Hannah Stevens, who is the chief executive of Elect Her, to the session this morning. Hannah, I think there's an opportunity, first of all, before we ask any specific questions, perhaps for you to introduce yourself and the work of Elect Her, and perhaps any initial observations you might have on this work that the committee is conducting at the moment. Diolch.

Thank you for the opportunity to join you today. My name is Hannah Stevens, and I'm the chief executive of Elect Her. And just to slightly frame our contribution and introduce our work, I just wanted to share that our work is really about women, and in our core work we motivate, we support and we equip women to stand for elected office in all spheres of government across Britain, right from the very beginning of their journey, getting politically active, through getting involved, standing for something and then, more recently, as we're supporting women once they are elected into local, national and devolved governments. But, really, there are so many barriers that are available to women through that democratic engagement, and we've been listening to the voices of women navigating that journey for the past eight years. And we hear their experience not only as those women start, as I said, from the very beginning but all the way through to getting elected, and that collective knowledge has really combined the voices of thousands of women, of individual experiences. So, we've accidentally become the experts in the lived experience of women engaging in our politics today, which has led us to a whole mapping exercise, where we've been mapping the barriers to women's political participation—we've identified 55 of them—and then the levers that we can all pull to help change that and increase their representation of our democratic spaces. Today, we're talking about the Senedd. So, we have a lot of perspective of different women's experiences and I hope I can share some of that today. I guess the key point that I really wanted to make is that we really do welcome this discussion, and we really do want to advocate for a standalone independent expertly advised process outside of what we have at the moment, but I'm happy to go into more details with your questions.

Great. Thanks and thanks for that overview of the work, the important work, that Elect Her does. You touched on, obviously, the barriers that perhaps you support women to overcome to stand and then support them once they are in elected positions. Do you have any specific feedback perhaps from the people, the women, that you work with on any barriers that perhaps may be specific to the institutions themselves, in terms of being worried about the culture? Obviously, we're specifically looking at the Senedd in this instance, but if there are any things we can learn from elsewhere we're keen to hear about those as well.

Absolutely. There really is a huge amount of learnings that we can take institutionally within the Senedd, and I think it's fantastic you're starting this conversation at this point. It is the cultural challenges that women face within the environment, and I think I have to really emphasise that sometimes those cultural interactions are tiny, but when you are in engaging in them 40 or 50 times a day, it is exhausting. I think we really have found and heard that the codes of conduct and processes that are in place in written agreements around behaviour don't reflect and represent the intimacies of women's everyday experiences, and there's a lot more work that can be done in both the language of the codes of conduct, the reporting systems when people feel like they haven't been honoured, and I think that also reflects into training and inductions. There are different spaces along the professional experience that Members have where we can continue to embed and examine how the culture is upheld.

Now, we've got clear parameters within the responsibility of the Llywydd within the Senedd and engagement and discussion in that space, but outside of that space, when we're walking the corridors of the Senedd or engaging with Members, that's a different environment. I think there needs to be more done in examining the codes of conduct in everyday interactions, but really, really emphasising that with induction at the beginning, and then repeated induction and training throughout the life of a parliamentarian.

You touched on, Hannah, the importance of induction and training there, and we've heard previous evidence around the importance of mandatory training, as people are first elected or re-elected, then at certain periods throughout their parliamentary term, but I think most of that focus, minus some of the evidence we've had so far, is around training on expectations of behaviour from people and understanding the forms that inappropriate behaviour may take. I think you're offering a different angle on it, too, there, if I've understood you correctly, around actually supporting training for people to better understand the systems that are in place, and what that means for them.

Yes, absolutely. It is both about the process and the systems and ensuring that people have clear understanding of how those processes and systems work for them, but it is also, I think, around shared agreement and understanding of language and the nuance of language—what does the word 'respect' mean? We hear a lot from women that people utilise political debate, and define unacceptable behaviour as political debate, when, really, it shouldn't be cloaked as that, and a deeper understanding of what isn't acceptable. Just because we're working in politics, it doesn't mean that we can utilise stronger language that wouldn't be acceptable in any other workplace. So, it does feel like there's a lot more to be done, like, how do we determine respect? And how do we determine respect within a political environment, where, of course, you might have politically, ideologically different ideas, but you can still engage in conversation and utilise language that honours respect across that divide?

And a key detail that we heard about that induction and training is that for a lot of people who are newly elected, there's a huge amount of information that they receive at the very beginning of their role, and often, actually, to take on board, having been newly elected, and the excitement, the thrill and the wildness of the experience, to also take on all of the processes and procedures, all of the behaviours, all of the understanding about your legislative role even in a year would be quite a lot to ask. It's often a really, really condensed period of time at the beginning, and then it's left—induction complete, tick, let's move on. So, a lot of women are telling us that, actually, a continuous return to a deeper understanding once you've been able to settle into the role and understand things, to return to some of that training or that induction material. So, whether that's making that available in a different way, or continuing to offer professional development opportunities for Members throughout the life of the Parliament, so that they can continue to come back to that. Obviously, we've been listening to women specifically, because that's our interest, and that's our group, but, absolutely, it's not on the women or the other under-represented demographics to lead on that. We need everybody to be fully engaging in defining respect and how we behave.

Sorry, can I just check if everybody can hear me okay, because I had that unhelpful message when it comes across your screen that said my internet is unstable? I'm glad I'm still with you. But, Peredur, if I do disappear, if can I hand over the Chair to you at that point, just in case.

It's really helpful, Hannah. One of the things I can picture when you talk about that political environment in which we operate, by its very nature, this is a political institution, and politicians work within it, and then people work and support those politicians. We've taken a degree of evidence both in the sessions, but also in the previous consultation, where there was strong support for establishing an independent process for dealing with cases of this nature in terms of bullying or harassment. And I wonder whether that's something that you would agree with as an organisation, and any recommendation you might have for what form that might take.

And then the other question I'd like to ask while I have the opportunity is: should we manage to recommend, and then it is implemented, a strengthened system within the Senedd of support of this nature, and a process to go through, would you as an organisation—? I know you're non-partisan as an organisation; you support women across the political spectrum. One of the things we have been asking other witnesses is whether, if we have that system in place here, and if a complaint is then made about a Member of the Senedd, it should go through this system, and it should take primacy over, perhaps, a party political system, to create that clarity, and actually to perhaps take away concerns about whether things could have that kind of magnified effect of a political party setting as well.

Absolutely. We would really advocate for a stand-alone, independent, expertly advised process for poor behaviour, which is adequately resourced and provides confidence to victims that they will be supported. There is a lack of confidence in the standards commissioner to undertake any investigations, and so a real full review we would highly recommend of how sexual harassment or bullying can be tackled, carried out by an independent and external person.

We need to remove the political party element to this. That's always going to be a risk in any of the conversations that we're having around accountability. Any concerns that we have are that accountability processes can be taken advantage of for political party nature, and therefore by that very nature, they don't stand up. So, the full independence, needing to be separated from the political parties, is absolutely vital if we're to improve the processes and really have them working, and for people to feel confident in engaging with them.

Mick, you wanted to come in.

Yes, just a couple of things. Of course, one of the big changes in the whole cultural environment is social media, and that relates back to—. We'll be shortly going into an election in May, but of course people are the candidates, there are all the people that are involved in that, and of course the social media and the post process. And of course we've seen some pretty appalling examples recently, misogynistic stuff and threatening stuff on social media, particularly aimed at women candidates who, as far as I can see, and Members, are disproportionately targeted. Where do you see that within the framework as to—? Because it broadens it out into quite a broader area, doesn't it? I don't know what your thoughts are there, perhaps, Hannah.

Thanks for that question. Obviously, social media has played an enormous part in the shifting political landscape, and it's an enormous problem. In this particular conversation in regard to the behaviour of Senedd Members and Senedd staff, I think clear articulation, again, as to what is and isn't acceptable, is the fundamental level that we find. Again, when you get into the nuance of this conversation, it is that different people find different wording acceptable and not. And there has to be some guidance and clarity around what is and isn't acceptable for Members in terms of their social media conduct.

I know for a lot of people the social media conversation has taken a huge toll, I think, on the number of people being willing to step forward into political spaces, and that's hugely problematic. But I also think it's quite easy to just blame that and forget all of the in-life interactions. We just completed a piece of research with women Members of the Scottish Parliament. So, I've gone into deeper conversation with women there, and I can only guess that there would be some similarity, which is, increasingly, how to protect yourself online. We are getting better at that. The parties and the institutions are improving the reporting mechanisms, so that individuals don't feel so alone when they are, unfortunately, the victims of attack. But it has been an easy focus that that is the problem, and it has taken away any energy that there was in terms of really examining the everyday interactions that people have within the building, and where respect lies across the house and across the genders as well.

So, I think social media is a huge problem. There really does need to be guidance, but I don't think that's a huge challenge that we're seeing, which is Members on Members targeting each other online. The online situation is much more a bigger thing of just a huge amount of the public being able to have their say. I think what we're looking at here are more daily interactions with people in their workplace, so that they can feel safe coming to work and doing the really important job that you all do.

Thank you.

Thanks, Mick. Any other questions? I'll go to Peredur.

Hi, Hannah. Thank you for coming in. Just to explore a little bit further what you're saying there about those daily interactions and language. Something you did mention earlier was defining unacceptable behaviour and political debate, and that aspect of hiding behind a political debate in order to use language that you wouldn't necessarily use in everyday life. Is that specifically in the Chamber or is that in political discourse? Because, obviously, the Chamber is under the Presiding Officer, not within the remit of this committee. That sort of aspect, could you talk around that a little bit?

Of course. I think perhaps that might be a more general piece. We're working with women across local government as well, and that's so many chambers across Britain. So, I think there are some challenges with chairs not upholding that. I would not say that necessarily about the Llywydd and their responsibility within the Senedd specifically, but we just have to understand that it's still an incredibly male-dominated environment. Every conversation is—. Simply because there are more men at the table, men are dominating the conversation. Of course, many of you are incredibly respectful. I'm not saying that the disrespect comes with that dominance, but the dominant culture within spaces has a huge impact, and I think there's a lot of the intersectional challenges that are faced that people might not understand are disrespectful in everyday daily interactions. So, I guess it's that.

It's quite hard for me to be really specific with specific wording, but it's definitely what we're hearing from people, that women have to come in and put a thick coat on to protect themselves from all of the small pieces that come at them each day. So, we focus often, in process and system, around large acts of abuse. I guess what I'm trying to bring into the conversation is that a lot of the focus is on bullying or sexual harassment of these kind of quite substantive natures, but there is a lot more of the quieter discomfort that comes from under-represented groups engaging in these spaces, where there is a subtle perpetual discomfort with women taking senior leadership roles. Ethnic minority men would fall into that as well.

So, it's just the toxic culture that the working environment presents and a need to examine how we can challenge that, and how we can determine what respect and positive culture really looks at without just focusing on one or two documentations that we want to get the language right. Actually, how do you embed that across the whole institution and in all of the daily interactions that the staff and the Members are engaging in?

And does bystander training then have an aspect within that to help some of that work, where it's beholden on us then, if we hear it or see it, that we don't allow it to happen and call it out?

Absolutely that, and I think that's a key part of the induction that I mentioned and a key part of the ongoing professional development work. I think there are lots of different—. The training and how to do your job is one particular thing, but how to engage, how to be leaders of Wales and act in accordance with our commitments to equality for all is a really important part of that. For some people, that needs a bit more training. So, I think you're right to identify bystander training, allyship, actually how we can all step up to ensure that the daily interactions we're having and what we're witnessing, and what is unacceptable and dressed up as political dialogue, I think some deeper understanding around that could be enormously beneficial.

And finally from me, Chair, if I can, with the work that you've done with the Scottish Government and Scottish Parliament, will you be producing a report on that? What's the outcome of that going to be and in what sort of timescale will we be able to see some of that, because it might help us to understand? Are you able to talk a little bit more about that, knowing a little bit about the Senedd and our systems, some of the things that we should be looking at now rather than waiting for any report?

I wanted to ask because I looked into it, but I wanted to make sure I was correct. The Senedd hasn't completed a full gender-sensitive audit, has it, over all of the operations and processes across the estate?

Not to my knowledge. No, I don't think so.

So, I think that would be—you know, it sits slightly separately, in some sense, to this conversation, but I don't think it does and that's the problem. We would highly recommend a full gender-sensitive audit across the Senedd. The Scottish Parliament did one two years ago, and I think it really put a lot of language to some of these—. Again, these more subtle references that I'm making here, an audit really pulls that out. They got into the level of detail about how much speaking time different genders got presented themselves in committee and in the Chamber, as well as going into further detail around training and codes of conduct. So, that would be a huge recommendation that we would have; I think it's a really beneficial process to go through. The Scottish Parliament have also recently published advice on how to do a gender-sensitive audit. So, that's a big piece that we would really, really advocate for within the Senedd. The research that we've done is published; I'm happy to share it with the committee today, or, if it is available to download on our website, I can even pop in a link. Is that allowed? Shall I pop in a link, or just send it on to someone?

If you send it to Meriel, to the clerks, then that'd be great, I think. Sorry, Chair.

So, I think you would find it helpful. It's quite specific about that environment, but I think lots of the issues that I'm mentioning here around where the opportunities for institutions to utilise their power to disrupt older cultural environments—. I think there's a lot in there I'd love to share with the Senedd as part of this conversation.

Diolch yn fawr. Thank you. Thank you very much.

Thanks. And just to point out, Hannah, one of our Commissioners, Joyce Watson, who's also chair of the women's caucus, I'm led to believe is undertaking a gender-sensitive audit. So, we can follow that up too for you, if you wish, after this too. Tom, did you have anything you want to touch on?

You mentioned a lot, I think, in your evidence, about training and raising awareness about how Members, and other staff, I guess, that work in the Senedd, can be more conscious and aware of some of the things that you talk about. I suppose one of the things we have seen more recently is something like training itself being used in a political way—the refusal to go on to training where perhaps you perceive it may have a different world-view to your own. And I think that the only way that this form of training will succeed, almost, is that it is depoliticised, in a sense. So, how do you marry those two things by saying, 'Actually, no, this is really important', but also, 'It's not necessarily—'? I'm trying to be diplomatic in the means of my question, but that it is an apolitical thing that everybody needs to buy into.

Yes, tricky. And I'm not sure whether I'm a total expert in being able to respond to that. But this is a place of work. You all go to work as Members, but this very strange dynamic where you have very strange employment rights, and not the same as the rest of the population, for anybody in elected office—. And, increasingly, as time goes on, that's presenting more and more challenges to how we can ensure that you're all safe and thriving at work, as we are seeking for any employee in the country. So, I think there is a framing around ensuring that you are getting the correct professional development and that the Senedd is taking a responsibility in terms of how to upskill people once they are elected. I'm very much for diversity, equity and inclusion, if it's not obvious, and it's a shame that we're getting to a point where that could be considered political, because, really, it's about numbers and it's about representation and it's about who people are. But I guess you can review how you contextualise some of these things that I'm talking about within that training, but I don't think it's impossible at all. I think we shouldn't be scared to really affirm that ensuring that you have a safe place of work isn't a political thing and isn't to be hijacked as some sort of political ideology. It's called ensuring your work team is safe at work. So, yes, I'm not a pro in that area, but I just don't think that training and induction could and should be considered to be political, and I don't think the fear of that should stop the Senedd making developments in how it upskills its staff—or not staff, Members, once you're elected.

Thank you.

Thanks, Tom. So, obviously, the work of this committee that we're doing at the moment is very much to look at those structures and the processes that are in place and how we could potentially strengthen them and the recommendations around it, but we talked about training and things, and they could be recommendations for the Commission itself, for the Senedd, to do, or for the individual political parties as well as part of that. Is there anything, perhaps, this morning that you think you haven't had an opportunity to share yet and we haven't touched on that could further improve the confidence of candidates to come forward to stand for the Senedd, but also to support them like you do once they are elected and are in that institution?

I think there's a real opportunity now. With next year's elections coming up, and potentially a new cohort of Members joining in just under a year's time, there's a real opportunity now to review how you welcome all of those new Members. I think, in some sense, the candidates are already in train; we're not going to encourage somebody today who hasn't been politically active to become a candidate for next year. We all know that that's not quite how it works. So, at this stage, I don't think we can influence the candidates, but more widely we are starting to see that the discomfort and the challenges that all Members face—I will say 'all Members', but we understand that women are facing and people of colour are facing increasing challenges—all of that is putting people off getting involved in politics.

I am an eternal optimist. Our organisation is founded in joy and positivity and community, so it's uncomfortable for me to sit here and talk about all of the negative things; I don't want to dwell on that, I want to focus on the solutions and the fantastic strength of our democracy when we're all able to come together, but I'm concerned that right now we're at peak women in all the different spheres of government in Britain. I think this is it. I think we're going to see fewer women elected in next year's Senedd election; I'm concerned it's going to be the same in the Scottish Parliament and in the council elections that we've got coming up over the next few years. And that is because the discourse around our politics and the disrespect that women face is getting louder and it's getting harder and it is starting to put people off.

Now, it's incredibly difficult to really, really document that and get the clear evidence that proves that that's the case. All I can say is, from continuing to listen to hundreds and hundreds of women over the past few years, that that is the message that we're starting to receive. So, I really want people to understand how important this is. These aren't just nice to haves; we have to strengthen our political spaces so that people have more faith in them and that we are getting fantastic people stepping forward to take on the role. At the moment, those fantastic people are going, 'No, thanks. I cannot be bothered. I'll get on with making great change in my community by running my business and volunteering at the school once a week', rather than choosing to step into these roles. So, I think this is a really big, big challenge.

And as I briefly mentioned at the beginning, we have mapped out all of the different reasons why we don't have enough women in political office, and they are divided by—. There's a whole suite of changes that the political parties can make; there's a whole suite of changes that we need in wider society: gender pay gap, caring et cetera. But, within the political institutions, there's a lot that can be done there and it's primarily focused around the kind of lack of HR processes and what processes you can put in place to replace them, given the fact that Members aren't employees.

Thanks, Hannah. That's really interesting. Some of the evidence we had from representatives, the chiefs of the staff of the political parties, probably took an opposite view about some aspects of training, so that's really interesting to hear your view on it, and if there's anything you can share with the committee around the work you've done, and the rationale behind that, I think it would be really helpful for the work we're doing, because, as you said, at face value, this inquiry might look quite dry—we're looking at processes—but, as you say, those processes are fundamental to enhancing confidence, not just in politics, but in politicians themselves. And I just want to touch on—. I don't know if other Members have got any final questions, but, before I do check, you made the point too about the kind of—I was going to say 'odd', but the unusual—situation that a Member finds themselves in, because we're elected, we're not employed, so therefore it operates in a different environment. We also have our own teams, small teams of support staff, who, technically, we are the employers of, but then a lot of that work is overseen by Members' business support. So, there has been further evidence we've had from different people about actually how that could be enhanced. But, like you say, fundamentally, we're a workplace as well, so taking on board that the work you do is focused fundamentally on encouraging and supporting more women to stand, and then supporting them once they have taken that step—. So, we also change the culture by having a more diverse range of people literally in the room or within the institution. So, the work we're doing is about the code of conduct that applies as it applies to Members, but we want to create that environment and that culture in the Senedd where people want to come and work there for those Members, or for the Commission, the civil service as well. So, is there anything you've done in terms of perhaps—or anything on that reflection, notwithstanding your work is focused on getting women to stand for elected office, about what we can be doing or recommendations we can be making that more broadly gives women that confidence to want to work in a political environment, whether they're elected or whether they are employed within that environment?

We haven't done much with employees, but I am conscious of the burden of being an employer, which is another element of it. Stepping even further away from this, it seems to me that the role of Members is enormous, and I would question whether a normal human being can do it, whilst you're running your team, doing your legislative work and representing your constituency, and doing all the committee work. There's a huge amount that Members have to take on, and the reality of that, they're articulating the reality of that and reflecting on the role of the Members, and I understand all of the different changes that are going on in the Senedd, and the increase of Members. I hope that that will see a release of the huge amount of work that is on Members' plates, but I think improving institutions and improving the cultural environment there—so many people do step up, having been staffers, so that really is a pipeline that we know exists, that people work for Members and then get increasingly engaged and put themselves forward. So, definitely, people are seeing whether that is a real cultural improvement that's happening within the workplace. So, I think I don't have anything else to add other than what I've already discussed, really, in terms of there's a lot more to be done to ensure that the wider culture is as inclusive as the Senedd really wants it to be, and additional support for the employment element of Members being employers for their staffers, I think that's another level of work that could be taken away a little bit more, with increased support from Members' services.

[Inaudible.]—how would you envisage that additional support? What would that look like?

Well, the recruitment, I don't know enough about inside the Senedd and about how it operates currently, but we were having conversations in the House of Commons about the improvement required over there, so I don't want to say anything that is untrue about the Senedd, but, certainly, the burden of recruitment and then training and holding your staff to a certain account, again is a whole other layer of work that you have to do that might not necessarily be what you would imagine when you're stepping forward into the role. Actually, you're there to make change and to legislate for your country and to represent your constituents, but actually managing a small business and the challenges that come with that is often another level that takes away time. So, I don't know enough about the systems already in place in order to suggest how to change them.

Thank you. Do any other Members have any final questions or anything they want to follow up on? Okay, great. Well, thanks, Hannah, for joining us this morning. Your contribution has been really helpful to our work on this, and a copy of the transcript will be provided as soon as possible so you can check it for factual accuracy. But, on those points you're raising, some of the information you can share, if you are able to do that, and then I'm sure the team will follow that up with you as well. But thank you very much for your contribution today. Diolch.

Thanks for having me. Diolch yn fawr.

I'll now propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(ii) and (vi) to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content to agree the motion? Great. In which case, we will now continue in private.