Petitions Committee

Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome, everybody, to this first Petitions Committee meeting of the seventh Senedd. I very much welcome everybody's attendance today. As a reminder, the meeting is being broadcast live on Senedd.tv and the Record of Proceedings will be published as usual.

The first item on the agenda today is apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest. Are there any apologies? I think we're all clear and present, which is nice for the first one, so thank you very much for that. There's no subbing. Would any Member like to declare a relevant interest at this point? Okay, very good.

We move very swiftly on to item 2, updates to petitions referred to the seventh Senedd. We start today's formal business with the consideration of some of the nine petitions that were referred to us by the previous sixth Senedd Petitions Committee.

The first one is item 2.1, petition P-06-1582, 'Restore a fair funding route so Welsh students aren't shut out from MT dance degrees in England'. The submitter was Jennifer Capitao, and it currently has 10,585 signatures. Can I invite Sara to discuss the petition and any actions she would like the committee to take?

Thanks, Chair. Firstly, I want to thank Jennifer for her work with this petition. It has obviously received a significant amount and it has gone over the 10,000 threshold. When I was reading the papers, it appeared a little bit complex—it's to do with the funding around students and them wanting to go to this type of college. Obviously, I'm not going to go through everything because we've had the papers and it has come from the previous Senedd. And there was an additional paper that Vikki Howells, when she was Minister, put forward as well. So, there's work that has gone on there.

The option that we've got is whether this goes to a debate. But I also looked and it is on the papers, I think I'm right in saying, for next week for the culture committee. So, that's something I think we need to also consider, because it is going to be discussed there next week, I believe. I think it's important as well that we look at the ones that can go for debate. We'll need to take that into account as well. There are another two that we'll maybe mention, which are 'Ban the tethering of horses and get them help when neglected' and 'Urgent Pembrokeshire Healthcare & Resident Safety—Withybush Hospital & Health Board Intervention'. Both of those have had more signatures than this one. So, I think that's something to bear in mind. Is there anything we need to discuss further as a group at this point?

No. I think it's a pretty good brief. There are no questions from me. I'd certainly be interested in seeing what the culture committee has to say on it before perhaps we make any further decisions.

That was something that I wondered whether the group would be in agreement on.

Are we all agreed? Okay. We'll take that as the action, then, please. Thank you very much. Good job. That's the first one done for this Senedd session.

We'll move on to item 2.2, P-06-1232, 'Stop the proliferation of intensive poultry units (IPUs) by legislating and introduce a moratorium until this can be achieved'. The submitter is Gill Marshall. There are 5,920 signatures—4,338 online and 1,582 on paper. I invite Donna to discuss this petition and any actions she would wish the committee to take.

Thank you, Chair. I'd like to thank Gill Marshall for her petition. It's a very interesting petition. It's a long petition. It has been going through since 18 May 2022 and there's still no resolution with regard to this. Powys County Council are currently looking at 12 applications to be submitted regarding the proliferation of the poultry units. Basically, they've somehow become a hotspot for applications.

'There have been 147 IPU applications granted by PCC. IPUs bring with them many issues including pollution of rivers and land, smell, ammonia, traffic, 24x7 noise and light. To many, the practice of intensive poultry production is cruel and unnecessary.'

However, we've also had an e-mail in from some of those people who are going to be suffering, Richard and Flaves—I don't know if that's the correct pronunciation—Murton. They say:

'The 40,000 chicken farm was proposed by Llys Farm, to be positioned right next door to ourselves, the applicants who live elsewhere have absolutely no concern for the well being of members of our local community.'

We've been given a couple of options that we can take, because, obviously, this would involve Natural Resources Wales, because of the pollution of the rivers. But there are possible options, and the one option that I'm vying for is to write to the new Cabinet Minister for Rural Resilience and Sustainability for a further update on the development of the technical advice. I understand Gill has sent in a late e-mail regarding that issue, and she's waiting on advice as well. So, I would support her wishes and go under option 1. I can read you out option 2 if you wish.

Please.

Option 2 is to refer the petition to the Climate Change, Environment, Sustainability and Rural Affairs Committee for scrutiny. If the petition is referred to another committee without any further correspondence with the Minister by the Petitions Committee, then this committee could then close its consideration of the petition. That wouldn't be my choice. I don't know how other people feel on this issue.

Just in terms of the history, have we got the other side of the coin on this? Has the previous committee done any work in seeing why—

There's a long history. This is the sixth time of it coming to committee, so there is a long history. I think the first time it came for consideration was in October 2022, and it was submitted on 18 May 2022. They had responses received from Powys County Council in November 2022. In December 2022, it was considered for the second time. I just feel something needs to be done regarding this, especially the technical advice note situation. I don't know how other people feel.

It's an item that, from my previous background, I'm quite familiar with. The position is that they have been called in, these dozen, to the Minister already, from the previous Government. Personally, I think what is needed is an update on the position of those that have been called in, especially now there's reference to the new TAN, and where we are with that. However, the point I would suggest is—. I see in option 1, it says Cabinet Minister for Rural Resilience and Sustainability. I would have thought it would have been more appropriate to send the correspondence to the Minister involved with planning, so that would be Siân Gwenllian, rather than to Llyr Huws Gruffydd. Because, at the end of the day, that's where they're sitting at the moment, and that's where the new TAN guidelines would come from, I would suggest.

Okay. So, the Minister for local government. Would you be happy with that?

I'd be happy with that.

Janet did have her hand up.

Janet—sorry. No, we can't hear you.

[Inaudible.]—this is a huge issue. I think this would make for an interesting debate in the Chamber. How many signatures has it had?

It's 5,920.

It doesn't meet the threshold. I think refer it—as Donna said in the first place—to another committee, for them to deal with it. But this is going to keep raising its head. There are those farmers who support all this going on, and then there are those who believe that a lot of the pollution levels that we're experiencing now are coming from these factories of chickens.

Yes, it's an interesting one. On the surface, it does strike me as being rural, but then, when you look into it, it could touch the economy, it could touch the environment, it could touch local planning; there are all these different areas. I think perhaps my point of view would be to get in touch with the rural affairs Minister first—that would be my go-to, just because of the nature of it. But then, as we get into it, perhaps we need to reach out to local government—or can we do both at the same time? Yes.

[Inaudible.]—on the TAN, really, isn't it? Because at the end of the day, there are people who are suffering for these facilities; they're locals, and yet the people who own the facilities aren't locals, so they can't understand what these people are going through. And I feel for them.

Yes, absolutely. So, let's agree to reach out to both Ministers, if you like, and we'll get a response back from both of them at the same time.

I would agree with that.

Happy with that? Okay, very good.

We move on to item 2.3, petition P-06-1464, 'Allow Welsh families who have experienced Baby loss before 24 weeks to obtain baby loss certificate'. The submitter was Angharad Cousins, and it has got 749 signatures. I would like to invite Janet to discuss the petition and any actions.

Thank you. As you've rightly pointed out, it has received 749 signatures; 682 of those came from Wales. The petition was first considered on 4 November 2024, with the committee writing to the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care, asking them when a decision would be made on making baby loss certificates available in Wales. The committee has considered the petition on six occasions, and each time they felt they were close to the point of the certificates being available in Wales. However, there has been a lot of bureaucracy and a lot of delay. It was hoped that there would be a positive outcome by 16 March, but it has now fallen to this committee to take it forward. Wales is now the outlier of the UK with not having these certificates available. If Members recall, in the latest Senedd term, we've had a debate on this, and it was very well supported by all the Members. So, I think that the action should be for us as a committee to write to the new Minister for Health and Care and really push the point now that there is no excuse for us not having these available in Wales.

I don't disagree with anything you said there; I think you're spot on. The last thing these parents need is more bureaucracy after going through something so traumatic. I think we as a committee have to do everything we can to push this through. I don't disagree with any of the actions there—unless anybody else wants to add anything. No. All good. Thank you.

We'll move on to P-06-1573, 'Protect Llanidloes: Stop illegal & dangerous gas and water pollution from Bryn Posteg Landfill now'. The submitter is Xander Ashwell and it has 1,144 signatures. I'd like to invite Vikki to discuss the petition and any actions she'd like the committee to take.

Thank you very much, Chair. This petition was discussed in the last meeting of the previous Petitions Committee. I noted that Joel James MS had said he would leave us a prod for us to consider it in this Senedd term—so he can consider us successfully prodded to do so.

It touches on an issue that the previous committee had considered with a few different landfill sites, but this one in particular has been ongoing for a number of years. Our predecessor committee felt that there was still a lot to be done on this particular petition, even though they'd had a response from the former Deputy First Minister, whose portfolio this fell into. Our predecessor committee agreed to refer it on to us, with a view that we might perhaps like to highlight it with the relevant policy committee and pursue the appropriate Minister with responsibility for landfill operations on all these issues around forever chemicals, water quality and odours.

So, I think there's one course of action that I would like to suggest for us, which is to take it up, first of all, with the new Climate Change, Environment, Sustainability and Rural Affairs Committee. We could ask them to pursue the matters raised by the petition with the Cabinet Minister for Rural Resilience and Sustainability, and I think it would be appropriate for us to do that because I know that committee is looking to bring that Minister in for general scrutiny as soon as possible. That committee is also looking at its forward work plans, so all of these issues around landfill, water pollution and the air quality issues could be something that the committee might wish to consider more broadly, as well as taking up directly with the Minister.

Okay. Excellent. Anybody—? Go on, Elwyn.

[Inaudible.]—I would have is that the previous committee did a similar piece of work on the Hafod tip. They did the final report with a number of recommendations there, which were relevant for all landfill types. I don't know what the procedure is to see whether those recommendations have been acted on and implemented, of which some of them could be relevant to this site.

Yes, okay.

Chair, I think there's definitely that broader issue as well to this particular landfill site, and I think, if we write to the climate change committee, that's certainly something we should point out to them—that there are broad issues here with landfill sites, as well as with this particular one, that the committee might wish to look into in its forward work plan and also raise directly with the Cabinet Minister.

Okay, good. Any further points? No. All agreed. That's a good summary. Thank you very much. We move on now. That completes that agenda section for previous petitions coming into this seventh Senedd.

We now move on to new petitions being considered in the committee for the first time. The first of these petitions was referred from the previous Senedd, because the response from the previous Welsh Government was not received in time for the petition to be considered before the election. So, I'll invite Members to make comment on these petitions as we go through them in turn. However, we've not yet had an opportunity to write to the new Welsh Government on these petitions, or consider its responses, or to share the Government's position with petitioners.

Therefore, in line with the practice adopted by the previous Petitions Committee, I invite Members to agree that the first action on each new petition that has reached 250 signatures for consideration should be to seek a response from the Government or other relevant public body. Are all Members content with that approach? Okay. Thank you very much.

The first one, then: P-07-1548 'Welsh Government to provide fair funding to Cardiff Council to enable essential works on Roath Park Primary'.

'Roath Park Primary, a 130-year-old school, has been covered in scaffolding since 2021 after a piece of the roof fell. Since then, the building has deteriorated further. The scaffolding alone has cost £500k. Classrooms are dark and cold. The pavement is blocked, making drop off/ pick up dangerous. The school is at risk of closure. The council requires adequate funding from Welsh Government in order for it to commit to a timescale to complete the works. The school is at risk of being overlooked until it’s too late.'

And the submitter for that is a Nia O’Donnell, 658 signatures, and I'd like to invite Joe to discuss the petition and any action you wish the committee to take.

So, we'll move on now to agenda item 4, papers to note. Now, these papers do not require decisions or discussions by the committee, but please make it known if you'd like to comment on any of them, and they are in your packs.

So, the first one there is P-06-1521, 'Give park home residents in Wales the right to a water meter'. I invite Members to note the update received during dissolution and shared with the petitioner. This petition is one that was referred to the committee from the sixth Senedd, and so committee consideration remains open. It is proposed Members note this update now, and then return to the petition after the Welsh Government has published the outcome of a Green Paper consulting on reforming water governance in Wales. So, Members to note. Any comments? Okay.

The next one is, P-06-1510, 'Direct NRW to revoke the environmental permit and ensure the closure of Enovert's, Hafod Landfill Site in Wrexham'. I invite Members to note the two letters relating to a closed petition, which have been shared with the petitioner. All noted? Any comments?

Just to say that this touches back to the petition that I introduced to the committee earlier on, and the fact that Elwyn and I both said there is this wider issue around landfill that we would like the climate change and environment committee to consider, and for the Minister to be scrutinised on that as well.

The next section is a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the meeting for the remainder of this meeting, and the committee’s next scheduled meeting on 16 July at 15:00. And that concludes our public business for today.

So, I propose, as matters for discussion relate to the internal business of the committee, that, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42, the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of this meeting, and the following meeting scheduled for 16 July. Are Members content? Thank you. Okay, into private.