Early Years, Children, Young People and Education Committee

No problem.

Ruth Meadows, director of skills and tertiary education in Welsh Government.

Diolch, Ruth.

I'm Claire Rowlands, deputy director in Ruth's directorate, responsible for strategy and funding.

Thank you very much, Claire. Welcome to you all. What we have agreed to do today is to keep the structure of the session quite fluid. So, Members can ask questions, listen to the answers, and then respond with a further question, for instance. However, we have tried to be kind as well and we have distributed the session into themes, so it will be easier for you to keep track. The first theme that we have is Welsh-medium education and training. I will turn to Mair first of all to ask that first question, please.

Thank you very much. I do have a few questions in this area. Data shows that a higher percentage of Welsh speakers are undertaking higher education in colleges, further education and alternative providers than in universities. However, how many of those students study through the medium of Welsh in reality, and how are the Welsh Government and Medr measuring and ensuring that providers do offer Welsh-medium opportunities and are held accountable for doing so? Clearly, measuring the number of Welsh speakers across tertiary education is important, but also how much of the education and training actually happens through the medium of Welsh. We would be interested in pursuing that and how we can increase that provision.

Then, a further related question—there is data in our research brief that notes that there's been an increase in the number of staff teaching through the medium of Welsh up to 2024-25. But, in the context of financial pressures and the possibility of further cuts facing universities, I am gravely concerned that those numbers may reduce. What is the Welsh Government doing, with Medr, to ensure that Welsh-medium staff and provision are not lost disproportionately, undermining that Welsh-medium provision? In reality, that applies to FE and HE, but I am very aware of the specific pressures on HE at the moment. Thank you.

Thank you very much for that question. As many of you will know, developing Welsh-medium education is something that's very close to my heart. This Government also wants to see a substantial increase in Welsh-medium provision across all sectors, from early years through to higher education, and certainly further education.

If I may begin with FE, fewer than 1 per cent of the provision is available through the medium of Welsh at present throughout our colleges. That is an entirely unacceptable situation, so I have had many conversations with Medr and with ColegauCymru, emphasising our desire, indeed our expectation as a Government, that that percentage should increase substantially. As it happens, at the start of this week, I had a meeting with Medr, and Medr are preparing their Welsh language scheme at present, which will be published next year. I emphasised in a letter before the meeting, and during that meeting, that I expected them to offer that leadership throughout the tertiary sector, with them as a body leading, and that there was a need for a change of mindset from being in a very low level of provision to ensuring that the Welsh language becomes a part of the mainstream provision of our providers in the tertiary sector. So, we need to have a change of mindset, a change of approach, and we need to prepare structures to ensure that we have enough staff who are able to provide and enough courses available.

But the important point, I also think, is, if a child has had their education through the medium of Welsh up to the age of 16, then there should be a natural progression into further education or apprenticeships through the medium of Welsh. That does not currently happen. We lose so many young people who are Welsh speakers as they transfer to the tertiary sector.

Thank you.

May I ask a question?

Mair, you go.

Thank you very much. One per cent is a very low level and certainly there's room for improvement there. Related to that, there is mention, sometimes, in relation to providers and Medr, about increasing the percentage of funding to improve the Welsh-medium education and training provision and also to address apprenticeships. It's encouraging to hear that you have had those discussions with Medr. What opportunities were set out and how will that work perhaps be reflected in the budget for 2027-28?

Perhaps what I should have also said is that ColegauCymru have established a taskforce in addition to look at how to develop Welsh-medium provision, under the chairing of the chief executive of Grŵp Llandrillo Menai, and I have arranged a meeting with him next month already. So, I am putting pressure on the sector to increase the provision.

In terms of funding, you will be aware that there are discussions around funding at present. We haven't completed that process yet. The question as to how we support the development of Welsh medium is part of those discussions. But I hope, sooner rather than later, that the Welsh language will not be seen as an additional budget. The Welsh language should be part of the mainstream provision in the sector as a whole. Nobody asks how much we spend on the English language, so providing through the medium of English and Welsh should be part of the mainstream provision, and the budget should reflect that.

Thank you.

Thank you very much. I'll bring Lis in now.

How are you doing? As someone who has been through tertiary education, who left school at the age of 14 with no qualifications and then went into tertiary education, I felt that it changed my life. It's an opportunity for everyone, and we have to find all kinds of pathways for all kinds of people, don't we? What strikes me about this is that we have to listen to people. For instance, if we want to increase the Welsh-medium provision, why hasn't it happened already? Now, what I see is that there are challenges there. One challenge is that there aren't enough lecturers who are willing or able to teach through the medium of Welsh, and that's being dealt with. Another is the fact that young people, very often, may not choose it. We have relied upon the young person to ask for Welsh-medium education, or to choose Welsh-medium education. Now, as you just said—that was brilliant—we just want them to be offered it naturally, don't we? But, in order to offer it, colleges just tend to look at the demand for it. They wait to see what's being requested. So, we somehow need to make that offer and perhaps take a little bit of risk in order to ensure that we provide it—perhaps have fewer numbers of people in the classes, but that will then increase over time. Is it possible to do that?

Well, that's what I would like to see happening, and that is the message that I've conveyed very clearly to Medr and ColegauCymru, that there's that continuity from Welsh-medium education, and we must also bear in mind that we have a number of Welsh learners who have come through the English-medium sector and who are eager to develop their Welsh language skills too, once they enter the tertiary sector.

Now, once we lay the foundation that we will only respond to demand, we know that that hasn't been successful in the past. It hasn't succeeded over the past 50 years, and that is why we are seeing such low numbers receiving Welsh-medium education within the sector. So, we do need to ensure that that continuity happens naturally, without it having to be requested, as such.

And the second thing is that we also know that there are young people leaving school at 16 who perhaps feel, 'Well, I've had enough of Welsh-medium education, and I now want to study through the medium of English’. So, we do have to adapt courses too, and adapt the support that's available, to ensure that we build their confidence and, in particular, their oral skills, while simultaneously demonstrating to them what the benefits of bilingual skills are for the workplace. We know, as we move to the future, that there will be greater demand for bilingual skills. So, bringing all of that together is important.

Can I bring Catherine in now, please?

Bore da. I'm interested in promoting the Welsh language and its uptake. But, as with the letter from ColegauCymru here, there is a huge financial instability that they've spoken about. So, how will these finances balance against that instability? And it's okay to have a good mindset, but what about the practicalities and the budget? And also there's a disparity between north and south Wales in the figures here. What can be done to address that?

Well, we recognise that the further education sector is under pressure. We've seen increased numbers of young people wanting to go into FE. The enrolments are up, and there are waiting lists as well. So, that's a good-news story in many ways, that so many young people want to continue with their education post-16. But it does come with financial challenges, and operational challenges as well for FE colleges.

Now, I want to see all of those young people being offered places in colleges, and as many of them their first choice courses, where that is possible. So, what I am doing is working very closely with Medr, who are monitoring the situation, and we will also, in the financial considerations that we also have to take account of, be able to monitor the situation better in November, when the final sets of data around enrolments are presented and published. So, at the moment we are keeping a close watch on the situation and if finances allow, we will provide further support.

Just to say as well, Medr have already put £6.25 million into the FE system to support the current cohort, and that straddles into six months of this current academic year.

And is that for the Welsh language? Is this what we're talking about here, for the Welsh language? So, there's a disparity between north and south Wales in terms of that, so what can be done to address—? What is being done to address that?

I'm sorry, I thought you were talking about the wider pressures around—. So, just on the Welsh language.

Yes.

Well, clearly, just on the Welsh language aspect, there is some very good practice in north Wales already, as there is in other parts of Wales as well. So, what we need to do is roll out that good practice, right? And one of the difficulties is around bilingual provision. And as it happens, in a previous life, I did a thematic report for Estyn on what bilingual provision means. It's interpreted in many different ways. It could be just a 'bore da, shwmae' as they walk into the class. Or it could be a structured bilingual provision where elements of the oral work are through the medium of Welsh, and elements of the written work are through the medium of Welsh, and vice versa through the medium of English. So, we need to look at different models, and that is why I'm working with Medr and Colegau Cymru to come up with solutions that are tailored to the needs of learners.

Thanks, Deputy—. Ruth.

It was just to say, really, that at the moment Medr is operating with a fairly historic funding model around what Welsh-medium funding looks like in different areas. And I think that kind of, you know—. You referred to the north-south; there's more money going into colleges in north Wales as a result of that model. Medr are looking at that funding methodology. They've inherited a number of different models as they came together as an organisation, and work is under way to see how they can look at maybe distributing that funding to make sure that we can grow the language across Wales, through our colleges.

Yes, because one of the things I said in the question was that with Colegau Cymru, they are balancing very fine books here. So, what I'm concerned about is with this balancing of finances, where does the Welsh come into it, because that is going to have to be financed, isn't it? Do you know what I mean? If you've got learners that are learning as they go along, that's going to have to be financed as well.

So, these are considerations in budget discussions at the moment, and we are well aware of the pressures around Welsh medium, but the wider pressures as well in the FE sector.

Okay, thank you.

Also, it's important to note, Members, that we will return to budget scrutiny specifically with the Deputy Minister and those responsibilities when information about the budget is available to us, of course.

In terms of this theme, it's quite a broad one, and I noted yesterday that there had been a change to your responsibilities, which now includes youth work. So, I have a question, if I may. Will the Government consider publishing further guidance on how local authorities assess, plan for and support Welsh-medium youth work? That causes me some concern at the moment. I'm not certain that the frameworks and strategies are comprehensive in terms of Welsh-medium youth provision currently.

Well, if I may say, I'm very pleased to take on the responsibility for youth work for all sorts of reasons. I have some experience of being in that sector years ago. And I know how important youth work is, not only in relation to the Welsh language, but in providing opportunities for young people to come together. It's an opportunity for them to socialise, it helps with mental health, and also it is a space where people can advise them on learning pathways and provide social and health support to them at the same time.

But in relation to the Welsh language specifically, I've had a number of conversations with officials, and again, I've made it entirely clear that when the five-year strategies are presented to me, I expect to see a very clear commitment to Welsh-medium provision in all parts of Wales—not in certain areas, but in all parts of Wales. There are young people in Welsh-medium education in every single county in Wales, and I expect to see that being reflected in these five-year strategies. I will be entirely honest: if I remain unconvinced that those strategies meet those demands, I will send them back to be reviewed.

Thank you very much for giving us that assurance, Deputy Minister. Are there any further questions on Welsh-medium education and training? Lis.

This is about youth work.

Oh, yes, of course, youth work.

I have a question written down here, but from my experience of working in the field with the mentrau iaith, I saw that youth work was ad hoc throughout the country through the medium of Welsh. It's very important that they have those opportunities, not just within the school walls, but also outside, in their communities. Because that's where young people learn to use the Welsh language in their own community, in appropriate spaces where they can develop their experiences.

But what I wanted to ask is—. It's important to me—and I hope that you would agree, really—that the Urdd, which is the organisation that is qualified and expert in that field, co-operates and collaborates with the mentrau iaith throughout the country as well. That's important, that co-operation, because the two organisations offer something entirely different to each other in our communities. So, the question that I wanted to ask was: how can the Welsh Government ensure that young people throughout Wales have consistent access to youth services through the medium of Welsh from qualified providers?

That's a hugely important question. We have organisations, such as the Urdd, such as the mentrau iaith, such as young farmers clubs, in some areas, who hold their activities through the medium of Welsh. I would expect to see those five-year strategies from local authorities in the youth work sector reflecting their desire to work in partnership with these organisations. That is important. Simultaneously, I think, in the long term, it's important to develop the capacity of local authorities and their youth work departments too in relation to their ability to deliver through the medium of Welsh. Because this is a responsibility for everyone, not only the Urdd and the mentrau iaith. It's a responsibility of local authorities, and I don't want them to wash their hands of that responsibility either. So, there are short-term solutions and there is capacity development over the longer term too.

I personally want to ensure that we see local authorities throughout Wales not just using the Welsh language as a way of getting the Welsh language into English-medium schools, but for things to happen through the medium of Welsh for Welsh speakers.

And I think that I, like many around this table, have seen too many action plans in the past that are tokenistic in relation to the Welsh language.

Yes, exactly.

I won't allow that to happen.

Fine.

Thank you. Lynne.

Good morning.

Good morning.

On youth work, obviously, the five-year plans are an important part of the picture, and it's good to hear you say that you will return the plans if you're not satisfied with them. Hopefully that also goes for other aspects of the plans. You're probably aware that there was a lot of concern amongst the third sector about where they would fit into this picture. So, can I ask you, when you get the plans in, if you think that they are not sufficiently working in partnership with the third sector, whether you will also take that action with local authorities?

But I also wanted to ask about the national body. The plans are part of the picture, but the national body was announced in order to give youth work that national profile and drive right across Wales. So, just to ask if you are committed to the national body, whether there's any update on timescales for the development of that.

In principle, I'm absolutely supportive of the whole idea of having a national body that will co-ordinate the whole sector, and raise the profile as well, and make sure that the importance of youth work goes into all levels of local authority work, and developing those partnerships you were talking about with third sector bodies, who have a wealth of experience in this field.

You will know that we are having difficult financial discussions at the moment, and we've made no decision about the timescale for developing this national body yet; it's under consideration. In principle I want it to happen. Whether we look at an interim set-up before we get to that point is open to consideration, so no decision has been made yet. But it's certainly something in principle that I support.

So, is the funding that was set aside to develop the national body still in the budget?

Everything is in the budget at the moment, but you will know from your own experience that being in Government means that you have to make tough choices. So, I'm not saying that we've decided on anything yet, but that is just in the round of discussions.

Thank you, Deputy Minister. Thank you, Members, for what we've had so far. But we'll move on now to the next theme, if possible, which is vocational education and training. Again, a number of people want to come in here. I'll turn to Art first of all, if possible, please.

Very happy to. Minister, good morning to you and your team. I want to try and focus in specifically on those not in education, employment or training. It's something I experienced myself from the age of 14 to 16. I had a rare blood disorder that left me immunodeficient, so I left school with nothing myself. At the time I left school, some of the more traditional routes that were available, such as going into the armed forces, manufacturing apprentices, were much higher in prevalence than they are now. We can see already that the trend is starting to go alarmingly in the wrong direction for those that have fallen into being NEET. From the latest data for December 2025, we're at 17 per cent of 16 to 24-year-olds, and that was a 5.5 per cent increase on the year before. I'm wanting to try and find ways in which we can actually alleviate this problem for young people, and not lead them to, potentially, just a life of being economically inactive. I note from one of your contributions in the Chamber that you had stated that there will be some academic input placed into this, and I was just wondering when that is likely to be available for the committee to see.

So, we're talking about the NEET agenda here, and it's very distressing when you look at the numbers of NEETs in Wales. There are different sets of figures, but the more accurate ones seem to suggest that about 47,000 young people in Wales are NEETs, about 14 per cent; some figures indicate higher levels than that. It's a situation we've inherited, but we are absolutely giving this need our full attention, because we need a different approach.

We know that Sir Alan Milburn has produced a report, and the final report will be available in the next month, I believe, but he's already shown us some indicative figures and findings as well. Two points. We need a holistic approach to the challenge of the NEET situation, because of young people, as Alan Milburn actually showed us, 70 per cent of them are economically inactive. That is, they are not in a place where they are ready for work, and that is they face so many personal barriers: it could be mental health, it could be trauma induced, it could be additional learning needs, it could be transport, it could be housing, it could be childcare. There are so many issues.

So, we had a meeting yesterday, the Minister for Enterprise, Connectivity and Energy and I, on how we have a collegiate approach to tackling the NEET agenda. And what we realised was that in order to have that holistic, whole-Government approach, we would have to bring colleagues in from health, from social care, from housing and from transport, because it is a multidimensional issue. So, what we need to do is support those people furthest away from the labour market, and it will need all kinds of different interventions to get them to a place where they are ready to apply for jobs. So, you have that work to do, and then, on the other side, you have people who are ready for work—graduates, in many cases, who have applied for hundreds of jobs—and can't get employment. So, we need to improve the economic prosperity of Wales and work with employers to create more job opportunities, which is why we want to support apprenticeships and why we want to develop the skills agenda so that providers, the Welsh Government and employers work together to understand where the emerging sectors are likely to be in the future. And that is why we are undertaking this skills audit, which will be publishing its work in March or April of next year.

Cheers for that, Minister. It's very nice to hear of the holistic approach that's going on, because the barriers are there and if we can knock down the barriers it makes it easier for that person to get back on track.

I'd like to put on record some of the great organisations within Newport and Islwyn that do some of this work. I've visited two—Newport Youth Academy and EET Group—and I'm still to try and get to see ACT Training. Between them, some of the things they come back and say are that they are there to help, but funding and knowing what the future pathway is going to look like for funding would enable them to do so much more. One of the areas I struggled with when we were starting to look through the scrutiny papers that were here was to actually see where that is and how much it is. Is that something that you could look to make more clear in the 2027-28 budget?

I'm very much aware of the importance of third sector bodies and community groups, and it relates back to the discussion we had around youth work as well, because youth support is so important as a gateway for those young people to have the best support and advice on learning pathways that will potentially lead them to jobs. We know that the financial situation is pretty severe at the moment and we are trying to juggle all of these needs and also to be aware that the NEET agenda is something that we are absolutely committed to supporting. I don't know whether the officials want to come in on any of the discussions we've had around youth and ALN and NEET?

No, but I think it's probably worth just noting that that pathway to progression is a programme for government commitment in terms of mapping out what progression looks like through the system. And I think that's perhaps where, previously, people have come up against dead ends. So, I think that's something that we're going to be working on in earnest over the next few years.

Yes.

And the last one, if I may, is one of the particular barriers they bring up that I don't think we have discussed yet is around where you're going to step into the apprentice world—hopefully from the side of NEET into an apprentice or going back into further education—is the actual base level of attainment to then step up to that next level. And I think that's one where, if you are able to speak to the third sector, they will give you the list, quite clearly, of the support they need around being able to conduct that.

Well, apprenticeships are vitally important and it is something that I passionately feel that we need to support. It is a different pathway into jobs. With the apprenticeship schemes we have, currently, Welsh Government is putting £150 million into supporting apprenticeships. And I would want to see Careers Wales and schools providing even more information to young people at an earlier age about different options that are available to them, which includes apprenticeship schemes. And it is why I am holding a skills summit on 8 October in Swansea, bringing together apprenticeship providers, FE, HE, employers—some of the biggest employers in Wales are coming to that event as well. So, we have, on the one hand, the need for a pipeline of young people coming through the system, but we need them to come through a system that aligns with emerging sectors. So, the skills audit, which I mentioned earlier on, will help us identify what the growing sectors are likely to be in the next five, 10 years. So, what we need then is for providers to align provision with those future skills needs—so, tying in education to employment. And I want young people to know about those opportunities in their own regions, and some regions will have different needs in terms of employment skills. For example, I'm thinking about north Wales with the development around nuclear in Wylfa, and south-west Wales, where I live, around offshore wind energy and the technology around hydrogen and carbon capture. All of those will need specific skills. So, we want to align apprenticeship schemes and FE skills provision to those regional needs, but also the national needs, which include healthcare and other sectors as well. Ruth.

Just to mention a couple of other programmes that have been really successful over the last couple of years in this space, the junior apprenticeships programme, which is available now in seven out of our nine colleges, really targets those who are at school at the most risk of falling out of the system, and offering that blend of academic and vocational experience. Another area would be the tailored work experience programme, as well, that Careers Wales runs, and we've seen some real success there in terms of those who are at risk of being NEET, having that kind of experience of employment and vocational, and then being kept within the system.

Perfect, thanks.

Thank you. We'll return to apprenticeships, as it is a separate theme that we have. Art sneaked a question in there, but that's fine, Art, not a problem at all. I have a great number of speakers now. So, Sam, if you could come in.

Diolch, Chair. Thank you very much. Good morning, Deputy Minister.

Good morning.

Good to have you with us this morning. Just going back to the funding for our colleges, just to be really clear on this, colleges are saying that they are currently educating nearly 5,000 learners who aren't funded placements. Are you aware of any other areas in education where that takes place, where schools or universities are teaching students without funding to do the job?

I'm not aware that it affects other sectors in the same way. As I said earlier on, I think it's a success story around FE, but that brings about its own challenges. So, as I remarked earlier on, we are keeping a very close eye on developments in all the colleges across Wales, working with Medr and ColegauCymru. As I said, Medr have already put in £6.25 million, but I will be making the case, in these difficult discussions we're having around finance, for more money to be put in to support the FE provision.

Thanks, Minister. And do you think, therefore, it's a fair level playing field for colleges at the moment, if that's the case, where schools and universities are getting the funding required to do the job but colleges aren't?

Yes, and we want that level playing field, of course we do. And we want as many young people to go on to the courses they choose to go on to, because if we don't provide them with those opportunities—and I understand there are waiting lists in some colleges—then they are at risk of becoming NEET, which is the last thing we want, because they have made that very deliberate choice about their next step in their learning pathway. And if they come across a closed door, then that may be the only chance that they will have. So, we've got to support them as best we can.

Claire, would you like to come in?

Yes. As Ruth was saying earlier, I think it's probably worth noting that the funding methodology that was agreed with the sector about 10 years ago now is just not coping with the additional participation rates that we're seeing right now, and it's also complicated by additional complex learners going through the system. So, FE is dealing with a specific issue right now, and Medr are looking at that. So, I think it is something that we're taking very seriously.

And if I may, Chair, just briefly on this point—

Yes. I'll bring Lynne in then.

You mentioned earlier, Deputy Minister, the conversations you're having across the Cabinet to tackle some of these issues. Are they willing to chip in to support colleges, if that's the case? If they're sitting around the table and recognising the challenges that colleges ae facing and some of the opportunities that colleges can present, are they willing to chip in from their own budgets to support this issue?

Well, this is a live discussion, and I think colleagues around the Cabinet table are fully aware of the pressures on FE and also are fully cognisant of the pressures around the NEET agenda as well. So, it's a collective responsibility.

But if I can just add to Claire's point, we need, maybe, to look at the funding formula again, because it is based on the previous year's figures. So, if you suddenly have a spike, as we did in the last academic year, and this academic year, then there's always going to be a lag, there's always going to be a catch-up process. So, that is something, because of the learning we've experienced in the last and this academic year, that we have to take on board. But, also, there are demographic reasons as well as to why there's an increased number of young people in the system currently, but that is likely to fall, I think, from 2028 onwards. So, there are demographic issues that we have to take account of as well.

Diolch, Sam. Lynne.

Thank you. I think Sam makes a very important point about a level playing field, because, obviously, you've announced a review of higher education, but we know that there are these huge pressures in FE. And, for the record, the £6.25 million extra was in the last budget, so that's not new money. There's been no new money from the current Government and, every week that goes on, FE is under more pressure. So, I hope that when we get to November, there will be an announcement on that money. You've said maybe we should look at the funding formula. I think that should be more than a 'maybe'. So, are you willing to commit, just as you've done with HE, to reviewing the way FE is funded, to put it on a more sustainable footing?

I'd like to ask, as well: obviously, in the budget next year, there's an identified £40 million gap in FE funding, and the sector are hearing that they could have, actually, a cut in funding, which is going to have a potentially huge impact if that's true, so what discussions are you having with Cabinet colleagues?

But I'd like to ask, as well: what assessment have you and officials made of whether you are putting Medr in a position where they're in breach of their legal duties under the tertiary education and research legislation, where they have a legal duty to provide for 16 to 19-year-olds, by not providing the funding that is necessary to meet their needs? And I would like an answer to all three questions, please.

Well, I'll answer the last one first. No-one has said that we are not going to provide money for FE to take account of the increased pressures. That decision hasn't been made. So, I think the point about Medr and the breach of legal duty is not appropriate at this time, and I don't think it will ever come to that as well.

On the first point you made, about the £6.25 million, I didn't say it was new money; I said that it was money that Medr had provided, and that it straddles six months, or thereabouts, of this current academic year. So, when we know the correct figures in November, that is when we will make a decision on how best we can support FE, bearing in mind that they provide high-quality vocational pathways and they are an integral part of the whole skills system in Wales. We want FE colleges to succeed and to carry on providing the high level of support that they provide at the moment. We see them as a crucial part of that tertiary landscape.

If I could just add a few things. On the funding methodology, as I mentioned earlier, Medr has inherited a number of different models and are looking at that at the moment. Given the demographic spike that we've got at the moment, that funding model will almost right itself in the next few years, but I think it's something where it's important to make sure that we don't go through this experience again. The other thing to mention is that Medr have given colleges flexibility in their own budgets to be able to put more money from adult learning into full-time 16 to 19 provision to ensure that they're meeting that statutory duty. So, colleges have been allowed to do that.

Thank you. Obviously there are trade-offs there, aren't there, in terms of adult learning and the commitments in the tertiary education and research legislation to adult learning.

Could I just ask about Jobs Growth Wales+? I know that it sits with the Minister for enterprise, and it's good to hear that you're having those discussions, but we know that organisations like ACT are really struggling with funding for some of their 16 to 19-year-old learners, and I've raised it in the Chamber. Those young people are at risk of becoming NEET. Although the funding sits in a different directorate, can you assure us that you're having those discussions about the sufficiency of funding for learners like that who are amongst the most vulnerable?

We understand the important role of Jobs Growth Wales+. It's a conversation I had with the Minister yesterday, when we were discussing the NEETs agenda, and we know that that programme is under pressure. But we are committed to extending Jobs Growth Wales+ for another year from March of next year. So, it will continue to March 2028, because it's an important programme. Where they fail to get that support from Jobs Growth Wales because of the pressures on the demand side of that programme, then they are referred to Careers Wales, who again, through Working Wales, can provide them with extra support, advice and guidance. So, nobody slips through the net, but we understand the pressures.

Thank you. I wanted to ask a question about the importance of developing vocational routes, but you've answered that, I think. That's something that's very important to me, particularly when we see more learners now who are unable to pursue academic or traditional routes because they have learning issues or because they prefer to work in a non-traditional setting and that's where they prosper. We've had an answer from you on that, but I'd like to ask one final question on this theme, if I may. How would you prioritise developing post-16 qualifications in Wales, considering that many qualifications are being abolished following qualification reforms in England, affecting the viability of level 2 and 3 qualifications in FE? Those courses will be unable to exist any longer unless we also review and reform our qualifications.

That is something that's hugely concerning for us. The education Minister and I have had a number of meetings with Qualifications Wales to look at that situation. As everyone knows, the education department in Westminster has decided to take a different route in terms of how they provide vocational qualifications. They have V courses and a number of other things that will transform the situation there. The upshot of that, of course, is that vocational education boards will perhaps be defunded in the future, which then has implications for us in Wales, because our vocational system is very closely aligned with the provision in terms of qualifications in England. So, in the conversations that we've had, the Minister and I have made it clear that we want to move position—not to emulate what is happening in England, but we want to move to a place where the post-16 qualifications are made for Wales. Our needs, our educational landscape and our language and culture mean that we have a very different position here in Wales. There is a risk that there may be a hiatus or an interim period as we move from one system to the other, but Qualifications Wales is having conversations with the education boards at the moment to ensure that we fill that gap and buy time for ourselves to introduce made-in-Wales qualifications.

Thank you. If there are no further questions on this theme, we will move on to higher education. I know that many people want to come in on this theme of HE. Lynne, I'll turn to you first of all.

Thank you. You won't be surprised to hear me ask about the review of Seren. I'm really worried about it. You've talked about combining Reaching Wider and Seren, and they are two very different programmes. I'd like to know initially what the process is going to be for taking that work forward. There is an evaluation ongoing of Seren. It would be good to have an update on the dates for that and to know what you're willing to share with the committee. A piece of work was also commissioned to look at how we make sure that Seren doesn't miss some of the brightest learners, which isn't the same as opening it to everyone. Can we have an update on that work, please? A commitment was made by me in the last committee meeting that I attended that a financial update would be provided to the predecessor committee on Seren, but because dissolution happened before the last meeting of this committee, that has never been provided. I think it would be good for the committee to have some comprehensive information on Seren. And I've got some questions on plan 2 at some point then.

Thank you, Lynne. We've had numerous discussions around Seren. It is clearly in our manifesto that we want to review Seren. Many of us believe, including myself, that the emphasis had changed during the course of Seren to encourage young people—this is the perception—to leave Wales to study elsewhere, mainly across the border in England. That had unintended consequences for our universities here in Wales. My priority is to support our universities—eight of them we have here in Wales—because we've seen over the years that enrolments in those universities have gone down. I don't believe that the Seren programme has helped our Welsh universities.

I don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater, because there are so many good elements in Seren that I want to keep, and you've alluded to one that is extremely important, namely to provide that stretch, that challenge to the most able and talented young people. We know that that is maybe one element of the whole education system that we haven't quite got right: how do we challenge them even more? That has to remain in whatever this new programme will look like.

But I'm also concerned about reaching out to those young people in disadvantaged communities, which is what the Reaching Wider programme is doing. I want to see more of those considering higher education as an option. Our levels of engagement with higher education for young people from disadvantaged backgrounds are lower than any other part of the United Kingdom. That is not where we want to be. I want to raise the ambitions and the aspirations of those young people, but also provide the stretch for the more able and talented, and that is the work that officials are doing at the moment around shaping this new programme.

Around the evaluation, that is currently being done. I can't remember the date, so I'm going to turn to officials to see if they can help me on this.

It's towards the end of this year. We can give you more detail on the evaluation and on the financial side. You mentioned the process to that. We're not going to be reshaping Seren and trying to bring in the more disadvantaged elements, as the Minister pointed out, in isolation. We're establishing a stakeholder group with Universities Wales, ColegauCymru, other parts of the sector, schools, et cetera, to make sure that whatever we do put in place really meets the needs of learners and brings in those views from people who've been involved in delivering Seren and Reaching Wider up to now. They're going to be absolutely critical in that.

Will that group include Oxford and Cambridge?

We will be talking to Oxford and Cambridge as part of this. Whether they're on the group, I don't know. I'll get back to you.

Lynne, did you want to come in with your plan 2 question?

I haven't had an answer on the refocusing work—I can't remember what it was called—to make sure that young people like the asylum seeker we had at the celebration who are really able and are up for that stretch aren't missed.

Absolutely. I can give you a stone-clad commitment that that will absolutely remain.

Okay. Well, if the committee could have a comprehensive note on Seren—

Yes.

If I can move on to plan 2, there was a commitment not to undertake the threshold freeze on plan 2 loans that was announced in England. It was also clear that that would be a matter for the incoming Government to take forward. I'd be keen to have an update on whether we're still committed in Wales to not putting young people through that threshold freeze, what discussions there have been with HM Treasury on this, and whether there's been any progress on the workaround to enable us to have a different system in Wales.

That, as you know, Lynne, is a hugely complex area—student loans, student fees, repayment thresholds, caps and so on. We haven't made a decision yet, and we are still discussing. The wider picture, if I can start with that, will be one of the priorities of the panel reviewing higher education in Wales, because we want to get the balance right between what is right for the institutions themselves, how they can get funding through student fees, and what is right for our learners as well, the students themselves, because what we've seen over the last few years is student fees going up and up, and their debt increasing year by year to a point where young people are now openly asking themselves, 'Do I really want to go to university and be burdened with this lifelong debt?' It is really important to get the balance right, and also to get value for money for what the Welsh Government is putting in in terms of grant support. All of that is currently being discussed. We've made no absolute decision yet around plan 2, but obviously, with the Treasury breathing down our necks, we will have to make a decision soon. But I'm not in a position today to tell you what the decision is.

You said that this is a matter for the review, but the review is a comprehensive piece of work, and I know that the Treasury want a decision on this, and that a workaround will take time. Are you able to give the committee any indication of when that will be? Because also, young people in Wales need certainty about whether they're going to be subjected to this freeze.

Of course they do, yes. There's the short-term decision around the plan and the freeze, which we will have to make in the next couple of weeks, but there's the longer term plan as well, around how we support our university sector, and also bearing in mind how our students can bear the debt, as well. I don't know whether—.

Shall I come in? You mentioned the workaround, and there are a couple of things. We are still actively talking as officials to the Student Loans Company and the UK Government about all of those options. It's probably also worth noting the UK Parliament's Treasury Committee report on this, which the UK Government replied to recently. There isn't a clear sense yet of whether they will retain that freeze in the budget discussions they've got. So, we are retaining discussions with the UK Government around this as we assess, as you'll be aware, that balancing act of the right thing to do around the freeze.

Claire's absolutely right. If I can just add to that, we aren't clear, therefore, what the UK Government's intentions are around plan 2. If they change their position, that changes the whole situation for us as well. So I think it's a wait to see what the UK Government are doing. But all of this will come out in the autumn budget, so that's only a couple of weeks away.

One final question, Lynne, before we move on.

Just one final question on mental health. I care about higher education and further education, but a particular frustration is that £2 million was made available to Medr, which would include the roll-out of the mental health university liaison project. That was a recommendation of the predecessor committee back in 2023, and we're still in a position where only Cardiff and south-east Wales have that support. I believe that that support is vital to look after young people who are away from home, from their communities, from their GPs. What are you going to do to make sure that Medr actually deliver on this?

I am committed to ensuring that mental health and additional learning needs support and the general well-being of our learners remains high on this Government's agenda. But on the specific programme that you refer to, I don't know whether officials can help me in understanding how that has been rolled out across the sector.

This is something that was developed by Cardiff University, and there have been issues, I think, around data sharing and how that would work in terms of a roll-out. I know it's something that Medr is reflecting on at the moment—

They've been reflecting a long time, Ruth.

They have, yes. But I think it's something that they're looking at, to see what the best process is and what the best programme would look like in this space.

Behind your question is the whole issue, which we discussed earlier on, about supporting those most vulnerable young people, and to guide them through those learning pathways where they are most vulnerable. Absolutely, I am committed. Obviously, being fairly new in the job, I will be specifically talking to Medr about that. I haven't had that conversation yet, but I will.

Thanks.

Lynne, perhaps we can agree to follow up as a committee on that particular roll-out of that programme. As you say, if they've been reflecting for a while, we need to understand why. Diolch. Mair.

Thank you very much. Deputy Minister, you've already talked about participation rates, and I think that participation rates in Wales are the lowest across the UK and under 30 per cent. So, it would be good to hear about some of the schemes that you have in mind in order to strengthen uptake of higher education and ensure that more learners have access to HE. So, it would be good if you could expand on that. In terms of what you were saying there about student loans, that probably does put off some pupils and students from going to university. I will move on to a further question, but I'd like you to expand on that point.

Universities play an essential role in providing the higher-level skills and research and innovation that are required by Wales. However, the data from HESA that we've seen most recently has shown a substantial decrease in the financial position of the university sector, with the combined operational deficit increasing from £76.6 million to £130.9 million in one year, and six out of the eight Welsh universities are in deficit. So, what is the Government going to do to ensure that Welsh universities remain financially viable and competitive so that they can continue to play their vital role? Could you expand a little further on the review of the higher education sector? My concern as well, in terms of the timetable of that review, is that we will perhaps see cuts happening before that report from the review comes out. That is a great concern, obviously, throughout the sector. Thank you.

You're absolutely right, and that's the main reason why I established this panel as one of the first decisions that I made, having been appointed to this role. The situation is concerning at most of our universities, as you've said: there is debt across the HE sector of around £130 million, and we know that some universities—and we've seen this with the recent job losses—are facing serious financial difficulties.

There are two approaches. There is the long-term approach, which relates to the panel's work, and that looks at striking the right balance between supporting universities through fees and ensuring that students can feel that they can afford to choose to go to university. So, that work needs to be undertaken by the panel.

But in the shorter term, Medr is keeping a close eye on the situation, and I receive almost weekly updates from Medr on the state of some of our universities. We do have some back-up plans in place in case there is a requirement for the Welsh Government to step in to support, but we're not in that position as of yet. The conversations are confidential. Of course I can't share those with you as a committee, but I am highly aware of the pressures they're facing.

Thank you very much for that answer. In considering the review, you've emphasised that there will be engagement with stakeholders and that that will be central to that review, and that an advisory group of stakeholders is being established. Can you give us greater clarity about how students, staff, trade unions and student unions will be included in that review, and what timetable you have in mind for establishing that group?

That's a very good question. As you know, I announced last week that Professor Patrick Prendergast would lead that review as chair. Hopefully next week, I will announce the names of the panellists who will make up that small group looking at the future of our universities. But alongside the panel of experts, there will also be a panel or group of stakeholders, and among those stakeholders, all the trade unions will be represented—those involved in the tertiary sector. There will be representation from providers around the table, and Medr, naturally, will be there too to keep oversight of all of that activity. But the job of that stakeholder group is to feed information and evidence into the panel and to be some sort of consultative board, if you like, for the panel, so that both work together to get the best possible outcome for tertiary education in Wales.

And just to add that NUS will be part of that.

Yes—sorry. All the unions, that's right, including NUS, will be on that stakeholder group.

Thank you very much. I'm glad to hear that. I come from a student union background, so that explains my interest in that regard.

In terms of the review and the work that will proceed, one of the things that I was interested in around discussions that the Welsh Government and Medr have had with the sector, or are likely to have as part of the review, is new models of co-operation, including sharing services, working together on procurement, in order to reduce administrative costs and protect research, education and the student experience, and doing so throughout HE and also possibly FE. I believe that Ireland have a joint procurement system, and I think therefore that there is an opportunity for savings to be made and for there to be more efficient working. Wales is a small nation, so it may be possible to do that. Will that be an element that will be considered?

Can I come in there? I had a question on that, and Mair makes a good point. My question was: will the review encompass the effectiveness and efficiency of the processes and procedures of universities? So, exactly as you said, bringing those processes and procedures together and collaborating, where possible, to work more efficiently. I think that that is something that needs more consideration.

Thank you. I'll combine those two questions. Certainly, the panel will look at every single one of the aspects that you've raised. What I have said to the chair, very clearly—and of course it was a conversation through the medium of English—is that nothing is off the table. That's the remit. There are no restrictions as to what they can choose to look at. I expect them to look at ways of saving costs by collaborating around administration and procurement, very much so. But one of the questions for me is what kind of universities do we need for the future. As the economic world changes, we need our universities to reflect that as well. One of the things that I very much liked about Professor Patrick Prendergast's experience was that he is the chair of a cluster of universities in the south-east of Ireland at present, and these are technical universities. They emphasise, as perhaps our old polytechnics used to do, this emphasis on vocational skills, on technical skills. I am very eager to see him bringing that experience into the conversation, to see whether this is something that our universities could consider as we move into the future.

Thank you, Deputy Minister. This is not necessarily a question simply based on HE, but a question that encapsulates a number of our themes: could you provide us with more information on the future funding for Taith?

We know that Taith has been a very successful scheme. One of the most positive features of Taith is that it managed to reach groups in the third sector and to reach groups that are underrepresented. These are groups of young people who perhaps might not have had opportunities through the old Erasmus scheme, because that scheme wasn't tailored for those types of people.

I will never forget getting a presentation on Taith in the previous Senedd and meeting with a group of young people—I believe they came from Gwynedd. I don't remember where they'd been. GISDA is where they came from, I think. I don't remember where they visited—it might have been Estonia, or somewhere like that. Some of them had not been to Cardiff before, not to mention travelling abroad. We heard their evidence on how that had changed their lives, their world view, and how they saw their future in a new light, that their ambitions were changing on the basis of that experience.

We have Erasmus+, which is coming into existence, and thank goodness for it, because that is an important financial resource for the tertiary sector and for youth work. But I am eager for us to retain the most important elements of Taith and keep them going, alongside Erasmus. And these are conversations I'm currently having about how much of our budget we can put into retaining or keeping Taith going. But I do believe that there is still a place for us to support those hard-to-reach groups in order to give them opportunities, whilst, at the same time, we develop the capacity of the sector to go for Erasmus funding, which will change the game entirely in terms of the amount of money available.

Diolch. Catherine.

I was going to ask a question, really, about Taith and Erasmus. So, last time Erasmus was available, there was a whole plethora of issues surrounding Erasmus. So, I'm hoping that Erasmus+, now, will be an improvement on that. And it was good to hear you talking about retaining some of the elements of Taith. So, what I'm wondering is: are we able to get a timetable of when those decisions will be made on Taith, when it's going to be continuing, and in what form, and how Erasmus is going to work alongside that?

Yes, good. So, the decision on Taith will be made in time for the budget. It will be a line, hopefully, in that budget, which will show how much financial support we can provide for Taith. But the calls for applications for Erasmus will be opening up in November. So, we have a kind of a twin-track approach. We've got to ensure that Taith, in some form, remains a live process for people, but also we need to raise awareness around the huge potential to access the Erasmus+ funding as well. So, there are calls for applications to be submitted in November, and I think the window closes in February 2027. So, it's only a small window of opportunity, and I know that our tertiary sector people are working on applications as we speak, to get them ready for that window opening in November.

Okay. So, I'm hoping, then, that, the way that Erasmus works now, it has been updated, because I know there were issues with paperwork with students last time—students coming home and they weren't matching with the standards here et cetera, et cetera. So, I'm just hoping those have been ironed out and they're going to be looked at in relation to that.

So, UK Government have offered the administration of Erasmus+ to the British Council. And I met with the chief executive of the British Council, and the Wales manager, Ruth Cox—. Is she the Wales manager—

She is, yes.

—only last week. So, some of these issues around making it easier for applications to be made were discussed. We also discussed with them as well the issue around bilingualism and that application forms and the branding around Erasmus+ are bilingual. So, we've had assurances that that will happen.

It's just worth noting as well that, as officials, obviously we're working really closely with Department for Education officials in terms of the development of the new Erasmus programme, and have fed in a lot of the best practice and the learnings from the Taith programme, particularly in terms of that kind of wider engagement that Taith has managed to achieve. So, that's gone into the thinking on how Erasmus+ has been developed.

And I think it's worth saying as well that Erasmus officials recognise the success of Taith, and have taken on board the learning from Taith. So, I hope that is reflected in how they score and assess applications as well.

Thank you. If there are no further questions on HE—

—if there are no further questions on higher education—

—we will now move on to apprenticeships. And we've touched a little on apprenticeships already, but we'll return to the topic, because I know that a number of our Members are very interested in it. I'll turn to you now, Beca, please.

Thank you.

It will come on automatically.

You mentioned earlier the skills summit and that some of the biggest providers would be—[Inaudible.] I think that's wonderful, because, in my area, a rural area, and small and medium-sized enterprises are hugely important. And what we've heard is that it's a challenge for them to maintain and offer apprenticeships, although many of them are eager to do so. And often—[Inaudible.]—young people—[Inaudible.]—it's very challenging financially for them to offer that, and that's particularly true in my area. So, how will you seek to support that particular sector?

We acknowledge that that is a challenge for SMEs. If I can take a step back, this audit of skills that is currently being held will assist every sector to identify where the needs and the demand for skills will lie in future. As it happens, in the conversation that I had with the Minister for the economy yesterday, we were discussing how the Welsh Government can provide greater support to employers, be they small or large, so that they can take on more apprentices, and those discussions will continue. So, I can't give you a clear answer today, but what I can say is that that conversation is an important one, and I hope that we will be able to bring some kind of strategy forward so that we can see what type of incentives we can offer SMEs to take on apprentices, or even to offer work experience for NEETs, for instance, so that we can offer softer pathways for them into the workplace.

Thank you very much for that response. It is so hugely important, and particularly important in my own area.

Another issue that arises—. The aspiration, clearly, with apprenticeships is that young people can step into that world at any point during their lifetimes. But another issue that comes up is that, when people start apprenticeships at 18, rather than 16, when they reach those employment thresholds, they get very expensive to employ at that point, and have lower level skills than an individual that may have started at 16. So, people who start apprenticeships at 18 are perhaps at a disadvantage because they've entered into that world later. So, if the aspiration is that young people can step into apprenticeships at any point, how do we tackle those problems for the employer?

Yes, that is a good point that you make there. What I feel we need to do, generally, is to raise the profile of apprenticeships as an alternative route into the world of work. We have several programmes that provide that support and information to young people. But if I may turn to the officials, so that I can also understand what programmes are available for various ages, which was the point that you were making.

I think it's worth noting at the moment that we're going under a bit of a programme of reform for apprenticeships. So, the responsibility will be transferring over to Medr in 2027. They are currently looking at new frameworks and all of those issues that you raise about those skill levels and those entry points, and particularly around some of the complexity that SMEs face in terms of the system, are being thought through as part of that reform of apprenticeships. We're currently consulting on a new apprenticeship specification, and that consultation is open until December. And, again, that is looking at how then powers will transfer over to Medr, which give them the duty to look at all those issues that you flagged.

So, it's a work in progress is the point that you're making.

Yes.

May I—?

Yes, of course.

Now, there's an issue, isn't there, with people not completing their apprenticeships, and I do see, among the reasons noted for that, the two most obvious reasons are personal reasons and also that they went into work. Now, do we know whether those people who have left apprenticeships because they've gone into work—? Have they gone into work that is associated with the areas they've been training for, or have they had to leave the scheme because they have to earn money wherever they can? Do we know the stories that lie behind those statistics?

Well, I don't know the answer, and perhaps officials could help, but one thing that is clear is that the percentages that fail to complete their apprenticeship courses are higher in certain sectors than others. And that suggests that perhaps there is a shortage of employment available to them at the end of their journey, but there is also that more personal element that you mentioned too. So, through the work that's currently ongoing, where Medr will take on the strategic responsibility for the future of apprenticeships, we do need to ensure that there is personal support available too, around mental health support and personal circumstances, disability, childcare— whatever those barriers are, we should be aware and we should have systems in place to support those people.

But the important thing—just in looking at the broader point that you make—is that, through this skills audit, I very much hope that we will then be able to align future apprenticeships to those growth sectors. We know in Gwynedd, for example, that there is a shortage of people with different construction skills in order to build the social housing that we want to see built, and also, the improvement of the current housing stock through retrofitting. We need particular skills to do that and we need to ensure that that skills pipeline is provided through our skills and apprenticeship providers.

Thank you very much.

Thank you. We did have a school in the gallery, but I didn't have an opportunity to welcome them. They've now departed, but I hope that they enjoyed the discussion. But I did want to acknowledge that they had been in engaging with us today as part of our session. Mair, I'll turn to you now.

Thank you very much—

Sorry. Can I interrupt? They're coming back in—they may be another group. Could I welcome you, the school who has just joined us? A warm welcome to you. We'll just give you a little wave of the hands this morning. We're talking about something that's really important. All the work that we are doing is important, of course, but we're talking about apprenticeships this morning with the Deputy Minister. And I will now turn to Mair to ask her question.

Thank you very much. There are a number of things that you mentioned there that are quite pertinent to my constituency. You mentioned construction skills, for example, and Beca and I went to Academi Adra, where they have a particular scheme in relation to young people undertaking construction apprenticeships and courses. And in another part of my constituency—and you've already mentioned the Wylfa or the Gwyndod project—there will be a huge demand for construction skills there too. So, the audit and the new apprenticeships programme, hopefully, will contribute to identifying those gaps too.

And you've already answered one of my questions, in a way, in terms of—. Sorry, I've gone blank. I can't remember what I was trying to say. Yes, it's the element that Beca referred to there in terms of working with employers. But I wanted to refer to the apprenticeship levy. Now, given that that levy is not devolved, what discussions have you had with the UK Government on ensuring that Wales benefits from the current system and how does that work steer your reaction to the new funding model that Medr is developing to increase the number of apprenticeships and more importantly, perhaps, to increase completion levels?

And I've just remembered what I wanted to mention earlier. In terms of the new apprenticeships programme, I think it is crucial that we—. What will be the measure of success there in terms of both the number of apprenticeships and the completion rates and why people don't complete? But the main question was on the apprenticeship levy.

Well, the apprenticeship levy is an interesting one. It's a plan for the UK, but we have to remember that Wales has a different model of apprenticeship support, and I think that our model is better, because the nature of the economy in Wales is very different. What you have in England is a number of large companies, big industries, and they pay a levy into a central pot, and then they get payback for that investment in support for apprenticeships. In Wales, 95 per cent of companies in our economy are SMEs. So, our provision in terms of apprenticeship support means that every company, whatever their size, has an opportunity to be supported when it comes to apprenticeships. In England, it's only those who pay the levy who get those benefits from it. So, our approach is different, and I believe it's more suitable for the Welsh economy.

Thank you.

Thank you, Mair.

Sam, just checking that you wanted to come in.

Yes, on this particular issue, Chair. Thank you.

No problem.

On the apprenticeship levy—and thank you for your response there, Deputy Minister—one of the challenges that some employers have, those who are paying into the levy, because they meet the threshold required to, is that the apprenticeship options don't suit their business needs. So, you have this slightly strange situation where you have businesses paying significant sums into a levy but are not able to access any apprentice at the back of it, because, of course, there are only four apprenticeship options here in Wales: digital, engineering, advanced manufacturing and construction. Whereas, in England, there are around 170 different options, covering all sectors, so those paying into the levy are able to have apprentices serving in those businesses. So, I wonder if that's an anomaly that you think should be addressed, because it does seem a bit strange that there are businesses paying into something and they get nothing out of it.

That's an interesting take on it. That is a scheme run by the UK Government, and I think the issue is around the apprenticeship levy that they are running. I would want us, because we're a smaller country and we understand our needs, to work on that regional and national level to understand better what those sectors are. You gave us a list of some of them there. That may well be appropriate for some parts of Wales, but, for other parts of Wales, we would need a different approach and different sectors. That is why I think our apprenticeship support is more tailored to regional needs than the apprenticeship levy.

Forgive me, the issue actually is the limited number of options of apprenticeships in Wales. So, whilst, yes, it is controlled at UK level, the choice of which courses are available in Wales is a decision for us here in Wales. So, currently, there are just four limited options that people can go into an apprenticeship on here in Wales, and they are digital, engineering, advanced manufacturing and construction, which are all very important and good. But if you happen to be in a business that has nothing to do with those four areas, you're still paying into the levy and you cannot have any apprentices in Wales to support your business. That just seems a bit perverse to me.

That is why the skills audit is so important, so that we understand on a regional and national level where those sectors, the growth sectors, are, so that when small and medium-sized businesses invest, or larger businesses invest, in apprenticeships, they get the skills or they get the support for the skills they need. That is why we need a more coherent approach to apprenticeships and skills based on evidence, and based on what employers are telling us as well—the feedback from them. So, that is why this whole audit and the summit next month will give us that evidence base.

Thanks. Thanks, Chair.

Thank you, Sam. Lis, please.

In my experience as an employer, before I came here, I just saw that there were challenges there in that smaller SMEs and people in the third sector didn't always understand everything to do with apprenticeships and everything to do with apprenticeships and how they can plug into it. I think that we need to raise awareness about that. And also, of course, as a menter iaith, when we'd go in and ask for apprenticeships—and we did do so several times—but the ability to have someone who was able to provide and support through the medium of Welsh was a problem in our areas. So, that's an example of the obstacles that exist out there.

I have something prepared here, because I want confirmation from you about a few things and I wanted to get it right. You have talked positively about how important apprenticeships are in Wales and how much of a role they play. But as the Government considers the findings of the national skills audit and prepares for the skills summit for the future, what further commitment can you give that apprenticeships will receive the same status, acknowledgement and priority as sixth forms, FE and HE? And will you confirm that you will work with the Minister for education to ensure that this equality or parity is reflected in the information, advice and support that young people receive in schools and from Careers Wales, so that apprenticeships are seen as a pathway that is equally important for careers?

Thank you. Two hugely important questions. I'll start with the importance of awareness raising around apprenticeships as an option for young people. First of all, they need to understand as early as years 7, 8 or 9 in secondary schools that the traditional pathways aren't the only options available to them, and that the apprenticeships route is a successful and effective one too in terms of developing their skills. We must also raise awareness among larger and smaller companies who perhaps haven't taken up enough opportunities in that sector.

In terms of the Welsh-medium sector, I have told Medr very clearly that I want to see more Welsh-medium apprenticeship provision. It is so minuscule at the moment. The Urdd, of course, has done excellent work in the sector in terms of developing Welsh-medium apprenticeships in various different areas. So, the model is there, the demand is there, and what we need now is the Government, as I've already mentioned, to drive that quite clearly and to state that we want to see more of that happening through the medium of Welsh.

The second question is very close to my heart. I want to see the same status and value placed on apprenticeships and vocational skills as are given to more academic pathways. We need to remove this snobbery and we should encourage young people to consider career pathways through these vocational courses, as we give that parity of esteem to both. That will happen naturally as we move to schools providing the VCSEs in 2027. So, a year from now, schools will be providing vocational courses alongside the more academic courses. So, from that point onwards, young people will see that there are alternative pathways for them, and I think that that will transform the situation from that point onwards.

Thank you very much.

Thank you very much. Art.

It was just seeking a point of clarity. I don't know whether I myself was sure, on the last question that Sam asked you, whether we got a complete answer to it. What I'd like to pose is: as you're going to run the skills audit report, et cetera, and, post that, will more sectors be added to the current list of four?

You mean in the context of the apprenticeship levy.

Yes, correct.

Okay. So, the apprenticeship levy is run through the UK Government, so that's not a devolved issue, that particular levy, but we have our own support for apprenticeships. So, I don't know whether—. I've tried to explain—.

And that's the area I'm trying to zone in on. On our own, there are only four current sectors where companies can draw on. Post your skills audit, where you find there are actually other sectors—

There will be other sectors identified.

Will that list be added to?

That would be a discussion with the UK Government.

Yes. That is not a devolved matter, so we can certainly make representations to the UK Government, but it's not a devolved issue.

Okay.

Diolch. Catherine, please.

Thank you. My question really is about the provider, I guess, rather than the students coming through. So, recently, Art and I visited a defence company in my constituency of Ebbw Vale called PMB, and we discovered a fantastic apprentice there who is now going towards a degree in engineering, which is absolutely fantastic news. But one of the main issues that they had with taking on apprentices, which is why they weren't taking on any more, is because they had to pay such a high proportion of the pension value, and so they were having to offer apprentices more than they would for their normal workers. So, I think there are various barriers around that. Another example of that is plumbers that I met recently, and garages, where one of the colleges had completely removed those courses away from themselves, and so they weren't then able to take on good apprentices. So, my question really is: how are you really going to make this attractive to providers at ground level?

Thank you. Obviously, I'm not aware of those specific examples you've given, but we need to change the whole world of apprenticeships in Wales, and that is why this skills audit is so, so important. It gives us that evidence base, and we're bringing employers in, providers in, together in one space. Now, the last skills audit was done 14 years ago, so we've got a lot of catching up to do to understand where we are and where we need to be. And when I met representatives of employer associations a couple of weeks ago from all kinds of trades and all kinds of industry, I think I had about 18, 20 of them around the table, and they were very enthusiastic about supporting apprentices, and they were asking me about Government support for that. So, I'm keen over the next couple of months to develop that dialogue between employers, the Welsh Government and providers to see what the best fit is, because we need that engagement to be based on labour market intelligence, and that it fits in as well with our national and regional priorities.

It's probably just worth noting as well, as Medr work to develop the new frameworks, those barriers, and encouraging people and working closely with SMEs, is very much part of it also. There's a duty on Medr as well as part of that work to think about Welsh-medium provision in terms of apprenticeships. So, that work will be ongoing.

Yes, we've spoken quite a bit about that wraparound support for apprentices, and that is something Medr clearly understand and are working through at the moment.

Yes, because employers won't take them on if there are too many barriers, so we've got to iron those out.

Absolutely. Absolutely, yes.

We'll move on to our final theme, Members, which is skills. We've discussed skills in detail already as part of our discussion today. But I'd like to begin with two questions, and I know that several others want to come in.

I have one question about the change in your responsibilities around training for the early years workforce. Can you give us an update on the training of that early years workforce to achieve the general childcare aims of this Government? And then I also noted, in terms of apprenticeships and the extensive discussion about numbers, that construction has been noted as a growth area for FE colleges, but the number of apprenticeships was down 48 per cent in the construction sector. We've heard from Sam and Art that construction is one of those four that are eligible for the levy. So, how would you support FE colleges and providers of apprenticeships to collaborate to meet this demand and increase the number of apprenticeships, therefore, in the construction sector?

Thank you. I'll take that first question on childcare myself. The Minister who is responsible for childcare and I have had a number of conversations. Providing childcare across the whole of Wales is a clear priority of this Government. That means, of course, that we have to train more practitioners in that sector to respond to the demand and the growth that we want to generate across Wales. The reason why we want to support childcare, of course, is that it will release parents—mothers particularly, but parents more generally—to return to the workplace or to undertake training courses. So, there is an economic value to that. We know that we need to significantly develop the childcare workforce that we currently have. That will be fed into this audit, and it will certainly come out as a priority, I would have thought, and something that the Government can then respond to in relation to investment.

Construction—we've already touched on that—again, it's an area where we see that there is a shortage. Perhaps we also have to consider how difficult it is for small companies at the moment. Given the cost-of-living crisis, the cost of materials going up, the costs of maintaining businesses in terms of energy costs and national insurance and so on and so forth, it is a very difficult climate for those companies to stretch their budgets to support apprenticeships. But one of the things that we are discussing at the moment—and it's a conversation that I had yesterday with the Minister for innovation—is in relation to developing a plan where we can, perhaps, provide incentives to these small businesses to take on apprentices. So, yes, that's it. I think I've covered the question.

Thank you. Lynne.

I'm not sure if this is the right point for it or not, really, but I wanted to ask about targeted work experience. I'm a big fan of the programme. I think it's got a really important role to play in preventing young people being NEET, some of our most vulnerable young people. I have had some concerns, and I'm glad it sits with education now rather than under the economy. I was concerned about the reach of it and whether all the young people who could benefit from it are getting access to it. So, I wondered if there was any update on the coverage of the programme and if there are any plans to look at extending it.

I'll bring officials in specifically on that programme, but, as a point of principle, you're absolutely right—and I think I mentioned this earlier on—that work experience provides a softer approach to getting the vulnerable young people that we have into employment and into a world where discipline is important, where looking after themselves and each other is important, and the softer support through education and the development of self-esteem and self-confidence as well. All of that counts. So, I would want to see us absolutely continuing with that programme. I don't know whether Ruth wants to add anything specifically on that.

Five hundred placements will be delivered during this academic year, as you know, through Llandrillo and Cardiff and Vale, and there's been a successful ALN pilot where special schools have been engaged in terms of ensuring that those learners have access to tailored work experience as well. As you know, this is not just about giving young people a few days in the workplace. It's that real taste of what the world of work looks like and some of the barriers that they may be facing. Obviously, as part of the work of Careers Wales and as part of the budget setting, we'll be looking to make sure this is part of our NEET prevention as well.

Diolch. Lynne, any further questions on skills?

No, I've got another question on something else.

Okay, I'll come back to you, then. I think Lis—.

Did you want to come in on skills? No. Happy. Okay, Lynne.

I probably should have asked this in the HE section, but I was worried about the time. I just wanted to ask about performing arts students. As you're aware, a lot of the courses aren't designated, they're a lot more expensive, but these are activities that are particularly appealing to some of our most deprived communities. There was an interim solution in place to cater for these young people, and I wondered what the plans were, going forward, to make sure that young people can do those courses.

I've had numerous letters from Members on the performing arts side of things in particular. What we've decided to do is to extend that interim period to allow the young people to go on those courses. Obviously, we'll have to take a longer term view, because we have to ensure that those courses that are not designated at the moment are quality assured and that they are regulated courses as well. But in order to avoid any disappointments, we have extended that provision for another year.

Okay, thank you.

That's right, we've done that. As you're aware, it was about a number of institutions that were not going through the designation processes. We've done a lot of work to get at those providers to get them on our system, because basically they need to be on our system in order to be able to attract student finance in order for those students then to be able to take up places. That's what's at the heart of it. We've done a lot of work. There was an information notice issued, I think this week, setting out where we are and explaining all of that. We're working really closely with ColegauCymru as well to make sure that their young people are aware of the sorts of courses that will give them the maximum funding, because some of this means that you've got two types of funding for students—one at the higher level, one at the lower level—so they're aware of all of that. And then, from next year onwards, from 2027-28, we will align more closely with what is happening in England, and it'll probably be easier to understand for prospective students. So, quite a lot of progress there.

Members, we have a few minutes remaining. Are there any questions on any other topics? It's just a few minutes. Lis.

I just want to emphasise the importance of adult community learning. As you know, it is part of what we do in relation to the preventative agenda and so on. It is so very important. Those opportunities can transform lives. Many of us were at an awards ceremony the other evening, seeing the kind of work that is being done. I am gravely concerned about how much funding has been cut over the years in that area. What is the position at the moment?

As someone who comes from an adult education background, I understand completely what the value of this is and how transformational education for adults can be, not just in terms of opening the door to new opportunities, but it also improves someone's self-esteem, someone's self-confidence. Like anyone else who has been involved in the adult education sector, I know people who have turned their lives around because they were given that one opportunity to access adult education.

I was at that Inspire! night, and it was an inspiring night where we saw people who had come on a long and difficult journey to achieve great things. When we think about what could have happened to some of those individuals had they not had that opportunity that fell to them, it's terrifying. So, I entirely agree that there's a role that's very obvious for adult education, and this is something that's very close to my heart.

I think perhaps it's worth mentioning that—. Lynne, I think you mentioned earlier in the meeting that there was a risk, perhaps, in order to ensure that there is investment in some areas, that there may be cuts to adult education, and that's a cause of concern for me too, and is something that we just mentioned in passing as a committee, because so many of us did attend those awards last week, and we were inspired, as were you, Deputy Minister. Okay—. Oh, Sam. Yes, carry on.

[Inaudible.] And I still remember the speech well, Deputy Minister, from those awards, so da iawn.

Thank you.

We've mentioned a few issues here, obviously, around NEETs, throughout these two hours we've had together, and then the role of apprenticeships and skills. It strikes me we don't often talk much about employability as an issue, so you may have the qualifications, but then the employability skills are required. I'm just wondering from a Welsh Government perspective if you're clear where that responsibility sits, whether it's from the economy side, those employability skills, or does that sit in your brief. And for those 16 to 24-year-olds who get mentioned often as NEETs, how much of the issue we're seeing for that increase in NEETs is not necessarily skills or qualification, but it's an employability issue, and those specific skills required to fill the application form in, sit in an interview, turn up on time to work, those sort of things. Any thoughts?

Well, that's a really interesting question because it's a live discussion between me and the Minister for enterprise, because when you look at the acronym 'NEET', it's 'not in employment, education or training'. So, the education and training part of that sits with me and the employment part sits with my colleague Adam Price. So, we've had a discussion yesterday, which is the start of the process of understanding who takes the lead, who is responsible, and how we can work together, because this needs to work cross-portfolios—not only his portfolio, but, as I mentioned earlier on, it would involve health, social services, housing, transport, and all of the other issues that are barriers to young people becoming or being at risk of becoming NEET. So, it's a good question, and it's a live discussion.

Can I build on that slightly? I appreciate your response, Deputy Minister. Do you have a feel, or do your officials have a feel, as to how much of those in that NEET category—that it may be an employability thing rather than a skills thing? I'm wondering in terms of investment, because there is a heavy investment, and rightfully so, for those apprentices or those getting those qualifications, but it's an opportunity perhaps to, from a financial perspective, actually, get more bang for your buck, as it were, if it's investment in employability rather than in other areas. Is there a feel for that, as to where the weighting sits in terms of the reason for people being in a NEET situation being more of an employability skills issue or more of a qualifications thing? If you don't have the answer, I—.

What we are looking forward to is the Alan Milburn report, which is coming out, I think—. Is it next month?

I think so, yes.

So, that will provide that granular detail across the UK of where that balance is in terms of what we need to do to support those NEET young people, whether it is employability skills, whether it is to do with mental health, whether it is to do with disability access and all of those issues. That will become clearer once Milburn publishes that report, and I'm looking forward to reading and digesting that, because there will be a lot of learning for us in that report.

And, obviously, Medr, Welsh Government, will look at analysing how that translates into the Welsh context—whether it's different or the same. But it is something that we will be looking forward to responding to. And actually, on that point, I think we've got a meeting for me and the Minister for enterprise with Sir Alan Milburn; I think it's in a couple of weeks' time. So, I would want to take that opportunity to probe him further about exactly the point, Sam, you raised.

I think it's worth saying that, as officials, we're looking at the evidence across the different departments on what's feeding into this. But it's the full range at the moment—it's skills, employability, mental health, well-being; all of it seems to be playing a part.

And awareness of what Careers Wales's role is in making choices early on for young people.

I think this report is going to be such a milestone in terms of our understanding of the NEETs agenda. It will beg questions anew for us as a Government as to our approach and the best way of supporting these young people and whether the programmes we currently have are fit for purpose. There will be all kinds of difficult questions that will come from this report.

Thank you very much, Deputy Minister. Unfortunately, we still have several questions remaining from some Members, but our time has run out. We've had a very useful discussion and session. I'd like to thank you very much, and also Ruth and Claire. We have said that we would like to follow up with you on two specific items, which I've noted. One is Seren, in terms of the dates, more on the remit, greater detail too, and also, specifically, whether Oxbridge will be a part of the panel of consultees on that. We'd also like further information about the mental health programme in higher education; I believe that that was also something that we wanted to follow up. Was there anything else, Members, that you thought we needed to follow up with the Deputy Minister specifically? We do have a discussion also as part of the later part of the meeting; we can discuss if there are any other topics. But just so you can expect to see those in due course from us to you. Thank you very much.

Thank you for the welcome and the questions.