Croeso cynnes i bawb i gyfarfod y Pwyllgor Newid Hinsawdd, yr Amgylchedd a Seilwaith. Rŷn ni wedi derbyn ymddiheuriadau gan Janet Finch-Saunders, ac mi fydd Sam Rowlands yn dirprwyo ar ei rhan hi. Felly, croeso i Sam. Mi fydd Rhys ab Owen hefyd yn ymuno â ni yn y cyfarfod. Mae Rhys, wrth gwrs, wedi cyflwyno gwelliannau i'r Bil fydd yn cael ei ystyried y bore yma, ac mi fydd e'n cymryd rhan yn y ddadl ar y grwpiau perthnasol.
Mae hwn yn gyfarfod, wrth gwrs, sy'n cael ei gynnal mewn fformat hybrid, ac mi fydd eitemau cyhoeddus y cyfarfod yma yn cael eu darlledu yn fyw ar Senedd.tv, ac mi fydd Cofnod y Trafodion yn cael ei gyhoeddi fel arfer. Mae'n gyfarfod dwyieithog hefyd, wrth gwrs, felly mi fydd cyfieithu ar y pryd o'r Gymraeg i'r Saesneg ar gael. Os bydd y larwm tân yn canu, yna mi ddylai Aelodau a thystion adael yr ystafell drwy'r allanfeydd tân a dilyn y cyfarwyddiadau gan y tywyswyr a'r staff. Dŷn ni ddim yn disgwyl ymarfer heddiw. A gaf i ofyn i Aelodau sicrhau bod unrhyw ddyfeisiau symudol sydd gennych chi wedi'u distewi? A hefyd gaf i ofyn a oes gan unrhyw un fuddiannau i'w datgan? Nac oes. Diolch yn fawr.
Felly, ymlaen â ni at gynnal trafodion Cyfnod 2 Bil Gwasanaethau Bysiau (Cymru). Dyw Ken Skates, Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros Drafnidiaeth a Gogledd Cymru, a'r Aelod sy'n gyfrifol am y Bil, ddim yn gallu bod yn bresennol ar gyfer y trafodion heddiw, ond rŷn ni'n croesawu ac yn diolch i Julie James, y Cwnsler Cyffredinol a’r Gweinidog Cyflawni, am ymuno â ni ar ei ran, i siarad am welliannau'r Ysgrifennydd Cabinet. Felly, croeso cynnes i chi, Gwnsler Cyffredinol.
Jest er mwyn i bawb ddeall, ac er mwyn y cofnod hefyd, fel Cadeirydd, wrth gwrs, mi fyddaf i yn cynnig gwelliannau sy'n cael eu cyflwyno gan yr Ysgrifennydd Cabinet a gan Rhys ab Owen, gan nad ydyn nhw'n aelodau o'r pwyllgor, ac mi fydd Delyth Jewell yn cynnig ac yn siarad am welliannau a gyflwynwyd gan Peredur Owen Griffiths. Felly, jest er mwyn i ni i gyd fod yn glir ynglŷn â hynny.
We'll move on to the first group of amendments. The first group relates to objectives and reporting requirements. The lead amendment in this group is amendment 23, and I call on Sam Rowlands to move and speak to the lead amendment and the other amendments in the group.
Bore da, and thank you, Chair. Thank you for the opportunity to be part of your committee here this morning. Before I speak to the specific amendments within this group, I just want to begin by setting out some of my broader concerns about the impact of this Bill in its current form. In my view, there's a real risk that this legislation could centralise far too much control of our bus network in the hands of the Welsh Government, without sufficient safeguards in place. I've seen and we've seen what happens when centralisation is not backed by delivery and I fear this could become yet another costly exercise for Welsh taxpayers without improving outcomes on the ground for those passengers that need that.
The Bill as drafted appears heavily focused on urban areas, with little thought given to the challenges faced by our rural communities. It fails to address one of the biggest barriers to reliable bus services, and that's congestion, and instead of levelling the playing field, it risks tipping the balance in favour of large national operators at the expense of smaller local companies. I and I'm sure others on this committee have also spoken to those small and medium-sized bus operators from across Wales, and their message is clear: they're worried with this legislation. They still don't know how this Bill will affect them and many feel shut out of the process. These are the independent businesses that have kept communities connected for years, and their survival shouldn't be put at risk by rushed or unclear legislation. That's why I've brought forward a number of amendments to improve this Bill, to protect those rural areas, to give those smaller operators a fair shot and to bring greater clarity to all involved. I also feel there are missed opportunities in this legislation to remove barriers faced by disabled people, in particular around access, but also in terms of the soft and hard infrastructure that far too often is a barrier for disabled people.
Turning to the amendments in this group, amendment 23 would place a duty on Welsh Ministers to have regard to the objective of increasing the availability of bus services, with a specific focus on tackling poor availability in rural areas. Many of our communities have been left behind for too long, and this must be addressed with amendments such as amendment 23.
Amendment 24 introduces a seventh statutory objective to ensure Welsh Ministers promote investment in the infrastructure used for local bus services, particularly where it improves accessibility. Good services require good infrastructure, and this must be recognised in law. I believe the current legislation is missing an opportunity to deal with that infrastructure.
Amendment 25 is closely linked, as it also proposes a further objective, this time to improve the availability, reliability, safety and accessibility of services for the purpose of meeting learner travel needs. I'm aware, of course, that there are further amendments in later groups that seek to address this as well, but this is a glaring omission in the current Bill, and one that stakeholders, including the children's commissioner, have flagged as a priority.
Finally, amendment 42 would require Welsh Ministers, when reporting on progress towards these objectives, to consult with all relevant stakeholders and bodies. This is about ensuring transparency and accountability, and making sure those most affected by this legislation have a meaningful voice in shaping how it is implemented.
I'm supportive of amendments 55, 56, 57 and 73, tabled by Peredur Owen Griffiths, as they seek to address similar issues raised by my amendments. Diolch, Chair.
Diolch, Gadeirydd. Hoffwn i ddechrau trwy ddatgan fy nghefnogaeth i a chefnogaeth fy mhlaid i egwyddorion craidd y Bil hwn. Serch hynny, mae yna sawl maes lle dydyn ni ddim yn meddwl bod y Bil yn mynd digon pell. Felly, mae nifer o'n gwelliannau ni'n ceisio llenwi'r gaps dŷn ni'n eu gweld yn y ddeddfwriaeth fel mae wedi'i ddrafftio.
Buses form an intrinsic part of the social fabric and the economic fabric of our nation, so it's absolutely crucial that we get this right. We've heard this as a committee a number of times, and in the Senedd generally, that for one in every five people in Wales who don't have access to a car, buses are completely essential for getting to work, for visiting family and friends, and accessing essential services. So, the success or failure of this Bill will have a direct and tangible effect on people's daily lives.
The amendments in this group—and as the Cadeirydd has made clear, they are tabled in the name of my colleague Peredur Owen Griffiths, and it's my pleasure to move these amendments and to speak to them on his behalf—align broadly with those amendments submitted by Sam, namely to place additional objectives on the Minister to help address those current gaps, as we seem them, in the Bill.
Stakeholders have raised, we think, valid concerns about how franchising will accommodate learner travel. Transport to school should not be a postcode lottery. That's why we propose including an objective requiring Ministers to have regard to learner travel needs as defined in section 2 of the Learner Travel (Wales) Measure 2008. Through this amendment, we aim to ensure that network development, route planning and franchising explicitly take account of learner establishments—that is schools and colleges—and so guaranteeing that children and young people across Wales can travel safely to school and to college without being left at the mercy of inconsistent service provision.
I also share the concerns raised by Sam about accessibility in some other amendments, and the Bill as it currently stands, we think, fails to adequately address the needs of disabled people, many of whom rely on buses as their only mode of transport. Our proposed amendment would require Ministers in exercising their functions under the Act to have regard to people with specific needs or disabilities as defined in section 6(1) of the Equality Act 2010. Furthermore, we believe the Bill should go further in addressing affordability. We propose including an explicit objective for Ministers to work towards a cost-effective transport system that offers value for money to users. This would ensure Welsh Ministers consider efficiency and affordability in every decision relating to bus services.
Finally, our last amendment in this group relates to reliability. The Bill currently lacks a clear plan to tackle congestion, which is a major barrier to reliable services. Our proposed amendment would require the Minister to report on measures to address congestion, which we see as an essential step in improving reliability. Only by tackling congestion head on can we increase bus use and deliver a transport system that truly works for communities across Wales. Diolch yn fawr.
Thank you. I want to speak to group 1. I won't be supporting the amendments, because the Bill is actually offering greater opportunity for both traveller and operator. As things stand at the moment, the Welsh Government pays small and medium-sized enterprises to fill in the gaps from the larger operators, who have already creamed off the most profitable, and that's the whole ethos of the Bill. It will become a fairer system, and it will do exactly the opposite, as we've heard from Sam Rowlands this morning. In terms of the accessibility, I agree that it's really important, but I think that that particular amendment is too restrictive. And whilst it's important for those individuals, other individuals aren't included in that description.
Diolch, Chair. I delivered a petition before I was a Member of the Senedd calling for buses for people, not profit. I really welcome this Bill coming forward. At the time when we had the petition gathering signatures, buses were targeting urban areas, where there were the more profitable fares, and, at the same time, cutting rural bus services. And it was so upsetting seeing residents losing their vital service. Regulating the network and delivering a network for everybody, which will cover urban and rural areas, making sure that people are not left behind in rural areas, or are being disadvantaged, is the way forward.
Regular members of this committee will know that we have discussed SMEs and their concerns. They are vital to bus services in Wales, because they also deliver school transport, and we need to make sure that they're also part of the public bus service, so that they can also keep delivering school transport for us. They are related. We were reassured that there would be smaller packages, maybe, of one or two contracts. I hope there might be a unit to help them as well, with Transport for Wales, to help SMEs when they're applying for contracts, and maybe help with policies, et cetera. But there was a big discussion here. I feel reassured, but it's something we need to watch.
Access for people who are disabled has been discussed as well. The active travel funding, which will be devolved to corporate joint committees, under the local transport grants, will be there to help address access going forward. It won't just be for cycle routes; it will be about improving access to bus stops and other areas of public transport. The committee has asked a lot of questions during the process, addressing the concerns that have been raised. So, I will support this going through.
I think this is a crucial bit of legislation, and I thoroughly support it. I think it will improve the lives of people in Wales. I don't support this particular group of amendments, for similar reasons to what my colleagues have already said. But, in particular, the amendments related to learner travel needs don't accept that travel needs are the responsibility of local authorities, and any amendment should include that. So, I don't support these particular amendments.
Diolch, Cadeirydd. Can I start my contribution to today's proceedings by thanking everyone for their contributions, and, in particular, thank Sam Rowlands, Rhys—who I know we haven't heard from yet—and Peredur, as represented by Delyth, for their amendments?
It’s really clear that a lot of hard work has gone into the amendments and that people have really thought carefully about the aims of the Bill and the importance of improving the delivery of local bus services in Wales. I’m also, Cadeirydd, grateful to the committee for the welcome today. I do know that the Cabinet Secretary would have preferred to be here to discuss with the committee this Bill, which is very important to him indeed, but I’m very happy to be to be able to be here on his behalf. I think that the committee’s aware that I have been involved with the development of this legislation since prior to the publication of the White Paper back in 2022, so I do know the value of what Welsh Government can do in this space.
So, I want to start by saying that, whilst I’m sympathetic to the intention behind amendment 23, I do urge Members not to accept it. I am very sensitive that rural areas in particular have suffered from the decline in the number of services under the deregulated system, but this is also true in some of the most vulnerable peri-urban and urban areas in Wales. I do not think it is appropriate or desirable to differentiate in this context, because the Welsh Ministers will have to have regard to the objectives under section 4 when exercising all of their functions under the legislation. I’m confident that centralised co-ordination of the network in consultation with local authorities, alongside our intention to utilise flexible services and the use of hail and ride services, will lead to service delivery that will maximise benefits for rural communities.
With regard to amendment 24, I cannot accept the insertion of this additional objective into the Bill because I am of the view that investment in roads and other bus service infrastructure falls outside the scope of the Bill. I can understand the temptation to include reference to it in relation to improving accessibility, but I don’t think the amendment is appropriate, I’m afraid. In particular, I don’t think that this amendment would work in relation to the context of having to have regard to the objectives in exercising all functions under the Bill. Local authorities will retain bus infrastructure responsibilities. This is one of the key reasons why the Bill requires close collaboration between the Welsh Ministers and local authorities in the development of the network plan.
Similarly, I would urge Members not to accept amendments 25 and 55, because I am of the view that consideration of learner travel needs, as defined in the Learner Travel (Wales) Measure 2008, falls outside the scope of this Bill. However, we are content to consider an additional objective that would reflect our commitment to ensuring people have access to key public services, including education and healthcare. So, Chair, I hope that the Members will be content to work with us on developing an objective with this in mind. In the meantime, I can reassure the committee that learner travel needs are and will continue to be considered in the development of the Welsh bus network plan, in consultation with local authorities. This is already taking place in south-west Wales.
It was a point that—. Diolch yn fawr iawn, Counsel General. I wanted to raise with you what you had said about amendment 57, and I recognise utterly the, perhaps, unintended consequence of not including those other types of passengers who might be made vulnerable other than those with disabilities. I recognise that fully and I wanted to reassure committee members that this was, I think, an unintended consequence of having to find a way of bringing something into scope, but I utterly accept that, and that was not in any way the intention of the amendment. But diolch yn fawr iawn; thank you. Diolch, Gadeirydd.
Yes, thank you, Chair. And thank you to all Members for their comments and contributions for this grouping. Just to address a few of the points that were raised: first of all from Delyth Jewell, highlining the fact that one in five people don’t have access to a car in Wales—that’s why getting this right is important, and I appreciate the Counsel General’s consideration of these amendments in that spirit. We are all here to try and get the best outcomes for the people of Wales, and I accept that Delyth Jewell, in moving amendments for Peredur Owen Griffiths, is seeking to achieve many of the same objectives that I too have put forward as amendments.
It's disappointing, perhaps, to hear from other colleagues in the committee about their lack of support for this group of amendments, but I'm not necessarily surprised. We heard from Carolyn Thomas about the reassurances that she has that small and medium-sized enterprises will not be cut out of this legislation. I would argue that the greatest assurance that someone can have is when something is in legislation. While words from Ministers are warm, I would suggest that to have that real reassurance that SMEs will not be cut out of this legislation, then you make sure that they are included within it.
Just to address a couple of points that the Counsel General raised: it was pleasing to hear that there’s going to be consideration of a further objective around the access to those key public services. So, I will certainly be willing to have those conversations, when appropriate—I’m sure that others around the table would be too—about how a further objective could be inserted within the legislation in that area.
And then the Counsel General also mentioned that there’s existing legislation with regard to the Equality Act. I guess the reason why a specific objective has been put in here as an amendment in that area, from me and by Peredur Owen Griffiths, is because we’re hearing from stakeholders that adherence to this is just not working well in real life. And that’s why an objective in this space is needed, and I’ll continue to move the amendments as they are.
There we are. Okay, diolch yn fawr. So, we'll move to a vote, then. The question is that amendment 23 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection, so we will move to a vote. So, those in favour of amendment 23, please show. Three. Those against. Three. So, as there is a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative, that is against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii). Therefore, amendment 23 is not agreed.
The question, therefore, is that amendment 24 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection, so we will move to a vote. All those in favour of amendment 24, please show. Three. All those against. Three. So, there is a tied vote again and I use my casting vote as Chair in the negative, that is against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii). So, amendment 24 is not agreed.
Amendment 25, then. The question is that amendment 25 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection, so we'll go to a vote. Those in favour, please show. Three. Those against. Three. So, again, there's a tie, and I therefore use my casting vote in the negative, in accordance with Standing Orders. So, amendment 25 is not agreed.
We move to amendment 55. The question is that amendment 55 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There's an objection, so we'll have a vote. Those in favour of amendment 55, please show. Three in favour. Those against. Three against. So, it's a tied vote. In accordance with Standing Orders, I therefore cast my vote in the negative, meaning that amendment 55 is not agreed.
The question is that amendment 56 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Objection, so we'll move to a vote. Those in favour of amendment 56, please show. Three in favour. Those against. Three against. Again, it's tied, so I use my casting vote in the negative, according to Standing Orders, meaning that amendment 56 is not agreed.
The question is that amendment 57 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There's an objection, so all those in favour of amendment 57, please show. Three. Those against. Three. Again, it's tied, so I use my casting vote in the negative against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Orders. So, amendment 57 is not agreed.
So, we move to the next group of amendments. The second group relates to Welsh Ministers' core duties and policy statement. The lead amendment in this group is amendment 26, and I call on Sam Rowlands to move and speak to the lead amendment and other amendments in the group. Sam.
Thank you, Chair. My amendments in this group reflect a recognition of the need for clear and honest communication with the public about the scope and timeline of any bus reform. It must be ensured that Transport for Wales has the capacity and expertise to successfully deliver these changes. Furthermore, it is vital that the Welsh Government, Transport for Wales and local authorities work closely together to overcome infrastructure challenges, such as congestion and poor bus-stop facilities, to provide a reliable, accessible transport network.
Speaking to amendment 26, this strengthens the role of accessibility in network planning. It would guide Welsh Ministers to explicitly factor in accessibility requirements when determining the designated local bus services within the Welsh bus network plan. This would ensure that physical and practical access for older people, disabled passengers and those in underserved areas is not an afterthought, but a core consideration in shaping the network.
Amendment 27 adds a new sixth core duty on Welsh Ministers. It would require them to lay a formal statement before the Senedd within six months of Royal Assent, setting out the state of preparations for implementing the designated local bus services. This, for me, is about Parliamentary oversight, transparency and momentum. It ensures that the Government does not delay unduly, and that Members of the Senedd and the public are kept informed of what to expect and when.
Amendment 42 will insert a further duty requiring Welsh Ministers to lay a statement of planned expenditure before the Senedd. This is essential. If we are serious about reform, we must be honest about the cost also. This amendment ensures that we have visibility on how public money is being allocated to secure local bus services, allowing for scrutiny, ensuring value for money and reinforcing trust with the public and operators alike.
Together these amendments aim to provide a more grounded, deliverable and accountable framework for this legislation. Diolch.
Diolch, Sam. Do we have any other Members who wish to speak on this group? No, there we are. Okay, I'll call on the Counsel General, therefore, to speak to this group.
Diolch, Cadeirydd. I appreciate the intent behind amendment 26, but I do urge Members not to accept it. It's our view that accepting the amendment would not have the effect intended. The accessibility of local bus services is crucial to ensuring that people, in particular the most vulnerable in our communities, are willing and able to use them.
Including accessible transport as a core duty in relation to securing local bus services would impose, in my view, an almost impossible burden of delivery on the Welsh Ministers, leading to fewer services and a less inclusive network. It would also expose the Government to a significant number of legal challenges, as it would be extremely difficult to determine the legal level of 'accessibility' that would be required, as well as which groups of people's services would have to be 'accessible' for.
As the Cabinet Secretary stated in his response to recommendation 14 of the committee's report, the purpose of section 5(1)(a) is to determine the type of services that are required rather than the standard of the service. The standard of the service should be established in the delivery, including as part of the contracts and permits where accessibility requirements can be targeted through obligations and conditions, including around vehicle standards and driver training. The Bill already includes a duty on Welsh Ministers to have regard to the objective of improving the accessibility of local bus services in exercising their functions under the Bill.
Similarly, I foresee issues should the committee agree to include amendment 27 in the Bill. The time-sensitive nature of the wording may make the provision unworkable, particularly in the context of the upcoming Senedd election in May, because, subject to the Bill receiving Royal Assent in January, the requirement to lay the statement would fall in June. We support the principle behind the amendment, however, and I believe that the most appropriate action would be to seek an oral statement in Plenary at some point early in the new Senedd term and at any point subsequently where an update would be appropriate to ensure that the Senedd is kept up to date on implementation. In terms of organisational capacity, the Welsh Government has full confidence in TfW’s capability to implement the goals of this Bill and deliver a positive local bus network for the people of Wales.
Moving on to amendment 43, Chair, I urge the committee not to accept this amendment. The Welsh Government will be required to publish details of planned expenditure on local bus services, as is the case under the existing system, through the budget process. This is already subject to committee and Senedd scrutiny. We do not consider that an additional statement would add value to budget scrutiny, and it would amount to duplication for both the Government and the Senedd. With regard to publishing a policy statement in relation to local authority investment in local bus services, we also do not consider this necessary. Our policy position is clear. We have already made a commitment to the local authorities, including at this committee, that all additional funding provided by a local authority will be spent within that authority.
Thank you, Chair, and thank you to the Counsel General for her comments on these. I'm clearly disappointed that she feels not able to encourage others to support these amendments.
On the first issue around the inclusion of standards or expectations around the access for this legislation, I would politely disagree; I think it would strengthen the legislation to have those standards and expectations included at this stage and not just as guidance. I think it would be a strong signal, in particular, to those people who feel as though they are meeting barriers far too often when facing these important bus services.
On amendment 27, I would accept the Counsel General's point that the timing may be difficult with a Senedd election looming, and maybe a consideration—. Whilst she suggested an oral statement, I would still want to pursue an amendment in this space, and perhaps we'll come back with a further amendment with a nine-month or 12-month expectation instead to deal with that. So, I'll deal with that when it comes to the amendments we're moving in a few moments, Chair. Thank you.
There we are. Diolch yn fawr iawn. Okay. So, the question is that amendment 26 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There's an objection, so I'll ask for a vote. All those in favour of amendment 26, please show. Three. And against. Three. There we are. So, it's a tied vote and I use my casting vote against the amendment in accordance with Standing Orders, meaning that amendment 26 is not agreed.
And that brings us to the next group of amendments, group 3, which relates to the Welsh bus network plan. The lead amendment in this group is amendment 58 and I call on Delyth Jewell to move and speak to the lead amendment and the other amendments in the group. Delyth.
Diolch, Cadeirydd. Rwy'n siarad yn arbennig i ac yn symud gwelliannau 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64 a 65, sydd, fel dŷch chi wedi dweud, wedi'u gosod yn enw Peredur Owen Griffiths, ond rwy'n siarad iddyn nhw ac yn eu symud nhw ar ei ran.
Pwrpas ein gwelliannau yn y grŵp hwn ydy'r angen i ariannu'r Bil hwn yn ddigonol. Buaswn i hefyd eisiau ategu bod cefnogaeth—. Rwy'n tueddu cytuno â thuedd rai o'r gwelliannau eraill yn y grŵp hwn, hefyd.
The delivery of the bus network plan will require substantial investment. We've heard clearly from a number of stakeholders that the current funding in place for bus services is simply not adequate, even in the short term, to deliver the transformation that is envisaged by this Bill—again, a transformation that is something that, in principle, of course, I support. At present, there is no mention of how the aims of the Bill will be financed. This was acknowledged in the Finance Committee's report. We fully recognise that implementation will demand significant resource, and, while a fully franchised network is not expected until 2030, there remains no clarity on what funding will be available to support services in the interim period.
Now, in response to a written question on this point, the Cabinet Secretary had confirmed that the 2025-26 budget includes elements of preparation for bus reform and that the restated 2026-27 draft budget will set out more detailed spending plans. I must stress, however, that this response was not reassuring. Even without knowing the full contents of the draft Bill at the time, of course, it's clear we can't afford to risk underfunding such a major reform. There are legitimate questions that have to be asked about the wisdom of proposing ambitious legislation without a clear financial strategy within the Welsh Government's budget. That is why our amendments in this group on funding delivery and financial assessment are so important. Their purpose is to ensure financial transparency and accountability and to give local authorities and communities the confidence that the plans that are set out in this Bill are both credible and deliverable.
The remainder of our amendments in this group seek to address further gaps in the preparation of the bus network plan, particularly in relation to bus users. Our proposals will assure the role of local authorities in planning learner travel and to ensure the interests of disabled people are considered at every stage. The aim is to guarantee that services are inclusive, equitable and responsive to those who rely on them most. The spirit of them very much would be all those bus users who would be made vulnerable in any situation. Specifically, we propose that Ministers must have regard to the functions of local authorities under the Learner Travel (Wales) Measure 2008, and that they must also recognise the needs of persons with disabilities as defined in section 6(1) of the Equality Act 2010. By embedding these considerations into the Bill, we can help ensure that Wales develops a fully inclusive and sustainable bus network that serves every community fairly.
I would just say in closing, in consideration of what the Counsel General has said in relation to amendments in the previous group with regard to perhaps being too narrowly focused on the definitions of disability, I would welcome any suggestions that might be made about how this could be made even more inclusive, as that would be very much the spirit in which they're intended. Diolch yn fawr.
Diolch, Chair. First, I'd like to state that I'm supportive of all the amendments tabled by Peredur Owen Griffiths—I was going to name them all then, Chair, but I will avoid that—as I feel as though they seek to address similar issues with this Bill as my own amendments.
In speaking to my amendments, I would like to first of all speak on the group that relates to learner travel. I am surprised that a Bill designed to deliver a national bus network could fail to properly account for how young people get to school and college. Learner transport, as we know, isn't just a fringe issue; it's essential for access to education, for family finances, for social mobility. As the committee heard in evidence, the current Bill as drafted fails to address this. The Children's Commissioner for Wales, the WLGA and many local authorities have raised the alarm on this issue. That's why amendment 28 inserts a requirement for Welsh Ministers to have regard to learner travel needs when preparing the draft of the Welsh bus network plan. This ensures learners are not forgotten during strategic planning, something that should have been in the Bill, in my view, from the start. Similarly, amendment 31 requires that, when the Welsh Ministers review or revise the network plan, they also consider how those revisions may impact learner travel across the country. This reflects a basic principle: as the bus network evolves, so too must our attention to those who depend on it most.
Amendments 30 and 33 both insert provisions to ensure that, when Welsh Ministers are considering who to consult, both at the draft and revised stages of the network plan, they must give specific regard to the groups whose needs are under-represented in local bus discussions. These might include people with disabilities, carers, rural communities, young people, and, yes, learners too. If we want a truly inclusive public transport system, then we must be intentional about whose voices are heard.
In a similar spirit, amendments 29 and 32 ensure that, where a local transport authority in England may be affected, particularly in border communities, Welsh Ministers must consult the relevant local authority. That is just common sense to me. Bus routes don't stop at the border, and neither should our responsibilities.
And finally, Chair, amendment 34 adds a new section requiring statutory guidance to be issued to all bodies and stakeholders affected by the network plan—guidance that helps people understand their rights, duties and opportunities under this legislation. A plan is only as good as its implementation, and guidance ensures clarity, accountability and shared understanding across the system.
I believe these amendments that I've laid are practical and rooted in this committee's own recommendations. They help ensure that public money is spent wisely and that learner travel isn't sidelined. I urge Members from across the room to support these amendments in that light. Diolch.
Yes, I remember, at the start of this Bill going through, my concerns that the expertise was with the local authorities. As we've gone through, and I've also met with Transport for Wales, that expertise has grown within Transport for Wales. There's been good collaboration and good communication with the local authorities. So, I know that they are delivering and working together on this.
Learner travel and school transport are inextricably tied with public bus transport. Many school users use public transport. But to incorporate learner travel as part of this would be just too huge. When we visited Manchester, we saw that it's not part of what they are delivering at the moment. But it's got to be fluid. I don't think you can legislate for it. So, I think it would be outside of this remit.
Going forward, funding will be an issue. We've got to make sure public transport is well funded. This is why I always call for money for public services. It's really, really important. But this Bill is getting the network in place, the pipework in place, as we call it, and then we need to make sure, going forward—any Government, any Senedd, going forward needs to make sure—that the funding is there afterwards.
Diolch, Cadeirydd. If you don't mind, I'm going to take the liberty of joining up some of the responses to the amendments in this group, as some of them are very similar in their theme and intention. I strongly urge Members to reject amendments 58 and 64. As drafted, these amendments require the Welsh Ministers to seek the views of local authorities as to how much money the Welsh Ministers need to spend to deliver the bus network. I'm very much of the view that the Welsh Ministers do not need legislation to seek local authorities’ views on the funding necessary to secure local bus services. Any Welsh Government would, of course, consult and collaborate with local authorities in the development, and any revisions, of the plan, but I do not think an amendment such as this is necessary, because they, effectively, duplicate the consultation provisions we've already included under Part 2 of the Bill. So, I ask the committee to reject those particular amendments.
I'm also unable to recommend that Members accept amendments 28 and 31, as the duty to consider learner travel needs to remain the responsibility of local authorities, and amending this duty is, in my view, outside the scope of the Bill. However, I would like to reassure the committee that learner travel can and will be considered as the Welsh bus network plan is developed, working closely with local authorities. Members will be able to see that this is already taking place in south-west Wales, which is where it's being trialled. Local authorities remain best placed to make decisions on learner travel needs in their communities. The provisions under Part 2 of the Bill requiring the Welsh Ministers to seek the view of local authorities in the development and revision of the plan have been included in order to ensure that consideration is given to learner travel, as well as other matters retained by local authorities, and, obviously, we'll work closely with them to take full advantage of the opportunities the Bill provides. The Cabinet Secretary has already committed to issuing a policy statement showing how learner travel can be supported under the new system, following recommendation 4 of this committee’s Stage 1 report.
I'm happy to accept amendments 59 and 62. Unlike amendments 28 and 31, these amendments recognise that, under the new system, learner travel will remain the responsibility of local authorities, and it is for them to take stock of the needs in their area. As I said, local authorities remain best placed to make decisions on learner travel needs in their communities, and these amendments acknowledge their role in this complex policy area. I hope these amendments will reassure members of the committee and wider stakeholders that we want learner travel to integrate successfully with the local bus network, leading to better outcomes, as many people have said just now, for both local authorities, as well as learners and their families.
Diolch, Cadeirydd, a diolch i bawb sydd wedi cymryd rhan yn y ddadl yma. Soniodd Sam am yr angen i gymryd trafnidiaeth ysgol i mewn i ystyriaeth yma hefyd. Fel roedd Sam yn dweud, nid fringe issue ydy hyn. Mae'r comisiynydd plant hefyd wedi codi pryderon am hyn, a'r gap sydd yn bodoli. Nid minor omission ydy hyn. Gyda llaw, buaswn i'n gefnogol, fel roeddwn i'n dweud, o'r gwelliannau yn enw Sam sydd yn y grŵp yma hefyd.
As Carolyn had acknowledged, school transport should be, and is, linked indelibly with other modes of transport. I appreciate that that is a principle that we all would agree on, but we're trying to work out how best to address it. The fact remains, though, that it is a bizarre situation where we have legislation going ahead here on the future of the bus network and for this area, which is so significant, where concerns have been raised so recently, for that to be omitted, it does seem—. I am yet to understand the reason why this cannot be included.
Rwy'n siomedig efallai na fydd y Llywodraeth yn cefnogi pob un o'r gwelliannau sydd wedi eu gosod yn y grŵp yma, ac rwy'n ddiolchgar, er hyn, am yr hyn mae'r Cwnsler Cyffredinol wedi'i ddweud.
I would argue that local authorities are perhaps not—. There are many areas where I know that they are not coping particularly well with the area of learner travel. I am appreciative of what the Counsel General said about indicating that you would be happy to accept two of our amendments in this group—59 and 62.
On amendments 60 and 65, I still believe that there should be something on the face of the Bill on this issue, but I hope that it might be looked at again in advance of Stage 3. And on amendments 61 and 63, I know I would speak here for Peredur as well that we'd be very happy to work with the Government on finding a new way of advancing the principle behind these amendments. Therefore, I'd be happy to withdraw amendments 61 and 62 on that understanding. I would appreciate any guidance from the clerking team if there are consequential amendments to those that I should later on not move. Diolch yn fawr iawn.
Diolch, Delyth. The question is that amendment 58 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection. We move to a vote. The question is that amendment 58 be agreed to. Those in favour, please show. Three. Those against. Three. It's a tied vote, so I use my casting vote against the amendment in accordance with Standing Orders, meaning that amendment 58 is not agreed.
The question is that amendment 28 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] The question is that amendment 28 be agreed. Those in favour, please show. Three Members. Those against. Three. It's a tied vote, so I use my vote against the amendment in accordance with Standing Orders, meaning that amendment 28 is not agreed.
Amendment 60 has been moved. The question is that amendment 60 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection, so we move to a vote. Those in favour of amendment 60, please show. Three. Those against. Three. It's tied. So, in accordance with Standing Orders, I use my vote in the negative, that is against the amendment. So, amendment 60 is not agreed.
The question is that amendment 30 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection, so we'll vote on amendment 30. Those in favour, please show. Three. Those against. Three. It's tied. So, in accordance with Standing Orders, I vote against the amendment, meaning that amendment 30 is not agreed.
The question is that amendment 31 is agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection, so we will move to a vote on amendment 31. Those in favour, please show. Three. Those against. Three. It's tied. So, I use my casting vote in the negative against the amendment in accordance with Standing Orders, meaning that amendment 31 is not agreed.
The question is that amendment 64 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There's an objection, so we move to a vote on amendment 64. All those in favour, please show. Three in favour. And against. Three against. It's a tied vote, so I use my casting vote in accordance with Standing Orders against amendment 64, meaning that it is not agreed.
The question is that amendment 65 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There's an objection. We will vote on amendment 65. All of those in favour, please show. Three. And against. Three. It's a tied vote, so I use my casting vote in the negative, against amendment 65, in accordance with Standing Orders, meaning that it therefore is not agreed.
The question is that amendment 33 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There's an objection. We will vote on amendment 33. All those in favour, please show. Three. And against. Three. It's a tied vote, so I use my casting vote against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Orders, and, therefore, amendment 33 is not agreed.
Yes, it's moved. The question is that amendment 34 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There's an objection. We will vote on amendment 34. All those in favour. Three. And against. Three. It's tied, so, in accordance with Standing Orders, I use my vote in the negative, against amendment 34, meaning that it is not agreed.
I move amendment 1 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary and call on the Counsel General to speak to the lead amendment and the other amendments in the group.
Thank you, Chair. This group of amendments concerns the provisions relating to local bus service contracts. I begin with the first amendment in this group, which is, very neatly, amendment 1. The Bill states that local bus service contracts can only be awarded to operators who hold a community bus permit or a public service vehicle operator’s licence. The Bill requires that, where a local bus service contract is entered into in respect of a community bus service, the contract must require that the service is provided as a community bus service and that each vehicle used in providing the service is used under and in accordance with a community bus permit. I do ask Members to support amendment 1 as it is a minor amendment to the language in section 9, to reflect the fact that operators may hold more than one community bus permit.
Amendment 2 ensures that an operator with a suspended PSV operator’s licence will not qualify as 'a person holding a PSV operator’s licence' for the purposes of section 9(3)(b), and will therefore not be able to enter into a local bus service contract. If an operator’s licence has been suspended, it is because they have done something in contravention of the licence. It's important that we ensure that we are only awarding contracts to operators who demonstrate they can offer safe, responsible transport in Wales. This is why I encourage Members to vote to accept this amendment.
I recommend that Members do not accept amendment 35. We don’t think the amendment is necessary in view of existing procurement legislation that would apply to the Welsh Ministers in respect of supporting small and medium-sized enterprises in procurement. The Procurement Act 2023, which will apply to contracts issued under this Bill, requires consideration of whether barriers to participation for SMEs can be removed or reduced when procurement is carried out. That Act also requires that contracting authorities must consider whether services could be supplied under more than one contract and whether contracts could be awarded by reference to lots. Amendment 35 appears to cover very similar ground to this and would likely result in unnecessary duplication of existing statutory provision.
Moving on to amendment 66, we have been clear that we want to see existing publicly owned bus companies continue to play an important role in the delivery of bus services, just as we see an ongoing role for SMEs, larger operators, and, indeed, community transport providers. I do understand the intention behind this amendment. However, I do not think it will deliver the protections it seeks to secure for the two existing municipal bus companies. It is also important to point out that, if this amendment was accepted, further provisions in the Bill would likely be required to achieve the aim behind the amendment, which would be very difficult to achieve within the time we have available. Therefore, I ask the committee to reject the amendment. However, in order to reassure Members, TfW, on behalf of Welsh Ministers, have been engaging with the relevant local authorities about options regarding an ongoing role for Cardiff Bus and Newport Transport in the delivery of bus services. We are very happy to speak to the Member about our plans in this respect, but, in the meantime, I would urge the committee to reject the amendment.
Turning to amendments 67 and 68, I do not believe these amendments are required because they are covered by matters already included in the list in subsection 10(2)(h) 'vehicles' and (p) 'facilities and amenities to be made available to any person'. Moreover, the list included under section 10(2) is not exhaustive. Therefore, there is scope for matters that are not expressly listed in that subsection to be included in the regulations made under section 10(2). Adding more detail to the list, in particular when they are already covered, may reduce the effect of including the wording 'among others', and, therefore, limit the Welsh Ministers' ability to include pertinent matters as needed in the regulations.
Similarly, I do not believe amendment 36, which inserts the wording 'payment methods' into section 10(2)(k), is required because the matter is already covered by the wording in that paragraph, i.e.,
'ticketing, fares, and how entitlement to travel may be evidenced'.
Whilst I understand the intention behind the amendment, I can assure you that officials are working with TfW to ensure that both cash and electronic methods of payment will be accepted onboard Welsh local bus services.
Then, Chair, moving on to amendment 49, which seeks to amend section 10(2)(l) by adding that education and training should include education and training on disability, I fully support the idea behind this amendment but feel it is entirely unnecessary. This matter is already covered by the wording in paragraph (l) 'education and training'. As I’ve said previously, the list is not exhaustive and is a guide to what may be included in the regulations.
I would also draw your attention to sections 35 and 36 of the UK Government’s recent Bus Services (No. 2) Bill, which apply to bus services in Wales and place requirements on operators to ensure that their drivers and other personnel dealing directly with passengers receive disability training. Those clauses also impose requirements to keep records or publish statistics to monitor compliance. With these in mind, I would urge Members to reject this amendment.
And then, amendment 50 seeks to include in the list under subsection 10(2) a stipulation around providing information in accessible formats. The Welsh Ministers will ultimately be responsible for providing information to the public under section 27. The regulations made under this provision will set out how this is to be done, including the format the information should be made available in. The intention is that those regulations will specify that information, similar to that sought by the amendment, must be published in an accessible format, including in hard copy and electronic format. I can say more on this when we get to group 11 on information and data. Again, whilst I entirely support the intent behind this amendment, this is already covered in Part 4 of the Bill and I therefore advise committee to reject this amendment.
Amendment 51 seeks to add in 'accessibility standards' to the list of provisions that may be specified in regulations under section 10 about terms that must be included in local bus service contracts. Again, I understand the aim behind this amendment, but I urge the committee not to vote for this amendment. The list in section 10(2) of the Bill already enables provision to be included in regulations about compliance with statutory requirements. The Public Service Vehicles Accessibility Regulations 2000, which apply to certain operators, require vehicles to meet general and wheelchair accessibility standards, for example, around wheelchair spaces, ramps and priority seating, and make provision about the display of markings, signs, route numbers and destinations. So, although I do believe that local bus service operators should address accessibility standards, I am happy to say that the Bill already provides for this and I therefore recommend that this amendment is rejected. Diolch.
Diolch, Chair. Speaking to my amendments in this group, I'd like to start by saying that if this legislation is to deliver a modern, integrated bus network for Wales, we must ensure that procurement and contract award mechanisms are fit for purpose, inclusive and do not inadvertently shut out small operators or those with innovative models. The changes I propose are not burdensome; they are corrective and preventative. For me, the risk is clear, Chair: unless the Bill explicitly requires Ministers and procurement bodies to consider and mitigate barriers facing SMEs, we may see a procurement regime that favours large incumbents, limits innovation, reduces competition and therefore reduces service quality, value for money and responsiveness to local needs. My amendment 35, which I can see already has the support of Peredur Owen Griffiths, will require Welsh Ministers to regard barriers facing SMEs when competing for contracts, as well as whether those barriers can be mitigated, before they begin inviting the submission of tenders for the awarding of those local bus service contracts.
Amendment 36 includes methods of payment as one of the matters that a provision made through regulations may relate to. I heard the Minister's comment on this, but I still believe it's an important amendment, because it would give Ministers the capability to regulate how payments work, not just what services are delivered. This could include diversifying payment models, fixed payments, variable payments, advanced payments, performance bonuses, et cetera, making it more feasible for smaller operators to manage risk and to manage their cash flow demands. We need a framework that gives smaller local operators a real chance, the ones who know our communities, who've been running vital routes for years, often on tight margins. They should be able to compete fairly and continue providing the services people rely on every day.
In regard to the other amendments in this group, I'm supportive of many of those, including, of course, amendments 1 and 2, tabled by Ken Skates, which are technical amendments. I'm also pleased to see the amendments laid by Rhys ab Owen, which seem like sensible amendments. And at risk of breaking the status quo in terms of the votes so far, Chair, I do have some concern, perhaps, around amendments 67 and 68 tabled by Peredur Owen Griffiths, which, for me, don't seem to fit within the scope of the legislation. Also, I struggle to see how you can legislate for those amendments. So, I'd be open to hear from the Member moving those amendments, to have a better explanation for those. Diolch, Chair.
Diolch, Gadeirydd. Dwi'n symud gwelliannau 66, 67 a 68, a buaswn i'n hoffi datgan ein cefnogaeth ni i'r gwelliannau eraill yn y grŵp—i bob un o'r gwelliannau eraill yn y grŵp.
Small and medium-sized enterprises provide excellent transport services—fundamentally necessary transport services—across Wales. Often they lack the central administrative capacity needed to bid for contracts effectively. Ministers must, therefore, consider how to reduce these barriers, for example, through transitional support, to ensure SMEs can compete on a level playing field. That's why we are supporting Sam Rowlands's amendments on this matter. We don't want to see small and medium-sized enterprises or community transport operators being unfairly excluded from the bidding process, because maintaining a diverse, locally rooted transport sector is essential. These providers often deliver vital services, particularly in our rural and hard-to-reach communities, but also within urban areas like the Valleys.
We also support Rhys ab Owen's amendment, which would introduce a duty for all staff to receive disability awareness training. This is an important step, we believe, towards ensuring every passenger can travel safely, independently and with dignity. The purpose of this amendment, I believe, is to remove barriers and promote genuine equality of access across our public transport network. Furthermore, while the Bill includes an objective for Ministers to work towards achieving an integrated transport system, we believe this commitment should be made explicit on the face of the Bill. Integrating transport must include provisions for cycling infrastructure, such as space for bikes on buses and secure cycle storage at interchanges. Our amendment seeks to ensure buses and transport hubs support active travel actively, to encourage a shift towards more sustainable modes of transport. This would help align our bus services with Wales's broader climate and public health objectives, and we believe that they would create environmentally responsible transport systems that work for everyone. Diolch.
Diolch yn fawr, Gadeirydd. Rwy'n symud gwelliannau 49, 50 a 51. Rwy'n ddiolchgar am gefnogaeth Delyth a Peredur, a Sam Rowlands o'r grŵp Ceidwadol. Mae hi'n drueni nad yw'r Llywodraeth yn eu cefnogi.
The aim of these amendments is to make accessibility and disability awareness clearer and more embedded in this Bill. It comes from a personal story. When I was on Cardiff Bus, a blind person came onto the bus and sat down and asked the person next to her to tell her where to get off. The person didn't know where this stop was, and then it became some sort of a free-for-all on the bus around where this stop is. Julie will know—we've lived in Cardiff for many, many years and yet we don't know every street, do we? So, we shouldn't be reliant on well-intentioned members of the public. There should be training for bus drivers to deal with situations like this, or certainly there should be audio announcements on every bus. We have them on trains; why haven't we got them on buses? I'm pleased to hear from the Counsel General that amendment 50 with regard to accessibility formats will be dealt with in regs, but I cannot see why it cannot be dealt with on the face of the Bill. The same is true about amendment 49. It will make it clearer to have it on the face of the Bill here. So, those are my comments. And just in anticipation, Cadeirydd, my group 5 amendments mirror those in group 4, so I won't say anything on group 5 in addition to what I've already said with regard to group 4.
I actually, in principle, but not with my vote, I'm afraid, today, support amendments 35 and 66. I think it's critically important that procurement arrangements don't work against SMEs. They're very often the lifeblood—well, they are the lifeblood—of delivering transport where others don't. I've already alluded to that, right at the start. I do want further assurances from both the Government and Transport for Wales about how they're going to assist those small operators to take part in that procurement process and be able to bid on equal terms to provide that transport, going forward. As it's written, I won't be supporting it, but I do look forward to hearing further from the Government and for them to bring back some assurances to this committee that they have considered this.
In terms of the amendments that have been put forward by Rhys ab Owen, again, I understand the concerns fully. There is a job. You ask, 'Why haven't we got these notices not just in terms of audio, but visible for people who are hard of hearing?' My husband catches buses, and the visible is what he needs. It's critically important, and, of course, it will be investment into that happening, but it is critical and the Government has addressed some of those issues. And training, of course, has been addressed previously by the Minister. But, again, I'm absolutely with you in terms of what you're saying, but won't be supporting it.
Diolch. Yes, I'm in sympathy with what Rhys has said about the education and training for staff because I've had experiences as well of constituents who have been on the bus in Cardiff and have had some distressing experiences, basically, where it did not appear that the driver had had disability training. But I do accept what the Counsel General has said, that it is already covered. But I absolutely feel that we've got to do a lot more work in that area, and it's really important that we do make sure that everybody does have this training, but I accept it's already there.
Thank you. At our cross-party group on transport, we were looking at encouraging people with concessionary passes, the over-60s, to come back to using public transport, and a friendly bus driver was considered as really important. Audio announcements have also been raised regarding disabilities, and I think, even though it might not be on the face of the Bill, it's something that we need to keep considering, going forward.
Regarding SMEs, everyone counts and, perhaps when the contracts are put together, there might need to be a social element, going forward, to ensure that SMEs remain.
Also, I know, in the past, from my experience when I was a cabinet member in charge of transport, we had to sometimes offer support to SMEs to ensure that they were compliant with the traffic commissioner, and as a local authority, because they don't always have that expertise there to become compliant with policies and current legislation, et cetera. So, that's a really, really important consideration, going forward. So, I think we all support the concerns raised, but we'll not be voting with what's been put forward.
Diolch, Cadeirydd. I think it's worth pointing out to the committee, and perhaps we can do a note on this as well, that much of what's being said we agree with, but we're pointing out that it's already included in previous Acts. So, I think, in my opening remarks, I said quite a bit about the fact that the procurement Act covers quite a lot of the things around SMEs—inclusion and packaging of contracts, and so on, which the Government will obviously be subject to when implementing the bus Bill. I hesitate, Chair, to go into too much statutory interpretation in this session, but it's always very important to make sure that you're not limiting a previous Act by well intentionally including things in a subsequent Act that then limits the previous Act, because statutory interpretation is cumulative, so to speak.
I also pointed out that the UK bus Bill has a series of things in it around training for disability, and so on. I urge Members to bear in mind how this new bus Bill will work. I take the point that Delyth, Julie and others made in the committee around the training that's available now, but, sometimes, we have constituents who have experienced drivers who don't appear to have had the training. I've had a similar experience myself. So, I just want to remind everyone that, obviously, once we've done this, we have more control over the contracts with the bus companies, and therefore we have much more control over the drivers getting the right training and implementing it in the right way. So, we will have more control over what's already in place. And incentives in the contracts will depend partially on customer satisfaction. So, we'll have a good feedback loop for incentives in the contract. So, my view would be that it's unnecessary because it's already covered and could limit what goes in the regulations. So, I wanted Members to bear that in mind.
I wanted to say as well, Chair—with many thanks to the Members for considering the amendments—that I can hear that everyone is of a similar mind as to what matters should be considered for inclusion, in particular the importance of ensuring safe and inclusive transport. We're sort of arguing over the detail of how to do it, not what to do. I think it's important to remember that. So, I do urge Members to ensure that we are not inadvertently limiting how contracts might look in the future by adding, with all good intentions, unnecessary terminology into this Bill. Diolch.
I move amendment 2, in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. So, the question is that amendment 2 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No objections. Amendment 2 is agreed.
Yes, it's moved. The question is that amendment 35 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection. We'll move to a vote. All those in favour of amendment 35, please show. Three. And against. Three. So, it's a tied vote, and I use my casting vote in the negative against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Orders, meaning that amendment 35 is not agreed.
Yes, moved. The question is that amendment 66 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There's an objection, so we'll vote on amendment 66. Those in favour, please show. Three. And against. Three. It's tied, so I use my casting vote against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Orders. So, amendment 66 is not agreed.
Moved. The question is that amendment 67 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There's an objection. So, we will vote on amendment 67. Those in favour, please show. Two. And against. Four. So, that means that amendment 67 is not agreed.
It's moved. The question is that amendment 36 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] It's objected to, so we will move to a vote. Those in favour of amendment 36. Three. And against. Three. It's a tied vote, so I use my casting vote against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Orders. So, amendment 36 is not agreed.
I move amendment 49, in the name of Rhys ab Owen. The question is that amendment 49 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection and, therefore, a vote. Those in favour of amendment 49, please show. Three. And against. Three. It's a tied vote, so I use my casting vote against amendment 49, meaning that it is not agreed.
I move amendment 50, in the name of Rhys ab Owen. So, the question is that amendment 50 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] It's objected to, so we will have a vote on amendment 50. Those in favour, please show. Three. And against. Three. It's a tied vote, so I use my casting vote against amendment 50, meaning that amendment 50 is not agreed.
I move amendment 51, in the name of Rhys ab Owen. So, the question is that amendment 51 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There's an objection, so we will vote on amendment 51. Those in favour, please show. Three. And against. Three. It's a tied vote, so I use my casting vote against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Orders, meaning that amendment 51 is not agreed.
Amendment 68 is moved. So, the question is that amendment 68 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. All those in favour of amendment 68, please show. Two. Against. Four. That means amendment 68 is not agreed.
I move amendment 3, therefore, in the name of the Cabinet Secretary, and call on the Counsel General to speak to the lead amendment and the other amendments in this group.
Diolch, Cadeirydd. This group of amendments deals with various matters relating to local bus service permits under Part 2 of the Bill. Permitting local bus services is another means by which the Welsh Ministers will be able to secure bus services identified on the network plan. However, operators will also be able to apply for permits to deliver services that are not on the plan, if they see a viable opportunity. I want to open the discussion with amendment 3. Like amendment 2 in the previous group, this amendment ensures that an operator with a suspended PSV operator's licence will not qualify as a person holding a PSV operator's licence for the purposes of section 11(4)(b), and will therefore not be able to be granted a local bus service permit. As I noted earlier, if an operator's licence has been suspended, it's because they have done something in contravention of their licence. It's important that we ensure that permits are granted to operators who demonstrate they can offer safe, responsible transport in Wales, and that's why I encourage Members to vote to accept this amendment.
I do ask the committee not to support amendment 37. This is not an appropriate addition to the Bill, in my view, as it seeks to insert a provision for the Welsh Ministers to issue guidance to operators on the exercise of the Welsh Ministers' functions in relation to local bus service permits. As the Cabinet Secretary stated in his response to recommendation 24 in the committee's Stage 1 report, regulations under sections 13 and 14 will set out details relating to the application process and any further conditions that must be attached to local bus service permits. These will be subject to public consultation. In agreement with the recommendation, he also committed to publishing a guide setting out the process and fees associated with applying for local bus service permits and associated matters. This will enable us to work positively with operators to ensure the process is straightforward and dynamic, especially during the transition into the new model. I understand officials are already working with Transport for Wales to ensure this is done in good time before the first zone is rolled out in 2027. I think this is a sensible approach, which will have the same intended effect as the amendment.
I ask the Members to support amendment 4. Local bus service permits can be awarded to operators who hold a community bus permit or a PSV operator's licence. This minor amendment to the Bill, similar to amendment 1 in the previous group, amends the language in section 13(1)(b) of the Bill to recognise that a community bus operator may hold more than one community bus permit.
Turning now to amendments 69 and 70, these are very similar amendments to those included in the previous group, and, as such, my response is the same. I do not believe these amendments are required because they are already covered by matters included in the list in subsection 13(3)(h) 'vehicles' and (p) 'facilities and amenities to be made available to any person'. Moreover, the list included under section 13(3) is not exhaustive, therefore there is scope for matters that are not expressly listed in that subsection to be included in the regulations made under section 13(2). Adding more detail to the list, in particular when they are already covered, may reduce the effect of including the wording 'among others', and therefore limit the Welsh Ministers' ability to include pertinent matters, as needed, in the regulations.
Similarly, Chair, I do not believe amendment 38, which would include the wording 'payment methods' in section 13(3)(k), is required because the matter is already covered by the wording of the subsection 'ticketing, fares and how entitlement to travel may be evidenced'. As with the similar amendments, I urge Members to reject this amendment.
And as with amendment 49 in the previous group, I would urge Members not to support amendment 52, which seeks to amend section 13(3)(l) by adding that 'education and training' should include 'education and training on disability'. Again, I fully support this, but I think it's unnecessary. As I've said previously, this is covered by paragraph (l) and, in any event, the list is not exhaustive and is a guide to what may be included in regulations.
I would also draw your attention to sections 35 and 36 of the UK Government's recent Bus Services (No. 2) Bill, which I mentioned earlier. Amendment 53 is similar to amendment 50 in the previous group in that it seeks to include in the list under subsection 13(3) a provision around providing information in accessible formats. As with amendment 50 in group 4, while I entirely support the ideal behind this amendment, this is already covered in Part 4 of the Bill on the provision of information and data. As I mentioned in my response to amendment 50, it's our intention to include in regulations under section 27 a requirement around providing information in an accessible format. Therefore, I advise committee to reject this amendment.
Amendment 54 is similar to amendment 51 in the previous group. It seeks to add in 'accessibility standards' to a list of provisions that may be included in regulations on local bus service permits under subsection 13(3). And again, Chair, I understand entirely the aim behind this amendment, but I do urge the committee to vote to reject this amendment on the grounds already stated. The list under subsection 13(3)(n) already enables provision to be included in regulations relating to compliance with statutory requirements. These can include the statutory requirements that I brought to your attention in the previous group, for example the Public Service Vehicles Accessibility Regulations 2000. So, although I do agree entirely that local bus service operators should address accessibility standards, I am happy to say that the Bill already enables regulations to refer to existing legislation that already provides for this and advise, therefore, that this amendment is rejected.
The remaining eight amendments in this group are all Government amendments. They make technical and necessary changes to the Bill. Amendments 5-8 deal with how conditions attached to local bus service permits can be altered by the Welsh Ministers. The Bill allows the Welsh Ministers to grant local bus service permits and attach conditions to those permits. As we’ve already established, the Welsh Ministers also have the power to make regulations specifying mandatory conditions that must be included in permits. Amendments 5 and 6 allow the Welsh Ministers to remove conditions attached to a local bus service permit by giving notice to the permit holder. Amendment 6 is consequential to amendment 5, and amendments 7 and 8 relate to the Welsh Ministers' power to revise conditions and add new conditions to local bus service permits. New subsections (5), (6) and (7) enable the Welsh Ministers to vary the conditions attached to local bus service permits and add new conditions to local bus service permits, either by reaching agreement with permit holders or without such agreement if the change is required by regulations made under section 13(2) about conditions that must be attached to permits. And amendment 8 is consequential to amendment 7. These amendments have been made to ensure the Welsh Ministers are able to revise, add or remove non-mandatory conditions. Under section 13(4) as introduced, conditions could only be amended if the amendment was in consequence of a provision made in regulations under subsection (2). The Bill also unintentionally prohibited variation by agreement, but these amendments now allow for this, and I therefore ask the committee to vote in favour of these amendments.
And then, Chair, turning to amendment 9, that provides that a local bus service permit can be revoked or suspended where an operator no longer holds any community bus permits or where any community bus permit that the operator holds has been revoked whether or not the operator holds other community bus permits. Amendment 10 enables local bus service permits to be revoked or suspended where an operator does not hold a PSV operator’s licence or where a PSV operator’s licence has been suspended or revoked under the Public Passenger Vehicles Act 1981, regardless of whether the operator holds other PSV operator's licences. Amendments 9 and 10 are included to ensure that only responsible community bus permit holders and PSV licence holders can run local bus services in Wales. For the same reason, amendments 11 and 12 enable local bus service permits to be revoked or suspended where a condition has been attached to any PSV operator’s licence the operator holds, under section 26(1A) of the Transport Act 1985, whether or not the operator holds other PSV operator’s licences without conditions attached. And, Chair, as stated already, these Government amendments are technical and required, and I urge Members to vote in favour of them. Diolch.
Diolch, Chair. I'll speak to my amendments 37 and 38, which broadly seek to strengthen the role of local bus service permits under this Bill. Amendment 37 in the group extends section 11, regarding local bus service permits, to enable Welsh Ministers to issue statutory guidance to those who hold a community bus permit or a PSV operator's licence, regarding Welsh Ministers' actions concerning local bus service permits. The guidance may, amongst other things, address the criteria for granting a permit, applications for local bus service permits, service quality standards, the conditions attached to local bus service permits, the revocation and suspension of local bus service permits and appeals for the refusal of permit applications, provisions and revocations. The statutory guidance and any notices revoking guidance must be published.
Amendment 38 includes 'methods of payment' as one of the matters in the provisions regarding further conditions attached to a local bus service permit made through regulations. I believe that my amendments 37 and 38 give the Bill the tools to ensure that all operators, large and small, commercial and community based, know the rules, know the payment terms and can compete fairly. I would urge Members from around these tables to support these amendments so that the permit pathway is clear, fair and fit for the people of Wales.
In regard to the other amendments in this group, I'm supportive of the vast majority of those. I was grateful for the Cabinet Secretary talking to amendments 5 to 12 on those technical points. I would ask, perhaps, in her response, for her to explain why a significant number of amendments in regard to permits have been brought in at this stage and weren't necessarily considered appropriate to be included at the drafting of this legislation initially. Diolch yn fawr iawn, Chair.
One of the key amendments that we are putting forward in this group seeks to strengthen health and safety standards where multiple operators share depot facilities. Stakeholders have rightly raised concerns that differing protocols and practices amongst different operators could lead to inconsistencies and potential risks. Our amendment therefore proposes the introduction of clear and enforceable standards for the maintenance, the storage and overall safety of shared depots, ensuring a consistent approach across the network.
Now, in addition, as I've already indicated, we do support fully Rhys ab Owen's recommendation to mandate disability awareness training for all staff. This was a provision that we had previously endorsed during the legislative consent memorandum process for the UK bus Bill, though it was, regrettably, withdrawn. Reinstating this requirement is essential to ensure that staff are equipped to respond appropriately and sensitively to passengers with specific needs and thereby promoting a more inclusive and equitable transport system.
Finally, we are also advocating for measures to support active travel, ensuring that buses can accommodate pedal cycles and that secure bike storage is available at interchanges, because that is vital to ensure that we are futureproofing the network. These provisions will help to integrate bus services with wider sustainable transport options and that would encourage modal shift and support the Welsh Government's broader climate and health objectives.
Diolch, Gadeirydd. I'm really grateful to Members for their consideration of these amendments. I think we're all in agreement about what we think should be included in the regulations around permits, and in particular the importance of ensuring that they provide for safe and inclusive transport.
I think it's worth mentioning again that there'll be a comprehensive guide to the permitting regime, and many amendments, because they are technical, come to light due to ongoing engagement and the time it takes for everyone to contribute to the technical amendment. So, Sam was asking, 'Why didn't we bring it forward in the first place?' The answer is that these things are always a bit of a moving feast and we continue to consult with everyone around what they think the import of the Bill might be and what other things might be taken into account. So, I think it's really important that the Government is enabled to bring forward amendments that reflect some of those pieces of work. We just don't always get it right first time—no Government does. So, I hope that Members will consider voting for the amendments now that we're here.
The other thing is I'm just restating, Chair, all the time, that I absolutely agree with the intention behind almost everything that Members are saying, but I do urge Members to ensure that we're not inadvertently limiting how the permits might look in the future by adding, with all good intentions, unnecessary terminology to the Bill where we think those matters are covered either by a previous Bill or a UK Bill or other existing legislation. I'm more than happy to talk, and I'm sure that Ken Skates will be more than happy to talk, with members of the committee about how we can construct this going forward.
Diolch yn fawr, Cwnsler Cyffredinol. Right, we'll move to the voting, then. So, the question is that amendment 3 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No objections. Amendment 3 is therefore agreed.
Moved. The question is that amendment 37 be agreed to. Does any Member object. [Objection.] There's an objection. So, we'll vote on amendment 37. All those in favour, please show. Three. All those against. Three. It's tied, so I cast my vote in the negative, against the amendment. So, amendment 37 is not agreed.
I move amendment 4 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. So, the question is that amendment 4 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No objections. Amendment 4 is agreed.
The question is that amendment 69 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There's an objection. We'll vote on amendment 69. All those in favour, please show. Two. And against. Four. Therefore, amendment 69 is not agreed.
The question is that amendment 38 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There's an objection. We will vote on amendment 38. All those in favour, please show. Three. And against. Three. It's a tied vote. I use my casting vote in the negative, that is, against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Orders. So, amendment 38 is not agreed.
I move amendment 52 in the name of Rhys ab Owen. The question is that amendment 52 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There's an objection. We will vote on amendment 52. All those in favour, please show. Three. And all those against amendment 52. Three. It's tied, so I use my casting vote as Chair in the negative, against amendment 52, which is therefore not agreed.
I move amendment 53 in the name of Rhys ab Owen. The question is that amendment 53 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There's an objection. We vote on amendment 53. All those in favour, please show. Three. And against. Three. It's a tied vote, so I use my casting vote in the negative, against amendment 53, which is therefore not agreed.
I move amendment 54 in the name of Rhys ab Owen. The question is that amendment 54 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. We will vote on amendment 54. All those in favour, please show. Three. And against. Three. It's a tied vote, so I will cast my vote in the negative, against the amendment, meaning that amendment 54 is not agreed.
There we are. The question is that amendment 70 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There's an objection, so we'll vote on amendment 70. All those in favour of that amendment, please show. Two. And against. Four. So, amendment 70 is not agreed.
I move amendment 5 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 5 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No objection. So, amendment 5 is agreed.
I move amendment 6 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 6 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No objection. Amendment 6 is agreed.
I move amendment 7 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. Now, if amendment 7 is not agreed, then amendment 8 falls. The question is that amendment 7 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No objection. Amendment 7 is therefore agreed.
I move amendment 8 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 8 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No objection. Amendment 8 is therefore agreed.
I move amendment 9 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 9 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No objection. Amendment 9 is agreed.
I move amendment 10 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 10 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No objection. Amendment 10 is therefore agreed.
I move amendment 11 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 11 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No objection. Amendment 11 is agreed.
I move amendment 12 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 12 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No objection. That means that amendment 12 is agreed.
We will now take a short break, and we will reconvene for 11:05 so that we can make a prompt start and conclude with the remaining groups. So, we will break for a good 10 minutes. Diolch yn fawr.
So, the next group is group 6 and this sixth group of amendments relates to local bus services provided by the Welsh Ministers. The lead amendment in this group is amendment 39 and I call on Sam Rowlands to move and speak to the lead amendment and the other amendment in the group.
Thank you, Chair. Lead amendment 39 alters the condition for which a Welsh Minister may decide to provide a local bus service, rather than entering into a local bus service contract under section 9. This is so that it is only permittable when a local bus service contract is terminated, revoked or suspended. This amendment ensures that direct provision by the Welsh Minister is used only as a last resort. Whilst 'Ken's Cabs' has a nice ring to it, I think it's important to maintain the principle that local bus services are primarily delivered through formal contracts, and provides clarity and certainty to operators and passengers alike, preventing unnecessary disruption or confusion. By limiting direct intervention to only exceptional circumstances, we promote stability in service delivery whilst allowing Ministers to step in swiftly if a contract fails.
This very own committee's Stage 1 report highlights the importance of a clear and transparent framework for bus service delivery. The committee recommended that the Cabinet Secretary direct Transport for Wales to implement a clear and ongoing communications strategy, including the management of public expectations around the scope, timeline and outcomes of the bus reform programme. This amendment complements that recommendation by providing clarity on the circumstances under which direct provision may occur, thereby enhancing public confidence in the reform process.
Furthermore, that report highlights the need for TfW to demonstrate the development of the necessary organisational capacity to deliver franchising. By restricting direct provision to situations where existing contracts have been terminated or suspended, we can ensure that resources are focused on building the capacity and expertise required for successful franchising, rather than diverting attention to direct service provision when it's not necessarily needed. So, in summary, Chair, my amendment 39 balances the need for flexibility with the importance of contractual stability in our local bus services, and I expect, from a legal perspective, it's the contract that is always the most important part of that agreement.
Looking at the other amendment tabled in this group, I support amendment 71. Although, as Members are aware, I would broadly disagree with the principle, I believe that what's being put forward in this amendment is better than what is currently in place, as it allows for more accountability. Diolch yn fawr iawn.
We are proposing an important amendment here to clarify the circumstances under which the Welsh Ministers may intervene directly in the provision of local bus services, particularly in the event of a failing franchise. It's currently unclear, in the Bill's current draft, under what circumstances Ministers would intervene, therefore, this amendment would require Welsh Ministers to publish, as soon as reasonably practicable, a clear and comprehensive policy statement outlining how and when they intend to exercise their powers under section 17 of the Bill. Specifically, the policy statement must address two key areas: firstly, the precise circumstances in which Welsh Ministers would step in to directly provide services, and, secondly, the manner in which those powers would be exercised. This, we believe, is essential to ensure transparency, accountability and public confidence in the governance of the bus network.
The purpose of this amendment is to provide clarity and predictability, too, for local authorities, operators and passengers. It would ensure that any ministerial intervention is guided by a publicly available framework, rather than being ad hoc or seen as opaque—if that isn't an oxymoronic thing to say. In doing so, it strengthens the democratic oversight and helps safeguard the continuity and quality of services in the event of franchise failure or underperformance. And I would signal our support of Sam's amendment in this group as well. Diolch.
Diolch, Cadeirydd. I strongly urge Members to not accept amendment 39, as to do so would prevent the Welsh Ministers from being able to directly provide a local bus service where there are no other means of securing those services. For example, where there are no bids for a local bus service contract and no applications for permits to run those services, this would leave some communities without local bus services. In the event that the only bid by an operator for a local bus service contract is considered to not represent good value for money, this amendment would require the Welsh Ministers to accept it as it would have no alternative.
Based on previous discussions, we suspect the intent behind this amendment is to ensure that future Governments do not use this provision to nationalise the buses. I would advise that this amendment would have the opposite effect, in fact, by making it easier for future Governments to wait out or terminate contracts before utilising the provision, which would, under the amendment, not include the more effective stipulation it removes.
Members will know the Cabinet Secretary agreed to this committee’s Stage 1 recommendation 25 to ensure that TfW has robust arrangements in place for the direct provision of services, and that they will be ready to be implemented, if necessary, before the first phase of franchising commences. Transport for Wales are currently preparing a business plan for this purpose, which includes proposals for establishing a subsidiary company next year. Work is ongoing to establish the appropriate fleet and depot requirements. This work is being informed in large part by the collaboration arrangements with local authorities and industry in the south-west. A similar process has been done as part of the bridge to franchising in mid Wales, and will soon begin in the north and south-east regions.
With regard to amendment 71, I can absolutely appreciate the intention to pin down the Welsh Ministers' policy in relation to directly providing services, but I also urge Members not to accept this amendment. Simply, the amendment isn't necessary. It will not, in my view, add value to the legislation or the scrutiny of its implementation. Members may seek an oral or written statement at any time on any aspect of the delivery of the legislation or wider bus reform. The reporting process will require the inclusion of information relating to the how the Welsh Ministers have exercised their functions, including those under section 17 relating to direct provision of services. The power to directly provide services is intended to ensure we can plug any gaps in the delivery of the network if required. Essentially, it acts as a last resort power and, as such, to a large extent, we cannot know how or where it will be used before it's needed.
A brief response, Chair. I would politely disagree again with the Counsel General on her position on amendment 39. I guess it also reflects the reason why we're in different political parties and have different philosophical views on the role of Government. My argument would be, of course, in the example that the Counsel General gave where perhaps no bids would be made for a contract, for me, the contract therefore is not good enough and would need to be revisited and put back out for tender as appropriate. My concern is, wherever there's a monopoly, where there's lack of competition, that's where we always see poorer performance, it's where we always see less value for money. I would be concerned about this amendment not getting supported and the outcomes of that. Diolch yn fawr iawn.
Diolch yn fawr. The question is that amendment 39 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection, so we'll vote on amendment 39. All those in favour, please show. One. All those against, three. And any abstentions? Two. Amendment 39 is not agreed.
The question is that amendment 71 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There's an objection. We will vote on amendment 71. All those in favour, please show. Three. And against, three. That's a tied vote, so I use my casting vote in the negative against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Orders, meaning that amendment 71 is not agreed.
The seventh group of amendments relates to Welsh Ministers' reliance on certain services to fulfil their duty under section 5(1)(c). The lead and only amendment in this group is amendment 40, and I call on Sam Rowlands to move and speak to the amendment.
Thank you, Chair. Community bus services play a crucial role in connecting rural and underserved areas where commercial bus services may not be viable. By recognising this within the core duties of Welsh Ministers, we ensure that these services are not an afterthought, but an integral part of our public transport strategy.
Amendment 40 inserts a new subsection for section 18, regarding reliance on community bus services and other services, for the purposes of securing the provision of local bus services as part of the core duties of Welsh Ministers. This would ensure that Welsh Ministers publish a statement of their policy regarding how community bus services will be supported. By enshrining this duty into law, we ensure that community bus services receive the attention and support necessary to thrive alongside national networks. This amendment, in my view, strikes the right balance between national oversight and local autonomy, helping to protect and sustain the services that keep our communities connected. I would urge Members to support this important amendment.
I can see the intention behind this. Of course, community transport is hugely important in rural areas, and it serves the needs of those who rely on it, and they have no other means of transport whatsoever. Sadly, I won't be supporting the amendment, but I look forward to listening to the Minister's response on this, or the Counsel General in this case. But I do think it's something that we as a committee have talked about, and will pay due attention to, and we'll need to be satisfied, going forward. I don't think there's a community that isn't touched by the reliance on community transport. So, we're with you in spirit, but we're not going to vote for it. We do look forward to hearing the explanations on how this is going to be addressed going forward.
Just in support of what my colleague Joyce Watson said, and the proposal. Community transport fulfils, very often, the gap for medical transport as well. So, again, I agree that it's hugely important, but I won't be supporting this amendment.
Diolch, Cadeirydd. This Bill does not aim to regulate the role of community bus services or section 19 services within the wider transport network. Section 19 services will not qualify as ‘local bus services’ within the meaning of section 1, and whilst some community bus services might fall within the scope of the Bill, others will not, and will continue to exist outside of local bus services and the provisions of this Bill. Whilst we have sought to ensure, for the benefit of the communities they serve and the wider public, that the provision of certain community services is able to be integrated into the new system, they will also continue to be delivered outside of it. The amendment seeks to require the Welsh Ministers to prepare and publish a statement in relation to those services, including on the support to be provided to operators delivering services relied upon for the purposes of the section 5(1)(c) duty.
In scrutiny at Stage 1, the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales made it clear that this Government is committed to continuing to support the community transport sector. Currently, funding is provided via the bus services support grant, and we acknowledge that the existing model will change as a result of bus reform. Officials have been meeting with the Community Transport Association to discuss this, and further engagement will continue to develop a new funding mechanism that ensures the sector continues to benefit from the support of the Welsh Government to deliver the vital services they provide across communities.
As with my response to other similar amendments, Chair, I'm of the view that the intent behind amendment 40 can more effectively be done outside of legislation, via an oral or written statement to the Senedd. I’m advised that it's very unlikely that many, if any, services will be relied upon under section 18 of the Bill, and therefore there is also a question of proportionality in relation to this matter. For these reasons, I strongly advise the committee to reject amendment 40.
I wanted to go on to reassure Members that we are, and will continue to, work closely with community transport representatives. Transport for Wales have held a workshop with community transport operators in the south-west to unpack how community transport will be integrated into the wider network. This engagement will be repeated in each region as franchising is rolled out. Community transport operators provide a vital service for some of the most vulnerable in our society. We will ensure that strong engagement continues to help provide clarity and assurance on how community transport will be supported going forward. Diolch. Thank you, Chair.
Thank you, Chair, and thank you to colleagues for your comments on this amendment. I note colleagues' support in principle, but not necessarily with their votes here today. Of course, I would urge you to go with your principle on this, and to support this amendment, because whilst the Counsel General pointed to this perhaps being more appropriately dealt with through an oral or written statement, to get the certainty that you would want and need, legislation, and amendments within legislation, is the most certain way you can have those assurances that community bus services, community transport, is properly considered and properly engaged with. So I urge all Members, despite your gut reaction to this, to perhaps reconsider and support this amendment.
Diolch, Sam. The question is that amendment 40 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection, so we'll move to a vote on amendment 40. All those in favour of amendment 40, please show. Three. All those against. Three. It’s a tied vote, so I use my casting vote in the negative against the amendment in accordance with Standing Orders, meaning that amendment 40 is not agreed.
The eighth group of amendments relates to cross-border services. The lead and only amendment in this group is amendment 72, and I call on Delyth Jewell to move and to speak to the amendment.
I would indicate my support for all the amendments in this group, because there is only that amendment.
We believe that guidance is needed for cross-border services, particularly when it comes to the application of a local bus permit. Co-ordination with the UK Government, we think, is essential to avoid conflicts and ensure effective service delivery, especially when funding comes from multiple sources. Clarity in this area has, however, already been hampered by the interaction between this Bill and the UK bus Bill. The legislative process has been delayed by the passage of the legislative consent motion for the UK legislation, and that has created conflicting interpretations that overlap with devolved competencies. This has in turn limited the Senedd’s ability to properly scrutinise its own bus services Bill.
Our amendment would require Welsh Ministers to issue clear guidance on cross-border services and the application of permits. The purpose is simple, and that is to provide clarity and certainty. I believe without it, both passengers and operators risk confusion and disruption. I would urge Members to support it.
Diolch, Cadeirydd. I urge Members not to support amendment 72, as it would effectively require the Welsh Ministers to issue statutory guidance to themselves, seeing as they will be the authority responsible for securing the relevant cross-border services.
It's important that we protect and promote services crossing between Wales and England for the benefit of communities on both sides of the border, and so I'm very pleased to say that Welsh Government officials are already working with TfW to identify all the individual services that run along the border with a view to developing an approach to determine how most appropriately to deliver them under the new system. TfW will continue to engage with the relevant local authorities in England to ensure that communities on both sides of the border benefit from good local services.
But in relation to permitting cross-border services as highlighted in the response to this committee’s Stage 1 recommendation 24, the Cabinet Secretary has already committed to publishing a guide setting out the processes and fees associated with applying for local bus service permits and associated matters. This advice note will refer to applications for permits in relation to cross-border services, and so I hope will do the thing that this amendment is hoping to do by way of statutory guidance.
I appreciate the points the Counsel General has made, and as a result, I—. No, my concerns around this matter do still remain, so I will move the amendment still, but I wonder if, in advance of Stage 3, we could possibly look at this again, because I accept that that it is possible that it might not be necessary, but because I am not completely content in my mind about it, I will still push it, but I appreciate what's been said.
Diolch yn fawr. The question is that amendment 72 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. We will vote on amendment 72. All those in favour, please show. Two. All those against. Four, meaning that amendment 72 is not agreed.
The ninth group of amendments relates to a passenger charter and forum. The lead amendment in this group is amendment 41, and I call on Sam Rowlands to move and speak to the lead amendment and the other amendment in the group.
Thank you, Chair. I'm sure all Members in this room would agree that passengers should always be at the heart of what we do, and consideration of them is the most important thing in regard to this legislation. Amendment 41 inserts a new but significant section into the Bill regarding a passenger charter. This will require Welsh Ministers to publish a passenger charter in relation to local bus services that sets out what persons using local bus services can expect regarding service quality, ticketing, information provision, handling of delays, accessibility, facilities and other relevant matters concerning the operators, and those involving service delivery. This charter would also be kept under review, with revisions being made where appropriate by Welsh Ministers after having consulted the necessary bodies and stakeholders.
I believe this amendment is an important step towards improving the experience of those who rely on local bus services across Wales. As all Members in this place would believe, it's important to hold public services to high standards and ensure that users receive the quality that they deserve and expect. For communities across Wales, this passenger charter represents a commitment to fairness and quality. It aligns with principles of local engagement and accountability, while supporting a modern, efficient transport system that meets people's needs.
Many stakeholders and concerned constituents have repeatedly raised the issue of accessibility with me, and we've heard it already here today from others. While I recognise that the Bill's scope does not directly allow for wide-ranging amendments on accessibility standards themselves, amendment 41 ensures that accessibility is not ignored. By requiring Welsh Ministers to set out what passengers can expect in terms of accessible services, whether it's older people, disabled passengers or parents with young children, the passenger charter offers a meaningful mechanism to address those long-standing concerns. It provides a practical route to acknowledge and respond to the real-life experiences of those who face barriers using public transport, helping to embed fairness and inclusivity into the very fabric of our local bus services. So, in conclusion, Chair, I urge all Members to support amendment 41. It will strengthen our bus services by putting passengers at the heart of the system, ensuring that they know exactly what they can expect.
In regard to the other amendments in this group, I'm supportive of amendment 77, tabled by Peredur Owen Griffiths, which seeks to establish, in essence, a similar thing to what I'm attempting to do with amendment 41. So, I would support that amendment also. Diolch yn fawr iawn.
Diolch, Cadeirydd. I move amendment 77. We are proposing an amendment that would place a statutory duty, as Sam has indicated, on local authorities to establish a passenger forum, which would be a structured mechanism for engaging directly with communities being served. This forum would provide a vital platform for discussing issues relating to local bus services, and would ensure that the voices of passengers are heard and reflected in service planning and delivery. The forum would then feed advice back on service needs and on how to improve reliability, safety, affordability, accessibility. Crucially, local authorities would be required to consider this input when exercising their functions under the Act. We also support the passenger charter idea proposed by Sam, which would complement this amendment by setting out clear expectations for service standards and for passenger rights. Together, these measures could ensure that passengers are not only consulted but empowered, helping to shape a bus network that is responsive, inclusive and accountable.
Transport for Wales already has a passenger charter, and it covers lowest available fares, information, assistance, compensation et cetera. And I just wondered if that is something that could be extended in the future to include public bus transport as well as rail transport.
I want to support that. Again, we absolutely have to have oversight of this and there has to be accountability—no question about that—and the accountability has to be to the customers on behalf of the delivery. I won't be supporting the amendments, but I do think that, as Carolyn has already said, Transport for Wales have an overview. I'm concerned about putting the burden on local government, which is why I'm not supporting your amendment, because I think they've got an awful lot to deal with already. It would take quite a budget requirement by all of them to fulfil that obligation at a time when budgets are already pretty tight.
But, of course, we've got to have oversight, and I'll await the Counsel General's explanation on how that oversight will work and I would like to see more of that before we move into Stage 3.
Diolch, Cadeirydd. I'll respond to both amendments 41 and 77 together, because, although I'm not of the view that either should be agreed by Members today, I do think they provide an opportunity to deliver provision to encourage inclusivity and promote public engagement in the bus.
The Cabinet Secretary agreed in principle with recommendation 6 of the committee's report relating to statutory provision for a passenger charter, and, as a result, instructed TfW to begin work on developing a bus charter along the lines of its rail charter, which Carolyn and others have just mentioned. I understand that this work is progressing well. And although we're still of the view that this doesn't necessarily require statutory provision in and of itself, the work undertaken by Members has led us to consider how we might make statutory provision for engaging with communities on accessibility in the broader sense, as I described earlier, in order to inform local bus service delivery under the franchise model. I've instructed officials to engage with local authority representatives and consider the provisions included in the UK Bus Services (No. 2) Bill, which require local authorities in England to develop accessibility plans.
On the individual amendments, our reasons for not accepting amendment 41 are primarily because we believe that it would be unnecessarily onerous and unwieldly as drafted, in particular the revision and consultation requirements. And whilst I absolutely commend the intent behind amendment 77, I'm concerned that it would create quite an industry for local authorities at a time when they are under considerable resource pressure. I think we can secure a similar effect to those desired from these amendments through engagement and the development of a fit-for-purpose accessibility plan, and therefore, Chair, I'm proposing that we develop an amendment for Stage 3, which we can share in advance with Members, to ensure that we come up with something that satisfies the need to include provision around accessibility and inclusion through public engagement. And I'm happy to commit to working with Members to bring that amendment forward.
Diolch, Chair. I'm grateful to Members for their consideration of the amendments tabled within this group, and I appreciate the broadly positive reception of these amendments, but not necessarily without the unanimous voting support.
I'm grateful to the Counsel General for the recognition that there's an opportunity to do something in this space, and I certainly welcome that engagement as you seek to develop whatever that may look like. I would continue to urge Members, though, to consider the fact that what's being proposed here by myself and by Plaid Cymru here is to embed this within the legislation, on the face of the Bill, to give all Members in this place the certainty that passengers will be properly considered and properly engaged with. Whilst guidance is positive, and whilst softer measures are welcome, the only way we can guarantee that this will work as we all want to see is to have it in the legislation so that we can hold those Ministers to account for the delivering of this. Diolch yn fawr iawn.
Diolch, Sam. The question is that amendment 41 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There's an objection. We will vote on amendment 41. All those in favour, please show. Three. And against. Three. It's a tied vote, so I use my casting vote against amendment 41, meaning that it is not agreed.
The question is that amendment 42 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There's an objection. We will vote on amendment 42. All those in favour. Three. And against. Three. It's a tied vote again, so I'll use my casting vote in the negative against the amendment, meaning that amendment 42 is not agreed.
The question is that amendment 73 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There's an objection. We will vote on amendment 73. All those in favour. Three. And against. Three. It's a tied vote, so I will use my casting vote against amendment 73, meaning that it is not agreed.
I move amendment 13 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary, and call on the Counsel General to speak to the lead amendment and to the other amendments in the group.
Diolch, Cadeirydd. This group of amendments are all Government amendments tabled by the Cabinet Secretary. I want to apologise in advance to the committee for the length and level of detail required for this grouping. I'm very sorry, but it's quite complicated.
To assist the traffic commissioner to carry out their enforcement functions related to the restriction in Part 3 of the Bill, amendment 13 inserts a new requirement on the Welsh Ministers to notify the traffic commissioner when a contract has been entered into, when a permit has been granted, and its duration, when a contract has been terminated, and when a permit has been revoked or suspended, and the duration of the suspension.
As well as supporting the traffic commissioner to carry out their enforcement functions, this amendment might also support the traffic commissioner in exercising the existing functions relating to the registration of local services under section 6 of the Transport Act 1985—1985—important to get the date right, the right transport Act. Under the new model, most Welsh services will no longer be registered under section 6. However, the English sections of cross-border services would have to be registered, along with community bus services and services provided under section 46 of the 1981 Act, except for those operated under a local bus service contract or permit. So, I ask the committee to vote in favour of this amendment.
The next group of Government amendments are all crucial to making the Bill workable. They deal with the minor and consequential amendments to existing legislation and to the Bill. Because of this, I urge Members to vote in favour of them. If Members bear with me, I will quickly summarise those amendments.
Amendment 15 amends section 36(2)(b) of the Bill to clarify how the existing registration requirement under section 6 of the Transport Act 1985 will apply to cross-border hail-and-ride services. Hail-and-ride services are standard local bus services that operate on a fixed route and have fixed embarkation and disembarkation points as well as opportunities for passengers to get on or off the bus in between these fixed points, where it is safe to do so. The effect of the amendment is that, where part of a hail-and-ride service crosses into England and it does not have fixed stopping points in England, the English part of the service will still be treated as requiring registration. If this clarification was not made, there may be scope for services that do not have fixed stopping points in England to fall outside the registration requirements, despite operating in England.
Amendment 16 inserts a new section into the Bill. This is needed to automatically cease the existing registrations of local bus services in Wales and automatically remove, in relation to those services, existing conditions attached to PSV operators' licences by a traffic commissioner under section 8 of the 1985 Act.
Amendment 17 amends section 7 of the Transport (Wales) Act 2006 so that local bus service contracts are not subject to the restriction in section 7(4) of that Act relating to subsidies. Amendment 18 removes the power of local authorities to make quality partnership schemes, ticketing schemes and quality contract schemes under the 2000 Act. The amendment also revokes existing quality partnership schemes, ticketing schemes and quality contract schemes.
Quality partnership schemes require bus operators to meet service standards when using facilities provided by local authorities, ticketing schemes require local bus service operators to implement agreed ticketing arrangements, and quality contract schemes enable local authorities to determine the local bus services that should be provided via entering into contracts with operators. The repeal of these provisions is necessary because local authority powers to make ticketing schemes, quality contract schemes and quality partnership schemes will be superseded as a consequence of moving to the new model, with powers for the Welsh Ministers, rather than local authorities, to determine the local bus services that are required and make provision about ticketing and increased service standards.
Yes, that's moved. The question is that amendment 43 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection. We will vote on amendment 43. All those in favour, please show. Three. And against. Three. It's a tied vote, so I use my casting vote against amendment 43, meaning that it is not agreed.
I move amendment 14 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary and call on the Counsel General to speak to the lead amendment and the other amendments in this group. Counsel General.
Diolch, Cadeirydd. This group of amendments deals with Part 4 of the Bill, which concerns information and data. I open this discussion with amendment 14, which seeks to expand the type of information that may be specified in regulations under section 25(4)(n). The amendment clarifies that the Welsh Ministers can request forecasts from current and former operators relating to any of the matters listed in subsection (4) and not just, as currently drafted, journeys, passenger numbers and revenue.
This amendment will ultimately enable the Welsh Ministers to obtain a wide range of forward-looking information and data from operators in order to better inform developments and possible revisions to the Welsh bus network plan. I strongly encourage Members to accept this amendment.
Diolch, Cadeirydd. Efallai dyma'r tro olaf y byddaf yn siarad yn ystod Stage 2. Felly, buaswn i'n hoffi rhoi fy niolch ar y record i Mari a Lewis yn swyddfa'r blaid, sydd wedi cynorthwyo Peredur a finnau wrth baratoi am hyn. Felly, diolch yn fawr iawn iddyn nhw.
The Bill as it currently stands does not include any provisions to monitor the punctuality of bus services. Our amendment in this group seeks to address this gap by placing a statutory duty on the relevant authorities to monitor and report on service punctuality. Now, the purpose of this amendment would be twofold. Firstly, to enhance accountability, and, secondly, to drive tangible improvements in service reliability.
At present, organisations like Bus Users UK in Wales carry out voluntary monitoring of bus punctuality, but without statutory backing, these efforts remain limited in scope, and indeed influence. By embedding punctuality monitoring into the Bill itself, we could ensure that reliable, consistent and transparent data is available, which would allow passengers, policy makers and operators to hold services to account. Furthermore, our amendment places an explicit requirement for the information to be made accessible through multiple channels, including print, phone and digital platforms, so that no passenger is excluded. We would also want to make sure that those with disabilities are provided for here. This is particularly important for those, of course, who lack internet access or have limited digital literacy. Ensuring that service information is accessible universally would reinforce the principle that our public transport network must serve all communities and all members of our communities fairly and effectively. So, in short, this amendment seeks to guarantee that punctuality is not only measured and reported on, but is done in a way that is inclusive, transparent and is directly linked to the improvement of services for passengers across Wales. Diolch yn fawr.
Diolch, Chair. I'd certainly like to support Delyth Jewell's points that she's made, and I'll speak briefly to my amendments, 44 through to 47, which seek to achieve many of the points that Delyth Jewell has just highlighted. It's one simple, but vital idea, that information about our bus services must be clear, accessible and meaningful to the public. This committee has rightly highlighted concerns that, as drafted, the Bill lacks detail on what information will be available to Ministers, to stakeholders and, most crucially, to passengers. Without that level of information, how can we do our role, as Members of this Senedd, to best ensure accountability and to seek improvement to those important services?
Amendments 44 and 47 both add 'performance of services' to the list of data that can be collected and published. That includes reliability, punctuality, cancellations—the real-world experiences that matter most to passengers.
Amendment 45 allows Welsh Ministers to issue statutory guidance on how information should be shared, and in what formats, helping to make data user-friendly, not buried in technical jargon. And amendment 46 ensures clarity on how this information is presented, so that people can use it to understand how services are performing in their area.
Chair, this is about building public trust. If this committee, and if this place, is seeking people to use public transport more often than they perhaps do today, we need to show them clearly how it's working, where it's failing, and what is improving. I would urge Members to support these small but significant steps towards a more transparent and accountable bus system.
I'd also like to put on record that I'm supportive of amendments 14, 74, 75 and 76. Diolch yn fawr iawn.
Diolch, Cadeirydd. I want to thank Members for their amendments and their contributions. Whilst I agree with the intent behind amendment 74, I do believe it's unnecessary. Amendment 74 would add 'punctuality of services' into the list of information that the Welsh Ministers may prescribe in regulations under section 25 as information that may be requested from operators and former operators. This is already covered under paragraph (a)—information about 'timetable and frequencies of service', which includes the implementation of the timetable in practice. So, this amendment isn't needed. And in any event, the list included under section 25(4) is not exhaustive. Therefore, information about certain matters that are not listed in that subsection could still be specified in the regulations.
In developing these provisions, officials have given significant consideration, in consultation with TfW, as to the content of the list in this section. The objective was to ensure the legislation provided a broad idea, rather than a definitive list, of the type of information that could be required to aid the development of the network plan. By making the list too granular, we risk losing the flexibility afforded by the line 'among other things'.
Similarly to the last amendment, I ask committee to reject amendments 44 and 75, and amendments 47 and 76. Section 27 places a duty on Welsh Ministers to make arrangements to secure that information specified in regulations is made available to the public. The list in subsection 27(4) provides a non-exhaustive list of what may be included in those regulations.
Amendment 44 would add 'performance of services', and amendment 45 would add 'punctuality of services' to the list. As with amendment 74, I understand entirely why the Members have tabled these amendments. However, we are of the view that they are not required, because they are covered by other matters already included in subsection 27(4)—'timetables and frequencies'.
Section 28 of the Bill ensures that regulations can be made to require certain operators to provide information to the Welsh Ministers to enable them to fulfil their duty to make information available to the public under section 27. The list in subsection 28(3) provides a non-exhaustive list of what may be included in the regulations. Amendment 47 would add 'performance of services', and amendment 76 would add 'punctuality of services' to that list. As I have advised for the amendments to section 27 to be rejected where the information is to be given to the public, it would mean there would be no reason for this information to be specified in section 28. For the avoidance of doubt, we are also of the view that 'performance of services' and 'punctuality of services' are covered by other matters already included in subsection 28(3)—'timetables and frequencies'. The list provides a non-exhaustive list of what may be included in the regulations.
Diolch yn fawr, Cwnsler Cyffredinol. So, the question is that amendment 14 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Interruption.] Amendment 14. No, no objection. There we are. Okay, so amendment 14 is agreed.
There we are. The question is that amendment 74 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection, so we will move to a vote. Those in favour of amendment 74, please show. Three. In favour of amendment 74, three. Against amendment 74, three. It's a tied vote, so I use my casting vote in the negative against amendment 74, in accordance with Standing Orders, so amendment 74 is not accepted.
The question is that amendment 44 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. All those in favour of 44, please show. Three. And against. Three. It's a tied vote, so I use my casting vote against amendment 44, which subsequently is not agreed.
There we are. The question is that amendment 75 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection, so we vote on amendment 75. Those in favour, please show. Three. And against. Three. Again, it's a tied vote, so I use my casting vote against amendment 75, meaning that that amendment is not agreed.
Yes. The question is that amendment 45 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There's an objection. We'll vote on amendment 45. All those in favour, please show. Three. And against. Three. It's a tied vote, so I use my casting vote in the negative against amendment 45, in accordance with Standing Orders, so it is not agreed.
The question is that amendment 46 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection. We'll vote on amendment 46. Those in favour, please show. Three. And against. Three. It's a tied vote, so I use my casting vote against amendment 46, which subsequently is not agreed.
The question is that amendment 47 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection. We'll vote on amendment 47. All those in favour, please show. Three. And against. Three. It's a tied vote, so I use my casting vote in the negative against the amendment, and therefore amendment 47 is not agreed.
The question is that amendment 76 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. We'll vote on amendment 76. All those in favour. Three. And against. Three. It's a tied vote, so, in accordance with Standing Orders, I use my casting vote in the negative against amendment 76, which is therefore not agreed.
The twelfth and final group of amendments relates to local authority powers and duties. The lead and only amendment in this group is amendment 48, and I call on Sam Rowlands to move and speak to the amendment. Sam.
Thank you, Chair, and they do say that it's good to save the best till last and this, of course is one of those excellent amendments. [Laughter.] My final amendment, 48, ensures that, prior to a local authority providing financial assistance in connection with the provision of a local bus service, Welsh Ministers and the relevant local authority must reach an agreement regarding how that financial assistance will be used. Many local authorities, operators and stakeholders have expressed concern about the transparency and accountability of how public funding is used in supporting bus services. The Stage 1 report from this committee emphasises the importance of clear roles, responsibilities and financial oversight throughout the reformed bus system. This amendment addresses those concerns directly by requiring Welsh Ministers and the relevant local authority to reach a binding agreement before any financial assistance is granted, ensuring that both parties are aligned on how the funds will be used. This measure offers a safeguard that public money will be deployed in a way that aligns with wider policy goals for network coherence, service quality and value for money. It provides local authorities with certainty and prevents misalignment between ministerial ambitions and local delivery, reinforcing accountability in a system where public investment must deliver for communities. Diolch.
Diolch, Cadeirydd. I recommend, unfortunately, that Members do not accept amendment 48. We've already made a commitment to local authorities and to this committee that all additional funding provided by a local authority will be spent within that authority. An amendment such as this would amount to a statutory agreement on how local authorities should spend their funding, which in our view is not appropriate. A statutory agreement is not needed, as local authorities are unlikely to fund local bus services without stipulating what they intend their investment to be spent on. We will work collaboratively with local authorities to establish where they wish to invest and ensure their continued investment in bus services.
I also note that section 34 of the Bill aims to preserve, as far as possible, the status quo regarding local authority powers to provide financial assistance in respect of local bus services. The existing power for local authorities to provide financial assistance to public passenger transport services, section 63(5) of the Transport Act 1985, which will no longer be exercisable in respect of local bus services, does not make the provision of assistance contingent on agreements being reached with other persons, such as the Welsh Ministers.
And Chair, as this is the final group of the amendments being brought to this committee, I just wanted to take this opportunity to once again thank the committee and its members for their scrutiny and work on this Bill up to now and as we head forward and to reiterate the commitments I’ve made during the course of this Stage 2 to work with Members on bringing forward a range of amendments that we agree the intention of but need to work on the wording for. Diolch yn fawr. Thank you very much.
Diolch, Chair. I'll just start where the Counsel General left off, which is to add my thanks to this committee for welcoming me here today and enabling me to move the amendments that I'd laid. Also I put on record my thanks for the continued support from the clerks and the Commission staff in preparing these amendments here today as well. I'm sure I'll no doubt be speaking to them again in the near future for that continued support.
Just responding to the Minister's points with regard to my amendment, I accept some of the points that the Minister has raised, but I do feel that there is still an issue not being addressed here, which is that certainty that local authorities are seeking regarding the way in which any financial assistance is dealt with, managed. I think that it's still right to create that certainty through an amendment like this. So, I continue to urge Members to support this amendment. Thank you.
Diolch yn fawr. So, the question is that amendment 48 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There's an objection. We will vote on amendment 48. All those in favour of that amendment, please show. One. All those against. Four. And Delyth is abstaining. There we are. Okay. Thank you very much. So, one in favour, four against, one abstention. So, that amendment, 48, is not agreed.
There we are. The question is that amendment 77 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There we are, it's objected to. So, we will move to a vote. All those in favour of amendment 77, please show. Three. All those against. Three. Any—. Well, there wouldn't be any abstentions, because everybody has voted. So, it's a tied vote, and I use my casting vote in the negative against amendment 77, which is therefore not agreed.
I move amendment 15 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. So, the question is that amendment 15 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No objections. Amendment 15 is agreed.
I move amendment 16 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 16 be agreed to. Does any Member object? There's no objection. Amendment 16 is agreed.
I move amendment 17 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 17 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No objection. Amendment 17 is agreed.
I move amendment 18 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 18 be agreed to. Does any Member object? There's no objection. Amendment 18 is therefore agreed.
I move amendment 19 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. If amendment 19 is not agreed, amendments 21 and 22 fall. So, the question is that amendment 19 be agreed to. Does any Member object? There's no objection. Amendment 19 is therefore agreed.
I move amendment 20 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 20 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No objections. Amendment 20 is agreed.
I move amendment 21 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 21 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No objection. Amendment 21 is agreed.
I move amendment 22 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 22 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No objection, meaning that amendment 22 is agreed.
Now, that brings us to the end, therefore, of Stage 2 proceedings. I'd like to thank the Counsel General for her attendance, and a transcript, of course, of the meeting will be sent to you to check for factual accuracy. I'd like to inform everyone, of course, that Stage 2 begins tomorrow—Stage 3 begins tomorrow; Stage 2 has concluded today. The relevant dates for Stage 3 proceedings will be published in due course and Standing Orders, of course, make provision for the Member in charge to prepare a revised explanatory memorandum, taking account of the amendments agreed today. The revised memorandum will be laid at least five working days before Stage 3 proceedings.
So, with that, can I thank the Counsel General for her attendance again, for being with us? We are grateful to you for your presence, and I'm sure that Members will be looking forward to working with you and the Cabinet Secretary, particularly, on some of the issues that have been raised as we look to potentially introduce amendments at Stage 3. Diolch yn fawr iawn.
So, the committee will move on to our next item, which is papers to note, and I would invite Members to note papers 3.1 and 3.2 in our papers today. Are you happy to do that? There we are.
Therefore, just to remind you, as I conclude the meeting, that our next meeting will be on Wednesday, 5 November—so, you will 'remember, remember' that one—where we will be hearing evidence from Dŵr Cymru, of course, in relation to their transformation programme, which was announced recently. With that, diolch yn fawr iawn, and we'll bring the meeting to a close. Diolch.
Local authorities, we think, remain best placed to make decisions on learner travel needs in their communities. We are working closely with them to ensure we take full advantage of the opportunities the Bill provides. Therefore, I’m not of the view that amendment 56 is necessary, as the second objective states that Welsh Ministers must seek to continuously improve the affordability of local bus services. In addition to this, section 5 of the Bill states that the Welsh Ministers must determine the local bus services that they consider are required for the purpose of securing safe, integrated, sustainable, efficient and economic transport in Wales.
And then, in relation to amendment 57, I find myself immediately sympathetic to the intent here, but I would urge Members not to agree to it for the following reasons. The definition tabled for the word 'accessibility' has the effect of limiting its use to passengers with disabilities. We are of the view that accessibility is much broader than this and should consider those who are more vulnerable owing to other protected characteristics. For example, those who are pregnant or postnatal; those who may be subject to discrimination due to their culture or sexuality or who may not feel welcome or safe on buses. And as the Cabinet Secretary said in the response to the committee’s recommendation 11, by defining the term 'accessibility' in the Bill, we risk making the objective, and therefore the services, less inclusive.
It’s also worth remembering that, as a public body, we are already required under the Equality Act 2010 to make reasonable adjustments in certain circumstances, which includes providing information in alternative, accessible formats like large print or audio recordings when requested. We are also subject to other legislation relating to the other matters identified in the amendment’s section 4(10), such as the Public Service Vehicles Accessibility Regulations 2000, known in the industry as PSVAR, which require local buses services to provide both audio and visual announcements for upcoming stops.
And then, Chair, moving on to amendments 42 and 73, relating to the reporting requirements under the Bill, I urge Members not to agree these. I’m not clear how consultation in accordance with amendment 42 would add value, as the report is an assessment of progress towards achieving the objectives, and it doesn’t introduce new policies or proposals around delivery, which would require stakeholder input. It’s a process intended to provide transparency and accountability, rather than to shape policy. And whilst I agree that consultation with the identified stakeholders is extremely useful in understanding their viewpoint as to how implementation is going, this can be achieved without amending the legislation and creating unnecessary statutory provision.
Transport for Wales's engagement work to date demonstrates that engagement is at the heart of everything we're doing in this space, particularly in the south Wales region, where this work is most mature. With regard to amendment 73, the reports are required to focus on progress towards achieving the objectives. I feel that the insertion of this amendment would be confusing to say the least, as it is not an objective under the Bill, nor does it relate to a function of Welsh Ministers in the Bill. Congestion will undoubtedly be a factor considered in the delivery of the bus network, but the matter itself is, in my view, outside of the scope of this Bill. Diolch.
In terms of the publication of financial information relating to local authority investment in the bus network, it is for local authorities to publish information about their spending plans, rather than for the Welsh Ministers. Diolch yn fawr.
Unfortunately, Chair, I'm unable to accept amendments 29 and 32. I understand the persistent desire to include specific references to English local authorities in the list of consultees, but, as the Cabinet Secretary set out in his response to this committee’s Stage 1 recommendation 27, to explicitly mention English local authorities on the face of the Bill could place a requirement on the Welsh Ministers to consult those English local authorities on all aspects of the Welsh bus network plan, and not just on the services relevant to them. We are confident that sections 6(4)(g) and 8(4)(g), to place a duty to consult other persons that the Welsh Ministers consider appropriate, adequately cover a duty to consult relevant English local authorities on cross-border services, as I absolutely accept what Sam said, that of course buses don't stop at the border, and we need to have a mechanism to do so.
In fact, Chair, TfW are already engaging with English local authorities, in particular in the north-east, in relation to existing and future cross-border services, and will continue to do this in the development of the network plan. TfW has recently engaged with all the consultees identified in section 6 of the Bill on the first iteration of the network plan in preparation for implementation. This included engagement with the four English authorities bordering Wales.
I thank the Member for amendments 60 and 65 but unfortunately I am unable to support them and advise Members to reject them on the grounds that persons with disabilities are included under sections 6(4)(e) and 8(4)(e) in relation to employees of operators of local bus services, and subsection 6(4)(f) and 8(4)(f) in relation to bus users and potential users. As I said before, accepting the amendments may undermine the broad provisions.
We very much want to put customers at the heart of what we’re doing with bus. We are happy to consider any reasonable proposal that will support better engagement with passengers and help to provide a better service. However, I am afraid I am not convinced the amendments are required to reflect that.
Similarly, Chair, I cannot recommend Members accept amendments 30 and 33, as the wording is already covered by existing provision in the Bill. Subsections 6(4)(g) and 8(4)(g) require the Welsh Ministers to consult with any other person they consider appropriate. I very strongly take the view that these would, of course, include consideration of under-represented groups or anyone whose needs have been given insufficient weight with regard to local bus services. This is reflected in the engagement work TfW are already doing in the south-west, where they have held stakeholder workshops and community drop-in sessions. The Cabinet Secretary has asked TfW to build on its accessibility and inclusion panel, made up of bus users and non-users, and they are among those who have been consulted on the plan.
Moving on to amendments 61 and 63, relating to the publication of a financial assessment accompanying the bus network plan and any revisions to it, I am not really clear what sort of financial assessment these amendments wish to introduce. I appreciate the desire to understand the financial implications that arise from bus reform, and we are open to discussing potential alternative provisions that will get the effect intended with members of the committee. So I'm very happy to work with members of the committee before Stage 3. I'm sure the Cabinet Secretary will want to do so.
But I do not believe these amendments, as drafted, represent the best approach. I would question how these would work with the requirement to lay the revised plan only once a year. What period would it cover, for example? Would we be assessing the affordability of providing a particular service for a specific period? So, Chair, I urge Members to reject these amendments. But I think it might be worth the Member and the Cabinet Secretary discussing this matter further in advance of Stage 3.
I cannot accept amendment 34, as it would have the effect of requiring the Welsh Ministers to issue guidance to local authorities and others in relation to exercising their own functions—in this case, on revising the network plan. As highlighted in the Welsh Government’s response to this committee’s Stage 1 recommendation 18, the Cabinet Secretary has committed to developing an advice note to help local authorities, operators and other stakeholders to understand the meaning of 'minor' and 'reasonably practicable' within the context of revisions to the network plan. The advice note will also contain information to help local authorities and operators better understand the circumstances around revisions to the network plan and will be developed in collaboration with local authorities and in consultation with wider stakeholders.
The memorandum of understanding between the Welsh Ministers, TfW, local authorities and corporate joint committees, which I’ve mentioned previously, will also cover ways of working in relation to revisions to the network plan—for example, how emergency and short-term temporary closures of roads should be conveyed between TfW, local authorities and operators; and how effective engagement will be assured between TfW and the statutory consultees on any longer term improvements to the plan. Diolch.
The Cabinet Secretary provided some examples in his evidence to committee in Stage 1 of when he thought this power might be employed, including in the event where there are no bids for contracts, or if an operator went out of business during the term of their contract. I want to reassure Members that the purpose of section 17 is to enable the Welsh Ministers to directly provide services where it is required and where it is more effective than a contract or permit arrangement, for example where it provides better value for the public. Diolch.
Amendment 19 and amendment 22 make provision giving effect to Schedule 1 on minor and consequential amendments and insert that Schedule into the Bill respectively. Chair, you'll be delighted to know that I won’t go through each and every consequential amendment, but these are the key ones I’d like to draw to the committee’s attention. The Schedule makes provision for amending several existing Acts to remove references to quality partnership schemes, ticketing schemes and quality contract schemes in other provisions. This is intended to make good the intent behind amendment 18. Provision in the Schedule also makes amendments to section 93 of the 1985 Act, which provides local authorities with discretionary powers to make travel concession schemes for the provision of concessions on journeys of public passenger transport in their areas and in the vicinity of their areas.
Schedule 1 amends section 93, so that schemes can no longer be made in respect of local bus services. In practice, the discretionary powers are no longer used by authorities in Wales, because they have been superseded by mandatory requirements to provide concessions.
Paragraph 3(2) of Schedule 1 disapplies the information requirements applicable to Welsh local authorities in section 138 to 141 and 143 of the 2000 Act. It will not be necessary for these provisions to apply in Wales, given the new information provisions in sections 25 to 28 of the Bill.
Paragraph 3(4) of the Schedule amends section 149 of the 2000 Act relating to the reimbursement of operators for travel concessions. The amendment prevents operators from being reimbursed for concessionary fares by local authorities, where the relevant local bus service is franchised or directly provided by the Welsh Ministers under the Bill. Operators will be subject to gross cost contracts under the new model, therefore they will not require reimbursement, as they do not control the farebox. In effect, the operators will not be out of pocket because the Welsh Ministers will be providing the concession in relation to these and the directly provided services.
Paragraph 2(8) of the Schedule amends section 84 of the 1985 Act, which provides the Welsh Ministers with regulation-making powers for compensation for loss of employment as a result of certain disposals or transfers made by public transport companies. The amendment disapplies the powers under that section in relation to local authority companies created under section 67 of the 1985 Act. In Wales, this means Cardiff Bus and Newport Bus. The regulation-making power has been disapplied in relation to Cardiff Bus and Newport Bus, as it is now considered to be largely redundant.
Amendments 20 and 21 make consequential amendments to the 'coming into force' section to account for the insertion of additional provisions. Diolch.
And as with the matters listed in subsection 25(4), officials have given significant consideration, in consultation with TfW, as to the content of the list in sections 27 and 28, to ensure the legislation provided a broad idea, rather than a definitive list, of the type of information that might be required by the public.
We understand, though, why Members have tabled these amendments into the Bill, and I want to reassure them and the committee as a whole that the intention is for the contracts and permits themselves to deal with performance, in accordance with regulations under sections 10(2)(a) and 13(3)(a), which specify 'punctuality, reliability and safety' as matters that may be included in contracts and permits.
I really welcome the intent behind amendments 45 and 46, and I agree that it's important to ensure that Welsh Ministers are receiving and distributing the correct information and in ways that are accessible to all the travelling public. I do need to recommend, however, that Members reject these amendments, primarily on the grounds that existing legislation already requires that public information be made accessible. The Equality Act 2010 makes it unlawful to discriminate against people with disabilities and requires public bodies and service providers to make reasonable adjustments, which include, in certain contexts, providing information in an accessible format like large print or audio recordings when requested.
The Public Sector Bodies (Websites and Mobile Applications) (No. 2) Accessibility Regulations 2018, which came into force for public sector bodies on 23 September 2018, require public sector bodies, such as the Welsh Ministers and local authorities, to make their websites and mobile applications accessible, to the extent that this does not impose a disproportionate burden on them. This means information made available by the Welsh Ministers or local authorities in electronic form about local bus services via websites and apps will already have to conform to certain information accessibility standards. And in addition, section 27(5) of the Bill sets out a requirement for the regulations to make provision on how and when the information is to be made available to the public. The intention is that those regulations will specify that that information, similar to that sought by the amendment, must be published in an accessible format, including in hard copy and electronic format.
Amendment 45 would have the effect of requiring the Welsh Ministers to issue guidance to local authorities and others in relation to exercising their own functions—in this case, sharing information with the public under section 27. As I have already stated, the Welsh Ministers will be responsible for providing information and the regulations will set out how that is to be done. The stakeholders listed in the amendment will be able to contribute to the regulations as part of the consultation process. And so for the reasons I have outlined, I recommend that the committee does not accept amendments 45 and 46. Diolch, Cadeirydd.