Petitions Committee

Good afternoon, everybody. Welcome to the meeting of the Petitions Committee here in the Senedd. Before going into today's formal business, we'd like to welcome Llŷr Powell to the committee, who's been elected in place of Joe Martin. Welcome, Llŷr, and we place on record our thanks to Joe for his dedication to the committee during his time here. As a reminder, the meeting is being broadcast live on Senedd.tv, and the Record of Proceedings will be published as usual. Moving to the agenda, then, the first agenda item today is apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest. I've received no apologies, so it's great to have everybody here and no substitutions, so we are good to go. But I would ask that committee members note any declarations of interest now or at the relevant point during proceedings. Just while we're on this, we are aware that Elwyn is slightly delayed, so he may well be joining midway through the meeting. And if he does, we'll just make a note of that.

Item No. 2, moving on to petitions being considered in the committee for the first time. So, I will invite Members to comment on the petitions as we go through them in turn. Item 2.1, P-07-1583, 'Conduct a feasibility study with regard to reopening Nelson railway station, Caerphilly County'. The petitions reads:

'We call upon you to conduct a feasibility study with regard to reopening Nelson railway station. As a first step, an option to create an express bus service to the nearby railway stations should be explored. The line, which was used by freight trains until recently, runs between Ystrad Mynach railway station and Merthyr Tydfil, passing through Nelson, Trelewis, and Bedlinog. Connecting Nelson to the network would make sense and would ease the pressure on our busy roads.'

The submitter is Aled John. This has received 416 signatures, and I would invite Lyn to discuss the petition and any actions you would wish the committee to take.

I'd like to thank Aled John for this petition. The area is covered by the core Valleys line, since 2020, which the Welsh Government runs. As I can see, there's been previous representation in the rail strategy update in 2013, suggesting that the feasibility of it be looked at to being opened as a train station. So, there's obviously an agenda there that has been considered. I'm not too overly convinced by the fact that they feel that there are not enough passengers to be able to generate the train station, because I'm going to give a comparison of the Ebbw Vale line. Again, when that was in progress, they suggested that would never have passenger numbers. Then, when they did get to the level where it came on board, the passenger numbers were absolutely astronomical, to the point that they were doubled. So, to me, to suggest that the numbers are not there doesn't make sense, when we can point straight away to another area that has been successful, to the point where it's now a double line, and instead of hourly trips, it does half-hourly trips, and it goes into Newport and Cardiff.

So, for me, I would like to think that we need to look a little more in depth into this to justify the fact that it has been on the agenda previously, that figures are not always accurate, as I can allude to with the Ebbw Vale line. So, for me, I would be recommending that we keep this open, have a look at the fast passenger express bus as well. But I do feel this needs to go on to try and get more information, so I would recommend it is to stay open.

Okay. Thank you. Any other comments on this one? Just from my perspective, I think I completely agree. It lines up with the Government approach to try and get people onto more public transport, and the only way we're going to be successful in that is if they have the infrastructure there to be able to use it. So, this lines up well with that. So, I think we keep it open, but I would request that we write to the Deputy Minister to revisit the business case and just get updated numbers, to see if there is more of a financial imperative to spending that money on the line. Okay, that's the agreement. Anyone else want to come in?

Only to say that I support that as well. Again, like you said, I'm also of the opinion that numbers aren't always there. You've also got to look a bit deeper into that and make our Valleys a bit more connected to things. So, I'm in agreement and I want that on the record. Thank you very much.

Okay, thank you. So, to confirm, we'll keep it open, write to the Deputy Minister requesting a revision or another look at the business case to support that station.

Okay, moving on to item 2.2, P-07-1600, 'Establish One National Health Board for Wales and Empower County Hospitals'.

'For three decades, healthcare services across Wales have declined. Departments have closed or been downgraded, maternity, mental health, and specialist services centralised or removed, and waiting times have grown intolerably. In some counties, provision has reached "ground zero", where timely access to essential care cannot be guaranteed. We have no confidence in the current multi-board structure, which has created inconsistency, duplication, remote decision-making and weak accountability. Wales is a small nation and should not face postcode inequality in healthcare.'

The submitter is Hayley Suzanne Wood, and it's got 1,034 signatures. I invite Vikki, as Elwyn's backup, to discuss the petition and take any actions you wish.

Thank you, Chair. We know there are seven health boards in Wales, which were established under the National Health Service (Wales) Act 2006, and each of those boards are responsible for the planning, commissioning and provision of local healthcare services to address those local needs. Now, this petition advocates replacing the current arrangements with a single national health board, combined with greater autonomy for local hospitals.

The committee previously wrote to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care, who acknowledged that the NHS in Wales is not where we would all want it to be. But in their response, the Minister also refuted the notion of structural change, noting, and I quote from that correspondence:

'While I understand the desire to simplify structures and strengthen local accountability, such an approach is not possible within the current legislative framework and could carry significant risks.'

The Minister did acknowledge the concerns expressed in the petition regarding the consistency, accountability and variation in the service provision, but they also noted the importance of local health boards, as they see it, being able to reflect differing population health needs, and the geography, demographics and workforce challenges that vary across Wales.

The petitioner has reviewed the Minister's response, and our petitioner says that the petition is calling for meaningful structural reform of NHS governance in Wales, not another review of individual services within the existing system. And the petitioner also stresses that the fact that the seven health boards were established by legislation is not, in itself, a reason to maintain the status quo.

So, our petitioner has two requests for us—for the Welsh Government, really: to commission an independent assessment of the costs, benefits and risks of establishing one national health board for Wales; and to explain why legislative changes to health service structures should not be considered. So, I think there are two possible actions for us as a committee to consider today. The first thing is that if, as a committee, we're not persuaded by the need to review the current structure of health boards in Wales, we could thank the petitioner for raising the issue and close our consideration of the petition. Another thing we could do, though, is to seek the Senedd research service's assistance in providing some information to us on the different structures established elsewhere for the provision of health services, and their relative strengths and weaknesses. And that's something that we could then consider at a future meeting. I personally always think, in all committee work, it's good to look at examples from not just across the UK, but around the world about service delivery. So, I personally would be happy for us to look at that, and then come back to this at another meeting.

Okay, thank you very much. Good brief. Janet.

Thanks for unmuting me. I'm sorry to play Tommy Opposite here. We all know that our health system in Wales is failing. We, as a party, and I, as a member of this committee over the years, have called for external reviews, internal reviews, independent reviews. I'm situated as a Member, an elected Member, with one of the worst health boards, and that's no secret. Three of the hospitals there are among the worst hospitals, and it is regularly raised in the Senedd.

Now, we do have a health and care committee. I don't believe that we have the knowledge in the Petitions Committee to be able to decide, 'Right, we need just one health board.' As I've maintained, when we had more health boards, and then we went down to seven—. It is felt that the Betsi board itself is too big. As for having one all-Wales health board, I can fully understand the Minister urging caution over this, because we're in such a health crisis now. Patients are missing cancer waiting times. We had a big, powerful debate yesterday that Reform called on prostate cancer—a huge issue.

We've got too many problems bubbling up all over the place. I think that, at the moment, our focus—the Government's focus and the Minister's focus—needs to be on bringing those waiting times down, making the current structure we've got work. No-one knows what a restructure to one health board would cost to do, to put in place or, in fact, to maintain going forward.

I genuinely think that we should genuinely thank the petitioner, because, a result of you bringing this petition forward, we're able to endorse a lot of what you believe. But I genuinely do believe that a major restructure down to one health board would need a proper business case behind it. It would take months, if not years, and I think that we need to divert our energies and the Government's energies to sorting out the problems that exist, and I think that we should bring this petition to an end.

Okay, thank you. Anyone else want to come in? Sara.

I don't mind adding that I'm a little bit conflicted between the two there. I think that they were really good inputs, and I wonder—. I'm not sold on the fact that one health board would be the answer for Wales, but I would be keen to see what other models could be in play. So, can I ask, and this might be my naivety of being new to the committee: by doing the second option of looking at the research, would that only look at one model, or would that give us variations of different models that we could then come back and discuss? Or is it solely one, or as we are?

It's whatever we want it to be. Now, I take Janet's point that we are not experts in this field, but we are the access points for the petitioner to get access to those experts. I would rather have more information, or gather more information, and then discuss what we have, rather than close it off at this point. That is my view.

I think that if there are better structures—and I'm not saying that one health board is the magic pill to solve all the NHS's issues; there could be a variation of different things that we haven't considered before—professionals in the field might have those answers. I think that if we referred out, perhaps to the health committee, and requested some more information from the health Minister as to whether he's looking at these additional options and what they are, that would probably give us a bit more information that we could pass back to the petitioner.

I agree.

Agree?

Yes, I'm of a similar mindset, where I think that more information is better. It's not the first time I've heard the request of one health board, whether it's with constituents or people in wider fields. So, maybe having the answers to go back to more people is the best thing. It was a theme yesterday in the Chamber, I think most Members will recall, that everyone was talking about a postcode lottery when it comes to the health system. So, if there's more information, and maybe we could highlight something for other committees to look at, that's the best thing to go forward.

Okay, thank you. Just for the Members online, I've just been asked if I could remind you to put your physical hand up should you wish to speak rather than the Teams hand, because it affects the broadcast, I'm told. So, thank you very much for that.

So, to summarise this debate, I think that we're going to keep it open, request further information from the Minister as to how he's minded in terms of a potential restructure of the NHS in Wales, and also refer out to the health committee to see what work they've done in this area, and then we'll revisit this once we've got those pieces of information back. Are we all happy with that? Okay. Perfect. Thank you.

Moving on, then, item 2.3, 'Protect Community Buildings and Ensure Transparency in High-street Redevelopment in Wales'.

'Across Wales, many towns and villages are losing historic community buildings such as pubs and high-street venues through redevelopment or conversion to large HMOs. These buildings often form an important part of local identity and social life. Residents frequently only become aware of proposals once formal notices are posted. The Welsh Government should strengthen planning policy to protect community buildings and ensure clearer transparency and consultation when major changes are proposed.'

The submitter is Barrie Murphy. This has 285 signatures, and I invite Lyn to discuss the petition and any actions she wishes the committee to take.

I'd like to thank Barrie for his petition. Unfortunately, we are in this position at the moment where our properties are being redeveloped in our communities and in our town centres. Years ago, when we used to have the coaches and the horses, most of these properties did have housing attached to it where people would stay overnight, and different things. These buildings do lend themselves to being redeveloped and enlarging our communities.

What I would look to do on this one is close it, but I think the fact that we've got some future work coming through from Ministers in regard to planning and the requirements of community ownership coming into play, I think there'll be opportunities in the future where, you know, if villages and mindsets are to keep these buildings, those opportunities are coming down the line.

I agree where he's trying to talk about not enough notice, but, again, that's up to the person who owns the property. You can't make somebody tell you something they don't need to. And then the planning process is the planning process; you get it notified on the lampposts, and, any near neighbours, they are being notified.

So, at this present moment, I think, looking forward to the fact that we will be looking at the community ownership plan in the future, and we are looking at planning reviews, in this instance, because, when I dug into this to see the actual pub and tried to have a look at the document, it looks like it's been withdrawn at the moment—I think I'm on the right one, because there was no application number attached to it. So, on this occasion, I would close, given the fact that this thing's come in that would help this person in the future.

Okay. Thank you very much.

I note that Elwyn has joined us. Hi, Elwyn. Thanks very much.

Yes, I'd agree. Anybody else want to come in on this? Are we content to close? Okay. Thank you, then, Lyn. We agree with your recommendation and move to close this petition.

Moving on, item 2.4, 'North Wales needs a 50 metre swimming pool'.

'Currently swimmers from north Wales need to travel to either south Wales or England to access a 50 metre swimming pool which is unfair and also loses the revenue that tourism can bring.

'To create an inclusive Wales and stop the significant divide in opportunities between north and south Wales, there should be at least one 50m pool in the north. And more 3G and 4G pitches.

'This will allow equal opportunities for children and aspiring athletes to train and compete at the highest level.'

The submitter is George Ryan, with 554 signatures, and I invite Elwyn to discuss the petition and any actions he wishes the committee to take.

Thank you, and apologies, Chair, for being late; the joys of the A470.

Yes, as has just been noted, basically, there's a request for a new pool facility in north Wales. In the discussion papers, I note in particular the response from the Minister about the audit of existing resources that are in existence, and I think also what struck me is a response from the Minister for culture in September, noting that 30 per cent of swimming pools are at risk of closure over the next 10 years and the substantial upkeep costs involved with these facilities. We have to bear in mind also, as we are well aware, that the revenue costs for this next financial year are not going to be any better and, therefore 'it is highly unlikely' is the message I'm seeing from Ministers, and I think that's the reality anyway of seeing such a facility being developed in the short term.

However, there is mention of wider facilities in terms of 3G and 4G pitches. And it is something I'm well aware of, actually, in my own area, about the need for them, and I'm well aware that the FAW is doing work and has invested in such facilities in other places. Therefore, I think the only relevant course of action is perhaps that we can ascertain from the Football Association of Wales what the situation is in north Wales and any other opportunities to perhaps expand on what already exists. Diolch.

Okay. Thank you very much. Would anybody else like to come in on this? Janet.

It would help if I could be unmuted, because sometimes I am and sometimes I'm not. Right.

I've just done some homework on this. So, in Llandudno pool, which is a very busy pool, we've got a swimming centre there with a 25m, eight-lane competition pool, and a 24-lane family pool. It's used and was upgraded about 15, 18 years ago at great expense. I take the points that Elwyn has made about the likelihood—. I would like to thank the petitioner, though, because, again, we all have that appetite for building on our recreation facilities.

You mentioned 3G and 4G pitches. We've just had one now put in a local Welsh school, a Welsh-medium school. They've now got a fantastic, I think, 4G or 5G pitch, but it's certainly all-singing, all-dancing. The opposition to that, however, was—. Well, it became quite a hot topic, because there's one just up the road at Llandrillo technical college. Now ,again, I don't know whether this petitioner, when they say 'north Wales'—. As far as Bangor Conwy Môn is concerned, we do have a good share of these 3G and 4G pitches. So, I would question the need for this—I suppose they call it an Olympic-sized swimming pool. And if you can just remind me, Elwyn, what did you want to do as far as the petition is concerned, did you say?

Well, my suggestion is that we contact the FAW to ask for clarification about the number and the location of these pitches, the 3G and 4G, in north Wales, and if there are any obvious gaps in that provision.

Yes, I think that would be a good move forward.

To confirm, do you want to keep the petition open or closed while we undertake that process, because it's almost a separate issue, isn't it—the swimming pool closure to the FAW one?

Yes. Personally, regarding the swimming pool, I think that we close that aspect because I can't see that happening in the current situation.

Yes, okay, and I'd agree. The only other comment I'd really have on it is that I was quite staggered by the £400 million backlog for maintenance of existing pools. That is seriously concerning. Perhaps that's something we can raise outside of this process. But, in terms of this petition's requirements, I'm happy to close, but, equally, to write to the FAW to ask about the position of 3G and 4G pitches across Wales. And I will give the previous Government a rare bit of credit in their work on 3G and 4G facilities, because they did seem to spring up all over the place, which is really good to see. And I hope we see the fruits of that investment in our national teams over the next few years, because, my word, don't we need it? So, yes, absolutely, let's close the petition, but continue to write to the FAW to establish the 3G and 4G pitches, if we're all agreed. Okay. Brilliant. Thank you very much.

Moving on, then, to P-07-1584, 'Declare a Welsh national health emergency'.

'Wales is in a Health Emergency. Ambulance delays leave patients in danger. Treatments are postponed for years. GP and dentist shortages deny families basic care. Waiting lists remain extremely high. Hospitals are cutting services. Staff shortages are severe. Health boards are in deficit, forcing communities to travel further. Urgent action is needed.'

The submitter is Joy Jones, with 417 signatures. I invite Llŷr to discuss the petition and any actions he wishes the committee to take.

I thank the petitioner for submitting it. It's something I think a lot of us recognise and we get a lot of feedback on. It's very broad in terms of what the petition is calling for, in terms of a health crisis. There are very specific areas it's asking us to look at in terms of the NHS: dental practice, GP services, A&E, and ambulance response. I note the Minister did respond to the committee and the petition and does acknowledge the landscape that is painted and is saying that they're not entirely happy with the current outcomes, but he's working hard to address that. Some of the issues that are in this are something we raise quite often as Members ourselves. So, it would be my recommendation that the committee is content with the response from the Minister and we do look to close the petition.

Okay. Thank you very much. Any other comments from committee members? No. Okay. We'll move to close that one and thank the petitioner for raising it. We do understand the issue; it is brought up time and time again in the Chamber. It's more of a political topic, perhaps, which we hope will be addressed during the term. But in terms of a petition, I think there's only a certain amount that we can do and perhaps this isn't the right forum for that. So, we'll move to close. Thank you.

Moving on, P-07-1637, 'Require list-elected MSs to vacate their seat if they leave the party that elected them'.

'Voters choose a political party and its list of candidates.

'If an MS elected from that list leaves the party, they can currently keep the seat and join another party without voters having another say.

'We believe that if a list-elected MS leaves the party they were elected for, the seat should pass to the next eligible candidate from the original list.'

The submitter is Christopher Blackwood, with 3,307 signatures, from Fflint Wrecsam. I'm going to invite Janet to discuss the petition and any actions she wishes the committee to take.

Thank you. Well, there's some irony here, isn't there? During the sixth Senedd, we were given assurances, really, about the new voting system, the extra 36 Members and how it would tighten things up, and, in reality, that part of the legislation didn't come through. Now, I understand the frustrations because I have it in my own constituency. They're still confused, having six Members in a constituency. And the number of e-mails I've had over a recent defection—. It is odd that you're voted in—. When we were all there, at the count, we were voted in. I was voted in as a Conservative. If I chose to go to another party, I genuinely think, then, that the list should move up and the person is not able to just think, 'Oh, I'm going to use the political party and then I can look across the Chamber and see if they'll have me'. And I think we need to—. That said, will this petition succeed in bringing that about? I don't think so.

I'm very grateful to the petitioner for bringing it forward because, if he hadn't brought it forward, we wouldn't be having this discussion now, and I admire the amount of signatures he's got as well in a short time, which tells me that I'm not the only one who thinks there's something not quite right there yet with the voting system. But there is a review going on now of the voting system—they said they would after the last election—and I think it might be worth the petitioner making representations to their elected Members so that whoever is on the committee, the review panel, know the feeling. You've obtained 3,000 plus signatures, which tells us there are other people who feel like I do.

Now, I think, if the petitioner was kind enough to trust us, that—. This will be an ongoing issue, I can assure you. There's the work of this review panel to finish what its mandate will be and we might be able to look at it. But it has been brought in, the current system, by legislation, so it's whether a petition will be able to influence it, but you can if you engage with the review panel. Now, Chair, can you help me out here, or maybe our clerk: will there be scope in this review panel for people to speak to their Members about the views?

Yes, absolutely. So, the motion to establish the review must be laid within the first six months, and I believe that timeline is closing within the next few weeks. I would imagine the committee will be set up and we'll be asked to speak directly to it. I would encourage petitioners and members of the public to write with their views to their MSs, and for those views to be reflected using this process. While it has been quite an effective petition, I'm just cautious that we don't duplicate the work.

I therefore propose we close the petition, but in doing so, really thank the petitioner. I'm grateful to them for bringing it forward.

Yes, I'd agree with that. Happy? Yes.

Like you said, I agree that a lot of people don't understand the new system. They don't know if you have to go to all six, or if you can choose. That hasn't been clear to the electorate. There have been parties in the past, and in the present, that have lost and gained from this situation. My understanding is that we went towards a change, but this was the best worst change. It doesn't quite make sense as it is. So, I hope we do get the opportunity to debate this. Are we clear that that will be laid before the deadline? Do we know that that is happening? It is. Then I'm happy to proceed as agreed.

Perfect. So, thank you to the petitioner. We'll write to them, but we'll close petition on this occasion and follow up with the debate, through the committee, to review the new electoral arrangements.

Now we move on to updates on petitions previously considered by the committee. We've got P-06-1521, 'Give park home residents in Wales the right to a water meter'. The submitter is Sam Swash, with 620 signatures. I invite Janet to discuss the petition and any actions she would wish the committee to take.

Thank you. In what I think might have been my first term or my second term, a park homes Bill came into force, because, at that time, park home owners were being exploited. I remember Peter Black did a lot of work on this Bill that came through. I've got to be honest, I was so relieved after it came into force, but for a very short length of time. I don't know if any of you other Members have park homes. We're not talking about caravan parks here, we're talking about mobile homes—you know, park homes—and they are in an unfortunate position with their utilities. But I have complaints coming in all the time, and it's one particular park, but I've got quite a few parks in Bangor Conwy Môn.

There's exploitation going on without any doubt. You have a situation where water bills are coming in on an individual basis to park home owners, and they are astronomical. If you read the notes we've been provided, what happens is that if there's a leak on the park, and this particular park has open pipes running, so if a car drives over one and puts a split in it, that starts leaking, that then ups the bill. The residents are charged with the additional cost. It's unfair. It's the same with electricity and a lot of other utility bills. We get complaints about lack of maintenance on these park homes. It seems that the be-all and-end all is to get somebody in a park home. The biggest exploitation is when these people come to sell the park home, because, quite often, they get very little equity back. When they buy them, they could probably buy a house for that price. But 10, 15 years later, when they come to sell it, the prices they're offered are disgusting.

We'll move to item 4 of the agenda, which is papers to note. Today there's only one paper to note. There are no decisions or discussion by the committee, but please make it known if you would like to comment on it. The one document here is correspondence to me as Chair from Andrew R.T. Davies regarding a Plenary debate on a petition challenging the greyhound racing ban in Wales. Would anybody like to make comment on that? Okay. Noted. Thank you.

Item 5 is a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the meeting. That concludes the public business. I propose that, as matters for discussion next relate to the internal business of the committee, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42, the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? Thank you.