Plenary

First of all, may I welcome the question? I'd like to pay tribute to the Member for her long understanding of this problem and her commitment to the subject. It's a very important question, so I'm pleased to be able to address it.

The Welsh Government has, as you know, promoted wider corporate parenting through the voluntary corporate parenting charter, with over 70 organisations signed up. This is being strengthened through statutory guidance in a revised code of practice. While statutory duties primarily apply to local authorities, legislative options continue to be kept under review.

The Government sought consent for a range of provisions in the Children’s Wellbeing and Schools Bill, but not corporate parenting. The irony is this: Westminster placed those duties on the non-devolved bodies in Wales—police, youth justice—so a Welsh care leaver is already protected there, but it is our own devolved bodies, our health boards, that we've left on a charter they sign only if they choose to. No-one doubts Wales's right to do things their own way, but doing it our own way can't mean doing it less. So, I'm asking for his advice, I'm not asking him to defend the Government, only a point of constitutional fact: was there anything in law stopping this Senedd protecting our own bodies as Westminster protected theirs, or was it simply a choice to leave Welsh children less protected by their own Government than by Westminster?

As the Member knows, Welsh Ministers do not possess direct powers under the Children's Wellbeing and Schools Act 2026 in order to extend corporate parenting responsibilities to a wider range of public bodies. Whilst in Wales we do not have in place those corporate parenting duties, the previous Government undertook two public consultations—one closed in October 2025 and one in April 2026—and this was on the guidance for local authorities.

This Government will deliver strengthened guidance through a dedicated chapter on corporate parenting within part 6 of the code of practice for looked-after and accommodated children under the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014. This chapter will set out local authorities' duties in their role as corporate parents and also support a strengthened strategic and partnership approach to corporate parenting. The intention is to lay a revised code of practice later this year.

I'll just make the point as well that many organisations and individuals have signed up to the voluntary charter. Despite not mandating the charter through legislation, in Wales, 70 organisations have signed up to the charter, including all local authorities and all local health boards. We therefore work together with our corporate parenting partners and will continue to review the requirement to mandate through legislation. However, as our figures on signing up demonstrate, we have not needed to do this.

What legal advice has the Counsel General provided the Welsh Government regarding how the corporate parenting framework under the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 compares, in legal effect and enforceability, with the strengthened statutory duties now in force in England?

Okay, that's fine. You speak of the voluntary charter, and that's all very well and good. But I just find it incredibly sad, as a care-experienced young person myself, that the rights in England for a care-experienced young person to bring these authorities to account are so much weaker in Wales. I just find it absolutely astounding. I respect your intervention here, and I respect what you're saying, but I am simply asking for those bodies beyond local authorities—. The only thing binding them is a charter if they choose to sign it. This is a simple legal fact, true anywhere. A voluntary charter creates little enforceable duty. Will the Counsel General confirm that, as the law stands, a care leaver in Wales has less enforceable rights against those devolved bodies than if a care leaver was living in England?

As I mentioned earlier on, the Welsh approach is different from England's, and is rooted in our existing legislative framework, which places clear duties on local authorities, alongside wider partnership responsibilities across public services. As I mentioned, over 70 organisations have already signed up. These organisations signed up in order to observe the charter, in order to adhere to the charter, and in order to, as best they can, perform the duties placed upon them. It is not always the case that you need to mandate via legislation to get people to do things properly. As I said earlier to the Member, the corporate parenting charter does promote corporate parenting widely, and also facilitates discussions on what organisations can deliver. Any organisation from the public and third sector can sign up and become a corporate parent, and embrace and embed the principles in their organisation. I repeat what I said earlier on: the question of legislation remains under consideration when we see how the charter works in reality. Currently, it is working well. Currently, it is popular, it's being signed up to and it's being adhered to. We will see what the future holds.

I want to thank the Member for raising this issue, because I know it's not only an issue close to her heart, but it's an important issue for so many care-experienced young people in Wales. I wanted to use this opportunity to raise a specific concern I have regarding the status of adopted young people. Those that are in care or have been in care have their experience recognised and, therefore, are entitled to some level of support. However, this is not the same for people who have been adopted, and they then lose their status as care experienced. Despite this, adoption is still a different form of care. I've heard first-hand from James Evans, a young man in Cardiff who was adopted and now advocates for the rights of adopted young people, how his experiences were too often forgotten and his unique trauma was not addressed. Like James, many adopted people feel left behind without adequate support and a lack of recognition for what they've gone through. Could I ask the Counsel General what legal advice they have provided the Welsh Government on the legal status of adopted people?

I thank the Member for that question. In fact, my area of expertise was family and child law, so I'm acutely aware of what she says, and she's accurate and correct. However, what I would suggest to her is that she might care to send a note, and I will ensure that my Cabinet colleague with the responsibility for that portfolio deals with the issues that she's very properly raised.

It is important that the Sewel convention is given a binding legal basis in order to strengthen the devolution settlement, as was recommended by the recent independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales. The Sewel convention is not an optional favour to devolved Governments. Adherence to it is fundamental always to the operation of the devolution settlement.

Thank you very much for that response and welcome to your role.

Counsel General, the Sewel convention states that Westminster will not normally legislate on devolved matters without consent. The difficulty lies in those words—'not normally'. Because the Supreme Court has confirmed that Sewel is a political convention, not a legally binding rule, it has been overridden repeatedly since the EU referendum, including 11 occasions where Westminster legislated without consent, and five further cases where the UK and Welsh Governments disagreed over whether consent was required.

In its current form, Sewel allows Westminster to disregard the democratic mandate of this Senedd. How therefore will the Welsh Government take forward the recommendation of the Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales that the UK Government should legislate to require devolved consent for any change to devolved powers, subject only to agreed exceptions such as international obligations, defence or national security? Diolch.

The Member is absolutely right that experience in recent years has shown that the convention is in need of reform—and I would add 'adherence' as well. Since 2020, an entirely unacceptable number of Bills in devolved areas have been passed without Senedd consent, in breach of the convention. We will engage the UK Government on its manifesto commitment to develop a memorandum of understanding to strengthen the Sewel convention, with an aim, ultimately, to place it on a binding statutory footing. For the healthy operation of the Sewel convention, it is essential that the UK Government commits to early and meaningful engagement on UK Bills where the legislative consent memorandum process is likely to be triggered.

The Cabinet Minister for Government Effectiveness and the Constitution raised this important matter only last week at a meeting in Belfast of the Interministerial Standing Committee, which was attended by the Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister—as was, presumably—the Deputy First Minister of Scotland, and the First Minister and deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland. There was considerable discussion and understanding about this particular issue. So, the expected engagement with the UK Government is imminent. In particular, if it has to be a memorandum of understanding, we will move forward to ensure that that is stronger and that it contains cast-iron commitments around engagement, transparency, procedural changes and timeliness, to make the legislative consent process more effective. Ultimately, statutory underpinning is the way forward, as the Member rightly says.

For the convention to be put on the statute books, you need consent from the Westminster Government as well. What advice would the Counsel General give to the Welsh Government if the Westminster Government decides it is not in favour of turning the convention into statutory legislation?

We shall have to wait and see. We will have to discuss, on a co-operative and sensible basis, with our colleagues in Westminster. That is what we will do. That is what the First Minister has indicated he will be doing. We will cross that bridge when we come to it. But clearly, as I've just mentioned, it is a concern, not simply for this Government, but for our colleagues in Scotland, and the Executive of Northern Ireland as well. That must surely be a rather strong message for our colleagues to be considering in Westminster. It's early days yet, but if and when action is to be taken, decisions will be taken in due course.

Counsel General, may I welcome you to your post? You've had a long and distinguished career, and I say sincerely that this Government is fortunate to be able to call upon your continued service. In your political life, you have been clear in the past about the change you want to see for Wales. But, as Counsel General, you now stand in a new place. Your duty is not to party line, or to political ends, but to law and public interest. As shadow counsel general, my task is to test the law that this Government brings forward. I hope our dealings can be serious, fair, and based on law, as opposed to party point-scoring. With that in mind, Counsel General, will you assure this Senedd that, where the law and political ambition point in opposite directions, it is the law that will guide your advice to Ministers, and will you say 'no' to them?

My role is to advise Government on legal matters, end of—precisely the point. I know that he also is a lawyer. I know that he is pretty good at drafting questions; I've had experience of it just now. I would suggest to him, and in the spirit of co-operation, if he wishes to meet up with me at any stage to discuss his shadow brief, my door is open and I'd be very pleased to see him at any time. But I'm not going to be drawn into any political, oblique legal matters at this stage—very good try, but I'm not going there.

Okay, I'll stick to the law here now. Counsel General, people in Wales should expect major changes to the law to be made in this Chamber in the open and after proper scrutiny. But Henry VIII powers allow Ministers to change Acts later through regulations, as you well know. This may be convenient for Government, but it can weaken scrutiny by the Senedd. So, would you give a clear assurance that, where Welsh Bills contain such powers, you will insist that they are limited, justified and subject to the strongest possible scrutiny?

Well, this is what the Senedd is here to do—to scrutinise the work of Government and to ensure that we all get the best we can for Wales. That is the first thing that drives us, the only thing that drives us. As regards Henry VIII powers, they have seemed to be working down the road in London. I'm sure that our Welsh Ministers could discharge that function equally well. It's something that this Government feels strongly about—that they should have the power to do it as and when necessary, but I'm not saying on a wholesale basis; nobody would say that, because that would surely undermine the whole point of our Senedd here. But there are times—times of urgency, or whatever it might be, where there are some rather simple matters to be dealt with, and others that call for ministerial movement fairly quickly—where I would suggest that the Henry VIII powers will be a useful adjunct to the powers of Welsh Ministers. That is something that this Government will be pursuing in due course.

Thank you, Counsel General. You've had an interest in justice and the future of Wales for a long time, and I do respect that. However, I remain concerned about your party's constitutional direction. Changes to the law, the courts or the powers of this place must be judged by plain tests: what issues will they address, what will they cost, who will be in charge, and have the people of Wales clearly supported them? So, will you accept that any major change must be clear, costed and put to the people in a way they can understand? And given Plaid Cymru's stated aim of independence, can you ensure the Senedd that you will not support change by legal or political stealth, but will be fully open with the Welsh people in the transparent way they're entitled to expect?

I am here to advise Government, without fear or favour. That is what I shall do. I shall do my best to give them the best possible legal advice, and it's for others to decide on future policy, on the constitution and everything else.

Diolch, Lywydd. What analysis has the Counsel General made of the standard of court buildings in Wales? I have been told that a number of the court buildings in Wales are in a very poor state of repair. Has the Counsel General discussed the state of the court buildings in Wales with Lady Carr, the head of the judiciary of England and Wales? Has the Counsel General discussed the state of the court buildings in Wales with the Lord Chancellor? And will the Counsel General report to the Senedd proposals to improve the fabric of court buildings in Wales?

I thank the Member for those questions. I can speak frankly about the condition of court buildings in Wales: by and large, they're absolutely appalling, and something is to be done and should be done. As he appreciates, it is a reserved matter, since the Lord Chancellor sends the odd pound or two to repair a leaky roof every now and then. The state of the court buildings is appalling. What I can say to him is that, shortly, I shall be meeting Lady Chief Justice Carr, and I will certainly be covering this subject as one of the main topics that we will be discussing.

Thank you for that response. Lady Carr is well aware of the problems; she reported that to a Senedd committee in the last Senedd.

My next question is: a lot can be achieved without legislation, including what happened with comprehensive education, but some things need legislation. Areas that need legislation include statutory bodies. Support staff are very important to the running of a school. Schools could not run effectively without them. I've seen it first-hand as a school governor—a membership that I'm declaring for the record. Will the Counsel General and Plaid Cymru support my colleague Lynne Neagle's Member's legislative proposal to create in law a school support staff negotiating body?

Well, this clearly is outside my remit, but I'm not going to just bat it away. I see that the Llywydd is having a laugh there. It's like the old days in Westminster.

No, the point he makes is a valid one and what I shall do, even if the Cabinet Minister responsible for the portfolio isn't aware of his question, she will be made aware of the question, and undoubtedly she will address it for him.

Diolch, Lywydd. Can I welcome you, Counsel General, to your new role and say how fondly I remember the times we worked together for the improvement of care for veterans in Wales during your tenure as a Member of Parliament? And I hope that we can have an equally constructive relationship here in the Senedd and in this Chamber.

Just last week, Counsel General, the UK Government's grooming gangs inquiry identified the first locations that it now intends to undertake some investigations and work in. Unfortunately, not one of those locations was here in Wales, and that's very, very disappointing because we know from previous inquiries that have taken place, most notably the independent inquiry into child sexual abuse, which was led by Professor Jay, that there was grooming gang activity in the Swansea area. We know that there's a live case ongoing about grooming gang activity in Rhyl at the moment, which, obviously, I wouldn't expect you to comment on, but we also know from the testimony of victims of grooming gangs and sexual trafficking that that has taken place in other parts of rural Wales as well. Can I ask you, Counsel General, what discussions you have had with those responsible for the inquiry about the engagement of Wales in its important work to make sure that no stone is left unturned in identifying the scale of these problems in Wales and the action that can be taken to prevent it happening in the future?

Well, I thank him for his good wishes, and I do remember working quite co-operatively with him in those days. We've both grown a bit old and finicky and nasty, perhaps, in that time, and I include myself in that. [Laughter.] But the point he makes is a valid one. I shall not mention at all the Rhyl matter because that's before Caernarfon Crown Court as we speak. But the point he makes is a valid one, and I believe that the way forward for me to answer this question properly is to say that I will engage with my colleague who has responsibility for negotiations with the bodies that decide where inquiries take place and that those matters can be properly and deeply investigated, and an answer forthcoming before long.

I'm very pleased and heartened to hear your response there. It is important, of course, for the victims of these grooming gangs that we get answers and that we are able to hold those people to account who have failed them. Not least of those victims, of course, is Emily Vaughn, who has spoken powerfully about her awful experiences having been raped hundreds of times by individuals involved in these gangs and having been trafficked from one place to another, and from Wales into other parts of the United Kingdom, in order to suffer that abuse that she experienced.

Now, of course, we understand from the work that's already taken place that some of the people who were supposed to be protecting vulnerable young girls mainly, but sometimes boys too, that some of the reason that those individuals were able to get away with those crimes for such a long time was snobbery because these people sometimes, the victims, came from poor backgrounds and were written off as being troublesome individuals. Some of it was cowardice, not being prepared to call out activity in certain ethnic groups for fear of being accused of racism. And unfortunately, as a result, many of those individuals felt abandoned. Can I ask you, Counsel General, will you also, in addition to reaching out and working with colleagues across the rest of the United Kingdom, reach out to some of the victims of these gangs here in Wales, have conversations with them about the way that they want the Welsh Government to influence this inquiry? And should you feel that the UK inquiry is not going to get to the bottom of the problems that those individuals want to be dealt with, will you give independent advice to the Government and won't fall shy of calling for a Wales-wide inquiry into those areas for which the Welsh Government is responsible, should that be necessary?

Well, the whole Chamber has heard what he said, and the whole Chamber is disgusted and concerned about what's happening to these young people—there's no question about that. But my remit does not extend to what he asks me to do. However, he's been heard loud and clear, and I hope that this could be the beginning of a conversation with colleagues who are able to take it further. The matter that he raises is important, but I can tell him this: if I were ever asked to give any legal advice in connection with this, then it would be without fear or favour, always.

I do not have a direct role in the monitoring or supervision of Welsh public bodies. However, I can institute legal proceedings relating to matters where any functions of the Welsh Ministers are exercisable and where such action is appropriate for the promotion or protection of the public interest.

Thank you, Counsel General. I accept that Wales has an extensive framework of accountability in place: the courts, the Public Services Ombudsman for Wales, the Auditor General for Wales and the Information Commissioner. Each has an important role to play, but the rule of law begins with Government itself. Through my own scrutiny work and freedom of information requests, I have seen how questions can arise over transparency, governance and compliance with legal duties. In one internal review into a series of my environmental information requests related to Community Energy Wales, the Welsh Government accepts that it has grouped five separate requests together, failed to explain the basis for doing so in its original response and apologised for that oversight. That raises a much broader constitutional question. As the Welsh Government's law officer, what assurance can you give this Senedd that Ministers, Government departments and publicly funded bodies comply with their legal duties from the outset, rather than leaving citizens to fight through complaints, internal reviews and appeals to secure the outcome the law already requires?

Well, as I've said, I do have powers to undertake prosecutions in certain circumstances. But, as Counsel General, I also have a role in ensuring that decisions made by Welsh Ministers are lawful and that they exercise their functions appropriately and that they also comply with international obligations. In addition, I also seek to improve the accessibility of Welsh law, which also assists citizens and Welsh public bodies to ensure compliance with legal rules and responsibilities. Under section 67 of the Government of Wales Act 2006, I do have power to initiate, institute, defend or appear in legal proceedings where I consider it appropriate for the promotion or protection of the public interest. The power in section 67 applies to legal proceedings relating to matters where a function of Welsh Ministers, the First Minister or the Counsel General is exercisable. But, at the end of the day, Welsh public bodies are responsible for ensuring compliance against their own legal responsibilities, and my role does not impinge on that particular matter.

I've had numerous discussions already with y Prif Gwnsler Deddfwriaethol, the First Legislative Counsel, who heads that office, both about the work of the office, its capacity and legislation generally.

Following the historic May 2026 election, this Chamber has grown from 60 to 96 Members. The structural expansion fundamentally alters the legislative dynamic of our Parliament. With more Members taking their seats, we will inevitably see a sharp rise in committee inquiries, a higher volume of amendments and a greater appetite for Member-proposed backbench Bills. With the movement in the Chamber sometimes slow and often delayed until the autumn, a larger Parliament can only pass high-quality bilingual laws if the infrastructure behind it is prepared. Could the Counsel General outline what steps he is taking to ensure that the office of the counsel is adequately resourced, staffed and prepared to handle the increased drafting pressure without causing delays to the Government's own agenda?

Just to state the obvious, the new Government is very conscious that promoting legislation is one of its most important functions, and the Office of the Legislative Counsel has a vital role, both in drafting and, more generally, helping shape the Government's legislative programme. It also leads the process of helping me develop a programme of activities to make Welsh law more accessible, essentially, to develop an easier to understand bilingual statute book for Wales.

The office, like most other legislative drafting offices, is relatively small. However, it will shortly be recruiting to expand the office to 20 legislative counsel from the present number of 17. I will, however, be monitoring the office's capacity in the coming months and will be considering how efficiently the civil service as a whole is able to develop legislative proposals.

I would finally add that the Government's focus is on outcomes, and this applies to the approach it will take to legislating as much as to developing policy and making financial commitments. The fact that there is a larger membership of the Senedd to scrutinise necessarily will not in any way hamper the work of legislative counsel, and, especially, since they will be going up considerably—well, from 17 to 20, it's a considerable upgrading in terms of numbers.

I live in Meirionnydd, which borders on where he lives, and so I am aware of problems that sometimes occur cross-border. Cross-border healthcare arrangements are a routine and essential part of NHS delivery for communities across the Wales-England border. They are underpinned by statutory duties on NHS bodies to secure services for their populations, supported, as I've said, by statutory powers to commission care across the border and by operational agreements, ensuring patients receive timely and seamless treatment.

Counsel General, I'm not overly clear from your response where the legal certainty lies, so can you clarify whether you are satisfied that current cross-border healthcare arrangements would withstand a change in legislative competence without requiring renegotiation and, if not, what is the legal risk to patients in the interim?

There is legislation in Wales and also in England that expressly allows services to be provided and also commissioned across territorial boundaries. NHS bodies also have powers and duties to co-operate and work jointly, supporting integrated cross-border provision, and, in practice, these statutory foundations are complemented by structured commissioning and service agreements between organisations. There's also a shared statement of values and principles reinforcing a consistent patient-centred approach and avoids delays or gaps in care, and the overall framework ensures patients' experience is seamless, safe and timely to access.

And I just make this point that cross-border healthcare operates within frameworks established by the National Health Service (Wales) Act 2006 and the National Health Act 2006, and these Acts impose duties on Welsh Ministers, the Secretary of State and NHS bodies in both England and Wales to promote and secure comprehensive health services for their populations. With respect, I would have said that the statutory underpinning is there. It just had to be made to work slightly more effectively at times.

Welcome to the Counsel General to his new role here today. I'll ask this question in English, to the great surprise of many.

We hear a great deal about the cross-border health issue in Powys, however, what we don't hear much about is the fact that, last year, NHS England did a revaluation of emergency care costs, leading to increased fees over and above the normal inflationary costs et cetera, which are underwritten by the Government. This led to an additional cost of £3.8 million last year, and it's likely to be an extra £4 million in 2026-27. On top of that, Wye Valley NHS Trust is classified by NHS England as a rural area, and gets a premium. However, they then automatically expect Powys to also pay them a premium, which results, to date, to a £13 million bill.

These are the issues creating huge pressures on Powys health board. What legal advice can the Counsel General provide the Welsh Government to help address these cross-border issues? Diolch yn fawr.

Again, I'm grateful for that question, as I was for the previous question. I'll just repeat shortly that the commissioning of NHS services, including cross-border, is a matter for local health boards, who act within the statutory framework established by legislation, to which I referred. Welsh Ministers are aware of the financial pressure facing health boards, including those arising from periodical changes to the NHS England pricing system, which is the agreed tariff for cross-border service provision.

Decisions taken to recognise specific pressures outside the agreed cross-border mechanisms are not enforceable across borders, and are matters for Wales and England respectively, separately. But we continue to engage with NHS organisations and health boards on those pressures, but individual commissioning decisions between NHS bodies are matters for the organisations concerned.

Welcome to your new position, Counsel General.

Thank you very much for raising this issue. I just want to refer back to an issue that I raised on this concern with the First Minister, where he acknowledged the unfairness in the waiting system facing Powys patients, and that he recognised it as a matter of equity. He said:

'we will have the interests of the people of Powys at heart.'

That actually sits quite uneasily with the Powys patients, because that is not what is happening. We hear that the buck is being passed, and I'll be absolutely honest and respectful to you, but we're hearing that from you as well. You're talking about frameworks, you're talking about seamless services. These words mean nothing to Powys patients who are waiting to have their operations, which will relieve them of pain.

You mentioned that there is a statutory framework in place in order to look at the services, so my challenge to you in your role is: will you change and challenge those statutory frameworks in order to allow Powys patients who live on the border access to English hospitals in the same waiting time that English patients have? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Well, again, I thank the Member for that question. I do not have a role in this, in terms of saying that I will be changing anything. I will be giving legal advice when called upon to do so. But the problem raised by all three Members is a live one. I do know that, because I live over the border in Merionethshire. I'm aware of it. I've got friends over the border in Montgomeryshire who are suffering because of it.

Now, what needs to be done, in my submission, is there has to be some form of discussion and/or an official inquiry into the whole issue to see what can be done, because I am aware that it is a serious issue, and I'm aware it needs addressing. So, I hear what the lady says—what the Member says—and I'm sure that my colleague, who has a responsibility for this, will have heard that as well. And I'm not batting this question away. It's an important one. All three are. Something needs to be done. But it's not for me, as Counsel General, to say what should be done. Plans could come on my desk and I'd be asked whether the legality is okay or whatever—yes, fine, but there has to be some kind of a discussion leading to a new policy framework, maybe on both sides of the border.

[Inaudible.]—Llywydd. I'm so sorry, I'm sure you didn't mean to say this, but you referred to me as 'a lady', and I really don't find that acceptable.

I do apologise if that's offensive. Sorry.

Thank you, Llywydd. And congratulations, Counsel General, on your new role.

The Welsh Ministers have powers to revoke, to modify or discontinue planning permission granted by local planning authorities, and these are set out in the Town and Country Planning Act 1990. These powers will only be used where the original decision is seen as so grossly wrong that damage could be done to the wider public interest.

The reason I specifically mention this is that, since I've entered this Chamber—well, not physically today, but over the past six weeks—I've had more e-mails about the Kilvey Hill issue in Swansea than perhaps any other issue. Swansea, I would say, though I am biased, of course, is one of the most strangely unique and uniquely strange cities in the world, and Kilvey Hill is the most strangely beautiful place, perhaps, in the whole of Swansea, which is saying a lot, is what I say. There are multiple campaigns that oppose the development on the hill because of the natural flora and fauna of the hill as well, and also the fact that Swansea used to produce 90 per cent of the copper in the British Empire. The soil of the hill became so uniquely poisoned that the plants that currently grow there are pretty much unique to that hill. And also my own son, before he went to the Royal Artillery, used to train on that hill as part of the military preparation college. So, although I gather that this is possibly the most high-powered legal advice the local campaigns can ever ask, what advice would you give, perhaps, to the Save Kilvey Hill campaign in your role as Counsel General?

Whatever advice I would give them would get me the sack. [Laughter.] But I will say this to him: decisions must and should be made in accordance with the policies set out in the relevant adopted development plan, unless material planning considerations indicate otherwise. But I have to say this as well: public opposition is not in itself a material planning consideration. It is for a member of the public to set out planning reasons for why they think development should not be approved, and it's open to anyone to challenge the handling of a planning application via judicial review if they consider it was legally flawed, but it's not possible to challenge the reasoning for the decision. Revocation powers are very rarely used, as I've explained, and I regret that I'm unable to comment on the planning merits of an individual case, because it may come before Welsh Ministers at a later date, and I would not want to prejudice any formal role that I may then have.

Diolch, Lywydd. Counsel General, good afternoon, and I hope my question will not get you the sack.

I thank the Member for that. I was going to say, 'my friend', but I'm not supposed to say that anymore. [Laughter.] That's another Westminsterism that should go.

The Welsh Government is actively seeking to secure devolution of the Crown Estate to Wales. Welsh people should benefit from the nation's incredible natural wealth. Decisions about Welsh land, the Welsh sea bed and coastal assets should be made in Wales and reflect Welsh priorities and conditions.

Thank you, Counsel General, for your answer. And I know that we on these benches, and maybe others too, share this Government's frustration that Wales remains at a disadvantage compared to Scotland, which has of course enjoyed the benefits of its Crown Estate revenues since 2017. Devolution of the Crown Estate could mean millions of pounds in profits that we can invest directly back into Welsh coastal communities, supporting pressures on our local government, and support jobs and manufacturing in our green energy sector. What more could you ask? What steps, then, can the Welsh Government take to pursue further the devolution of this vital asset legally?

Well, clearly, what the Welsh Government can do is to enter into meaningful negotiations with Westminster, because Westminster holds the key to any further devolution. But I understand and I hear what he says about the potential value of the Crown Estate to the Welsh Exchequer. The figures that I have are that, between 2024 and 2026, Welsh waters generated around £700 million in option fees for offshore wind, and Wales is not receiving anything like a fair share of that. So, we need to be looking further at this. It's a policy area. It's not my policy, but it's a policy area, and I do know that this Government is making this policy area a priority.

Thank you, Counsel General. Thank you.

Well, I thank the Member for raising that issue. Clearly, you were here when the Minister made the priorities statement and so on. There are going to be other opportunities to ask her questions and to start scrutinising through the committees as well. This is an issue that we all have an interest in, I'm sure, because housing is an issue that we will all be receiving in casework. And in terms of vacant homes, we need to address that issue and, certainly, there are plans under way. So, there will be an opportunity to scrutinise and to question the Minister, that is certain, and that will happen through the committees and directly through questions to her.

Trefnydd, will you make some time for a statement from the relevant Minister updating the Senedd on the Welsh Government's new industrial strategy and, of course, the associated skills strategy that really should run alongside it, including some detail on when that will be published, and, crucially, what are we going to be expecting in terms of delivery of real, good-quality, fair work jobs?

May I thank the Member for that question? Clearly, you will have heard the relevant Minister making a priorities statement very recently—that was given by Adam Price as Minister for Enterprise, Connectivity and Energy. There are commitments in our 100-day plan too, and we will update the Senedd as that work proceeds.

Trefnydd, I'd like to request a statement from the Welsh Government on epilepsy services across Wales. Now, last year, Epilepsy Action Wales's 'Seizing Change' report found that every single health board in Wales was failing to meet waiting time guidelines for treatment after a seizure. That report highlighted that patients in the Hywel Dda University Health Board area were waiting up to 36 weeks to be seen, the longest waiting time on record, where National Institute for Health and Care Excellence guidelines actually say the follow-up appointment should be within two weeks of someone having their first seizure.

Now, Trefnydd, I've received representations from constituents who tell me that epilepsy services in my health board area are still under dire pressure and failing to meet patients' needs in a timely manner. The Welsh Government must improve access to timely care and invest in the epilepsy workforce, and so I'd be grateful if we could have a statement from the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care, so that we can understand exactly what the Welsh Government is doing to improve epilepsy services across Wales.

May I thank the Member for raising that issue? Clearly, a number of us will have received correspondence from the public on that issue. Could I ask, since you have specific people in your constituency who've got in touch with you, would you be willing to share that and those lived experiences with the Cabinet Minister, so that he can look further into that, please?

Could I please request a statement from the relevant Minister with regards to the childcare programme and the timetable on this? I was pleased to hear the Deputy First Minister make a specific and clear commitment that initial costings and phasing details would be brought to the Senedd before the summer recess, and that's really encouraging news. And we also have the expert steering group having been set up, and I understand they've met for the first time, but we have 210,000 families across Wales who are living in poverty and really would benefit from that free childcare. So, whilst the announcement and the statement will be with us by the end of this Senedd term, could you give us an update, please, on the delivery of free childcare and how that will be rolled out, particularly within the challenges of local authorities? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I thank the Member for raising that issue. You will know that Plaid Cymru shares your ambition in terms of ensuring that every family has access to affordable, high-quality childcare, because this unlocks opportunity. This is something that's at the heart of our plan within Government. You will also be aware that Plaid Cymru's amendment in the recent debate here, which committed to providing greater detail within the 100 days, had passed very recently. That commitment has not changed.

I hope the fact that we have published £55 million in our supplementary budget in order to start that expansion work demonstrates to the Member that we are serious in terms of progressing this work, and the fact that the Cabinet Minister has committed to providing regular updates also, hopefully, provides that reassurance that the Member seeks. I would hope, therefore, that the Member would be content to support our supplementary budget when we get to that point, because, clearly, that £55 million is an important first step in order to take that ambition forward.

Trefnydd, I would like to request a statement from the Deputy Minister for Transport on local bus provision in the Ogmore Valley, particularly the restoration of services to the Caedu and Stormy Lane areas, as well as proposals to extend evening runs. Since the reorganisation of the network in 2019, residents have been left without a regular bus service, impacting many older residents, disabled people and families with young children. There's also a strong case for extending the current evening timetable. The last departure from Bridgend to Nantymoel is currently around 8.30 in the evening, limiting access to evening employment, leisure and onward rail connections.

As the Welsh Government develops proposals for improved north-south coach services and progresses bus franchising, these improvements must be matched by stronger local feeder bus services. A statement outlining how the Welsh Government will work with local authorities to restore those local routes and feeder services would be greatly welcomed. Diolch.

I thank the Member for raising that issue. Clearly, the Deputy Minister is in the Chamber and heard that, or otherwise I would ask you to write to him. Clearly, after passing as a Senedd during the sixth Senedd all of those reforms in terms of bus services, Plaid Cymru's commitment is unambiguous in terms of the need to improve connections. There is an announcement coming later this afternoon, but that's not the end of the journey in terms of where we want to see this going. Buses are incredibly important. We have seen a lot of concentration on trains in the past, but buses are very important for the reasons that the Member has noted. So, I hope that you're pleased that the Deputy Minister heard that in particular.

The UK Government closed the listed places of worship scheme on 31 March. A £92 million replacement fund was found, but exclusively for England. This means that churches and chapels across Wales faced a 20 per cent VAT increase overnight on every single repair. Now, I know there are National Lottery and Cadw applications that can be applied for, but they require professional help, and that's very hard for small, volunteer-run community groups. This is not just about the buildings. We know our churches and chapels are where we sing our hymns, where we preserve our language, and they forge our national identity. So please can I request a statement from the Minister for culture on this very urgent issue? Diolch.

Thank you very much for raising that issue. This is a very relevant issue within my portfolio at the moment. Clearly, you have referred to the funding that has been available through Cadw in order to invest in these buildings, because, even when they stop being places of worship, they are an important community asset. We have seen that happen across Wales when they are repurposed and reimagined. Certainly, I will commit to write to the Member with an update in terms of the work that we're doing. This has had an impact, this change at the UK level, but there are things that we have been doing through Cadw to assess the implications of that and what we can do to support here in Wales.

Trefnydd, the comments made by the Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning in this Chamber two weeks ago created a lot of confusion within local government, when the Minister asserted that regionalism had happened gradually, through the back door. Now, I wouldn't describe the Local Government and Elections (Wales) Act 2021 as a back door.

Trefnydd, corporate joint committees have been established by law. They're not perfect, but they're an important vehicle to ensure that regional collaboration can work on a democratic basis, which contrasts sharply with Plaid Cymru's proposal to outsource regional economic development to unelected quangos. There's a striking example in south Wales that shows how a Welsh Development Agency-style body may not be the best means of delivering economic growth: the LG factory in Newport failing in the early 2000s. Compare that with the recent development of the world-class semiconductor cluster on the same site, something that would not have happened without the support of the south-east Wales CJC. So, Trefnydd, can the Minister make a statement on CJCs and how democratic accountability will be retained in regional economic development?

Well, what you're asking for sounds like a perfect question to ask of the Minister when we do have ministerial question sessions. It's very specific, and I would suggest that you table that question and place it into the ballot. And of course, there are always opportunities to question and scrutinise Ministers on these issues.

Trefnydd, can I call for a statement on NHS dentistry in Wales from the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care? As the Trefnydd will know, there are hundreds of thousands of individuals in Wales that are not currently registered with an NHS dentist, and many people are having to take matters into their own hands with pliers, or travelling outside of Wales for their treatment, sometimes even overseas. We've got thousands of people in my own constituency of Clwyd who have lost access to NHS dentistry in recent years, including the patients of two local clinics just in the Abergele area alone over the past 12 weeks.

Now, we know that part of the problem is the NHS dental contract, which was foisted on the dentists of Wales by the previous Welsh Labour Government. That clearly needs looking at again in order to make it more attractive for people to join NHS dentistry and to keep their NHS contracts going. We need to know what action the Welsh Government is going to take to address this rising tide and exodus, and I'd be grateful to know what action is going to be taken, and if a statement could come forward.

Thank you very much for that question. I know that Jane Dodds asked me two weeks ago as well, and I would note the points I made at that point in terms of the importance of dentistry, and that we recognise the real challenges that are there. The Cabinet Minister for Health and Care is ensuring that there is a review being done of the new contract in the autumn, and the dental access portal helps people to find a dentist as well. I do recognise that there are challenges here, and we are committed to addressing them.

Trefnydd, I would like to request a statement from the Cabinet Minister for Enterprise, Connectivity and Energy on the future of independent high-street businesses in Wales, please. Across Wales, independent businesses are being squeezed from every direction. Rising costs, higher taxes, increased regulation, soaring energy bills, unfair business rates compared to England, and declining footfall are all making it harder than ever to survive. Every week, we see more shops closing their doors, leaving empty premises on our high streets and taking jobs, investment and community spirit with them. Independent businesses are not just important to our economy, they are the lifeblood to our towns and our communities too. Once they are gone, they are incredibly difficult to replace. So, will the Cabinet Minister provide a statement setting out what urgent action the Welsh Government is going to take to stop the decline of our high streets and ensure that independent Welsh businesses have a future? Diolch.

May I thank the Member for raising that issue? Clearly, the future of our town centres and regenerating town centres is extremely important. It's important to Plaid Cymru. There were a number of commitments in our manifesto in relation to that. It has also been mentioned by the Cabinet Minister for effectiveness—no, that's the wrong one, sorry. It was mentioned by Adam Price as Cabinet Minister for Enterprise, Connectivity and Energy, when he set out his priorities. Certainly, that work will proceed. There are a number of steps that we will take. There is no single solution. There are many challenges facing our high streets—looking at challenges in terms of flooding in some areas, but also the other challenges the Member set out too. So, I can give you a reassurance that that work is proceeding. A town centre taskforce will be established as part of our 100-day plan. This will look at options for reformed business rates that support high-street regeneration better.

Could I support Jane Dodds's calls for more detailed information on your implementation of your childcare offer? I tabled a written question asking for the membership of the childcare steering group, and the reply came back saying that the Deputy First Minister would have to write to me about that. I think it is essential that there is transparency on such a major commitment that is going to cost so much money.

Can I also ask for a statement on the Government's response to the call for evidence on the future of tertiary education? The Government is meant to be committed to a connected approach across the post-16 sector, however, all we've heard about so far is the university sector. However, most of our young people, our most vulnerable young people, are in the further education sector, particularly those who are most at risk of becoming not in education, employment or training. There was a comprehensive call for evidence, and I think it is important that the Senedd has the opportunity to scrutinise those responses.

Thank you. If I may note, in terms of the first point, the amendment that the Government tabled was passed on that commitment in terms of additional information within the first 100 days. I hope that the fact that there is £55 million in the supplementary budget, as I mentioned to Jane Dodds, provides that assurance that Members are seeking that the work is in train. The first meeting of the expert steering group on expanding childcare took place on 25 June. That was chaired by the Deputy First Minister. I will ask in terms of ensuring that you do receive that response regarding the membership.

Regarding the second point, we will be looking to bring forward an update to the Senedd on the work and the commitments that we had in our manifesto very soon.

Leader of the house, could we have a statement from the Government Minister responsible for Government delivery and the constitution? In his statement last week, he referred constantly to the COVID review rather than the COVID inquiry that the Government promised when they were in opposition. It was quite clear that, when you were in opposition, you were voting for an inquiry. I appreciate that you, your good self, on a tv programme, did refer to it as being more of a review, and the health Secretary in opposition said, 'No, it's an inquiry.' Can we have clarity, please, via a statement, to understand the Government preparations in putting this together and that it will be an inquiry under the Inquiries Act 2005?

Well, thank you. I will refer the Member to the Plaid Cymru manifesto, where it was clear—and the commitment that was made in working with COVID bereaved families—in terms of what we would commit to. So, certainly there will be an update when that work does progress. But the Member will know clearly that we have stood on our manifesto, that there has been collaboration with the families affected. He will also know that we stood shoulder-to-shoulder and have been calling for lessons to be learned. And that's what needs to happen here: lessons should be learned, so that preparations are better for the future when—when—something similar happens in future, because the likelihood of that is high, and certainly we are committed to learning those lessons.

Trefnydd, all Labour MPs, including my own Monmouthshire MP, Catherine Fookes, and Torfaen's Nick Simpson—Thomas-Symonds, sorry—voted in Westminster recently to support a trial pushing—offering, sorry—puberty blockers, life-altering drugs to children. It's abhorrent. And yet, they've also backed banning social media for under-16s, because children are supposedly not mature enough to use it responsibly. So, they are saying on the one hand that children are too immature to scroll on their phones, but mature enough to consent to irreversible life-altering decisions about their bodies and fertility. I hope that, Trefnydd, you will agree with me that this trial is nothing short of state-sponsored child abuse. So, may I request a statement from the Welsh Government stating its commitment to safeguarding Welsh children from such drugs in this UK Government-led trial, as I believe it's in the Welsh Government's power to take Welsh children out of the sickening experiment on vulnerable children? Diolch.

Well, it's not my place to respond to what Members of Parliament of a different party have said in a different chamber to this, in the first instance. And I would refer the Member to the comments made by the First Minister earlier today, and also note in terms of the author of the Cass review and their views on this matter.

Trefnydd, can I ask for a statement from the Minister for enterprise on the ongoing situation at Kepak in Merthyr Tydfil? Kepak is Wales's largest meat processing plant and they began a consultation that could see the loss of up to 85 jobs. For years, the farming industry and the wider rural industry have warned Governments what would happen if their pleas for increased production were ignored and not made a priority. Now, herd numbers are falling, confidence is collapsing and Welsh workers are paying the price. It's absolutely vital the Welsh Government does all it can to save these jobs in Merthyr. Every one of these jobs supports families, the wider community and local businesses in our constituency. Losing them will be a blow not just to Merthyr, but to Wales's entire food production sector. Diolch.

Well, I thank the Member for raising that issue. I should declare that this is within the constituency I represent too. It's the second time that the Member's raised this issue during business statements. I don't know if the Member has written to the Cabinet Minister for Enterprise, Connectivity and Energy and asked for a meeting. Because of the nature of this, that would, I think, be the most beneficial thing, because things are moving very quickly too.

This is a serious intervention, reflecting the persistent and unresolved concerns. Previous arrangements have relied on the health board identifying and delivering its own recovery, with support alongside it. That approach has not delivered the scale or pace of change required. This intervention moves beyond that model to one where action is more directly led.

We are not simply asking the organisation to improve; we are directing them on how that improvement happens. That means setting clear expectations, providing targeted expertise, and maintaining close and continuous oversight of delivery. It also means there are no second chances for those in positions of responsibility and authority. The era of plans for improvements being allowed to drift, of problems being allowed to fester, undermining the interests of patients and staff, ends now. It is also a clear statement of my commitment to supporting improvement and ensuring people in the north of Wales receive the safe, high-quality and timely care that they deserve.

Since I was appointed as Cabinet Minister last month, I have been working closely with my officials to put measures in place to ensure the health board delivers immediate improvements. Members will be aware that this Government’s 100-day plan committed to commissioning a joint review with Audit Wales and Healthcare Inspectorate Wales of the effectiveness of the current escalation and intervention framework, which have clearly shown to be wanting by the chronic issues at Betsi. My officials are working at pace to put together options on advancing this review, and I will be making a statement in due course. But tackling the issues at Betsi cannot wait. That is why work has already been taken forward with NHS Wales Performance and Improvement to strengthen accountability and intervention arrangements.

As part of a new approach to intervention to organisations in higher levels of escalation, an intensive support, recovery and turnaround team has been established in NHS Wales Performance and Improvement. The intervention will take a five-phase approach to mobilise, assess, plan, support and transition. The intensive support, recovery and turnaround team will focus on the most pressing risk areas currently affecting the organisation, bringing together operational and clinical experts to drive urgent improvement. Their work will prioritise reducing long waits for cancer treatment, tackling ambulance handover delays, and ensuring that no-one waits more than two years for planned care.

This targeted approach is designed to stabilise services quickly, while addressing long-standing performance challenges that have impacted patient outcomes. By combining practical delivery expertise with clinical leadership, the ISRT team will support the health board to take decisive action, improve patient flow, and restore timely access to care.

As part of the level 5 intervention at Betsi Cadwaladr health board, I have also commissioned a full stock-take of the health board’s current position, covering operational challenges, quality of care and strategic direction, to determine the most appropriate next steps to see improvements delivered for the people of north Wales. Immediate actions will include a formal well-led review of the organisation, covering leadership, governance, and organisational culture; quality, safety and patient experience; board and executive capacity and capability; and the review will also consider any areas of good practice to enable future improvement and delivery plans.

There will be stronger independent challenge than seen previously. A nationally appointed expert panel will undertake a full assessment of leadership, governance and performance. It will provide clear, evidence-based recommendations and ensure transparency about the changes required. A reference group will also be established to ensure local context for the review and to provide guidance.

Importantly, this intervention is designed not only to address immediate performance pressures, but to tackle the underlying causes of repeated failure. It will examine whether the organisation has the leadership capacity, capability and culture needed to sustain improvement over the longer term. This represents a clear shift towards more direct support and accountability, with a strong emphasis on measurable outcomes and sustained improvement for the people of the north of Wales.

Last month, I wrote to the chair of the health board setting out my concerns about the lack of progress. In July, I will chair a meeting with board members and the executive team from the health board to make clear to them my expectation that they must take ownership of the long-standing issues within the health board and make the improvements required for the people they serve.

While this Government is stepping in more directly, this does not remove responsibility from the health board—on the contrary, it strengthens expectations. The board and executive team must take full ownership of the issues they face and work at pace to deliver the changes required, supported but also firmly challenged by this intervention. I expect the final report from the 'well-led' review to be submitted to the Welsh Government by the end of October this year.

I have been clear that there must be an urgent injection of pace for this work, so I expect, therefore, the interim findings to be reported monthly, to inform the ongoing intervention and support. The report and its findings will be used to trigger the further intervention and direction required, and we will work with the health board on the outputs to ensure that appropriate actions are taken. We will continue to work collaboratively with the board to ensure that interventions are effective and lead to long-term improvement in service outcomes.

Dirprwy Lywydd, the trials and tribulations at Betsi Cadwaladr health board didn’t start under our watch, but I am committed to turning the situation around. This is the board’s final chance to demonstrate that they can deliver the consistent high standards of care that people in north Wales deserve. As both the First Minister and I have made abundantly clear, all options will be considered if progress is not at the scale and pace that we expect to see. I will be maintaining close oversight and will keep Members informed of progress. Thank you.

I'd like to thank the Cabinet Minister for his statement. I welcome the fact that the Minister is taking further action on Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board, but the people in north Wales have heard strong words before. They have heard promises of improvement before. They have seen reviews, action plans, escalation frameworks and outside support for years. But after 11 years of escalation and more than three years back in level 5 special measures, we are still talking about serious failures in leadership, governance, performance and patient safety. The key question today is simple: what will be different this time?

The Minister is right to say that front-line staff are not to blame. Doctors, nurses and the wider workforce are doing their best in extremely difficult circumstances. They're being let down by the system, just as patients are being let down by the system. But the figures remain deeply concerning. Only 58.2 per cent of emergency department patients at Betsi were admitted, transferred or discharged within four hours, and 17.1 per cent waited more than 12 hours. On planned care, 18.6 per cent of pathways were waiting more than a year. Diagnostics were also a major problem, with 43 per cent of pathways waiting longer than the eight-week target. Cancer performance stood at 52.5 per cent against the 62-day target, far below the 75 per cent target that the Welsh Government sets itself.

The recent Healthcare Inspectorate Wales decision at Ysbyty Glan Clwyd should also be a serious warning. Its emergency department has yet again been designated as a service requiring significant improvement. HIW raised concerns about leadership, governance and risk management, but we've heard all that before, and I know Members from north Wales have raised it in this Chamber on a number of occasions. The fact that this department has previously been under those arrangements, between 2022 and 2024, shows that, even when progress has been made, it has not been sustained. What is going wrong here?

I want to ask the Minister directly: what powers does he currently have to force the change at Betsi, and which of those powers is he prepared to use? Because the danger is that the Government talk a very good game on intervention—I know, I've heard it for the last five years—while then saying that its powers are limited when it comes to direct influence over delivery. If the Minister believes that the current rules do not give him enough power to intervene directly, then he should change the rules. If the escalation framework is not strong enough, then strengthen it. And if Ministers cannot direct the pace and scale of change needed under level 5 special measures, then bring forward the necessary changes so that the Government can. The people of north Wales cannot be asked to sit through another cycle of review, report, action plan and then the disappointment and poor performance that follows.

The Minister has announced today an intense support, recovery and turnaround team. It just seems like another board to me. I do not oppose bringing in expertise, but the question is how this taskforce will deliver improvements on the ground. Will it have power to direct operational decisions? Will it report directly to the Minister? Will it be able to challenge the board in real time? And who will be personally accountable again if these targets are missed? Will it be the Minister or will it be someone we've never seen before? I also want to ask what additional measures and support are being put in for the specific areas that the Minister identified.

On cancer, will there be extra diagnostic capacity, additional clinics, weekend or evening working, more use of cross-border capacity and a clear recovery plan for the 62-day target? Otherwise, it’s just warm words. On ambulance handovers, what is being done with the Welsh ambulance service, local authorities and social care partners to improve patient flow, speed up discharge and stop ambulances being stuck outside hospitals instead of responding to emergencies? And on two-year waits, will the Minister set out a pathway-by-pathway plan with clear dates, extra theatre capacity, insourcing or outsourcing where needed, and where mutual aid from other parts of the NHS or providers from outside Wales can come in to help? Those are what people need to see with delivery on the ground.

The evidence is already there, the failure is already known. The issue now is not whether another review can describe the problem; the issue is whether the Minister is prepared to use every available lever to fix it. Otherwise, this will be just another board that identifies the failures and delivers nothing.

To finally close, you said that these issues did not start under your watch, but the people of north Wales will be watching to see whether you can turn this around. Because if you can't, Cabinet Secretary, I think you'll be another one on the long list of health Ministers who has failed to turn Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board around. Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer.

Thank you for those questions. I agree with a lot of what has been said, because during the committee debates we've had, we've raised these issues about Betsi Cadwaladr, and clearly there's a cross-party issue here in wanting to resolve this. In fact, I should probably declare an interest. I live in the north, my family are patients under Betsi Cadwaladr. In fact, nearly half of the Cabinet are represented by Betsi Cadwaladr. It's in our interests to see it improve.

You made some very good points around the issues, and you provided the data with urgent and emergency care statistics, the planned care problems, the cancer stats, the diagnostics, HIW at Ysbyty Glan Clwyd. These are all some of the major problems facing the health board, and we expect to see rapid improvement in those. However, the difference here—and you asked what is the difference between what we're proposing and what has been done in the past—is that the previous approach relied on the health board to identify and deliver its own recovery plan, with support placed by the Government alongside it.

That approach hasn't delivered in the past. In this instance, what we're doing is that we are putting the individuals in to help with the support and to direct that support, looking specifically at cancer diagnostics and waiting times, looking specifically at the handover and the ED problems that we've got, and at the two-year waits. They will be dealing directly with those major issues we can identify and making sure that we have rapid improvement in those departments.

You made a good point about whether or not the escalation framework is fit for service and use. We've said it isn't. We're not convinced that it is at the moment. That's why we have started the process of reviewing the framework. We've commissioned that piece of work already, and I will be updating the Senedd on this.

On the final point you raised around the waiting lists, they're clearly unacceptable in the north. That's why we've put forward the £100 million revenue plan for waiting lists. Much of that will clearly be targeted at Betsi Cadwaladr, and we will be using all the tools at our disposal to get those two-year waits down within a matter of months. The First Minister and I have made it clear that the health board is on notice and this is the last chance that they have, so we expect to see rapid improvement over the coming months.

Minister, thank you for your statement. The frustrations that have been expressed in this Chamber I align myself with. The service provided by Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board is insufficient and needs to be improved rapidly.

When I read the statement, Minister, I was reminded in my own mind of that scene in This Is Spinal Tap where they move the guitar dial up to 11 from 10. It feels and sounds like you're frustrated with the escalation framework, because it goes to number 5, and Betsi have been at that point for many years now, but we're not seeing the improvements and the speed of improvements that should be expected at that point on the escalation scale. So, I understand and appreciate why you are taking these measures, but what I'm concerned about is that the measures have been deployed in the past, albeit in different forms. Largely, intervention has been seen in the past to little or no avail, or at least to no sustained benefit for the long term.

There are some really important points, though, that come from your statement. First of all,

'no second chances for those in positions of responsibility and authority.'

That sounds to me like it's a formal final warning to the board. Is it also a final warning to executives? Significantly as well, with the measures that you're announcing today, essentially, NHS Wales will be intervening more directly and intensively. NHS Wales are directly accountable to you. You've issued a final warning. Surely that also applies to NHS Wales, in which case, you are putting yourself in the firing line directly if we do not see, as you put it, immediate improvements.

I'd just welcome an outline of how much responsibility you are willing to take for the situation at Betsi Cadwaladr, and, with regard to those immediate improvements, what they are and by when will we see immediate improvement. Is 'immediate' days, weeks, is it months? I take it that those areas of improvement relate to reducing long waiting lists for cancer treatment, tackling handover delays and ensuring that no-one waits for more than two years for planned care, but just clarity on that would be very helpful.

You also state that this intervention represents a clear shift towards more direct support and accountability with a strong emphasis on measurable outcomes. Measurable outcomes are great, but it's even more important to state what your targets for those measurable outcomes are. So, just clarity on what those targets might be would be very helpful for the Chamber, I believe.

You closed your statement with the line

'This is the board's final chance'.

As I asked just before, is this the executives' final chance too? I know that in previous Senedd terms, Members have argued that the board members, who have suffered in the past from being dismissed, have sometimes covered for, if you like, or taken the bullets for the executives. Is it the executive team's final warning today?

And then finally—and it refers to what's been asked by James Evans—the ultimate sanction, which would be reorganisation. On what grounds would you commence reorganisation of Betsi Cadwaladr UHB? I think it's really important to be clear and transparent, because if you can't provide detail of the basis upon which you would reorganise the health board, then I'm afraid that we will just get drift, insecurity and instability within the health board. In the past, you've said that all options are on the table. Can you just be clear with us today on the circumstances that would lead you to commence reorganisation of the health board? Diolch.

Once again, the Member makes some really important points. I understand also that, as a Member for the north of Wales, he also has an interest in making sure that this works. And he was absolutely right when he started his contribution saying, 'I am frustrated at the framework and the fact that it hasn't shown to be working.' That's why we have commissioned a review of the framework. And as I said, I will be bringing a report back to the Senedd with progress on that review.

The Member did mention, along the same lines as James mentioned earlier, that measures had been deployed previously, but there's a distinct difference here where measures deployed previously allowed the health board to lead its own recovery and identify its own problems. In this instance, we're saying, 'No, we know what the problems are. You're not going to lead that recovery yourself. We are telling you that you will have to improve on cancer diagnostics and cancer treatment. You're going to have to improve on ambulance handover and ED performance.' So, that's where the targets are coming in. We know, at the moment, with cancer, for instance, that they haven't reached the target for cancer—they've been on 52.5 per cent. We need them to be at 55 per cent for four months continuously in order for them to be de-escalated in that measure. So, we need to see a four-month sustainable improvement so that they can de-escalate down to level 4. So, those are the targets that have been set and we are saying that we need to see urgent delivery. And I expect to see delivery as soon as September and then a four-month consistent delivery after that.

Finally, the important question and probably the most important one that you raised was around reorganisation and at what point do we make any decisions on that. That's why I've announced today that we've got that well-led team put in place, which will be made up of an expert panel of people who have run organisations, managed such organisations, and with a clinical input to understand what the problem is—what's gone wrong in the past, why didn't your Government's intervention succeed, what's gone so wrong that we haven't seen the improvements required and what are the problems with the governance at the health board and the culture? And the Health Inspectorate Wales report specifically spoke about culture in Ysbyty Glan Clwyd—that's across the health board as well, the cultural problem. They will look at all of these things and then bring recommendations forward to me. And then, based on that and a piece of work I've commissioned to look at all options for Betsi, we will make a decision based on the evidence given in front of us. Thank you.

Thank you, Cabinet Minister, for bringing forward the statement today. I support your passion to turn things around at the board, and I agree that time is of the essence when it comes to Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board, given that it's been in special measures for 11 years. I also agree that the board's issues are complex and varied. I wonder, though, Cabinet Minister, how your approach will, indeed, help to find a better outcome. It feels like reviews on issues that have already been reviewed are undergoing regular reviews, which seems like kicking the can down the road for me. I know we've talked about timelines; you just answered the question, briefly, to Ken Skates. You mentioned September, but I'd like to know what happens after September.

The answers as to how we solve Betsi's problems also don't lie in more money for the health board. We saw the previous Welsh Government sprinkle tens of millions of pounds on the health board in the name of improvement, but without any return. In fact, the board was projected to still be £17 million in deficit at the end of March, and now we see that you'll also be providing £100 million to improve waiting times, so how much of that is actually going on Betsi Cadwaladr? As we've seen in the latest statistical release this month, the board makes up a third of patients waiting over a year for treatment, and two thirds of patients waiting more than two years. That's 33,000 patients waiting over a year in Betsi alone. They shouldn't be waiting this long, Cabinet Minister, so do you have time frames in mind for urgent improvement by your announced intensive support, recovery and turnaround team?

Last week, you also spoke about surgical hubs, but in light of our debate on preventing hospital downgrades and closures, you were remarkably coy about how your Government would step up for local services. So, I'd be grateful if you could confirm whether these surgical hubs are a temporary or permanent measure going forward.

The answer also doesn't lie in a new chief executive. In 11 years, it's been a revolving door at the top, and staff need reassurance that their leadership is going to be stable and secure from now on. I know that Carol Shillabeer has been in charge for about three years now, but even then, we've seen nearly 89,000 patients treated in hospital corridors, and as we heard last week, staff battling outdated and crumbling infrastructure to treat as many patients as they can. And this is reflected in the A&E waiting times for the board itself.

You've mentioned Ysbyty Glan Clwyd, and we can see the problems it faces. It sits at the bottom of the NHS table, with fewer than a third of patients being seen within four hours. Wrexham Maelor isn't much better, with fewer than 40 per cent of patients being seen within the target time, and over 1,800 patients waited longer than 12 hours in both hospitals. The Royal College of Emergency Medicine estimated that, last year, nearly 1,000 patients died waiting for emergency treatment across Wales. So, what will the turnaround team be doing now to improve patient flow out of hospitals in north Wales?

Cabinet Minister, I noted that you outlined £20 million in a capital package for improving waiting lists, yet we see £1 billion of high and significant maintenance issues in the NHS estate. However, it doesn't escape my notice that you sought to evade these points last week, and that you don't mention them in any of your statement here today. Therefore, what urgent measures are you taking to ensure that urgent improvement works are made to hospitals like Wrexham Maelor?

Cabinet Minister, you've said on many occasions that your focus will be on primary care, but no mention has been made of how this will be turned around in this statement. I do agree that we need more care closer to home, however, in the case of Betsi Cadwaladr, we know that, historically, there's been a widespread shortage of GPs in the area itself. We see regular situations where patients can't even register with a GP in north Wales. This, ultimately, has direct impacts on A&E departments, as there is simply nowhere else for them to go. So, while extra funding for primary care is your clear goal, Cabinet Minister, how will this help the residents of north Wales and what measures are you taking to increase the number of GPs across the board's area?

Finally, Cabinet Minister, I see last week that you said Betsi Cadwaladr will be, and I quote,

'on watch...over the next two years'

and hinted at a possible reorganisation if it did not indeed improve its performance. Let me just say this clearly today, Minister: your Government will also be on watch, not just in this Chamber by us, but by the residents of north Wales too. Thank you.

Deputy Llywydd, the Member is right in her critique of the situation where we've got problems in primary care—we'll start there—when it comes to GPs, and that feeds into the problem that we have at, for instance, Ysbyty Glan Clwyd, but in fact in Wrexham Maelor and Ysbyty Gwynedd as well. Those problems with ambulance transfers into the hospital, those problems with ED, start at that primary care, so that assessment is absolutely right. That's why we've said that we will be recruiting an extra 100 GPs across Wales, and they will clearly help in the north of Wales, in those areas that—[Interruption.] The Member is asking how many—all the decisions that we're making are clinically led, so they will be helping out in the areas where the urgent need is required.

The Member asked about better outcomes and whether or not this was kicking the can down the road. Well, I would push back on that and say 'no', because we are putting this support of the recovery and turnaround team in immediately, and they will help with those issues that I mentioned, with cancer diagnostic and cancer treatment, with handover of the ambulances and with the two-year waits. So, they will be helping immediately to identify what needs to be done and direct the work in order to get those resolved. I've given already the timescale that we're working to.

One of the questions that the Member raised was around the capital spend and whether or not we would be dealing with the backlog. I think I've mentioned numerous times, Dirprwy Lywydd, in this Chamber, that the urgent issues around the backlog are a priority of ours. The backlog in the NHS stands at £1.5 billion, so we know that certain urgent works need to be done, and it is a priority. We will be going through those pieces of work with pace over the coming year and a few months, in fact, as we put that £20 million we've committed into improving theatre spaces and diagnostic equipment as well. So, I think that answers most of—

The estate.

The estate, yes, which is what I've just responded to there. In the question on the estate, you asked about whether or not the hubs that we're putting in are going to be permanent. Again, to repeat what I've said previously, we will be clinically led. Some of them will be permanent, some of them will be utilising underutilised spaces within the NHS estate currently. So, it'll be a mix and match depending on the clinical advice that we're receiving.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. May I begin by declaring an interest? My wife works as a nurse at Betsi Cadwaladr.

The situation at Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board is a clear reflection of the systemic weaknesses that have accumulated over a long period of time under the previous Government. There's been failure for over a decade to ensure that care is delivered in the right place, particularly in community settings, which has led to significant pressures on hospitals and, unfortunately, to worse outcomes for patients. As a result, we've seen a familiar cycle developing: a lack of capacity in the community, increasing demand on services in general hospitals, and then the need to respond to emergencies rather than prevent them. It is, therefore, no surprise that Betsi Cadwaladr is once again subject to some kind of additional measures, which clearly underlines that the previous approach has not been sufficiently robust or sustainable.

This statement is a clear sign that the current situation demands further challenge, further scrutiny and, above all, further accountability. I'm pleased that this Government is ready to face this reality head-on so soon in its term of office and to look afresh at the current framework in order to strengthen governance and re-establish accountability.

Cabinet Minister, this is nothing new, is it? We know we've been campaigning for a decade and more to improve standards of healthcare in north Wales.

Yes, there is a question on the way.

But may I also say that I demand that you listen to the grass roots; my wife wouldn't forgive me if I didn't say that. Please listen to those working on the ground; they know best how to deal with this. The question, therefore, is: will you explain how exactly this escalation will establish a new culture of robust leadership, transparency and long-term accountability for the benefit of patients across north Wales? Thank you.

Dirprwy Lywydd, the Member started by referring to his wife, who works for the board. May I take a moment to thank her and every nurse and midwife working in very difficult circumstances in north Wales? Their work is recognised and appreciated by this Government.

I share the concerns that the Member raised about Betsi Cadwaladr. He was right in saying that we've been campaigning to improve the quality of health services in north Wales for over a decade. And despite the significant investment made by previous Governments in Betsi Cadwaladr, the board has failed to show the level of progress required.

The support and recovery team that I announced today has never been done in the past. We have never commissioned this kind of body before, particularly when it comes to the work in Betsi Cadwaladr. They will be directed by Government to undertake work in order to look and support primarily, particularly with patient flow, improving ambulance transfer times, as I mentioned, reducing waiting times for treatment and diagnostics, and improving waiting times for cancer diagnosis and treatment. That will be important in order to ensure that we can change the culture, that people at the management level of the board know that they need to act with urgency when the board brings plans forward, and that they are acted upon and implemented, rather than letting them sit on a shelf without actually taking any action. I've asked officials also to develop further actions if the board doesn't reach our expectations.

Cabinet Secretary, thank you for your statement. I want to raise a really serious concern today, and I think it's one that's been actually overlooked in this debate altogether, and I'll discuss that in a moment.

I've been contacted, actually, by a staff member at Wrexham hospital who described what they believe to be a culture of bullying and intimidation within parts of the senior management structure at the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board, and that may be at the heart of some of the issues that are actually ongoing here. They tell me that staff have been driven to sickness, have resigned or have sought transfers elsewhere because they feel unsupported and were still unable to challenge poor behaviour.

As a former NHS employee myself, I worked right across north Wales, including at Wrexham Maelor Hospital. I know that doctors, nurses, healthcare professionals and support staff deserve a workplace where they are respected and valued and able to speak up without fear of repercussions.

Poor leadership doesn't just affect staff morale, it can ultimately affect patient care. And it doesn't sound like strong operational command and supporting staff well-being to me, from what I've read in your statement today. So, will you, Cabinet Secretary, therefore, tell us what assurances you can provide that concerns of bullying and intimidation, which may be at the heart of some of the issues ongoing within the Betsi Cadwaladr health board, are being independently investigated, and what specific actions you will take to ensure that staff who raise concerns are protected and listened to?

And one last question. You actually mentioned today that all options are open. Would you actually consider a takeover by a health board from outside of Wales? Diolch.

Dirprwy Lywydd, if I start with the final point.

If I may start with the final point, no, I will not even countenance the idea of allowing a health board from outside of Wales to take over Betsi Cadwaladr, because they work to different rules and regulations. We've got devolution here. We've got our own pieces of legislation. The health board answers to this Senedd, to you, the people elected by the people of Wales.

The issues that you raised around the bullying and management accusations that you've heard sound, on the face of it, serious, and I would say that we've got strong whistleblowing powers here, and I would suggest that if the Member has got any evidence and can share that evidence, then please do so. Nobody should be penalised. Nobody should lose their job because of their whistleblowing. So, make sure that that information reaches myself, initially—or far better for it to go directly, initially, to the health board so that they can look at at least the accusation initially.

But the broader point the Member raises around the culture and governance is absolutely key to what we're doing. That's why we are setting up the independent well-led expert panel so that we can look at those issues around the culture of the health board, why things haven't succeeded, have they got the required leadership and the required skillset in order to push things forward. So, the broader point you're making around culture and governance is central to what we are issuing today.

Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. Can I also refer to my register of interests? My daughter's employed as an assistant psychologist by the health board. The Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board isn't functioning as it should. It's on life support. Its vital signs aren't good. We know that the performance is nowhere near where it should be, and that's taking its toll on patients and on staff. You've announced today more of the same medicine, effectively, for the patient, with yet more panels, yet more people from the outside giving support for people on the inside. And I have to say I've got a low level of confidence that it's going to deliver the turnaround results that we all want to see.

The intensive support and recovery turnaround team, that's a national team. It's not just focused on Betsi—it's going to be responsible for the whole of Wales. The well-led review, you haven't said who's involved in that or named the individuals who are going to lead it. You've referred to the reference group, which is going to help guide its work. I want to know whether patients and staff are going to be on that reference group.

But can I ask you two very quick questions? First of all, are we going to involve Donna Ockenden in this work? There was a high level of confidence in Donna with the two reviews she's already undertaken in north Wales and, very clearly, she has the expertise, she's used it elsewhere across the UK to help turnaround, and I'd be grateful to know if you're prepared to include her. And secondly, with reference specifically to emergency department performance, Abergele Hospital has some capacity to be used with in-patient beds and could be used as a minor injuries unit. Will you seriously look at that, with your officials and the health board, to determine whether that's a viable solution?

Dirprwy Lywydd, I won't repeat what I've said about the difference between what we're promoting here and what we've seen in the past, which is the first point that the Member raised.

The Member asked about Donna Ockenden. Donna has done a number of tremendous pieces of work here in Wales and really valuable pieces of work in Wales. In Betsi Cadwaladr, she looked at the Tawel Fan issue, and, more recently, we know of the work she's done in Nottingham university, which was published last week. So, absolutely, I value the work that she's done, and I will put her name forward to my officials to consider as part of the expert panel. But I seriously can't promise that she will accept or she's even available, because you'll know that she's extremely busy at the moment.

The Member asked about patient and staff input—which I was remiss not to answer Marc Jones's point also—yes, I think it is important that we hear from the patients and from those on the ground. That's why everything that I've announced since being appointed Cabinet Minister is clinically led, it's led by the evidence. So, I think it is important that we do take on board the lived experience of patients, and the people who work there as well, and I will feed that back as well, so that it is fed into the expert panel.

Abergele Hospital—once again, not to repeat myself too often, but the expert panel that we're putting together for those clinical hubs will be clinically led, the decisions that they're making will be clinically led. But I will put forward Abergele as one of the options that they will consider. Again, I can't promise it'll be there, because who knows what their advice will be, but I'll put it forward as well.

Can I just also—? Again, I was remiss not to thank the Member for the work that he did within the NHS in north Wales previously, and thank your daughter as well for the work that she's doing.

We know that the performance of the NHS across Wales has been under significant pressure for a number of years, particularly under the former Labour Government, with long waiting lists, inconsistencies in standards, and ongoing concerns about leadership and accountability across the system. These challenges have been demonstrated particularly clearly at Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board in my constituency. I would like to emphasise from the outset that this is not a criticism of NHS staff; they work extremely hard under extremely challenging circumstances. Rather, the problem lies in a system that, over a long period, has been overly focused on responding to failure rather than preventing it, accompanied by a lack of clarity in terms of accountability and cohesion in leadership.

I welcome the fact that you, Minister, are trying to set clear expectations and change that systemic culture. And now, it is positive to see concrete steps being taken to strengthen leadership standards and improve performance transparency. Therefore, could you outline specifically what discussions have been had and what actions have been taken to ensure real and sustainable improvement for patients, and what changes will be made to the current framework to ensure clearer accountability and better outcomes? Thank you.

The intention or, indeed, the purpose of these extended measures, Dirprwy Lywydd, is to hold the health board—any health board—to account on the delivery of health services. I have set out my expectations of the health board in north Wales clearly in terms of delivering expected improvements, and I will reinforce this when I chair the next meeting of the escalation board next month. As part of Plaid Cymru's commitment on the 100 days, I have developed options for reviewing that framework already, jointly with Audit Wales and HIW, on the efficiency of the current regime, and I will be deciding on and announcing the best option within the week. That work will include an urgent assessment of the current framework before then announcing a new framework that will ensure efficiency, transparency and proportionality. Central to all of this, we will look at whether the escalation measures do improve outcomes, which is what we all want to see at the end of the day.

Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd, and thank you for extending the time on this.

O me of little faith, Cabinet Minister—we've heard it all before. You may have a different way of going about things, but we desperately need quick action. You know, 50 days in to all these different changes that were going to be coming in, the health board was one of the most key priorities for me. I'd like to thank Nigel for bringing forward those accusations of bullying, and I'd like to meet with you, because I have also received—. Believe it or not, I think there are some concerns that maybe the Cabinet Minister does need somebody like Donna Ockenden to actually come in and look at this board, because it's not necessarily where you think the bullying may be actually taking place. Some senior—very senior—members of this health board have also felt under—. You can't forget that the buck stops with this Welsh Government. You can blame—. As you were, you opened up your statement with quite accusatory comments: 'If they don't do this, if they don't do that.' They need your help and support. They also need the help and support of the director general of the health board.

So, really, what I want to ask you is: in your first 50 days, given the immediate outcomes that are needed—and immediate can't come soon enough—what have you actioned, other than announcing some funding and another review board, to address these failings? And how is the director general a part of the actions needed to support the chief exec, the chairman of the board and their members? This health board needs help. It needs support. It doesn't need that hard hand that you've delivered here today. So, I ask you that question: how are you working with those executives that Ken Skates mentioned, because they have to bear some responsibility also? Diolch.

Dirprwy Lywydd, the Member said that she's heard it all before; I beg to differ, because what we've put forward today is different from previously, as I've explained. So, I won't go into repeating myself, if you can forgive me for that. But the Member did say that after 50 days in and whatever—. Exactly. I've only been a Cabinet Minister for 40-something days, and we are taking now action with pace. We are announcing that we are making sure that we are helping the health board in order to reach their targets. So, the question that you posed about how are we helping the board—it's by what I've announced today.

Regarding the director general, I have meetings with the director general on a nearly daily basis in order to find solutions for this and making sure that we are putting steps in place to bring the health board out of those escalated measures so that we see improved outcomes for the people of north Wales.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. I thank the Cabinet Minister for his statement and for taking robust steps so soon in this parliamentary term to tackle the intensive challenges facing Betsi Cadwaladr. One element of the statement that I welcomed specifically was the commitment to introduce an expert team to provide support in the areas of planned care, cancer and urgent care. It's clear from the correspondence that I've received from constituents that those are all areas that have kept the health board under special measures for such an extended period of time. What specific improvements will the Cabinet Minister hope to see in introducing this expert team, and when does he hope to see these improvements being delivered?

Dirprwy Lywydd, the Member is entirely right in saying that we need to see improvements as a matter of urgency, and I agree and sympathise with what the Member has said. That's why I have listed very clearly our expectations of the board so that they can come out of level 5 intervention and come down to level 4. That includes looking at planned care. We need to see the implementation of the plans that have been created, but haven't yet been implemented. That means that, in implementing them, we will see waiting lists fall by the end of September, and then continue to fall to the end of the year.

That looks at cancer, the statistics that we mentioned earlier, where we are looking at increasing from 52.5 per cent to 55 per cent, and to keep that going for the following four months. And likewise, looking at emergency care, we know that the board has now agreed to invest £3.9 million in order to strengthen the workforce in emergency departments. We will expect to see improvements in delivery in those departments as a matter of urgency.

So, I expect to see improvements by the end of September, and to maintain that for the winter months.

That is why we have taken immediate action, delivering our commitments for the first 100 days, and why I will seek to maintain the pace and ambition of our efforts to transform public transport in Wales. Thank you.

Thank you for your statement—[Interruption.] There we go. How is that? Thank you.

Thank you for your statement, Minister. These improvements to north-south travel are long overdue. Your announcements today are a small but very important step to fixing that, but these 100-day commitments that we've heard so much about are nothing to boast out. For this coach service to be genuinely able to deliver for residents and boost the local economy, it must be operational, it must be frequent and it must be dependable at all times of the day.

Minister, you say you're working on a single platform for booking and planning journeys, but this will not be of any use if coaches, trains and buses only run every two hours or are delayed. So, can you guarantee that a service residents can count on will be put in place, in time, by the end of the year? Can you guarantee that there are back-ups available should mechanical failure happen or any unforeseen instances with the vehicles? And how are timetables being matched with other transport services, such as trains and the wider bus network?

But, of course, reliability of the infrastructure alone isn't enough. Even the best service will fail if people simply can't afford to use it. Plaid likes to pretend that Reform opposes green transport, but the truth is that we simply don't. We support a transport system that is reliable, affordable and works for Welsh people. A north-south service could be a genuine alternative to the car if it's affordable for families, if it's affordable for students, and if it's priced to support jobs, tourism and economic growth across Wales. There's one word missing from your statement, and that word is 'affordability'. You never told us what this service will cost, what Welsh people will need to pay to use it. So, can you tell us what fare levels are being considered for this service, and will you guarantee family tickets and group discounts from day 1, so that this service is full of passengers and not just full of empty promises?

Frankly, today exposes a much bigger problem for Wales. While countries across Europe are investing in modern rail networks that drive growth, connect labour markets and drive investment, Wales is still talking about coaches. In Switzerland, they built the Gotthard base tunnel that connected the north and the south. It cut journey times, it shifted freight onto rail and it turned fragmented regions into single functioning labour markets. Plaid Cymru talks about ambition for Wales, but today's statement tells a very different story. It's a story of a fragmented Wales economy and a celebration of the status quo, which is limited to the equivalent of Dave's Coaches.

Now, Minister, coaches won't transform the economy, infrastructure does. So, Minister, what conversations have you had surrounding major north-south rail infrastructure projects? Is that something that Plaid is completely ruling out? What assessment has been made of the economic impact of this coach service? And why is Plaid's answer to Wales's greatest infrastructure challenges 'more buses'? It certainly won't solve the M4 relief road in the south and it certainly won't solve the economic challenges. The country wants you to build.

Finally, I'd like to link this to our ports. For generations, our ports have been gateways to Welsh trade, Welsh businesses and Welsh jobs. The port of Holyhead alone handles 4.8 million tonnes of freight every year, making it Wales's principal gateway for trade with Ireland. Every lorry, every ferry and every business that relies on that port is a reminder of the economic opportunity that's sitting on our very doorstep, yet your flagship north-south service doesn't even reach it; it stops at Bangor. That tells us everything we need to know about this Government's ambition: big on announcements, big on the press release, very short on delivery.

If you're serious about growing the north Wales economy, supporting businesses and creating jobs, why would you stop miles short of one of Wales's most important economic gateways? Will you commit today to extending this service to Holyhead, and in the south to Fishguard, with a funded timetable for delivery? Or is this another example where a Government talks about connecting Wales while leaving the very places that create jobs and economic growth disconnected? Diolch.

Thank you for your question, Jason. I think what we've talked about there—. There are a lot of things that I would agree with in that statement and I think it's good to see that there's a lot of ambition that you want to see, and this is part of that.

I'll tell you what this starts as being is a pragmatic start to make sure that things work, because we can wait forever for things to change, or we can make a difference quickly. This is about making a difference quickly; it's about making a difference that we know people will want to use. And we know that people will be interested in this. When we went out and consulted about this, 60 per cent of those people who were in that consultation said that they wanted to see this service that we've set out here, so we're confident that this is going to work.

I think your point about it being operationally resilient is really important. And this is something that's at the heart of what we've set out here. This is the reason we've got these two-hour coaches. We want people to trust in them, we want people to believe that these are going to turn up when we say they're going to turn up, which is the reason we've limited the stops. We need to make sure that the coach can get from A to B, from north to south, in a time that's convenient for people and works for people. So, that's really important. It's also why we've already got eight coaches in the yard, ready to go.

You mentioned integration, and I think integration is probably one of the key points of this service. To make it work, it needs to integrate. I referenced ports in my statement, but also integration with different towns that aren't on the direct network. Transport for Wales have been programming this whole system in, so it becomes a whole-system approach. So, it links into smaller conurbations that are on the outside, and they fit in and they can make sure that they're part of this solution too.

Affordability is central to this, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I think that's one of the issues that we'll be talking to at the start. But the guarantee I can give is that this will be an affordable service that will make sense for people's pockets. It will be cheaper than a car, and it'll be the right service that people choose.

I like the fact that you support our rail network. I look forward to talking about rail devolution next week. I hope to get the support from you behind us when we talk about rail devolution to make sure that we can talk with a united voice to UK Ministers when that time comes.

I'll finish by saying the way that this project will be extended will be based on how it gets used. We are confident that we can deliver the service as it is now, but that doesn't mean we don't add stops in the future. That would be something that we'd look at on a demand-led basis. But the demand as it stands at the moment is what we've got here. Diolch.

Thank you, Minister, for your update on bus services, including the express link between Bangor and Carmarthen, which the Welsh Labour Government had already set the wheels in motion for. I think anyone who's had to do that journey via public transport with trains will know that it necessitates a journey into England via Shrewsbury and takes more than six hours currently. Towards the end of the last Senedd, we were carrying out a review of the possibility of introducing more limited-stop coach services linking north, mid and south Wales and west Wales, so I welcome the fact that you're continuing along the previous Welsh Labour Government's road map.

Unlike the Reform benches over there, we recognise the fact, as you stated in your statement, that the estimated price tag for reopening rail links between Bangor and Carmarthen via Pwllheli and Aberystwyth was up to £2 billion. I don't know if Jason O'Connell has got £2 billion in his back pocket, but we on the Labour benches certainly agree that a high-speed bus alternative is eminently sensible, and we welcome your announcement on this. I'm sure the investment we had already put into TrawsCymru services in the region of £7.3 million to provide quality bus services on strategic routes across Wales will have helped enormously.

I have some questions on your announcement here this afternoon. I note that you say that this new express service will be a bookable service. What consideration have you given to those who would find online booking difficult and may be digitally excluded? Thinking about the eight new buses that you've commissioned, will they have capacity to store wheelchairs and bikes, and will they be accessible for passengers with mobility problems?

You will know that Welsh Labour had committed in our Senedd election manifesto to 100 new bus routes across Wales. With that in mind, while this express service is really welcome, would you set out whether there will be other services that offer more stops for shorter journeys serving communities up and down the route as well? What provision have you made for dovetailing with local authority active travel maps and initiatives at stops along the route?

Turning to the £1 bus fare scheme, we obviously need to offer ambitious, innovative and meaningful policies if we want to get more people using public transport and encourage the modal shift that we need to reach net zero. I was proud of my party's delivery of that £1 bus fare scheme for young people during the last Senedd term and our manifesto commitment to make that a permanent scheme, as well as capping fares across the board. These policies are key in improving the affordability of public transport, so I'm a bit disappointed that your statement confirms that the current Welsh Government is only willing to offer a short-term commitment to extend the scheme for young people until the end of 2026-27. So, to conclude, I'd like to ask if you would revisit that decision. If not, how else will you make sure that young people are not only encouraged but can afford to travel on public transport?

Thank you, Vikki, and thank you for the broad support for the statement today. I think that shows that when good ideas come out, there's nothing to stop us working towards them. I think this was something that was originally worked up, as I said in my statement, as part of the co-operation agreement, so it shows that when parties co-operate, we can get things going and we can make progress. I'd like to think that this progress has been pushed forward because we've managed to get money from the budget straight away, so we're launching this. We will be launching this service in the autumn, so people will be able to book it from then. I think this is a good example of things working together.

You mentioned online booking, and I think that's a really good point. I'm going to take that away, if that's okay, just to come back to you with the solutions to it. It's something that TfW already work with. People can book who struggle with using online systems on their own, but on this particular service, I'll come back to you on that one separately.

I think accessibility is really important on travel as well. Just to give you an example of how we've worked on this service to make sure that people who are travelling with wheelchairs or who've got other bigger storage commitments can work with this service, I think you've got a situation where one of the stops was particularly difficult to be able to get a wheelchair on and off it because of the size of the coach, so we've managed to work with another space in the town. This is in Aberaeron, where you can park further up, and wheelchair access on and off can be made accessible. Every single stop here will be available to those people who need further access. We've also made sure that the time per stop allows those people to get on and off instead of it taking time off the whole journey.

I mentioned integration in my answer to Jason. I think integration is key to this and TfW have been working really hard to make sure we integrate services, so whether it's local services, whether it's local authority active travel services, these are all part of the integration piece. What we need to recognise is that this is intended to be a fast journey between north and south, but when people come off, they can feed into the wider network. But we also recognise—and I did reference this—that people will be using it for shorter journeys because it's convenient. This will work if you want to go from Porthmadog to Dolgellau, Carmarthen to Bangor, perhaps. These are things where we recognise that the journey will be used.

In terms of the commitment, the Cabinet Minister for Finance and I spoke about extending the £1 bus fare. Doing it for this year is making sure it's in for this year. Don't take that as an indication that it won't be in for further years; these are conversations that we'll have. This is clearly a service that young people really welcome and enjoy and use. We've got to try and make sure that we get passengers. If we get young people using public transport whilst they're young, we hope they extend that through to their lives more generally as well. Thank you.

I welcome this statement wholeheartedly. Interestingly, when devolution was first on the cards, one of its primary objectives, if devolution came in, was to ensure that we'd have a north-to-south road infrastructure in place that would connect north Wales with the capital city and Government of Wales. But we've been 27 years in the waiting, and that hasn't happened. So, I welcome this as being another way to get people from north to south. When you consider that 71.7 million passenger journeys are undertaken on local bus services each year, and remember that 19 per cent of the population of Wales has no access to a car, this demonstrates the importance of accessible and reliable public transport for many communities.

Published in 2025, Transport for Wales undertook a feasibility study into introducing a TrawsCymru express coach service that would connect north and south Wales via the western corridor. Because for anyone doing this on a weekly basis, let alone if you want to come here more often, it can take four to four and a half hours, and since the 20 mph and the 50 mph on some roads, I find it's more likely to be more than four and a half hours, sometimes five hours, coming down here.

I regularly travel on the direct train service from Holyhead, and that can take around four hours, although I will say last night—and I have raised it with you—I boarded at 15:29, arriving at my flat at 21:30, and I was asking for a bus to be laid on, because there were other Members here who didn't get home until much later than that. That is something that you need to do. It cannot be that you allow the poor performance of TfW and the trains, the lack of information, the miscommunication, which is so bad at the moment.

I believe that quicker public transport journeys are already achievable on parts of the Welsh transport network. I know great work is going on, and I know you'll announce this in the next week or two, as regards the bus franchising. Transport for Wales estimates that the proposed TrawsCymru express service will take around four hours and 45 minutes—can't knock that at all—cutting approximately 90 minutes from some journey times.

We've got to enhance sustainable transport options along Wales’s western corridor, but we must never forget that a lot of people do want the road infrastructure to be easy to use, because there are many people who love having their cars, love driving their cars, and there has to be that choice. We can't push everybody, and I've said it before here—. I'll leave the Lycra out, but we can't push everybody onto cycles, trains and buses. There are people who will want to use their cars. But we've got to reduce the travel times—that's the biggie, really.

Currently, there's low public transport demand along the proposed corridor, and only 4 per cent of visitors to Wales currently travel by bus or coach, so there's work to be done there. If we're serious about improving transport links between north and south Wales, we need to see better continued investment in rail infrastructure, road infrastructure and integrated public transport. Improving one mode of transport in isolation will not be enough. A co-ordinated approach that strengthens bus, rail and road networks will deliver the greatest benefits for passengers, businesses, tourism and communities across Wales.

Will you commit to ensuring, going forward, that all of the transport infrastructure is reviewed alongside the review of the integrated bus network between north and south Wales? Can you be more specific than 'autumn', because autumn, technically, is a three-month season? Can you be more specific as to when you think these buses will start running? Diolch yn fawr iawn, and thank you again for bringing this forward. We need some good news in this Chamber. Diolch.

It's always great when you get Janet really talking through our press release. It works quite well, so I really appreciate that, Janet, and thank you for your support.

There's a wider connecting point about how we make sure our transport systems work together. That's something that I'm taking on board and I hear what you're saying. I think we need to make sure this is a practical, pragmatic solution that is about delivering this quickly. It suits people, people want to see this happen. It looks like there's demand for it. We'll soon see that in terms of it going ahead. We have to make decisions and we have to take things forward. This is doing exactly that. It matched our 100-day commitment, and this will be delivered.

In terms of the 'when', we're working towards that. We're weeks away from announcing the 'when', but we're going through a procurement exercise, so you're just going to have to hold your horses a bit, but not for very long. We're really keen to get this running as soon as we can, I'm really keen to get this running as soon as we can, so people can use it. The booking window will start a few weeks out, so people will be able to plan their journeys a few weeks out from travelling to get on the road and the coaches to make it happen.

You, like everyone else, have talked about integration. I hope I've made it clear that integration is key to making this work. That's integration from different modes. Some of it can be about car—

Will it be tap on, tap off?

It can be tap on, tap off. I've talked about 'one ticket'—this is all part of that same system and part of that vision, which is something we're keen to support so that Transport for Wales can deliver that. You mentioned bus franchising; this links into that quite clearly as we go through. But I do appreciate the support on this. Thank you.

Could I welcome this debate today? For far too long, the link between north and south Wales has been inadequate, to say the least, when compared to cross-border connections. It continues to be an absurd situation whereby travelling within our own nation is often more difficult and less efficient than travelling through England, something that undermines the economic, social and cultural cohesion of Wales. There is real potential here to transform the way people move along the north-south axis in Wales, tying Wales together as one.

I would like to highlight the value of including local community voices in the planning and delivery process. By working closely with local authorities, service users and businesses, the Government could ensure that this service reflects real travel patterns and meets people's day-to-day needs. Furthermore, service frequency is crucial to its success. An express service is a major step forward, but its true value will become when it runs sufficiently often to be a practical daily option.

It would be positive to hear how the Government, in partnership with Transport for Wales, will ensure that this provision will be able to respond and evolve in line with demand, especially in busy periods or during major events. Could I also add that I welcome very much the enthusiasm of my colleague to my left for the need for capital investment in projects in Wales? It is such a shame that we don't have access to European capital funds anymore to realise that.

Thank you for your question, Elwyn.

I appreciate it. I think this—. Again, there's a lot of repetition. I agree with you, this is an opportunity to change the way that we travel. It's a starting point. We're a long way, going back to the point I made when I spoke to Janet, from getting this right, but we're on track—maybe that's the wrong word—we're on track to show that we're making progress.

In terms of passenger numbers and making sure that we link with actual travel patterns, we've spoken to a lot of people, so there's been a lot of research done. Since it came up in the co-operation agreement, there's been a lot of energy and it's been spoken about and worked on with local authorities and others, to make sure this matches the requirements. So, I think we're in a position where we've got a good starting point, hence the stops that have been chosen so far. But this is work in progress. As I said in my answer to Jason earlier as well, this is something we'll review in terms of how you can expand it. But the key to it is about getting the passenger numbers up, and part of that is making sure that people are confident that the service will be there. This is why we've made sure, with the support of the Cabinet Minister for Finance, that the money is there to make sure the service is there and it is regular and it can be relied on. I think, then, there are opportunities for us to extend that service, once we can see that passenger numbers are coming through. I think it's got an opportunity to be a real commercial service over the long term as well, as it gets used. Diolch. Thanks for the question.

Thank you very much for your statement, and it's great to see investment here in our bus services. I played a small role in promoting and ensuring that we secured the £1 bus fare for young people, and I know that, across the Siambr, when we jointly work, actually, we can improve the lives of people here in Wales. So, diolch yn fawr iawn.

You referred to TrawsCymru services, but one of the TrawsCymru services that actually has gone back in time is actually the T4 service, which goes from Newtown to Cardiff—or at least it used to—via Brecon. It now stops at Merthyr, and at Merthyr, you have to get off the bus and wait for another bus, if you're lucky, or a train from Merthyr to Cardiff. Now, whilst you're promoting and investing in a new TrawsCymru service, we've actually got a problem, because many of the residents across mid Wales are suffering straight away because of the T4 services. So, I'd like to ask you: could you please ensure that you look at that service and ensure that we get a through service all the way from Newtown down to Cardiff, which is what we used to have? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Diolch, Jane. This is something that has already crossed my desk, so this isn't news to me at all. But before I get on to that question, I just want to thank you for your support, especially about the £1 bus fares. When I met all the opposition spokespeople, this was the first thing you said when you came into the room, and we couldn't confirm at the time, but we're able to confirm it now, to extend that service. So, thank you for your support on that.

With regard to the T4, I've asked officials already to start working on this alongside Transport for Wales. There are some commercial issues at play here, which is the reason that we're in the position that we are in, but I don't think they're insurmountable, but they may not be immediately resolvable. But it is something that's one of my priority issues to sort out. I recognise if we want this transport system to work in the way that we expect it to, and it seems like there's some consensus around the Siambr for this, then we need to make sure that, where there are breaks, we resolve them as soon as we possibly can. Diolch.

I welcome this statement as an important step forward in the integrated transport network that connects people and opportunities, and supports the economy and making travel easier. But the success of that vision will depend on affordability, as we've heard earlier. This is why it's right to recognise Plaid Cymru's commitment to keeping the bus fare low, including the £1 single journeys and £3 tickets for children and young people. So, can I have further assurance that this new service will also be affordable, especially as rail fares can often be out of the reach of many families and people on low incomes? I'd also like to ask for further detail on how the Government will work with Transport for Wales to create a fully integrated system, including the tap on, tap off ticketing and daily fare caps across bus and rail, so that public transport is simpler, fairer and more accessible? And how will you promote the service so that the public will be aware of it, have confidence in it and, of course, use it?

Diolch, Pred. All of these—. Again, at the risk of repeating myself, it's so important that we get the pricing of this right and that it's accessible for people, and people know that this becomes a much better value option than taking your own car and that it will be a much better value option than taking the train. These are things that we need to be—. And especially for people who want to take families et cetera on this journey too, this is a solution that should solve a lot of people's problems. One of the groups I think who we think will probably use this will be students, for example, as they travel across the country, so this is one of the opportunities that we get for those as well.

Bus franchising gives us the opportunity to make the changes that we need to make, and this is where we need to dig in and do the hard work to make sure that we get the single ticket and that everything becomes so visible for people. Because at the moment, as I said in my statement, it's actually quite difficult for people to cross between website A, website B, website C, and working those things out on a screen can be hugely difficult. We can make that a lot easier. The technology's out there. This isn't rocket science. We need to get into it.

And we just need to get all—. We have multiple operators running our bus network, as you know, and our coach network now, so we've just got to use bus franchising as a way of being able to integrate them, and integration, integration, integration.

Diolch. Can I warmly welcome your statement today on the north-south express coach service providing much faster connections, not only between north Wales and south Wales, but for communities in west Wales. This is a genuinely exciting opportunity to move towards the kind of cohesive and, as you say, fully integrated transport system that Wales needs. Central to that vision is making sure that no community is left behind, and that people across all parts of Wales are able to access and benefit from these improvements. But for this vision to be truly achieved, we also need good and timely links to connect people living in smaller towns and villages into this express route. So, can you, as Deputy Minister, assure us that these connecting services will be developed and co-designed by local voices?

Thank you for the question, Anna. I completely agree with everything that you just said. I think it's really important—again, I'm using that integration word, because this is huge. This is what will make the difference between this service being a success or otherwise—the ability for people who are not on the direct route to be able to access this. So, this is about working on the routes that fit. We know the times broadly that they're going to be dropping in. We believe this could take about an hour—at least an hour—from the journey, if you were to do it, by multiple bus routes at the moment, it would be up to an hour and a half. So, we know the times they're going be arriving close to those other places, and we just need to make sure that those other places are connected in. And officials in TfW are working on that. Now, this is part of the design that's being worked up today. I think there'll be things that we'll review as we start to build on this process, but reviewing it and learning from it is central for this to be a success. Diolch yn fawr.

However, Dirprwy Lywydd, I can assure the Senedd that the hard work to ensure that our communities are safe and healthy through the cold of the forthcoming winter has already begun. The clearest lesson from last winter is that resilience depends on reliable capacity in the right parts of the system at the right time, particularly during December and January. This winter, we are putting new measures in place to strengthen planning, delivery and assurance across the whole system. Earlier this month, we set a clear winter improvement aim: safer, more resilient and more person-centred urgent and emergency care. That means reducing time spent at extreme pressure, tackling corridor care, improving hospital flow and strengthening community support, especially for older people and those living with frailty.

We need robust planning now, so the system is ready for high-volume respiratory demand rather than reacting once pressure is entrenched. We have therefore set five new priority areas for health boards and partners.

First, proactive frailty care in the community. Identifying people at greatest risk earlier, and supporting them sooner, can prevent avoidable deterioration, reduce emergency admissions and protect acute capacity for those who need it most. Vaccination remains one of our strongest defences against winter illness. We will act early, target those most at risk, support high uptake among health and care staff, and protect children and vulnerable groups through a comprehensive roll-out. We have already taken action, with the Deputy Minister for Public and Preventative Health introducing an expansion of the respiratory syncytial virus vaccine to those over 65 who are at clinical risk, and a time-limited meningococcal group B vaccination programme. This MenB vaccination programme will provide additional protection for higher risk young people ahead of the winter MenB peak. We will continue to act on the latest scientific advice and provide clear, trusted public information. We will also appoint a national director for out-of-hospital care. Work is under way with NHS Wales Performance and Improvement to design this role, which will drive system and culture change.

Secondly, we must protect acute hospital capacity. This is essential to patient safety, timely emergency care and preventing pressure escalating across the wider system. We are setting clearer expectations to improve ambulance handover through escalation triggers, real-time oversight and targeted support to the most challenged sites. Health boards must provide sufficient acute bed capacity in line with forecast demand. For the first time, NHS P&I will support scenario planning for influenza, respiratory viruses and infection-related pressures, with stronger action to reduce outbreak-related ward closures.

Thirdly, safe discharge without delay is a core winter priority. When people who no longer need acute care can leave hospital promptly, flow improves, the risks associated with prolonged stays are reduced and beds are available for those in greatest clinical need. Health boards will submit new improvement plans next week, setting out how they will prioritise safe early and weekend discharge, supported by seven-day services and strong partnership with community care. We will also strengthen discharge pathways through a home-first approach, step-down care and community rehabilitation, supported by domiciliary care, reablement, community services and care home capacity.

Fourthly, early readiness and strong operational command are vital. We are moving from reactive escalation to proactive system control, with stronger whole-system grip to anticipate and manage pressure before it affects patient safety. For the first time, we have set an expectation that winter plans must be stress tested in September and ready for full delivery when pressures hit.

Fifth, organisations must support staff well-being and resilience during sustained pressure, including practical arrangements such as transport for essential staff in severe weather.

Health boards and partners must support and sustain their workforce, ensuring that staff are well led, well deployed and properly supported so they can continue to deliver safe and timely care under pressure. Dirprwy Lywydd, none of this can be delivered by one organisation acting alone. Winter resilience depends on the whole health and social care system working together effectively. We have set clear national expectations that health boards and local authorities share regular information on service availability and capacity, supported by stronger joint working through regional partnership boards. Proposals for a new and co-ordinated communications approach are in development, with the aim of giving the public clear advice on how to access care, helping people to get the right support first time and reducing avoidable pressure on front-line services.

Finally, we will maintain a strong focus on delivery and outcomes. Clear expectations are necessary, matched by regular assurance that plans are translating into better outcomes. I have asked for a winter readiness assessment for every region by the early autumn, and that will inform any further action that is needed at a national, regional and local level.

Our ambition is clear: urgent and emergency care that is safer, person-centred and resilient. We will deliver this by reducing escalation, tackling corridor care, improving hospital flow and strengthening community care, particularly for older people and those living with frailty. The integrated community care system will be central to delivering that ambition, supporting more seamless community-based services so that more people can remain at home or return home sooner after an unplanned hospital stay. This will require continued joint working across the NHS in Wales, local government and the voluntary sector, and we will be working closely with partners to ensure that the system is prepared and resilient. I will provide a further update to Members in the autumn.

I'd like to thank the Cabinet Minister for his statement, and I do welcome the fact that preparations for winter have begun early, because if there's one thing we all know, it's that winter pressures cannot be solved in December when the system is already under strain. But there is a concern that I have with this statement, which is that we've heard much of this before. If I closed my eyes and changed the accent a little bit, I think it could have been the previous health Secretary delivering this statement, because we've heard before about the whole system working together, better flows, early discharge, community support, frailty pathways, vaccination, stronger command and control. Those are all sensible aims, but they will only make a difference if they come with the capacity, the workforce, the funding, the accountability and clear delivery targets, because we've said this year after year: if we do not have those things in place, we will see the same problems that we have. And the figures do show that this was why it matters. In May, there were just over 98,000 attendances at emergency departments in Wales, and only 64 per cent of patients were admitted, transferred or discharged within four hours, when the target is 95 per cent. That's well, well below where it needs to be. And 11,000 of those patients waited 12 hours or more, despite the target being that no patient should wait anywhere near that long. These pressures are not confined to the winter; they're already baked in to the system well before winter begins.

Audit Wales have also warned that urgent and emergency care in Wales is under consistent pressure. Between April 2024 and March 2026, only one in five patients arriving at a hospital by ambulance were handed over within 15 minutes, despite the target being 100 per cent. In March 2026, the average ambulance handover wait was one hour and 38 minutes, and you and I both sat through a statement by the previous health Minister saying that no-one would wait in an ambulance. So, we're not hitting that target—nowhere near it. And this is not safe. It's not safe for patients, it's not fair to the ambulance crews who are left caring for patients outside hospitals, instead of responding to the next emergency that they need to get to. So, I'd like to ask the Cabinet Minister: how are you going to improve this before the winter comes? Because we do not want to start at the low baseline of where we are now.

The Minister also talks about reducing corridor care, and I welcome that, but can he set out how will corridor care be actually measured this winter? How many patients were treated in corridors last winter? We don't have the numbers. What is the baseline and what reduction does he expect to see by January? Because, unless we measure it properly, these is a risk that we simply talk about ending corridor care when patients continue to experience it day after day.

The Minister also talks about protecting hospital capacity. Again, I agree with the principle, but I'd like to know what additional beds will be available this winter, where will they be available and whether they'll be properly staffed. A bed without staff is not capacity, and a winter plan without a workforce is not a winter plan at all. You talked about community teams, but they require more nurses, GPs, interacting with social care. We all know that those areas need additional funding to strengthen community teams, but I didn't hear in the statement if any additional funding was coming there to strengthen the workforce.

On discharge, Audit Wales has highlighted the scale of the issue: 1,400 patients were delayed in hospital for more than 48 hours after they were fit to go home. That has cost the NHS around £172 million. And Audit Wales have said that, if we could just reduce delayed discharges by 15 per cent, £26 million of resource could be put back in to the NHS to help us with winter pressures. So, I ask the Minister: what specific action is being taken with local authorities and social care providers now to increase dom care, reablement, step-down care and care home capacity before the winter hits? It's not enough to say 'home first' if the care package is not there; it's not enough to say 'seven-day discharge' if therapy, pharmacy, transport and social care are not available seven days a week, and it's not enough to tell hospitals to improve the flow if the bottlenecks are sitting outside the hospital walls.

I also welcome the focus on vaccination, but, again, I'd like the detail. What are the uptake targets being set for vaccination? How will the health Minister make sure that the uptake among health and care staff is going to be improved, and what action is he going to take and what measures are going to be taken around that?

The Minister also refers to stress testing. I'll check the time, Deputy Presiding Officer. The Minister refers to stress testing the winter plans in September. That is sensible. But when will he publish the outcomes of those assessments by health board area so Members and the public can rightly see which parts of our health service are prepared for winter and which parts are not—and I'll conclude here—because there needs to be proper accountability? If a health board goes into this winter without enough beds, without a safe discharge pathway, without a workforce plan and without a grip on ambulance handovers, what happens? We see bottlenecks in the system and people not getting the care that they need. So, if the Minister could answer my questions on those, I'd be very grateful. Diolch yn fawr.

Dirprwy Lywydd, a number of very pertinent questions there and I'll try my best to go through as many of them as I can in the time I have. And I will be testing your patience, I know, because I have been speaking quite a lot this afternoon. I like the fact that you've welcomed the statement. That's always good to hear. However, once again, I'd push back on what you said about having heard this before, because, clearly, you haven't. We are starting the process earlier. That's not happened previously. We are modelling things like influenza, any influenza outbreak, so that health boards are ready. That's not happened previously. We are planning in advance, not just for this year, but for years in advance. That's not happened. And other parts of the statement are clearly new ways, a new culture that we're introducing in preparing in advance rather than being reactionary.

You're absolutely right that we need to look at corridor care. It is unacceptable. I referenced that in my previous statement and we will be looking at improving data gathering. That's a key part of what we're looking to deliver as a Government, so we do have that baseline and we do identify exactly what we need to do to bring it down. But, as far as corridor care is concerned, we know it's a whole-system approach that we need to introduce earlier in the system, in primary care, and we need to discharge people from hospitals, which brings us to the point that you raised about discharging. That's why we'll be introducing a greater scope of discharging on the weekend so that more people get out of hospitals earlier, because we know that the only reason people should stay in a hospital bed is if they have clinical improvement. If there's no clinical added value to their time in the bed, then we need to get them out of there so that they improve at home.

And when it comes to vaccinations, yes, I am proud of the fact that we will be improving the roll-out. We've already seen that with the Deputy Minister for prevention and primary care ensuring that we've got the funding for menB vaccinations, and we're expanding the RSV roll-out as well. So, that will improve outcomes here in Wales.

Minister, can I thank you for your statement? I commend you for bringing the statement forward so early. I think it would be very helpful if your colleagues, particularly those in delivery portfolios, could do so as well. I think winter resilience and adverse weather planning is something that affects many services, and to hear from your colleagues, I think, would be very helpful indeed.

Of course, planning for the winter months extends beyond your core responsibilities; it is dependent on a number of other Ministers making plans and enhancing provision wherever and whenever necessary. For example, alleviating pressure on secondary care is dependent on making sure that the roads are open and clear during winter months. It's about making sure that local authorities are well equipped to be able to deal with pressures in social care. In terms of education, if staff can't stay and work because their children are off school because of adverse weather, then it affects the provision and capacity of human resource in hospitals. And then, of course, vaccinations in schools will influence the degree of pressure that the NHS is under as well. So, knowing from the education Minister what plans are in place to maximise the uptake of vaccinations in schools would be very helpful. Likewise, third sector support. It's vitally important too that the commercial sector is engaged fully in terms of planning for the winter, and I'm thinking specifically pharmacies across Wales, who do so much for patients and who do so much to alleviate pressure on core NHS services.

Now, it would be helpful, I do believe, to have a cross-Government adverse weather and winter preparedness plan because of the interdependencies across portfolios. I think, also, the role of GPs during winter months cannot be overstated; they become so acutely important in making sure that people who don't need to be admitted to hospitals are able to be treated. So, it would be very helpful to know what discussions have taken place with the British Medical Association over excessive workloads suffered by GPs and how they can be supported through winter months.

James Evans asked many of my other questions that I was going to raise, and I'm grateful for the answers. But I think it would be very helpful to know whether any additional financial support is being made available to support the measures, the additional measures, that you've outlined today.

Finally, of course, it's vitally important that we keep people in warm homes to avoid the need for admission to hospitals. So, it'd be very beneficial, I think, to hear from your colleague, the Minister for social justice, in terms of any support from Welsh Government this winter to ensure that people don't suffer from cold homes. Diolch.

Thank you very much to the Member for those questions.

Thank you for those points that you raised. And it is a very important point that you raised; the thread of your contribution is about ensuring that we work cross-Government, breaking down those silos and making sure that everybody plays a role in ensuring that people have improved outcomes and are looked after over the winter. And that's a mission of this Government—that we are breaking down those silos. I made a statement to Cabinet on our winter preparedness. So, each Cabinet Member is aware of what we're doing and is taking responsibility for their role in ensuring that each department is preparing for winter. And we've got the Minister for delivery and the Deputy Minister for preventative health working across portfolios on ensuring that we deliver on these issues.

What you mentioned about the GPs—. There is an excessive workload for GPs. We know that we are below where we need to be with regard to GP numbers in Wales. There's a broader question around support for GPs, and that's why we are putting together a package to help GPs in Wales, which will include recruiting an extra 100 GPs across Wales to help alleviate the burdens and the strains that they are suffering under. But it will also include things around helping with the GP estate and ensuring that they have got the support in place to allow them to do the work that they want to do, which is looking after patients.

When it comes to extra funding, we've already made an announcement on the menB vaccinations, and that will be rolled out soon as well.

Thank you, Cabinet Minister, for your statement today. I welcome the fact, also, that the statement has been tabled well in advance, before the height of winter, and that there's talk of having a robust plan before the winter months are upon us. It's a refreshing change from the previous Government's timetable, when we got to hear about preparedness in October.

Whilst I note the Cabinet Minister's five main aims outlined in the statement for the NHS and social care plan ahead for winter pressures, we also need three fundamental things: we need workforce, we need infrastructure and we need good data. Cabinet Minister, we've heard many times from the NHS that pressures are not just in winter, they're all year round, and I appreciate that you echoed that in your statement as well.

We all know that a lack of staff across all sectors in the NHS has created untold strain on the workforce, and this has a direct impact on patient care. I note that you've mentioned health boards must sustain and support their workforce, but just last week, Healthcare Inspectorate Wales found that whilst dementia patients were treated with kindness and respect at Llandough hospital, there were poor standards of cleanliness, environmental hazards, and also weaknesses in infection prevention. The reason for this? Lack of staff.

We've seen recruitment freezes in paramedics and that half of nursing graduates are unlikely to gain employment. The Royal College of Radiologists have said that parts of Wales face some of the most severe shortages of cancer specialists anywhere in the United Kingdom, and last week, the Royal College of Nursing and the Royal College of Midwives also released damning figures that highlight the dire situation that the Welsh NHS workforce is indeed facing. For example, 306 student nurses due to graduate in September have not been allocated a position in the Welsh NHS. Even more midwives who have recently trained won't be offered a role. For example, 36 graduates in Cardiff and Vale won't get roles because midwives from last year were provided with full-time hours, due to lack of funding from the Welsh Government. Some midwives have been forced to hold down part-time jobs in hospitality to cover their costs. Frankly, this is farcical. In light of this, the Royal College of Nursing has called for immediate action, including greater transparency with workforce planning and better co-ordination between the NHS and the Welsh Government.

I really do welcome that you will publish the first-phase workforce plan in the autumn. How will you work winter pressures and preparedness into your plan, Cabinet Minister? Because I really don't want to hear about another summit having to take place after this.

On infrastructure, Cabinet Minister, your immediate reaction to genuine concerns about the crumbling NHS estate last week was to demand costings from the opposition benches. While we are seeing cases where A&Es are closing due to water-supply issues, operations are cancelled because theatres have pigeon infestations, and there are ward closures because of repeated norovirus incidents—I've raised this earlier today—what plans are you undertaking to tackle the serious and immediate concern that's right here, right now?

I know that health boards are struggling financially, as well as through the lack of staff and poor infrastructure that I've spoken upon. You have inherited an appallingly run public service from the previous Welsh Government, Minister—I can't deny that—where health boards are still not recovered from the pandemic six years ago, and all of them are in some form of Government intervention. You've mentioned the extra funding of £100 million to tackle waiting lists. However, six of seven health boards projected a deficit by the end of last March. The total projected savings health boards have to make is a grand total of £213 million, and one health board, Swansea bay, has projected a £76.6 million deficit for next year.

Cabinet Secretary, the reality is this: health boards are currently redesigning services, including downgrading and closures, to save money. How well do you think these new services will fare during the winter months? How do you think A&E services will cope this winter in areas where patients are more likely to go if they don't have any alternatives?

Cabinet Minister, another part of tackling winter pressures is data. From GP appointments and hospital referrals to prescriptions, a system that runs smoothly is needed here in Wales. However, Digital Health and Care Wales, which runs the system, is in targeted intervention and regularly crashes. According to the British Medical Association, these can be—and I'm quoting these words now—

'extraordinarily disruptive for practices and for patients...and can take hours to recover from.'

So, Cabinet Minister, in your response to our debate last week, I noticed that you mentioned the need for technology to support NHS staff. Sadly, in this case, it's just not working right now. Therefore, Cabinet Minister, as part of your planning, what immediate steps are you taking to ensure that even the basic functions of Digital Health and Care Wales are running smoothly over the winter months?

Finally, Cabinet Minister, a major driver of winter pressures is lung conditions. I note you've mentioned scenario planning for hospitals to prevent ward infection, however, as an overall point, Asthma and Lung UK Cymru have said that respiratory admissions are 40 per cent higher in winter, and over the last 20 years, hospital admissions for respiratory illnesses have doubled. Six thousand respiratory admissions are for children each winter, with one in four admissions involving a child under 10. Sadly, Cabinet Minister, many of these issues arise because basic care is lacking. Less than a quarter of adults and a third of children receive adequate care. Furthermore, these admissions have been described as avoidable and increasingly expensive, placing more burdens on our NHS here in Wales.

So, Cabinet Minister, I welcome your comments on increased vaccinations in your statement, but what messaging will your Government be giving on vaccines and prevention going forward, and will you be investing in diagnostic capacity for early intervention on respiratory conditions? Thank you.

Thank you for those points that you raised, Natasha. Dirprwy Lywydd, it's always nice to hear kind words at the beginning of every contribution, and once again, I welcome the warm words received from Natasha.

There are a couple of fundamental points in the contribution that she raised that I would align myself with, including the need to identify the workforce demands within the system. We've identified the problems in workforce planning quite clearly. That's why we've said that we will be developing the workforce plan, a comprehensive workforce plan, for the whole of the NHS, so that we are clear where staff are required, at what time, to do what. So, that high-level workforce plan will be delivered, as I said, in the early autumn, so that we can identify where those people need to be during that winter period.

But, during the contribution, the Member talked about the issue with the graduates. I don't want to repeat myself again, because I've discussed the issue around the graduate summit a number of times and how the issue with the graduates is not acceptable, but it relates to 2022, and it will take some time to work through the system. So, we are doing everything we can to work with representative bodies—Health Education and Improvement Wales and the health boards—to try and make sure that this doesn't happen again, and that as many places are found for these graduates as possible, because a promise was made to them, and we need to try and resolve the problem, which we inherited, and honour as much of those promises as possible.

Once again, the Member spoke about what we inherited, in this instance with the estate, and it's a £1.5 billion backlog. We've been clear once again that our priority is to fix the urgent parts of that backlog, and that's why, through our capital expenditure budget, we are working at pace to resolve as many of those as possible. The same applies to the tech. We saw last week, with the extreme heat that we had, some issues around diagnostics not being able to function properly because of the heat, and we know that will happen again when it comes to winter, so we have to make sure that we've got improved diagnostic systems. That's why we've announced the £20 million for improving the diagnostics, and the theatre spaces, and some of the backlog that we've got when it comes to the waiting lists, to make sure that we've got those up to date as much as possible.

And when it comes to lung infections, absolutely, you're right: it is a big problem in the winter. That's why we're working, breaking those silos down, as I mentioned earlier, working across Government with the Deputy Minister for Public and Preventative Health, working with the Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning, making sure that we have retrofitting introduced at speed. But, in the short term, we need to make sure that people with asthma have those asthma plans, that they're up to date, that they make sure that they function and that they've got the pumps that are required, so that they don't suffer in the winter.

Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. I welcome the Cabinet Minister's statement and the emphasis on planning ahead for seasonal pressures. As said, the most effective way of protecting NHS capacity is to prevent illness and hospital admissions in the first place. In my constituency of Clwyd, families are served by Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board, and so I thank the Minister for his previous statement. Like every part of Wales, the region faces significant winter pressures each year, and we know that vaccination programmes are one of the most cost-effective interventions available to reduce demand on GP practices, urgent care and hospitals.

Public Health Wales figures show that flu vaccine uptake amongst two and three-year-olds across Wales was just 43.7 per cent last winter. More than 34,000 eligible children were not vaccinated, despite young children playing a major role in the spread of flu through families and communities. Whilst Betsi Cadwaladr actively does encourage all eligible two and three-year-olds to receive the nasal spray vaccine through their GP practices, the uptake is still relatively low. Can the Minister outline what work is being undertaken with health boards and primary care to ensure capacity for the pre-school flu vaccination programme, and what additional efforts will be made to encourage parents of two and three-year-olds to take up the offer?

Some good news on what was said: the latest Public Health Wales estimates point to an uptake of 46.1 per cent for children aged two and three years, which is an increase of 2.5 per cent, alongside an estimated additional 150,000 influenza vaccinations that were given across all eligible cohorts last year, compared with the previous year.

But on the specific point that the Member raised, all health boards are developing plans to address inequality in vaccine uptake, and this includes local arrangements for delivery in nursery settings in many areas. The Welsh Government will be directing that children should be vaccinated as early as possible in September, with a concerted drive to deliver children's vaccinations by the end of November. The Welsh Government, alongside our NHS partners, is committed to continuing this positive improvement in vaccination uptake and ensuring the effective delivery of the flu programme this year.

Cabinet Minister, again, I echo my colleague's thoughts. Thank you again for your early statement and your ambitions and expectations. When you addressed the Siambr a few weeks ago, you said that the NHS had reached one of the most precarious points in its history. You promised to move beyond what you called 'short-term sticking-plaster solutions' and deliver lasting reform, and I'm sure we all value your determination.

Unfortunately, winter has developed an annoying habit of refusing to read the Government's press releases and we're all well versed in ministerial assurances that the NHS is ready, even though we won't know that until the winter readiness assessment in the autumn. Every year, we see the familiar pressures: ambulances waiting outside hospitals, emergency departments under unacceptable strain, rushed discharges and planned operations postponed. I'm sure everybody here hopes that the proposals succeed, but good intentions, ambitions and expectations don't keep ambulances moving or patients out of corridors. The test of a winter plan isn't how ambitious it sounds in June, it's whether patients notice any difference when pressure is at its highest in January.

So, Minister, how will you demonstrate that the proposals are working? What interim milestones will you use to monitor whether the winter plan is succeeding? What trigger points have you identified that would indicate the NHS is coming under unacceptable pressure, and what additional support will be deployed if those trigger points are reached? Thank you.

Thank you to the Member for those points and, yes, the NHS is in a precarious position and we've seen far too many sticking plasters applied to the NHS. What struck me when I was appointed to this role was the fact that previous Governments just had a reactive response in nature to everything and that we didn't have any long-term vision for the NHS in Wales. And that's the difference that we're introducing now: we are developing long-term plans, not just for this year, but looking at learnings to go forward for the next number of years as well. That's why we've asked to introduce that modelling that I talked about: when it comes to an influenza outbreak, COVID-19, respiratory syncytial virus, that we model them, the health boards work with NHS Wales Performance and Improvement to see the impact on their hospitals, on the bed capacity, model them in September, learn from the models, so that we are ready for when the flu outbreak or COVID-19 outbreak arrives, that they are prepared for those eventualities. I will be providing an update to the Senedd in the autumn, but I’m more than happy to provide further updates to the Member on specific issues around the data that we'll be gathering, if the Member wishes.

I congratulate you, Minister, for doing this at the height of summer, only one week after we all almost baked to death in this very same Chamber. [Laughter.] But, bed numbers. This is not so much the elephant in the room, but the mammoth in the Chamber. We have one of the lowest bed numbers in Europe, only 3.4 per 1,000 compared to an EU average of 4.3 to 4.7, which makes the physiological reserve of the system so fragile. And because of this, every winter, which again has a habit of coming once a year, we are then almost pushed over the edge because of that. And that elephant in the room is tied to social care. I despise the term 'bedblockers', because it implies some fault on patients for being in there, but people—. We hear also from the Reform side about delayed discharges, and the ultimate delayed discharge is to do with being stuck in hospital not so much for days, but for weeks and months, because of a lack of placement. In light of this, what assurances can I have from the Cabinet Minister that work is being undertaken towards a Welsh national care system? Thank you.

Dirprwy Lywydd, our first priority is understanding how we use our beds, which is the first point raised by the Member. We must have a clear shared understanding of our true bed capacity, supported by robust data and intelligence. And without a grip on that hospital flow, we can't deliver safe, timely care, and persistently high occupancy is both clinically unsustainable and a driver for harm. The evidence is clear that reducing the length of stay and safely discharging without delay is key to improving outcomes, experience and releasing our vital acute hospital capacity. So, we have to make sure that we improve the flow in our hospitals. That also means looking at the discharges, which I mentioned earlier, ensuring that we have seven-day discharge from the hospital, and making sure we work with local authorities to ensure that we've got care at home. My Deputy Minister is working at pace now to ensure that we deliver that joined-up health and social care, so that we don't have the gaps that we've got currently in the system, where people get lost and don't receive the care they deserve. We need to make sure we've got beds in the community—step-down beds—and care at home, so that we can ensure the flow of people out of hospital to improve outcomes.

Cabinet Minister, it's great to hear you use the words 'safety', 'resilience', 'robust planning' and so much more. As someone who spent many a winter in and out of hospital because of respiratory problems, I have seen first-hand what the state of Heath hospital looks like—the University Hospital of Wales, of course; we call it 'Heath' as locals here. We've continued to hear about the serious concerns about the conditions that have been raised by staff, by unions, by the public, and, of course, we've all seen the holes in the ceilings and the buckets catching the rain. And, of course, staff have often talked about how difficult it is to manoeuvre people around the hospital because the lifts are out of service.

I recognise that rebuilding can't happen before this winter, but can you give us some reassurance that you will focus on resilience and patient safety and that you accept that the current condition of the Heath hospital presents a growing risk to the public? Will you confirm that rebuilding is absolutely necessary and set out what concrete steps your Government will be taking to make sure that that happens?

The issue of the state of the Heath has been raised a number of times in this Siambr, and I agree, it is in a poor state, in as much as we need to see improvements there happen quickly. That's why we are concentrating on ensuring that that urgent backlog is fixed. Because, sadly, the issues at the Heath aren't unique, and they don't only apply to the Heath.

Probably the worst condition that we've got in hospitals in Wales is in Glangwili at the moment. But if you look at north Wales, we've got issues in north Wales as well, as well as in Aneurin Bevan, and across the estate. We need to make sure that every hospital is fit to receive patients and that patients can get the best treatment they can. That's why we're concentrating on that backlog, as I said.

With regard to the redevelopment of the Heath, as things stand, we've not received a plan from the health board to ask for redevelopment. Until something like that comes forward, there's no plan put forward.

Thank you to the Cabinet Secretary for his statement today.

I'm glad to see this statement made so early, because, as mentioned, the previous Welsh Government didn't make this type of statement until October, by which point winter was already around the corner. Cabinet Minister, we can't talk about winter preparedness without talking about fuel poverty, as the two go hand in hand. Around 340,000 households in Wales—one in four—are in fuel poverty. And tomorrow, it gets worse. Ofgem is raising the energy price cap by 13 per cent, which will add £18 a month to the average bill. For hundreds of thousands of people in Wales, that's money they simply don't have. And when people can't heat their homes, they get sick. They end up in our hospitals, placing pressure on health services already stretched every winter. So, Cabinet Minister, what will the Government do to make sure no-one in Wales has to choose between heating their homes and their health?

The message is perfectly clear from the Member—nobody should have to choose between heating their homes and safeguarding their health. Ensuring that this Government works across departments to ensure that it improves outcomes for people's health is at the heart of our mission. That's why the First Minister has appointed a Deputy Minister with responsibility for preventing ill health and public health, working with the different Ministers on these benches, for example the Minister for housing and planning on improving housing quality by increasing retrofit. We will also be introducing targeted plans, public health interventions that are effective, and better integration between health, social care and energy support, to support as many people as possible to remain warm, healthy and safe.

Thank you very much, Llywydd, and thank you for the statement.

It's really great to hear so much talked about in relation to social care. That really is going to help us if we can get people out of hospital, but also stop them from going in in the first place. Because we know that last Christmas 558 in Wales spent that time in hospital when they were clinically ready to go home. That meant hundreds of people were not with their families at Christmas just because they couldn't get social care. And as we've heard, the figures haven't moved significantly. So I'm really pleased to hear that there is going to be a focus on social care.

But I wonder if I could ask you, Gweinidog, if that's all right, about community hospitals and community beds. In rural areas, we know they're so important in order to get people out of those acute wards, help them to have an opportunity to get rehabilitation in those community beds, and to go home. So, can I just seek your assurance that there are no plans to reduce the number of community beds or to reduce the capacity in our community hospitals? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you very much to the Member for that question. It's quite right to say that we need to focus on social care and ensure that we have that provision so that people can leave hospitals. When it comes to bed numbers, we have committed, as I mentioned, to look at the bed capacity within the entire system in order to identify the need, where those beds are needed. When it comes to the community, I've been quite clear that the provision of step-down services, for example, to help people between that time in hospital being treated and returning home, is an important part of the health provision we have. It's not for everyone. The hope is to get as many people home as possible, and to ensure that we can provide care at home. But for those who need care that's a little more intensive, they need that step-down service in our community, and we're looking at that as part of the solution.