Culture, Communications, Cymraeg and Sport Committee

Welcome to today's meeting of the Culture, Communications, Cymraeg and Sport Committee. The position of Chair of this committee is shared between me and Lis McLean MS, and I will be chairing the meeting today. The public items of this meeting are being broadcast live on Senedd.tv, and the Record of Proceedings will be published as usual. This meeting is bilingual, and simultaneous translation is available from Welsh to English. We have received apologies from the Member of the Senedd Lis McLean, and could I ask now if there are any declarations of interest from Members before we get started? No. Nothing to note or to declare.

Welcome, everyone, to the ministerial scrutiny session with the Cabinet Minister for Culture and Sport, Heledd Fychan. Welcome. Today is an opportunity for the committee to hold its first scrutiny session with the new Cabinet Minister for Culture and Sport in the seventh Senedd. And because this is the Minister's first appearance before this committee in her new role, it will be an opportunity for us to discuss the work that has been completed to date, including the first 100 days commitments and the priorities for the rest of the Senedd term.

So, I'd like to welcome our witnesses here today to this scrutiny session. I'd like to invite you to introduce yourselves, starting with the Minister, but I will also note that, on the agenda, it does say that Jason Thomas will be with us here today, but Joedi Langley is joining us instead. I'll let you introduce yourself in a second. I'll ask the Minister to start. Thanks.

Thank you very much. I'm delighted to be here. I'm Heledd Fychan, Cabinet Minister for Culture and Sport. If I could ask officials to introduce themselves, starting with Elin.

I'm Elin Burns, director of culture, sport, heritage and the Welsh language.

Good afternoon. Steffan Roberts, deputy director, arts and sport.

Good afternoon. Joedi Langley, deputy director, Creative Wales.

Thank you very much to you all, and welcome. Minister, before we move into questions from Members, I'd like to invite you to make a short opening statement. Thanks.

Thank you very much, Chair. And first of all, congratulations to you all on being elected to this committee. I have to say, it's a very different experience being on this side of the table as compared to being a member of this committee, and I was reflecting on the sixth Senedd legacy report. And as I contributed to this, I now have the task of trying to implement many of the recommendations made by the committee. I want to make it clear that I welcome scrutiny. I think it's a key role in terms of our democracy, and I do recognise the important role that you will have in terms of holding me to account. I'm also looking forward to contributing to and reflecting on your inquiries over the coming years, and I very much hope that we will have a constructive relationship.

You will be aware as a committee that the situation that we've inherited is challenging. Years of underinvestment have left their mark on the workforce and in terms of the state of many of our historic and arts buildings and sporting facilities too. And although progressive and excellent work is being done in these sectors that does gain international repute, this can sometimes hide how fragile and vulnerable these sectors are in reality, and that's why I am prioritising creating a long-term strategy, in order to ensure that there is a plan in place to put that right. This is because we as a Government do recognise the importance of culture and sport in terms of our national identity, but also recognise their economic value and their contribution to making improvements to health and well-being. I'm sure many of you will have seen some of the highlights of this summer, from the Eisteddfod celebrating its eight hundred and fiftieth anniversary to the Wales team at the Commonwealth Games and also the film Effi o Blaenau. There's a great deal to celebrate.

You will have seen in the update that we have completed all of the 100 days commitments in terms of this portfolio, and I look forward to receiving your questions on that. But it is worth noting that this work on the strategy is the first time that we've brought culture, sports and the creative industries together as one. I do think that that accords with some of the recommendations of your predecessor committee, which was very critical of the fact that the creative industries weren't part of the culture strategy. So, we want to put that right.

Nofio Ysgol, the school swimming programme, will now be implemented in nine local authorities. There is work on establishing a shadow broadcasting and communications authority for Wales. There is additional funding for the Arts Council of Wales for capital investment and also to support local museums, archives and libraries. So, with 100 days done, I am now moving on to the rest of the manifesto commitments and, as I said, I look forward to working with you as a committee to progress this work. There are challenges facing us without a doubt, but there is a very real opportunity to unlock the potential of culture and sport.

Thank you very much, and thank you once again for the written evidence for this session. I'll just start with an opening question before opening up the floor to the rest of the Members.

Your written evidence for our session today describes the Government's ambition to see culture, heritage and sports at the heart of our nation and at the heart of this Government's work. How will we be able to measure whether you have realised that ambition before the end of this Senedd? What do you think the possible yardsticks could be in terms of measuring the impact of that?

Well, I hope that this committee will have a part to play in helping me to develop those. Work has commenced. Clearly, we've started consultation on the new strategy now. We're asking those who work in the sector to express their views too. What was frustrating when I was in your seat was the lack of performance indicators. We had seen a number of statements of support, but it was impossible then to measure progress against those and to hold the Government to account on them.

So, we don't have those yardsticks in place at the moment, but that work is progressing, because one of the very challenging things that I have inherited is a lack of data and a lack of information in relation to these sectors. So, a great deal of work in these early days, in the first 100 days, has gone into understanding where Government investment is going, what is the value for money achieved, what is the impact of that investment, and also where the gaps exist.

So, I don't have a full picture at the moment, and I do think it's crucially important that we have that full picture, so that those yardsticks that we do have will be the right ones and meaningful. I could state some of them now, but without knowing what the baseline is and what that data is, it's very difficult for us to put specific measures in place.

Thank you very much. I'll invite other Members to ask questions to the Minister. Is there anyone—? Yes, Paul. Thank you very much.

Thank you very much, Chair. I wanted to ask you some questions on the culture strategy, but, first of all, I wanted to ask you about your commitment in the Plaid Cymru manifesto, because in the Plaid Cymru manifesto before the election there was a commitment to introduce a culture Bill, but I don't see a commitment to do that in the Government's legislative programme. What is the situation at the moment?

In the manifesto, it said that we would look into such a Bill, and I am very open-minded in terms of whether we need to introduce a Bill or not. One of the things that has been fed back to me, and it's one of the things that this committee reflected on in scrutinising the future generations commissioner, was that you could spend quite a bit of time developing this Bill, but if you don't have the resource in order to be able to safeguard that statutory element, then what would a Bill truly achieve? So, as the work goes ahead on the strategy, we also want to look at the value of legislating on this, because you have to have a purpose for legislating, in my view.

One of the things that I've been very concerned about, if we were to only focus on getting that Bill in place, is that we have seen local libraries closing, even though they have a statutory footing, and I don't believe that just making something statutory gives us that long-term assurance that the investment and the services will continue. So, it isn't that it's disappeared completely—it is part of the work that is being done—but I think there are some priorities at the moment, for example the critical state of some of our historical buildings and so on, or the workforce, and we have to address those things, and, with the resources that we have, I think that I do have to put the emphasis on understanding that first before looking at such a Bill.

So, you don't currently know whether you'll introduce a Bill or not, but when will you be in a position to tell us whether you will or will not introduce such a Bill?

Well, I want to hear the view of this committee as well, because the view of this committee previously was that there was no certainty that we did need it, so I would hope that this would be one of the elements of the work that perhaps we could work together on. I am truly open-minded in terms of the need for a Bill or not. I do see the need for a strategy to begin with as crucially important before then looking at legislating. So, I'm very happy—. I've been very transparent with you about this. We need to prioritise getting that strategy and the measures in place first, I think, before we move forward to legislating. I would see that more as something to happen in the second half of this Senedd term.

You referred to statutory services in your response, and I know that you're looking at options to make cultural provision a statutory requirement for public bodies. When will be in a position to know whether the Government will do that or not?

It is very early days in that regard. The only thing that I am very certain of is that I know we need to get a strategy in place as soon as possible, that those measures are the rights ones, and that we can then work together on this. Because some of these changes—. If you think about the cuts that have happened, they have happened over 15 years. That deterioration has happened over 15 years. Some of the solutions will not be easy ones and they will not be able to happen overnight. So, the way that we're going about it to get that baseline, to know in a more strategic way—. I'm sorry that I can't give you some completely certain answers at the moment, because it's a very live process.

I accept, of course, that you're consulting when it comes to this culture strategy, and I think that that consultation is to close in mid December. So, in your view at the moment, what should be the Government's general vision for culture, and what outcomes should a strategy aim towards achieving for the sake of communities and, indeed, individuals?

I think it's very clear that we need long-term investment and long-term certainty for a number of our institutions. One of the things that I've heard from local bodies on the ground, and national bodies, is how challenging it is not knowing what the financial situation will be from year to year, not knowing whether there will be capital funding available, because some of the amounts of money that need to be invested are enormous. And I think trying to work together and to provide that certainty in terms of how we're going to ensure that they don't, every year, have to restructure, for example—. Because the reality for a number of these bodies over the past years has been spending most of their time trying to look at the resources that they have, and the staffing structure, rather than being able to invest or develop, raise income, and so on.

So, in terms of that work, I think that it is incredibly important that we are in a situation, during this Senedd term, to give that certainty and assurance to them. I was always getting fed up when I was sitting in your seats here of hearing Ministers saying, 'We have to move towards a preventative agenda. We have to have a better connection between the health service and the arts, sports and culture.' And the steps that we've been taking now are discussions with health, discussions with education, in terms of how we can ensure that culture, the arts and their real potential do permeate through every portfolio.

Now, that isn't easy, and I can understand why some Ministers said, 'We'll start that next year, and we'll start that next year', and so on. But I think we've reached the point now where we have to start looking at it seriously. And even if it takes two years for us to reach a point where we can see that movement happening in real terms, and those indicators, we need to do that spadework now, and we need to do it right too. Because, I'd be able to come here and make commitments, but they have to really mean something if they're going to realise that proper change.

I accept, of course, that you as a Government want to consult with the public on the culture strategy. But once that consultation comes to an end, how will the Government show that the public's view has had an influence on the final strategy, and what opportunities will there be for ongoing public participation in its implementation?

Well, hopefully, this will be the strategy that will be owned by communities across Wales. They will see why we believe that culture, sports and the creative industries are important, because that hasn't always been the message coming from Governments in the past either. So, I hope that people, from the fact that we are consulting and that we truly want to hear their opinions—. I have asked to have a copy of everything that comes in, and I want to read all of that personally, because I want to hear what the challenges people are facing and what their frustrations are on the ground. And that has come through very clearly in the visits that I've already made.

People are frustrated. The lack of investment in the past has meant that resources that were valued by communities have just closed down. So, hopefully, by being able to see that there is a long-term vision, long-term investment, that we are looking to work together with communities, that will give people that certainty that there is a future for these areas across our communities. We won't be able to do everything at once, and I think that's why being honest with people is going to be an important part of this too.

And once you've heard the views of the public, how will you, as a Government, then decide what cultural priorities should receive investment? What criteria will you use to make those decisions?

Well, we are looking at the next steps now in thar regard. The call for evidence is happening at the same time as we're looking at the framework and the mechanisms that are needed. So, that work does align with that and, hopefully, this will be an ongoing dialogue between us, as a Government, and you, as a committee, as well. I'm sure that you will have recommendations to make to me as part of this process as well.

And do you have a timetable for this strategy now? When do you expect to see the strategy being launched?

Well, I would like to see that happening as soon as possible, and I am pushing my officials on that now, in terms of that timetable. I haven't—

But you don't have a timetable at all?

There is a draft timetable and, obviously, the first element of that will be reporting back, with some draft documents in the next spring. I want to make that happen faster in the future because what I'm hearing from sectors on the ground and on a national level is, 'We know what some of these solutions are; we just need the Government to be clear on their commitments.' So, in terms of trying to get something as soon as possible, clearly we need something that is very thorough and comprehensive, and that's why that work is happening, but we're also building on the work that happened previously. The indicators are the main thing that we have to focus on now.

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you. Thank you very much. I do have a few questions following on from the comments that you've just made. In terms of participation, in practical terms, how will the Government ensure that the consultation and the strategy reach those people who perhaps don't currently participate in sports and cultural activities, particularly children and young people, people from low-income backgrounds, or communities where there are geographical barriers, rather than just supporting those who are already engaging?

Yes, that is a point that is central to all of this. We're also looking at the research that already exists. A number of our national bodies have already done quite a bit of research work on this. A number of universities have done research in terms of the barriers. We know that things like the cost of transport can be a barrier, or the location of some of our museums and whether there is public transport to those locations. That is known, in terms of St Fagans, for example, where there is no consistent bus service to there, and you need a car to go to a number of these places. If you think about Big Pit, for example, it's very challenging to reach that site if you don't have a car.

So, there are a number of barriers here that we are aware of. We are, clearly, also going to be reaching out to groups who are working successfully in these areas, working with different youth forums and different parts of our organisations. So, this is going to be very important.

Sioned Williams and I, in her role as well, in terms of social justice and work on the child poverty strategy, will be working together because we know the challenges in terms of the cost of participating in sports, for example. There is a lot of research that has shown the barriers that exist, in terms of, if you can't afford sports kit, for example, and what will that mean in terms of participation, or being able to reach games on the weekends if your parents don't have a car, and so on.

So, there is a lot of work that we are building on, and central to the whole strategy is ensuring that everyone has the opportunity to participate in a real way.

Thank you very much. You've already referred to the cuts and, perhaps, underinvestment that there's been in culture and sport by previous Governments, leaving the sector in a very vulnerable position. Can you explain whether that ambition of increasing investment over the Senedd term means a real-terms increase above inflation? And what steps would you take to move Wales closer to investment levels in comparable European countries?

Well, one of the things I've asked my officials to work on with institutions that receive funding is understanding what is the true investment needed by our institutions—not what they can do with the money that they have, but what they actually do need, and also what the impact of having that money would be. Because it's not just about increasing investment; it's also about ensuring that that benefit goes to the people of Wales, and one of the challenges I've heard is that, for example, some institutions can't afford to employ people to fundraise or to get donations and so on. That creates an even more challenging situation. So, certainly, the ambition is to ensure that our national institutions and institutions on the ground in these areas have the funding that they need and the funding that they deserve. I think the work that was done by this committee during the sixth Senedd, which showed where we were compared to other European countries in terms of investment and funding, shows how behind we are.

I'm also aware, having spoken to these bodies and having met with them, that there are also challenges then in terms of how you increase the workforce over time with more funding and so on. I don't think, in terms of these sectors, that it's just an issue of more investment from the Government, and we are looking now into how we can look at alternative budgets or getting budgets to work in a more effective way.

If I could give you an example in terms of schools, we know that there has been investment in schools. Often, when that happens, there are new playgrounds or leisure centres built and so on, but sometimes I've heard, for example, from a football association, 'If there are no floodlights, then what's the point of having that investment for the community if they can't use it in the winter, or if the gates are closed during the holidays or on weekends?' So, looking cross-portfolio at things and thinking, 'Well, if there is investment in a school, what does that then mean for the local community and participation and access?', we're trying to look at it in a more strategic way, even with the money that we do have, so that that investment is there, because, for example, maybe the floodlights would come under my portfolio and that conversation wouldn't have happened. So, I think, if we look at every project from the start and look at, 'Right, this is a new school, but what is the benefit for the community as well?', and look at joint budgets right from the start, that investment will be a lot more strategic.

Thank you very much. Any other Members want to come in? Nick Carter.

Just one quick question—[Inaudible.] I know you've been around to see all the bodies that are getting funding from you in the 100 days. I just wondered: do you have an idea of how many of those still get funding annually, or whether they are now getting more longer term funding? Is that something that we can look to change, so that they can be more confident in getting their money for the longer term?

Currently, it is going from year to year. There are huge challenges for some of our arm's-length bodies in the way that pay settlements aren't automatically awarded to them either. So, that's a constant dialogue with Government, so it creates a lot of uncertainty. Part of trying to address that now is having those active conversations. There's been a nervousness from some of our organisations of disclosing to me the true challenges that they face; there's a fear that they may be punished by Government by being too honest. So, part of those initial conversations has been trying to encourage people to be truly honest with me about the challenges that they're facing, that we want to address them collectively with them, being honest—if someone's going to ask for a 50 per cent increase in budget next year, that's not going to be possible at this point in time—but also coming to us early if there are problems emerging for us to try and address them together, and being clear in the expectations. I've seen remit letters to our national organisations in the past that would have so many things that we're expecting them to do but with no further money. I think that's a live conversation as well, about what's realistic to expect when they have certain things that they have to do in terms of responsibility for the national collections and so on. And also, when we look at new investments, when we have such challenges already in our, maybe, museums or national library et cetera, we have to look at that balance, because there's always that temptation sometimes for Ministers to invest in the new, whereas, actually, developing the resilience of some of our national treasures has been neglected. So, those are the kinds of live conversations at the moment.

But, in general, do we have an ambition to try to get the funding streams on a firmer footing and on a longer period of time to give people more time to adjust and, basically, not waste money so much, I suppose?

Definitely, because I think some of the things have been as well—. I've heard of projects mentioned in terms of 'shovel-ready projects' because money has suddenly become available. And that might not be an organisation's priority in terms of what it needs, but it's what it can spend within that financial year. And it's that challenge, isn't it? When you look at some of the sums that have been said to me about the capital maintenance backlog that's accumulated over a long time, well, those are eye-watering, some of those sums, and—

I've got a question on that.

—not things that we can address overnight either. And that's why—. Clearly, we have a four-year term as a Government this time; there's only so much we'll be able to achieve there. And that's why looking at a longer term strategy, with those goals and investment goals and where we need to get to, is really important. What I find really difficult at this point in time is that, without having that baseline in terms of what's needed, it's really difficult to really know how much we're lagging behind in terms of the investments needed.

So, for instance, with sport, the Football Association of Wales have done a facilities review. I know that they require, over the next five years, £150 million. Nofio Cymru, Swim Wales, have done work in terms of their swimming pools and how much needs to be invested—and this is really to maintain what we have, even—of just over £400 million. These are huge sums of money and show the scale of the problem we've inherited.

But what I hope I will be able to present to you in the next few months is complete transparency in terms of that backlog and how we are going to be able to get to grips with that. But it will require not just public money as well—we'll need to look in terms of further investment and what other opportunities for investment there are, because, clearly, the Welsh Government budget will not be able to address all of those needs, if you just look at the figures I've outlined just for swimming pools alone.

Thank you.

Diolch yn fawr. Steven Rodaway.

You've actually touched on a little bit of my question. You've talked about lack of resources, you've talked about cultural priorities, and, again, it is a little bit about the maintenance, the backlogs that are currently out there. But also there's a suggestion of new things coming in, such as the national contemporary art gallery. Obviously, you've got to prioritise these different elements and, with our current infrastructure not necessarily being in a good place and the amount of infrastructure for that, what's happening with regard to any new projects, and where would your focus be?

I think it's important that we remain ambitious as a Government and identify those projects that we should have as a nation, and I would argue that we should have a national gallery of contemporary art. I think that challenge then is that, when you see the sums we need to invest in what we have, we need to strike that balance. And I think, by having that longer term strategy, that longer term plan, we can look to address the funding needs right now and then look towards the future and the different funding models so that we can achieve both in the future. But certainly, for me, seeing the severity of the challenges that a number of our organisations face, I think we do need to prioritise those first before we look at any new investment.

We are still investing, of course, in that dispersed model in terms of contemporary art, and looking at different ways to ensure that there is that investment in something that's crucially important. We've got amazing contemporary artists here in Wales as well, and I want to make sure that they know that they're supported by this Government and can stay in Wales, that there's a future for them, and look at different ways to expand that. So, the Celf Cymru project remains important, but I do think we need to do that work to identify what other investments there should be in the future—and, in terms of the national gallery of contemporary art, that's where I see it.

I think there was some sort of suggestion that it could be self-sustaining, but I think there was a lot of pushback on that it would actually be self-sustaining. How do you see that playing out? Is that your view, that you could see it as some sort of self-sustaining element, or will it need public funds, which would have to be taken from somewhere else? You'd have to, obviously, rob Peter to pay Paul.

Well, at the moment, none of our national institutions are self-funding. So, we are in a very different position to some nations, when you look in terms of philanthropy and so on. So, I do think, in terms of the future of the sector, looking at how we increase investment elsewhere or increase income is something that needs to be part of the conversation, and look at different models. I'm very open to those different models in terms of a future national gallery of contemporary art. There were a number of models outlined in that work, but that work needs to be progressed, and I think we can do that alongside developing a longer term strategy. Some of the work in that strategy will be about looking to the future, but we do have an urgency to look at the challenges right now as well.

To be honest with you, when I was in your position scrutinising, and I was asking for some of the figures that I've disclosed to you now, like the challenges with swimming pools, like with football, if you look at that across all sports, we had no idea, in scrutinising the Government, what those figures were. So, now that I am in that position, I think that's something we're going to have to look at very carefully and balance then between those new aspirations that we think we should have as a Government as opposed to what then would stop people from being able to participate if their local arts venue that they already go to, or their local sports club or local swimming pool, closed. Those are the kinds of trade-offs we'll have to look at.

Would you say that this contemporary art gallery is very much based on whether you do get private investors coming in, philanthropic investors coming in, whether the future of it is based around that—obviously because you've got a lot of expenses in just keeping the current infrastructure going?

Not necessarily. I think what I'm saying is that I don't know at this point in time. Clearly, the Government does not have the kinds of sums available to it at the moment, unless it was to take away from what's needed in terms of that backlog maintenance. But I think, in terms of a national gallery of contemporary art, we do invest currently in contemporary art in terms of that dispersed model, and I would hope that we're able to build upon that. It's also a very live conversation about should there be an anchor site or not. Further work is needed there. But I'm not ruling out public investment. I think, clearly, what we've seen, though, is an underinvestment from Government in arts, culture, heritage and sport, and part of that work now is truly understanding where our investment can make the biggest difference, biggest impact, because I think we've lost opportunities in terms of our economy as well. The creative industries are hugely, hugely important to our economy. Sport is hugely important. The arts, culture, creativity are hugely important, and I think under—. Well, they were misunderstood, not appreciated enough by the previous administration, and that's something that we're trying to right.

That's actually a really good point. Are you actually commissioning a study into what all this brings, whether it's culture, whether it's sport—they probably should be split out a little bit—as in how much this actually does bring into the Welsh economy, and then using that as a basis for your cultural priorities?

We are looking at a number of measures, and this comes back to the point that Paul Davies was asking me in terms of measures as well. Obviously, some of it will be economic, some of it is about health and well-being and prevention, and it's trying to look at all that in the mix. Because we've got the stats and figures in terms of economic impact. What we don't have is looking at, 'Well, what does further investment mean in terms of the economy?' How do we truly embed these within the visitor economy, for instance? I just think we've not been strategic enough under previous administrations, and looking now to having that whole-Government approach is really important.

Okay.

Niamh Salkeld.

I appreciate the honesty as well that you've given us as a committee with the situation, because I think that really helps with our work as well. I agree that Wales should have a national contemporary arts gallery. It should be the norm for our nation to have that. One thing I wanted to ask—. You kind of answered my first question, which was on your longer term vision, but one of the concerns that we had with Celf before was the fact that it wasn't reaching some areas, specifically the Valleys. We speak about barriers when it comes to accessing art and sports and so on. I was just wondering if this new Government is seeking to tackle that barrier as well, so that it's not limited to only some areas.

Yes, and I think it's really important that we learn from what's happened in terms of that dispersed model, and, obviously, as part of developing the new strategy, I completely agree with you. I don't want to leave this committee under any ambiguity. I would love to see a national gallery of contemporary art, and I think Wales deserves one, needs one. I think it's really disappointing that we haven't seen movement there. But in terms of then looking at where there are gaps, potentially, that's something I really hope comes through in the strategy as well.

I think our local museums and galleries are hugely important. I've been really concerned about local museums in particular, because they're non-statutory. Also, to be able to host collections, or national collections, that comes with a price, because you have to have the right equipment, the right galleries, et cetera, in place. There used to be a project run by the Government, going way back, called Sharing Treasures, where there was investment in local museums and galleries in order to be able to take objects, take collections. We've also seen in the local museum sector that they've had to perhaps reduce the number of engagement officers or education officers or curators working locally. Amgueddfa Cymru have had to reduce their number of staff and some of those that would have been working with local museums to be able to share national collections. So, I think it's indicative perhaps of the cuts that we've seen that access to our national collections has become more challenging because of cuts overall.

There's often a focus on national institutions, but, for me, I think it's really crucial that this strategy looks at the local as well, because often that's the most accessible point of access for people, rather than traveling to the national museum or the national library. I think we need to really look at access to the national collections. Clearly, our national collections are not owned by the Welsh Government, they're not owned by the institutions that safeguard them, they're owned by the people of Wales. I think very clearly that we need to ensure that people have that access and opportunity to engage with them, be inspired by them, and also that artists are able to show their work and engage with people in the communities they're from.

One other thing I just wanted to touch on while we're on about the national museum and so on is a question I had about St David's Hall specifically. That has been closed now since 2023—which is, I think, three years to this month—for repairs. I'm none the wiser—I'm not sure if other people are as well—as to when that's planning to reopen. I'm aware that the responsibility is with Cardiff Council, if I'm correct, but, obviously, with it being our national hall as well, it does tie into, I would think, the culture strategy and the bigger picture. So, I was just wondering if you could provide us with any updates you might have, or any dialogue you might have had with Cardiff Council, on when we can expect an update on this. Because I think there's a concern that we don't know when it's going to open, and the years are ticking on now with it.

I share your concerns. I would be on record asking questions of previous Ministers on this, because it is a hugely important venue, as you've outlined, for our nation, as well as our capital city. I haven't had that dialogue yet. I have met informally with the new leader of Cardiff Council and asked him then for us to be able to have a discussion around culture, sports and major events. I will be following up on that shortly, and I will be very happy to provide the committee with an update following that.

That would be great. Thank you.

Paul Davies.

Thank you, Chair. Steven Rodaway was just asking you about philanthropy and about levering in private funding. Just for clarification, will the new strategy include how to lever in private funding to our cultural life?

It's a question I'm asking at the moment. I don't know if it will be in the strategy itself because it will be very different for each of the organisations and the sectors in terms of how they do that. Clearly, that has to be something we look at. I've been very clear in my discussions with officials, with different organisations as well, that I'm keen to understand what opportunities are being missed at the moment, what are the different models, the different approaches internationally as well. It was part of my discussion during my recent visit to the United States of America. The creative industries and culture featured prominently there. It was very clear that people were very excited by a lot of what's happening here in Wales when it comes to culture and the arts. Some of the conversations were around, 'Tell us about your big projects coming up'.

I'm really keen that we also look at some of the barriers for organisations to be able to develop that philanthropic side at the moment. As I mentioned, one of the barriers they've shared with me has been the fact that they just don't have the staff available to support them with that work, because if you have to face—. Do you go for your education officer or do you go for someone who fundraises? They can evidence better with the education officer in terms of impact, and that's something that needs to be addressed.

Diolch, Gadeirydd.

Diolch. Rebeca Phillips.

Thank you very much. As you mentioned, I think it's fair to say that you inherited a very fragile cultural infrastructure, and I welcome the new energy that this Government has brought. How will you ensure that the new strategy is funded appropriately and mean that elements of culture are available to people across Wales, in both urban and rural areas?

Thank you for that question. I think that one of the greatest challenges, as I mentioned, is the lack of data that has existed in terms of understanding, first, what has been lost, what's at risk of being lost that has somehow managed to survive to date, and then to look at, in terms of the funding we have, how should we prioritise expenditure. That's why all the solutions aren't in my portfolio. I mentioned earlier the issue of transport, and some of my previous budget and future budget will be spent on transport costs in order to enhance school access, and so on. But again, that is something that permeates all portfolios. If you look at health and accessing health services, transport can be a problem there too.

In terms of looking at some of the barriers in terms of people accessing these things that are invested in, I think we do have to look at all of those elements too, and to look at all of the individual budgets that are trying to do similar things, because there are elements, for example, of the child poverty budget that have been spent on securing access to culture and sport. Perhaps you have so much money in that budget, or in terms of the Welsh language portfolio when it comes to access to the Urdd Eisteddfod or the National Eisteddfod. All of these are distinct pots at the moment and aren't contained within one strategy, and not looking at how we can bring this funding together to have a greater impact.

So, that's why I think on occasion, because we do look at a lot of small projects rather than thinking strategically and thinking, well, if you live in mid Wales and your nearest swimming pool is a lot further than if you lived in Cardiff, for example, then those costs will be different. And that's why, with Nofio Ysgol, we are working with nine different local authorities at the moment that will address those challenges.

But similarly in terms of culture, and that's why I think that looking at local museums and archives and historical sites is important too, and then to consider how we ensure that people, first of all, are aware of them, that they're part of the curriculum in relation to children, and that families also know what's available to them free of charge. With Cadw, for instance, there are projects in place in terms of discounted admission to the sites that do charge and those on low incomes can access those for £1. Not everyone is aware of that; there are a number of sites that are free of charge. It's just ensuring that people understand what's available and that we address some of the barriers too.

Thank you very much. On that note, the Government has shown a strong commitment to making sure that every child can swim, which is, of course, so important. Unfortunately, we have seen a lot of local swimming pools closing down, for example in my local area in Pontardawe. When can we expect an update on the work that's being done to ensure that local provision for our young people and the wider community is in place?

That's a very good question, because that is one of the challenges. I do think that when things are lost, it just shows people how challenging it is. And that's why it was very difficult without truly understanding what the situation is, and also working with local authorities. That is crucially important in order to understand the challenges that they face, because, for one thing, many of our swimming pools are very old. They're very expensive to run. The investment required is significant. I do think that we then need to look at, once we have all of the data gathered—and that picture is very quickly emerging, Steffan talks regularly with Sport Wales, who are leading on this work—how we prioritise where the gaps exist.

So, our hope is to have some sort of live dashboard where we'll be able to map where the different resources are, for example swimming pools, so that we can also see which are very old and have that risk. And then we can look strategically at that, because at the moment it depends if one makes a bid for funding or not, rather than us thinking, ‘Well, if we lose a swimming pool there, then all of that population there won't have access to swimming’.

It's very difficult for local authorities to do that individually, because clearly they have the data in terms of their own individual authorities, whereas I think that there's a role for us as Government to be collaborating with Swim Wales, for example, who do have the pan-Wales strategy, but also for us in terms of investment, to look at, ‘Well, yes, this is a challenge. This swimming pool has closed, which means that the population here don't have access’, or, ‘This is very much at risk of going too’. Because then you could see very large areas where there is no access to swimming unless we do this work now.

Thank you very much. Just following up from that question on the free swimming lessons, evidently, that is being introduced from September onwards in some local authorities for children in years 4 and 5. What is the likely timeline in terms of expanding that pilot across other local authorities?

We are starting with nine local authorities, and the intention there is to learn lessons, as Rebeca mentioned, in terms of the different challenges in urban areas and rural areas, and we truly need to see what the challenges are whether this is having the impact that we'd hoped. So, what we've committed to is that there will be more local authorities in the second year, and then hopefully by the third year all local authorities will be involved, so then, within three years, we will have all local authorities, and all children will have that access.

It does vary a great deal across Wales at the moment. There are some local authorities that are doing excellent work in this area, but we also need to understand, even where there has been free provision available, or in-school provision, why some children still can't swim or don't participate in those lessons. So that is going to be an important part of the work, and the water safety element is also going to be important. That is just as important as the swimming lessons themselves.

Thank you. Are there any questions or anything to add? Steffan.

On the numbers, we’re at nine in this year, and then in terms of the plan we've announced, it's expanding to seven in the second year and then six in the third year. So, as the Minister said, by the end of the third year it will be a national scheme at that point, across all county councils.

Excellent. Thank you very much for that information. Louise Emery.

I'm going to swing you over to devolved broadcasting. You talked about devolved broadcasting as a response to a genuine gap in the current system, so could you just define what you mean by a genuine gap?

I would think that we would all see that there are huge challenges at the moment with our public service broadcasting in terms of cuts that they've seen, additional cuts announced over the summer, and why we need a strong media for our democracy, which holds me to account as a Government Minister and holds the Senedd to account. Very clearly, with the shadow broadcasting authority, this is not Plaid Cymru or me as Minister saying this; it does come from an expert panel that made these recommendations, so I'm implementing those recommendations. It comes from other reviews and reports there have been, i.e. by the Institute of Welsh Affairs. In the fifth Senedd, this committee looked at it in terms of the devolution of broadcasting. Therefore, I think it's just a matter of looking at what does our democracy need. Clearly, the media, and being able to ensure that there's plurality, is really important.

But what does that actually mean to the viewers watching television? What is the actual gap? What's missing in terms of—? I think we have pretty good BBC Wales media, we have lots of journalist outlets. What's missing? I don't understand what's missing.

Well, if we look at the evidence that's actually been submitted to various inquiries, and actually look at the reality on the ground, we shouldn't take for granted that that's secure at the moment. BBC, ITV and S4C have all over the summer outlined the dangers in terms of that reducing, of fewer reporters being based in communities, of less news from across Wales being made available, less programming. So, I think it's a very, very real risk, and I would hope it's something that perhaps the committee will be looking at, because I've certainly been concerned to hear our public service broadcasters raise those concerns, and I think it should be a concern for all of us. They've been very clear in raising those.

In terms of devolving it, though, because that's just a money thing, isn't it, that BBC Wales have had substantial cuts and redundancies across all different areas of programming—. But devolving it won't solve the money problem. We know that the licence fee that we get from Wales is about £195 million, but, actually, at the moment, the output within BBC Wales, I believe, is more than that—£220 million, £230 million. It's already being subsidised, so how does—? There's going to have to be a substantial financial package if you're then going to say, 'Well, we want to protect redundancies, particularly in news?' So, where's the money going to come from if you're going to do devolved broadcasting? It's going to have to come with a chunk of money that the Welsh Government are going to have to subsidise through a licence fee, because that's not enough.

But the shadow broadcasting and communications authority for Wales isn't the devolution of broadcasting—they're two separate things. Obviously, the shadow broadcasting authority addresses all of these in terms of looking at how those models would work, how we would address those, overcoming some of the challenges that you've rightfully outlined, because, clearly, as you've mentioned in your question to me, the status quo isn't working in terms of our democracy here in Wales and in terms of ensuring that that continues.

I think it's deeply flawed, when you think that S4C and its future is dependent on decisions made outside of Wales, that we have no say formally as a Government, as a Senedd, when it comes to the BBC charter renewal. It's something that we should have a say on, but we don't have any kind of voice. So, I think the fact that we are having to look at this is clearly because it's identified that devolution of broadcasting seems to be the only way that Wales will have its voice so that our democracy functions as it should. The status quo isn't working, and this is a step to address that.

Okay, we'll probably respectfully disagree on that. The Silk commission suggested that, yes, Wales needed a devolved voice in BBC governance and particularly with S4C. So, would it not be the solution to push that and to make sure that there's a Welsh Government seat on those boards, rather than set up a completely separate organisation?

Well, we are.

So, why aren't you having the influence that you need to on those boards, then?

Well, please ask DCMS to come here and ask them those questions, because clearly we've made the case for it, there's been cross-party agreement previously that that should be the case, but that's not the case. We will continue to make that case clearly and strongly, but we also need to do that preparatory work. As I said, it was an expert panel that talked about the setting up of a shadow broadcasting authority. If the status quo isn't working, yes, we can ask, we can request, but we also need to do something about it, and that's what I'm attempting to do with this.

Okay, I still don't understand what the Welsh viewer will see as the difference. I don't see the status quo—. I just don't understand what the problem is with media in Wales, because it seems to be pretty robust, from my position anyway. What's the problem? What's the gap? What's the issue?

Well, perhaps we could share some of the reports that have been published by the Institute of Welsh Affairs and so on, if the committee would find it helpful to really understand why we're actually listening to experts in this field, why academic research shows that, actually, Wales is missing out in terms of representation.

What will the Welsh viewer see?

Well, some of the things we have addressed, in terms of being able to support there being a journalist here in the Senedd. Obviously, that person is completely neutral in terms of how they are; we have no say in terms of what they publish or not. But we're identifying gaps where there haven't been people. Journalists watch Westminster committees and there would be on the news, then, what had happened in committees. It's very rare that anything that happens in the committee makes it to broadcast, unless the Senedd reporter covers it. The lack of investment we've seen in the media in Wales, the reductions we've seen, has made it really challenging for people to truly know what's going on. That's why we've seen people not be represented and not know what's devolved or not when it's reported in the media. I'm sure you've watched some news reports sometimes where it's not been clear which Government is being talked about, even on our own channels, or which Prif Weinidog is being referenced. These are the things that need to be addressed, and I think that's where people would see the difference.

We do have democracy reporters funded by the BBC. As a local councillor, I used to work with them quite regularly. Basically, what you guys are after is funding of more journalists who would look particularly at the work we do here in the Senedd. Again, it's coming back to money, isn't it? BBC Wales are telling us that they are having to make cuts, and we're saying, 'Well, if we do shadow broadcasting authority, then we'll suddenly find money and we'll have journalists in the Senedd.' I don't get where the money is going to come from for the journalists, if that's what the gap is. Where's the money coming from?

I don't know if you've had a chance to look at the reports by the expert panel on a shadow broadcasting and communications authority for Wales, but I think it shows clearly the work that needs to happen. Because, obviously, how people digest news is very different these days as well. It's really looking at how we address what's currently not working, the democratic deficit, to ensure Wales is adequately represented and that we have a voice when it comes to decisions about broadcasting in Wales. Clearly, in terms of S4C, for instance, the channel itself and its importance in terms of the Welsh language cannot be overstated in terms of the content for children, young people et cetera. So, what is trying to be addressed here is a system that's not working currently, and I would hope that the committee would want to support that.

I'll leave it there.

Diolch yn fawr. I think Niamh wanted to come in first. Steven, sorry, I think Niamh had her hand up earlier, sorry.

I think the statement we heard from S4C last week demonstrates the problem we have with broadcasting at the moment—

saying it's in jeopardy.

I do think there is a fundamental problem at the moment. Last week, S4C warned the Welsh Affairs Select Committee that the future of broadcasting in the Welsh language is at risk because of concerns with funding at the moment. What is your response to this? Even though this does fall under the UK Government's remit, as you touched upon, it could have an enormous impact on your portfolio, for the Welsh language and education. We mentioned Effi o Blaenau—things like that exist because of S4C. So, what's your response to these concerns that were raised during that committee?

I'm extremely concerned, and I do hope that it's something that we as a Government and you as a committee can really look at, and hopefully we'll be able to co-operate in addressing these concerns. Because that's what's difficult at the moment: we don't have a voice, we don't have a role in any of these decisions, although it's the people of Wales, the people we represent, who will lose out.

I can't imagine what could be lost if we didn't have S4C. It's something that people fought for, and we should continue to fight to safeguard its future. That's why I do think that Westminster needs to recognise the role of this Senedd, to recognise the importance of our public service broadcasters in terms of Wales and the Welsh language, and why we should be looking in earnest, if S4C is making these comments, at how we stop that from becoming a reality.

Diolch yn fawr. Steven Rodaway.

I just want to bounce off what Louise Emery was saying. It kind of came across that there would be a cost to this, there would be an ultimate cost. With the establishment of a new broadcasting authority, have we got any idea of what that would cost? Obviously, on one side, the experts are saying there's a need for it, and you believe there's a need for it, but you've always got to balance that against how much this costs and how much it's actually going to cost the Government purse. It's one thing being able to say, 'Okay, that's great, there's a need', but there has to be, when you say to anyone, 'How much is that going to cost? How long is this piece of string?', just an idea, if you have it at this point, or when you'll have it, of how much this agency will cost.

Yes. The initial cost being invested in this financial year is £45,000, and that's to develop the work further. As costs become clearer, those are then obviously going to be decisions for Government in terms of how we take that forward. But that's the initial cost in terms of making sure that we have it set up, that it really looks at what its scope would be—that's the initial work that we're taking forward.

Just so I'm clear, out of that £45,000, we're going to get the full scope of it and get an idea of how much the whole thing will cost.

Yes.

And then we can obviously hold you to account, whether you've kept to that budget, and then also we can judge it against what your output will be from it, as in that it will protect Welsh broadcasting.

Yes.

Okay, thank you.

Paul Davies.

Can I just come in on that, because I think a previous report by the previous Welsh Government suggested that once this would be set up, it would cost £700,000 to £800,000. Do you accept that figure?

That's something that I want to see as the next stage of that work, because clearly we need to understand what the costs are and look in detail at those.

So, you don't accept that figure at this stage.

I accept that that was the figure indicated, but I want to make sure whether that is the genuine figure, or is it more? Is it less? Those are the kinds of things that, in Government now, I'm able to scrutinise much better before I come before you for scrutiny.

Diolch, Gadeirydd.

Just one other point, following up on some of the comments that have been made. Although broadcasting is not devolved, decisions on S4C and BBC have a significant impact on culture, democracy and the Welsh language in Wales, as you have referred to. So, in terms of how the Welsh Government ensures that the voice of Wales is heard during the process of renewing the BBC charter, would this be something that the shadow broadcasting and communications authority for Wales would look at?

Well, clearly, the work on charter renewal is happening now. When I wasn't in Government, I did ensure that we did submit evidence to that. This committee in the past has been very clear in writing to the DCMS on the importance of Wales having a voice, that this committee should have a voice and that I as a Minister should have a voice, and I would make that point on all possible occasions.

I do think this is an issue of very real concern, that we don't have that role automatically, and certainly, I've not had a meeting with Lisa Nandy as of yet, but I very much hope that we will have such a meeting soon. There has been some communication between myself and different Ministers in DCMS, and we will be pursuing that, including with Ian Murray—there's been a great deal of back-and-forth communication there too.

Thank you very much. I'm aware that Mike Hedge is online, and I want to make sure that you get the opportunity to come in, Mike. Were there any questions that you wanted to raise on any area?

Yes. First of all, can I remind people of my declarations of interest regarding local football, cricket and rugby clubs?

The first question I've got is on the Commonwealth Games. The 2026 games took place in Glasgow this year and were very successful. It's a slimmed down games now, nowhere near the cost of previous Commonwealth Games. Are the Welsh Government considering bidding for one of them?

Thank you. I had the honour of being in Glasgow, and I have to say that it was great to see that Team Cymru—. If you weren't from Wales, they were everyone's second favourite team. We definitely captured the imagination of Glasgow, the city, and other nations, and I was really proud of the team as well—great energy. I think one of the things that Glasgow obviously had in place was that it wasn't their first time hosting, either; they had the facilities in place, even with a slimmed down Commonwealth Games.

As part of the facilities review that we're undertaking now, yes, it's to understand the local need but also the national need if we were in a position ever to be able to bid, because we don't have the facilities currently. I understand that we could bid for the Commonwealth Youth Games, that the facilities we have are adequate for the youth Commonwealth Games, but not for the Commonwealth Games. And that will be something I will need to look at when I have all the information in terms of what's needed locally and nationally—to then look and prioritise. Because I would love to be in a position that we're able to bid for things in the future. We can't bid for major swimming competitions at the moment, because we don't have the right-sized pools et cetera, so there are things that we can't go for. But I think, if I reflect on the question I've had earlier in terms of local swimming pools closing as opposed to then investing in something that would be for one games but maybe not benefit everybody across Wales, these are the decisions that we'll have to make strategically as a Government.

Thank you very much. Any other questions, Mike?

Yes. I know it's in Swansea, but we have a national pool in Swansea, which was built to be of Olympic and Commonwealth standard, but if you could actually write to us and tell us what facilities are not available in Wales.

The next question I've got is on facilities for young people, third and fourth generation pitches. What are your plans to increase the number of 3G and 4G pitches?

Well, one of the things we're looking at is identifying those gaps, understanding how old some of the pitches are as well, because it's not just having them, it's making sure the funding's there to ensure that they're invested in and able to remain open. It's unfortunately one of the things that I've inherited, that lack of data. So, without having that to hand and being able to identify, my hope is that we're able to extend those facilities.

In my earlier response, around looking at our investment in schools, this is crucially important as well. But I've also visited schools where the upkeep of facilities wasn't built in either, which means that, even though they may be relatively new, they're actually not fit for purpose in a very short period of time. I think what I'm keen to look at is not just that investment, but how we ensure the upkeep of those facilities as well for the longer term. That's something to work closely with local authorities on, because, obviously, if they become community facilities, there is potential for income generation around those because of pressures that, sometimes, schools have faced where they've had to actually use that budget to relieve in-year pressures, rather than being able to set it aside for upkeep. So, this is a very live conversation.

Steven Rodaway.

Again, I make the declaration that my background for the last 15 years has been major events. So, when you look at the major events calendar, have you had a think or a piece of work happening, as in I understand that there are probably some challenges around the actual facilities we've got, but going, 'Actually, we'll bid for this one at this stage in order for the future to bid for a bigger one'? So, there's actually a process of works where we can get the money in and there's a reason to actually improve the facilities to get to the standard where we can start hosting major international events. So, we've actually got that almost look forward, going, 'This is what our aim is to be.' And then, based all around that piece, has the work been done as well, again, on what is the economic benefit that this can actually bring to Wales if we follow this path?

When you look at major events, we've got two major things coming to Wales—and we have had major events in Wales. So, the Tour de France next year, followed by the Euros in 2028, two major events, and there will be investment going in, in terms of facilities and infrastructure, with both of those.

What I'm keen to look at with other major events is that they are part of this wider strategy, because if we don't look at every level—. You can't look at local and not look at what's needed for major events. They all are part of one piece of work. That doesn't mean I can do everything within the four-year term, but I do think I'd like to be able to tell you when would we be in a position to bid for a Commonwealth Games or equivalent, because, at the moment, those are all aspirational to the future rather than having a road map. Those are the things we need to look at as well as major events, to really look at why we're bidding for them, not just for the prestige of having them, but the impact, ensure that we're also in a place to really take advantage of the opportunities linked to them, that we've really thought through the costs before bidding to ensure that we do have the investment in place, especially when it comes to legacy. Because it's one thing to host, but to have a really impactful legacy that is meaningful requires a lot of work and investment. Sometimes, even with things like the cultural activation or that legacy piece, it's always, 'We'll figure that out once we've got it or once we've figured out all the logistics.' I'm very keen that whatever we bid for from now with us as a new Government would be fully costed, fully thought out in terms of that economic and social impact.

Again, I can't disagree with what you've said there. What I would like to see is a pathway to that, so you start bidding on the lower level but you see that that's building up because we want to bid in the future for that. So, when you're making a case and we're going against other countries, you can say, 'Well, we've already got this. This is what we can prove. This is what we've developed within Wales.' And then, around that, then, is built the business strategy, the transport strategy. And all of this can be a driver for, basically, improving Wales and improving facilities in Wales, not just in sport, but hospitality, transport et cetera, et cetera.

Definitely, and the conversations I've had already, such as with those leading on the Euros 2028, are that they think Wales is a brilliant venue, that Cardiff itself is a venue that fans coming to Wales will really be blown away by: the fact that our stadium is in the heart of our city centre, which isn't the case for every nation. People can see, who are not from Wales, what the benefits are. And also they referenced some of the challenges, such as transport, to me and the kinds of improvements we need to make to make sure that we ensure that people have the best possible visit when they're here.

I also want to see how people then get to know Wales, because that's one of the things, that perhaps people will come in just for a match and then go straight back on a train, and we don't see the economic benefits if they don't stay or if they don't explore different parts of Wales, or even Cardiff itself beyond the stadium. That's something that we need to be mindful of when we're bidding as well. I think the Tour de France will provide a huge platform for us, just when you think about those helicopter shots of Wales that will be seen internationally. And it's really important that we're there, able to take advantage of that, then, so that those communities that desperately need that boost—. When you think about areas of deprivation, for instance, a lot of our valleys will be featured, and people will see a different take on the Valleys, I think. They'll be blown away by the beauty of some of the places they'll see on the route and perhaps think, 'I want to visit there.' So, I really hope that we are able to really make sure—. One of the things I'm working with officials on now is to really question, 'Well, what does legacy look like? What does success look like?' When I was in a scrutiny role of Government, one of my frustrations was that those KPIs and measures weren't built in from the start. Obviously, I've inherited now the Tour de France and Euros, but I still have scope to help influence and shape some of those areas. But I want that to be clear before we bid in the future.

Again, I think that part of this is, once you get somebody in to Wales for an event, keeping them here, because they'll stay and they'll spend money. And again, it's how many hotel beds you've got around the area. And again, probably selfishly, I'd also like personally to see where Swansea fits into this piece. Again, everyone talks very heavily about Cardiff, it's obviously got the best facilities, but how do we move people further down the M4 in order to take advantage of the whole, larger parts, of Wales?

I couldn't agree more with you. I think what I would be keen to do is to explore—. If you think about the Euros 2028, some of the matches will also be in Ireland, which means people will be travelling by ferry. Well, that's a fantastic opportunity. If they've seen a match in Cardiff, then they're travelling the route to Fishguard or Holyhead, and those are vast parts of Wales that they could be exploring en route. So these are the kind of pathways—we need to make it easy for people who are visiting Wales with different itineraries, to showcase, actually, the different parts of Wales that they can see. And those kinds of opportunities, I think, are key ones for us and ones where, as a Government, we can do more to support those.

If you think about Wrexham and all the interest in Wrexham recently, we know that a number of visitors that are going to watch Wrexham play football are actually staying in Chester and maybe coming in just for the match and going out of Wales again. I was lucky enough to be at the new Football Museum of Wales and Wrexham Museum at the weekend, and I hope people will spend time and visit that, but wouldn't it be great if they then thought, 'Let's go and explore a different part of Wales as well', especially some of the international visitors that are coming over now, that they don't think they've done Wales because they've gone to Wrexham, or even just the stadium and not explored the whole of Wrexham? Let's make sure that people know that there's more to Wales than just coming in for something and that they want to stay and explore different parts of our fantastic country, which includes Swansea.

Thank you very much. I was going to ask a question about a lasting legacy, but you have already answered those questions. I think it's so important that we consider a lasting legacy in terms of participation in sport, economic benefits to communities across Wales, from north to south Wales. I think we as a committee will be looking forward to hearing more about some of those measures and what convinces you in terms of what that legacy might be.

Nick Carter.

Just on Creative Wales, how much of Creative Wales's funding is directed towards productions that directly portray Wales and Welsh stories and Welsh people on screen, rather than simply use Wales as a backdrop, and how much of the money is invested in indigenous companies?

Thank you very much for that question. Creative Wales is now six years old, and, as part of the new strategy and bringing creative industries in, we are really looking at all of those elements. I will ask Joedi if she has specific responses to those questions.

Do I have to press this?

No, you just can speak.

Fine. I don't, in terms of the Welsh portrayal, but I do know that, out of all of the productions we've supported since 2020, when we were set up, 40 of those have been indigenous and 42 have been inward investment. So, it's more or less a 50:50 split.

And there are some recent developments. I don't know how many of you have had the pleasure of seeing Effi o Blaenau as of yet, which has been a huge success, and it's a Welsh language film, and there is now a commitment to invest in Welsh language film on an annual basis. Certainly, some of the discussions that we are having are on looking at those indicators and ensuring that Wales is used as a location and promoting that.

The way we remain competitive is also an issue. It was an issue in the past that Creative Wales was quite unique and could offer greater incentives. Other parts of the UK, other nations, can now be more competitive. We don't have all the levers either that some have, such as Ireland, for example, in terms of some of the things that we can do to attract productions, but certainly, in terms of the sector here in Wales, that is a very live discussion as we look more strategically in terms of their future here in Wales. It's a very important workforce.

Diolch. I just think it's really important to use all the leverage we can, to not just show Wales as a backdrop and mountains and coastline that is never identified as Wales, and rather have the stories being set in Wales, and people will then want to come and travel to visit Wales like they've done in Northern Ireland, for example. So, yes. Diolch.

Diolch yn fawr. Niamh.

Just following on with the creative industries, just a couple of questions I've got. The first one is specifically on how you're supporting the creative industries, as they're being massively impacted by the rise in AI at the moment. I hear from constituents and we get correspondence about how specifically the creative industries are really feeling the brunt of the rise in AI. I know you've got the creative and culture forums— they'll be coming up, I think, quite soon, won't they? Will that be brought up in that discussion as well? And I'm sure with the creative industries now being part of the strategy that you guys are putting forward that these sorts of areas will come up time and time again, but—.

Yes, certainly, the workforce and the impact of AI is something that is also impacting a number of different elements of the portfolio, including artists, where, perhaps, posters are being generated by AI rather than using artists. There are a number of challenges here, and one of the things that's been disappointing for me is to see on some of the UK fora that perhaps we don't have a voice as Wales in some of these discussions, and that is something that I know Joedi and the team are making a strong case for so that we can be included in many of these discussions and negotiations. But it is a question for us to look at in this strategy too, because things are changing so very quickly and certainly it's a cause of concern to see jobs being lost because of AI. So, in terms of the sector, having this forum and bringing them around the table to explain some of the challenges they face directly will be of assistance, because these will be live discussions that will happen often and regularly, because we know that there are serious challenges facing this workforce. Much of the work of the previous committee has been looking at this issue too. So, it is something that we're very aware of.

Diolch. The other question I had, then, was, again, to do with the creative industries, but specifically on grass-roots music venues across Wales. I was wondering if you'd be able to provide some information that you may have on how you're looking to support grass-roots music venues, because we know that they've been struggling significantly over the past couple of years. But, yes, I was wondering if you could give any insight on how this new Government is looking to support them.

Yes, certainly, they're really important. That's the first point I'd like to make. And I think some of the things that Creative Wales managed to do in the past few years have been reactive, and have been working with the industry in a way that has meant greater support. I really want to understand, with music more broadly, some of the challenges, because we've also seen, with things like traditional music, a threat to its future—lots of musicians saying that they can't see a future of staying in Wales and being able to be a musician. So, I see that as part of a wider strategy.

But, certainly, our live music venues are really important, but they've also expressed concerns to me that there are fewer new bands coming through sometimes because of the challenges there. It ties into fewer people taking music at GCSE, or drama at school. It goes down—fewer opportunities for people to participate in music then impacts how many bands are coming through. We've got fantastic talent here in Wales; I'm sure some of you would have been at some of the gigs at the Eisteddfod and so on, and would have seen those showcased. But I don't think we can take it for granted that that's going to continue unless there's a continuous strategic approach, and working with the industry.

I don't know if there's anything you want to add, Joedi, on that?

Not really, no.

Okay, that's fine.

Just following up on that, and I think you touched upon it, that educational side—I know, again, from my own constituency, we have so many children going through education and they do drama or they do music at a GCSE standard, and then it drops off significantly when they get to A-level and they want to pursue it as well. And, for me, as well, it feels like, not always, but sometimes, with the creative industries, it's harder to come from a more disadvantaged background because of the uncertainty when it comes to when you get your pay and so on. So, the stability of it is not necessarily ideal for people from more disadvantaged backgrounds. And I think that also contributes to the drop-off, because people tend to tell them, 'This is not a career path that is going to be sustainable for you in your future.' How are you working with the Cabinet Minister for education, and also the Deputy Minister for skills, to try and bridge that educational gap as well, so that we see more people coming through and going into the creative industries?

I think it's really important, as part of the work that's happening with the skills strategy, that creative industries feature strongly there, because it does come down to careers advice, teachers. We know that the creative industries and their economic impact are huge, and that there's a huge variety of jobs. But I met someone who is working in the creative industries last week, and they were telling me that when they were in school, only a few years ago, they were told, because they were a great writer that they could be either a journalist or a teacher. And, actually, the vast, kind of broad roles that there are available now in terms of content creation et cetera, so many different jobs—. But, obviously, it's really difficult, because if teachers aren't aware, who are giving that advice—. And I think that's where some of the schemes we have going into schools, providing those opportunities, tasters, are really important, and that we don't just rely on teachers to try and know every job going, but, actually, to have that link between industry is really important.

We have some really successful scheme there, but I think, with the skills strategy, giving people those pathways, making them aware of jobs that may exist in three years' time, but don't currently exist as opportunities for them—. Because even with things like e-sports, video gaming, and, actually, with music, you could be a musician composing for these things, but the breadth of roles—.

There will also be, when we have that shift with arts prevention as well, far more arts practitioners working in health. So, that broad range of different roles there are transferrable skills. But that's where the instability is of concern. That's why the culture and creative forum will be important to really understand workforce barriers. In the publishing industry, which we haven't touched upon, the wages are low there. It seems to be that you have to have someone wealthy supporting you for you to be able to survive, and these are real challenges, currently, for people who are doing amazing work, but perhaps can't stay in an industry because of that uncertainty.

Diolch.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Helen Jenner.

Just a question on sport now. What is the Welsh Government doing to safeguard women and girls in sport currently?

Well, we want to ensure that everyone feels safe in terms of sports. Obviously, Sport Wales is responsible for ensuring that all of the national sporting bodies do safeguard, and that is something that is vitally important. I was in a cross-governmental meeting with other Ministers from the UK Government while the Commonwealth Games were in Glasgow, and safeguarding is one of those areas of work where we do work together on, because it's something that does arise in a number of different areas, a number of different sports, and that collaboration is happening, and Sport Wales are contributing to that work on behalf of Wales.

At the moment, there isn't an understanding of who is responsible for safeguarding in sport more generally in Wales. Will there be any changes in that area?

Who is not sure about that, just for me to be able to understand, because Sport Wales does have that responsibility?

'Sport is not currently recognised as a site of abuse within Welsh legislation, safeguarding boards, or violence against women and girls policy and frameworks.'

I'm content, if you have details about that lack of clarity—. But in terms of the Welsh Government, it's Sport Wales that has that responsibility, in terms of ensuring that the national governing bodies do have those policies in place.

Okay, thanks.

Thank you.

Thank you very much. I think some correspondence was received on that, and we can share more detail on that. Thank you.

I'm aware that we're getting close to the end of this session, but I just want to check, before we close, whether there are any other questions that people are keen to—. Nick Carter.

Only one quick question—whether there was an update on where we are with the amgueddfa genedlaethol in Cardiff. I'm just wondering if—. I know they've got the one-hundredth year anniversary next year, and I went there, and there's obviously—. We talked earlier about the maintenance backlogs, and so it's just to see whether there's any more developments you can share with us, in terms of what's happening there.

I think it's hugely concerning that our national museum is in a position where there's been such huge underinvestment. I'm very keen to understand what the plans are, what's needed and costs. I'm sure we're all excited to see what the proposals are, but, at this point, there have been no firm proposals put forward, no ask from Amgueddfa Cymru, in terms of any financial support required. But, clearly, my concern is always about our national collections and whether they are safe. Are the buildings fit for purpose? When we've seen, actually, water come through the roofs and there being buckets in our galleries where we've got our national collections, that's of huge concern. And then also maintaining access—that's really key. So, I will be eagerly awaiting updates, as well as this committee, but, clearly, there needs to be, across all of our historical sites, our national museums, the national library, a clear understanding of what's needed. And as a Minister, I'm determined that there is a long-term plan, because it really concerned me to see National Museum Cardiff close its doors suddenly last year, I think. It was really concerning and, clearly, we want to make sure that our national museums are invested in, are open and that people can enjoy them.

Diolch.

And Steven Rodaway.

I know Mike Hedges wants to talk about this as well; he's welcome to come in after me. I want to talk about the Welsh Rugby Union and movement from—

Sorry, can I just check, obviously we're nearly at 3 o'clock, so I just want to check if—

I can't stay. I can't stay post 3 p.m., sorry.

Okay, I'll try and get it in just so it's on record. With the WRU, what conversations have you had with the WRU regarding the movement from four teams? There are three that they seem set on. They haven't published why or how or anything like that, and there's a lot of disquiet within the rugby community on (1), who it is, and (2), what the criteria are around it. I think, from a Government point of view, it would be interesting, because obviously it has a knock-on effect on hospitality, has a knock-on effect on businesses, cafes, pubs, everything. Effectively, it's business. So, I was wondering if you've got any comments on what the Government is doing to have a conversation with the WRU.

I have met with the WRU. I've made very clear all the correspondence that I've received from elected Members and the public in terms of their concerns, and from the county councils as well in terms of what they're worried about in terms of the economic impact, and I made it very clear to WRU—. Of course, I respect that they're an independent governing body and that their decisions are ones that they have the responsibility to make without political interference, but we all know that rugby is very important to a number of our communities. It's important in terms of identity, it's important in terms of health and well-being, it's important in terms of the economy as well, and bringing communities along with you when you're a national body is vitally important.

The message from me, of course, was that a number of people had told me that they don't feel that the WRU are bringing communities with them and working together with those people who want to see the game continuing, who do understand that changes are needed. So, I very much hope that we will see the WRU assessing the implications of any changes, explaining the evidence and being entirely transparent. That's the message that I did convey, that I convey again today, and that I'll continue to convey.

Thank you very much. Just one question to close, but because we're over time, I'm happy for you to write to us in response to this question. There's been a lot of talk, and this committee in its previous form in the past Senedd has done a lot of work on emphasising the importance of the preventative element. I just wanted to ask what change do you hope to see in the Senedd's budget over the next year and in 2027-28 that will show that culture and sport are being treated as a preventative investment in health, rather than being distinct expenditure areas. I understand that you may not have time to answer that now, so we're happy for you to write to us on that. But I think it's important that you're aware of the question.

I'm happy to provide more information, but also this is a very live issue. The discussions are happening. What I can share with you all, and you will have heard this on the floor of the Chamber, hopefully, by other Ministers as well, is that we are committed as a Government to doing this—these discussions are live ones. For example, in terms of the school swimming plans, those were discussions that were had between me, Nerys Evans and Anna Brychan in terms of looking cross-departmentally at the importance of this issue. That's the kind of collaboration that will be happening, not in silos, but to truly look at how this all weaves together.

In terms of next year's budget, that is more challenging because a lot of this work needs to look over the long term, but certainly, over the term of this Senedd, you will be seeing a shift towards that preventative agenda and spending. We have to do that. We know that the evidence is there, but it isn't good enough to just say it needs to be done. We will start taking action, and we have started taking action, for example with school swimming.

Thank you very much. Thank you to the Minister for joining us this afternoon and to her officials for their evidence too. A transcript of the meeting will be sent to you for you to check. Thank you very much.

Thank you very much.

We will move on, therefore, to item 3, the papers to note. Do Members have any comments to make on the record on any of these papers?

Could we take a little bit of a break, like a one-minute break?

I think we will carry on. After this item—

We'll move on to our next item, which is item 4, a motion under Standing Order 17.42 (vi), (vii) and (ix) to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of this meeting. So, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42, subsections (vi), (vii) and (ix), the committee is invited to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting. The purpose of this is to prepare to take evidence and to consider confidential legal advice in relation to item 4, and to discuss items 5, 6 and 7 relating to the internal business of the committee. Are Members content? I see that they are. So, we will now proceed to conduct the rest of the meeting in private session to consider items 4 to 7. We will wait to hear that we are in private session.